Toepen
John McLeod
I was recently sent a question about a situation in the Dutch drinking
game Toepen to which I don't know the answer.
There are three players A, B and C, and it is the last trick. Player A
has the diamond 7, player B has the heart 9 and player C has the heart
10. Player A leads the D7 and then player B knocks. Player A folds but
player C stays in. Who wins and why? Or do all three players lose?
Any views?
You might reasonably argue that C ought to have folded, not having a
diamond, but it is a drinking game after all, and maybe C imagined A's
diamond was a heart.
--
John McLeod For information on card games visit
jo...@pagat.demon.co.uk http://www.pagat.com/
Star
>I was recently sent a question about a situation in the Dutch drinking
>game Toepen to which I don't know the answer.
>
>There are three players A, B and C, and it is the last trick. Player A
>has the diamond 7, player B has the heart 9 and player C has the heart
>10. Player A leads the D7 and then player B knocks. Player A folds but
>player C stays in. Who wins and why? Or do all three players lose?
>
>Any views?
>
>You might reasonably argue that C ought to have folded, not having a
>diamond, but it is a drinking game after all, and maybe C imagined A's
>diamond was a heart.
John,
If you take it one step at the time, it's very simple.
When Mr. B knocks, Mr. A folds and gets one point. Mr. A exit.
(Should Mr.C fold too, he gets a point too, and B is in the clear. )
However, Mr. C stays and Mr. B has to show his card. It doesn't beat
the D7 so he loses and gets 2 points. Mr. B exit.
Mr. C has show his card now, and also get 2 because he doesn't beat
the D7 either. Mr. C exit.
He can't knock any more, because there's noboby to call, since A
folded and B didn't beat the D7. So indeed, we have three losers!!
Hope this is clear for you ?
CU, Maarten.
luk...@null.net
On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:17:19 +0000, John McLeod <jo...@pagat.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I was recently sent a question about a situation in the Dutch drinking
> game Toepen to which I don't know the answer.
>
> There are three players A, B and C, and it is the last trick. Player A
> has the diamond 7, player B has the heart 9 and player C has the heart
> 10. Player A leads the D7 and then player B knocks. Player A folds but
> player C stays in. Who wins and why? Or do all three players lose?
>
> Any views?
>
> You might reasonably argue that C ought to have folded, not having a
> diamond, but it is a drinking game after all, and maybe C imagined A's
> diamond was a heart.
Hmm, this is a tricky situation, not provided for in the rules I
know. This situation calls for an extention of the rules.
I think this case should be handled like this, staying true to the
nature of the game:
In my opinion, player A should not be allowed to win because
he folded. A pays the unraised amount of one point.
Player B should not be allowed to win, too. By toepen, he B is
announcing that he thinks that he can win the last trick.
Since he doesn't, he has to pay the raised amount of two points.
All the other players, C or maybe a D (holding e.g. a club) should
pay the unraised amount of one point.
That way, the risk B has taken for himself is balanced by the possibilty
of a greater loss for him than for the other players.
Remark: According to my experience with Tuppen, nobody ever declined
a raise on the last trick, because, as you said -- it's a drinking game.
Christian Joachim Hartmann <luk...@Null.net>
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Nick Wedd
In article <v21RbbAP...@pagat.demon.co.uk>, John McLeod
<jo...@pagat.demon.co.uk> writes
>I was recently sent a question about a situation in the Dutch drinking
>game Toepen to which I don't know the answer.
>
>There are three players A, B and C, and it is the last trick. Player A
>has the diamond 7, player B has the heart 9 and player C has the heart
>10. Player A leads the D7 and then player B knocks. Player A folds but
>player C stays in. Who wins and why? Or do all three players lose?
>
>Any views?
>
>You might reasonably argue that C ought to have folded, not having a
>diamond, but it is a drinking game after all, and maybe C imagined A's
>diamond was a heart.
A folded, so he loses one point.
B and C stayed in, but failed to win the last trick, so they each lose
two points.
It must be unusual for everyone to lose on a hand of toepen, but I don't
see this as a problem.
Nick
--
Nick Wedd ni...@maproom.demon.co.uk
Nick Wedd
In article <34f32ab9...@news.worldonline.nl>, Star
<sec...@mail.me> writes
>>has the diamond 7, player B has the heart 9 and player C has the heart
>>10. Player A leads the D7 and then player B knocks. Player A folds but
>>player C stays in. Who wins and why? Or do all three players lose?
>>
>If you take it one step at the time, it's very simple.
>When Mr. B knocks, Mr. A folds and gets one point. Mr. A exit.
>
>(Should Mr.C fold too, he gets a point too, and B is in the clear. )
>
>However, Mr. C stays and Mr. B has to show his card. It doesn't beat
>the D7 so he loses and gets 2 points. Mr. B exit.
>
>Mr. C has show his card now, and also get 2 because he doesn't beat
>the D7 either. Mr. C exit.
>He can't knock any more, because there's noboby to call, since A
>folded and B didn't beat the D7. So indeed, we have three losers!!
This is clear to me, and I think it is a very good answer. I agree with
it.
But it raises another question:
There are four players A, B, C and D, and it is the last trick. Player A
has the diamond 7, player B has the heart 9, and players C and D both
have small clubs. Player A leads the D7 and then player B knocks.
Player A folds but players C and D stay in. What happens next?
One answer:
Mr. B plays his card. It doesn't beat the D7 so he loses and gets 2
points. Mr. C and Mr. D could then play quietly, and each lose 2
points also. But Mr. C knocks, Mr. D folds, and Mr. C points out that
he has caused everyone else (of those still in) to fold, and is
therefore the winner.
This seems odd. In the first case, Mr. C was the only undefeated
player, but was forced to play his card and accept defeat also. In the
second case, the presence of the foolish Mr. D allowed Mr. C to knock
and then claim to have won, without showing his card.
What do you think, Maarten?
John McLeod
Nick Wedd <Ni...@maproom.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>There are four players A, B, C and D, and it is the last trick. Player A
>has the diamond 7, player B has the heart 9, and players C and D both
>have small clubs. Player A leads the D7 and then player B knocks.
>Player A folds but players C and D stay in. What happens next?
>
>One answer:
>Mr. B plays his card. It doesn't beat the D7 so he loses and gets 2
>points. Mr. C and Mr. D could then play quietly, and each lose 2
>points also. But Mr. C knocks, Mr. D folds, and Mr. C points out that
>he has caused everyone else (of those still in) to fold, and is
>therefore the winner.
Yes, I think that's right. A gets one point, B and D get two and C gets
none.
>
>This seems odd. In the first case, Mr. C was the only undefeated
>player, but was forced to play his card and accept defeat also. In the
>second case, the presence of the foolish Mr. D allowed Mr. C to knock
>and then claim to have won, without showing his card.
>
>What do you think, Maarten?
Maarten has not responded as far as I can tell, but I think this is
right. It is really not much different from the 3 player problem. If B
knocked and A and C folded, B would win, without showing his card. So if
B is much nearer to losing than C it may actually be rational for C to
stay in on B's knock, so as to expose B's bluff.
Star
>Nick Wedd <Ni...@maproom.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>There are four players A, B, C and D, and it is the last trick. Player A
>>has the diamond 7, player B has the heart 9, and players C and D both
>>have small clubs. Player A leads the D7 and then player B knocks.
>>Player A folds but players C and D stay in. What happens next?
>>
>>One answer:
>>Mr. B plays his card. It doesn't beat the D7 so he loses and gets 2
>>points. Mr. C and Mr. D could then play quietly, and each lose 2
>>points also. But Mr. C knocks, Mr. D folds, and Mr. C points out that
>>he has caused everyone else (of those still in) to fold, and is
>>therefore the winner.
>
>Yes, I think that's right. A gets one point, B and D get two and C gets
>none.
>>
>>This seems odd. In the first case, Mr. C was the only undefeated
>>player, but was forced to play his card and accept defeat also. In the
>>second case, the presence of the foolish Mr. D allowed Mr. C to knock
>>and then claim to have won, without showing his card.
>>
>>What do you think, Maarten?
>
>Maarten has not responded as far as I can tell,
Sorry, I wasn't paying attention for a second here...
>but I think this is
>right. It is really not much different from the 3 player problem. If B
>knocked and A and C folded, B would win, without showing his card. So if
>B is much nearer to losing than C it may actually be rational for C to
>stay in on B's knock, so as to expose B's bluff.
I agree with all of the above. The great fun of Toepen is that, if you
have enough to drink and a poker face, you can win on the last knock,
even if the cards you have are worthless!!!
I disagree with Christian Hartmann, (Hi CJ!) who also answerd. He says
that the knocker takes all the risk and should get 2 points, and
who-ever sits behind him only 1, but that is not correct, because they
take a risk by not folding!!
CU
Maarten.