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TECH: Gottlieb System80B CPU (Z13 & Z15)
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David Gersic
Aug 16, 2014, 11:28:40 PM8/16/14
to
I'm working on a Chicago Cubs for a friend. It's currently dead, not
booting, no signs of life. I found that Z13 was blown apart, and Z15
was cracked. I've replaced Z13 with a 74LS00, but I don't have a
7432 here. I *do* have a 74HC32, but Ed says that Z15 can't be swapped
with anything but a 7432. He doesn't say why, or what will happen if
I use a 74HC32 here. Anybody know?
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| Here lies Thomas J. Watson, 9 edge down. |
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |
booting, no signs of life. I found that Z13 was blown apart, and Z15
was cracked. I've replaced Z13 with a 74LS00, but I don't have a
7432 here. I *do* have a 74HC32, but Ed says that Z15 can't be swapped
with anything but a 7432. He doesn't say why, or what will happen if
I use a 74HC32 here. Anybody know?
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| Here lies Thomas J. Watson, 9 edge down. |
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |
Dan Beck
Aug 17, 2014, 12:49:32 AM8/17/14
to
Hi David,
I have no idea. My guess is, there is some subtle difference with the HC series of chips (speed, current/voltage capacity, etc.) that is way beyond my understanding that MAY prevent the board from booting. It may very well NOT, and the board may work fine. In my view the biggest risk you have is you may toast the Z13 or Z15 chips you just replaced. Please remember that these chips, in the words of Steve Charland, are TTL 'fuses' for the 6532 RIOT chips... Socket those chips (you probably already know that...), and see what happens with power up.
Regards,
Dan
I have no idea. My guess is, there is some subtle difference with the HC series of chips (speed, current/voltage capacity, etc.) that is way beyond my understanding that MAY prevent the board from booting. It may very well NOT, and the board may work fine. In my view the biggest risk you have is you may toast the Z13 or Z15 chips you just replaced. Please remember that these chips, in the words of Steve Charland, are TTL 'fuses' for the 6532 RIOT chips... Socket those chips (you probably already know that...), and see what happens with power up.
Regards,
Dan
John Robertson
Aug 17, 2014, 3:21:32 AM8/17/14
to
On 08/16/2014 8:28 PM, David Gersic wrote:
> I'm working on a Chicago Cubs for a friend. It's currently dead, not
> booting, no signs of life. I found that Z13 was blown apart, and Z15
> was cracked. I've replaced Z13 with a 74LS00, but I don't have a
> 7432 here. I *do* have a 74HC32, but Ed says that Z15 can't be swapped
> with anything but a 7432. He doesn't say why, or what will happen if
> I use a 74HC32 here. Anybody know?
>
>
The HC stands for High speed CMOS - it won't hurt the board to use it to
> I'm working on a Chicago Cubs for a friend. It's currently dead, not
> booting, no signs of life. I found that Z13 was blown apart, and Z15
> was cracked. I've replaced Z13 with a 74LS00, but I don't have a
> 7432 here. I *do* have a 74HC32, but Ed says that Z15 can't be swapped
> with anything but a 7432. He doesn't say why, or what will happen if
> I use a 74HC32 here. Anybody know?
>
>
test the MPU repair, however for proper operation you will need to get a
7432 so there is sufficient drive current so the MPU will be reliable.
The game will not be reliable as a result of the lower drive
characteristics as well as the CMOS vs TTL voltage level state changes
of the CMOS device 74HC32. Don't trust the switch readings until you
replace the 74HC32 with a 7432.
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
c...@provide.net
Aug 17, 2014, 8:01:56 AM8/17/14
to
yea what John said. basically the drive portion of
the HC chips is much lower than the TTL versions.
but as john said, test the board (get it running)
with your HC chip. But get the real-deal after you
have it running. Ed is a bit anal about the use
of 74/74S/74F/74LS/74HC variants. In the real world
you can sometimes "cheat" on these. But in the end,
if you want consistency, Ed's advice is correct.
and since sys80 games are generally pretty inconsistent,
not a bad idea to listen to Ed in the end.
the HC chips is much lower than the TTL versions.
but as john said, test the board (get it running)
with your HC chip. But get the real-deal after you
have it running. Ed is a bit anal about the use
of 74/74S/74F/74LS/74HC variants. In the real world
you can sometimes "cheat" on these. But in the end,
if you want consistency, Ed's advice is correct.
and since sys80 games are generally pretty inconsistent,
not a bad idea to listen to Ed in the end.
David Gersic
Aug 17, 2014, 8:44:31 AM8/17/14
to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 21:49:32 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> I have no idea. My guess is, there is some subtle difference with the HC series of chips (speed, current/voltage capacity, etc.) that is way beyond my understanding that MAY prevent the board from booting. It may very well NOT, and the board may work fine. In my view the biggest risk you have is you may toast the Z13 or Z15 chips you just replaced. Please remember that these chips, in the words of Steve Charland, are TTL 'fuses' for the 6532 RIOT chips... Socket those chips (you probably already know that...), and see what happens with power up.
Given the damage to Z13 and Z15, I'm concerned about the switch matrix
> Hi David,
>
> I have no idea. My guess is, there is some subtle difference with the HC series of chips (speed, current/voltage capacity, etc.) that is way beyond my understanding that MAY prevent the board from booting. It may very well NOT, and the board may work fine. In my view the biggest risk you have is you may toast the Z13 or Z15 chips you just replaced. Please remember that these chips, in the words of Steve Charland, are TTL 'fuses' for the 6532 RIOT chips... Socket those chips (you probably already know that...), and see what happens with power up.
RIOT being damaged as well. I don't have any 6532s here, 'cause I don't
normally work on Gottlieb games. Doing the work, no problem, I just have
to order parts that guys that do Gottliebs would have on hand.
| Does "MicroSoft" mean "small and limp"? |
David Gersic
Aug 17, 2014, 8:49:07 AM8/17/14
to
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 00:21:32 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> wrote:
> On 08/16/2014 8:28 PM, David Gersic wrote:
>> I'm working on a Chicago Cubs for a friend. It's currently dead, not
>> booting, no signs of life. I found that Z13 was blown apart, and Z15
>> was cracked. I've replaced Z13 with a 74LS00, but I don't have a
>> 7432 here. I *do* have a 74HC32, but Ed says that Z15 can't be swapped
>> with anything but a 7432. He doesn't say why, or what will happen if
>> I use a 74HC32 here. Anybody know?
>>
>>
>
> The HC stands for High speed CMOS - it won't hurt the board to use it to
> test the MPU repair, however for proper operation you will need to get a
> 7432 so there is sufficient drive current so the MPU will be reliable.
>
> The game will not be reliable as a result of the lower drive
> characteristics as well as the CMOS vs TTL voltage level state changes
> of the CMOS device 74HC32. Don't trust the switch readings until you
> replace the 74HC32 with a 7432.
Ok, so it should be good enough for testing to see what else may need
> On 08/16/2014 8:28 PM, David Gersic wrote:
>> I'm working on a Chicago Cubs for a friend. It's currently dead, not
>> booting, no signs of life. I found that Z13 was blown apart, and Z15
>> was cracked. I've replaced Z13 with a 74LS00, but I don't have a
>> 7432 here. I *do* have a 74HC32, but Ed says that Z15 can't be swapped
>> with anything but a 7432. He doesn't say why, or what will happen if
>> I use a 74HC32 here. Anybody know?
>>
>>
>
> The HC stands for High speed CMOS - it won't hurt the board to use it to
> test the MPU repair, however for proper operation you will need to get a
> 7432 so there is sufficient drive current so the MPU will be reliable.
>
> The game will not be reliable as a result of the lower drive
> characteristics as well as the CMOS vs TTL voltage level state changes
> of the CMOS device 74HC32. Don't trust the switch readings until you
> replace the 74HC32 with a 7432.
replacing. Thanks John.
| PENTIUM: Processor Errors Numbering Thousands In Users Machines |
David Gersic
Aug 17, 2014, 8:50:17 AM8/17/14
to
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 05:01:56 -0700 (PDT), c...@provide.net <c...@provide.net> wrote:
> yea what John said. basically the drive portion of
> the HC chips is much lower than the TTL versions.
> but as john said, test the board (get it running)
> with your HC chip. But get the real-deal after you
> have it running. Ed is a bit anal about the use
> of 74/74S/74F/74LS/74HC variants. In the real world
> you can sometimes "cheat" on these. But in the end,
> if you want consistency, Ed's advice is correct.
> and since sys80 games are generally pretty inconsistent,
> not a bad idea to listen to Ed in the end.
Oh, I'm listening, but I like to know why it's true.
> yea what John said. basically the drive portion of
> the HC chips is much lower than the TTL versions.
> but as john said, test the board (get it running)
> with your HC chip. But get the real-deal after you
> have it running. Ed is a bit anal about the use
> of 74/74S/74F/74LS/74HC variants. In the real world
> you can sometimes "cheat" on these. But in the end,
> if you want consistency, Ed's advice is correct.
> and since sys80 games are generally pretty inconsistent,
> not a bad idea to listen to Ed in the end.
| Amiga multitasking - Can act as a paper weight AND a door stop |
Dan Beck
Aug 17, 2014, 10:13:39 AM8/17/14
to
Good morning David,
indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
Regards,
Dan
indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
Regards,
Dan
John Robertson
Aug 17, 2014, 12:54:06 PM8/17/14
to
On 08/17/2014 5:50 AM, David Gersic wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 05:01:56 -0700 (PDT), c...@provide.net <c...@provide.net> wrote:
>> yea what John said. basically the drive portion of
>> the HC chips is much lower than the TTL versions.
>> but as john said, test the board (get it running)
>> with your HC chip. But get the real-deal after you
>> have it running. Ed is a bit anal about the use
>> of 74/74S/74F/74LS/74HC variants. In the real world
>> you can sometimes "cheat" on these. But in the end,
>> if you want consistency, Ed's advice is correct.
>> and since sys80 games are generally pretty inconsistent,
>> not a bad idea to listen to Ed in the end.
>
> Oh, I'm listening, but I like to know why it's true.
>
>
You need to understand the difference between TTL and CMOS logic levels
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 05:01:56 -0700 (PDT), c...@provide.net <c...@provide.net> wrote:
>> yea what John said. basically the drive portion of
>> the HC chips is much lower than the TTL versions.
>> but as john said, test the board (get it running)
>> with your HC chip. But get the real-deal after you
>> have it running. Ed is a bit anal about the use
>> of 74/74S/74F/74LS/74HC variants. In the real world
>> you can sometimes "cheat" on these. But in the end,
>> if you want consistency, Ed's advice is correct.
>> and since sys80 games are generally pretty inconsistent,
>> not a bad idea to listen to Ed in the end.
>
> Oh, I'm listening, but I like to know why it's true.
>
>
and drive current.
Basically the original TTL 74XX family will drive ten gates.
The 74LSXX family will drive ten 74LSXX gates or ONE (1) 74XX gate reliably.
74HCXX will drive ten 74HCXX gates or maybe one or two 74XX/74LSXX gates
- not reliable. You need 74HCTXX to interface easily with TTL logic
levels - the "T" is for "TTL". But even that doesn't interface well to
regular TTL.
Here is a good logic levels voltage chart that shows what the devices
need to change for Zero to One and back:
http://www.interfacebus.com/voltage_threshold.html
Search "TTL vs CMOS" for more info.
John Robertson
Aug 17, 2014, 12:56:54 PM8/17/14
to
On 08/17/2014 5:44 AM, David Gersic wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 21:49:32 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi David,
>>
>> I have no idea. My guess is, there is some subtle difference with the HC series of chips (speed, current/voltage capacity, etc.) that is way beyond my understanding that MAY prevent the board from booting. It may very well NOT, and the board may work fine. In my view the biggest risk you have is you may toast the Z13 or Z15 chips you just replaced. Please remember that these chips, in the words of Steve Charland, are TTL 'fuses' for the 6532 RIOT chips... Socket those chips (you probably already know that...), and see what happens with power up.
>
> Given the damage to Z13 and Z15, I'm concerned about the switch matrix
> RIOT being damaged as well. I don't have any 6532s here, 'cause I don't
> normally work on Gottlieb games. Doing the work, no problem, I just have
> to order parts that guys that do Gottliebs would have on hand.
>
Use your digital voltmeter on the Diode Test to see if the gates on the
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 21:49:32 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi David,
>>
>> I have no idea. My guess is, there is some subtle difference with the HC series of chips (speed, current/voltage capacity, etc.) that is way beyond my understanding that MAY prevent the board from booting. It may very well NOT, and the board may work fine. In my view the biggest risk you have is you may toast the Z13 or Z15 chips you just replaced. Please remember that these chips, in the words of Steve Charland, are TTL 'fuses' for the 6532 RIOT chips... Socket those chips (you probably already know that...), and see what happens with power up.
>
> Given the damage to Z13 and Z15, I'm concerned about the switch matrix
> RIOT being damaged as well. I don't have any 6532s here, 'cause I don't
> normally work on Gottlieb games. Doing the work, no problem, I just have
> to order parts that guys that do Gottliebs would have on hand.
>
6532 are damaged:
http://www.flippers.com/service.html#diode
If any of the I/O (Input/Output) pins are way off, and the devices
downstream are disconnected/removed then the IC may well be bad. Remove
from the circuit and retest on the bench.
GPE
Aug 17, 2014, 2:54:26 PM8/17/14
to
"David Gersic" wrote in message news:lsp7h8$9cv$1...@dont-email.me...
At the time I wrote about subbing System 80 parts, I did not consider
74F32's or 74S32's.
Couple of reasons to use something other than the 74HC32:
1 -- the HC part expects inputs (both VIH or input high level voltage and
VIL or input low level voltage) in the CMOS range. Z12 and Z33 are standard
TTL devices and cannot guarantee to put out CMOS compatible levels.
2 -- Each output of Z15 must be capable of driving 8 closed switches:
Each switch tied to VCC through diode with about a 0.7V drop plus a 4.7K
resistor. Each switch current = (5-0.7) / 4700 ~= 1mA (plus a little due
to Z13 and Z14 IOL input currents and minus a little due to 74HC32's VOL
being about 0.3V).
8 switches on one column can be closed so each output must sink
approximately 8mA. A 74HC32 is designed to sink only 4mA.
A 74LS32 can sink 8mA but that puts you right at the rated limit of the
part. Would probably be ok as most of these don't have entire columns
switched. 7432's are obsolete so a 74F32 or 74S32 would give you tons of
umph to pull the sensed lines low.
Ed
David Gersic
Aug 17, 2014, 9:26:59 PM8/17/14
to
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 07:13:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good morning David,
>
> indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
Not yet, no. So far, what I've done is swap z13 and z15, since they were
> Good morning David,
>
> indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
both obviously bad. Power up, no signs of life. I need to get a 7432 for
z15, but if it should at least boot with the 74hc32 in there, that's
good enough for now.
Looking over the schematics today, it looks like z12 could also have been
affected, and it's involved with the ROM addressing. I'm thinking about
replacing it, too, before I get out the 'scope and start looking for signs
of life.
I don't have a Quickscan80, no.
|I have become Death, the Shatterer of Worlds. J. Oppenheimer 16 July 1945|
David Gersic
Aug 17, 2014, 9:32:53 PM8/17/14
to
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 13:54:26 -0500, GPE <GPE_NoSp...@cox.net> wrote:
> At the time I wrote about subbing System 80 parts, I did not consider
> 74F32's or 74S32's.
> Couple of reasons to use something other than the 74HC32:
> 1 -- the HC part expects inputs (both VIH or input high level voltage and
> VIL or input low level voltage) in the CMOS range. Z12 and Z33 are standard
> TTL devices and cannot guarantee to put out CMOS compatible levels.
> 2 -- Each output of Z15 must be capable of driving 8 closed switches:
> Each switch tied to VCC through diode with about a 0.7V drop plus a 4.7K
> resistor. Each switch current = (5-0.7) / 4700 ~= 1mA (plus a little due
> to Z13 and Z14 IOL input currents and minus a little due to 74HC32's VOL
> being about 0.3V).
> 8 switches on one column can be closed so each output must sink
> approximately 8mA. A 74HC32 is designed to sink only 4mA.
Ok, that makes sense. So a 74hc32 at z13 should allow the board to boot,
> At the time I wrote about subbing System 80 parts, I did not consider
> 74F32's or 74S32's.
> Couple of reasons to use something other than the 74HC32:
> 1 -- the HC part expects inputs (both VIH or input high level voltage and
> VIL or input low level voltage) in the CMOS range. Z12 and Z33 are standard
> TTL devices and cannot guarantee to put out CMOS compatible levels.
> 2 -- Each output of Z15 must be capable of driving 8 closed switches:
> Each switch tied to VCC through diode with about a 0.7V drop plus a 4.7K
> resistor. Each switch current = (5-0.7) / 4700 ~= 1mA (plus a little due
> to Z13 and Z14 IOL input currents and minus a little due to 74HC32's VOL
> being about 0.3V).
> 8 switches on one column can be closed so each output must sink
> approximately 8mA. A 74HC32 is designed to sink only 4mA.
but the switch matrix may be unreliable, because the 74hc32 can't sink
enough current to driver it correctly. It'll probably work well enough for
the switch matrix test and testing one switch at a time, but in game play
with multiple switches closed it may be flakey.
> A 74LS32 can sink 8mA but that puts you right at the rated limit of the
> part. Would probably be ok as most of these don't have entire columns
> switched. 7432's are obsolete so a 74F32 or 74S32 would give you tons of
> umph to pull the sensed lines low.
| Twenty Percent of Zero is Better than Nothing. -- Walt Kelly |
David Gersic
Aug 17, 2014, 10:01:05 PM8/17/14
to
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 13:54:26 -0500, GPE <GPE_NoSp...@cox.net> wrote:
> A 74LS32 can sink 8mA but that puts you right at the rated limit of the
> part. Would probably be ok as most of these don't have entire columns
> switched.
I dug around in my parts stash, and found a few 54ls32 and a single 74ls32.
> part. Would probably be ok as most of these don't have entire columns
> switched.
I'll put the 74ls32 in for now.
| Our pledge to you: Absolutely no Barney songs in this newsgroup. |
David Gersic
Aug 17, 2014, 10:39:33 PM8/17/14
to
On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 01:26:59 +0000 (UTC), David Gersic <usenet_s...@zaccaria-pinball.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 07:13:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good morning David,
>>
>> indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
>
> Not yet, no. So far, what I've done is swap z13 and z15, since they were
> both obviously bad. Power up, no signs of life. I need to get a 7432 for
> z15, but if it should at least boot with the 74hc32 in there, that's
> good enough for now.
I swapped z15 with a 74ls32, and z12 with a 7404. That didn't help. There's
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 07:13:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good morning David,
>>
>> indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
>
> Not yet, no. So far, what I've done is swap z13 and z15, since they were
> both obviously bad. Power up, no signs of life. I need to get a 7432 for
> z15, but if it should at least boot with the 74hc32 in there, that's
> good enough for now.
still no signs of life.
On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532.
Putting my scope on U1 pin 37, there's no activity here either. There is a
clock pulse at z3 pin 6. So now I'm wondering just how far the damage goes.
I know that z13 and z15 and u4 were bad. If z13 / z15 didn't keep u4 from
being damaged, then it's possible that the address or data bus could have
been hit, taking out possibly u1, z5, u5 and u6. u1 is acting like it might
be dead, and I don't have any of those on hand.
I'm starting to think that this one is beyond my current spare parts and
time to deal with. I'm sure I can figure it out, eventually, but I'm
thinking it might be faster at this point to turn it over to somebody that
is used to working on System80 boards. Who's good these days for Sys80
work?
| IMHO: Intellectualls Must Hold Office...? |
John Robertson
Aug 18, 2014, 12:21:14 AM8/18/14
to
On 08/17/2014 7:39 PM, David Gersic wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 01:26:59 +0000 (UTC), David Gersic <usenet_s...@zaccaria-pinball.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 07:13:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Good morning David,
>>>
>>> indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
>>
>> Not yet, no. So far, what I've done is swap z13 and z15, since they were
>> both obviously bad. Power up, no signs of life. I need to get a 7432 for
>> z15, but if it should at least boot with the 74hc32 in there, that's
>> good enough for now.
>
> I swapped z15 with a 74ls32, and z12 with a 7404. That didn't help. There's
> still no signs of life.
>
> On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
> magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532.
This is a very bad sign. That much over-voltage hitting the 6532 means
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 01:26:59 +0000 (UTC), David Gersic <usenet_s...@zaccaria-pinball.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 07:13:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Good morning David,
>>>
>>> indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
>>
>> Not yet, no. So far, what I've done is swap z13 and z15, since they were
>> both obviously bad. Power up, no signs of life. I need to get a 7432 for
>> z15, but if it should at least boot with the 74hc32 in there, that's
>> good enough for now.
>
> I swapped z15 with a 74ls32, and z12 with a 7404. That didn't help. There's
> still no signs of life.
>
> On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
> magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532.
other ICs on the bus may also be blown - like your CPU, other 6532s,
Eprom, and 5101.
Might be better off with another MPU...if you have a Fluke 9010 with a
6502 pod then you could do more checking without simply shotgunning parts.
John :-#(#
>
> Putting my scope on U1 pin 37, there's no activity here either. There is a
> clock pulse at z3 pin 6. So now I'm wondering just how far the damage goes.
>
> I know that z13 and z15 and u4 were bad. If z13 / z15 didn't keep u4 from
> being damaged, then it's possible that the address or data bus could have
> been hit, taking out possibly u1, z5, u5 and u6. u1 is acting like it might
> be dead, and I don't have any of those on hand.
>
> I'm starting to think that this one is beyond my current spare parts and
> time to deal with. I'm sure I can figure it out, eventually, but I'm
> thinking it might be faster at this point to turn it over to somebody that
> is used to working on System80 boards. Who's good these days for Sys80
> work?
>
>
--
c...@provide.net
Aug 18, 2014, 6:56:52 AM8/18/14
to
Another thing to remember when you're working on this...
minimize the system. use the HC parts but have the driver
board/switches disconnected from the CPU board. you don't
need the driver board at this point. The only connectors
needed are the power (left side) and the two score display
connectors (right side.) If you have the slam mode done
to the CPU board, you don't need anything along the
bottom edge of the CPU board. This is the best way to
test the board without the switch matrix or driver
board connected, minimizing any conflicts.
after you get it running then you can change to
74 or 74s/f parts, and connect the rest of the 'stuff'.
minimize the system. use the HC parts but have the driver
board/switches disconnected from the CPU board. you don't
need the driver board at this point. The only connectors
needed are the power (left side) and the two score display
connectors (right side.) If you have the slam mode done
to the CPU board, you don't need anything along the
bottom edge of the CPU board. This is the best way to
test the board without the switch matrix or driver
board connected, minimizing any conflicts.
after you get it running then you can change to
74 or 74s/f parts, and connect the rest of the 'stuff'.
Pinballed
Aug 18, 2014, 2:41:36 PM8/18/14
to
On my genesis U4. Z11 thru 14 all would continuously fry because they were getting voltage jumping over at the lane change flipper stack switch. You're welcome...I posted the fix in the archives years ago. Chances are if that's the problem all the cpus in the world won't fix it. Will work with fresh chips...for about a day..then pop pop. Hmm weirdness etc.
Good luck
Good luck
David Gersic
Aug 18, 2014, 10:15:17 PM8/18/14
to
On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:41:36 -0700 (PDT), Pinballed <proba...@live.ca> wrote:
> On my genesis U4. Z11 thru 14 all would continuously fry because they were getting voltage jumping over at the lane change flipper stack switch. You're welcome...I posted the fix in the archives years ago. Chances are if that's the problem all the cpus in the world won't fix it. Will work with fresh chips...for about a day..then pop pop. Hmm weirdness etc.
Zaccaria built some games with a stacked high voltage EOS and low voltage
> On my genesis U4. Z11 thru 14 all would continuously fry because they were getting voltage jumping over at the lane change flipper stack switch. You're welcome...I posted the fix in the archives years ago. Chances are if that's the problem all the cpus in the world won't fix it. Will work with fresh chips...for about a day..then pop pop. Hmm weirdness etc.
switch matrix on the flipper mechs, so I've seen that happen before. I
don't think Chicago Cubs has a lane change feature, though, there's no
stacked switch for it.
| Anagram: A Decimal Point = I'm a Dot in Place |
David Gersic
Aug 18, 2014, 10:16:30 PM8/18/14
to
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:21:14 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> wrote:
> On 08/17/2014 7:39 PM, David Gersic wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 01:26:59 +0000 (UTC), David Gersic <usenet_s...@zaccaria-pinball.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 07:13:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Good morning David,
>>>>
>>>> indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
>>>
>>> Not yet, no. So far, what I've done is swap z13 and z15, since they were
>>> both obviously bad. Power up, no signs of life. I need to get a 7432 for
>>> z15, but if it should at least boot with the 74hc32 in there, that's
>>> good enough for now.
>>
>> I swapped z15 with a 74ls32, and z12 with a 7404. That didn't help. There's
>> still no signs of life.
>>
>> On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
>> magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532.
>
> This is a very bad sign. That much over-voltage hitting the 6532 means
> other ICs on the bus may also be blown - like your CPU, other 6532s,
> Eprom, and 5101.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking at this point.
> On 08/17/2014 7:39 PM, David Gersic wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 01:26:59 +0000 (UTC), David Gersic <usenet_s...@zaccaria-pinball.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 07:13:39 -0700 (PDT), Dan Beck <djbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Good morning David,
>>>>
>>>> indeed the U5 RIOT may have taken a hit, but please do not spend the time desoldering that 40 pin chip before you are certain it is bad. Many times, surprisingly, they are okay. Unfortunately you probably do not have one of Ed's QuickScan 80 devices, do you? They are handy to test RIOTs. Just curious, have you probed that board with an oscilloscope, powered up? IRQ signal? Address/data bus lines? Clock signal?
>>>
>>> Not yet, no. So far, what I've done is swap z13 and z15, since they were
>>> both obviously bad. Power up, no signs of life. I need to get a 7432 for
>>> z15, but if it should at least boot with the 74hc32 in there, that's
>>> good enough for now.
>>
>> I swapped z15 with a 74ls32, and z12 with a 7404. That didn't help. There's
>> still no signs of life.
>>
>> On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
>> magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532.
>
> This is a very bad sign. That much over-voltage hitting the 6532 means
> other ICs on the bus may also be blown - like your CPU, other 6532s,
> Eprom, and 5101.
> Might be better off with another MPU...if you have a Fluke 9010 with a
> 6502 pod then you could do more checking without simply shotgunning parts.
far were obviously bad, so no harm done there.
| Pinto: Put In New Transmission Often |
David Gersic
Aug 18, 2014, 10:17:21 PM8/18/14
to
On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 03:56:52 -0700 (PDT), c...@provide.net <c...@provide.net> wrote:
> Another thing to remember when you're working on this...
> minimize the system.
Good advice, yeah, but with no clock signal at the CPU, I think she's
> Another thing to remember when you're working on this...
> minimize the system.
dead, Jim.
| "I hope I die before I get old..." |
Dan Beck
Aug 18, 2014, 11:43:25 PM8/18/14
to
I would think fixing the clock signal would be a cheap and easy project, except of course if there is alkaline corrosion associated with it. Who knows how well that board may perk up, with a functional clock signal... or it may be more of a project than you desire, and that would be understandable.
Regards,
Dan
Regards,
Dan
c...@provide.net
Aug 19, 2014, 6:50:44 PM8/19/14
to
no clock usually is one or two TTL chips
just below the crystal, and the crystal itself.
not much beyond that. usually pretty easy to fix.
just below the crystal, and the crystal itself.
not much beyond that. usually pretty easy to fix.
John Robertson
Aug 19, 2014, 7:11:37 PM8/19/14
to
On 08/19/2014 3:50 PM, c...@provide.net wrote:
> no clock usually is one or two TTL chips
> just below the crystal, and the crystal itself.
> not much beyond that. usually pretty easy to fix.
A bit too much of this thread was deleted - you missed the part where he
> no clock usually is one or two TTL chips
> just below the crystal, and the crystal itself.
> not much beyond that. usually pretty easy to fix.
said the 6532 was split open...pretty good bet the board is completely
blown as a result.
"On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532. "
>
> On Monday, August 18, 2014 10:17:21 PM UTC-4, David Gersic wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 03:56:52 -0700 (PDT), c...@provide.net <c...@provide.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Another thing to remember when you're working on this...
>>
>>> minimize the system.
>>
>>
>>
>> Good advice, yeah, but with no clock signal at the CPU, I think she's
>>
>> dead, Jim.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> | David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
>>
>> | "I hope I die before I get old..." |
>>
>> | Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |
>
David Gersic
Aug 20, 2014, 12:57:38 AM8/20/14
to
On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:11:37 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> wrote:
> On 08/19/2014 3:50 PM, c...@provide.net wrote:
>> no clock usually is one or two TTL chips
>> just below the crystal, and the crystal itself.
>> not much beyond that. usually pretty easy to fix.
>
> A bit too much of this thread was deleted - you missed the part where he
> said the 6532 was split open...pretty good bet the board is completely
> blown as a result.
>
> "On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
> magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532. "
Yeah, that. I'm debating what I want to do next with this. I'm thinking
> On 08/19/2014 3:50 PM, c...@provide.net wrote:
>> no clock usually is one or two TTL chips
>> just below the crystal, and the crystal itself.
>> not much beyond that. usually pretty easy to fix.
>
> A bit too much of this thread was deleted - you missed the part where he
> said the 6532 was split open...pretty good bet the board is completely
> blown as a result.
>
> "On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
> magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532. "
about just shotgunning the board. New 6502, 3 x new 6532, and a new 5101
should cover most of what's on the address and data bus lines. Maybe I'll
need some of the other smaller chips, too, but that's only a couple of
hours' work to replace it all, and the parts aren't that expensive.
Other than the blown chips, this is a nice looking board, clean, with no
battery damage.
| f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmng. |
John Robertson
Aug 20, 2014, 2:40:25 AM8/20/14
to
On 08/19/2014 9:57 PM, David Gersic wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:11:37 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> wrote:
>> On 08/19/2014 3:50 PM, c...@provide.net wrote:
>>> no clock usually is one or two TTL chips
>>> just below the crystal, and the crystal itself.
>>> not much beyond that. usually pretty easy to fix.
>>
>> A bit too much of this thread was deleted - you missed the part where he
>> said the 6532 was split open...pretty good bet the board is completely
>> blown as a result.
>>
>> "On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
>> magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532. "
>
> Yeah, that. I'm debating what I want to do next with this. I'm thinking
> about just shotgunning the board. New 6502, 3 x new 6532, and a new 5101
> should cover most of what's on the address and data bus lines. Maybe I'll
> need some of the other smaller chips, too, but that's only a couple of
> hours' work to replace it all, and the parts aren't that expensive.
>
> Other than the blown chips, this is a nice looking board, clean, with no
> battery damage.
>
Yeah, its too bad you don't have a Fluke or similar CPU exorcisor they
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:11:37 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> wrote:
>> On 08/19/2014 3:50 PM, c...@provide.net wrote:
>>> no clock usually is one or two TTL chips
>>> just below the crystal, and the crystal itself.
>>> not much beyond that. usually pretty easy to fix.
>>
>> A bit too much of this thread was deleted - you missed the part where he
>> said the 6532 was split open...pretty good bet the board is completely
>> blown as a result.
>>
>> "On further review, U4 is dead. There's a visible crack in the case. The
>> magic smoke has clearly escaped the 6532. "
>
> Yeah, that. I'm debating what I want to do next with this. I'm thinking
> about just shotgunning the board. New 6502, 3 x new 6532, and a new 5101
> should cover most of what's on the address and data bus lines. Maybe I'll
> need some of the other smaller chips, too, but that's only a couple of
> hours' work to replace it all, and the parts aren't that expensive.
>
> Other than the blown chips, this is a nice looking board, clean, with no
> battery damage.
>
are very handy for this level of troubleshooting.
If you are going ahead then I'd follow Clays recommendation and get the
clock running to the CPU. You can use the Diode Test I spoke of earlier
to check the data and address lines to see if any of them are stuck once
you remove the bad 6532. If these lines are OK and the IRQ line is also
OK then it may be that the damage was confined to the switch matrix and
its 6532. The diode test can show that gates are good which can save a
bunch of unsoldering and thus reduce the risk of board damage.
John :-#)#
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