The Growing interst in EMs...

[Frank Furhter]

... is due to most of the folks in the 'hobby' missing out due to
ignorance and lack of intelligence on what markets and product are worth.

Even though the EMs take more time and energy to fix up and restore,
maintain and sell, there is a growing interest in these machines due to
the perceived notion they are a vestige of the hobby of pinball.

Long gone, idiots rule, the prices and structure are now defined by new
rules. Stupidity or lack of concern with hyper-inflationary pressures.

[Rare Hero]

Your constant angry posting is proof of how boring EMs
are....otherwise you'd be off playing them all day. :)

Greg

[Frank Furhter]

Maybe I am... :)

[Newport-Bill]

Personally I prefer EMs as those are what I first played growing up and
the chime sound is pinball to me over the techno beeps and buzzes of the
new ones. Also the fact that I have a chance to work on and fix them
makes them more enjoyable than the SS machines that I have to pay
someone to come out and fix.

Don't get me wrong as I enjoy playing the newer games as well but when I
can have a basement wall of EMs in place of one new Stern I will go the
EM route every time!


--
Newport-Bill
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[Frank Furhter]

Newport-Bill wrote:
> Personally I prefer EMs as those are what I first played growing up and
> the chime sound is pinball to me over the techno beeps and buzzes of the
> new ones. Also the fact that I have a chance to work on and fix them
> makes them more enjoyable than the SS machines that I have to pay
> someone to come out and fix.
>
> Don't get me wrong as I enjoy playing the newer games as well but when I
> can have a basement wall of EMs in place of one new Stern I will go the
> EM route every time!
>
>

Come and give me a hug, I will do the same. Freaking amazing how folks
migrate price or performance to newer games vs the games with hidden
features and mystic. The discovery is the journey, is the ride, is the
value. These guys that pump .75 or more into a machine on location or
otherwise at a 'museum' crack me up, they are looking for cheap porn in
a box.

[John in WI]

I also prefer EM's but in my experience, my EM's require far less maintenance than the newer pins.

[SaBbRa CaDaBra]

You have an interest, a growing interest, or no interest?

[Pinball Dave]

I invoke the "new" Godwin's law with this one word... Todd

[Frank Furhter]

Pinball Dave wrote:
> I invoke the "new" Godwin's law with this one word... Todd

Hitler apparently is your friend.

[Chris]

If there is a growing interest in EMs, it's only because they're the only pinballs left that anybody can afford.

[jpola]

Mermaid is worth more than any game in your collection...suck it!!!

[seeburg220]

I'm glad I don't have to choose between EM, SS, DMD, and now Virtual.
I have all and like them all. It's kinda like asking me if I like
Redheads, Blondes, or Brunettes...Yes please, preferably all at
once ! lol

[trilogybeer]

I nice mix of everything pinball has to offer keeps it interesting .
Theres alot of good EMs out there, gotta have at least one in the
collection.

[shacklersrevenge]

I actually like em's, but haven't owned one yet. I played one with
snowmobiles at allentown that i thought was pretty neat but i forget the
name (had two spinners that actually SPUN...) and there was this goofy
game called cowboy for $300 that had big jumbo flippers on it but it
played pretty good! I almost pulled the trigger on it.

James


--
shacklersrevenge

[Mike Gervasi]

On May 24, 9:22 pm, Frank Furhter <fr...@furhter.com> wrote:

I'm definitely interested in getting my first EM. Just trying to
decide which one.

[Wolfmarsh]

I am really enjoying the experience with my first EM.

It hadn't even been powered on in over a decade, and had the layer of
dust to prove it.

The cabinet is pretty beat up, and previous failed attempts at repairing
it before it was shoved in a barn 10 years ago left the wiring a
complete hanging mess. I have spent about 3 weeks on it (I only get to
work on it an hour or two a night, kinda sporadically) and have gotten
the playfield restored, and am in the process of repainting the backbox.
I start the black coats today if the rain stays away.

This weekend I hope to fix all of the wiring in the backbox.

It really is a fascinating machine, anyone who is interested in
mechanical stuff or even computer programming should get one and tinker
with it. The basics are so simple, it only feels complicated because of
the sheer number of switches and dependencies.


--
Wolfmarsh

[Brad]

In terms of how quickly fairly priced EM games are being sold on
Craigslist, I agree that more people are buying. Two weeks ago I sold
a game the same day it was listed. I also purchased one last week..
responded just after it was posted. By the time I got to this guys
house he told me he had 5 other offers.


If more SS/DMD only players had the chance to play a properly tuned EM,
they might have a change of heart...or at least have a better
appreciation of EM pins. The pinball shows do not help the EM cause.
At the few shows I've been to there are always some EM dogs..flippers
that could not propel the ball to the top of the playfiled and pop
bumpers with floppy rings..ect.

For ease vs cost of repair, I think EM's win.


--
Brad

[jackofdiamonds]

I love EM,s!!I need Ems,SS and DMDs to scratch all my pinball itches.Has
nothing to do with markets or bubbles or ignorance or spitefullness or
envy or greed or any of the other issues this message board has.It has
to do with fun.RGP used to be fun,now its a place for the angry.I'm glad
playing is still fun.Scott


--
jackofdiamonds

[FredMaine]

Unless I'm mistaken, FF's major issue is with the economics of pinball.
Machines that should be worth $100 seem to be selling for much, much
more these days.

I blame it on a couple of things, foremost is the TV shows Pawn Stars
and American Pickers. They seem to have glorified EM machines and
touted unrealistic values, such as that EM machine purchased for $500,
put in $3000 in restorations, and sold for $5000. All BS I think.

These shows seem to be inflating values only because they can; old
pinball machines are cool now - to the target audience.

The other thing is the Indiana Jones factor. At one point in the first
movie Dr. Belloq holds up a pocket watch and says "Look at this. It's
worthless - ten dollars from a vendor in the street. But I take it, I
bury it in the sand for a thousand years, it becomes priceless. Like the
Ark." Or like an old pinball machine found in a barn.


--
FredMaine

[zarco]

Like others that have responded to this thread, my collection is a
mix of pins that spans 1933 to 1995. Enjoy playing the early pins
as much as the later ones. It seems like there are a bunch of folks
in this hobby that have blinders on and only play/collect/restore a
tiny subset of pins. You guys are missing out IMO. I'm happy to see
occasional posts on rgp where someone 'discovers' EM's, bingos, or
early mechanical pins. The prices of the so called "A-list" games
crack me up. Waiting for that bubble to burst....
Steve


--
zarco

[jackofdiamonds]

I've yet to meet a 25-35 year old pinhead who would consider an EM.Most
of them are Stern guys.They like the B/W stuff but haven't played all
those titles.It's a perspective thing.You need to be introduced/exposed
to EMs before you can "get behind" the whole thing.Scott


--
jackofdiamonds

[Wolfmarsh]

Well, I am in your demographic. :) I am 33. I don't know if I would
consider myself a pinhead yet though. I was into pinball as a kid, and
a buddy just recently got me back into it. He purchased 3 machines, a
F14, a Cyclone, and a High Speed, then sold me the F14 because it was a
little more of a restoration than he was hoping for. I have restored a
variety of other things in the past, furniture, antique radios, HAM
radio equipment, etc.. but never a pinball game. For me, it is the fun
in the restore more so than anything else.

My barn-found EM machine came from a shot in the dark I took on
Craigslist. I made a post asking if anyone had any old pinball
equipment they wanted hauled away, and actually got several responses
from it. I was actually just hoping for an empty cabinet or some parts,
but this Yukon Special EM machine was my prize.

There is no way this machine is leaving my collection for a while. I am
putting way more man hours into it than would be profitable for someone
who restores these things for money.

One of these days I will post some pics.


--
Wolfmarsh

[PapaJohn]

I own one EM pin. Its game play is simple and to the point. That
being said, anybody new at pinball or not can step up to the machine
and understand the rules and have a great time. People in many cases
just spend some time just looking and commenting on the backglasses of
the EMs before they even play the games. There really isn't a
comparison between the newer video(DMD)/ pinball games and the classic
EM games......Example: colorful, classy backglasses vs. photoshopped
paper backglasses, break in gameplay while you watch a 'video', ramps
that you shoot over and over again just to have the ball return via
another ramp to the flippers, etc. Bottom line is we all have our
tastes in pinball, some like the high priced video/pinball games and
some like the classy 'old school' fun and easy to understand pins.

[CactusJack]

Brad;1945568 Wrote:
>
>
> If more SS/DMD only players had the chance to play a properly tuned EM,
> they might have a change of heart...or at least have a better
> appreciation of EM pins. The pinball shows do not help the EM cause.
> At the few shows I've been to there are always some EM dogs..flippers
> that could not propel the ball to the top of the playfiled and pop
> bumpers with floppy rings..ect.
>
>

Sad but true. It seems at many shows, the EMs just don't hold up to
issues like low voltage etc. They probably play fine in the private
collection, but don't do as well when banked with a bunch of other games
plugged into chains of power strips.

HOWEVER, if given the chance, I suggest people plan to attend the
upcoming Pacific Pinball Expo. There, power has never been an issue.
Are there a few EM dogs in the group? Absolutely, but they are far out
numbered by excellent working examples of well playing game. There, you
can "test the waters" for many eras of EMs and determine if they are
right for you. I do not think you will ever see a larger line up of EMs
covering all eras. And there are plenty of SS and DMD games with the
number increasing each year in case you decide the EMs are not for you.

I certainly can't wait to attend again this year.

RB


--
CactusJack

[Oryk Zinyo]

I am in your demographic as well, I just turned 35 this year. I have
more EM machines than DMD or SS machines and I prefer the play of a
properly working EM. In fact, I play a ton of EM machines at the
Seattle pinball show and usually only start one or two DMD machines.
There's something about the bells and chimes that draws me in...


OZ

On May 25, 7:38 am, jackofdiamonds <jackofdiamo...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

[cpiel]

> > If more SS/DMD only players had the chance to play a properly tuned EM,
> > they might have a change of heart...or at least have a better
> > appreciation of EM pins.   The pinball shows do not help the EM cause.
> > At the few shows I've been to there are always some EM dogs..flippers
> > that could not propel the ball to the top of the playfiled and pop
> > bumpers with floppy rings..ect.

I'll second this. I was a DMD-only guy UNTIL I had the chance to play
some nicely restored EMs. A trip to Nick Raschilla's and Vic Camp's
opened my eyes to a whole new world of nostalgic fun and a great bunch
of folks to boot. Since I traveled for work, I went crazy for a
couple years after that playing hundreds of EM titles all across the
country - bought and sold a bunch and eventually settled in on a few
"keepers" which are now beautifully restored, play smooth and fast and
have turned several people into buying their first EM. Also, many EM
folks here are very generous with their time and knowledge when you're
in a jam. I remember Chris Hibler helping me with an Atlantis a few
years back to the point where I was ready to send him a check (he
wouldn't take it).

BTW, our little "Pinball Diner" game room is always open to anyone
wanting to check out a handful of these gems - we live 15 minutes from
the Allentown show.

[Scott McClure]

cpiel;1945698 Wrote:
> > > If more SS/DMD only players had the chance to play a properly tuned
> EM,
> > > they might have a change of heart...or at least have a better

> > > appreciation of EM pins. * The pinball shows do not help the EM
> cause..

> > > At the few shows I've been to there are always some EM
> dogs..flippers
> > > that could not propel the ball to the top of the playfiled and pop
> > > bumpers with floppy rings..ect.
>
> I'll second this. I was a DMD-only guy UNTIL I had the chance to play
> some nicely restored EMs. A trip to Nick Raschilla's and Vic Camp's
> opened my eyes to a whole new world of nostalgic fun and a great bunch
> of folks to boot. Since I traveled for work, I went crazy for a
> couple years after that playing hundreds of EM titles all across the
> country - bought and sold a bunch and eventually settled in on a few
> "keepers" which are now beautifully restored, play smooth and fast and
> have turned several people into buying their first EM. Also, many EM
> folks here are very generous with their time and knowledge when you're
> in a jam. I remember Chris Hibler helping me with an Atlantis a few
> years back to the point where I was ready to send him a check (he
> wouldn't take it).
>
> BTW, our little "Pinball Diner" game room is always open to anyone
> wanting to check out a handful of these gems - we live 15 minutes from
> the Allentown show.

I totally appreciate the SS/DMD games and the technology that goes into
them. However, I just don't particularly care to play them very often,
excepting the early SS games that were basically EM style games with SS
components.

I'm just not a real big fan of the multiple play levels, all the ramps
and toys, and the deep rulesets that I really don't have the time, or
probably also the patience, to figure it all out. I understand that
younger people like them and that's absolutely fine, but it's just not
pinball to me.

Also, to me, there's a nostalgia factor in EMs that no matter what, I
can't get from a DMD. It's part of my youth, it's what I grew up with,
and what I'm sticking with.

If you've played Vic Camp's games, then you've played a high level EM.
I've never played them myself, only seen all the pictures, but I will
play them some day. I have some really well restored EMs, but Vic's
collection is just nuts.


--
Scott McClure

[Tektune]

OK, I've gotta post my 2 cents here.

I like the EM's way more than the DMD's and most of the SS (although
some of the early SS were basically EMs w digital displays).

To me, pinball is all about the excitement of watching the ball race
around the playfield, and making skill shots to get the highest score.

EMs had light, bright playfields that had lots of open area for the ball
to travel around, make side to side shots, and the game rules were much
easier to understand. You can tell, even with fast ball action, which
target you need to hit next to enable a feature or score. Generally, the
play time per ball is about right, so that you don't get bored. The
mechanical bells/chimes have a true "ring" to them, are at a consistent
volume level, and provide the player with audible feedback on how well
they are scoring.

DMDs often have dark themes/playfields and flashing strobe lights that
make it difficult to visually track the ball. Often the playfield is
covered with ramps and other "toys" that reduce the playable area. It
may be fun to discover these toys when first played, but after that they
are pretty mundane. The flippers are often so strong that targets aren't
much of a challenge to hit, and many times the play time per ball is so
long, that you get bored and almost wish the ball would drain faster.
The synthesized sounds and voices are often distracting, and frequently
the volume is too loud or too soft. The DMD machines remind me of video
games, which I generally find pretty boring.

Maintenance wise, I would much rather repair an EM than a DMD. Most EM
problems are easy to locate if you have a schematic. Often times a
contact adjustment is all that is needed, or a stepper cleaning or
adjustment. DMD machine repairs often require parts that are not on
hand, are very expensive (a DMD or CPU board costs more than my EMs
did), and problems can be much more difficult to locate. When was the
last time you found an overheated connector in an EM? Burnt/failed
connectors are way too common in the SS/DMD machines. EMs have
relatively flat playfield glass that will hold a toolbox or a beer, try
that with many DMD machines, and your tools/drinks will be on the floor.
EM playfields are generally easy to lift and prop for maintenance, while
DMD playfields are often heavy/massive, have weird/crazy prop rods or
brackets, and some features are multiple layers deep- a PITA to get at.
Moving and setting up an EM is much easier, the head comes off easily,
and can be used to prop up the lower cabinet while installing the last 2
legs.

OK all you DMD lovers, flame on! To each their own, I will stick with
EMs.

Have a great Memorial Day all!


--
Tektune

[Rompen]

On May 24, 8:22 pm, Frank Furhter <fr...@furhter.com> wrote:
> ... is due to most of the folks in the 'hobby' missing out due to
> ignorance and lack of intelligence on what markets and product are worth.
>
> Even though the EMs take more time and energy to fix up and restore,
> maintain and sell, there is a growing interest in these machines due to
> the perceived notion they are a vestige of the hobby of pinball.
>
> Long gone, idiots rule, the prices and structure are now defined by new
> rules.  Stupidity or lack of concern with hyper-inflationary pressures.

Now I'm beginning to believe that FF isn't actually a person, but a
computer program designed to spit out the most inane things possible.

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> If more SS/DMD only players had the chance to play
> a properly tuned EM, they might have a change of heart.

This statement is very true!
I think it's the lite shows and speech
and sound effects that keep the players
engaged, not so much the playfield
layout. After all, the playfield
dimensions are still the same after all
these years. I guess that's why I
gravitated to the 2" flipper games,
which seem to make playfields feel
bigger-contain more features. DC
current is a beautifull thing, but won't
be missed on a properly tuned older game.
I just never could get used to
the schtinkin' ramps, obstructing your
playfield view, sending the ball to some
predetermined area, like the flipper
return lane, and having to shoot it 4-5
times in a row. Certainly not a recipe
for peeking my interest in firing up a
second game....
If you're after the "Deeper Rule
Set," you need to try some of the earlier
'50's stuff. Many of those games have a
single shot for multiple free games
after accomplishing a lengthy sequence.
Don't think for a minute this happens
frequently. OK, won't call it a deep
rule set but it's a comparitable extended
challenge since it's usually very tough
to get to this feature, and rarely
happens.
It's really just a matter of taste
but I always wondered where prices on EM's
would be if production numbers were equal.

[Scott McClure]

This is how it is with me. When I was a kid, if I was walking along or
went into a place and there was a game there, if I had a dime or a
quarter in my pocket, it was going into that machine. Even if it was a
game I played a bunch, I still wanted to play it.

Even today, occasionally I'll go into a gas station or something and
there is an EM in there. It's rare, but on occasion, you find one. I
still stick a quarter in it, even if it's a beat up mess, and
unfortunately find that things don't work right, but I still do it.

If I go somewhere that has an SS/DMD on location, most of the time, I
might take a look but rarely will I fish out a dollar or whatever to
play it. As I said before, it's just not pinball.

Ron's explanation about the openness of the playfield on EMs is
something that I never really thought about but it is true. You can
always see the ball. On some of these games now, you see it less than
when it has disappeared up some ramp or down some hole.


--
Scott McClure

[joenewberry]

Chris;1945407 Wrote:
> If there is a growing interest in EMs, it's only because they're the
> only pinballs left that anybody can afford.

That's certainly the reason they outnumber SS games in our collection
here three to one. Not to mention EM games are easier to work on in my
opinion. There is a certain amount of black box mystery in an SS game
until you really get to know it well. An EM is all there in front of
you with nothing wrapped up in an IC that has to be divined out through
repeated schematic readings, datasheet consultations, etc.

I also think their designs were simpler, so it's easier to get into the
game and figure out the objectives in a couple of minutes. The artwork
was also different on the EMs. Lighter, brighter, happier maybe?
Sci-fi themes are rendered Buck Rogers style, people seem to be out of a
Norman Rockwell painting, a Golden Age comic book, or a 50s cartoon ad.
It changes in the 70s on EMs, but it always seems like the SS games are
the real divergence point where things get darker and dirtier.

It's just more awesome to see, hear, and feel all those
electromechanical components keeping the game going. Technologically,
fitting that functionality into some tiny chips is the bigger marvel.
But I grew up in the age of that being common, so making the same things
happen with relays, steppers, and little else impresses me more.


--
joenewberry

[FredMaine]

Scott, I agree about the "missing ball" - can't remember which game but
there's one I played recently that has two pop bumpers and some other
targets under an elevated playfield. The ball stays in there and
bounces around, hitting targets and so on, and you never see it until it
finally falls out. I remember thinking, what is the point of this
action? I'm not a part of it. Just give me the 100,000 and come out
already.


--
FredMaine

[Pin Lord]

On May 24, 6:26 pm, Rare Hero <rarehero...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Your constant angry posting is proof of how boring EMs
> are....otherwise you'd be off playing them all day.  :)
>
> Greg

Agree...EMs are boring. I should say that every EM I've tried is
boring. Not to say that they ALL are, but I've played quite a few and
none of them have made me want to put more than a couple games into
it. And certainly none make me want to play one over a DMD era or
System 11 era game...that includes Popeye. EMs aren't made anymore
for a reason and that reason is they are just not that good.

[Chaz]

Gottlieb 'Atlantis'

[Rare Hero]

On May 25, 2:36 pm, Pin Lord <rduk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Agree...EMs are boring.  I should say that every EM I've tried is
> boring.  Not to say that they ALL are, but I've played quite a few and
> none of them have made me want to put more than a couple games into
> it.  And certainly none make me want to play one over a DMD era or
> System 11 era game...that includes Popeye.  EMs aren't made anymore
> for a reason and that reason is they are just not that good.

Here's the thing...getting into a "my tastes are better than your
tastes, you're stupid if you spend a lot" argument is pointless...but
that's what Frank likes to do for some reason. He wants to belittle
people for buying and enjoying modern era games. When I say EMs are
boring, it's really just to poke back to show how ridiculous it is to
convince someone that their likes/dislikes are "wrong". There is only
one FACT in this debate. People will pay lots for modern games...they
are in high demand. That doesn't make someone stupid, that just shows
that modern games are desirable and that's what more people want to
play. If you prefer EMs, knock yourself out! You just aren't going
to convince people to start collecting them if they don't really like
those games.

I've come to have an appreciation of EMs in kind of a museum relic
sort of way. I really enjoyed trying all the different ones at PPE
last year....but one or two plays were enough. I woudln't want to own
one or play it 100's or 1000's of times like I do w/ modern games.
I'm not the only one that feels this way, and the desired games and
prices paid for them are proof of this. Enjoy what you enjoy,
though...who cares. :)

Greg

[DB62]

Just play one of the VINTAGE Gottlieb single player wedgehead pinball
machines, especially an add-a-ball version. If that pinball machine is
set-up properley and working correctly, you non-EM guys will
definately change your opinions and views on playing these EM
classics.

Very fun and addictive and the sounds and backglasses can't be beat,
especially the ones with the mechanical animations. Great game play
and rule sets. Just try a GOTTLIEB AAB that again, is working and set-
up correctly and you will get hooked!!!

Dan

[seeburg220]

On May 25, 5:36 pm, Pin Lord <rduk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Agree...EMs are boring.  I should say that every EM I've tried is
> boring.  Not to say that they ALL are, but I've played quite a few and
> none of them have made me want to put more than a couple games into
> it.  And certainly none make me want to play one over a DMD era or
> System 11 era game...that includes Popeye.  EMs aren't made anymore
> for a reason and that reason is they are just not that good.

I would venture to say, as mentioned earlier, that you are under 40.
That would make for a plausible explanation of your opinion. I'm 47.
As a young kid, there were no video games and no SS pins (until I was
about 13). It's likely a nostalgia thing for a lot of us. I remember
playing a beat up Sky Lab at the bowling alley when I was 10 or 11.
And now, I own one.

A parallel comparison could be made to automobiles as well. I've
owned a '68 and '69 Camaro, and also a '70 Corvette. None of them
came anywhere near to a new car, in terms of ride quality, braking,
economy, comfort, reliability, options, etc. But when you're
blasting down the road with the t-tops off, the whole car rattling and
shaking, maybe some blue smoke out the exhaust - now that's bare bones
driving in its simplest form. EM's are like that imo. You and the
ball. Not 100 options like cruise control or bluetooth. Basic.
Rudimentary. Fun.

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> EMs aren't made anymore for a reason and that
> reason is they are just not that good.

Nope! EM's aren't made anymore
because at the time, they became cost-
prohibitive. If they were so bad, ask
yourself why each manufacturer made
several games in both EM and SS version.

> Agree...EMs are boring. I should say that every EM
> I've tried is boring.

It's too bad every single one
you've tried didn't appeal to you,
because they take no less than the
same level of skill as the DMD games,
(unless you're saying players back in
the day didn't have your skill). My
guess is you're used to the lite show,
background music, etc.....

[Wolfmarsh]

Hah! Just got another hit on my Craigslist ad. Another EM coming my
way. :)


--
Wolfmarsh

[EM's forever]

We have 40 restored pins in our collection. 11 are DMD's, 5 early
Bally SS, and the rest are all EM's. Being a route operator lifelong,
I can honestly say that keeping the EM's running is a hell of a lot
easier than the DMD and SS games.
EM game play can be very fun, especially with more than the typical EM
pitch, get at least 6.5-7 degrees pitch on a well restored game, and
the action can nearly parralell that of the SS and DMD games.

My handle name about describes it alll, haha.

Bill in Tacoma, WA

[homebrood]

On Thursday, May 24, 2012 11:36:35 PM UTC-5, trilogybeer wrote:
> On May 24, 10:03 pm, seeburg220 <seeburg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm glad I don't have to choose between EM, SS, DMD, and now Virtual.
> > I have all and like them all.  It's kinda like asking me if I like
> > Redheads, Blondes, or Brunettes...Yes please, preferably all at
> > once !  lol
>
> I nice mix of everything pinball has to offer keeps it interesting .
> Theres alot of good EMs out there, gotta have at least one in the
> collection.

I agree, except at least one EM still isn't enough...

Tom