How Stern can save itself and increase its presence in the marketplace.
citznfish
smplifying the design then do it. Be creative, stop loading the games
up with pricey gimmicks. Make the games cheap enough so operators can
reduce price per play to .50 or .25 and still make money. Lower price
per game would entice more people into playing. I know for me, I
choke on paying .75 or 1.00 per game. .50 or .25 is where you feel
you are gwtting value for your money.
Just my .02
PinFlipper
thats cause ur a cheap bastard!!!...lol sorry just kidding
cody chunn
They must cultivate a new generation of players first.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
In memoriam, Mark McIntyre CARGPB5
"citznfish" <citz...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b49b35a7-110e-4000...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
citznfish
> Too late.
>
> They must cultivate a new generation of players first.
>
> --
> -cody
> --CARGPB4
> In memoriam, Mark McIntyre CARGPB5
>
>
> news:b49b35a7-110e-4000...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Build games with a lower cost. If it means outsourcing to china or
> > smplifying the design then do it. Be creative, stop loading the games
> > up with pricey gimmicks. Make the games cheap enough so operators can
> > reduce price per play to .50 or .25 and still make money. Lower price
> > per game would entice more people into playing. I know for me, I
> > choke on paying .75 or 1.00 per game. .50 or .25 is where you feel
> > you are gwtting value for your money.
>
> > Just my .02
which they can by lowering the price per game to an amount a kid can
easily have in his pocket or bug their parents for. Again, it's a no
brainer to give a kid .50 or .25, but a dollar? That's paper money
we're talking about! ;-)
o_team_pinball
machines are (non existent) over there.
o_team_pinball (at) hotmail.com
Michigan City Indiana 46360
Orion
brokenvette
Yea OK. People gripe about Sterns being cheap? Let them be mad in
China and they will fall apart in a year. Not to mention that you are
just taking more money out of the pockets of people in the US.
bayoubilly
- No licensed themes (unless its Elvira), go back to cool creator designed
themes
- No ramps, save on ramp moldings
- Make some non-multiball games
- No "toys" on games - spend more effort /money on gameplay
- No plastic translights that look dull - go back to real backglasses
(pre-translights!)
- No "photograph" type artwork anywhere on the game
- Painted 2 or 3 color cabinets
- No pointy-style flippers
You think I'm kidding?
"citznfish" <citz...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b49b35a7-110e-4000...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
Sam
phoenixarcade.com
30 years later you just cant price it that way. I really dont believe
price is a major factor in playing pinball on location when you have
kids toting around their portable game systems where games average $40
each.
milt
> - No licensed themes (unless its Elvira), go back to cool creator designed
> themes
> - No ramps, save on ramp moldings
> - Make some non-multiball games
> - No "toys" on games - spend more effort /money on gameplay
> - No plastic translights that look dull - go back to real backglasses
> (pre-translights!)
> - No "photograph" type artwork anywhere on the game
> - Painted 2 or 3 color cabinets
> - No pointy-style flippers
>
> You think I'm kidding?
>
>
I was hoping you were because all you suggest would be the most boring,
cheap, game made and no one would want it.
Brian
The best solution for Stern to 'save itself' is to stop being a
pinball-only company and start producing other types of coin-op
equiptment. So while they can still produce pinball, they won't live
or die with the sales of specific machine. Of course, to compete in
other coin-op market would require innovation and if it's one thing
Stern has show is that they cannot innovate. (Yes I know Stern has
created a few redemption pieces, but it's not enough.)
Lowering the price of playing a pinball machine will do absolutely
nothing to help Stern or it's operators. The lower price won't apeal
to anyone if there nobody is remotely interested in the game in the
first place.
-- Brian
cody chunn
adolesent players of real pins later.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
In memoriam, Mark McIntyre CARGPB5
"Brian" <slam...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ebdc71df-56a9-47e7...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
MHS
How about actually sponsor a tournament or league and do anything
possible to get G4tv to show it. Hell, if ESPN can show hours and
hours and endless more hours of poker, surely someone can turn the
personalities on our hobby into an entertaining, tv-friendly special
or series. The best way to get ESPN the ocho or G4 to show it is not
dumbing down the games, it's just a matter of someone with a marketing
brain setting it up and exploiting storylines. They're not going to
do this on their own, Stern has to lead the way and approach them with
ideas or at the very least a tournament with a big cash prize. Make
it a tournament league with four majors, have texas, expo, papa, and
the one out west be the major tourneys, give out points and prizes
based on finish, and then have stern invite the top ten point
finalists in the rankings at year's end to a tournament played on
their newest machines. Keep the rankings on their website.
too simple, and if you skip the prizes (which already don't exist, so
i'm sure the first few years could get by without them) it really
doesn't cost much other than organization and having a day of great
publicity at your factory to show off your new game(s).
kbliznick
> possible to get G4tv to show it. Hell, if ESPN can show hours and
> hours and endless more hours of poker, surely someone can turn the
> personalities on our hobby into an entertaining, tv-friendly special
> or series. The best way to get ESPN the ocho or G4 to show it is not
> dumbing down the games, it's just a matter of someone with a marketing
> brain setting it up and exploiting storylines. They're not going to
> do this on their own, Stern has to lead the way and approach them with
> ideas or at the very least a tournament with a big cash prize. Make
> it a tournament league with four majors, have texas, expo, papa, and
> the one out west be the major tourneys, give out points and prizes
> based on finish, and then have stern invite the top ten point
> finalists in the rankings at year's end to a tournament played on
> their newest machines. Keep the rankings on their website.
>
> too simple, and if you skip the prizes (which already don't exist, so
> i'm sure the first few years could get by without them) it really
> doesn't cost much other than organization and having a day of great
> publicity at your factory to show off your new game(s).
This is by far the best idea I have heard yet. And to top it off it
sounds like it would be surprisingly simply and cheap to do.
miracleman
> I was hoping you were because all you suggest would be the most boring,
> cheap, game made and no one would want it.
Wow, I wonder how pinball survived for 80+ years without any toys,
ramps and crap?
jammer74
fun. jk
jimmy
Andrew Barney
The era of .25 a game has long gone. Even 50 cents a game.
Ask Lloyd about this, he has some interesting details.
Watch someone load money into a bar top. Price is not a big part of
the problem.
Andrew
Andrew Barney
How much innovation happened in 80+ years? How has our culture changed
in that time? How has entertainment changed?
Single level no multiball game as a new pin, that is a big risk. Maybe
it would work... maybe not.
Andrew
spike
occasions I see a pin on location, it's usually £1 play, £2 for three
games, which I'm happy to pay. A pint of beer is anything from £2.30
to £3 in a pub, so seems £1 play is reasonable in comparison.
Personally, I think arcade leisure has moved to the home market, along
with video games - Wii, X Box, PS3 replacing arcade.
Sad but true, methinks.
Spike
Josh Sharpe
> Make it a tournament league with four majors, have texas, expo, papa, and
> the one out west be the major tourneys, give out points and prizes
> based on finish, and then have stern invite the top ten point
> finalists in the rankings at year's end to a tournament played on
> their newest machines. Keep the rankings on their website.
This is pretty much exactly what we do at the IFPA. 6500 players from
28 countries compete in over 150 IFPA endorsed tournaments worldwide
each year.
Prizes are awarded, WPPR points are awarded (See www.pinballrankings.com
for details), and at the end of the year we invite the 64 best players
similar to the NCAA basketball tournament to play in the IFPA World
Pinball Championship. See http://www.ifpapinball.com/?page_id=209 for
more details.
Stern games are used predominantly at the World Championship as they
are our bigger sponsor, donating a NIB game to the World Champion.
Getting any sort of media coverage is our biggest mission, and so far
with a $0 budget we've done ok.
See media from IFPA 6 here: http://www.ifpapinball.com/?page_id=192
See media from IFPA 5 here: http://www.ifpapinball.com/?page_id=169
It's clearly working for us, as we've seen as the number of
tournaments available, and players in the rankings continue to
increase at a rapid pace:
# of events have increased from ~70 a year a few years back, to nearly
200 today.
# of players have increased from 2000 in '06 to over 6500 today.
Josh
PapaJohn
Yea, right, boring without ramps, etc. you mean like Eight Ball
deluxe????
Joe Grenuk
Cut costs. Make games cheaper. WOW, I bet Gary Stern wishes he would
have thought about that.
For me, I am just all fuzzy thinking about a new cheap(er) Stern game
with no ramps, no toys, and a bare wood cabinet.
And charge 25 or 50 cents? I am an old geezer guy, and I remember
back in 65 sneaking a dime out of my Mom's change stash to go play a
game of Kings and Queens at the local arcade. It was cool. No toys, no
sound, no ramps, no multiball unless you jacked up all 5 balls at
once, no topper, two flippers, no LED's, no DMD, just a one player,
kinda like the thing you're wanting made. OH....and that dime back in
'65? That is the same as.....drum roll, please....$.72
Doing the math backwards for you, the 25 cents you suggest would
equate to about 3 cents for a game back in 1965. Games have NEVER been
3 cents. All through the 50's they were a nickel....
Just my inflated two cents....
Joe
Rare Hero
> which they can by lowering the price per game to an amount a kid can
> easily have in his pocket or bug their parents for. Again, it's a no
> brainer to give a kid .50 or .25, but a dollar? That's paper money
> we're talking about! ;-)
Kids stuff dollar bills into redemption games all day long, where the
gameplay lasts 10 seconds (but they MIGHT get a prize) ...money's not
the issue.
Greg
That Don Guy
Pardon me for saying this, but if they seriously want to lower costs,
they should consider virtual pinball - i.e. replacing the playfield
with a TV-type video screen. A 50" LCD TV can cost under $1000, and
that's close enough to the right size for a playfield; add a smaller
screen for the "backglass", the cabinet, legs (which you don't really
need, but then you lose the feel of pinball), and so on, and you're
back in business, with an added bonus - you can have multiple titles
on the same machine.
(I know something like this already exists, but with a company like
Stern behind it, presumably they could reduce costs and make it more
widespread.)
I also realize that it's not "really" pinball without the physical
ball involved, but as long as tables get more and more expensive while
video game machines seem to get cheaper and more popular, you have to
consider it.
-- Don
___________________________________________________________
Because everybody needs insurance,
but not everybody needs a lawyer -
THAT'S why
Brian
> they should consider virtual pinball - i.e. replacing the playfield
> with a TV-type video screen. A 50" LCD TV can cost under $1000, and
> that's close enough to the right size for a playfield; add a smaller
> screen for the "backglass", the cabinet, legs (which you don't really
> need, but then you lose the feel of pinball), and so on, and you're
> back in business, with an added bonus - you can have multiple titles
> on the same machine.
>
> (I know something like this already exists, but with a company like
> Stern behind it, presumably they could reduce costs and make it more
> widespread.)
>
> I also realize that it's not "really" pinball without the physical
> ball involved, but as long as tables get more and more expensive while
> video game machines seem to get cheaper and more popular, you have to
> consider it.
>
> -- Don
> ___________________________________________________________
>
> Because everybody needs insurance,
> but not everybody needs a lawyer -
> THAT'S why
One table, providing many games. Reliable, simple, light and easy to
transport. Just replace major components when something goes wrong.
Maybe this is the next evolution.
Brian
pj
wrote:
maybe have the game cost a dime and last two seconds. Like the
redemption games?
Stephen
incredibly shitty idea. No wonder we barely have any industries left.
For real...the entire situation needs a reboot of the op system and
mentality. Sorry some of you probably don't like that, but when the
enthusiasts can barely find games to play on route...and those we do
find are in pathetic shape, what makes you think Joe Blow is going to
give two shits let alone one quarter? Sorry, he will give one quarter,
then when the game can't even find the ball to launch into the shooter
he'll remember to never, ever try that again.
JimB
something else. You could find different sounds on the internet to
make the game have a more custom feel.
kreed
($1 AUD = 90c US approx)
Australia has been $1 (coin) a play (3 balls, medium settings) since
the early 1990s,
Recently we have a number of pins on $2 (coin) a play. (5 balls,
easier settings).
It has been successful, while it has not made a fortune, it makes the
machine supply and service viable and profitable and the game last
longer on location.
Among these are a LW3, Whitewater. They earn quite well where they
are.
In my time in the industry, reducing price from the norm as suggested
by the OP
does NOT result in much extra earning, and also shortens the life of
the game on location dramatically before they are "sick of it".
This has been shown on a few occasions when games have accidentally
reverted to "factory" settings (cheaper), prices setup wrong by
accident or similar.
phishrace
> Build games with a lower cost. If it means outsourcing to china or
> smplifying the design then do it. Be creative, stop loading the games
> up with pricey gimmicks. Make the games cheap enough so operators can
> reduce price per play to .50 or .25 and still make money. Lower price
> per game would entice more people into playing. I know for me, I
> choke on paying .75 or 1.00 per game. .50 or .25 is where you feel
> you are gwtting value for your money.
>
> Just my .02
If 75 cents a game makes you choke, this arcade will give you a heart
attack:
$1.50 a game for Elvis and TSPP. And they get it all day.
Not wanting to pay more than 50 cents a game is just plain cheap. Do
you have games at home? How many plays per quarter spent have you got
on them?
Not to mention the fact that Gary Stern came out publicly about a year
and a half ago and said that he was going to simplify the games (in
part, to keep costs down). Have you ever played an IJ4? It's exactly
what you're looking for.
-phish
Jeff S
Managers what's up. They repeat the same mantra - they've heard pins
always break down and are expensive to fix. They were also ignorant
of the concept of calling a Coin Op Technician to make repairs.
This got me thinking more about what I'd like to see in pinball and
have to agree with those that suggest putting a network card in them
and promoting long distance tourneys. But I also thought of a few
other benefits from being networked that might help offset added
costs. First, it could allow User's to store their scores by pin and
location in a central database. This would be a nice feature if User
could further filter and sort data in a meaningful way. Would be even
better if User could alternatively insert a thumb drive to download
their info (without typing it in) to show stuff like what city are
they from or other stuff. Second, it would alert Owning Ops when a
machine was broken, since it would show a severe drop off in play.
This could also serve Players by allowing them to alert Owning Ops
directly, that a game was down and to describe what was wrong.
Thirdly it would assist Players by allowing them to view what pins
were available, where and in what condition through the network
(country or world). Finally, there is an even bigger potential
benefit that might seem kind of radical, but which could work pretty
nicely....
Just as Surgeons remotely use robots guided by cameras to perform
operations that are occurring thousands of miles away, Coin-op Techs
could utilize the camera concept to guide general Electronic
Technicians to fix many of the same issues. This might require a few
inexpensive cameras be added during production and for the pin to be
on-line. This approach would streamline the task of finding a
qualified Coin-op Tech by changing that need to one of locating a
general Electronics Tech, of which there are many more. Stern could
also assist by actively managing a database of Coin-op Techs and
general Electronics Techs whom had passed a competency test. Then if
a location had a problem, they’d search for a general Tech.
Since most stuff that breaks on a game is really simple, the idea of
using someone with a general electronics background rather than a Coin-
op Tech for freeing balls, replacing burnt bulbs and cleaning the pin
makes good sense. Then when the problem became more advanced, a
general Electronics Tech could connect to an available Coin-op Tech,
who would use installed cameras, on-line system diagnostics and
feedback from the general Tech to isolate most other issues. This
generalist could then successfully handle repairing them.
To a new location that might be considering housing a few pins, being
able to offer an enhanced support system, might entice them to give it
a try. Utilizing technology to perform the heavy lifting and
maintaining a database of qualified technicians would be a good
service and ultimately more economical way for a business to have
pins. Maybe then we’d begin seeing them pop up again at a theater,
bar, arcade, grocery store, laundry mat, restaurant or convenient
store near you.
JeffS
ATL
World of Pinball
Take the needle out of your arm. That is one of the dumbest posts
ever. This is 2010 not 2110 - build a robot and let it do the service.
The game at best makes $25 a week so what does that do for anyone?
Get rid of Gary Stern - he is the biggest roadblock to the success of
the company
Get rid of the CFO guy - waste of time bean counter trying to take
all the fun out of the games
Who wants stripped down games? Buy a Vacation Pinball or the Queen of
diamonds if you want a game with nothing on it. you will fall asleep
before the ball gets to the flippers
Let the designers run the company
Forget licesnses, CSI, Nba, 24,Buck Hunter,WheelofFortune, World poker
Tour, junk all
pincorrect
> Build games with a lower cost. If it means outsourcing to china or
> smplifying the design then do it. Be creative, stop loading the games
> up with pricey gimmicks. Make the games cheap enough so operators can
> reduce price per play to .50 or .25 and still make money. Lower price
> per game would entice more people into playing. I know for me, I
> choke on paying .75 or 1.00 per game. .50 or .25 is where you feel
> you are gwtting value for your money.
1. Get a time machine
2. Set it for 1987, go back in time
3. Redesign your games so that they are more fault-tolerant and
modular; create some new groundbreaking innovations.
This would probably keep Stern healthy and profitable for awhile.
4. Outsource components to third-world countries like everybody else
to reduce MFG costs and make the games more affordable to operators.
This would boost the market and make pinball as economical to own and
place as videos.
5. As the home/console market begins to be popular, embrace
technology and the Internet, make games interactive and competitive
using networking and centralized scoring servers. Create a global
tournament system.
What could they do right now?
Probably nothing. Stern probably can't even break into the slot
machine market at this point.
pincorrect
> Yea OK. People gripe about Sterns being cheap? Let them be mad in
> China and they will fall apart in a year. Not to mention that you are
> just taking more money out of the pockets of people in the US.
True. But the company has laid off most of its work force anyway
now. So it's a zero-sum gain. But at least they might have been able
to stay in business and be profitable longer. I totally respect these
old-school companies' desire to "keep it local" but if that's at the
cost of not being competitive, it makes it a tough call.
In a perfect world, people would appreciate well-crafted, domestically-
made products, and they wouldn't spend the majority of their time in
places like Target, K-Mart and Wal-Mart purchasing Chinese-made crap,
but that's what they do. I don't know if any of you guys were
complaining when Wal-Mart moved into your neighborhood an put several
dozen local people out of business. But hey, you can buy a Chinese-
made, plastic sculpture of an eagle waving an American flag for only
$4.99. God Bess America!
PinChamp
> up with pricey gimmicks. Make the games cheap
Is this a joke? Seriously, read what you wrote.
Stern already uses the cheapest crap parts available, and probably
pays minimum wage to its line workers judging by the build quality.
They cannot possibly build their games any cheaper. I mean have you
actually seen or played a Stern?
Its funny though because they just keep raising prices. What are they
going for like $4300 now or something like that?
Stern must be raking in cash on every unit because it can't cost more
than $1500 for them to create such dispicable turd machines.
Bingovit
The funny part is that these "cheap" machines that you mention are way
more reliable out of the box than any Williams game...
Maybe even funnier is the fact that they need less care on location in
comparison but a williams.
But hey, when you see no Williams logo on the backglass that means
they can't be good! I'm sorry, you must be right!
Back on topic though.
I think Stern can't do a lot to change sales if the interest doesn't
grow! Promoting the game is only one step.
Linking the games on internet seems like a good idea(I like it too)
but operators around here(Belgium) really don't want anything to do
with that!
They had lots of problems when Photoplay went online and got rid of it
really fast.
Main problem seems to be, who pays the internet connection, the
location or the op? All things you need to think about whether the
cost is worth the extra money you get, is it worth the trouble? If the
pin earns well on a location will it earn more with linking it and
more importantly, will you make a profit on top of the internet cost
(if you compare it with normal earnings)?
Making them cheaper doesn't seem an option to me, games without ramps,
multiball, speech,... are boring and not interesting anymore. You
really can't expect that the youngsters create an interest in a dull
product.
I like the idea that Lloyd offered a few times with the LCD though,
would be interesting for putting commercials on it when the game isn't
played so basically the pin can earn money without doing a thing!
Getting rid of the license is one of the worst ideas, they need to
pick strong licenses and they have to use them too, wouldn't it be
cool that you buy a DVD from BDK and you see in the trailer section
the commercial for the pin? I think things like this could benefit the
sales although I'm sure they're not that easy to accomplish but well
worth the effort.
I'm a pinball fan and to make Stern survive and make the hobby grow I
think promoting pinball is really important, I try to do it whenever I
get the chance and I've had some people coming over who really fell in
love with the game! I'm 20years old now and I do my best to create new
interest from a younger generation which seems to work every now and
then!
Another thing they need to do is dig up Dennis Nordmans redemption
games, he designed two of them and I think that if they are any good
they will mean a lot extra sales! Games like the Simpsons Kooky
Carnival have sold well cause I've seen them in places I didn't even
expect here in Belgium and what I see they earn well, so I think
that's another way to create sales and some extra money which can't be
bad for Stern!
CornCob
Something already went wrong - the idea of virtual pinball replacing
mechanical action. It doesn't work, it didn't work for Ultracade and
oh they wanted similar pin money NIB.
More advertising, push the games on to T.V. shows, offer the odd one
or two as giveaway prizes. They done this before, WPT on wheel of
fortune, given the the troops as the game poops.
WMS made a mistake in terminating the existing pinball line in favor
of pin2k, as george says, they are two different products.
If they can get celebrities playing them on t.v. like strictly come
dancing have a dance, dance arcade machine with the stars using it,
that kind of show off would IMHO help sales.
Ping
DugFreez
> - No licensed themes (unless its Elvira), go back to cool creator designed
> themes
> - No ramps, save on ramp moldings
> - Make some non-multiball games
> - No "toys" on games - spend more effort /money on gameplay
> - No plastic translights that look dull - go back to real backglasses
> (pre-translights!)
> - No "photograph" type artwork anywhere on the game
> - Painted 2 or 3 color cabinets
> - No pointy-style flippers
>
> You think I'm kidding?
You lost me at "No ramps".
milt
>
> The best solution for Stern to 'save itself' is to stop being a
> pinball-only company and start producing other types of coin-op
> equiptment. So while they can still produce pinball, they won't live
> or die with the sales of specific machine. Of course, to compete in
> other coin-op market would require innovation and if it's one thing
> Stern has show is that they cannot innovate. (Yes I know Stern has
> created a few redemption pieces, but it's not enough.)
>
>
That's the direction Williams went, and well, we all see how well that
worked out. They dumped the pinball!
milt
> No offence but i thought it's already called a zizzle i think. have
> fun. jk
> jimmy
>
Actually, that was what I was thinking. A cheaply made game with few or
no toys, no multiball, nothing fancy. Yup, that's a Zizzle machine. Oh
yeah, that would be a GREAT direction for Stern to go!