My expo 2010 pictures, plus game audits and sound level readings!
TheKorn
always (and somewhat strangely, I might add) it's about the people first
with the games second.
So if I forget to mention anybody, it's just because I'm a serious doof.
It's nothing intentional, just can't keep straight all the people I
meet/re-meet/re-re-re-re-meet. It's not intentional, and it's something I
try and work on every year, and am only marginally sucessful at best.
But shouts go out to: EVERYBODY from CPM who brought games -- I'm proud of
us, Rob Anthony, Steve Bauer, Darren, Andrew Barney (still a saint, dude),
Steve B, Phoebe & Larry (thanks again, Phoebs!), Casey, DugFreeziePop,
Phillippe T, Steve Tsubota, Freeman, Seaver, the OPL crew (wamsley, jim,
larry, et all), Koi, mrbillizhere, Tom L, the whole Minnesota crew (Jason,
grumpy, Vince, etc.), Kim Mitchell, and about fifty to a hundred others
that I just can't recall right now.
Next order of business... PICTURES! And you'll notice that we have some
high res pics of Mr68 to start with, so we can all stop photoshopping his
crappy facebook profile picture into things and instead use these! :D
http://tinyurl.com/2bdgcmp (a.k.a.
http://www.pinballmafia.net/pictures/show_pictures.php?yearmonth=Expo+
2010subset1 )
http://tinyurl.com/2343saj (a.k.a.
http://www.pinballmafia.net/pictures/show_pictures.php?yearmonth=Expo+
2010subset2 )
Moving right along, we have GAME AUDITS! I brought a Bride of Pinbot and a
Mousin' Around to expo, and both had significantly upgraded sound systems
on them. For once, I thought to grab some basic audits on them BEFORE I
tore them down, since they usually sit on end for at least a week after the
show.
Left column is BoP, right is MA:
Total plays: 954, 983 <-- day-yum * 2!
Average ball time: 54s, 45s
Average game time: 2.75m, 2m15s
replays: 66, 47
minutes of play: 2491, 2121
minutes on: 4360, (I don't think sys11 keeps this audit)
balls played: 2744, 2827
1p games: 506, 602
2p: 111, 134
3p: 29, 21
4p: 23, 10
(Anyone know why the 1p+2p+3p+4p is way less than the total number of plays
on both games?)
Additional BoP stats: face 1: 980, face 2: 719, face 3: 409, face 4:
126. big wheel spins: 79. billion awarded: 23 billion lit: 32 tilt:
78
Additional MA stats: special: 20, match: 98, HSTD: 9, EB: 32,
multiballs: 222
Something interesting to note is that BoP spent 57% of its total time on
actually IN game play. Usually for a show like expo that number is down
around 30%, which means it was no illusion, that game was in use for the
majority of the time it was there!
Finally, we have... SOUND PRESSURE READINGS! Yes, it was loud at expo
this year, and I'm definitely part of the cause. But it's loud every year,
even when I don't bring a big rig (or big rig X 2). Saturday night I
wanted to know just HOW loud it was in there, so I brought my SPL meter and
started walking around. YES I OWN A SPL METER -- I can't believe the
number of people who are genuinely *surprised* that I do. (Doesn't it make
intrinsic sense that I'd own one?? :) )
I tend to go with OSHA recommendations regarding sound levels, mainly
because I think they're on the high side to begin with. (i.e. I think they
should really be lower for what's permissable, but you have to start
somewhere.) http://tinyurl.com/28534tz (a.k.a.
http://63.234.227.130/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?
p_table=standards&p_id=9735 )
Anyway, in the vendor hall pretty much everywhere except for right in the
corner of Rob Berk's booth I found a continuous SPL of 83-84 dB.
Acceptable for 'all day every day' noise levels.
Walking into the free play area was quite different. Pretty much the
entire area minus a few hot spots was sitting at 93dB. Definite earplug
time if you were going to be in there for any extended amount of time.
And of course, one of the hotspots was pretty much within a ten foot radius
of my two games. A few feet away from BoP but *not* in the player position
was reading 104dB. (I didn't think to measure it at the playing position.)
That's just too damn loud IMHO. I personally gave away 20 sets of earplugs
to people who were willing to accept them. I really wish more people would
take/wear them! I forgot earplugs Wednesday and my ears were complaining
*hard* by the time I went home. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights I
had them in any time I went into the free play room.
Well that's it for now. Had a blast, and can't wait until next year! :)
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
JediTurtle
> First off, let me say that I had a blast of a time at expo this year. As
> always (and somewhat strangely, I might add) it's about the people first
> with the games second.
>
> So if I forget to mention anybody, it's just because I'm a serious doof.
> It's nothing intentional, just can't keep straight all the people I
> meet/re-meet/re-re-re-re-meet. It's not intentional, and it's something I
> try and work on every year, and am only marginally sucessful at best.
>
> But shouts go out to: EVERYBODY from CPM who brought games -- I'm proud of
> us, Rob Anthony, Steve Bauer, Darren, Andrew Barney (still a saint, dude),
> Steve B, Phoebe & Larry (thanks again, Phoebs!), Casey, DugFreeziePop,
> Phillippe T, Steve Tsubota, Freeman, Seaver, the OPL crew (wamsley, jim,
> larry, et all), Koi, mrbillizhere, Tom L, the whole Minnesota crew (Jason,
> grumpy, Vince, etc.), Kim Mitchell, and about fifty to a hundred others
> that I just can't recall right now.
>
> Next order of business... PICTURES! And you'll notice that we have some
> high res pics of Mr68 to start with, so we can all stop photoshopping his
> crappy facebook profile picture into things and instead use these! :D
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2bdgcmp (a.k.a. http://www.pinballmafia.net/pictures/show_pictures.php?yearmonth=Expo+
> 2010subset1 )
>
Cool stuff Korn...especially the SPL readings. I don't find it odd at
all that someone would own a meter. Anyone with a half way decent
home theater should have one. That's the only GOOD way to balance a
multiple speaker set-up.
themadman
plays
on both games?)
the 1p-2p-3p-4p are only counted after ball 3 has been started, the
total plays tick up when the start button is pressed. So if the
machine was slam tilted, game restarted, power cycled, or such, the
totals will be out of sync with each other, due to when it increases
the count...
calvin12
MA is close on the total, 973 vs 983, BoP is about 50 off. maybe
incomplete games? But for the totals it should be 1p
+(2p*2)+(3p*3)+(4p*4)
goatdan
> always (and somewhat strangely, I might add) it's about the people first
> with the games second.
>
> So if I forget to mention anybody, it's just because I'm a serious doof.
> It's nothing intentional, just can't keep straight all the people I
> meet/re-meet/re-re-re-re-meet. It's not intentional, and it's something I
> try and work on every year, and am only marginally sucessful at best.
>
> But shouts go out to: EVERYBODY from CPM who brought games -- I'm proud of
> us, Rob Anthony, Steve Bauer, Darren, Andrew Barney (still a saint, dude),
> Steve B, Phoebe & Larry (thanks again, Phoebs!), Casey, DugFreeziePop,
> Phillippe T, Steve Tsubota, Freeman, Seaver, the OPL crew (wamsley, jim,
> larry, et all), Koi, mrbillizhere, Tom L, the whole Minnesota crew (Jason,
> grumpy, Vince, etc.), Kim Mitchell, and about fifty to a hundred others
> that I just can't recall right now.
>
> Next order of business... PICTURES! And you'll notice that we have some
> high res pics of Mr68 to start with, so we can all stop photoshopping his
> crappy facebook profile picture into things and instead use these! :D
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2bdgcmp (a.k.a. http://www.pinballmafia.net/pictures/show_pictures.php?yearmonth=Expo+
> 2010subset1 )
>
> 2010subset2 )
>
> Moving right along, we have GAME AUDITS! I brought a Bride of Pinbot and a
> Mousin' Around to expo, and both had significantly upgraded sound systems
> on them. For once, I thought to grab some basic audits on them BEFORE I
> tore them down, since they usually sit on end for at least a week after the
> show.
>
> Left column is BoP, right is MA:
>
> Total plays: 954, 983 <-- day-yum * 2!
> Average ball time: 54s, 45s
> Average game time: 2.75m, 2m15s
> replays: 66, 47
> minutes of play: 2491, 2121
> minutes on: 4360, (I don't think sys11 keeps this audit)
> balls played: 2744, 2827
> 1p games: 506, 602
> 2p: 111, 134
> 3p: 29, 21
> 4p: 23, 10
>
> (Anyone know why the 1p+2p+3p+4p is way less than the total number of plays
> on both games?)
A 1p game counts as one play, a single 2p game counts as two plays,
etc. Therefore:
(602 * 1) + (134 * 2) + (21 * 3) + (10 * 4)
(602) + (268) + (63) + (40)
= 973
It's still off by 10, but that's where it comes from I believe. I
*think* (and this is speculation, but I think this is right) that the
other 10 comes from games that were started and then the machine was
powered off before the end of the first ball, as I believe they record
the play when the first ball is started, but they don't record the
number of people playing until "ball 2" shows up, as you can still add
more players.
Mr. 68
Bite me, camera boy.
Kim - CARGPB #36
www.WrongCrowdProductions.com
DMD Glare Guards
Tom G
TheKorn
news:24451c5d-6a09-4b6d...@e14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
> MA is close on the total, 973 vs 983, BoP is about 50 off. maybe
> incomplete games? But for the totals it should be 1p
> +(2p*2)+(3p*3)+(4p*4)
Ahhh, yeah, forgot that you had to multiple 2p games by 2, 3p games by 3,
etc. Whoops. Thanks everybody!
Mrhide
TheKorn
cf5a34...@l20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> Who's got the grand champion score?! Koi or me?!
Duhhhh, I have no idea! I'll let you know once I put it back up on its
legs. :)
Mickey Johnson
of games at the show.. There is no point of having 'volume wars' in the
free play area. The games are all so loud, that the sound effects and
speech just mix to a roar.
One of the bad things about shows is that they are always so loud that you
really don't hear anything. The volume definitely needs to go way down.
Ear plugs aren't the answer, sound levels should be appropriate in a puble
setting. This is one of the reasons that I spend the least amount of time
in the free play area.
I don't think a 'nazi' form of guidelines needs to be followed, just a rule
of thumb to be told to all people bringing games.
"TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.Net> wrote in message
news:Xns9E1D6D01E...@94.75.214.39...
TheKorn
news:ia75ae$an9$1...@news.albasani.net:
> Actually it would be nice, if you could use your meter to set volume
> levels of games at the show.. There is no point of having 'volume
> wars' in the free play area. The games are all so loud, that the
> sound effects and speech just mix to a roar.
If you can get everybody to agree to give me their keys, it'll be done.
Mrhide
Expo: it's all about the people!
TheKorn
86df4c...@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com:
> Btw very nice pictures that camera takes !!
Thanks! (...and it *better* take better pictures than Swanson's $30
special! :) )
Wolffy
-wolffy (knows he has more serious problems the day he doesn't hear
Korn's games)
On 10/26/2010 10:42 AM, TheKorn wrote:
> First off, let me say that I had a blast of a time at expo this year. As
> always (and somewhat strangely, I might add) it's about the people first
> with the games second.
>
> So if I forget to mention anybody, it's just because I'm a serious doof.
> It's nothing intentional, just can't keep straight all the people I
> meet/re-meet/re-re-re-re-meet. It's not intentional, and it's something I
> try and work on every year, and am only marginally sucessful at best.
>
> But shouts go out to: EVERYBODY from CPM who brought games -- I'm proud of
> us, Rob Anthony, Steve Bauer, Darren, Andrew Barney (still a saint, dude),
> Steve B, Phoebe& Larry (thanks again, Phoebs!), Casey, DugFreeziePop,
wbradley
> First off, let me say that I had a blast of a time at expo this year. As
> always (and somewhat strangely, I might add) it's about the people first
> with the games second.
>
> So if I forget to mention anybody, it's just because I'm a serious doof.
> It's nothing intentional, just can't keep straight all the people I
> meet/re-meet/re-re-re-re-meet. It's not intentional, and it's something I
> try and work on every year, and am only marginally sucessful at best.
>
> But shouts go out to: EVERYBODY from CPM who brought games -- I'm proud of
> us, Rob Anthony, Steve Bauer, Darren, Andrew Barney (still a saint, dude),
> Steve B, Phoebe & Larry (thanks again, Phoebs!), Casey, DugFreeziePop,
> Phillippe T, Steve Tsubota, Freeman, Seaver, the OPL crew (wamsley, jim,
> larry, et all), Koi, mrbillizhere, Tom L, the whole Minnesota crew (Jason,
> grumpy, Vince, etc.), Kim Mitchell, and about fifty to a hundred others
> that I just can't recall right now.
>
> Next order of business... PICTURES! And you'll notice that we have some
> high res pics of Mr68 to start with, so we can all stop photoshopping his
> crappy facebook profile picture into things and instead use these! :D
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2bdgcmp (a.k.a. http://www.pinballmafia.net/pictures/show_pictures.php?yearmonth=Expo+
> 2010subset1 )
>
I read 92-93 dB on the VU meter of my iPhone in the free play area. A
bigger room would have been much better.
Mickey Johnson
You do really seem to like expo (you talk about being there beginning to
end).
You do really know alot about audio (and its dangers).
Your group CPM probably has the majority of games (compared to any other
person).
But from what I can tell you think this is a silly idea. From what I am
inferring (and I could be wrong).
Just crank the games up to the sky audio wise and its ear plugs for just you
and your friends.
For an audiophile that you seem to be, this seems very odd.
To each there own I guess..................
mickey
"TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.Net> wrote in message
news:Xns9E1D87E60...@94.75.214.39...
metallik
> inferring (and I could be wrong).
> Just crank the games up to the sky audio wise and its ear plugs for just you
> and your friends.
I think he's inferring that it would be a PITA to go around and round
up keys from everyone who brings games (lots there besides CPM), but
if you're willing to volunteer, he's willing to meter their sound and
adjust volume. You have a good idea, but it would take a lot of work
and coordination to pull off, and that's assuming A) you can track
down all the owners, B) they all are willing to give up their keys,
and C) are willing to let someone else set their game's volume. Ever
heard of the phrase "trying to herd cats" ..? :)
Chris Hibler
> I really can't tell by your response if you are being sarcastic or what.
>
> You do really seem to like expo (you talk about being there beginning to
> end).
> You do really know alot about audio (and its dangers).
> Your group CPM probably has the majority of games (compared to any other
> person).
>
> But from what I can tell you think this is a silly idea. From what I am
> inferring (and I could be wrong).
> Just crank the games up to the sky audio wise and its ear plugs for just you
> and your friends.
>
> For an audiophile that you seem to be, this seems very odd.
>
> To each there own I guess..................
>
> mickey
>
>
> news:Xns9E1D87E60...@94.75.214.39...
>
> > "Mickey Johnson" <micks...@derbyworks.net> wrote in
> >news:ia75ae$an9$1...@news.albasani.net:
>
> >> Actually it would be nice, if you could use your meter to set volume
> >> levels of games at the show.. There is no point of having 'volume
> >> wars' in the free play area. The games are all so loud, that the
> >> sound effects and speech just mix to a roar.
>
> > If you can get everybody to agree to give me their keys, it'll be done.
>
> > --
> > Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
> > web or on DVD?
>
> >http://www.webwidevideo.com/
I don't think there was sarcasm there...and I'd volunteer to adjust
all the games to a more reasonable level if I had all the keys too.
It's just too loud in the free play area.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
DugFreez
> always (and somewhat strangely, I might add) it's about the people first
> with the games second.
>
> So if I forget to mention anybody, it's just because I'm a serious doof.
> It's nothing intentional, just can't keep straight all the people I
> meet/re-meet/re-re-re-re-meet. It's not intentional, and it's something I
> try and work on every year, and am only marginally sucessful at best.
>
> But shouts go out to: EVERYBODY from CPM who brought games -- I'm proud of
> us, Rob Anthony, Steve Bauer, Darren, Andrew Barney (still a saint, dude),
> Steve B, Phoebe & Larry (thanks again, Phoebs!), Casey, DugFreeziePop,
> Phillippe T, Steve Tsubota, Freeman, Seaver, the OPL crew (wamsley, jim,
> larry, et all), Koi, mrbillizhere, Tom L, the whole Minnesota crew (Jason,
> grumpy, Vince, etc.), Kim Mitchell, and about fifty to a hundred others
> that I just can't recall right now.
>
> Next order of business... PICTURES! And you'll notice that we have some
> high res pics of Mr68 to start with, so we can all stop photoshopping his
> crappy facebook profile picture into things and instead use these! :D
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2bdgcmp (a.k.a. http://www.pinballmafia.net/pictures/show_pictures.php?yearmonth=Expo+
> 2010subset1 )
>
Great meeting you Korn and your games were defiantly getting a work
out.
I'd also like to hear who ended up with your BoP grand champion
score. Last I saw it was Koi. I was watching him play a 2,000,000,000+
game...very entertaining to say the least. I think Koi was also trying
to keep a high on Phoebe's Bad Cats but Larry got him knocked down and
held him off. My only flash of hope was on POTC. I played it for the
first time (ever) and scored a High Score #1 with 57,477,870. Needless
to say it didn't stick for very long but it still felt like a really
good game to me.
The room didn't seem overly loud to me but I'm sure it wouldn't have
been safe condition to spend a lot of time in. The only side effects I
seem to have from Expo is the occasional phantom hearing of "Head for
the hole!" from Mousin' Around. That sound clip now tops my "favorite
sound or sound bite from a pin" list. It had been hitting the drop
target on Whirlwind for a long time but head for the hole has topped
it.
TheKorn
> I really can't tell by your response if you are being sarcastic or
> what.
Nope, not sarcastic, just pragmatic. The only machines I have access to
are the CPM machines. Granted, that was roughly 1/4th of the machines in
the free play hall this year, but it was still only 1/4th. In order for
something like what you propose to work, you need access to ALL the
machines. So if you can solve that problem, I can take it from there.
> But from what I can tell you think this is a silly idea. From what I
> am inferring (and I could be wrong).
No, not silly at all, just I don't see it really happening. Too many hands
involved, and they'd all have to agree that this is a problem worth solving
and be comfortable with the solution. I know just from talking with others
that not all agree that this is a problem, and therefore by extension
wouldn't agree that it needs solving.
TheKorn
news:180c273f-8e65-4a96...@h7g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
It's funny how Larry explained what I was attempting to say better than I
did. His analysis is right on.
Rick Swanson
>
> I tend to go with OSHA recommendations regarding sound levels....
Let me take you back to Expo 2002 when the "BK2K from Hell" showed up
in the Exhibit Hall. Where were the "OSHA recommendations" then, my
friend? The music from that darn BK2K reverberated in my hotel room
all night long... and my room was located in the bowels of
"Skankytown". To this day I have episodes of PTSD any time I'm within
earshot of a BK2K.
Oh, and I noticed that there aren't any pictures of me on your
camera. Remember me???... I'm the guy who let you sleep in his nice
clean kingsize bed while I was off visiting Pinball Life. Did Steve
Tsubota let you sleep in his bed???... No! Yet Steve got an honorable
mention in your post... but not me. Hold this thought for Expo
2011... "No bed for you!"
As soon as I get home I'm gonna photoshop you out of my Expo2010
pictures. No, better yet, I'm gonna superimpose Bryan Kelly's face on
your body. That will be just punishment! ;-)
Rick Swanson
(Who actually loves Korn like a brother)
TheKorn
af2ed2...@y23g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
>> I tend to go with OSHA recommendations regarding sound levels....
>
> Let me take you back to Expo 2002 when the "BK2K from Hell" showed up
> in the Exhibit Hall. Where were the "OSHA recommendations" then, my
> friend? The music from that darn BK2K reverberated in my hotel room
> all night long... and my room was located in the bowels of
> "Skankytown". To this day I have episodes of PTSD any time I'm within
> earshot of a BK2K.
Hehehehe... While I know you're kidding, that's actually part of the
reason why I looked up the OSHA regs, and also part of the reason why I
(now) own a SPL meter.
I think anyone who has stayed in Skankytown more than ten minutes has
some form of (sic) PSTD. :)
> Oh, and I noticed that there aren't any pictures of me on your
> camera. Remember me???... I'm the guy who let you sleep in his nice
> clean kingsize bed while I was off visiting Pinball Life. Did Steve
> Tsubota let you sleep in his bed???... No! Yet Steve got an honorable
> mention in your post... but not me. Hold this thought for Expo
> 2011... "No bed for you!"
I was actually shocked that I didn't have any pictures of you or Mike! I
could have sworn I took some on Wednesday (*besides* the time lapse
photos) but nope, none were there. My mistake.
> As soon as I get home I'm gonna photoshop you out of my Expo2010
> pictures. No, better yet, I'm gonna superimpose Bryan Kelly's face on
> your body. That will be just punishment! ;-)
You could always just use a hamburger, since that's normally what's going
into Kelly's mouth at expo. :)
> Rick Swanson
> (Who actually loves Korn like a brother)
Right back atcha, Rick!
Mr. 68
Photoshop Rick’s face on my body. That way we can all three of us be
happy!
Kim - CARGPB #36 Who loves Korn like a sister but hates his photo
being taken.
www.WrongCrowdProductions.com
DMD Glare Guards
On Oct 27, 7:56 am, TheKorn <TheK...@TheKorn.Net> wrote:
> Rick Swanson <rns...@charter.net> wrote in news:e6864707-0d65-4a78-8ad5-
> af2ed2126...@y23g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
Rick Swanson
> Photoshop Rick’s face on my body. That way we can all three of us be
> happy!
>
LOL! Yes, I'd get the benefit of all those vitamins you religiously
take without having to actually gag them down. ;-)
Rick Swanson
cargpb6
TheKorn
news:71da1cbe-8850-4194...@l8g2000yql.googlegroups.com:
> Photoshop Rick�s face on my body. That way we can all three of us be
> happy!
>
> Kim - CARGPB #36 Who loves Korn like a sister but hates his photo
> being taken.
> www.WrongCrowdProductions.com
> DMD Glare Guards
Wait, am I doing this right? :D
http://www.thekorn.net/oh_my_god_they_killed_kimmy.jpg
(don't forget to scroll down!)
Rick Swanson
> Wait, am I doing this right? :D
>
Absolutely hilarious!!!!!!
Rick Swanson
cargpb6
Josh A.
> http://www.thekorn.net/oh_my_god_they_killed_kimmy.jpg
>
> (don't forget to scroll down!)
Oh man, that last pic reminds me of a billboard ad for a sleazy casino/
hotel that I saw posted all over Reno on my way to PPE last month:
http://www.sandsregency.com/images/lightboxes/casino2rewardslarge.jpg
djcharlie17
them... I couldn't take being back there for more than 20 minutes at a
time prior to that. Just complete audio / visual overload. The ear
plugs helped a bunch!
Thanks Korn.
Charlie
http://www.spookypinball.com
TheKorn
> I�ve always maintained that you and Bryan were both very handsome men.
> Now we have the evidence.
You're right, the first picture is WAY better in comparison. :)
I couldn't help but notice that Bryan's face really didn't change all that
much outside of the glasses style. Are you sure you're not Bryan's evil
doppleganger?
Bryan Kelly
Don't get me involved in all this shit. I was the quite, polite one
all weekend. ;-)
Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins
On Oct 27, 1:40 pm, "Mr. 68" <M...@q.com> wrote:
> I’ve always maintained that you and Bryan were both very handsome men.
> Now we have the evidence.
>
> Kim - CARGPB #36 =)www.WrongCrowdProductions.com
> DMD Glare Guards
>
TheKorn
795c4b...@30g2000yql.googlegroups.com:
> HEY!!!!
>
> Don't get me involved in all this shit. I was the quite, polite one
> all weekend. ;-)
You haven't been quiet since 5 minutes before you left the womb. :)
Bryan Kelly
Vince.
Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins
On Oct 27, 2:55 pm, TheKorn <TheK...@TheKorn.Net> wrote:
> Bryan Kelly <bskel...@aol.com> wrote in news:bee9322b-fed0-4be9-9209-
> 795c4b023...@30g2000yql.googlegroups.com:
