Let's All Discuss - "Flow"
sdknews
It seems there's been an awful lot of discussion lately about "flow" and
which games have it. I know I have what I feel is a good definition but it
seems there are several different concepts and some differing opinions. I
thought it might be fun to discuss...I could be wrong. :)
I define Flow as follows: A game more based on timing than pure shot making.
Generally this entails the rapid succession of shots with the key being that
such shots usually return the ball back to either flipper. A lot of
practice on a "Flow" type machine will find you almost feeling like if you
hit the first shot, you can hit two or three more with your eyes closed
because you know how long it takes for the ball to return to the flippers.
The ball stays in motion most of the time with very little need for cradling
(or at least far less than machines without said flow). A game with good
flow has you thinking one or two shots ahead much of the time...."I'm going
to do this...then this...and then this."
A game without flow has you wanting to cradle the ball almost as much as
possible. When cradled, there are usually an array of choices with some
unsurity as to the best course. This is due to the fact you don't know
which shots will be available to you...you may have six or seven shots with
the left flipper before you even get a chance to hit the shot you set up for
the right. These games reward accuracy, shot-making, and decision-making
more than timing and combinations.
Thoughts? Flames?
Darren
BRIAN
metallik
BRIAN wrote:
> Steve F'n Ritchie
ceckitti
BRIAN wrote:
> Steve F'n Ritchie
What he said. ;-)
I agree with the OP. 3 of the 6 games i own are deff. examples of
"flow". T2, AFM, and of course DM. The loops on these games are deadly.
Half the time you cant even see the ball exiting the loops, you just go
by reflex on the next strike which most of the time will end up with
another loop shot or a ramp.
Tom
DWGoett
download mode [i think that's the one] when you have to hit left orbit, then
left ramp, then right orbit then right ramp then stick the crazy bobs shot.
if done correctly, the ball is going past the shot even before the game
tells you where to shoot it.
another example is AFM with the jackpot shots and hitting the roving arrow
for suuuuper jackpoooot. you have to know timing and how long the arrow
will stay lit and get the ball to the correct flipper to make the shot.
Things like that - especially when you nail it - is what pinball is all
about for me. it just never gets old. those are the games with staying
power.
Dan
"sdknews" <sdk...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hAfzg.2661$zV6.2615@trnddc03...
GarageDoor
RS - no flow
ToM - Lots of Flow, especially left orbit, inner orbit around trunk,
both staircases, and right orbit if I could ever get it to orbit. It
always seems to catch something beofre it enters the rollover area.
Rarely do I get to hear the clock keep counting up. The only
flowbreaker for me on this game is the stupid magnet. I know it's
necessary though to get the ball back to the left flipper. I also
don't like the flow-breaker of the vanishig ball. Sometimes when I am
trying to run up letters for the "Theatre Multiball" the vanish ball
gets lit and steals my ball and takes me out of "the flow" towards the
"Theatre Multiball." Other than those two things the game has much
flow.
NBAFB - ok flow around far left orbit shot, very fast returning to
right flipper. Left ramp when the ball actually goes around instead of
spitting back down because the turn is too tight, has good flow and
speed. Same with right ramp, fast and returns to flipper quickly for
good "flow." The NBAFB left ramp seems like such a tight turn the ball
can't always make the turn. Gomez also seemed to design this way with
MB when it goes up the right ramp(?) and takes that quick "S" turn
around the mummy. On a solid flip the ball is sometimes traveling too
fast and it stops, backs up, then proceeds down the ramp. Those two
elements are "flow busters!"
Truck Stop - decent flow if i could get the top left flipper to work.
Then I think it would be fast.
Haunted House - dunno never played it, bought it broken and is still
that way.
Mata Hari - not much flow, inless the orbits get going, but my flippers
need strength they usually can't keep some good orbits going.
FT - very good flow in the boat and right orbit. I don't like the left
orbit going into the saucer though. Would rather have an orbit than a
saucer. So, FT in my opinion would have much more flow without that
saucer. OR, at least a diverter that would keep the orbit going until
something gets lit for the saucer then send it in there to collect the
award. That FT saucer is kinda like vanishing ball in ToM. They are
both "Flow Busters!"
Danny
of flow!
-Danny
mcbla...@verizon.net
CraigC
the ball back. all good games dont need to be loop city or it will get
really really boring.
-c
TheKorn
news:hAfzg.2661$zV6.2615@trnddc03:
> I define Flow as follows: A game more based on timing than pure shot
> making.
Technically those are one in the same, but that's arguing semantics. :)
> Generally this entails the rapid succession of shots with the
> key being that such shots usually return the ball back to either
> flipper. A lot of practice on a "Flow" type machine will find you
> almost feeling like if you hit the first shot, you can hit two or
> three more with your eyes closed because you know how long it takes
> for the ball to return to the flippers. The ball stays in motion most
> of the time with very little need for cradling (or at least far less
> than machines without said flow). A game with good flow has you
> thinking one or two shots ahead much of the time...."I'm going to do
> this...then this...and then this."
You missed a key part of the definition... In order to be considered
flow, the ball must enter one place and exit another in an uninterrupted
motion without a tremendous loss of speed. Orbits are the most well
known example of flow, but also WhiiteWater's up the middle ramp past the
upper flipper and back down to the lower flipper definitely qualifies.
> A game without flow has you wanting to cradle the ball almost as much
> as possible. When cradled, there are usually an array of choices with
> some unsurity as to the best course. This is due to the fact you
> don't know which shots will be available to you...you may have six or
> seven shots with the left flipper before you even get a chance to hit
> the shot you set up for the right. These games reward accuracy,
> shot-making, and decision-making more than timing and combinations.
Don't know about *that*. There are plenty of flow games where I'll
cradle a ball to set up specific shots. (Whiitewater being one of them!)
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
lightguy
Daren; Did end up at Lou' s party where he had T2. I thought Popaduik
(sp?) had flow figured out ! T2 was a notch up. VERY impressed ! For
some reason I've never been attracted to T2 as the theme, coloring,
backglass, whatever, didn't "do " it for me. Try it you'll like it.
flynnibus
TheKorn wrote:
> You missed a key part of the definition... In order to be considered
> flow, the ball must enter one place and exit another in an uninterrupted
> motion without a tremendous loss of speed.
Endless looping orbits are so one-dimensional tho. I much prefer the
notion of high-speed shots that don't necessarily return to the same
spot! The idea that you can 'move' the ball through the shots if you
make the correct sequence. More of a 'combo' defintion w/speed. Or
the concept of flow in that you can setup shots if you make the correct
shots (ramps that feed specific shots, or ramp shots that feed the
opposite inlane)
DM: Quick Freeze to claw ramp to left orbit
AFM: combos through the ramps and orbits
TAF: 3 way combo
...
Basically alot of shots that feed the next shot w/o the 'stop'
animation or ball hold. (I guess that's the portion that robs TAF from
an otherwise continuous shot fest).
Which is one of my complaints about LOTR.. even with the locks empty..
sometimes the stop on the sword ramp stops the ball.. which I don't get
at all. That 'breaks the flow' for me :)
TheKorn
@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>> You missed a key part of the definition... In order to be considered
>> flow, the ball must enter one place and exit another in an
uninterrupted
>> motion without a tremendous loss of speed.
>
> Endless looping orbits are so one-dimensional tho. I much prefer the
> notion of high-speed shots that don't necessarily return to the same
> spot!
But I didn't *SAY* that! I even gave an example (the whiitewater center
ramp) that explicitly *doesn't* do that!
(And I agree with you; endless loops are ZZzzzz, which is why I've never
given Demo Man the time of day.)
> Basically alot of shots that feed the next shot w/o the 'stop'
> animation or ball hold. (I guess that's the portion that robs TAF from
> an otherwise continuous shot fest).
You're kind of wandering into a grey area here. A bounce pass is *not*
flow. (extreme example, but I think you see what I mean.)
> Which is one of my complaints about LOTR.. even with the locks empty..
> sometimes the stop on the sword ramp stops the ball.. which I don't get
> at all. That 'breaks the flow' for me :)
That's a game malfunction; the game under normal circumstances has the
whole rolling ball lock thing going on. Not *exactly* flow, but a good
approximation.
Superpin Al
I have been thinking about flow too after the PoTC talk recently. I
don't feel nonstop ball movement is needed to have flow, having said
that I will say I don't think PoTC has much flow, takes too long to get
a flipper on the ball again many times. This is not a knock on the game
just pointing that out from my experience of playing it one evening.
I feel you can define flow in defferent ways. I'll use two of my
machines as examples.
JD-nonstop ball movement and 4 flippers keep you on your toes
constantly. The only break you get is locking a ball in the planet. Not
even pops to slow things down.
TSPP-nearly every shot sends the ball to a flipper. Granted there is
some slowdown if Otto or Mystery is lit but that is minor IMO. The game
has excellent combos and you are able to get a flipper on the ball
again pretty quickly especially since there are five.
These are two drastically different games but each has a type of flow
IMO. Nonstop flow(JD) and combo flow(TSPP) if you will.
Al
TheKorn
news:1154359322.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I feel you can define flow in defferent ways. I'll use two of my
> machines as examples.
> JD-nonstop ball movement and 4 flippers keep you on your toes
> constantly. The only break you get is locking a ball in the planet.
> Not even pops to slow things down.
Agree, though the sniper hole doesn't have any flow to it. :) (minor;
not *everything* can flow!)
> TSPP-nearly every shot sends the ball to a flipper. Granted there is
> some slowdown if Otto or Mystery is lit but that is minor IMO. The
> game has excellent combos and you are able to get a flipper on the
> ball again pretty quickly especially since there are five.
Sorry Al, I know you like TSPP and all, but that's a perfect example of a
game that has almost *no* flow.
Hit the ball to Otto. The ball *stops*, and eventually the game kicks it
into the right lane. Then hit the ball to the left ramp. The ball
*stops*, and eventually a VUK kicks the ball to the upper playfield. Hit
the TV, and the ball *stops* and eventually lets you take a shot at the
couch. Miss that, the ball eventually bounces around and drains on the
monorail, where you hit the ball into the garage. The ball *stops*, and
the game eventually kicks it to the upper playfield.
That's not flow. Any time in a description you write "and the ball
STOPS", it's automatically not flow. (Hence why WPT has no flow... The
ball stops. And stops. And stops.)
POTC has almost no flow, either. The left lane shot eventually leads to
a VUK and the ball *stops*. (...eventually the game kicks it to the
UPF.) The center shot leads to a saucer and the ball *stops*. The
mixmaster shot the ball is held (virtual stoppage). The JACK shot flows
back to the flippers, and the far right lane flows into the bumpers,
but... meh. :)
The lack or presence of flow doesn't make or break a game. But it
*usually* doens't hurt it. But like everything, you can go to far
(*cough*demoman*cough*) the other way, too.
flynnibus
TheKorn wrote:
> But I didn't *SAY* that! I even gave an example (the whiitewater center
> ramp) that explicitly *doesn't* do that!
> (And I agree with you; endless loops are ZZzzzz, which is why I've never
> given Demo Man the time of day.)
No, I was more replying to your 'orbits' example as a prime example.
My point was smooth orbits alone wouldn't qualify for me. More so
smooth fast shots that lead to other shots. Example, if you just had
the right orbit on Getaway alone.. That's a fast timed shot.. but
smacking that endlessly doesn't qualify alone I think.
> > Basically alot of shots that feed the next shot w/o the 'stop'
> > animation or ball hold. (I guess that's the portion that robs TAF from
> > an otherwise continuous shot fest).
>
> You're kind of wandering into a grey area here. A bounce pass is *not*
> flow. (extreme example, but I think you see what I mean.)
Don't need the bounce pass.. talking more that the center ramp from
left flip.. feeding right flip.. to chair.. repeat.. or adding the
bookcase at the end of it. But the mode start 'stops' it.. STTNG is
another game (if you avoid the center or NZ) where you can really whip
it around hitting various shots. You can 'walk the playfield' in one
continous motion.
> > Which is one of my complaints about LOTR.. even with the locks empty..
> > sometimes the stop on the sword ramp stops the ball.. which I don't get
> > at all. That 'breaks the flow' for me :)
>
> That's a game malfunction; the game under normal circumstances has the
> whole rolling ball lock thing going on. Not *exactly* flow, but a good
> approximation.
Unless I have a dead switch I haven't noticed the game is compensating
for no.. Some shots go through unaltered.. but some shots do get
interupted as they run down. I should document it with some testing.
But its been an annoyance more then a breakage :) When there are balls
in the lock, it always feeds it smoothly (releasing the locked ball
fast enough to approximate the continuous ball flow). Since its always
worked with the balls locked, I figured it was some sw thing just in
that particular shot setup.
azpinlawyer
azpinlawyer
To get from right flipper to left (for HIO), hit left orbit, left ramp
with UR flipper, then hit the HIO shot. That's flow. Some games have
flow that isn't especially useful, like NBAFB, or like ANY game with
right and left ramps and/or orbits.
TheKorn
news:1154362830....@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Sorry--I got interrupted by actual "work." Here's an example from
> NGG:
> To get from right flipper to left (for HIO), hit left orbit, left
> ramp
> with UR flipper, then hit the HIO shot. That's flow. Some games have
> flow that isn't especially useful, like NBAFB, or like ANY game with
> right and left ramps and/or orbits.
I don't know about that... 90% of the time if I want to set up a shot on
khan or the inner loop on shadow, I'll do it by shooting the left orbit.
Seems plenty useful to me! :)
TheKorn
news:1154362188.2...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
>> > Which is one of my complaints about LOTR.. even with the locks
>> > empty.. sometimes the stop on the sword ramp stops the ball.. which
>> > I don't get at all. That 'breaks the flow' for me :)
>>
>> That's a game malfunction; the game under normal circumstances has
>> the whole rolling ball lock thing going on. Not *exactly* flow, but
>> a good approximation.
>
> Unless I have a dead switch I haven't noticed the game is compensating
> for no..
CraigC had the exact same problem on his LOTR... The lock would
sometimes stop the ball. The switch wasn't dead then, either. IIRC the
problem turned out to be that a switch was making contact, just *late*.
C'mon, get in there and get your hands dirty; play with it! Can't make
it worse! (Well, I guess you probably *could*... :) )
> Some shots go through unaltered.. but some shots do get
> interupted as they run down. I should document it with some testing.
> But its been an annoyance more then a breakage :) When there are
> balls in the lock, it always feeds it smoothly (releasing the locked
> ball fast enough to approximate the continuous ball flow). Since its
> always worked with the balls locked, I figured it was some sw thing
> just in that particular shot setup.
Sounds like the first sword lock switch is making the connection very
'late' in the cycle. I'd adjust it so that it's more sensitive, and your
problem will probably go away.
Pint...@gmail.com
CFTBL: This is one of my love/hate machines. I timed an actual
occourance of over 15 flipper shots that hit nothing but "thunk".
LOTR: This is the master of missed shots. I can safely say I can hit
every dead post or blue rubber lane guide pad on this game without even
trying. I've run out timers just trying to get one decent shot lined
up. (OK, so I suck...enough said). ;-)
T3: Better, but still a lot of thunk.
Mario
Pinthetic
KarlZona
sdknews wrote:
> It seems there's been an awful lot of discussion lately about "flow"
I found her a bit annyoing on the TV show "Alice" and I would have kept
her hidden in the back of the kitchen at Mel's Diner.
"Well kiss my grits!!!!" (Say like Flow on Alice)
Karl.
Chuck
game to flow nicely you have to open up the orbits by completing them
both. Or, just one if you only like to flow in one direction.
And keep Super Jets from running.
Without completing the orbits, the ball is stopped (not quite like an
eject hole or scoop, but it slows considerably) at the inlanes, drops
to the bumpers and falls into the scoop (where it legitimately stops)
or gets bumped out the side to the right orbit, where it lazily rolls
down to the flippers.
Ironically, once you complete the orbits, attempts at exploiting flow
by using the ramps leads to Total Annihilation, the completion of which
closes the orbits once again because all those shot progressions are
reset.
Total Annihilation flows well unless Super Jets are running (IIRC all
balls stop at the upper inlanes when Super Jets are running); ditto for
three-ball multiball.
If you want to increase the flow of the game, set all locks to "hard"
which requires a center ramp shot to light each one in succession.
AFM flows in fits and starts for me, but then again that may just be
how I attack the game from a strategy perspective.
azpinlawyer
qfrost
to the flippers, that's flow. If you shoot the ball and play stops
while something happens, it's not flow.
Both have their uses. - Q
Superpin Al
What about PoTC where play doesn't stop, ball keeps moving, but does
not return to the flippers all that quickly at times? There's flow yet
I don't get to participate. :(
I guess this is like the old 'shopped' debates. You define it however
you like there is not a right or wrong answer just differences of
opinion.
Al
GarageDoor
orbit seems to get faster, increasing the pace of the game. It seems
that I have to hit the ball higher off the flipper with each successful
and faster orbit. I get great satisfaction out of spelling "Theatre"
in ToM on seven consecutive shots. Same with getting the clock to
midnight with successive shots. It's tough to do, but very rewarding
with each orbit made.