TECH: Gottlieb System 3 Ball Release Issue
Adam Pinball
Please help, I will buy you a pizza if you can solve this problem :-)
About 70% of the time the game works just fine, (It wouldnt be a
challenge if the problem wasn't intermittent), but sometime the ball
is not released into the shooter lane from the trough. Those of you
who are familiar with how these Gottlieb System 3's release the ball
know that there is a knuckle that is retracted to unblock the path to
the shooter lane. In order to work properly this knuckle must be
pulled in for a certain amount of time to allow gravity to pull the
ball out.
When my machine fails what happens is the solenoid that retracts the
knuckle "stutters" and only half fires; it does this 3 times rapidly
"click-click-click" and then nothing, no ball is able to come out
because the knuckle is never retracted fully and even if it was it
does not hold in long enough for the ball to roll down. You can hear
this happening and I have removed the apron and can physically see it
when it happens.
It does not seem to care which ball number it is and sometimes it
fails when adding a ball to play for multiball. When this happens the
only thing I can do is open the door and slam tilt the machine to
reset it (or power it off and on again obviously). Again, it only
does this maybe 30% of the time and it NEVER does it during test
mode. I have sat in test mode and fired this solenoid maybe 30 times
in a row and it never screws up...only to start a game and immediately
it does it.
Another problem that I believe is related and may provide a clue is
that the outhole kicker does the same thing sometimes. When this
happens it doesnt kick the ball hard enough to roll up the trough and
into the holding spot when the game detects the ball is still in the
outhole it simply kicks it again...no big deal UNLESS you are
currently playing multiball when this happens. In this situation the
second time it detects the first ball in the outhole it thinks it is
the second ball and ends your ball.
I have a spare driver board and for the sake of troubleshooting I have
already swapped it out. The result is the same...no change.
Please help, seriously frustrated.
Thanks
John Robertson
This sounds like a problem with power or continuity in the coil and its
control wiring. I'd check the coil first to make sure the enamel wire is
properly cleaned and has a good solder connection to the lugs, then I'd
check the edge connectors for collapsed pins, if this was System 80 I'd
also check that the machine screws on the driver transistors were tight
- but you already substituted a second driver board, and the like.
Something is making almost a good enough connection, but the slightest
flex and the connection weakens...
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
c...@provide.net
What john said. sounds like where the coil winding
solders to the lug is intermittent. I see this a lot on
games, and at first look it appears all it good. but
if you gently tug on the coil winding sometimes you'll
see it's a cold solder joint or the wire is broken or
the enamel paint on the wire isn't making a good
contact to the lug.
The easy approach is to just replace the coil.
Or you can "fix" the coil.
Rondondo
Pinball Plus
I would tie all white wires together on transformer area(ground wires)
You may have a ground dropping out at times. More info and pics on
Marvins site.
Adam Pinball
It makes sense that the part I really have not tested myself is the
coil, so I should take a closer look at that (and I will today as soon
as I am off work). However, the fact that a similar event is
happening to the outhole solenoid made me think that the problem would
lie elsewhere...Of course it is possible that these two problems are
independent of each other and it is also still possible that they are
both suffering from the same problem. Either way it seems clear that
I do need to check those and it will at least give me something else
to do rather than continue to pull my hair out.
I will report back with my findings tonight. Thank you for the
suggestions.
Adam Pinball
I have never seen the problem occur while in solenoid test mode. I
have tested with balls in the trough and without, same result. This
is the other reason I have not blamed the coil itself yet...If the
coil is the problem you would think I would have seen this happen
while in test mode.
Adam Pinball
I thought about doing this and I ended up pulling out the ground bus
from the system to look for cold solder joints or other issues. The
board seemed to be in great shape with good solder points and no
resistance on any of the pins, since I had it out I re-flowed a little
new solder on the board and put everything back. I still had the same
problem. If the coil check/swap does not reveal anything I will
perform the ground modification.
John Robertson
If the problem is two coils are intermittent then I would check where
these both have their common B+ power connection. Perhaps there is a
common connection that is intermittent...
AVP Pinball Division
news:79298342-5034-4d9c...@j13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>I have a Cue Ball Wizard that is driving me NUTS with this issue.
Hmm... I'm thinking switch issue. Outhole, trough, shooter lane, safety
interlock on coin door.
One other thing to remember is that System 3 strobe lines do double duty.
Switch and lamp strobes are the same. A bad diode will wreak havoc on the
matrix and confuse the hell out of the game. Start by checking the diodes
on the switches I listed after checking the switches' clearance and
operation.
--
Pistol Pete
AVP Pinball Division
Towson, MD
410-583-9200
www.AVPpinball.com
ser...@AVPpinball.com
Adam Pinball
>
> - Show quoted text -
First let me tell everyone here thank you for the ideas and
suggestions. You have no idea how much I needed someone to talk to
about this problem. This brainstorming has already given me new
motivation to dig into this.
Now...the plot thickens...
As soon as my kids went to bed I popped the hood on the Cue Ball
Wizard and started looking at the ideas you all have posted. I
checked coils and coil diodes and everything looked good, reconnected
the wires and started a game, sure enough the problem popped up right
away(seems to be doing it more frequently now). This time however I
coincidently had the flippers buttons held down when the ball drained
and when the machine wigged out and failed to kick the ball into the
shooter lane I noticed the flippers flipped on and off on their own
(while I was holding the buttons down) maybe 2 or three times in rapid
succession.
I started a new game and this time before the ball would launch I
would hold the flipper buttons down. As far as I know, on all Gtb
System 3 games the flippers go dead between balls, like when the game
is scoring your bonus and whatnot. As soon as the ball is released
the flippers turn back on and if you are holding the buttons down they
immediately flip up till you release the buttons. So as I am holding
the flippers at the start of each new ball this is what would happen:
40% of the time the flippers would flip up and stay up just like they
should and the ball would kick out; 30% of the time they would flip up
and then immediately go dead for a split second and then pop back up,
the ball would also kick out just fine; then 30% of the time the
flippers would flip up, go dead, flip up, go dead, flip up, go dead,
flip up...no ball would kick out.
It is pretty obvious at this point the "game over" relay (Q) is also
suffering some sort of stutter at the same time that the ball is
supposed to be kicking out. I pulled out the playfield so I could see
the relay and started a few games, sure enough I could verify this was
the case.
Next, just for giggles I put a rubber band on this relay to lock it on
to see if the problem would go away (for troubleshooting purposes).
Obviously this kept the flippers working at ALL times but after a few
test games the ball would fail to kick out still, so I pulled off the
rubber band. Before the band came off I noticed that I could still
hear a relay clicking on and off when this problem would occur. I
looked under the playfield and saw that the "motor on" relay (B) was
also doing the same thing it is located under the playfield close to
the front near the outhole.
So...as of right now the problem seems to be affecting at a minimum,
the Q and B relays, the outhole solenoid and the ball release
solenoid. Q and B are on +20 volts and the outhole and ball release
solenoids are on +48 volts so that is not common. What IS common
however is all four of these solenoids are controlled by transistors
Q25 (B relay), Q28 (ball release), Q29 (outhole), and Q32 (Q relay)
which are all connected to the same 74HC273 chip (U4) on the driver
board.
This scares me because as I said I already replaced the driver board
with working spare I had and it leaves me with the following
questions:
1) Would you all agree that this chip could be my problem?
2) Could something else in this machine be frying that U4 chip?
3) Is there any way to test this chip with a DMM?
4) Should I try yet another System 3 driver board? I have access to
two other working system 3 games in my collection (Wipe Out and SMB:
Mushroom World)
Please don't give up on me yet! After all, you did manage to read this
thread through this far :-)
Adam Pinball
wrote:
> "Adam Pinball" <adam.pinb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Actually the outhole and trough switches are where I started
troubleshooting. Both of these are microswitches (probably the only
two non leaf switches in the whole game) and they seemed to test fine
in the switch test mode of the diagnostics. The shooter lane switch
is a leaf switch, it also tests fine and is well adjusted. I tested
each of the diodes on the diode board (the System 3 games do not have
the diodes on the switches directly) with a DMM and they tested just
fine.
c...@provide.net
The Game Over relay turns the power
on to the game's coils like the flippers
and bumpers etc. so if that stutters,
that's the problem we need to address.
for giggles reset the ribbon cable going
between the CPU and driver board.
hey i'm just reaching here, but it's
worth a try...
John Robertson
Two words "Ground Upgrade".
http://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System3
Until you've done that there is no point in troubleshooting further.
Corvette Bob
I've been following this thread because I have a System 3 Stargate
and am trying to learn more about them. I've heard of "ground
upgrades" for Black Hole and Haunted House pins, but never for a
System 3 pin. Can you guys or anyone else explain what a ground
upgrade for a System 3 Gottlieb is? Thanks for your help.
Bob
John Robertson
http://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System3
Gottlieb improved the ground connections over time, but it never hurts
to do these...
Adam Pinball
Ok...I will pick up the parts and do this tonight. Check for update
in the morning.
Adam Pinball
>
> - Show quoted text -
The ribbon cable was reseated when I swapped the driver board a few
days ago. I can try it again if the ground mods have no effect. I
was thinking along the same lines as you about the Game Over relay. I
figured if that thing is stuttering, perhaps that is why the other
solenoids are stuttering at the same time since it controls power to
the solenoids.
It was for this reason that I rubber banded the Game Over relay in the
"on" position. I wanted to test this theory. However, even when
forced to stay on like this the problem still occurred with the other
solenoids. This led me to conclude that the Game Over relay was
simply another symptom of the same problem affecting the ball release
and other coils and not the cause...
In other words whatever is causing the Game Over relay to stutter is
also causing the other affected coils to stutter. If my logic is
flawed here, feel free to point it out.
Adam Pinball
Did the modification, no change....
Sigh.
I put the old driver board back since there is apparently nothing
wrong with it.
I also made a small video if you want to see what happens when it
screws up. In the video I am holding one of the flipper buttons down
too so you can see what I was referring to: http://tinypic.com/r/o8xxr8/7
Gott Lieb?
may have an intermittent fuse. It's *extremely* rare, but I've seen
it.
Jim
Gott Lieb?
the ball release coil.
Jim
AVP Pinball Division
>I made a video too so you can see what I was referring to:
>http://tinypic.com/r/o8xxr8/7...
It's much easier to read when all of the previous posts are trimmed...
Remove the bottom arch. so that others can see the pinballs in the trough.
Move the camera back to get an overall view of the flipper and ball kickout.
Don't move the camera as you start a game as the frame rate makes for a
terrible blur.
What happens when you start a two-to-four player game?
I still think you have a switch issue. You've swapped boards with no luck
so it's not them. Gottlieb System 3s have the switch and lamp strobes doing
double duty. You'll never see a switch error in switch test because the
controlled lamps are off. You will see strange switch matrix issues during
regular game play. When the lamps are on it only takes one switch or lamp
with a shorted or missing diode and you're hosed.
--
Pistol Pete
AVP Pinball Division
Towson, MD
410-583-9200
www.AVPpinball.com
ser...@AVPpinball.com
Adam Pinball
wrote:
> "Adam Pinball" <adam.pinb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I am setting up the tripod now so I dont have to make videos one
handed and get rid of the blur. I took off the lower apron and will
make a new video right now.
I see what you are saying about the controlled lamps and switch
matrix...All the switch diodes are on the diode board right? I did
check those but I have not checked the bulb diodes which are on the
sockets themselves. Seems like a daunting task to check all of those
but I will if I have to.
Standby for new video...
Adam Pinball
same frustrating pinball problem! :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-S0D8kXvfM
It just occurred to me that I could test the switch matrix /
controlled lamps theory by disconnecting the controlled lamps from the
game if they all run through one connector. I am at work and cannot
verify that they do go through all one connector but I will look for
that when I get home tonight. If I find such a connector I should be
able to unplug it, start up a game without the controlled lamps and
have it play through just fine, right?
John Robertson
When you have the machine in the state where the ball is not released
into play (as in your second video) immediately put the game into switch
test and check if the game is recognizing the three trough switches. I
think you will find it is not. The same with your problem on multiball -
use the switch test to see what the computer is seeing when the problems
manifest themselves...
It is looking more like a problem with switches than anything else at
this point.
AVP Pinball Division
> Here is the new video I made. Higher production values but with the
> same frustrating pinball problem! :-)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-S0D8kXvfM
Try adjusting that switch in the trough where the third ball sits. It looks
very low. Roll a pinball over it in switch test to be sure the switch is
triggered properly.
paragon66x
> > When you have the machine in the state where the ball is not released
> > into play (as in your second video) immediately put the game into switch
> > test and check if the game is recognizing the three trough switches. I
> > think you will find it is not. The same with your problem on multiball -
> > use the switch test to see what the computer is seeing when the problems
> > manifest themselves...
>
> > It is looking more like a problem with switches than anything else at
> > this point.
>
> > John :-#)#
>
> FYI, there is only ONE trough switch in this game and it is located
> under ball #3. Only other switch in the trough is the outhole switch.
>
> As far as the multiball issue, I am pretty sure that it is the "half
> kick" of the outhole solenoid that is causing it. Watch that solenoid
> right as I roll the ball in the trough at 2:15 into the video. You
> will see it half kick the ball up the trough; then when the ball rolls
> back down it triggers the outhole switch again and this time the game
> thinks this is the second ball draining and ends ball 3 entirely.
I can't tell you how many times I have found the center trough switch
is sticky and needs replaced on System 3 games. These are notorious
for collecting dirt (my findings anyway) and look like they are
cycling, but in fact are not some of the time. The arm switch lever
rasises up, but not far enough to release the contacts. I would look
all the trough/outhole switches over and make sure this phenomenon is
not occuring (cycle them by hand and do it more than once). Hope that
helps - John
Adam Pinball
> When you have the machine in the state where the ball is not released
> into play (as in your second video) immediately put the game into switch
> test and check if the game is recognizing the three trough switches. I
> think you will find it is not. The same with your problem on multiball -
> use the switch test to see what the computer is seeing when the problems
> manifest themselves...
> It is looking more like a problem with switches than anything else at
> this point.
> John :-#)#
I will do this tonight and try to get it on video too.
Adam Pinball
> is sticky and needs replaced on System 3 games. These are notorious
> for collecting dirt (my findings anyway) and look like they are
> cycling, but in fact are not some of the time. The arm switch lever
> rasises up, but not far enough to release the contacts. I would look
> all the trough/outhole switches over and make sure this phenomenon is
> not occuring (cycle them by hand and do it more than once). Hope that
>
> - Show quoted text -
As I said, I have been in and out of test mode since this problem
started and have checked these switches. I don't remember if I
checked the trough switch by rolling a ball over it or not (and
obviously it works just fine some of time anyway) so it is worth a
second look. I will do this and document it tonight. I will also
check my Wipe Out and other system three games to see if they use the
same switch and trough setup. if they do I might just pull the switch
from a working game and install in this one to test.
Thanks to everyone who is sticking with me on this.
John Robertson
Adam, be sure NOT to move any balls after the problem presents itself.
You must go to switch test as quickly as you can to capture the
situation exactly as the CPU sees things...
AVP Pinball Division
news:ilti8b$hrg$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I can't read the label, is Cue Ball Wizard a three ball or four ball game?
Gott Lieb?
time.
Jim
On Mar 17, 3:36 pm, "AVP Pinball Division" <serv...@AVPpinball.com>
wrote:
> "AVP Pinball Division" <serv...@AVPpinball.com> wrote in messagenews:ilti8b$hrg$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
> > "Adam Pinball" <adam.pinb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:f568115d-86b9-4dc0...@q12g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> >> Here is the new video I made. Higher production values but with the
> >> same frustrating pinball problem! :-)
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-S0D8kXvfM
>
> > Try adjusting that switch in the trough where the third ball sits. It
> > looks very low. Roll a pinball over it in switch test to be sure the
> > switch is triggered properly.
>
> > --
> > Pistol Pete
> > AVP Pinball Division
> > Towson, MD
> > 410-583-9200
> >www.AVPpinball.com
> > serv...@AVPpinball.com
>
> I can't read the label, is Cue Ball Wizard a three ball or four ball game?
>
> --
> Pistol Pete
> AVP Pinball Division
> Towson, MD
> 410-583-9200www.AVPpinball.com
> serv...@AVPpinball.com
Gott Lieb?
the outhole switch twice. In turn, the game thought 2 balls had
drained. Between the ball release coil, the outhole coil, and the
game over relay all having the same problem of a short coil pulse, I
would rule out the trough switch and outhole switch. The key reason
is because the game over relay is having this problem. I'm really
leaning towards the source of your problems are a power issue or
ground issue. The ground issue was ruled out, so let's deal with the
power side. The only thing these coils *all* have on common is the
power sources pass through connector A9J8. I would inspect both sides
of this connector closely, take it a apart, and securely seat it
again. IIRC, A9J8 is right around where the head would hinge down.
But, before reseating the connector, see if other coils with power
passing through this connector (motor relay and knocker) have a
"stutter" issue. Equally, see if any coils not passing through this
connector have the issue. It appears that they don't.
Jim
Gott Lieb?
of your video. The left flipper "jumped" w/o the cabinet button being
pressed. Am I seeing things?
Jim
On Mar 17, 2:06 pm, Adam Pinball <adam.pinb...@gmail.com> wrote:
Adam Pinball
>
> Adam, be sure NOT to move any balls after the problem presents itself.
> You must go to switch test as quickly as you can to capture the
> situation exactly as the CPU sees things...
>
> John :-#)#
This is a summary of what I did last night:
I played the game until it would not release the ball. As soon as it
did this I slam tilted the machine via the switch on the door (the
game must be in Game Over mode before it will enter Test) and checked
the switch test. The trough switch was detected just fine.
I then pulled the same trough switch out of my Wipe Out game and
swapped it. Wipe Out continued to play fine and CBW continued to
screw up.
Next I swapped unsoldered and swapped the outhole switches...same
result, no change.
Then I unplugged the controlled lamp returns from the driver board (P4
if I remember correctly) and played a game with no controlled lamps
hooked up. I was hoping to eliminate any failed lamp diodes by doing
this. Again same result, no change.
I pulled the switch diode bus again as well and tested every diode and
trace again just to be thorough.
I am pretty convinced it is not a switch issue or lamp diode problem
at this point.
Adam Pinball
> Another thing I just saw, which I thought was interesting was at 5:08
> of your video. The left flipper "jumped" w/o the cabinet button being
> pressed. Am I seeing things?
>
> Jim
I have fresh rubber on those flippers and I am pretty sure the way I
grabbed the ball put a little friction on the rubber and moved the
flipper a bit...it does look like a phantom flip though :-)
Adam Pinball
> Yes, the outhole coil only pulsing slightly allowed the ball to hit
> the outhole switch twice. In turn, the game thought 2 balls had
> drained. Between the ball release coil, the outhole coil, and the
> game over relay all having the same problem of a short coil pulse, I
> would rule out the trough switch and outhole switch. The key reason
> is because the game over relay is having this problem. I'm really
> leaning towards the source of your problems are a power issue or
> ground issue. The ground issue was ruled out, so let's deal with the
> power side. The only thing these coils *all* have on common is the
> power sources pass through connector A9J8. I would inspect both sides
> of this connector closely, take it a apart, and securely seat it
> again. IIRC, A9J8 is right around where the head would hinge down.
>
> But, before reseating the connector, see if other coils with power
> passing through this connector (motor relay and knocker) have a
> "stutter" issue. Equally, see if any coils not passing through this
> connector have the issue. It appears that they don't.
>
> Jim
I think you are on the right track here Jim and this is where I feel
the problem lies. I have complete confidence in the ground system in
this machine. Even before doing John's modification I had pulled that
ground bus and checked it over very closely. I did the modification
they way John recommended (as opposed to Clay's method) and like John
I used plenty of solder on the wires, then crimped, then soldered the
terminal to the wires.
The motor relay (relay B) DOES have this problem. It took me a while
to notice but it also stutters when these other solenoids have
problems. The knocker I am not sure about but if it is stuttering I
wouldn't have noticed because it wouldn't hit hard enough to knock on
anything. I will check this out plus the connector you mentioned.
AVP Pinball Division
news:c25f9b30-db2b-4070...@cu4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> 3 ball, which is odd, because I thought all GTBs were 4 ball by this
> time.
>
> Jim
Ok, thanks. Back to the OP's questions...
Was the game like this from day one or did it suddenly develop this problem?
The game not only has issues with the stutter of the coils but also has ball
count issues. It does end multiball early as seen in your video. That's
different from when the game gets stuck because a ball didn't kick out.
Coils don't affect the way the game counts balls-in-play. Switches do.
I still say a switch issue. There is no way you can separate the signal
strobe lines for the lamps and switches.
There is no way you can unplug the strobe lines to separate the lamp and
switch matrix. It's one connector and the wires are connected to both lamps
and switches. Unplug the strobe line connector (A3J3) and you lose all
lamps and switches. If there's an issue on a strobe line you can't isolate
it except to check every diode on every lamp and every switch.
Unplugging return lines won't help if the fault lies in a strobe line, lamp
or switch.
Let's try this:
1) Swap the CPU board. If you don't have one available at least inspect the
current board for damage from a leaky battery. Might want to check around
the connectors for solder splashes but I doubt you'll find any issues with
the connectors on the board.
2) Remove every lamp from the game. Credit lamp, coin door lamps, every
single one.
3) Start a game and look for the problem to repeat. In multiplayer games
make sure that no points are added to any player until a ball actually
starts hitting switches on the playfield.
4) Do the vibration test at the outhole and trough. Start a game, use the
meaty part of your hand and bang on the playfield near the outhole and
trough. Also check any place where the ball can be captured as part of the
game leading up to multiball. Trigger the switches with the pinball. Don't
use your finger.
What really adds to the frustration of diagnosing a game fault over the
internet is the fact that almost everyone has a different way of tracing
down an issue. To follow one person's method might not be the speediest way
to find a fault but trying to follow 25 different methods at once just ends
up with 24 wild goose chases, one method that finds the issue, and a lot of
people going back and forth about which method is best until that magic
"one" is found.
I say switch/lamp matrix issue, someone else calls "coil", yet another calls
"relay". Maybe it's a bad latch on the driver board. wait, it's not
because you already swapped boards and the issue stayed with the game.
Maybe a failing bridge rectifier or fuse holder that stops the coil from
getting full voltage but only on occasion...
An oscilloscope could be an immense help when checking bridges and strobe
lines for intermittent faults.
--
Pistol Pete
AVP Pinball Division
Towson, MD
410-583-9200
www.AVPpinball.com
ser...@AVPpinball.com
Adam Pinball
wrote:
I bought the machine maybe 4 months ago or so and put it on location
right after doing a basic shop job: new rubber, bulbs, testing
everything, cleaned and waxed, etc. It went to a laundromat and
earned money for about two months before I started getting calls that
refunds were being given because it would not kick the ball out. I
would go check it out, and of course it would work just fine for me,
so I would play 5 or 6 games to test it out, call it a fluke and walk
out. A few days later I would get another call with the same
issue...so now I knew I had a problem. I started doing some basic
troubleshooting on site thinking it might have been a mechanical
problem so I disassembled the ball release mech and put a new coil
sleeve in and looked for mechanical failures...when it kept happening
I took the machine off location and brought it home to repair.
I was just guessing about how to separate the lamps from the switches
by pulling the lamp return plug. If you say that is not good enough
then I have no reason to doubt it as I am sure you have a greater
knowledge of these than I do. For the record, last night I did test
every diode on a lamp that I could get my hands on. The bulk of them
are on PCB arrays (maybe 7 different boards) so those were the easiest
to test but I also tested the other easy to reach individual sockets.
I would guess this is maybe 65 to 70% of the CPU controlled lamps
within the system. Pulling every single bulb would suck but I guess I
could use it as an excuse to change the machine over to LEDs so that
the entire exercise wouldnt be wasted even if this is not the
problem...
I see what you are saying about the machine having two issues here
(ball count, and stuttering coils) but if you watch the video
carefully, when the first ball drains from multiball it hits the
outhole switch the game now counts one ball as having drained, then
the outhole coil stutters or "half fires" and hits the ball just hard
enough to remove it from the switch but not hard enough to roll up the
trough. Then, the ball rolls back down and hits the outhole switch a
second time, the game now counts two balls has having drained and thus
ends the ball entirely and everything goes dead. This tells me the
switches are counting the balls perfectly, technically that outhole
switch was triggered twice and the game has no reason to believe that
both balls have not drained. Watch the video again right at 2 minutes
15 seconds watch that outhole coil. In effect it is the stutter of
that coil that is causing the ball miscount.
Check it out again and let me know if you agree...
Like you said there are different thoughts on troubleshooting this and
I am willing to chase down each of them until something works. Tonight
I plan on looking at the connector and power issues Jim was talking
about AND I will swap the CPU board with the one in my Wipe Out. I
should just have to swap ROM chips to make that work right?
As usual I will post back here in the morning with my results. Again,
thank you to everyone for your suggestions.
John Robertson
Agreed, well tested and substituted.
Well, like Jim says the problem appears to be ground or power. Are you
absolutely certain that all ground connections have been firmly
connected to the metal chassis?
As we say, have you checked the cables for interconnects that could have
loose pins that are not making good contact? I've seen many a game with
a loose pin that isn't seated all the way into the socket and thus
barely connects - but vibration, etc. breaks the connection. Bad crimps
on the wire can also do this, but is very rare.
How about this to check Jim and my other suspect (power). Take backglass
off, and open the head up. Then fire the game up, get it to the point
where the solenoid stops working, then tilt it and put into solenoid
test - touching nothing else. Does it work now? If not, carefully try
shorting the solenoid tab for the outhole to ground and see if the coil
fires...
Adam Pinball
> Adam Pinball wrote:
> > On Mar 17, 11:52 am, John Robertson <s...@flippers.com> wrote:
> >> Adam, be sure NOT to move any balls after the problem presents itself.
> >> You must go to switch test as quickly as you can to capture the
> >> situation exactly as the CPU sees things...
>
> >> John :-#)#
>
> > This is a summary of what I did last night:
> > I played the game until it would not release the ball. As soon as it
> > did this I slam tilted the machine via the switch on the door (the
> > game must be in Game Over mode before it will enter Test) and checked
> > the switch test. The trough switch was detected just fine.
>
> > I then pulled the same trough switch out of my Wipe Out game and
> > swapped it. Wipe Out continued to play fine and CBW continued to
> > screw up.
>
> > Next I swapped unsoldered and swapped the outhole switches...same
> > result, no change.
>
> > Then I unplugged the controlled lamp returns from the driver board (P4
> > if I remember correctly) and played a game with no controlled lamps
> > hooked up. I was hoping to eliminate any failed lamp diodes by doing
> > this. Again same result, no change.
>
> Well, like Jim says the problem appears to be ground or power. Are you
> absolutely certain that all ground connections have been firmly
> connected to the metal chassis?
>
> As we say, have you checked the cables for interconnects that could have
> loose pins that are not making good contact? I've seen many a game with
> a loose pin that isn't seated all the way into the socket and thus
> barely connects - but vibration, etc. breaks the connection. Bad crimps
> on the wire can also do this, but is very rare.
>
> How about this to check Jim and my other suspect (power). Take backglass
> off, and open the head up. Then fire the game up, get it to the point
> where the solenoid stops working, then tilt it and put into solenoid
> test - touching nothing else. Does it work now? If not, carefully try
> shorting the solenoid tab for the outhole to ground and see if the coil
> fires...
>
> John :-#)#
Sorry for the lack of updates, I decided to spend less time working on
this thing over the weekend. I really needed a break from it.
Still, I did do some work with no success:
I located A9J8 and confirmed that the wires for all of these affected
solenoids run through this plug. This plug was somewhat difficult to
get to as it is located on the bottom of the cabinet toward the back
and is fixed in some sort of plug mount It seemed well connected to
begin with but I pulled on the wires and looked for pins that were
bent, loose or not seated properly. I found nothing. Reseated the
connector a few times and tried the game again...no luck.
I swapped the CPU board with the one in my Wipe Out. The boards look
the same for the most part however they have different part numbers on
them and at least one of the chips was different (but it looked OEM
not hacked). I swapped the ROMs and installed the Wipe Out CPU in
CBW. The game booted and played with no difference...same problem.
FYI: I did put the Wipe Out ROM in the CBW CPU and installed it in
Wipe Out, this caused the game to cease to function normally...it said
balls were missing and none of switches were responding. Once I put
the original Wipe Out board back it worked fine again. I was under
the impression these CPUs were interchangeable but I guess not,
downwards compatible maybe but not the other way around.
Next, I swapped power supplies (just the standard one and not the aux
board). This also had no effect on the problem.
Finally, I did as you suggested John and ran it till it failed to
release a ball. Immediately I slam tilted it put it into solenoid test
and checked that coil...it worked just fine.
This reminded me of something that has really been bothering me about
troubleshooting this machine. I cannot get this ball release issue to
occur during test mode. Since this whole mess started I have been in
and out of test mode many times and have tested that damn coil many
times (honestly it has to be over 100 times) in test mode. Never once
has it failed or stuttered in test. As soon as I take it out of test
it will goof up usually within 4 games and for sure within 10 games.
I just don't get it...I'm going bonkers over here. If anyone knows
any good pinball techs who live in the Las Vegas area...I am getting
to the point where I would be excited to throw money at the person who
can solve this...
CEG
>
> - Show quoted text -
Have you cleaned the relay contacts??
Gott Lieb?
odd, but the display eprom is an extension of the CPU eprom.
Jim
AVP Pinball Division
>took a break<
It does help to take a break if you have a particularly difficult problem.
>driver board previously swapped.
>swapped CPU, problem stayed with game.
I'd say you have a playfield-related issue. Check the solder connections at
the fuse holder under the playfield. Be sure the fuses are being held nice
and tightly by the fuse holder. Look for bad connections at the crimp-on
connectors, especially where more than one wire is crimped. Give them a
good solid tug. Having more than one wire on a crimp-on connector can cause
one of the pair to fail from the stress of vibration.
If you find no bad connections at the solder joints to the fuse holders, the
fuses are all held tightly and the connections at the crimp-on connectors
are verified as being vibration-resistant then you need to do the vibration
test. Watch in switch edges test as you hit the playfield. I will bet that
the outhole, trough or shooter lane switch suffers from vibration issues and
that the firing of the coils near the trough causes it.
Gott Lieb?
account for the game over relay which suffers from the same ailment.
The game over relay is on the 24v power bus line, while the other
coils are on the 48v power bus line.
Jim
On Mar 21, 9:28 pm, "AVP Pinball Division" <serv...@AVPpinball.com>
wrote:
> "Adam Pinball" <adam.pinb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> serv...@AVPpinball.com
AVP Pinball Division
I would agree with all that you stated, Pete, *but* this does not
account for the game over relay which suffers from the same ailment.
The game over relay is on the 24v power bus line, while the other
coils are on the 48v power bus line.
Jim
Yeah, tricky devil isn't it. Still, all boards swapped and the problem
stays with the game. Definitely makes me think a flaky switch/playfield
issue. Game goes to release ball, vibration triggers outhole switch. End
of ball. Flippers turned off. No score recorded, ball registers at trough
switch so outhole may or may not kick. Ball release coil fires a second
time triggering flaky switch, repeat... Reminds me of the intermittent
switch issues caused by the 0.1 uF capacitors on Bally games. They didn't
always short permanently. I saw several that would short only when certain
other switches were triggered... And a few that had vibration-related
failures.
--
Pistol Pete
AVP Pinball Division
Towson, MD
410-583-9200
www.AVPpinball.com
ser...@AVPpinball.com
John Robertson
Well, it helps to pull out the schematic...I have just reviewed the
schematic and what makes sense to me is a bad interconnect between the
MPU and the driver board. The problem could be either pin 16 of
connection A3P2 - 'SS3' (driver board) or pin 16 of connection A1P2 -
'SS3' (mpu board).
I suspect the ribbon cable or the plug on one end could be intermittent.
Try the cable from your second machine...
The reasoning behind this is as follows.
What coils are acting up? All are controlled by U4 - 74HC273. What other
coils are also controlled by this IC? Sol 31 - Game Over (On during
game), Sol 30 - Tilt (normally off - N.O.), Sol 29 Knocker (N.O.), Sol
28 - Outhole, Sol 27 - Ball Release (problems?), Sol 26 - TKT/Coin Meter
(not used), Sol 25 - LB Insert Relay(problems?), Sol 24 - Motor Relay
(problems). If SS3 is not enabled the 273 will not latch up the drivers,
if the connection was poor, then the 273 could 'flicker' when the Clock
Pulse goes high.
I have to assume you may have not seen problems with Sol 25 & 24 if they
are normally off - if they flicker during game play that would be a
further indicator that SS3 line is the problem.
The only problem with this idea is it does not explain why the coils all
work during solenoid test...it would not hurt to check what the 5VDC and
common/ground levels are on the driver board relative to the MPU board.
By this test I mean for you to identify a 5VDC point on the driver
board, and a similar point on the MPU. What is the voltage difference?
Then check a common/ground point on the driver board and a similar point
on the MPU. I use TTL ICs (74HCxxx numbered) for these tests. The pin
furthest away from pin #1 is normally common/ground and the pin directly
across from pin #1 is 5VDC.They really need to be close. Check these two
voltage differences when the problem appears. The voltage drop really
should be as close to zero as possible. 0.5VDC difference on either the
ground or 5VDC would be far too high.
Pin #1 is the first pin counter clockwise from the notch which will be
at one end of EVERY TTL IC. There may also be an indentation (dimple)
right beside pin #1. Note the letter on the IC should considered to be
horizontal and not upside down for terms of reference for indentifying
pin #1.
Adam Pinball
Here is the scoop:
Yesterday morning I decided to call the only pinball technician I know
here in Las Vegas, Nick Kovalevsky from Planet Nine Pinball. I have
had Nick work on a few machines for me years ago when I first started
maintaining these, and I had purchased parts and pins from him in the
past too. Usually he is pretty busy or is out of town but this time
he was actually able to come out the same day so at 3:30 he showed up
at my door.
I spent some time reviewing the troubleshooting steps I had already
done and like everyone here he agreed it was a problem at the
playfield and most likely with the power or grounding. He replaced
both filter caps and the 20v, and 48v bridge rectifiers, these did not
fix the problem. We spent some more time looking over the schematics
and he noticed the motor that oscillates the 8 ball runs off of 50v AC
that comes straight off the transformer from the same tap that is
connected to the 48v bridge.
He suspected that since the problem only occurs when starting a new
ball and during multiball (which are the only times that motor is
running) that perhaps the motor was drawing too much power and messing
things up. This would explain why the machine never screws up during
test mode since that motor does not run during any of the tests and it
also explains why things are not screwy once a single ball is in play.
This was easy enough to test by unplugging the motor and playing the
game. Sure enough, when the motor is disconnected the game plays just
fine and never has a failure. As soon as the motor is plugged back
in, the game screws up.
The reason why I say the game is "mostly" fixed is because I do not
have a spare motor handy to replace it and I have a fear that I am
going to obtain a new motor, hook it up, and have the problem come
back immediately. It is strange that my existing motor seems to work
just fine too, it runs without excess noise or heat and is very
smooth.
John Robertson
Interesting, didn't know the motor was running when this problem was
occurring...
It might be electrical noise from the motor. I would (if in my shop)
experiment with a couple of inductors on the AC lines right at the
motor, or a couple of 0.1ufd caps connecting between the motor AC
terminals the metal frame of the motor. This is not too likely to solve
the problem unless the motor has brushes, but couldn't hurt.
How much current does the motor draw? Put an am-meter in series with it
to see...if it is around 1A then that could indeed be affecting power
distribution, but if something like 100mA then it is unlikely to be the
current draw of the motor but some other cause. What controls the motor?
Anything there suspicious?
Adam Pinball
> Interesting, didn't know the motor was running when this problem was
> occurring...
Yea, in my effort to capture the trough and lanes where the problem
was occurring I ended up keeping the 8-ball shooter out of view in my
video. Which unless you were very familiar with the game you would
likely not realize was powered on. Had it been visible or had I
mentioned this I'm sure the folks here would have picked up on
it....just part of the problem when troubleshooting over the net.
> It might be electrical noise from the motor. I would (if in my shop)
> experiment with a couple of inductors on the AC lines right at the
> motor, or a couple of 0.1ufd caps connecting between the motor AC
> terminals the metal frame of the motor. This is not too likely to solve
> the problem unless the motor has brushes, but couldn't hurt.
>
> How much current does the motor draw? Put an am-meter in series with it
> to see...if it is around 1A then that could indeed be affecting power
> distribution, but if something like 100mA then it is unlikely to be the
> current draw of the motor but some other cause. What controls the motor?
> Anything there suspicious?
>
> John :-#)#
I will hook up the multimeter and find out what the draw is.
Coincidently the Wipe Out machine I have right next to this also has a
50v AC motor wired in the same way to run the "ski lift" feature. I
think if I put the meter on that too I will have a baseline figure
that I can compare to.
The motor is controlled by the B relay mounted under the playfield.
From what I understand the circuit that powers the motor comes
straight from the transformer, to the switch that is triggered by the
relay and then to the motor. So the driver board triggers the relay
which closes the circuit that powers the motor until the relay is
released.
One thing Nick noticed that was fishy was that someone had installed a
varistor on the switch that controls the motor on relay B, probably in
an effort to solve this problem, I had not noticed this. Nick told me
that this was improper use of a varistor anyway and wouldn't have
helped. We both recognized this as an indication that we were on the
right track since it was now apparent that someone else had previously
been fussing with this switch as well.
I will follow up with amp draw data soon.
Thank you again to everyone who has paid attention to this thread and
offered suggestions and advice. If anything, this has been a learning
experience and I enjoy seeing how others troubleshoot these sorts of
issues.
Gott Lieb?
the schematics. I'm not certain why it was done that way.
Jim
John Robertson
> The varistor across the switch on the B relay is factory, according to
> the schematics. I'm not certain why it was done that way.
>
> Jim
Perhaps it was a form of 'keep-alive' as used on lights so the motor
always has a small amount of current running through it so it starts up
faster?
John :-#)#
Bomber_Man
> The varistor across the switch on the B relay is factory, according to
> the schematics. I'm not certain why it was done that way.
>
> Jim
I couldn't find it on the schematics, let me know what page you found
it on...I suppose I better wire it back up :-)
Still, I am sure that someone was messing with that switch as the
solder on it was somewhat fresh.
I didn't get a chance to check the amp draw on that motor yet but I
will try to get to that tonight. According to Pinball Resource's
website they are out of stock on that motor so I might be screwed for
a while.
Gott Lieb?
Jim
Tensikka
Hi all,
I have exactly same symptoms found in my CBW also. Haven't been able
to test it yet (I'm at office right now and discovered this topic
just) but will do some testing tonight. In my case, following symptoms
has been found:
- ball release don't work sometimes (usually 1st ball is "stuck"). Not
very frequent problem
- 8-ball motor is having "nags" when running, can be caused from
linkage or something but unlikely
- knocker "knocks" only about once in three tries (this happens also
on test)
- multiball ends with one ball still in play, but very rarely
I have done full shopping to machine, now I have been test playing it
in my garage. Some project pictures can be found:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58342020@N08/sets/72157626373352284/with/5568830844/
So if anybody has solution for this power-feed issue, please help...
.tensikka
Tensikka
> On Mar 25, 12:33 am, "Gott Lieb?" <r...@papinball.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > It's on the power distribution schems., pg. 55.
>
> > Jim
>
> > On Mar 24, 5:16 pm, Bomber_Man <adam.bara...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 23, 5:56 pm, Gott Lieb? <r...@papinball.com> wrote:
>
> > > > The varistor across the switch on the B relay is factory, according to
> > > > the schematics. I'm not certain why it was done that way.
>
> > > > Jim
>
> > > I couldn't find it on the schematics, let me know what page you found
> > > it on...I suppose I better wire it back up :-)
> > > Still, I am sure that someone was messing with that switch as the
> > > solder on it was somewhat fresh.
>
> > > I didn't get a chance to check the amp draw on that motor yet but I
> > > will try to get to that tonight. According to Pinball Resource's
> > > website they are out of stock on that motor so I might be screwed for
> > > a while.
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have exactly same symptoms found in my CBW also. Haven't been able
> to test it yet (I'm at office right now and discovered this topic
> just) but will do some testing tonight. In my case, following symptoms
> has been found:
>
> very frequent problem
> - 8-ballmotor is having "nags" when running, can be caused from
> linkage or something but unlikely
> - knocker "knocks" only about once in three tries (this happens also
> on test)
>
> I have done full shopping to machine, now I have been test playing it
>
> So if anybody has solution for this power-feed issue, please help...
>
> .tensikka
Oh, forgot to mention that all 17 solenoids of this game has been
rebuild with new coilsleeves and cleaned/polished plungers. One
transistor was broken at driver board, it controlled only one flasher
(blue dome lightning one part of 8-ball targets).
One thing come to my mind. My CBW's driver board has some 20+
transitors called BUZ 72L. On Clay's site, it's recommended that all
of those should be changed. Could that be one reason for these
problems? I did order 100 new ones so it's only matter of time now on.
.tensikka
John Robertson
> On Mar 16, 2:59 am, "c...@provide.net" <c...@provide.net> wrote:
>> On Mar 16, 4:51 am, Adam Pinball <adam.pinb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> I have a Cue Ball Wizard that is driving me NUTS with this issue.
>>>> Hmm... I'm thinking switch issue. Outhole, trough, shooter lane, safety
>>>> interlock on coin door.
>>>> One other thing to remember is that System 3 strobe lines do double duty.
>>>> Switch and lamp strobes are the same. A bad diode will wreak havoc on the
>>>> matrix and confuse the hell out of the game. Start by checking the diodes
>>>> on the switches I listed after checking the switches' clearance and
>>>> operation.
>>>> Pistol Pete
>>>> AVP Pinball Division
>>>> Towson, MD
>>>> 410-583-9200www.AVPpinball.com
>>>> serv...@AVPpinball.com
Did you ever find out what the problem was?
John :-#)#