Jon Norris leaves Stern Pinball

92 views
Skip to first unread message

Outlane

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Farewell to Pinball

This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.

I had suggested that the new offices be made into a "Non-Smoking" section,
where people who have problems with smoke can exist. I was told "Absolutely
NOT".

I suggested that Smokers must take their "Smoke Breaks" at Designated times.
Again NO! (The reason for the "Smoke Friendly [Hostile]" policy is that there
are concerns over a person at the end of their Cigarette break, ready to come
back in to their desk will continue to chat with someone who had just beginning
to take their break.)

I suggested on working out a Telecommuting/Consulting scheme, and
again was told NO. (No concern over a double standard)

Finally, I suggested that my office be isolated from the rest, with a door out
to the Non-smoking factory. (My intended office has a window out to the
factory) Again, NO

One of my greatest strengths is problem solving. Well, I came up against a
brick wall so I must leave and throw away my entire career.

(I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
about 500 Slides

So-long Pinball :-(


I will probably be changing my "Outlane" screen name, so use my web site to
contact me. <A HREF="http://www.dreamlandscapes.com">Dreamlandscapes</A>

Watch eBay for several auctions in July. I will be
auctioning off all of my remaining Pinball items, including:

Shuffleball

(The True First Flipper Pinball Machine, date- 1932)

This is the only copy that I have ever seen. Pinball's HOLY GRAIL.

Start bid will be $3,000 with no reserve. Other Pinball Items will include
mostly Butyrate pieces. I will also sell my Corvette at 'Wholesale' as the
starting bid with no reserve.

Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and experienced
hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web Design
(HTML and Javascript).

Good Bye.
Jon Norris

Ross Hitchins

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Jon,
Sorry you could not work out a compromise with your company. Hopefully
you will find gainfull employment somewhere that allows non smokers to work
without being forced to be exposed to third party smoke. I had asthma as a
kid and it was not fun. Good luck.
Ross

Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000627102201...@ng-fo1.aol.com...

>
>

Duncan Brown

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to

Outlane wrote:
>
> Farewell to Pinball

<snip>

> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
> about 500 Slides

Duncan winces... I am sure Russ Jensen is wincing at least as hard...

My parents both smoked when I was growing up, so I kind of got used to
it. But once I started working for a smoke-free company (about 14 years
ago) and the area I was living in made all public places like stores
non-smoking, I was amazed what an effect it had on me on the now-rare
occasions when I was forced to choke down secondhand smoke. I'm amazed
in this day and age (even in Chicago) that a non-smoker would run into
that much trouble asserting their rights to clean air...

Duncan

Jim Hicks

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to Outlane

This is incredible! I thought the Federal ADA (Americans with
Disabilities Act) required employers to make reasonable accommodations
to employees with disabilities (and I believe asthma qualifies).

If this account is true, it is a really sad statement from Stern
Pinball. If this decision has soured Jon to the point of completely
leaving the world of pinball, then Stern has done great harm to us all.
Jon Norris is one of the nicest guys I've met since I've been in this
hobby and he's made a number of significant contributions to pinball
over the years. If the materials Jon mentioned are indeed gone, then we
all may have lost significant material important to the history of
pinball. 20 years of photos and reference materials, certainly many
from the end of Gottlieb and the various Stern/Premiere/DE/Sega
transitions, GONE? Materials related to one of the most classic games
of the last 20 years (Haunted House) GONE? Gee, thanks Stern.

I really enjoyed your talks at Expo last year - your presentation was
beautifully written, clearly showing the passion you have (had?) for
pinball. My wife is thrilled to be picking up a terrific Haunted House
tomorrow (and treasures the HH flyer you signed for her). Getting a
nice Haunted House has been on the top of her wish list ever since we
started collecting. It'll be a little bittersweet now ...

Gary Stern - shame on you. We need you to encourage people playing
pinball, not promote policies that favor smoking at the expense of your
employees health. It sure seems like a reasonable accommodation
could've been made here.

Jon - I wish you the best and hope you will reconsider the decision to
turn your back on all things pinball. We all loose if you leave the
community. Even if you do decide to get out of the hobby part, please
consider recovering the historical material for Gordo or someone that
will preserve it for the benefit of those of us who truly love the
history of pinball.

Thanks for all of your contributions to pinball over the years. Good
luck with whatever the future brings.

Jim Hicks


Outlane wrote:
>
> Farewell to Pinball
>

> This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
> am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
> Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
> companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
> Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
> of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
>
> I had suggested that the new offices be made into a "Non-Smoking" section,
> where people who have problems with smoke can exist. I was told "Absolutely
> NOT".
>
> I suggested that Smokers must take their "Smoke Breaks" at Designated times.
> Again NO! (The reason for the "Smoke Friendly [Hostile]" policy is that there
> are concerns over a person at the end of their Cigarette break, ready to come
> back in to their desk will continue to chat with someone who had just beginning
> to take their break.)
>
> I suggested on working out a Telecommuting/Consulting scheme, and
> again was told NO. (No concern over a double standard)
>
> Finally, I suggested that my office be isolated from the rest, with a door out
> to the Non-smoking factory. (My intended office has a window out to the
> factory) Again, NO
>
> One of my greatest strengths is problem solving. Well, I came up against a
> brick wall so I must leave and throw away my entire career.
>

> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
> about 500 Slides
>

> So-long Pinball :-(

gwoodcock

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Duncan Brown <brow...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>
>
>Outlane wrote:
>>
>> Farewell to Pinball
>
><snip>

>
>> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday,
including several
>> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years
of reference
>> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball
Book, including
>> about 500 Slides
>
>Duncan winces... I am sure Russ Jensen is wincing at least as
hard...
>
>My parents both smoked when I was growing up, so I kind of got
used to
>it. But once I started working for a smoke-free company (about
14 years
>ago) and the area I was living in made all public places like
stores
>non-smoking, I was amazed what an effect it had on me on the
now-rare
>occasions when I was forced to choke down secondhand smoke.
I'm amazed
>in this day and age (even in Chicago) that a non-smoker would
run into
>that much trouble asserting their rights to clean air...

He has a right to (relatively) clean air in public and in his
house but not at his workplace. His employer has the right to
set whatever smoking guidelines he chooses and the employees
have the right to quit and find another job, just like Outlane
had done. It is still poor business practice to let good
employees quit over such a simple and fixable situation!

THANX...Gregg wood...@fastlane.net http://www.fastlane.net/~woodcock
*CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)*
"If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because
I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*."
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com


Karl Denninger

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
In article <20000627102201...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,

Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote:
>Farewell to Pinball
>
>This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
>am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
>Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
>companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
>Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
>of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.

Oh please.

First, Stern Pinball <should be> free to allow or disallow this practice.

You took the job there KNOWING that this was the case.

Your remaining complaint is that *after you willingly took employment in a
place that allows smoking*, you tried to shove down their throats a policy
change and got told to stuff it.

As you should have been told.

If, indeed, you cannot stand second-hand smoke, why take the job in the
first place? Was there a gun to your head? Were you FORCED to work for
Stern Pinball?

Or did you enter into an employment agreement with them knowing that they
permitted smoking in their facility, then UNILATERALLY tried to change that
agreement later on to ban smoking by the REST of their staff for your
putative benefit?

Its one thing to have a hazard suddenly appear out of nowhere. That's
reasonable to ask an employer to save you from, as it wasn't part of what
you knew at the time of your hiring and is a fundamental shift in the
burden(s) you accepted when you signed up for employment there.

Its an entirely different thing to take a job knowing the employer's
policies and then try to FORCE them to change those policies to suit
YOUR demands. If you disliked (or couldn't stand) smoking so much,
then you should have never taken the job.

Your attempt is outrageous, and I'm glad that Stern had the balls to stand
up to your attempted intimidation and extortion and tell you to stick it
where the sun doesn't shine.

As for your pinball things being tossed, good for you, and good for the
bonfire.

May the smoke from the bonfire infest your lungs.

>Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and experienced
>hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
>Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web Design
>(HTML and Javascript).

I wouldn't hire a known and admitted dishonest worker - one who will take a
job at a company knowing of its policy on smoking and then try to FORCE them
to change it for their whim - for any amount of money.

>Good Bye.
>Jon Norris

Good riddance.

--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights

Duncan Brown

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to

Karl Denninger wrote:

<mucho snippo>

> Good riddance.

Ah, glad to see you haven't lost your soft touch.

Duncan, still diggin'

Boag1

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Illinois Pinball? Anyone? Anyone?

Aron (Bueller? Bueller?)
Street maintainence instructions for pinball: 1. Unlock and open coin door
2. Remove coin box and empty contents 3. Replace coin box and shut door 4.
Lock coin door. Congratulations! You're a pinball tech in Detroit! Not that
I'm bitter.

Dave Stambaugh

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
what a dork

"Karl Denninger" <ka...@FS.Denninger.Net> wrote in message
news:8jajer$9nk$0...@pita.alt.net...

Herb Silvers

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Jon -
I would like to echo everyones feeling here that it will be sad to see you
leave the hobby.
You have been a great influence and a true friend. Without you the Pinball
Fantasy Vintage Tourney was not the same.
The one advantage I guess of this is, that you will move back out here to
smoke-free California..
We will welcome you with open arms here and maybe the guys can get together
again for one of Sam's favorite steaks at Steer and Steins.
Take Care Jon.
Herb Silvers
Fabulous Fantasies
818-761-2255

I can see Jon all the time when I play pinball. He's on the Kelly Packard
Backglass on my game at home............

Dave Stambaugh

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
I sympathize. But I don't understand why you would trash all that
pinball-related paraphernalia!!

-dave

"Outlane" <out...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000627102201...@ng-fo1.aol.com...

> Farewell to Pinball
>
> This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember
that I
> am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
> Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me
by the
> companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
> Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small
minority
> of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
>

> I had suggested that the new offices be made into a "Non-Smoking" section,
> where people who have problems with smoke can exist. I was told
"Absolutely
> NOT".
>
> I suggested that Smokers must take their "Smoke Breaks" at Designated
times.
> Again NO! (The reason for the "Smoke Friendly [Hostile]" policy is that
there
> are concerns over a person at the end of their Cigarette break, ready to
come
> back in to their desk will continue to chat with someone who had just
beginning
> to take their break.)
>
> I suggested on working out a Telecommuting/Consulting scheme, and
> again was told NO. (No concern over a double standard)
>
> Finally, I suggested that my office be isolated from the rest, with a door
out
> to the Non-smoking factory. (My intended office has a window out to the
> factory) Again, NO
>
> One of my greatest strengths is problem solving. Well, I came up against a
> brick wall so I must leave and throw away my entire career.
>

> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
> about 500 Slides
>

> So-long Pinball

>
>
> I will probably be changing my "Outlane" screen name, so use my web site
to
> contact me. <A HREF="http://www.dreamlandscapes.com">Dreamlandscapes</A>
>
> Watch eBay for several auctions in July. I will be
> auctioning off all of my remaining Pinball items, including:
>
> Shuffleball
>
> (The True First Flipper Pinball Machine, date- 1932)
>
> This is the only copy that I have ever seen. Pinball's HOLY GRAIL.
>
> Start bid will be $3,000 with no reserve. Other Pinball Items will include
> mostly Butyrate pieces. I will also sell my Corvette at 'Wholesale' as
the
> starting bid with no reserve.
>

> Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and
experienced
> hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
> Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web
Design
> (HTML and Javascript).
>

> Good Bye.
> Jon Norris
>

Keith Johnson

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Without going into too much detail, suffice it to say that engineering was
in a different building from everyone else, and has been for a couple years
(I don't know the exact amount of time since I haven't been here that long
myself). Recently we finished rebuilding some of the factory building, and
are now consolidating everyone into the one building. The previous building
didn't allow smoking; the one we are all in now does.

So while you are correct that the employer can set whatever policies they
want, it's not as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. Jon had been here
3 years I believe.

keith

Orion72101

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Although Karl has a rough delivery of his point, i have to agree that there
should be smoking allowed. It is just a shame that it forced you to quit. I
personally have very conservative views about anything that involves person
freedoms of any way shape or form. I think there are already way too many
restraints on personal freedoms and those remaining personal freedoms are
slowly being whittled away.
Tom DeAngelo

Starwriter

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
So, if I want to take a dump on the floor and leave it there, for all to
smell, and slip in, that's my personal freedom? What if I want to play
rap music at an ear splitting level 10? Is that included in my personal
freedom? If I'm an artist, and I express my ability on the side of your
building, is that OK too? I enjoy my coffee in the morning, but I don't
spit it in your face.
We all have vices, but when your "personal freedom" starts trampling on
my quality of life, something is wrong. You don't mind if I light this
big ol' stogie do you? Oh well, too bad. I'm gonna light it anyway.

cody

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Starwriter <NOS...@ME.COM> wrote:
>So, if I want to take a dump on the floor and leave it there,
for all to
>smell, and slip in, that's my personal freedom? What if I want
to play
>rap music at an ear splitting level 10? Is that included in my
personal
>freedom? If I'm an artist, and I express my ability on the side
of your
>building, is that OK too? I enjoy my coffee in the morning, but
I don't
>spit it in your face.
>We all have vices, but when your "personal freedom" starts
trampling on
>my quality of life, something is wrong. You don't mind if I
light this
>big ol' stogie do you? Oh well, too bad. I'm gonna light it
anyway.

Well, that's kind of an extreme response (knee-jerk action fullt
functional;) but I agree. In my *opinion* bot Tom and Karl are
rather full of themselves.

Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in a
confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.

If I chose to eat rat poison at the lunch table and accidentally
dropped crumbs on your plate what would you do? Probably send me
outside with a lump on my head. I feel the same way about
smokers (although I don't give 'em any lumps). I married a
smoker. That was my choice. Jon's choice was to try to make a
living in his chosen profession and not be penalized with
poison. I don't think this is such a wild request.

And now the freedom issue is raised again. It seems certain
freedoms are a little more important than others to some of us.
Let's see, I want the freedom to poison myself and those around
me, but I'll be damned if you can have the freedom to talk
(email) to anyone you choose for any reason.

The double-standard is alive and well on RGP. "Ain't it cool?"

-Cody

so

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Since when is it a personal freedom to allow smoking at work? I like to have
a beer now and then, but I think I'd be fired if I popped one open at the
office.

That's the dark ages. The company I work for went smoke-free over 25 years
ago.

Orion72101 <orion...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000627130449...@ng-fn1.aol.com...

Rexxx

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
It's been years since I've worked in a place that allowed
smoking.. but it has never bothered me.. in fact, it has allowed
me to take required breaks to have that smoke, and it ends up
breaking up my day better than sitting at my desk all day.
Seeing as in their previous building, he enjoyed a smoke-free
policy, it should follow to the new building, or at least a
portion of that building. In all actuality, if he were to
continue to work there, and was sent into an asthmatic fit which
required a trip to the hospital, technically, he could sue Stern
for the damages.. and hey, I smoke. But I don't force it on
others...
Message has been deleted

Karl Denninger

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Because he's a small-minded juvenile twit and this is his way of throwing a
temper tantrum.

--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights

In article <BQ465.4136$_b3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,

Karl Denninger

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Where?

On your property? Sure, so long as you warn me first. If I stay,
then I consent.

On MY property? Only if you ask me first. If I consent, then you may.

Go read the above until it sinks in.

As for stogies, you may light and consume one on my property provided that
(1) its lit and consumed solely in my lanai, gazebo, yard, or boat (while
said boat is on the water), and (2) you provide me with one to smoke with
you as well.

Those are the landowners rules. If you don't like them then buy your own
property and make your own set of rules for that property.

--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights

In article <3958E5A7...@ME.COM>, Starwriter <NOS...@ME.COM> wrote:
>So, if I want to take a dump on the floor and leave it there, for all to
>smell, and slip in, that's my personal freedom? What if I want to play
>rap music at an ear splitting level 10? Is that included in my personal
>freedom? If I'm an artist, and I express my ability on the side of your
>building, is that OK too? I enjoy my coffee in the morning, but I don't
>spit it in your face.
>We all have vices, but when your "personal freedom" starts trampling on
>my quality of life, something is wrong. You don't mind if I light this
>big ol' stogie do you? Oh well, too bad. I'm gonna light it anyway.
>

Rexxx

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to

>
>Smokers are a bunch of hypocrites who want to be able to
>trample on people's rights whenever they choose, yet limit
>other people's rights when it suits their needs.

I take offense to that. But I'll assume that you MEANT to say
that *SOME* smokers.. as I am indeed a smoker, I do *NOT* force
my habit on other people, nor do I fight for my right to smoke
wherever I want. I survive just fine without being able to
smoke in the workplace. The only place where I lay down a rule
is in my car. In most cases, if you want to ride with me
(unless you are a child), I am going to smoke and you will have
to deal with that, or, drive yourself. But other than that, I
am TOTALLY aware of other peoples needs and feelings, and NEVER
light up in front of a non smoker unless it has been agreed that
I am able to do so. Period. So.. like I said, I think you
meant to say SOME smokers. Labeling ALL smokers as bad people
will turn the tables and make us then label all non smokers as
bad people, etc.. and well.. that arguement simply doesn't work..

Karl Denninger

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
In article <02807823...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,

cody <codyNO...@cpsinet.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in a
>confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.

Yep.

What part of "you consented to be there" didn't you understand?

>Jon's choice was to try to make a
>living in his chosen profession and not be penalized with
>poison. I don't think this is such a wild request.

Bah. Jon's choice was to make a living in his chosen profession AT A
PARTICULAR CHOSEN EMPLOYER and set THEIR policy for THEM.

Jon COULD (and apparently has figured out that he can) go find a DIFFERENT
employer, one with policies more to his liking. There is no shortage of
employers with policies agreeable to Jon, as he has (right here) admitted.

>The double-standard is alive and well on RGP. "Ain't it cool?"
>
>-Cody

Facism is alive and well too, and its spelled C.O.D.Y.

so

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to

Karl Denninger <ka...@FS.Denninger.Net> wrote in message
news:8jatj6$rq2$0...@pita.alt.net...

> In article <02807823...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
> cody <codyNO...@cpsinet.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in a
> >confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.
>
> Yep.
>
> What part of "you consented to be there" didn't you understand?
>
While this whole issue is somewhat off-topic, "consented to be there" isn't
a valid reason. You could work for a nuclear plant, for instance, and if
they refused to supply you with a safe work environment, they couldn't say
"well, you consented to be here..." Comeon....


cody

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Karl, I usually try to avoid pissing matches, but you're an
idiot.

>>Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in a
>>confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.
>
>Yep.
>
>What part of "you consented to be there" didn't you understand?
>

Could you help me out with the "to" part?

>>Jon's choice was to try to make a
>>living in his chosen profession and not be penalized with
>>poison. I don't think this is such a wild request.
>
>Bah. Jon's choice was to make a living in his chosen
profession AT A
>PARTICULAR CHOSEN EMPLOYER and set THEIR policy for THEM.
>
>Jon COULD (and apparently has figured out that he can) go find
a DIFFERENT
>employer, one with policies more to his liking. There is no
shortage of
>employers with policies agreeable to Jon, as he has (right
here) admitted.
>

OK, I'll grant that if he was a new hire, that knew full well
the company policy regarding smoking and that it was
unacceptable, you're right. It was my impression that he had
been working there and was subsequently forced into a new
environment filled with poisons. If I was wrong, I apologize to
The Great and Wonderful Karl.

>>The double-standard is alive and well on RGP. "Ain't it cool?"
>>
>>-Cody
>
>Facism is alive and well too, and its spelled C.O.D.Y.
>

That's "Fascism", twit. And nowhere did I suggest that fascist
regulations be implemented. Only that one should be able to earn
a living without being poisoned. Shame on me.

By the way, Karl, are you a smoker?

-Cody

fandsw

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
"so" <scott...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Karl Denninger <ka...@FS.Denninger.Net> wrote in message
>news:8jatj6$rq2$0...@pita.alt.net...
>> In article <02807823...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
>> cody <codyNO...@cpsinet.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in
a
>> >confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> What part of "you consented to be there" didn't you
understand?
>>
>While this whole issue is somewhat off-topic, "consented to be
there" isn't
>a valid reason. You could work for a nuclear plant, for
instance, and if
>they refused to supply you with a safe work environment, they
couldn't say
>"well, you consented to be here..." Comeon....

Exactly, what if he contracted the asthma due to this
environment which was not originally there when he started?
There are federal laws to protect employees from work-
environment induced injuries/illness, and protecting employees
from second-hand smoke is included. The company I work for had
to make allowances for this due to federal law by banning
smoking indoors and at all entrances, only allowing it in a
ventilated room out in the company parking deck. Stern Pinball
should also follow these rules or it opens itself up to
litigation from the federal government or individuals affected.
And even if it weren't illegal it would be the moral and right
thing to do.

Frank W.
fan...@att.net

---------------------
fan...@NOSPAM.att.net
Birmingham, Alabama

Ross Hitchins

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Wow,
Quite the topic.
This will always be a very touchy subject, as cigarettes are very addictive,
and it gets to be an emotional subject. People who are addicted will
naturally fight to keep their right to smoke and feed the habit. It's not an
easy habit to quit, for even those who want to quit. Those who are not
smokers will fight for their right for clean air. It is not a win win
situation. Smokers want their right to smoke, non smokers want their right
for clean air. The smart companies are those that try to accomodate both
parties. The companies that do not, end up as the losers as people choose to
leave, hence the problem with Jon. We all have rights, but it's not always
easy to let everyone have them. It's not Jon's fault. It is Stern's for not
trying to accomodate the workers that are thier most valuable resource.

Rexxx <cbro...@home.com> wrote in message
news:238764fc...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...

jason

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Karl,

Did you ever stop to think that mabe the smoke caused his
asthma. I smoked for years and guess what, I have 3 inhalers
that I need to use every day and if I smell second hand smoke it
takes my breath away. Mabe he put up with it as long as he
could and it finally forced him to make a descision between the
job or his health. I can't believe you are putting this guy
down like this for being concerned for his own well being.

Orion72101

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
The thing that virtually no one takes into account, is that personal freedom
also includes the freedom for an individual to restrain himself from doing
things that are harmful to others. No, I do not condone taking a dump on the
floor or playing rap music as loud as I can or any other of the silly examples
that you want to come up with. I do condone letting adult people restrain
themselves and not having a mandate for every thing on earth that may in some
way be unsavory to another.
No, I am not stuck on myself,
Tom DeAngelo

Kellie

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to

Geez everyone... calm down. RGP is so dramatic today! We're talking about
smoking here, not the end of the world. I think it's sad that Jon was upset
enough that he would start trashing things you and I would "kill" for,
but... before we start jumping on Stern and each other, remember, there are
always two sides to every story.

My opinion on smoking is.. to each his own. You don't like my smoke, stay
out of my space. I don't like your smoke, stay out of my space. If you
don't have your on space, smoking should be limited to outdoors. We don't
know at this point what Stern's policies are about that, now do we? Still
yet, I don't understand why everyone is making such a big stink about this.
Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Kellie

john shields

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
So you want to quit before all the flippers that stern ever made all completely
bust once and for all. Want some smoke blown in your face? I smoke rothman's
cigarettes. Everbody is quitting because of busted flippers. 15 years of busted
flippers. 15 years how many people asked what to do on your pinball machines when
the flippers just broke? Phillip morris rules the world of tobacco i rule the world
of pinball. I hope you got no pension.

Outlane wrote:

> So-long Pinball :-(

john shields

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Jon it's never too late to take up smoking. Come on it's good for you it'll get rid
of all that asthma. Maybe you should get off your ass for once in your life and do
something like walking up a few flights of stairs.

john shields

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
You could have bummed free cigarettes from both your parents. What more do
you want? P.S. my grandfather smoked 10 coronas or the finest cigars and
drank two 40 ouncers every-day of his life since he was 16. He is age 97
that's right 97 now for all you non-smokers try smoking 10 cigars every-day
and inhaling them. If you get thirsty just drink some top of the line
booze.

gwoodcock wrote:

> Duncan Brown <brow...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Outlane wrote:
> >>
> >> Farewell to Pinball
> >

> ><snip>


> >
> >> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday,
> including several
> >> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years
> of reference
> >> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball
> Book, including
> >> about 500 Slides
> >

Mitch

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
So spewing poison into a person's face who doesn't want it and didn't
ask for it, is personal freedom?

Then walking up to someone on the street and punching them in the lip
is personal freedom, too?

I hope that in the near future smoking is outlawed in every public
place.

I'm amazed that Stern allows smoking in the office...Jon should sue
them.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Craig Tiano

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to

Well Karl, I see you're being yourself...angry, bigoted, and
non-conciliatory...

No one should be forced to work in an environment which could prove
hazardous to their heath if reasonable accomodations can be made to
fix the cause of the hazard. In this case, the company was given
several seemingly reasonable suggestions on how to alleviate the
ashma-related symptoms caused by smoking in the workplace. The company
decided to take none of them and offered no suggestions of their own,
so Jon left. If you were as sensitive to smoke as some of the rest of
us, myself included, you'd know that even standing next to someone
holding (not even smoking) a lit cigarette is enough to cause
shortness of breath or a complete respiratory attack (if you've never
had one, imagine lying on the floor with a Hercules pinball machine
laying on top of you compressing your chest and making it virtually
impossible to breathe). How would you like to work 8 hours per day
where you couldn't breathe and felt lightheaded? Oh, I forgot, you
sold your company and now don't work anymore...

Who is the loser here? I'd say Stern...

Craig


ka...@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl Denninger) wrote:

>In article <20000627102201...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,


>Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Farewell to Pinball
>>
>>This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
>>am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
>>Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
>>companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
>>Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
>>of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
>

>>Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and experienced
>>hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
>>Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web Design
>>(HTML and Javascript).
>

>I wouldn't hire a known and admitted dishonest worker - one who will take a
>job at a company knowing of its policy on smoking and then try to FORCE them
>to change it for their whim - for any amount of money.
>
>>Good Bye.
>>Jon Norris
>
>Good riddance.
>
>--

Craig Tiano,
Norristown, PA.


Message has been deleted

Steve Baumgarten

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
In article <3958C7A5...@eisner.decus.org>,
Duncan Brown <brow...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:

> My parents both smoked when I was growing up, so I kind of got used
> to it. But once I started working for a smoke-free company (about 14
> years ago) and the area I was living in made all public places like
> stores non-smoking, I was amazed what an effect it had on me on the
> now-rare occasions when I was forced to choke down secondhand smoke.
> I'm amazed in this day and age (even in Chicago) that a non-smoker
> would run into that much trouble asserting their rights to clean
> air...

Me too, but then again I work in New York City, where such a barbarous
practices -- unrestricted smoking in any area of the workplace -- has
been banned for many years now. Smoking is allowed in private offices
only, and even then there are caveats if there are more than a certain
number of people occupying the office. Most people in NYC -- even many
smokers -- seem to think that this is A Good Thing. (Though obviously
your mileage will vary, as it seems to be in whatever part of Illinois
that Stern is located in.)

I still remember when Steve Epstein decided that the Broadway Arcade
should become a smoke-free environment. We lost a great player --
Jelly Cartegena -- who smoked and said he wouldn't play there anymore
if Steve changed the rules. But change them he did, and Jelly didn't
come back (or if he did it was only much later, and then infrequently,
because I never ran into him and he stopped playing in the leagues).

The result (other than the loss of Jelly, which in truth meant that the
#1 slot on the high score tables on many of the machines suddenly
opened up) was literally a breath of fresh air. It became so much more
pleasant to play there -- and yet like you I was sort of OK with the
smoke for a long time (I'm guessing this happened around 10 years ago,
so that means I played there, surrounded by smoke, on and off for 13
years prior to that).

Last, although I Am Not A Lawyer, the poster who mentioned that there
are ADA-related issues here, is, I think, right on target. I have no
doubt that Jon could cause Stern a lot of trouble over their refusal to
accommodate his medical condition. Pre ADA you could get away with the
old "if you don't like it, leave" business -- but not anymore. Stern's
management is on shaky ground if all the facts of the case are as Jon
has presented them.

Getting back to pinball, let me close by saying (as many others already
have) what a shame it is about Jon and the loss to pinball this
represents. He's a truly nice and talented guy, and this sort of thing
shouldn't happen to anyone.

SBB

Keith Johnson

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
I don't know why I bother sometimes, but...

john shields <j.sh...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:39591900...@sympatico.ca...


> Jon it's never too late to take up smoking. Come on it's good for you
it'll get rid
> of all that asthma. Maybe you should get off your ass for once in your
life and do
> something like walking up a few flights of stairs.

This is a complete elephant's assload of shit. Jon is one of the most fit
people that I personally know. Making a comment like this is completely
ignorant, not that I'd expect any different from you, but just thought I'd
set the record straight. It is possible to be in perfect shape, yet still
have asthma.

Caving in to the troll,
keith

larry

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Smoking article at abcnews.com here..

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/quitting000627.html

and stern sucks for not making any effort to accomodate him. Jeez.. all
he wanted was (relatively) clean air to breathe. How hard would it be
to make a small bit of the building non-smoking?

Mitch wrote:
>
> So spewing poison into a person's face who doesn't want it and didn't
> ask for it, is personal freedom?
>
> Then walking up to someone on the street and punching them in the lip
> is personal freedom, too?
>
> I hope that in the near future smoking is outlawed in every public
> place.
>
> I'm amazed that Stern allows smoking in the office...Jon should sue
> them.
>

Orion72101

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Yes, I guess walking up to someone on the street and punching them on the lip
is personal freedom, but you run the risk of getting punched back or stabbed or
shot in return. I never said personal freedom was without risk. You obviously
did not see my last post to this thread.
Tom DeAngelo

Keith Stelter

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Hey RETARDS (both smokers AND non- smokers)!
We're losing one of the Greatest assets to the pinball industry and hobby
here!!! You guys are fighting over the wrong thing!!!
Hell, I'd buy Jon a NASA Surplus SPACE SUIT to wear at work if he will stick
with the business!!!!
Let's focus on the IMPORTANT ISSUE HERE!!!!
IDIOTS!!!


Craig Tiano <cti...@voicenet.com> wrote in message
news:m87ils8j84vmp4ilf...@4ax.com...

brettbags

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Yep people want the freedom to smoke wherever, you dont
really have much freedom because your a slave to a PLANT of
all things. I always thought the US was ahead of the rest
of the world, smoking in the workplace is almost medievil.


* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful

larry

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
I've seen a few of those (median fires) - I don't think smokers realize
how dangerous it is to toss lit butts out the windows during dry summer
months.

P.S. You should reconfigure your newsreader to post in plain text, not
html.

David O'Neil wrote:
>
>
>
> Trey Dembski wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > The smokers I can't stand are the people that toss out
> > still-burning cigarettes onto the ground, letting everyone that
> > passes by choke
> > for a few seconds from a cigarette they're no longer smoking! And I
> > won't even
> > get into litter laws that smokers seem to think they're above (SOME
> > smokers,
> > that is).
> >
>
> That's how the median fires along the highways this summer will be
> started.
>
> Dave

larry

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
> Duncan, who picked up some psychology out of a book he found in the
> landfill

It doesn't take a very thick psychology book to determine when a person
(Karl) is a jerk. Fortunately there aren't many people like him out
there

larry

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
> Everyone that smoked went outside to have a cigarette. I even went outside
> when there were rain storms, snow storms, cold weather, hot weather. No matter
> what, I respected Jon's wishes as did others. So we changed our rules to
> accomodate one persons requests. As far as Jon throwing out all his pinball

Soo.. why did the rules change back when you moved back to the other
building? If you guys knew that cigarette smoke tore him up inside, why
did people suddenly feel the need to smoke in the new building?

Not accusing.. just wondering.. something like this should have stopped
at common courtesy and never reached the point where he had to quit.

D. Halligan

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
On 27 Jun 2000, Trey Dembski wrote:
> If anyone out there is truly for total freedom from government interference,
> and doesn't mind allowing EVERYONE to exercise freedom in whatever way they
> choose, that's a perfectly valid opinion. But you can't have it both ways.
> Either it's ok to do whatever the hell you want, basically telling whoever
> doesn't like what you're doing to piss off, or you should not be allowed to
> behave in a way that infringes on other peoples rights. You can't pick and
> choose.

Yes, it's all black and white, we must have government totally control our
lives or everyone must be able to do whatever they want. Anarchism or
Totalitarianism, forget democracy. Right.

In reality in the US we have a constitution that protects some freedoms
and upholds some laws, the details are worked out through the courts by
people that have the balls to stand up against unjust laws. Now no one
believes all laws are just, but also very few of us believe in no laws at
all. We are all in the middle, it's not one way or the other like you say
above. We want basic clear laws that gaurantee our freedoms, but don't
allow people to rob, kill, and rape us. Whining over if a private business
wants to allow smoking or not seems so trivial, I think most people would
believe a private business can decide their own policies on these types of
issues as long as the fall under the basic laws of standards of work. If
they guy had a union contract, worker's rights laws, or health standard
laws that protected him, by all means he should use that in court and sue
the company. But whining about needing more laws or how smoking is dumb is
pointless, we don't need more laws and smoking is dumb, but it's a
personal choice, we don't need the government telling us what we can and
can't put in our bodies or how we should run our businesses. -dan

John Robertson

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Jon, a real tragedy, most saddened to hear of your decision.

Fascinating, here in British Columbia smoking is outlawed in public
serving areas (stores, etc) and there is even an effort being made by
Workmans Compensation Board. to bad smoking in ALL work places.
Including BARS! This has a LOT of support here, and it turns out that
many bars make MORE money after a temporary ban of smoking due to
people coming in that hated smokey bars, and also folks could taste
the food so they bought more...

I wish I could have a business making pinballs here in Vancouver, my
shop has always been a no-smoking zone...any others out there?

John :-#(#

On 27 Jun 2000 14:22:01 GMT, out...@aol.com (Outlane) wrote:

>Farewell to Pinball
>
>This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
>am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
>Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
>companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
>Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
>of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
>

>I had suggested that the new offices be made into a "Non-Smoking" section,
>where people who have problems with smoke can exist. I was told "Absolutely
>NOT".
>
>I suggested that Smokers must take their "Smoke Breaks" at Designated times.
>Again NO! (The reason for the "Smoke Friendly [Hostile]" policy is that there
>are concerns over a person at the end of their Cigarette break, ready to come
>back in to their desk will continue to chat with someone who had just beginning
>to take their break.)
>
>I suggested on working out a Telecommuting/Consulting scheme, and
>again was told NO. (No concern over a double standard)
>
>Finally, I suggested that my office be isolated from the rest, with a door out
>to the Non-smoking factory. (My intended office has a window out to the
>factory) Again, NO
>
>One of my greatest strengths is problem solving. Well, I came up against a
>brick wall so I must leave and throw away my entire career.
>

>(I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
>Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
>items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
>about 500 Slides
>

>So-long Pinball :-(
>
>
>I will probably be changing my "Outlane" screen name, so use my web site to
>contact me. <A HREF="http://www.dreamlandscapes.com">Dreamlandscapes</A>
>
>Watch eBay for several auctions in July. I will be
>auctioning off all of my remaining Pinball items, including:
>
>Shuffleball
>
>(The True First Flipper Pinball Machine, date- 1932)
>
>This is the only copy that I have ever seen. Pinball's HOLY GRAIL.
>
>Start bid will be $3,000 with no reserve. Other Pinball Items will include
>mostly Butyrate pieces. I will also sell my Corvette at 'Wholesale' as the
>starting bid with no reserve.
>

>Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and experienced
>hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
>Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web Design
>(HTML and Javascript).
>

>Good Bye.
>Jon Norris

(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
mailto:j...@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."


John Robertson

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
It also makes it easy to figure who to click the "kill" filter for!

John :-#)#

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:38:25 -0400, larry <larry...@itpms.com>
wrote:

(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup)

Mitch

unread,
Jun 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/28/00