Jon Norris leaves Stern Pinball
Outlane
This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
I had suggested that the new offices be made into a "Non-Smoking" section,
where people who have problems with smoke can exist. I was told "Absolutely
NOT".
I suggested that Smokers must take their "Smoke Breaks" at Designated times.
Again NO! (The reason for the "Smoke Friendly [Hostile]" policy is that there
are concerns over a person at the end of their Cigarette break, ready to come
back in to their desk will continue to chat with someone who had just beginning
to take their break.)
I suggested on working out a Telecommuting/Consulting scheme, and
again was told NO. (No concern over a double standard)
Finally, I suggested that my office be isolated from the rest, with a door out
to the Non-smoking factory. (My intended office has a window out to the
factory) Again, NO
One of my greatest strengths is problem solving. Well, I came up against a
brick wall so I must leave and throw away my entire career.
(I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
about 500 Slides
So-long Pinball :-(
I will probably be changing my "Outlane" screen name, so use my web site to
contact me. <A HREF="http://www.dreamlandscapes.com">Dreamlandscapes</A>
Watch eBay for several auctions in July. I will be
auctioning off all of my remaining Pinball items, including:
Shuffleball
(The True First Flipper Pinball Machine, date- 1932)
This is the only copy that I have ever seen. Pinball's HOLY GRAIL.
Start bid will be $3,000 with no reserve. Other Pinball Items will include
mostly Butyrate pieces. I will also sell my Corvette at 'Wholesale' as the
starting bid with no reserve.
Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and experienced
hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web Design
(HTML and Javascript).
Good Bye.
Jon Norris
Ross Hitchins
Sorry you could not work out a compromise with your company. Hopefully
you will find gainfull employment somewhere that allows non smokers to work
without being forced to be exposed to third party smoke. I had asthma as a
kid and it was not fun. Good luck.
Ross
Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000627102201...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
>
>
Duncan Brown
Outlane wrote:
>
> Farewell to Pinball
<snip>
> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
> about 500 Slides
Duncan winces... I am sure Russ Jensen is wincing at least as hard...
My parents both smoked when I was growing up, so I kind of got used to
it. But once I started working for a smoke-free company (about 14 years
ago) and the area I was living in made all public places like stores
non-smoking, I was amazed what an effect it had on me on the now-rare
occasions when I was forced to choke down secondhand smoke. I'm amazed
in this day and age (even in Chicago) that a non-smoker would run into
that much trouble asserting their rights to clean air...
Duncan
Jim Hicks
This is incredible! I thought the Federal ADA (Americans with
Disabilities Act) required employers to make reasonable accommodations
to employees with disabilities (and I believe asthma qualifies).
If this account is true, it is a really sad statement from Stern
Pinball. If this decision has soured Jon to the point of completely
leaving the world of pinball, then Stern has done great harm to us all.
Jon Norris is one of the nicest guys I've met since I've been in this
hobby and he's made a number of significant contributions to pinball
over the years. If the materials Jon mentioned are indeed gone, then we
all may have lost significant material important to the history of
pinball. 20 years of photos and reference materials, certainly many
from the end of Gottlieb and the various Stern/Premiere/DE/Sega
transitions, GONE? Materials related to one of the most classic games
of the last 20 years (Haunted House) GONE? Gee, thanks Stern.
I really enjoyed your talks at Expo last year - your presentation was
beautifully written, clearly showing the passion you have (had?) for
pinball. My wife is thrilled to be picking up a terrific Haunted House
tomorrow (and treasures the HH flyer you signed for her). Getting a
nice Haunted House has been on the top of her wish list ever since we
started collecting. It'll be a little bittersweet now ...
Gary Stern - shame on you. We need you to encourage people playing
pinball, not promote policies that favor smoking at the expense of your
employees health. It sure seems like a reasonable accommodation
could've been made here.
Jon - I wish you the best and hope you will reconsider the decision to
turn your back on all things pinball. We all loose if you leave the
community. Even if you do decide to get out of the hobby part, please
consider recovering the historical material for Gordo or someone that
will preserve it for the benefit of those of us who truly love the
history of pinball.
Thanks for all of your contributions to pinball over the years. Good
luck with whatever the future brings.
Jim Hicks
Outlane wrote:
>
> Farewell to Pinball
>
> This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
> am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
> Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
> companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
> Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
> of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
>
> I had suggested that the new offices be made into a "Non-Smoking" section,
> where people who have problems with smoke can exist. I was told "Absolutely
> NOT".
>
> I suggested that Smokers must take their "Smoke Breaks" at Designated times.
> Again NO! (The reason for the "Smoke Friendly [Hostile]" policy is that there
> are concerns over a person at the end of their Cigarette break, ready to come
> back in to their desk will continue to chat with someone who had just beginning
> to take their break.)
>
> I suggested on working out a Telecommuting/Consulting scheme, and
> again was told NO. (No concern over a double standard)
>
> Finally, I suggested that my office be isolated from the rest, with a door out
> to the Non-smoking factory. (My intended office has a window out to the
> factory) Again, NO
>
> One of my greatest strengths is problem solving. Well, I came up against a
> brick wall so I must leave and throw away my entire career.
>
> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
> about 500 Slides
>
> So-long Pinball :-(
gwoodcock
>
>> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday,
including several
>> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years
of reference
>> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball
Book, including
>> about 500 Slides
>
hard...
>
>My parents both smoked when I was growing up, so I kind of got
used to
>it. But once I started working for a smoke-free company (about
14 years
>ago) and the area I was living in made all public places like
stores
>non-smoking, I was amazed what an effect it had on me on the
now-rare
>occasions when I was forced to choke down secondhand smoke.
I'm amazed
>in this day and age (even in Chicago) that a non-smoker would
run into
>that much trouble asserting their rights to clean air...
He has a right to (relatively) clean air in public and in his
house but not at his workplace. His employer has the right to
set whatever smoking guidelines he chooses and the employees
have the right to quit and find another job, just like Outlane
had done. It is still poor business practice to let good
employees quit over such a simple and fixable situation!
THANX...Gregg wood...@fastlane.net http://www.fastlane.net/~woodcock
*CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)*
"If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because
I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*."
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Karl Denninger
Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote:
>Farewell to Pinball
>
>This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
>am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
>Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
>companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
>Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
>of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
Oh please.
First, Stern Pinball <should be> free to allow or disallow this practice.
You took the job there KNOWING that this was the case.
Your remaining complaint is that *after you willingly took employment in a
place that allows smoking*, you tried to shove down their throats a policy
change and got told to stuff it.
As you should have been told.
If, indeed, you cannot stand second-hand smoke, why take the job in the
first place? Was there a gun to your head? Were you FORCED to work for
Stern Pinball?
Or did you enter into an employment agreement with them knowing that they
permitted smoking in their facility, then UNILATERALLY tried to change that
agreement later on to ban smoking by the REST of their staff for your
putative benefit?
Its one thing to have a hazard suddenly appear out of nowhere. That's
reasonable to ask an employer to save you from, as it wasn't part of what
you knew at the time of your hiring and is a fundamental shift in the
burden(s) you accepted when you signed up for employment there.
Its an entirely different thing to take a job knowing the employer's
policies and then try to FORCE them to change those policies to suit
YOUR demands. If you disliked (or couldn't stand) smoking so much,
then you should have never taken the job.
Your attempt is outrageous, and I'm glad that Stern had the balls to stand
up to your attempted intimidation and extortion and tell you to stick it
where the sun doesn't shine.
As for your pinball things being tossed, good for you, and good for the
bonfire.
May the smoke from the bonfire infest your lungs.
>Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and experienced
>hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
>Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web Design
>(HTML and Javascript).
I wouldn't hire a known and admitted dishonest worker - one who will take a
job at a company knowing of its policy on smoking and then try to FORCE them
to change it for their whim - for any amount of money.
>Good Bye.
>Jon Norris
Good riddance.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
Duncan Brown
Karl Denninger wrote:
<mucho snippo>
> Good riddance.
Ah, glad to see you haven't lost your soft touch.
Duncan, still diggin'
Boag1
Aron (Bueller? Bueller?)
Street maintainence instructions for pinball: 1. Unlock and open coin door
2. Remove coin box and empty contents 3. Replace coin box and shut door 4.
Lock coin door. Congratulations! You're a pinball tech in Detroit! Not that
I'm bitter.
Dave Stambaugh
"Karl Denninger" <ka...@FS.Denninger.Net> wrote in message
news:8jajer$9nk$0...@pita.alt.net...
Herb Silvers
I would like to echo everyones feeling here that it will be sad to see you
leave the hobby.
You have been a great influence and a true friend. Without you the Pinball
Fantasy Vintage Tourney was not the same.
The one advantage I guess of this is, that you will move back out here to
smoke-free California..
We will welcome you with open arms here and maybe the guys can get together
again for one of Sam's favorite steaks at Steer and Steins.
Take Care Jon.
Herb Silvers
Fabulous Fantasies
818-761-2255
I can see Jon all the time when I play pinball. He's on the Kelly Packard
Backglass on my game at home............
Dave Stambaugh
pinball-related paraphernalia!!
-dave
"Outlane" <out...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000627102201...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> Farewell to Pinball
>
> This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember
that I
> am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
> Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me
by the
> companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
> Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small
minority
> of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
>
> I had suggested that the new offices be made into a "Non-Smoking" section,
> where people who have problems with smoke can exist. I was told
"Absolutely
> NOT".
>
> I suggested that Smokers must take their "Smoke Breaks" at Designated
times.
> Again NO! (The reason for the "Smoke Friendly [Hostile]" policy is that
there
> are concerns over a person at the end of their Cigarette break, ready to
come
> back in to their desk will continue to chat with someone who had just
beginning
> to take their break.)
>
> I suggested on working out a Telecommuting/Consulting scheme, and
> again was told NO. (No concern over a double standard)
>
> Finally, I suggested that my office be isolated from the rest, with a door
out
> to the Non-smoking factory. (My intended office has a window out to the
> factory) Again, NO
>
> One of my greatest strengths is problem solving. Well, I came up against a
> brick wall so I must leave and throw away my entire career.
>
> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
> about 500 Slides
>
> So-long Pinball
>
>
> I will probably be changing my "Outlane" screen name, so use my web site
to
> contact me. <A HREF="http://www.dreamlandscapes.com">Dreamlandscapes</A>
>
> Watch eBay for several auctions in July. I will be
> auctioning off all of my remaining Pinball items, including:
>
> Shuffleball
>
> (The True First Flipper Pinball Machine, date- 1932)
>
> This is the only copy that I have ever seen. Pinball's HOLY GRAIL.
>
> Start bid will be $3,000 with no reserve. Other Pinball Items will include
> mostly Butyrate pieces. I will also sell my Corvette at 'Wholesale' as
the
> starting bid with no reserve.
>
> Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and
experienced
> hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
> Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web
Design
> (HTML and Javascript).
>
> Good Bye.
> Jon Norris
>
Keith Johnson
in a different building from everyone else, and has been for a couple years
(I don't know the exact amount of time since I haven't been here that long
myself). Recently we finished rebuilding some of the factory building, and
are now consolidating everyone into the one building. The previous building
didn't allow smoking; the one we are all in now does.
So while you are correct that the employer can set whatever policies they
want, it's not as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. Jon had been here
3 years I believe.
keith
Orion72101
should be smoking allowed. It is just a shame that it forced you to quit. I
personally have very conservative views about anything that involves person
freedoms of any way shape or form. I think there are already way too many
restraints on personal freedoms and those remaining personal freedoms are
slowly being whittled away.
Tom DeAngelo
Starwriter
smell, and slip in, that's my personal freedom? What if I want to play
rap music at an ear splitting level 10? Is that included in my personal
freedom? If I'm an artist, and I express my ability on the side of your
building, is that OK too? I enjoy my coffee in the morning, but I don't
spit it in your face.
We all have vices, but when your "personal freedom" starts trampling on
my quality of life, something is wrong. You don't mind if I light this
big ol' stogie do you? Oh well, too bad. I'm gonna light it anyway.
cody
>So, if I want to take a dump on the floor and leave it there,
for all to
>smell, and slip in, that's my personal freedom? What if I want
to play
>rap music at an ear splitting level 10? Is that included in my
personal
>freedom? If I'm an artist, and I express my ability on the side
of your
>building, is that OK too? I enjoy my coffee in the morning, but
I don't
>spit it in your face.
>We all have vices, but when your "personal freedom" starts
trampling on
>my quality of life, something is wrong. You don't mind if I
light this
>big ol' stogie do you? Oh well, too bad. I'm gonna light it
anyway.
Well, that's kind of an extreme response (knee-jerk action fullt
functional;) but I agree. In my *opinion* bot Tom and Karl are
rather full of themselves.
Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in a
confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.
If I chose to eat rat poison at the lunch table and accidentally
dropped crumbs on your plate what would you do? Probably send me
outside with a lump on my head. I feel the same way about
smokers (although I don't give 'em any lumps). I married a
smoker. That was my choice. Jon's choice was to try to make a
living in his chosen profession and not be penalized with
poison. I don't think this is such a wild request.
And now the freedom issue is raised again. It seems certain
freedoms are a little more important than others to some of us.
Let's see, I want the freedom to poison myself and those around
me, but I'll be damned if you can have the freedom to talk
(email) to anyone you choose for any reason.
The double-standard is alive and well on RGP. "Ain't it cool?"
-Cody
so
a beer now and then, but I think I'd be fired if I popped one open at the
office.
That's the dark ages. The company I work for went smoke-free over 25 years
ago.
Orion72101 <orion...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000627130449...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
Rexxx
smoking.. but it has never bothered me.. in fact, it has allowed
me to take required breaks to have that smoke, and it ends up
breaking up my day better than sitting at my desk all day.
Seeing as in their previous building, he enjoyed a smoke-free
policy, it should follow to the new building, or at least a
portion of that building. In all actuality, if he were to
continue to work there, and was sent into an asthmatic fit which
required a trip to the hospital, technically, he could sue Stern
for the damages.. and hey, I smoke. But I don't force it on
others...
Karl Denninger
temper tantrum.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
In article <BQ465.4136$_b3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Karl Denninger
On your property? Sure, so long as you warn me first. If I stay,
then I consent.
On MY property? Only if you ask me first. If I consent, then you may.
Go read the above until it sinks in.
As for stogies, you may light and consume one on my property provided that
(1) its lit and consumed solely in my lanai, gazebo, yard, or boat (while
said boat is on the water), and (2) you provide me with one to smoke with
you as well.
Those are the landowners rules. If you don't like them then buy your own
property and make your own set of rules for that property.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
In article <3958E5A7...@ME.COM>, Starwriter <NOS...@ME.COM> wrote:
>So, if I want to take a dump on the floor and leave it there, for all to
>smell, and slip in, that's my personal freedom? What if I want to play
>rap music at an ear splitting level 10? Is that included in my personal
>freedom? If I'm an artist, and I express my ability on the side of your
>building, is that OK too? I enjoy my coffee in the morning, but I don't
>spit it in your face.
>We all have vices, but when your "personal freedom" starts trampling on
>my quality of life, something is wrong. You don't mind if I light this
>big ol' stogie do you? Oh well, too bad. I'm gonna light it anyway.
>
Rexxx
>
>Smokers are a bunch of hypocrites who want to be able to
>trample on people's rights whenever they choose, yet limit
>other people's rights when it suits their needs.
I take offense to that. But I'll assume that you MEANT to say
that *SOME* smokers.. as I am indeed a smoker, I do *NOT* force
my habit on other people, nor do I fight for my right to smoke
wherever I want. I survive just fine without being able to
smoke in the workplace. The only place where I lay down a rule
is in my car. In most cases, if you want to ride with me
(unless you are a child), I am going to smoke and you will have
to deal with that, or, drive yourself. But other than that, I
am TOTALLY aware of other peoples needs and feelings, and NEVER
light up in front of a non smoker unless it has been agreed that
I am able to do so. Period. So.. like I said, I think you
meant to say SOME smokers. Labeling ALL smokers as bad people
will turn the tables and make us then label all non smokers as
bad people, etc.. and well.. that arguement simply doesn't work..
Karl Denninger
cody <codyNO...@cpsinet.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in a
>confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.
Yep.
What part of "you consented to be there" didn't you understand?
>Jon's choice was to try to make a
>living in his chosen profession and not be penalized with
>poison. I don't think this is such a wild request.
Bah. Jon's choice was to make a living in his chosen profession AT A
PARTICULAR CHOSEN EMPLOYER and set THEIR policy for THEM.
Jon COULD (and apparently has figured out that he can) go find a DIFFERENT
employer, one with policies more to his liking. There is no shortage of
employers with policies agreeable to Jon, as he has (right here) admitted.
>The double-standard is alive and well on RGP. "Ain't it cool?"
>
>-Cody
Facism is alive and well too, and its spelled C.O.D.Y.
so
> In article <02807823...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
> cody <codyNO...@cpsinet.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in a
> >confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.
>
> Yep.
>
> What part of "you consented to be there" didn't you understand?
>
a valid reason. You could work for a nuclear plant, for instance, and if
they refused to supply you with a safe work environment, they couldn't say
"well, you consented to be here..." Comeon....
cody
idiot.
>>Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in a
>>confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.
>
>Yep.
>
>What part of "you consented to be there" didn't you understand?
>
Could you help me out with the "to" part?
>>Jon's choice was to try to make a
>>living in his chosen profession and not be penalized with
>>poison. I don't think this is such a wild request.
>
>Bah. Jon's choice was to make a living in his chosen
profession AT A
>PARTICULAR CHOSEN EMPLOYER and set THEIR policy for THEM.
>
>Jon COULD (and apparently has figured out that he can) go find
a DIFFERENT
>employer, one with policies more to his liking. There is no
shortage of
>employers with policies agreeable to Jon, as he has (right
here) admitted.
>
OK, I'll grant that if he was a new hire, that knew full well
the company policy regarding smoking and that it was
unacceptable, you're right. It was my impression that he had
been working there and was subsequently forced into a new
environment filled with poisons. If I was wrong, I apologize to
The Great and Wonderful Karl.
>>The double-standard is alive and well on RGP. "Ain't it cool?"
>>
>>-Cody
>
>Facism is alive and well too, and its spelled C.O.D.Y.
>
That's "Fascism", twit. And nowhere did I suggest that fascist
regulations be implemented. Only that one should be able to earn
a living without being poisoned. Shame on me.
By the way, Karl, are you a smoker?
-Cody
fandsw
>
>Karl Denninger <ka...@FS.Denninger.Net> wrote in message
>news:8jatj6$rq2$0...@pita.alt.net...
>> In article <02807823...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
>> cody <codyNO...@cpsinet.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >
a
>> >confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> What part of "you consented to be there" didn't you
understand?
>>
there" isn't
>a valid reason. You could work for a nuclear plant, for
instance, and if
>they refused to supply you with a safe work environment, they
couldn't say
>"well, you consented to be here..." Comeon....
Exactly, what if he contracted the asthma due to this
environment which was not originally there when he started?
There are federal laws to protect employees from work-
environment induced injuries/illness, and protecting employees
from second-hand smoke is included. The company I work for had
to make allowances for this due to federal law by banning
smoking indoors and at all entrances, only allowing it in a
ventilated room out in the company parking deck. Stern Pinball
should also follow these rules or it opens itself up to
litigation from the federal government or individuals affected.
And even if it weren't illegal it would be the moral and right
thing to do.
Frank W.
fan...@att.net
---------------------
fan...@NOSPAM.att.net
Birmingham, Alabama
Ross Hitchins
Quite the topic.
This will always be a very touchy subject, as cigarettes are very addictive,
and it gets to be an emotional subject. People who are addicted will
naturally fight to keep their right to smoke and feed the habit. It's not an
easy habit to quit, for even those who want to quit. Those who are not
smokers will fight for their right for clean air. It is not a win win
situation. Smokers want their right to smoke, non smokers want their right
for clean air. The smart companies are those that try to accomodate both
parties. The companies that do not, end up as the losers as people choose to
leave, hence the problem with Jon. We all have rights, but it's not always
easy to let everyone have them. It's not Jon's fault. It is Stern's for not
trying to accomodate the workers that are thier most valuable resource.
Rexxx <cbro...@home.com> wrote in message
news:238764fc...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
jason
Did you ever stop to think that mabe the smoke caused his
asthma. I smoked for years and guess what, I have 3 inhalers
that I need to use every day and if I smell second hand smoke it
takes my breath away. Mabe he put up with it as long as he
could and it finally forced him to make a descision between the
job or his health. I can't believe you are putting this guy
down like this for being concerned for his own well being.
Orion72101
also includes the freedom for an individual to restrain himself from doing
things that are harmful to others. No, I do not condone taking a dump on the
floor or playing rap music as loud as I can or any other of the silly examples
that you want to come up with. I do condone letting adult people restrain
themselves and not having a mandate for every thing on earth that may in some
way be unsavory to another.
No, I am not stuck on myself,
Tom DeAngelo
Kellie
Geez everyone... calm down. RGP is so dramatic today! We're talking about
smoking here, not the end of the world. I think it's sad that Jon was upset
enough that he would start trashing things you and I would "kill" for,
but... before we start jumping on Stern and each other, remember, there are
always two sides to every story.
My opinion on smoking is.. to each his own. You don't like my smoke, stay
out of my space. I don't like your smoke, stay out of my space. If you
don't have your on space, smoking should be limited to outdoors. We don't
know at this point what Stern's policies are about that, now do we? Still
yet, I don't understand why everyone is making such a big stink about this.
Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
Kellie
john shields
bust once and for all. Want some smoke blown in your face? I smoke rothman's
cigarettes. Everbody is quitting because of busted flippers. 15 years of busted
flippers. 15 years how many people asked what to do on your pinball machines when
the flippers just broke? Phillip morris rules the world of tobacco i rule the world
of pinball. I hope you got no pension.
Outlane wrote:
> So-long Pinball :-(
john shields
of all that asthma. Maybe you should get off your ass for once in your life and do
something like walking up a few flights of stairs.
john shields
you want? P.S. my grandfather smoked 10 coronas or the finest cigars and
drank two 40 ouncers every-day of his life since he was 16. He is age 97
that's right 97 now for all you non-smokers try smoking 10 cigars every-day
and inhaling them. If you get thirsty just drink some top of the line
booze.
gwoodcock wrote:
> Duncan Brown <brow...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Outlane wrote:
> >>
> >> Farewell to Pinball
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday,
> including several
> >> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years
> of reference
> >> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball
> Book, including
> >> about 500 Slides
> >
Mitch
ask for it, is personal freedom?
Then walking up to someone on the street and punching them in the lip
is personal freedom, too?
I hope that in the near future smoking is outlawed in every public
place.
I'm amazed that Stern allows smoking in the office...Jon should sue
them.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Craig Tiano
Well Karl, I see you're being yourself...angry, bigoted, and
non-conciliatory...
No one should be forced to work in an environment which could prove
hazardous to their heath if reasonable accomodations can be made to
fix the cause of the hazard. In this case, the company was given
several seemingly reasonable suggestions on how to alleviate the
ashma-related symptoms caused by smoking in the workplace. The company
decided to take none of them and offered no suggestions of their own,
so Jon left. If you were as sensitive to smoke as some of the rest of
us, myself included, you'd know that even standing next to someone
holding (not even smoking) a lit cigarette is enough to cause
shortness of breath or a complete respiratory attack (if you've never
had one, imagine lying on the floor with a Hercules pinball machine
laying on top of you compressing your chest and making it virtually
impossible to breathe). How would you like to work 8 hours per day
where you couldn't breathe and felt lightheaded? Oh, I forgot, you
sold your company and now don't work anymore...
Who is the loser here? I'd say Stern...
Craig
ka...@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl Denninger) wrote:
>In article <20000627102201...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
>Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Farewell to Pinball
>>
>>This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
>>am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
>>Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
>>companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
>>Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
>>of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
>
>>Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and experienced
>>hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
>>Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web Design
>>(HTML and Javascript).
>
>I wouldn't hire a known and admitted dishonest worker - one who will take a
>job at a company knowing of its policy on smoking and then try to FORCE them
>to change it for their whim - for any amount of money.
>
>>Good Bye.
>>Jon Norris
>
>Good riddance.
>
>--
Craig Tiano,
Norristown, PA.
Steve Baumgarten
Duncan Brown <brow...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
> My parents both smoked when I was growing up, so I kind of got used
> to it. But once I started working for a smoke-free company (about 14
> years ago) and the area I was living in made all public places like
> stores non-smoking, I was amazed what an effect it had on me on the
> now-rare occasions when I was forced to choke down secondhand smoke.
> I'm amazed in this day and age (even in Chicago) that a non-smoker
> would run into that much trouble asserting their rights to clean
> air...
Me too, but then again I work in New York City, where such a barbarous
practices -- unrestricted smoking in any area of the workplace -- has
been banned for many years now. Smoking is allowed in private offices
only, and even then there are caveats if there are more than a certain
number of people occupying the office. Most people in NYC -- even many
smokers -- seem to think that this is A Good Thing. (Though obviously
your mileage will vary, as it seems to be in whatever part of Illinois
that Stern is located in.)
I still remember when Steve Epstein decided that the Broadway Arcade
should become a smoke-free environment. We lost a great player --
Jelly Cartegena -- who smoked and said he wouldn't play there anymore
if Steve changed the rules. But change them he did, and Jelly didn't
come back (or if he did it was only much later, and then infrequently,
because I never ran into him and he stopped playing in the leagues).
The result (other than the loss of Jelly, which in truth meant that the
#1 slot on the high score tables on many of the machines suddenly
opened up) was literally a breath of fresh air. It became so much more
pleasant to play there -- and yet like you I was sort of OK with the
smoke for a long time (I'm guessing this happened around 10 years ago,
so that means I played there, surrounded by smoke, on and off for 13
years prior to that).
Last, although I Am Not A Lawyer, the poster who mentioned that there
are ADA-related issues here, is, I think, right on target. I have no
doubt that Jon could cause Stern a lot of trouble over their refusal to
accommodate his medical condition. Pre ADA you could get away with the
old "if you don't like it, leave" business -- but not anymore. Stern's
management is on shaky ground if all the facts of the case are as Jon
has presented them.
Getting back to pinball, let me close by saying (as many others already
have) what a shame it is about Jon and the loss to pinball this
represents. He's a truly nice and talented guy, and this sort of thing
shouldn't happen to anyone.
SBB
Keith Johnson
john shields <j.sh...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:39591900...@sympatico.ca...
> Jon it's never too late to take up smoking. Come on it's good for you
it'll get rid
> of all that asthma. Maybe you should get off your ass for once in your
life and do
> something like walking up a few flights of stairs.
This is a complete elephant's assload of shit. Jon is one of the most fit
people that I personally know. Making a comment like this is completely
ignorant, not that I'd expect any different from you, but just thought I'd
set the record straight. It is possible to be in perfect shape, yet still
have asthma.
Caving in to the troll,
keith
larry
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/quitting000627.html
and stern sucks for not making any effort to accomodate him. Jeez.. all
he wanted was (relatively) clean air to breathe. How hard would it be
to make a small bit of the building non-smoking?
Mitch wrote:
>
> So spewing poison into a person's face who doesn't want it and didn't
> ask for it, is personal freedom?
>
> Then walking up to someone on the street and punching them in the lip
> is personal freedom, too?
>
> I hope that in the near future smoking is outlawed in every public
> place.
>
> I'm amazed that Stern allows smoking in the office...Jon should sue
> them.
>
Orion72101
is personal freedom, but you run the risk of getting punched back or stabbed or
shot in return. I never said personal freedom was without risk. You obviously
did not see my last post to this thread.
Tom DeAngelo
Keith Stelter
We're losing one of the Greatest assets to the pinball industry and hobby
here!!! You guys are fighting over the wrong thing!!!
Hell, I'd buy Jon a NASA Surplus SPACE SUIT to wear at work if he will stick
with the business!!!!
Let's focus on the IMPORTANT ISSUE HERE!!!!
IDIOTS!!!
Craig Tiano <cti...@voicenet.com> wrote in message
news:m87ils8j84vmp4ilf...@4ax.com...
brettbags
really have much freedom because your a slave to a PLANT of
all things. I always thought the US was ahead of the rest
of the world, smoking in the workplace is almost medievil.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
larry
how dangerous it is to toss lit butts out the windows during dry summer
months.
P.S. You should reconfigure your newsreader to post in plain text, not
html.
David O'Neil wrote:
>
>
>
> Trey Dembski wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > The smokers I can't stand are the people that toss out
> > still-burning cigarettes onto the ground, letting everyone that
> > passes by choke
> > for a few seconds from a cigarette they're no longer smoking! And I
> > won't even
> > get into litter laws that smokers seem to think they're above (SOME
> > smokers,
> > that is).
> >
>
> That's how the median fires along the highways this summer will be
> started.
>
> Dave
larry
> landfill
It doesn't take a very thick psychology book to determine when a person
(Karl) is a jerk. Fortunately there aren't many people like him out
there
larry
> when there were rain storms, snow storms, cold weather, hot weather. No matter
> what, I respected Jon's wishes as did others. So we changed our rules to
> accomodate one persons requests. As far as Jon throwing out all his pinball
Soo.. why did the rules change back when you moved back to the other
building? If you guys knew that cigarette smoke tore him up inside, why
did people suddenly feel the need to smoke in the new building?
Not accusing.. just wondering.. something like this should have stopped
at common courtesy and never reached the point where he had to quit.
D. Halligan
> If anyone out there is truly for total freedom from government interference,
> and doesn't mind allowing EVERYONE to exercise freedom in whatever way they
> choose, that's a perfectly valid opinion. But you can't have it both ways.
> Either it's ok to do whatever the hell you want, basically telling whoever
> doesn't like what you're doing to piss off, or you should not be allowed to
> behave in a way that infringes on other peoples rights. You can't pick and
> choose.
Yes, it's all black and white, we must have government totally control our
lives or everyone must be able to do whatever they want. Anarchism or
Totalitarianism, forget democracy. Right.
In reality in the US we have a constitution that protects some freedoms
and upholds some laws, the details are worked out through the courts by
people that have the balls to stand up against unjust laws. Now no one
believes all laws are just, but also very few of us believe in no laws at
all. We are all in the middle, it's not one way or the other like you say
above. We want basic clear laws that gaurantee our freedoms, but don't
allow people to rob, kill, and rape us. Whining over if a private business
wants to allow smoking or not seems so trivial, I think most people would
believe a private business can decide their own policies on these types of
issues as long as the fall under the basic laws of standards of work. If
they guy had a union contract, worker's rights laws, or health standard
laws that protected him, by all means he should use that in court and sue
the company. But whining about needing more laws or how smoking is dumb is
pointless, we don't need more laws and smoking is dumb, but it's a
personal choice, we don't need the government telling us what we can and
can't put in our bodies or how we should run our businesses. -dan
John Robertson
Fascinating, here in British Columbia smoking is outlawed in public
serving areas (stores, etc) and there is even an effort being made by
Workmans Compensation Board. to bad smoking in ALL work places.
Including BARS! This has a LOT of support here, and it turns out that
many bars make MORE money after a temporary ban of smoking due to
people coming in that hated smokey bars, and also folks could taste
the food so they bought more...
I wish I could have a business making pinballs here in Vancouver, my
shop has always been a no-smoking zone...any others out there?
John :-#(#
On 27 Jun 2000 14:22:01 GMT, out...@aol.com (Outlane) wrote:
>Farewell to Pinball
>
>This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember that I
>am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
>Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me by the
>companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
>Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small minority
>of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
>
>I had suggested that the new offices be made into a "Non-Smoking" section,
>where people who have problems with smoke can exist. I was told "Absolutely
>NOT".
>
>I suggested that Smokers must take their "Smoke Breaks" at Designated times.
>Again NO! (The reason for the "Smoke Friendly [Hostile]" policy is that there
>are concerns over a person at the end of their Cigarette break, ready to come
>back in to their desk will continue to chat with someone who had just beginning
>to take their break.)
>
>I suggested on working out a Telecommuting/Consulting scheme, and
>again was told NO. (No concern over a double standard)
>
>Finally, I suggested that my office be isolated from the rest, with a door out
>to the Non-smoking factory. (My intended office has a window out to the
>factory) Again, NO
>
>One of my greatest strengths is problem solving. Well, I came up against a
>brick wall so I must leave and throw away my entire career.
>
>(I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
>Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
>items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
>about 500 Slides
>
>So-long Pinball :-(
>
>
>I will probably be changing my "Outlane" screen name, so use my web site to
>contact me. <A HREF="http://www.dreamlandscapes.com">Dreamlandscapes</A>
>
>Watch eBay for several auctions in July. I will be
>auctioning off all of my remaining Pinball items, including:
>
>Shuffleball
>
>(The True First Flipper Pinball Machine, date- 1932)
>
>This is the only copy that I have ever seen. Pinball's HOLY GRAIL.
>
>Start bid will be $3,000 with no reserve. Other Pinball Items will include
>mostly Butyrate pieces. I will also sell my Corvette at 'Wholesale' as the
>starting bid with no reserve.
>
>Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and experienced
>hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
>Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web Design
>(HTML and Javascript).
>
>Good Bye.
>Jon Norris
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
mailto:j...@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
John Robertson
John :-#)#
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:38:25 -0400, larry <larry...@itpms.com>
wrote:
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup)
Mitch
orion...@aol.com (Orion72101) wrote:
> I do condone letting adult people restrain
> themselves and not having a mandate for every thing on earth that may
>in some> way be unsavory to another.
>
That's true in one's personal life, but not in the workplace.
A guy has to quit his job so some addict can get his nicotine fix?
If he sued, he would win a nice settlement.
Outlane
I just sent that guy a jpeg of me. (I go to the Gym several times per week) I
tried to keep out of this thread, but I could not resist.
First, The materials that I discarded were all digital images that I had
scanned in. Sam Harvey has all of the originals.
Second, I am venting due to the frustration of the situation.
I will not sue Stern Pinball over this.(Whether I have a case or not) I need to
put the past behind me and move onto the future.
I left Pinball as my career, but the hobby will remain, although I will own no
games.
Now I need to concentrate on my future, not my past.
Jon Norris
Kevin Myers
>PARTICULAR CHOSEN EMPLOYER and set THEIR policy for THEM.
>
>Jon COULD (and apparently has figured out that he can) go find a DIFFERENT
>employer, one with policies more to his liking. There is no shortage of
>employers with policies agreeable to Jon, as he has (right here) admitted.
Yes, we're all aware of the sheer abundance of pinball manufacturers out there!
Must be at least..... uh..... one?!
Kevin Myers
Kevin Myers
>also includes the freedom for an individual to restrain himself from doing
>things that are harmful to others. No, I do not condone taking a dump on
>the
>floor or playing rap music as loud as I can or any other of the silly examples
>themselves and not having a mandate for every thing on earth that may in
>some
>way be unsavory to another.
>Tom DeAngelo
The problem with this is that a percentage of people WILL NOT restrain
themselves. There's no doubt in my mind that I could carry an UZI with me
whenever I went out in public and never shoot anyone (not that I have any
desire to do so.....). Let everyone do so and i'm sure that mass murders would
become a daily thing. Extreme example, yes but the point is relevant all the
same.
Kevin Myers
Kurt van Zyl
"Dave Stambaugh" <pin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:WH465.4108$_b3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> what a dork
>
> "Karl Denninger" <ka...@FS.Denninger.Net> wrote in message
> news:8jajer$9nk$0...@pita.alt.net...
> > In article <20000627102201...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
> > Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >Farewell to Pinball
> > >
> > >This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to
remember
> that I
> > >am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing.
The
> > >Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon
me
> by the
> > >companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in
a
> > >Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small
> minority
> > >of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
> >
> > Your attempt is outrageous, and I'm glad that Stern had the balls to
stand
> > up to your attempted intimidation and extortion and tell you to stick it
> > where the sun doesn't shine.
> >
> > As for your pinball things being tossed, good for you, and good for the
> > bonfire.
> >
> > May the smoke from the bonfire infest your lungs.
> >
> > >Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and
> experienced
> > >hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
> > >Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web
> Design
> > >(HTML and Javascript).
> >
> > I wouldn't hire a known and admitted dishonest worker - one who will
take
> a
> > job at a company knowing of its policy on smoking and then try to FORCE
> them
> > to change it for their whim - for any amount of money.
> >
> > >Good Bye.
> > >Jon Norris
> >
> > Good riddance.
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
> Activist
> > http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
> > http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
> >
>
>
>
Duncan Brown
<kva...@nospam.cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>Gee, I wonder if he's a smoker?
Probably not, he's just pathologically argumentative and thrives on
the misfortunes of others (in particular, people in the pinball
industry?! I wonder what happened in his childhood to bring on this
affliction...?)
If Jon had quit because he *wanted* to smoke and Stern wouldn't let
him, Karl would be arguing that he had no right to pollute others'
air.
BKAR19
After Jon had started the rules changed to make it a smoke free building.
when there were rain storms, snow storms, cold weather, hot weather. No matter
what, I respected Jon's wishes as did others. So we changed our rules to
accomodate one persons requests. As far as Jon throwing out all his pinball
do with it and not throw everything away that was valuable and a part of my
life for the past 15 years. That makes no sense to me.
Kevin Myers
>http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
>http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
Children's rights? Like their right to light up in the classroom? It's scary to
think that someone as backward-thinking as yourself would have any involvement
in children's rights. I can see it now; the sweat shops replacing their illegal
immigrant workers with our kids after you've secured their "right" to work
instead of going to school. scary, indeed.
Kevin Myers
Kevin Myers
>
>So you want to quit before all the flippers that stern ever made all
completely
>bust once and for all. Want some smoke blown in your face? I smoke rothman's
>cigarettes. Everbody is quitting because of busted flippers. 15 years of
>busted
>flippers. 15 years how many people asked what to do on your pinball machines
>when
>the flippers just broke? Phillip morris rules the world of tobacco i rule
>the world
>of pinball. I hope you got no pension.
Andrew
>On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 02:59:56 GMT, "Kurt van Zyl"
><kva...@nospam.cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Gee, I wonder if he's a smoker?
>
>Probably not, he's just pathologically argumentative and thrives on
>the misfortunes of others (in particular, people in the pinball
>industry?! I wonder what happened in his childhood to bring on this
>affliction...?)
>
>If Jon had quit because he *wanted* to smoke and Stern wouldn't let
>him, Karl would be arguing that he had no right to pollute others'
>air.
>
True, True...
Andrew
and...@hotHOTHOTmail.com
For those that want to e-mail,
Hotmail only has one hot in it!
twopl...@aol.com
Don't know you but sorry to hear such an unfortunate story.
I clearly understand both sides of the fence. It's tough.
You did what was best for you. Tossing your stuff
is irrelevant. It's yours, do what you want. Tossing your
career is your choice too. Good Luck.
But in all this, I figured something out. If the average smoker
spends let's say 15 minutes per hour smoking (that's 5 minutes
getting ready to go, 2.5 minutes getting there, 5 minutes smoking
and 2.5 minutes coming back, that means that for every smoker
in the building, Stern gets screwed out of 2 hours per day per
smoker. And if they've got 20 smokers, that's 1 full workweek
per day! That means that if everyone at Stern quit smoking for
just 1 week, they could afford to bring in a game designer to
consult with them for 1 month! Imagine the good it would do!
It would really help make everyone healthy... and wealthy.
That's it.. Just keep smoking. It's killing your business.
F J BROWN
offspring.............
>P.S. my grandfather smoked 10 coronas or the finest cigars and
>drank two 40 ouncers every-day of his life since he was 16. He is age 97
>that's right 97 now for all you non-smokers try smoking 10 cigars every-day
>and inhaling them. If you get thirsty just drink some top of the line
>booze.
Karl Denninger
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
In article <MSd65.40634$74.1...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>,
Kurt van Zyl <kva...@nospam.cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>Gee, I wonder if he's a smoker?
>
Karl Denninger
I am putting him down for trying to ENFORCE a change of workplace policy
upon an employer when he *knew their policy when he was hired*.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
In article <0f95d4be...@usw-ex0101-006.remarq.com>,
jason <jason_wb...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>Karl,
>
>Did you ever stop to think that mabe the smoke caused his
>asthma. I smoked for years and guess what, I have 3 inhalers
>that I need to use every day and if I smell second hand smoke it
>takes my breath away. Mabe he put up with it as long as he
>could and it finally forced him to make a descision between the
>job or his health. I can't believe you are putting this guy
>down like this for being concerned for his own well being.
>
>Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
>Up to 100 minutes free!
>http://www.keen.com
>
Karl Denninger
If he had, THEN he would be on solid ground.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
In article <m87ils8j84vmp4ilf...@4ax.com>,
Craig Tiano <cti...@voicenet.com> wrote:
>
>Well Karl, I see you're being yourself...angry, bigoted, and
>non-conciliatory...
>
>No one should be forced to work in an environment which could prove
>hazardous to their heath if reasonable accomodations can be made to
>fix the cause of the hazard. In this case, the company was given
>several seemingly reasonable suggestions on how to alleviate the
>ashma-related symptoms caused by smoking in the workplace. The company
>decided to take none of them and offered no suggestions of their own,
>so Jon left. If you were as sensitive to smoke as some of the rest of
>us, myself included, you'd know that even standing next to someone
>holding (not even smoking) a lit cigarette is enough to cause
>shortness of breath or a complete respiratory attack (if you've never
>had one, imagine lying on the floor with a Hercules pinball machine
>laying on top of you compressing your chest and making it virtually
>impossible to breathe). How would you like to work 8 hours per day
>where you couldn't breathe and felt lightheaded? Oh, I forgot, you
>sold your company and now don't work anymore...
>
>Who is the loser here? I'd say Stern...
>
>Craig
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ka...@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl Denninger) wrote:
>
>Craig Tiano,
>Norristown, PA.
>
Karl Denninger
>> In article <02807823...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
>> cody <codyNO...@cpsinet.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >Fact: Cigarette smoke contains hazardous poisons. Persons in a
>> >confined area with smokers are subject to those poisons.
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> What part of "you consented to be there" didn't you understand?
>>
>While this whole issue is somewhat off-topic, "consented to be there" isn't
>a valid reason. You could work for a nuclear plant, for instance, and if
>they refused to supply you with a safe work environment, they couldn't say
>"well, you consented to be here..." Comeon....
Again, you're talking about two different things.
Smoking is a consensual activity. Tobacco is also legal (poisoning someone
with radioactivity is not)
I did contract work in Chicago for a company once that banned smoking by
employees ON OR OFF THE JOB, and banned POSESSION of smoking materials (not
just their consumption) on company premesis. If evidence was rendered
to him that you in fact had a tobacco habit, or you were caught with tobacco
on the premesis, you were fired instantly. No appeal, no maybes, no ifs,
ands or buts (or, for that matter, butts).
The owner was sued over this policy AND WON - TWICE.
Why did he do this? I asked him - he gave me two reasons:
1. They were in the paper party products business. One spark in their
warehouse and POOF! Instant conflageration. No way to put it out
until hundreds of thousands (or more) of damage would have been
done, and the water from the sprinklers would destroy whatever
didn't burn in the warehouse anyway.
2. It got them an INCREDIBLE break on their health insurance benefit
premiums AND their fire premium. Like 60%. Since the company PAID
a good part of that cost (as do all firms with health insurance)
the economics were obvious.
Made sense to me.
He made it CLEAR when you applied for a job what the rules were. If you
smoked you didn't work there. Period. If you didn't like that, go find
another job.
Exactly how is this different than STERN's policy? Note that STERN doesn't
force you to be exposed to smoke when you are NOT working, while this guy
forced you NOT to smoke - working or not!
Karl Denninger
is permitted you need a COMPLETELY separate air supply, HVAC and other air
handling equipment.
I have installed such for a SMALL computer room where air quality was
extremely important, and where the rest of the building had questionable
air quality for other reasons. The cost for that small room (about the size
of a small office) was north of $50,000.
"How hard"? There's your answer, and the bottom line appears to be that
Jon wanted STERN to pay the bill, when he knew damn well when he took the
job that they permitted smoking in the facility.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
In article <3959269D...@itpms.com>, larry <larry...@itpms.com> wrote:
>Smoking article at abcnews.com here..
>
>http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/quitting000627.html
>
>and stern sucks for not making any effort to accomodate him. Jeez.. all
>he wanted was (relatively) clean air to breathe. How hard would it be
>to make a small bit of the building non-smoking?
>
>Mitch wrote:
>>
>> So spewing poison into a person's face who doesn't want it and didn't
>> ask for it, is personal freedom?
>>
>> Then walking up to someone on the street and punching them in the lip
>> is personal freedom, too?
>>
>> I hope that in the near future smoking is outlawed in every public
>> place.
>>
>> I'm amazed that Stern allows smoking in the office...Jon should sue
>> them.
Joe Schober
>To completely remove all risk of second-hand smoke from a building where
>it is permitted you need a COMPLETELY separate air supply, HVAC and other
>air handling equipment.
>
>I have installed such for a SMALL computer room where air quality was
>extremely important, and where the rest of the building had questionable
>air quality for other reasons. The cost for that small room (about the
>size of a small office) was north of $50,000.
I don't know Jon's specific health situation, but there's a good chance that if
a wing of the building, perhaps behind a closed door, was made non-smoking,
that may have distanced and dispersed the smoke enough to allow Jon to work
comfortably. I doubt he was seeking a cleanroom facility, which is basically
what you're describing.
But then again, you don't have enough of a brain to comprehend the difference.
>"How hard"? There's your answer, and the bottom line appears to be that
>Jon wanted STERN to pay the bill, when he knew damn well when he took
>the job that they permitted smoking in the facility.
Based on Keefer's comments, they did NOT permit smoking when Jon started
working there, so your statement is simply wrong. As usual.
So, nevermind if Karl smokes -- does Gary Stern smoke?
Jon -- I'm truly sorry that you've decided to leave the pinball business,
especially for a situation such as this. I've never met you, but you strike me
as a good guy, and I appreciate your contributions to the game. Good luck to
you in the future!
--Joe
E.Rossi
able to think about your country with another approach.
Here in italy, about 35% of the population are smokers. Most of them smoke
cigarettes, 40% are women and 60% men.
We have many laws that rule smoke, but, as very common in Italy, they remain
written on the paper, many don't know them, few respect them.
I've been to California twice and I was amazed to see that you're not
allowed to smoke in so many places and, most important thing, that people
respect law.
In italy we're not allowed to smoke in many places too, like hospitals,
cinemas, theatres, but in many others we still can, like airports, pubs,
restaurants, discos.....
In many work-places, and that's the point Jon, you can see a sign on the
wall "Vietato fumare", in english "Smoke is outlaw" but no one really cares
of it! It's very common to see people smoking everywhere and no one says
nothing. Why? Because there's no fine at all! It's only like a sort of
suggestion: if you want, don't smoke; if not, then you can light your piece
of cancer and feel free to let it inhale to your colleagues! That's all.
Let me tell you one thing: I've smoked for 10 years. I used to smoke only if
I were alone or with other smokers. I never smoked in presence of childrens
or non-smokers, nor in restaurants or at work. I think that's the only way
to go, at least in a civilised country.
Jon, I can't believe they didn't give you a privat office or put you in a
smoke free zone. Don't give up, fight for the rights of an healthy life!
Enrico
Torino - Italy
(TAF-Sinbad)
Duncan Brown
wrote:
>Nope. Nice try, but nope.
Ha! I was right!
Duncan, who should install a couch out at the landfill so he could see
patients
Duncan Brown
wrote:
>I'm not putting him down for being concerned for his own well-being.
>
>I am putting him down for trying to ENFORCE a change of workplace policy
>upon an employer when he *knew their policy when he was hired*.
Wow, deja vu.
Nice line of reasoning, except that ONCE AGAIN it is *wrong*. If you
had read his original post carefully (yeah, I know, good luck), or any
of various replies since then that spelled it out so carefully you'd
have to be very thick-headed not to get it, you would know that the
working conditions had changed out from under him. And he didn't even
remotely try to change a workplace policy. He made all kinds of
suggestions as to compromises, but none of them met with success.
Duncan, who shouldn't even bother
Iain Odlin
>(I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
>Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
>items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
>about 500 Slides
I can understand the smoking stuff, but exactly what purpose was *this*
serving?
More to the point: Why tell us? So we can all be mad at you for
irretrievably destroying God-only-knows what chunk of pinball history?
-Iain
Scott Piehler
I was also sorry to see this thread deteriorate into another round of
the Karl Denniger ego-show. Don't know who peed in your Wheaties,
Karl, but I'm glad I don't carry around that much bile in my system.
As far as it being all Jon's fault, while much of your analysis about
personal choice is correct, you do conveniently gloss over the
"reasonable accomodations" portion of the Americans with Disabilities
Act. If Jon was leaving because they wouldn't put a wheelchair ramp
the office, this story would be front page news.
Of course, the whole Denniger side-show detracts from the real
issue-pinball just lost one of the good guys.
Thanks for the memories Jon.
Scott
Scott Piehler ros...@mindspring.com
An archive of Pinball Rulesheets,
as well as a listing of new pinball
machines in the Atlanta Area can be found at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~rosco29/pinball.htm
Orin Day
ka...@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl Denninger) wrote:
> [snip]
Karl,
Here's hoping you drain early and often.
--
Hey Squid Boy....Wait a minute...
Orin Day
larry <larry...@itpms.com> wrote:
> > Everyone that smoked went outside to have a cigarette. I even went
outside
> > when there were rain storms, snow storms, cold weather, hot weather.
No matter
> > what, I respected Jon's wishes as did others. So we changed our
rules to
> > accomodate one persons requests. As far as Jon throwing out all his
pinball
>
> building? If you guys knew that cigarette smoke tore him up inside,
> why did people suddenly feel the need to smoke in the new building?
Management is in the building that engineering is moving to, just about
everyone in Management smokes, and they make the rules.
Outlane
had to go outside to smoke. The policy for engineering changed on monday
6/26/00 to Smoke Friendly when that office was closed and the department was
moved to another building.
Jon Norris
Karl Denninger
All of which involved his employer spending money SOLELY FOR HIM.
Karl Denninger
So, knowing that the administation / management smoked, and that the
building in which they worked was smoke-friendly, you still took the
job and did not insist as a matter of your work agreement that you be
provided a smoke-free environment to do so in?
This is THEIR fault?
Let me guess - you think they should have left an entire facility open (at
whatever expense that would have been) just for you, right?
Karl Denninger
He wanted to throw a three-year-old temper tantrum. And he did.
Keith P. Johnson
wrote:
>All of which involved his employer spending money SOLELY FOR HIM.
Ah, see, that's bullshit. There are many non-smokers that would be
MORE than happy to be in a smoke-free or much less smokey environment.
It just so happens that it doesn't outright physically cripple the
rest of us like it does Jon.
keith
--
At one time I had random Your Mother jokes down here.
Maybe someday they'll return...
Clive Jones
>O.K. - smoking hasn't killed him...but look what it did to his
>offspring.............
>
LOL!
Clive
Clive Jones
wrote:
>In article <20000628095946...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
>Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote:
>>When I was hired 1996, the Engineering building was Smoke Free. Even Gary Stern
>>had to go outside to smoke. The policy for engineering changed on monday
>>6/26/00 to Smoke Friendly when that office was closed and the department was
>>moved to another building.
>>
>>Jon Norris
>
>So, knowing that the administation / management smoked, and that the
>building in which they worked was smoke-friendly, you still took the
>job and did not insist as a matter of your work agreement that you be
>provided a smoke-free environment to do so in?
>
>This is THEIR fault?
>
>Let me guess - you think they should have left an entire facility open (at
>whatever expense that would have been) just for you, right?
>
If it were a DECENT company (yes, I meant that), they WOULD provide a
seperate area for smokers. The fact is, from where I'm sitting, Stern
value a smokey atmosphere more than their employees. How very, very
sad. Actions speak louder than words.
(Jon: Sorry to hear you're out of pinball again. I hope it works out.)
Clive
Keith P. Johnson
himself wouldn't bother to chop it off and skullfuck it.
On 28 Jun 2000 14:42:33 GMT, ka...@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl Denninger)
wrote:
>So, knowing that the administation / management smoked, and that the
>building in which they worked was smoke-friendly, you still took the
>job and did not insist as a matter of your work agreement that you be
>provided a smoke-free environment to do so in?
As you seem to continually conviently ignore to enable yourself to
antagonize people further for no reason (child abuse?), there were no
immediate plans to consolidate into the administration
building/factory. As you can see, it took many many years. This
isn't really brain surgery here, though perhaps some is needed.
>Let me guess - you think they should have left an entire facility open (at
>whatever expense that would have been) just for you, right?
No, there are other non-smokers than just him. It just happens to be
overtly LIFE THREATENING for him.
Dave Stambaugh
"Keith P. Johnson" <kee...@logicalalt.com> wrote in message
news:6e7kls8a5gjaufbc0...@4ax.com...
Jim Hicks
thread. Employers are required by law to spend money for specific
individuals all the time.
It's over Karl. Give this one up. Your technical contributions (some
of which have been quite good) are very welcome in this group. Your "I
know best" threads grow annoying quite quickly.
> >Nice line of reasoning, except that ONCE AGAIN it is *wrong*. If you
> >had read his original post carefully (yeah, I know, good luck), or any
> >of various replies since then that spelled it out so carefully you'd
> >have to be very thick-headed not to get it, you would know that the
> >working conditions had changed out from under him. And he didn't even
> >remotely try to change a workplace policy. He made all kinds of
> >suggestions as to compromises, but none of them met with success.
>
Dave Stambaugh
most off-topic posts is: JON NORRIS LEAVES STERN PINBALL!!
"Outlane" <out...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000627102201...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> Farewell to Pinball
>
> This closes a long 15 year chapter in my life. I want people to remember
that I
> am quitting and throwing away those fifteen years not of my choosing. The
> Tobacco Companies win and I lose. This decision block was forced upon me
by the
> companies "Smoke Freindly" policy. I have Asthma and can not even be in a
> Smokey environment. I find that Stern Pinball is one in a very small
minority
> of companies that still allow this unhealthful practice.
>
> I had suggested that the new offices be made into a "Non-Smoking" section,
> where people who have problems with smoke can exist. I was told
"Absolutely
> NOT".
>
> I suggested that Smokers must take their "Smoke Breaks" at Designated
times.
> Again NO! (The reason for the "Smoke Friendly [Hostile]" policy is that
there
> are concerns over a person at the end of their Cigarette break, ready to
come
> back in to their desk will continue to chat with someone who had just
beginning
> to take their break.)
>
> I suggested on working out a Telecommuting/Consulting scheme, and
> again was told NO. (No concern over a double standard)
>
> Finally, I suggested that my office be isolated from the rest, with a door
out
> to the Non-smoking factory. (My intended office has a window out to the
> factory) Again, NO
>
> One of my greatest strengths is problem solving. Well, I came up against a
> brick wall so I must leave and throw away my entire career.
>
> (I threw away all of my Pinball related items on Monday, including several
> Trophies and hundreds of Pinball related Photos, and 20 years of reference
> items) I also threw away all of my materials for a Pinball Book, including
> about 500 Slides
>
> So-long Pinball
>
>
> I will probably be changing my "Outlane" screen name, so use my web site
to
> contact me. <A HREF="http://www.dreamlandscapes.com">Dreamlandscapes</A>
>
> Watch eBay for several auctions in July. I will be
> auctioning off all of my remaining Pinball items, including:
>
> Shuffleball
>
> (The True First Flipper Pinball Machine, date- 1932)
>
> This is the only copy that I have ever seen. Pinball's HOLY GRAIL.
>
> Start bid will be $3,000 with no reserve. Other Pinball Items will include
> mostly Butyrate pieces. I will also sell my Corvette at 'Wholesale' as
the
> starting bid with no reserve.
>
> Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a loyal, creative, and
experienced
> hard worker, then look me up. I have experience in Product Development,
> Compliance Engineering (UL, IEC, CSA), Project Management, and some Web
Design
> (HTML and Javascript).
>
> Good Bye.
> Jon Norris
>
cody
Not to be combative, but I think this thread is very on-topic.
The single remaining pinball manufacturer has adopted archaic,
draconian policies in their workplace. I feel this is absolutely
on-topic, and Stern should reconsider this decision.
-Cody
Are you a completely brainless moron given to bouts of depression and
uncontrollable fits of rectal spasms? If so, and you've
Karl Denninger
Keith P. Johnson <kee...@logicalalt.com> wrote:
>On 28 Jun 2000 14:40:39 GMT, ka...@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl Denninger)
>wrote:
>
>>All of which involved his employer spending money SOLELY FOR HIM.
>
>MORE than happy to be in a smoke-free or much less smokey environment.
>It just so happens that it doesn't outright physically cripple the
>rest of us like it does Jon.
>
>keith
So what?
Those people didn't demand money be spent *solely on them*.
I bet STERN would have been willing to re-do Jon's office - as long as
Jon footed the bill.
Karl Denninger
interests does is raise the bar on their employment in the first place.
If you want to put people out of work, just be honest about it and say so.
Because that is the EXACT result that these laws have, despite the whining
that someone "deserves" these accomodations.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
In article <395A25CF...@attglobal.net>,
Karl Denninger
Clive Jones <cli...@clivej.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 28 Jun 2000 14:42:33 GMT, ka...@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl Denninger)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <20000628095946...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
>>Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>When I was hired 1996, the Engineering building was Smoke Free. Even Gary Stern
>>>had to go outside to smoke. The policy for engineering changed on monday
>>>6/26/00 to Smoke Friendly when that office was closed and the department was
>>>moved to another building.
>>>
>>>Jon Norris
>>
>>building in which they worked was smoke-friendly, you still took the
>>job and did not insist as a matter of your work agreement that you be
>>provided a smoke-free environment to do so in?
>>
>>
>>Let me guess - you think they should have left an entire facility open (at
>>whatever expense that would have been) just for you, right?
>>
>
>seperate area for smokers. The fact is, from where I'm sitting, Stern
>value a smokey atmosphere more than their employees. How very, very
>sad. Actions speak louder than words.
STERN values the authority that owning their private property gives them.
To which I say "three cheers."
I wouldn't work in a smoke-filled atmosphere, but I don't question their
right to make the decision that their employees may smoke in their
establishment.
If you know the rules and take the job, you can't whine about it later.
Karl Denninger
>himself wouldn't bother to chop it off and skullfuck it.
>
>>building in which they worked was smoke-friendly, you still took the
>>job and did not insist as a matter of your work agreement that you be
>>provided a smoke-free environment to do so in?
>
>antagonize people further for no reason (child abuse?), there were no
>immediate plans to consolidate into the administration
>building/factory. As you can see, it took many many years.
So what?
>>Let me guess - you think they should have left an entire facility open (at
>>whatever expense that would have been) just for you, right?
>
>No, there are other non-smokers than just him. It just happens to be
>overtly LIFE THREATENING for him.
Fine.
Then he should have written the condition that STERN would provide him a
smoke-free atmosphere into his EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT. If he had done so then
I would support him holding STERN to that agreement.
Not doing so and then attempting to foist off on the employer COSTS THAT
ARE PROPERLY YOURS TO BEAR is pure bullshit and greed.
The only ETHICAL thing for Jon to do in this situation is what he actually
did - which is quit. But the arm-twisting he attempted FIRST (as claimed
here in his post) was and is wrong.
Alex Chapman
its employees, it must do so with an awareness of -- and a financial
accountability toward -- the ramifications. That's basic responsible
action.
And while smoking policy may be up to the employer (I don't know how the
laws work), in many cases the law enforces the above-mentioned
accountability. I feel that Jon's case would VERY easily be protected
by ADA. Are you going to say that a guy in a wheelchair is at fault for
taking a job at a stair-friendly business when his employer leaves its
accessible facility for a facility that is wheelchair-inaccessible?
It's the same thing: The employer is responsible when it makes a change
that renders its own employees unable to do their job.
I'm real big on ADA -- my mother is an engineer with degenerative
hearing loss, and she's had to work very hard to keep from getting swept
by the wayside (despite her seniority and output) because management
assumes that she can't contribute just because she has difficulty
collaborating over the phone. Her employer seems to be quite
unenlightened in disability issues, but they still have a note-taker for
her in meetings.
If you don't like the law, then fine. If you don't like corporate
responsibility or workers' rights, then say so.
Karl Denninger wrote:
Karl Denninger
Thanks much for playing Cody, your ticket to Cuba is waiting.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
In article <1a3b6b64...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
Duncan Brown
Karl Denninger wrote:
>
> Bad laws deserve no respect, and all forcing employers to cater to special
> interests does is raise the bar on their employment in the first place.
>
> If you want to put people out of work, just be honest about it and say so.
> Because that is the EXACT result that these laws have, despite the whining
> that someone "deserves" these accomodations.
You know, I never thought I'd wish a degenerative disease on someone,
and yet in this case...
(Oh, but I forgot. After striking it rich by working out of his
parent's garage, Karl doesn't need to work anymore, so none of this will
ever apply to him anyway. Damn.)
Duncan, who thinks Karl is doing a far better job than he ever could of
making Karl look like a raving imbecile, so he will stop even trying
now...
Karl Denninger
Alex Chapman <jcha...@princeton-please-no.spam-edu.nonsense> wrote:
>Oh, come on. When an employer makes a change in policy that will affect
>its employees, it must do so with an awareness of -- and a financial
>accountability toward -- the ramifications. That's basic responsible
>action.
>
>And while smoking policy may be up to the employer (I don't know how the
>laws work), in many cases the law enforces the above-mentioned
>accountability. I feel that Jon's case would VERY easily be protected
>by ADA. Are you going to say that a guy in a wheelchair is at fault for
>taking a job at a stair-friendly business when his employer leaves its
>accessible facility for a facility that is wheelchair-inaccessible?
>It's the same thing: The employer is responsible when it makes a change
>that renders its own employees unable to do their job.
That "change" was always a possibility and Jon knew it. If you have a
particular issue that would render your ability to work moot then you
negotiate for that in your employment, either collectively (if you're
in a union) or individually (if you're not).
>I'm real big on ADA -- my mother is an engineer with degenerative
>hearing loss, and she's had to work very hard to keep from getting swept
>by the wayside (despite her seniority and output) because management
>assumes that she can't contribute just because she has difficulty
>collaborating over the phone. Her employer seems to be quite
>unenlightened in disability issues, but they still have a note-taker for
>her in meetings.
Your mother should have her salary reduced by the cost of said note-taker.
If she'd make such a concession, she'd have no problem keeping her job.
Instead she thought she'd use the government to point a literal gun at her
employer and force THEM to bear the cost of HER problem.
Its when employees seem to think they can impose costs willy-nilly on
employers that you have problems. One of them is unemployment (of the
people who have such issues). The other is that such costs simply get
factored into the *WAGES THAT EVERYONE EARNS*, which means that you screw
the healthy and fit so that the unhealthy and unfit don't have to pay the
just costs imposed upon them by their condition.
The ADA is nothing other than yet another form of welfare and cost-shifting,
and its wrong.
The UNJUST reality is that these laws and rules depress EVERYONE'S wages,
since an employer, unable to redress the individual situation by firing the
employee involved (or telling them to spend their own money to accomodate
themselves) simply takes the cost of potential future accomodations and
reduces his or her salary budget by that amount, then "spreads the pain".
This amounts to a charge against EVERYONE's wages so your mother doesn't
have to bear the cost either personally or through private insurance (that
she pays for) of her condition.
Bluntly, your mother is a thieving jerk who is stealing wages from everyone
else at the firm for whom she works.
THAT is the bottom line of such "laws."
>If you don't like the law, then fine.
You're right, I don't. They are inherently unjust in that they charge
off the costs of one person's disability (which should be borne by the
disabled person individually) onto a larger group.
>If you don't like corporate
>responsibility or workers' rights, then say so.
This has nothing to do with either corporate responsibility or worker's
"rights". Nobody has the right to bill someone else for their deficiencies,
regardless of what form those deficiencies come in.
It is inherent in the human condition that people have different levels of
ability and limitations. To attempt to charge off your problems on others
is dishonest, immoral, unethical and worthy of treatment as common excrement.
Theft occurs in many forms, and this is just one of them. Participating in
such a scheme makes you no better than a common bank robber. In fact, it
makes you worse, since a bank robber plies his trade in the open and
everyone knows who and what he is instead of being sneaky about it.
If you have a problem of some kind, the problem is yours. Not someone
else's. Your misapprehension is that the fact that someone is disabled in
some fashion suddenly rises to the level of an affirmative duty of OTHERS
to spend money so they can do whatever they want.
That's sophistry and bigotry at the highest level, and its enactment in law
simply means that YOU and EVERYONE ELSE pays so that your momma doesn't have
to pay for her OWN note-taker.
Duncan Brown
Karl Denninger wrote:
<lots of neanderthal-think snipped...>
> Bluntly, your mother is a thieving jerk who is stealing wages from everyone
> else at the firm for whom she works.
>
> THAT is the bottom line of such "laws."
<more knuckle-dragging thought processes snipped>
> Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
> http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective solutions on the Internet
> http://childrens-justice.org Working to protect children's rights
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
...but apparently not the rights of disabled kids!!
Only nice healthy Aryan kids need apply (like the ones his ex-wife
decided needed to be away from his sick influence, I guess...) Kids
with problems (who obviously can't pay for the support of their own
needs) would apparently be put out on an ice floe by Karl...or heck,
maybe he EATS them for all we know. What's best for society and all
that.
Duncan
Clive Jones
wrote:
<snipped for brevity>
>>If it were a DECENT company (yes, I meant that), they WOULD provide a
>>seperate area for smokers. The fact is, from where I'm sitting, Stern
>>value a smokey atmosphere more than their employees. How very, very
>>sad. Actions speak louder than words.
>
>STERN values the authority that owning their private property gives them.
>
>To which I say "three cheers."
>
>I wouldn't work in a smoke-filled atmosphere, but I don't question their
>right to make the decision that their employees may smoke in their
>establishment.
>
>If you know the rules and take the job, you can't whine about it later.
>
It's obvious from this statement that you're not even considering the
factual information that's been supplied (which Duncan has already
pointed out once).
Haven't you got anything better to do than troll RGP?
I could think of a few things you could do...
Clive
(Who really shouldn't be bothering.)
Chris Foote
are disabled sit and rot away because they don't have the money
to help themselves? Your view is one side of the story - think
about if you were disabled and had a problem hearing or
breathing or whatever the case may be. Was it YOUR choice that
you had these disabilities? Probably not. You feel, however,
that people with these disabilities are just thieves and
scumbags who just want to wean away money from we, the
taxpayers. That might be the case for a small minority of
people, but I'll be damned if thats the case for the majority
of 'em. How are they supposed to get the monies required
to 'fix' their situation if they can't get their foot in the
door to begin with?
And on another note, whether you feel Jon is a whiner or not,
this isn't good PR for Stern, because the majority of the
population DOES NOT smoke, and Stern might lose even more
employees to this 'rule'. While you might not give a damn, you
won't be buying anymore pinball games and our beloved little
hobby will fade away. What ever happened to employee loyalty? If
you have a good employee, you try to accomodate them as much as
possible. Because of ones' habits, they lose a valuable member
of their community. Yes Karl, that's their choice. It was an
easy fix, but Gary Stern didn't want to step outside to puff on
his cigar - instead, he'd rather infect everyone else. Oh well,
you won't catch me working there (and buying any of their games!)
gwoodcock
>So Karl, what is your answer here? Do you suggest that those who
>are disabled sit and rot away because they don't have the money
>to help themselves?
If they don't have the ability, motivation, ingenuity or
resources, YES! In general, the more disabled a person is, the
more willing people are to help out with VOLUNTARY CHARITY.
Every disabled person had a mother and a father at some time
and every mentally disabled person has a guardian. THOSE are
the people who should be paying for the costs of care of the
disabled person.
>Your view is one side of the story - think
>about if you were disabled and had a problem hearing or
>breathing or whatever the case may be.
That's called "situational ethics". Stealing cannot be
justified no matter what "good uses" you put the plunder to. I
would no more condone the government stealing on my behalf than
I would going out and robbing a bank myself. ADA and in fact
MOST laws steal from the rich and give to the incapable or under
productive (whether they be disabled, lazy, idiots, criminals or
whatever). That is wrong. PERIOD. And it doesn't matter if
the plunder is ending up in my bank account or somebody else's.
>Was it YOUR choice that
>you had these disabilities? Probably not.
What difference does that make? It wasn't MY fault either or my
city's or my state's or my nation's fault. We should not be
FORCED to bear the costs, regardless of the dire need.
>You feel, however,
>that people with these disabilities are just thieves and
>scumbags who just want to wean away money from we, the
>taxpayers.
The proponents of ADA certainly are and so is GHWB for signing
it into law.
>That might be the case for a small minority of
>people, but I'll be damned if thats the case for the majority
>of 'em. How are they supposed to get the monies required
>to 'fix' their situation if they can't get their foot in the
>door to begin with?
Private charity. Private insurance. Family. Friends. Church
family. You'd be surprised how many friends you can make if you
are a nice person in need. Even nasty people can fairly simply
locate charitable people willing to help out desperate people in
dire situations. Charity isn't charity if it is forced out of
the barrel of a (government) gun. Stealing is wrong and
taxation is stealing and receiving government money is STEALING.
>And on another note, whether you feel Jon is a whiner or not,
>this isn't good PR for Stern, because the majority of the
>population DOES NOT smoke, and Stern might lose even more
>employees to this 'rule'. While you might not give a damn, you
>won't be buying anymore pinball games and our beloved little
>hobby will fade away. What ever happened to employee loyalty? If
>you have a good employee, you try to accomodate them as much as
>possible. Because of ones' habits, they lose a valuable member
>of their community. Yes Karl, that's their choice. It was an
>easy fix, but Gary Stern didn't want to step outside to puff on
>his cigar - instead, he'd rather infect everyone else. Oh well,
>you won't catch me working there (and buying any of their
games!)
At least you have this part right. It was a poor decision on
Stern's part but don't go trying to say that it was illegal,
immoral or anything but inept. Karl is 100% right about this
whole situation even if his presentation and attitude are poor.
Never forget that government is a neccessary evil but evil
nonetheless. Taxes are stealing and subsidies of all kinds are
nothing more than the spoils of war against the citizens.
THANX...Gregg wood...@fastlane.net http://www.fastlane.net/~woodcock
*CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)*
BOYCOTT KEEN.COM for Remarq .sig SPAMMING! Complain to ads...@remarq.com
Starwriter
attitude like that wouldn't get you past the job interview. I can't
imagine the hell it must have been for people working under you when you
were in management. I wouldn't take a job doing wine tasting, barbecue R
& D, and sunscreen analysis in Hawaii, if I had to work under you.
Let me get this straight, the property owner(or management) makes the
rules, with no concern for the results to their employees. If they don't
like it, they can walk? Everyone must pull their own weight? Equal pay
for an equal days work? Yeah, this world should only consist of
"perfect" people. No "perfect" person should have to bear the cost of
someone who can not physically pull their own weight? Wake up dude!!!
You are a Dork.
Well, in case you hadn't noticed, there are some VERY successful
companies that will do ANYTHING for their employees.
FREE game room with late model pins, vids, pool table, foosball, and
ping pong
Fully equipped weight lifting room with showers
Jazercise room with an instructor
All the FREE pop and coffee you can drink
FREE cab ride to work if your car won't start, you miss the carpool,
etc.
24 HOUR access to above amenities
Dave Stambaugh
companies to adopt those liberal employee-friendly policies".
"Starwriter" <NOS...@ME.COM> wrote in message
news:395A40BE...@ME.COM...
gwoodcock
>Well, Karl's response will be "That's their choice. Nobody
FORCED the
>companies to adopt those liberal employee-friendly policies".
And he'd be exactly right and that is the way FREE societies and
FREE markets are supposed to work. Nobody is going to want to
work for a company that doesn't treat its employees very well
and many people won't want to buy from them, either.
cody
>archaic.
>
>Thanks much for playing Cody, your ticket to Cuba is waiting.
>
Once again Karl, you prove that not only are you an idiot, but
apparently illiterate also. You must have that special kind of
dyslexia that only allows you to read every other word, and not
what is actually printed.
Read slowly so you can follow:
It...is...archaic...to...force...an...employee...to...breathe...p
oisons...while...doing...their...job. I hope that wasn't too
quick for you.
Free ticket to Cuba, huh? How many times did you have
to 'service' Fidel for that? Anyway, I'd rather live in Cuba
than on your block.
If you see Kay, why owe you.
Warmest regards,
Cody
Are you a completely brainless moron given to bouts of depression and
uncontrollable fits of rectal spasms? If so, and you've