BALLY is a Third-Party trademark that WAYNE doesn't want on our playfields
Classic Playfield Reproductions
news:1130595554.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> That's great news, now tell all the purchasers how you can't put Bally
> on the playfields!
>
> Don't flame me, it's nothing that I have done...
>
> You need 3rd party permission to use the Bally Trademark?
Since Wayne wants to open up this can of worms, I have no problem commenting
on it in a professional manner. I have a feeling that he's just put another
nail in his coffin, but so be it. If he wants to troll for us to comment on
this one, then I will certainly let everybody know what this means....
PINBALL COMMUNITY AT LARGE, PLEASE BE ADVISED:
In protecting his rights, Wayne Gillard of The Pinball Factory made
complaints to WMS Gaming (who still have ties with Bally Gaming), that
Classic Playfield Reproductions were calling our Centaur reproduction
playfield a "Bally Centaur reproduction playfield" and that the Bally
trademark was never given permission to be used in correlation with the
reproduction of this part (the playfield). This urging by Wayne made WMS
basically say to us that no use of the word "Bally" could be associated with
Centaur or its advertising. It can also not appear on the playfield.
Wayne also was upset by the Ebay auctions we were running for IPB. Since
IPB wasn't very experienced in running Ebay auctions, CPR assisted them by
using our new ID. This was extremely successful, and IPB got 12 new
international preorders in about 1 week. Wayne cried to WMS that CPR was
selling playfields (regardless of the 10 disclaimers in the auction) and
that we were taking preorders and money. The truth was, CPR has no list of
preorders (only IPB keeps a file), and CPR has no deposit money (IPB keeps
all of the money and does all sales).
CONCLUSION:
So folks, as much as this seems ridiculous, to remedy these alleged problems
and satisfy WMS (and Mr. Gillard), we removed the word "Bally" from any
reference to the repro playfield. It can only be used in common language.
ie. "fair use" We also moved the auctions to IPB's Ebay ID, removed our
CPR logo, and taught IPB how to manage the auctions. As for "Bally" on the
playfield, it never really appeared on the playfield in the first place.
It's scrawn in handwritten letters down under the skirt next to the large
"Centaur" title. We will make sure that doesn't print to the playfields.
So Wayne, you win...... or do you... ???
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.accesswave.ca/~cprepro
nomad
be created even though one so called saviour hasn't done jack crap
except try and stop all these efforts.
Hell, I may even buy one of these pf even though I don't have the game
just to support their work! Godd job guys getting around the BS and
actually producing something!
nomad
fir...@flashmail.com
Classic Playfield Reproductions wrote:
<snip>
> CONCLUSION:
> So folks, as much as this seems ridiculous, to remedy these alleged problems
> and satisfy WMS (and Mr. Gillard), we removed the word "Bally" from any
> reference to the repro playfield. It can only be used in common language.
> ie. "fair use" We also moved the auctions to IPB's Ebay ID, removed our
> CPR logo, and taught IPB how to manage the auctions. As for "Bally" on the
> playfield, it never really appeared on the playfield in the first place.
> It's scrawn in handwritten letters down under the skirt next to the large
> "Centaur" title. We will make sure that doesn't print to the playfields.
>
> So Wayne, you win...... or do you... ???
Frankly, I'm baffled by Wayne's behavior. What can he possibly hope to
gain from these immature attempts at sabotage? Generally, getting a
significant portion of your potential customer base angry at you is not
good business practice, and that is what Wayne has done. This is why I
expect him to go out of business. Real businessmen don't spend 90% of
their time flaming people on Usenet. How on earth did he get a bank to
lend him $900k for the license in the first place, with his attitude?
Fortunately, it is likely that he will be unable to make the payments -
after all, you can't pay the bills with C&D letters - and then,
hopefully, the rights will be auctioned off to someone who is willing
to license them on a more reasonable and less confrontational basis.
Bob
p.s. seems like the croc-man is basically exersising his rights, seems like the ipb folks have been doing similar stuff, so as long as you selling legit stuff, there wouldnt be issues?
bob
"Classic Playfield Reproductions" <cpr...@accesswave.com> wrote:
>
Cayle George
ldnayman
fir...@flashmail.com wrote:
>
> Frankly, I'm baffled by Wayne's behavior. What can he possibly hope to
> gain from these immature attempts at sabotage? Generally, getting a
> significant portion of your potential customer base angry at you is not
> good business practice, and that is what Wayne has done. This is why I
> expect him to go out of business.
Well you may be right but I sincerely doubt it. Wayne made ONE bullshit
post about how he is gearing up for a FH playfield run, and the thread
was nothing but longtime RGPers kissing his ass. You didn't catch that?
He may enjoy big douchebag status right now, but people will be dying
to send him money if he ever actually produces the stuff people want.
We'll see how long this "boycott" lasts- it's easy for people to
boycott him when he has nothing for sale but stale leftovers.
Cayle George
Classic Playfield Reproductions
"Bob" <bo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130627...@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> that's all well and good, but i was interested in purchasing a playfield
but are confused. this pre-order stuff in ebay ? looking didnt' ever do that
before so looking around (not easy to find) it says pre-order posting only
can be done if the product ships in 30 days - so the CENTAUR playfield is
shipping in 30 days? if so, you should state this then I would buy one!!! if
not, could be another 'give me the money' and see no product ...
It's actually quite simple. We already have gone over this with Ebay on the
telephone. It's OK.
The auctions are for a membership. Like a membership to a club. The
auctions are not for a preorder. The auctions are not for a playfield.
The word "preorder" is nowhere in the auction.
You win a membership for $50, and being a member of that group gets you the
ability to be guaranteed a playfield is reserved for you when they are
complete. Your membership also gives you a $50 discount on the purchase of
the playfield. A perk of being a member.
The four auctions listed yesterday are already bought. I think people
understand how it works. Hope this helps.
EBAY ID: illinoispinball
The Ebay route is easy, but if you feel more comfortable simply email
k...@illinoispinball.com and arrange an actual preorder by sending a deposit.
Bally Tim
He said in the related post that he had NOTHING to do with the Bally
name issue on the playfields. What a frickin' joke. We all KNEW he did.
Bob
WHY DO YOU PLAYFIELD GUYS HAVE TO MAKE THIS SO STUPID!!!
Bally Tim
it at all. And doing it through ePay was a way to reach a larger
market.
And NO ONE is going to lose their money. I had been corresponding with
Kim personally and she stated if the project didn't go through, the
deposits would be refunded. I CERTAINLY can live with a $50 deposit on
an AWESOME playfield.
jackpot
isnt it fellas? Personally im sick of seeing RPG getting flooded with
hate and jelousy.
Neil.
milt
WTF? Why are you defending Wayne? What stake do you have in this? Seems
pretty strange to me.
jackpot
adding fuel to the fire or hurling personal attacks around.
Neil.
Bally Tim
greatw...@hotmail.com
all the money upfront. Also the Ebay route opens up more people, even
though membership thing seems crazy. So give this route a try the boys
are working hard on this.
Loosey
Dave
Chris Evans
Whereas this post of yours was a reasoned and insightful discourse on
the relative merits of Wayne's business practices and was not itself
a mere 'bashing' of those you see as being full of 'hate' and 'jelousy',
yes?
milt
I'm not sure what we are to be jealous of, exactly, not of Wayne's
business sense. He has about as much business sense as my sister's b/f
that managed to drive a gaming store out of business in less then 5
months. Wayne probably has the same delusion that its "really cool" to
have your own business and he knows EXACTLY what he is doing and has all
these big plans, but in truth, he don't know squat and will quickly find
himself in over his head.
Did someone mention a figure of 900k to license the WMS/Bally stuff? If
only I had that kind of money... I have more business sense in my left
pinky then what Wayne has demonstrated up till now.
Prove all of us wrong Wayne, PLEASE DO IT! I would love nothing more
then to be proven wrong and you actually do have all these plans going
and are about to flood the market with all these parts you promise.
As my grandfather used to say...
"Shit or get off the pot"
c...@provide.net
Go to Williams web site, and go to their financial
statements. It's all there in black and white.
Wayne paid $400k for the rights (or was it $500k,
i'll have to check again). Basically about $100k
per year. And he's paying on time. That is, he's
paying in $100k increments. Again it's in WMS'
web site financial statements.
The rumor has it Wayne didn't put up all the money
anyway. The AU government financed (at least some
of it), to produce product in AU for export.
That's a rumor though, and it probably can't be
confirmed. But the price Wayne paid for the
Bally assets is right there on the WMSgaming
web site. That's a fur sure.
Funky Pinaholic
> blah blah blah
>
> WHY DO YOU PLAYFIELD GUYS HAVE TO MAKE THIS SO STUPID!!!
>
They basically had to do many of these things this way because of the
way they have to work with the licensees.
What is so "stupid" about this? Seems pretty easy to understand to me.
If it is to difficult for you, you might just want to play pinball
machines and not buy or restore them.
milt
> Wayne DID NOT pay $900k for the Bally rights.
> Go to Williams web site, and go to their financial
> statements. It's all there in black and white.
> Wayne paid $400k for the rights (or was it $500k,
> i'll have to check again). Basically about $100k
> per year. And he's paying on time. That is, he's
> paying in $100k increments. Again it's in WMS'
> web site financial statements.
>
> The rumor has it Wayne didn't put up all the money
> anyway. The AU government financed (at least some
> of it), to produce product in AU for export.
> That's a rumor though, and it probably can't be
> confirmed. But the price Wayne paid for the
> Bally assets is right there on the WMSgaming
> web site. That's a fur sure.
>
Thanks for the correction, I wasn't aware this was on a website anywhere
to look at and I saw someone say 900k in a post was the first time there
was any mention of any dollar amount. Wow, the AU govt. are getting
shafted too if that is accurate as I doubt he is exporting any parts he
wasn't previous to the whole shebang.
Pint...@gmail.com
that are in a different field of expertise. I asked them some
theoritcal questions about all this and this is what they told me.
They are aware of how the economics work down there and apparently they
believe Wayne is not as dumb as we think. They believe this is some
kind of tax scheme. They believe he won't do anything until the last
tax schedule. That way he loses money for 80% of the venture.
I personally don't see how this would work. But I've seen stranger
things. If I heard correctly this is a five year license. So for 4+
years he isn't going to do anything but bitch.
Make sense to anyone else?
Mario
Pinthetic
milt
So, in other words, he's using the whole thing as some elaborate tax
write-off? ake it seem like a massive failure, write off the losses,
then put out a pinball machine or a boatload of parts that last year and
then close up shop?
Isn't THAT just lovely?
mik...@omuonline.net
loan spend up the money buying and fixin' up the place, pack the halls
with people everyniote, pocket 1/2 or more of the take in and then show
a loss on paper, go bankrupt, and then turn right back around and
reopen another club a year later. It has happened here at least 5 times
in 10 years by the same man. I know theres no way the last one he had
wasnt profitable. That place was packed EVERYNITE. Well he doesnt do it
anymore, he was shot a few years ago in a parking lot. Maybe one of his
backers or partners got ripped off a little much? BTW They never found
the shooter anyways.
Manic
it's best to believe in the good of people so *maybe* he
is simply not great at communications, feels personally
attacked (and they have been ball-scorching) and
indeed does have some plans and goals.
Unfortunately his forum on his site pretty much
went dead after the 12th so nobody knows what's
up these days.
I just can't figure the guy out as it sure seems
like odd behavior. I'd sure like to see him make
everybody here eat crow - for the sake of the
hobby in general. Let's all hope it happens.
<mik...@omuonline.net> wrote in message
news:1130656974....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
fir...@flashmail.com
c...@provide.net wrote:
> Wayne DID NOT pay $900k for the Bally rights.
> Go to Williams web site, and go to their financial
> statements. It's all there in black and white.
> Wayne paid $400k for the rights (or was it $500k,
> i'll have to check again). Basically about $100k
> per year. And he's paying on time. That is, he's
> paying in $100k increments. Again it's in WMS'
> web site financial statements.
Unless he's independently wealthy, or unless his MPA business (apart
from the WMS/BLY rights) is so profitable that he can cross-subsidize,
my prediction is that he will be unable to make these payments and will
therefore lose the rights as a result (presumably they were the
collateral for the loan, just as the house is the collateral on a home
mortgage). Think about it. He can't conceivably have made a profit on
the rights at this point. In fact, he is deeper in the hole than the
figures above indicate. If he has made any efforts to actually produce
anything, then he will have to pay money up front, either to buy the
tooling or to have someone else tool up for his parts production.
Frankly, I think even the savviest businessman would have a hard time
making money off the rights at the price paid. Replacement parts for
WMS/BLY machines are just not that big of a business. Gene Cunningham,
if I'm not mistaken, is wealthy enough that he can pump money into a
money-losing business that is essentially his hobby. (Of course, he
also gets a tax write-off.) Unless Wayne is also wealthy, I foresee
severe difficulties with his business model (if it should even be
dignified with that term).
Wayne's proposed Croc Hunter pin will never see production unless he is
willing to pump well over a million dollars into that speculative
venture (and if that does happen, he will never turn a profit on it).
Think about it: he has to pay for the rights, he has to tool up to
produce every single part in a WPC pin (that means cabinets,
playfields, inserts, screened plastics, bumper assemblies, flipper
assemblies, etc.) Oh, don't forget the WPC-95 boards. PCBs can probably
be produced easily enough if he has the original masks, but what about
the WPC ASIC? That's a custom chip. More tooling fees to a chip fab.
And that's just the beginning. Who designs the playfield layout? Who
does the art? Who does the programming? That last one is a bitch -
there really aren't that many pinball programmers, and your average
C#/Java programmer is hardly going to pick that up overnight, since it
is such a different paradigm.
Coin-Op Cauldron (Clive)
> c...@provide.net wrote:
>
Oh, don't forget the WPC-95 boards. PCBs can probably
> be produced easily enough if he has the original masks, but what about
> the WPC ASIC? That's a custom chip. More tooling fees to a chip fab.
I'm pretty sure the ASIC design and fabrication would have been sub'd
out to a third party contractor by Williams. I believe the masks and
code are all still around.
Clive
---
Board repairs, EPROMs, servicing...
The Coin-Op Cauldron
103 Armistead Lane
Easley, SC 29642
(864)238-1707
http://www.coinopcauldron.com
milt
> I just can't figure the guy out as it sure seems
> like odd behavior. I'd sure like to see him make
> everybody here eat crow - for the sake of the
> hobby in general. Let's all hope it happens.
>
Dr. Dave
your mouth off and you may realize they aren't the "stupid" ones
here....
DR
Dr. Dave
Me too Neil. Wayne should knock it off already...
DR