TECH: TOTAN Ramp Magnet

[Michael Belofsky]

Hi! I was given a lot of help a few weeks ago while working on the TOTAN.
Thanks Martin!

I sent the A/V and driver board to Coin Op Cauldron. The sound board is
fixed. There was a bad trace. The driver board had many additional problems
I did not fix.

I played the game. The ball went through the magnet and the F108 solenoid
fuse blew. I replaced the fuse.

I played some more and the F104 4amp fuse for the ramp magnet blew. The good
thing is the ramp diverter, which uses the ramp magnet circuit as a tieback
circuit, no longer locks engaged and fries the solenoid.

I turned off the game and replaced the fuse.
The very first time the ball went through the magnet the fuse blew.

The manual says this is a 4amp fuse. Can anyone check their machine? Could
it be a slow blow fuse by any chance?

The magnet is new and is reading 4.4 Ohms.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Michael

[Cayle George]

I believe almost all the fuses in TOTAN should be slow blow. And I am
99% certain all three magnets in totan Use slow blow (the genie magnet
for sure).

Go in to solenoid test, and test the ramp magnet. hit the start button
during this test and it should tell you the fuse type and if it is slo
blow.

-cAyle

[martin]

If you put a slow blow fuse in there, you run the risk of blowing a
transistor.

Start off by disconnecting the magnet, see if the fuse still blows.

If I remember right, F104 feeds the magnet after F108 blows. So that is
why F104 blew.

Also, check for voltage on BOTH pins of the magnet connector. If you
find 70V on both sides, then something else is up - that would explain
blown fuses.

http://iobium.com/Tech%20Templates/totan-tech.pdf

[Michael Belofsky]

Martin:
the tech page you referenced has Solenoid 8 Ramp Magnet Coil as 20-10197.

The manual I downloaded from flipperspill.com has sol 8 Ramp Magnet Coil as
20-10179.

Which one is correct?

Can the wrong magnet be causing the fuse to blow? What is the difference
between a 20-10197 and 20-10179 magnet?

Thanks
Michael

"martin" <martin....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140747929.9...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

[Michael Belofsky]

I was looking at the magnets. 20-10179 has a hole large enough for the ball
to pass through.

20-10197 has a smaller hole and a ball cannot pass through.

Is this the difference and then it would have to be a 20-10179 which is what
is in the machine?

I will check the voltages, etc tonight after work and meetings.

Do I test the 70 volts in solenoid test when the magnet is being engaged or
anytime that the game is on?

Thanks
Michael
"Michael Belofsky" <mbel...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:4MWdndotf93...@adelphia.com...

[Michael Belofsky]

Now I will really be late for work.
I went into solenoid test. Went to solenoid 8. Ramp Magnet. Pressed the
start button. The screen says that the fuse F104 takes a 2.5 amp SB.

The charts in the manual and in the tech page Martin sent (and I assume the
page at the bottom of the machine that I did not open) say that F104 is a
4amp fuse.

Which do I believe?

Thanks
Michael
"Michael Belofsky" <mbel...@adelphia.net> wrote in message

news:SeKdnZ6qRMq...@adelphia.com...

[twoplays.25]

I'd go with SB.

[RonKZ650]

It's a 4A slow blow. The magnets 20-10197 and 179 do the same thing
except one has a larger hole. I doubt the wrong one could be even
mounted up in the game, but if it was it wouldn't blow fuses unless
it's shorting against an adjacent part. Check your voltage with the
game on and the plug unplugged from the magnet. One wire should have
your 50v-70vdc on it, the other zero. If the one that should have zero
has any volts on it, somethings wrong with the wiring to it or the
power driver board feedback diode is shorted or reversed. If this
checks ok, plug the magnet in. Now you should have 70vdc on both wires
and when you go into magnet test you can place a voltmeter on the wire
that had zero volts previously and it should toggle between 70 and zero
volts as the game turns on the magnet. You need a decent meter to see
the voltage toggle.

[martin]

The weird thing is that it still seems to work and yet it blows the
fuse. That would point away from a shorted diode, which is otherwise a
great explanation. Maybe the diode is not quite a full short?

Anyhow, do the voltage test before running the magnet with a slow blow
fuse.

[Cayle George]

A fast blow fuse on my totan genie magnet will blow, where a SB will
not.

[martin]

Then the fuse value is underrated. There's no inrush current on a
magnet, so a slow blow fuse is completely the wrong thing to use.

[Michael Belofsky]

Martin:
I am sorry I don't understand what you are saying.

The manual and the tech paper you gave me say fuse f104 is a 4amp fast
acting fuse.

In solenoid test when I hit the start button it says that fuse f104 should
be a 2.5 SB.

Others are telling me that the fuse should be a slow blow.

what would work? The 4amp fast acting continues to blow?

Thanks
Michael

"martin" <martin....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1140817558.2...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...

[martin]

1) It is important to do that voltage test that Ron detailed.

2) These papers often give different(and incorrect) fuse values. I am
liking the 2.5A value from the screen.

3) I might try a nightlight bulb in series with the magnet, or an
ammeter in series with the fuse. If there is not some kind of short,
then the magnet is coming on for too long and an ammeter or light would
help there.

4) It is possible that the design as implemented does require a 4.5A
slow blow fuse (a higher rated fast blow would be better). But it just
feels unlikely, the other tests need to be done first.

Williams used slow blow fuses. But that is incorrect for protecting
electronics - although it makes sense for EMs. The WPC designs are
overall impressively robust, but these fuses are just wrong for the
application. So I use fast blow fuses, because I prefer to replace
fuses over transistors.

[martin]

[Michael Belofsky]

I tested the voltage for the ramp magnet. The red wire tests at 74 volts.
The other wire is 0. So is this running the voltage test in #1 below? I
tried testing the voltage with the yellow thingy on the door switch keeping
the interlock engaged and testing the voltage in test mode. It still showed
74 on the red wire and 0 on the other. Anything else to test.

I tried a 2 amp SB fuse. It blew immediately. (The manual says 2.5 amp SB
but Radio Shack only had 2amp sb. I bought 3.15 Amp sb fuses but am afraid
to try them and blow the transistor. Do you think it is safe?

I played the game with a 4amp fast blow fuse and the magnet disconnected and
the game worked well for our 1/2 an hour. The fuse did not blow. Therefore,
this confirms, I assume, that the problem is with the magnet.

I read previous post that suggest putting a 4amp sb or even a 5 amp sb in
F104. The previous posts stated that this did solve the problem. I am still
afraid to try this.

I did not buy an ammeter. How do I test this?

#4 below you state using a 4.5 amp slow blow. Did you actually mean that.

Any other suggestions? This is frustrating and so close to working.

Thanks
Michael

"martin" <martin....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1140841478.9...@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

[Michael Belofsky]

Can someone please check if the power wire (Red/Orange) that goes to the
ramp magnet and to J133-1 also goes to J111-2 as a tie back circuit for the
ramp diverter?

I get continuity between these three positions. How could I test for a
ground? The wire looks good....

Thanks
Michael

"Michael Belofsky" <mbel...@adelphia.net> wrote in message

news:GYadnc-taOh...@adelphia.com...

[martin]

If you are seeing 0V on that other pin, then we are ready to try a
4.5A slow blow.

[Michael Belofsky]

I put a 4amp slow blow fuse in and have been playing for the past 1/2 hour.
It works. I will order some 4.5 amp slow blow fuses.

I will keep testing this. Thanks for the assistance.

One question: Once during the game the magnet stayed on longer than I have
ever seen it do. Was starting to get concerned but it finally pushed the
magnet through and the fuse and magnet continued to work.

Thanks
Michael

"martin" <martin....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1140920734.4...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...