Molex vs IDC - trade-offs?
Dan Q very much
board IDC connectors.
And the best way is to use Molex crimp-on pin connectors.
But what about the drawbacks?
Taking out the board to replace the male connector means disconnecting
and reconnecting all those other IDC connectors, reducing their
remaining short 25-cycle life and it seems asking for trouble.
Once the board and the wires are changed over to Molex connectors, you
are no longer able to swap the board with another, during
troubleshooting or board replacement, without doing it to the new
board, unless it just happens to already have that connector changed
out the same way.
I ordered a bunch of Molex pins, headers and connector shells to fix
J101 on my Whitewater (burnt input to the 5v circuit) and the GI on my
Funhouse, but I'm second guessing myself now, wondering whether it'd
be overkill for home use. Not having the proper $95 crimper enters
into it as well.
Thoughts? I'm sure you guys who are old hats at this can set me
straight!
John Wart, jr
by Molex, if the connector is properly terminated and keyed, you can switch
boards from game to game just fine. The Panduit .156 headers will accept a
molex .156 housing with regular or trifurcon pins, or vice versa.
Regarding drawbacks, if you don't replace both halves of the connector, the
connector *will* fail again. The resistance is higher, which makes more
heat, which causes the connectors to burn up again. You can rebuild the
female connector over and over, and the male connector will get to the point
where it gets so hot, it desolders itself from the board.
Do you want to repair the problem once, or bandaid it regularly?
"Dan Q very much" <dqu...@new.rr.com> wrote in message
news:cbf70f86-0faf-49ff...@o16g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
Chris Hibler
DanQ,
You're overthinking this.
Replacing the female side of J101 with crimp-on pins and a molex
connector, and the male header pins with friction lock headers won't
make that board game specific.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
Dan Q very much
is highly significant!
Molex it is! Thanks!
Now, am I going to have any luck crimping those pins without having
the $95 crimper?
John Wart, jr
easier.
I've heard a lot of good about the $28 crimpers from Pinrestore though..
http://pinrestore.com/Tools.html
The cheaper crimpers that GPE sells will do the job fine though, and if
you're only gonna rebuild a few connectors, they will suffice. If you used
them daily, you'd want the $95 ones :)
BTW, the $95 ones can often be found on eBay used for reasonable prices..
Before Ed started selling them for $95 ($95 is a damn good deal for new
ones!), I got all 4 sets used in WMS pins off eBay one at a time and spent
about $100-125 total IIRC. But, that requires some patience, and if you have
an immediate need...
"Dan Q very much" <dqu...@new.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ddf0221e-c75d-4c5c...@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...
GPE
You mean discrete crimp versus IDC, I assume...
This is actually a Ford versus Chevy type question.
From an old post about 4 years ago:
IDC's were created to reduce assembly time - not to increase reliability.
I saw elsewhere that the IDC's had a higher current rating than individual
crimp contacts. I wondered how the IDC connectors could possibly handle
more current than the crimp on connectors.
After a lengthy conversation with Molex tech support and looking at specs,
the answer is - for the most part, they can't. Tech support guy referred to
it as mainly a "smoke and mirrors" advertising gimmick. The only real
advantage to IDC's is they are fast to assemble - lowing assembly costs.
The standard Panduit IDC's are rated 8 amps and the Molex are rated 7 amps
(using Trifurcon or non-Trifurcon contacts).
Sure, it looks better for the Panduit's - but looking a little deeper.
The standard Panduit IDC's (I'll get to their high current version later)
are rated 8 amps using 18AWG wire. ok.
HOWEVER, they are only rated at this current at 20 degrees C.
At 25 degrees C (room temperature) - they are rated approx 7.5 amps.
huh?!?!
And it drops rapidly from there.
(I have yet to see a pin that doesn't increase in temperature above room
temp internally)
At 60 degrees C (hot) - they are rated only 4.5 amps.
And at 75 degrees C (hotter) - they are rated less than 4 amps.
Why does it drop off so quickly? As it turns out, these contacts make
better contact to header connection than the Molex contacts and have a
slightly higher mass - hence the 8 amp rating. But the contact to wire
connection is where the problem is. The IDC contact to wire connection is
four small surface area positions and these leave little room for thermal
expansion. The contact to pin connection is only slightly affected by
thermal expansion as these two are not hard-jointed together and are meant
to flex.
Now, looking at the Molex crimp on contacts & shells - these are rated at 7
amps also using 18AWG wire. 1 amp less but still ok.
But the discrete wire connectors have this 7 amp rating all the way up to 75
degrees C.
The Molex connectors don't derate until you hit 75 degrees C.
These do not have the contact to wire thermal expansion problem that the IDC
contacts have.
This is where the big difference is. once you get above 20 degrees C (68
degrees F) - the current rating of the Panduit part drops. The Molex
maintains its current rating until 75 degrees C. After that temperature,
the Molex and Panduit track identically for current ratings - and both are
quite low.
Now - for the high power Panduit. This really is a decent part. Has a 12.5
Amp rating all the way to 80 degrees C before it drops off. The standard
trifurcon or non-trifurcon contacts can't compete with this. I'm not sure
how they handle the thermal expansion problem as they don't cover this in
their technical data. Problem with these is they are quite difficult to
find. The vast majority of vendors that sell the IDC connectors only have
the standard connectors and slim pickings for the high current rated ones.
And, these still suffer from a problem I see more often than burnt
connectors - loose wires pulled from IDC plugs. For this reason alone, I
don't use IDC. But, to each his own....
And, now, a little note about trifurcon contacts. These gain you *zero*
when it comes to current handling capability. But - what it does get you is
a contact that makes superior contact when it comes to vibration (which we
all know is quite prevalent in pins). It is for this reason that use of
trifurcon contacts are desired over flat contacts.
------------------------------
Bottom line --
IDC's were made to assemble fast but aren't known for reliability.
Discrete crimp connectors take time to assemble but are more reliable.
IDC plugs have wires that are far easier to pull the wires out from (many
people pull on wires rather than plugs).
You need a crimper for discrete contacts... you need an insertion tool for
IDC's.
Crimper ranges from $15 to $120 depending on which one you get and where you
get it.
Metal IDC insertion tools start at something like $25. Can get AMP plastic
ones cheaper but they don't last as long (depends on how many you really
want to do). And, you need to make sure you purchase the proper wire sized
IDC conector... no different than making sure you purchase the proper sized
discrete crimp contact.
Ed
GPE
"John Wart, jr" <johnw...@johnwartjr.com> wrote in message
news:hkavbb$1r9$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> The good crimper makes it easier, just like the right tool makes any job
> easier.
>
> I've heard a lot of good about the $28 crimpers from Pinrestore though..
>
> http://pinrestore.com/Tools.html
>
> The cheaper crimpers that GPE sells will do the job fine though, and if
> you're only gonna rebuild a few connectors, they will suffice. If you used
> them daily, you'd want the $95 ones :)
>
> BTW, the $95 ones can often be found on eBay used for reasonable prices..
>
> Before Ed started selling them for $95 ($95 is a damn good deal for new
> ones!), I got all 4 sets used in WMS pins off eBay one at a time and spent
> about $100-125 total IIRC. But, that requires some patience, and if you
> have an immediate need...
Yep... I got all four sizes of the expensive crimpers off ebay as well... as
low as $10 per pair.
Just gotta look carefully at the pictures to make sure the locators are
present and try to determine if they have broken springs, etc.
At $10 per pair, you can replace springs, etc and still be way ahead.
Ed
reflux
When I first went out on my own the first tool I bought for my toolbox
(they were already pretty stocked) was a proper crimper and pin pusher
(always had works before that). I had to get the crimper specially
from the u.s. It was $95 aussie bucks almost 20 years ago. One of the
best decisions I ever made. I've been through 10k of both male and
female. It still looks new. Just don't leave it in someones machine or
lend it :)
Ian Wilkinson
Who would have thought connectors were such complex beasts? No wonder so
many problems we see in pinballs stem from bad connectors. It also helps to
explain why some connector problems are so hard to track down, as both
temperature and vibration are affecting performance.
cheers
Ian
"GPE" <GPE_N...@Cox.net> wrote in message
news:ql7an.26046$p66....@newsfe09.iad...
c...@provide.net
> The good crimper makes it easier, just like the right tool makes any job
> easier.
>
> I've heard a lot of good about the $28 crimpers from Pinrestore though..
>
> http://pinrestore.com/Tools.html
>
> The cheaper crimpers that GPE sells will do the job fine though, and if
> you're only gonna rebuild a few connectors, they will suffice. If you used
> them daily, you'd want the $95 ones :)
>
> BTW, the $95 ones can often be found on eBay used for reasonable prices..
>
> Before Ed started selling them for $95 ($95 is a damn good deal for new
> ones!), I got all 4 sets used in WMS pins off eBay one at a time and spent
> about $100-125 total IIRC. But, that requires some patience, and if you have
> an immediate need...
>
>
> > Oh, the different connectors play nice together when necessary. This
> > is highly significant!
>
> > Molex it is! Thanks!
>
> > Now, am I going to have any luck crimping those pins without having
> > the $95 crimper?
I used the Waldom $15 crimper from Ed at GPE,
and i use it EVERY DAY. I have the more
expensive crimpers like the PinRestore one
and the $90 molex ratchet style. Frankly
i like the $15 crimper better. Maybe it's
what i'm used to? I don't know, but i just
find it offers me better control. I really don't
like the ratchet style at all for this reason.
reflux
> On Feb 2, 11:50 pm, "John Wart, jr" <johnwar...@johnwartjr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The good crimper makes it easier, just like the right tool makes any job
> > easier.
>
> > I've heard a lot of good about the $28 crimpers from Pinrestore though..
>
> >http://pinrestore.com/Tools.html
>
> > The cheaper crimpers that GPE sells will do the job fine though, and if
> > you're only gonna rebuild a few connectors, they will suffice. If you used
> > them daily, you'd want the $95 ones :)
>
> > BTW, the $95 ones can often be found on eBay used for reasonable prices..
>
> > Before Ed started selling them for $95 ($95 is a damn good deal for new
> > ones!), I got all 4 sets used in WMS pins off eBay one at a time and spent
> > about $100-125 total IIRC. But, that requires some patience, and if you have
> > an immediate need...
>
> > "Dan Q very much" <dque...@new.rr.com> wrote in messagenews:ddf0221e-c75d-4c5c...@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Oh, the different connectors play nice together when necessary. This
> > > is highly significant!
>
> > > Molex it is! Thanks!
>
and btw, all my posts disappear, I'm using google with FireFox, the
only way I can see if I posted is if I get flamed (lol)
TheKorn
news:73946617-eb05-4674...@a5g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
>exactly my point. Thanks.
> and btw, all my posts disappear, I'm using google with FireFox, the
> only way I can see if I posted is if I get flamed (lol)
Sounds like you accidentally put *yourself* into your kill file! :)
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
MrBally
Sort of off-topic.... I remember driving into Chicago with my late Dad
for the old Bally (NYSE:BLY) shareholder meetings starting in the
mid-1970's. On the Chicago newsradio station (780 WBBM) Panduit was
running ads for their electrical connectors and wiring accessories for
production line harnesses. Small world, eh?
Also, I remember in the mid 1980's having a Panduit rep call on me
with the entire product line while working for Rockwell. When he was
showing me thier cable tie line, I mentioned how I was very satisfied
with the Thomas & Bettes Ty-Wrap™ line. He asked me to grab a few T &B
t Ty-Wraps which I did from a nearby lab. He then proceded to loop one
together and then put a Panduit one through that loop and looping it
together. Now I had two loops hooked to each other. He had me put a
screwdriver through each loop and then pull on each tool. The T&B Ty-
Wrap would fail every time and the Panduit woiuld always hold. I was
surprised because the T&B one has the steel latch versus Panduit's
plastic one.
I'll never forget that demo.
Mike Schudel
handles kept slipping off evey once in while, I pulled them off and dipped
them in that liquid rubber stuff. But, I maybe rebuild on average 40
connectors a year.
--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI
Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/yxzavc
W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/8ua2n
Gameroom Video: http://tinyurl.com/y8vmz6k
reflux
thanks ill look into that
could be a bit like the whats a name collider, coming back from the
future. lhc i think... I'm not championing it etc but lol, it's worth
a read.
reflux
oops forgot my point, a lhc would make a hell of a multi-ball
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
~ducks running and screaming~
Kwisatz
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've had the same experience. I like the $15 one too.
Steve
Chris Hibler
> "Dan Q very much" <dque...@new.rr.com> wrote in messagenews:cbf70f86-0faf-49ff...@o16g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
Thanks for that reply Ed.
I'm hoping you can explain the benefit of the $95 crimper (Product ID:
3136-CT) over the crimper I'm using now (Product ID: W-HT-1921).
Probably "spring loaded" so the handles spread automatically.
Other than that, what does it do?
Thanks Ed!
John Robertson
Use some Dow Corning #4 Electrical Contact grease on your connectors and
their life will easily double or more. We find it reduces heating and
reduces contact insertion/removal force and thus lets the contacts last
much longer...
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
RonKZ650
>
> - Show quoted text -
Also don't smoke or allow other scumbags that do near your games.
Smoke gets in there and contacts are compromised majorly. I hate
working on smokers equipment because it's all goofed up from the
smoke.
GPE
"Chris Hibler" <ch...@Team-EM.com> wrote in message
news:e7460181-63fe-4c11...@f12g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
I use one of the more expensive crimpers and -love- them.
The main advantages:
1 -- double milled crimping surface - crimps both wire and insulation at
same time
2 -- that fantastic locator! The locator holds the contact for you - no
lining it up and holding onto the contact, the wire and the crimpers at the
same time. Push the button up from the bottom, drop the contact into the
hole and release the button. Contact is automatically held in place at the
correct position. Plus, it has a built in wire stop so you don't have to
worry about pushing the wire in too far.
Only disadvantage -- the cost is high.
This is why you watch ebay. Once in awhile, you can get one dirt cheap.
I just checked ebay now, though... nothing but overpriced ones.
Ed
Chris Hibler
> The main advantages:
> 1 -- double milled crimping surface - crimps both wire and insulation at
> same time
> 2 -- that fantastic locator! The locator holds the contact for you - no
> lining it up and holding onto the contact, the wire and the crimpers at the
> same time. Push the button up from the bottom, drop the contact into the
> hole and release the button. Contact is automatically held in place at the
> correct position. Plus, it has a built in wire stop so you don't have to
> worry about pushing the wire in too far.
>
> Only disadvantage -- the cost is high.
> This is why you watch ebay. Once in awhile, you can get one dirt cheap.
> I just checked ebay now, though... nothing but overpriced ones.
>
> Ed
Thanks Ed. I guess I have to give one of those a try. It sounds like a
time saver.
David Gersic
> I use one of the more expensive crimpers and -love- them.
I have the .156" and .100" expensive ones. Well worth it if you can
snag them on eBay (but you won't be able to now, with everybody
looking for them...).
> The main advantages:
> 1 -- double milled crimping surface - crimps both wire and insulation at
> same time
> 2 -- that fantastic locator! The locator holds the contact for you - no
What I want is a locator on the .100" crimper.
> Only disadvantage -- the cost is high.
> This is why you watch ebay. Once in awhile, you can get one dirt cheap.
> I just checked ebay now, though... nothing but overpriced ones.
Thanks to this thread, they'll be snapped up fast if they show up cheap
over the next few months. If you want one, you'll need to watch and wait
for things to quiet down first.
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| All the world's a stage. Where does the audience sit? |
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |
GPE
"David Gersic" <usenet_s...@zaccaria-pinball.com> wrote in message
news:hkgcf6$huq$1...@usenet.cso.niu.edu...
> On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 22:32:58 -0600, GPE <GPE_N...@Cox.net> wrote:
>> I use one of the more expensive crimpers and -love- them.
>
> I have the .156" and .100" expensive ones. Well worth it if you can
> snag them on eBay (but you won't be able to now, with everybody
> looking for them...).
>
>> The main advantages:
>> 1 -- double milled crimping surface - crimps both wire and insulation at
>> same time
>> 2 -- that fantastic locator! The locator holds the contact for you - no
>
> What I want is a locator on the .100" crimper.
Unfortunately, the only size to not have a locator is the 0.1" crimper.
Last I heard, when Molex asked to have these crimpers made, they neglected
to ask for a locator for this size...so they didn't get one.
I've been swapping emails with the manufacturer this past week - I'll ask
him if they ever considered adding a locator to this size. I'd love to see
a locator on this size as well.
Ebay listings are kinda weird for these crimpers. It always seems to be
feast or famine. Right now there are lots of crimpers listed but many are
not the type that us pinheads typically use. The ones that are of our type
are are all either overpriced...or missing parts. One of them is listed at
$99.99 -- for a pair that is rusty and missing parts. You can buy new ones
at less than that. Once in awhile you can snag a winner on there. Just
gotta be patient and keep watching.
I bought all four sizes off ebay over the years and have also managed to get
some real nice pair of T&B WT145C luggers plus a like new Panduit cable tie
gun. And, a new, still in the box Weller WLC100 for $15 (I have no idea as
to why I bought that one). Sometimes you get lucky.
Most useless thing I bought on ebay -- new, in box Weller solder smoke fume
extractors. They make lots and lots of noise... and that's about all they
do.
Ed
David Gersic
> Unfortunately, the only size to not have a locator is the 0.1" crimper.
I know. If, by chance, you get somebody to make them, put me down for
one to upgrade mine.
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| So to my old headmaster, and to anyone who cares ... |
Mike Schudel
replacing the female connectors with Trifurcon crimp contacts in a new
housing?
You can most certainly swap in another board and reconnect the new female
Trifurcon housings. And alternately you can take the reworked board with
the new .156" headers and put it in another game with the factory IDC
connectors.
The factory IDC contacts is the weak link and is inherent in the contact
point with the header pins.
I'd rather have a rebuilt header/connector/contact than one that is
tarnished or burned.
Mike Schudel
>I understand the reasoning behind replacing both halves of burned
> board IDC connectors.
>
> And the best way is to use Molex crimp-on pin connectors.
>
> But what about the drawbacks?
>
> Taking out the board to replace the male connector means disconnecting
> and reconnecting all those other IDC connectors, reducing their
> remaining short 25-cycle life and it seems asking for trouble.
>
> Once the board and the wires are changed over to Molex connectors, you
> are no longer able to swap the board with another, during
> troubleshooting or board replacement, without doing it to the new
> board, unless it just happens to already have that connector changed
> out the same way.
>
> I ordered a bunch of Molex pins, headers and connector shells to fix
> J101 on my Whitewater (burnt input to the 5v circuit) and the GI on my
> Funhouse, but I'm second guessing myself now, wondering whether it'd
> be overkill for home use. Not having the proper $95 crimper enters
> into it as well.
>
> Thoughts? I'm sure you guys who are old hats at this can set me
> straight!
Are you taking about replacing the male headers with .156" pins and
Dan Q very much
I have successfully changed out my first connector pair, and my White
Water is now humming along great with a no-longer-hacked transformer
input to the 5v circuit.
(What a fun game, BTW! It plays so fast, I can tell my reaction time
is improving! When I go back to my other games they seem like a
dawdle!)
Now for Rudy's GI connector!
Chris Hibler
Good to hear Dan...If I never see another IDC connector, it will be
too soon. Especially the WMC System 3-7 connectors. Those things are
murder on the fingers to remove.