pinballl2000 now online
QM
The moment we all have been waiting for is there: www.pinball200.com is
now online with full info on the pinball2000 system and williams first
pinball2000 relaese: Revenge from mars.
happy reading.
greetings,
QM
Dan Wilga
Wow. They thought of everything. Looking at the thought that went into the
overall design and ease of swapping, I'd say they are going to do a lot to
change the perception of pinball in the eyes of operators.
But is it my imagination, or is this machine much shorter (depth-wise) --
more like Safecracker than a regular-sized pin? I think fewer old-timers
would be willing to play a smaller machine.
Dan Wilga dwilga...@mtholyoke.edu
** Remove the REMOVE in my address address to reply reply **
AFL JoeyS
>But is it my imagination, or is this machine much shorter (depth-wise) --
>more like Safecracker than a regular-sized pin? I think fewer old-timers
>would be willing to play a smaller machine.
From the specifications, doesn't seem like it. They claim cabinet width 22",
depth 48". A normal pin isn't divided into cabinet/backbox like that, but is
typically cited at around width 29", depth 54". It looks to me like the
difference between those figures can be justified since it looks like (from the
Web pics) that the backbox doesn't overhang the playfield widthwise, like
typical backboxes do; same idea depthwise, although I don't think they could
quite get to zero overhang depthwise (need enough room for the
back-of-the-playfield stuff to live).
So my guess is, perhaps an inch or two shorter playfield, but not much more
than that.
Hopefully someone who actually goes to the show can give us a report. I'd
especially like to know if the game is FUN -- the P2K technology sounds great,
and I have no doubt the WMS guys did a great job implementing it. But if the
actual gameplay is a dud, it could kill the effort; similarly, if the game is
as widely loved as AFM, it combined with the technology could really be a
tremendous boost to the biz.
--Joe
Erik Mooney
>depth 48". A normal pin isn't divided into cabinet/backbox like that, but is
>typically cited at around width 29", depth 54". It looks to me like the
>difference between those figures can be justified since it looks like (from the
>Web pics) that the backbox doesn't overhang the playfield widthwise, like
>typical backboxes do; same idea depthwise, although I don't think they could
>quite get to zero overhang depthwise (need enough room for the
>back-of-the-playfield stuff to live).
>
>So my guess is, perhaps an inch or two shorter playfield, but not much more
>than that.
I'd still guess we'll have three to five inches less of playfield than on
WPC games.. the thing does look pretty short. Go through the Modularity
steps, and look at the picture in step 7.. that picture definitely looks
noticeably shorter than what we're used to.
>Hopefully someone who actually goes to the show can give us a report. I'd
>especially like to know if the game is FUN -- the P2K technology sounds great,
>and I have no doubt the WMS guys did a great job implementing it. But if the
>actual gameplay is a dud, it could kill the effort; similarly, if the game is
>as widely loved as AFM, it combined with the technology could really be a
>tremendous boost to the biz.
I have to say that the picture in the middle of the page (presumably a
gameplay picture), along with the picture in Modularity step 7, has me a
bit worried. Admittedly, it isn't all that clear, but the playfield
looks like a big vacuum save for the video images. I really hope that we
don't lose too many of the ramps and loops and drops and bumpers and
saucers and scoops and cannons and toys that we all know and love.
Strobe Multiball should be a blast and a half with that deep dark back of
the playfield, though :)
Scott Piehler
>hi fellow rgp'ers,
>The moment we all have been waiting for is there: www.pinball200.com is
>now online with full info on the pinball2000 system and williams first
>pinball2000 relaese: Revenge from mars.
>happy reading.
>greetings,
LOOKS like a winner. I'll reserve final judgement until playing the
beast.
They definitely put some thought into it.
Can't wait to hear from our London correspondents.
Scott
Scott Piehler...@mindspring.com
An archive of pinball rulesheets, as well as a listing of
newer pinball machines in the Atlanta area can be found at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~rosco29/pinball.htm
AFL JoeyS
>I have to say that the picture in the middle of the page (presumably a
>gameplay picture), along with the picture in Modularity step 7, has me a
>bit worried. Admittedly, it isn't all that clear, but the playfield
>looks like a big vacuum save for the video images. I really hope that we
>don't lose too many of the ramps and loops and drops and bumpers and
>saucers and scoops and cannons and toys that we all know and love.
So far Multimedia>alien.mov seems to offer the best idea of what RFM might
offer, if you really squint: two slingshots in their usual place, some sort of
orbit feed from the left (and I'll venture to say it has a companion on the
right, judging also from the playfield lights), a ramp on the left, a
flip-up/flip-down ramp (similar idea to NGG's slam ramp?) dead center, Stroke
of Luck-ish scoop where you'd expect to find Stroke of Luck, standups under the
physical Martians on the left and right middle of the field... I *think*
there's a right ramp too, but it's a little hard to tell...
In other words, this playfield, anyway, seems to bear a lot of resemblance to
AFM.
>Strobe Multiball should be a blast and a half with that deep dark back of
>the playfield, though :)
Yeah, this is a little disturbing... I like the on-playfield display of CV, but
I hope the back of the playfield is still usable.
Speaking of which, look at Modularity 9... looks like you can see part of the
CRT "projection" equipment at the top (back) of the playfield there.
--Joe
Bryan Oakley
>
> hi fellow rgp'ers,
> The moment we all have been waiting for is there: www.pinball200.com is
> now online with full info on the pinball2000 system and williams first
> pinball2000 relaese: Revenge from mars.
> happy reading.
> greetings,
Bleh. Count me out. Ok, given the choice of a p2k machine or a video
game, I'll pick p2k, but I certainly have no desire (at present, not
having played one) to have one of these strange machines in my home. I'm
sure that from an operators perspective these things will be a huge hit.
And, I guess, if it brings more people to pinball it's a good thing.
I just can't imagine how playing it will be more satisfactory than
playing a current p1.9k machine. I guess it will just take getting used
to it. Who knows -- maybe it will be more fun. Like timeshock with a
real, physical ball. It looks like most of the development of a new pin
will be software. Time to spruce up my resume! :-)
This is actually quite close in concept to what I had in my mind (ie:
use of video to replace a bunch of expensive mechanical pieces). The
implementation looks to be very smart (and much cheaper than what I
might have done).
Progress. *sigh*.
Time to make your wagers. Is this the death of pinball, or the rebirth?
--
Bryan Oakley mailto:oak...@channelpoint.com
ChannelPoint, Inc. http://purl.oclc.org/net/oakley
Bryan Oakley
>
> In article <36ACE68D...@xs4all.nl>, QM <jva...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> > hi fellow rgp'ers,
> > The moment we all have been waiting for is there: www.pinball200.com is
> > now online with full info on the pinball2000 system and williams first
> > pinball2000 relaese: Revenge from mars.
> > happy reading.
> > greetings,
> > QM
>
> overall design and ease of swapping, I'd say they are going to do a lot to
> change the perception of pinball in the eyes of operators.
>
> more like Safecracker than a regular-sized pin? I think fewer old-timers
> would be willing to play a smaller machine.
It looks to me like the machine will give the illusion of a standard
size table, but that the physical dimensions are a bit shorter. Pure
speculation, of course. Look at the back of the revenge from mars flyer.
The picture there looks to be about right, but almost all of the top
half is the projection from the video monitor?
I wish they would have put a real plunger in it instead of a button.
Sparky
> On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:47:57 +0100, QM <jva...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> >hi fellow rgp'ers,
> >The moment we all have been waiting for is there: www.pinball200.com is
> >now online with full info on the pinball2000 system
Hmm. Well, being that I'm only 5'2", I have a feeling I won't be able to
*see* any of those fancy new anims. I can't even see the piano shot on
our Twilight Zone... (not that it stops me from *making* the shot). Don't
think I'd want to play Pinball 2000, anyway...wasn't the "make pins look
more like video games and kids will play them" strategy tried
already...and didn't it fail?
From what's on the web site, I'm pretty disappointed. It doesn't really
look like much of an advancement for pinball, just a couple of old ideas
in slightly new form. And the playfield looks emptier than the Men's Room
at a Spice Girls concert.
Sigh.
Sparky
Spazzman
Death. I seeriously doubt that trading in the good ol DMD for a computer
monitor and then reflecting it off the glass constitutes a 'rebirth'. I like
how they try and spuce it up to be more than that, though. Who ever though
up 'projecting' probably got a raise. As with any revolution in video games
or whatever, it will be the gameplay that dictates this games fate. From
what I can see of the playfield, it is not too inspiring. We will probably
have to wait for 2 or 3 more games (if this design makes it that far) for a
real good game. I don't blame the people at williams, though. I just don't
get why people aren't playing games. All the bowling alleys in my area have
a good selection of decently maintained games. All the lanes could be full,
all the pool tables could be full, and people are just standing around
waiting for a lane or a table, but no one is playing one of those damn games!
Now that I've seen this at about 4 different alleys I can only assume this
goes on all over the country. Obviously Williams is just trying to break up
the monotony. I hope it works. Hopefully we will get some really good
designs in the future. Right now my list of must have machines is really
short. (TAF, CFTBL, Xenon) and I wouldn't mind adding to it.
my $.02
-spazzman
Elden
> > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:47:57 +0100, QM <jva...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >
> > >hi fellow rgp'ers,
> > >The moment we all have been waiting for is there: www.pinball200.com is
> > >now online with full info on the pinball2000 system
>
> Hmm. Well, being that I'm only 5'2", I have a feeling I won't be able to
> *see* any of those fancy new anims. I can't even see the piano shot on
> our Twilight Zone... (not that it stops me from *making* the shot). Don't
> think I'd want to play Pinball 2000, anyway...wasn't the "make pins look
> more like video games and kids will play them" strategy tried
> already...and didn't it fail?
Standard pins ARE failing... this had to happen. At least having animations
on the glass
directly over the targets makes great sense (like a HUD in a fighter). This
may entice
the younger generation to give it a try... just seeing the ball roll around
doesn't seem to be doing it.
>
>
> From what's on the web site, I'm pretty disappointed. It doesn't really
> look like much of an advancement for pinball, just a couple of old ideas
> in slightly new form.
Not me... it could have been an all-video pin for that matter. I think they
have kept what was important and added a nice twist. We'll see how it works
when it arrives.
> And the playfield looks emptier than the Men's Room
> at a Spice Girls concert.
Same setup as AFM... ramps on each side... Stroke of luck tunnel...etc...
>
>
> Sigh.
>
Cheer up. If this doesn't help it would have died anyways.
To give you some perspective... Wms has decided to still make CCanyon
after all... a whole
500 to 800 of 'em. That should give you an idea of how poor the market is
for these things.
How come everything I like never goes over that well with the general public
;-)
>
> Sparky
>
> --
> http://www.phobe.com
--
*CURRENT COLLECTION* (mint as possible)
-Funhouse, Addams Family, Creature From The Black Lagoon,
Junkyard, Medieval Madness and Monster Bash-
Elden
> How are we operators/resellers supposed to move beast around easily now
> without the head folding down?!?!??!
Yikes how many negative messages are you planning to post before you even
see the
thing in person? The head now comes off entirely...
>
>
> Yikes.
> And alot heavier too.
Bulk up buddy... 360 lbs comin' at ya...
>
> --
> Mike Singer
> AVP - Amusement, Video & Pinball
> Since 1992 - Buy, sell, trade, in home service.
> Baltimore, Md 410-321-0306
Ryan Avery
addition of the video monitor, it looks as though some of the playfield
might remain unused.
BTW: Anyone know who that woman is doing the playfield swapping?
And talk about an end to backglass collecting. That thing is tiny. At least
the heart of the pinball (flippers and slingshots) hasn't changed, looking
at the pictures.
A playfield swap in 60 seconds? Looks like it will take longer than that,
but still pretty damn fast.
Now I guess the next step is to wait for either a Beta run of the game in
my area (if WMS will do a beta run), or just wait until it comes out.
--
Ryan Avery
gro...@concentric.net
ICQ# 17490198
Daniel J. Northover
********************************
Daniel J. Northover
nort...@erols.com
********************************
Mike Singer
They claim cabinet width 22",
> depth 48".
more
> than that.
Typical pins are 53" deep.
That's 5" difference.
Mike Singer
Mike Singer
> look like much of an advancement for pinball, just a couple of old ideas
> in slightly new form.
Yeah I'm with you.
This scares me and looks like the end of pinball to me.
I don't like it the looks of the cabinet.
Final judgement to be reserved until after play tho :).
It looks like they thought of alot of features to be convenient for the
operator
such as p/f changeability, fuses, software updates, but did they have to
make it look like a Alvin G kiddie pinball cabinet????
Mike Singer
Mike Singer
without the head folding down?!?!??!
Yikes.
And alot heavier too.
Elden
> I'm a bit sceptical... as others said, the game looks short, and with the
> addition of the video monitor, it looks as though some of the playfield
> might remain unused.
>
> BTW: Anyone know who that woman is doing the playfield swapping?
You doof... that's a man! I agree the blue smock looks kinda feminine but
unless
this lady shaves everyday and wears a huge watch and has hairier arms than
me...
it's a guy;-)
Now apologize to the guy (he may read this stuff)!
-E
Dwight Sullivan
PIN2000 is a new animal (physically). It is going to take some new tactics
and thinking. The Idea is you will not need to move the entire game very
often. The playfield comes out very easily. And yes in 60 secs or less after
you have done it 3 times. You only have to move the playfield from location
to location. If you have to move the entire machine they still fit nicely on
a hand truck and through door ways. We made that one of our goals. One of
many.
The whole platform has been redesigned from scratch over the last many many
months. we started from a clean slate. Everything we have always wanted to
do was attempted with most of them successful.
Most of the design is modular. If your CPU is down: just bring a working one
with you to the location and with in seconds your game back up and earning
money. Then you take that CPU back to your work and at your leisure figure
out what was wrong. On (what I now call) classic Pins, an operator would
spend half hour or more digging around the pin in a dark in crowded bar with
a flash light.
Trust me. Most of your concerns have been addressed.
When you have seen you up close and personal please write me with all your
concerns. And I mean anyone.
Thanks for your time.
- Dwight Sullivan
xaq...@wms.com
Mike Singer wrote in message <01be48db$9d22e4e0$0184accf@pinbuoy>...
AFL JoeyS
>When you have seen you up close and personal please write me with all your
>concerns. And I mean anyone.
Thanks for writing your thoughts here on the group, Dwight! Always glad to
hear commentary from the lion's (Martian's?) den. (Same goes for Louis, Ted,
Pat, and all the other WMS guys who participate here!)
So pardon me if this has been answered somewhere that I didn't see -- but when
WILL we get to see this up close and personal? Presumably it's on display in
London now; when will US distributors start receiving RFM machines, even just
floor demos?
Thanks...
--Joe
Jocoloco
positive than negative).
The whole thing with modulare design for easy replacement and repair is
ingenious. Especially for locations who don't know jack sh*t about playfield
cleaning. Also, the video display and color scoring looks mindblowing. It has
that "4player video game" display. (Kind of like old videos like 4 player Ninja
Turtles) I kind of miss looking at the lower backbox for scores and animation,
but I must play RFM before makng a final opinion.
As for the appearance of the game, it looks a bit silly to me. It's great since
the speakers are closer to the player, but the backbox looks so bulky and
doesn't seem to have the traditional finesse of the old backbox design. Seems
like a Hard-Drivin' driving simulation unit or redemption machine. Also, is it
me, or are the flipper buttons as big as the launcher button?
The playfield seems VERY limited, IMHO. Perhaps there's more stuff hidden under
the monitor, but appears like the length of a Safecracker-sized game. Doesn't
seem to have the "open playfield that AFM did. But hey, I must not assume to
early!
Anyhow, these are just opinions just by sight, but I want them to be changed
for the better when I finally play it. (I'll actually be happy if I have to
wait forever in line!) I'm hoping so badly that this machine is a huge succes,
both financially and game play wise.
Best of luck, Williams!
-Joel
Cristof Falk
pinball 2k". I don't remember seeing the answer to this on the
http://www.pinball2000.com site, aside from the CPU being easily
replaced. Will RFM have a processor like late-model WMS, or is it new?
Thx! -cf
Clive Jones
<oak...@channelpoint.com> writes
>QM wrote:
>>
>> hi fellow rgp'ers,
>> The moment we all have been waiting for is there: www.pinball200.com is
>> pinball2000 relaese: Revenge from mars.
>> happy reading.
>> greetings,
>> QM
>
>game, I'll pick p2k, but I certainly have no desire (at present, not
>having played one) to have one of these strange machines in my home. I'm
>sure that from an operators perspective these things will be a huge hit.
>And, I guess, if it brings more people to pinball it's a good thing.
>
That's an astounding statement since you haven't played one yet(?)
>I just can't imagine how playing it will be more satisfactory than
>playing a current p1.9k machine. I guess it will just take getting used
>to it. Who knows -- maybe it will be more fun. Like timeshock with a
>real, physical ball. It looks like most of the development of a new pin
>will be software. Time to spruce up my resume! :-)
>
>This is actually quite close in concept to what I had in my mind (ie:
>use of video to replace a bunch of expensive mechanical pieces). The
>implementation looks to be very smart (and much cheaper than what I
>might have done).
>
>Progress. *sigh*.
I'd like to think that at least some of what P2K is about may be due to
the conversations we've had here on RGP over the past couple of years
regarding the future development of pinball. At least the remote (via
WMS web site) updating of game code has been implemented (if I read that
correctly). :P
>
>Time to make your wagers. Is this the death of pinball, or the rebirth?
>
Making wagers on a game not yet played? - Interesting...
We'll have a full report ready in about 12 hours - after we've thrashed
'Revenge from Mars' to death. :P (But no doubt you'll be hearing reports
throughout the day.)
No time for tea,- it's time for the 'England Guys' to kick those Martian
butts. ;)
Where's my Atomic Blaster? Oh, here it is...
Clive
Gre...@my-dejanews.com
Bryan Oakley <oak...@channelpoint.com> wrote:
> Time to make your wagers. Is this the death of pinball, or the rebirth?
I vote rebirth.
Seems to me that this is well thought out. They didn't eliminate all the
physical stuff, but they did lower maintenance cost and complexity quite a
bit.
And the projected images could add a great deal of depth to the gameplay if
used correctly. For instance, I can imagine an "Adventure" pin, where you
would use the physical targets to get armor, weapons, and spells, then
venture into the dungeon where the virtual targets would be used.
Of course, no matter how good the concept is, it can't work if no one
implements it well. I can't wait to see RFM in an arcade.
GreyFox
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Marco Vos
I have been working as a game designer for a couple of years for the
coin-op market in the Netherlands and I am just curious:
Does the basic idea for PINBALL2000 come from somebody who thought let's
make an inverted Atari Video Pinball (from 1979).
Everything looks very professional but personally I think that in the
future this concept will be a niche-market besides "classic"-style pins.
Succes!!!!
Marco Vos
The Netherlands
tom moeller
: One of the areas of speculation on this ng was "what cpu will be in
: http://www.pinball2000.com site, aside from the CPU being easily
: replaced. Will RFM have a processor like late-model WMS, or is it new?
From the looks of the guts on Modularity page 3 at
http://www.pinball2000.com/mod3.html
I'd say it's a standard PC motherboard. Power supply to the left, with
red/yellow/black wires as on a standard PC, and you can see a regular old
CPU socket with cooling fan on top - probably a 486 or slow Pentium. There
are lots of good development systems for embedded PC work - probably not
much for the 6809 these days. Especially with graphics. Much easier to buy
a $20 import VGA card than design and build something yourself in
Chicago... Not sure what the Prism card is - could be the custom I/O
board. Sound is probably custom too - they're still calling it DCS, so
it's not a soundblaster...
tom
stonemik
I read somewhere I think at Videotopia exhibit that Double Dragon was
the make or break vid...they changed the format to a more violent type
of game and saved the Vid industry but alienated most "old time classic"
non-violent vid players in favor of the new gun and violent vids this
brought new life and radically different players. Why did this happed?
they didn't do it right - no evolution into this more violent
genera,just do it...I think Williams may have gotten it right. (leave
it to the pinball crowd to do something like that.) In short, it could
be a change for the better... Now I'm not saying that this is death or
rebirth for pinball...I think it's an attempt to bring people who would
only play vids to the pinball world. Think of it...targets that could
randomly move and you could update the game (same playfield) with a
newer version of rom which could allow change the entire play of the
game - not just rules but also location of targets.
Now to me, cabinet looks like an VID ramed into the back of a pin.
My 0.09 cents (inflation)
stonemik
-----------
TZ, WW, Fire!
Visit the Where to play in DFW:
http://www.cyberramp.net/~stonemik/pdfw.html
The Korn
>After seeing the pictures of RFM, I'm about 65/35 on the whole thing (More
>positive than negative).
>
>The whole thing with modulare design for easy replacement and repair is
>ingenious. Especially for locations who don't know jack sh*t about playfield
>cleaning. Also, the video display and color scoring looks mindblowing. It has
>that "4player video game" display. (Kind of like old videos like 4 player Ninja
>Turtles) I kind of miss looking at the lower backbox for scores and animation,
>but I must play RFM before makng a final opinion.
Well, looking at the bigger picture, assuming that RFM plays just
great and we'll all want one (big assumption!), p2k is actually a big
boon for collectors.
Why? Because most crappy places that don't maintain their pins right
now would rather swap in a whole new playfield than buy a bottle of
Novus. Translation: lots of playfields will be available sooner than
normal. Maybe.
Of course, if you don't have a box to mount that playfield in, that
might cause a problem. But we'll cross that bridge after we build it.
Mike Singer
> Making wagers on a game not yet played? - Interesting...
Of course, we bet on horse races and professional sports before they're
played don't we?
Mike Singer
Mike Singer
> Yikes how many negative messages are you planning to post before you even
> see the
> thing in person?
2146. :)
Mike
Bradley Nelson
> One of the areas of speculation on this ng was "what cpu will be in
> pinball 2k". I don't remember seeing the answer to this on the
> http://www.pinball2000.com site, aside from the CPU being easily
> replaced. Will RFM have a processor like late-model WMS, or is it new?
Maybe it's just me seeing things from a computer geek's eyes, but I
really think the pictures on the P2K website seem to indicate that the
"CPU" is a good ol' commoditized PC with perhaps a custom PCI board or
two. Look at the pictures under "modularity", paying close attention to
the swapping of the ROMs.
If this is true, then this part of the design (IMHO) is pure genius by
WMS. This should allow them to add significant functionality while
keeping custom boards etc. to a minimum.
I'll have to withold overall judgement until I play one, though.
Also, does anyone have any idea what these things will be going for
price-wise?
Brad
Bill Bumgarner
If it is a PC...
...how long 'til the Linux geeks claim they have Linux running on it?