EM Tech Help: Gottlieb Target Alpha issues
pindude77
I am going through the restoration of a Target Alpha, and have
come across some things that are really puzzling. The game had been
somewhat playable, with some quirks -- namely, there was no such thing
as a one player game, with scoring occuring on up to all four of the
score reels, even though the start button had been pressed only once.
I have cleaned most (if not all) of the stepper units, checked
all of the relays (and found many switches that were badly bent/
crimped) and generally have cleaned as much as I have been able to so
far.
Now what I face is that I may have solved some issues and created
others. At this point, when I press the button to start a game, The DX
relay was "chattering" and sparking a little from one of the switches
sometimes upon attempted startup, but I think it was a switch gap that
was too close (I think this part MAY) be solved...then the start relay
will engage and the score motor starts turning, but will not stop
until I manually release the latch mechanism on the AX relay.
At that point, the game will score correctly, although not
necessarily on Player 1. Sometimes the Coin unit coil will fire,
other times not. Draining the ball will activate the outhole kicker
most of the time, but under no circumstances (so far) does either the
outhole kicker or the trough switch activate any relays (again, that I
can see) other than the P relay (Player relay, activated by the trough
switch), and that does not seem to be firing any coils that I am aware
of other than the stepper unit that hangs from the bottom of the
playfield -- and that only fires the first time that the trough switch
is activated, sending the disc all the way around and past any
contacts.
I have the startup sequence that I printed from Mr. pinball, but
I am in need of some steering... I have a schematic, but I am still
trying to, as Chris Hibler said, find the "zen" of the machine.
Any help will be greatl appreciated, as always!!!
Thanks,
David
Todd Newman
AX release is pulled in by Motor 4C (look for red and white wire),
Player 5A (on the black cam on the player unit) and the DX relay
(look for the Slate and black wire)
Check at each point with a test light for voltage. or you can try to
jumper around the switches and find the bad one.
This information is located at 13E on your schematic and page 3, item
6 in your manual and the last page of your manual. This will help you
get your Zen back.
pindude77
Hi Todd,
Thanks! I don't have a copy of the manual, so this is really
helpful. I'll report back as soon as I can check these items.
Thanks,
David
Todd Newman
I got your back. Check your email.
JDubbbs
> I got your back.
And mine..... Thanks for the help on my TA again Todd
John
jdubbbs
pindude77
Hi Todd,
Got your email -- thanks a million! As soon as I get a moment
(hopefully tomorrow) I will start on the items you listed and keep
working down the list. A few quick questions in the meantime -- how
are the individual contacts identified on a switch stack? For example,
when I look at the page (number 5, thank you very much!!!) with all of
the relays, it identifies contacts 7A and 1B for the Start (S) relay.
Am I reading this left to right, front to back...? And aren't there
more contacts than that on the S relay? Do those numbers refer to
something else completely?
Still Zen-less in Santa Rosa :-)
Kerry Imming
>
> Hi Todd,
> Got your email -- thanks a million! As soon as I get a moment
> (hopefully tomorrow) I will start on the items you listed and keep
> working down the list. A few quick questions in the meantime -- how
> are the individual contacts identified on a switch stack? For example,
> when I look at the page (number 5, thank you very much!!!) with all of
> the relays, it identifies contacts 7A and 1B for the Start (S) relay.
> Am I reading this left to right, front to back...? And aren't there
> more contacts than that on the S relay? Do those numbers refer to
> something else completely?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi David,
I think you're seeing the contact types on the relay. See the
"Reading Schematics" section here -> http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#schematic
Under "CONTACTS" it explains that A = normally open and B = normally
closed.
Use the wire colors from the schematic to find the right switch in the
relay stack.
There are also SCORE MOTOR switches on the schematics that have names
like 1A. On your Gottlieb these have the word MOTOR in front of
them. This can vary... e.g. some machines use circles around the
switch.
There are lots of people to help you here, so be sure to ask questions
if there's something you don't understand.
- Kerry
pindude77
Hi Kerry,
Thanks very much for your pointers -- they really are helping
bring me a step closer to figuring out what to do !!! One quick
question... am I correct in thinking of the circuitry as voltage that
flows from the transformer and is directed through switches to
multiple devices? The reason that I ask is that when I try to read the
schematic, I quickly lose track of where the juice is coming from and
going to. Recognizing the "path" that the electricity takes (and
therefore, knowing which relay to check first, second, etc., ) has
been very difficult for me to grasp.
And that is without even explaining my almost complete lack of
knowledge regarding the functions on a multimeter :-)
With each of these blocks of knowledge I am getting a LITTLE
closer to the "zen of the game" feeling that Chris spoke about, so all
of your help is greatly appreciated !!!!
Thanks,
David
Chris Hibler
> Hi Kerry,
> Thanks very much for your pointers -- they really are helping
> bring me a step closer to figuring out what to do !!! One quick
> question... am I correct in thinking of the circuitry as voltage that
> flows from the transformer and is directed through switches to
> multiple devices? The reason that I ask is that when I try to read the
> schematic, I quickly lose track of where the juice is coming from and
> going to. Recognizing the "path" that the electricity takes (and
> therefore, knowing which relay to check first, second, etc., ) has
> been very difficult for me to grasp.
> And that is without even explaining my almost complete lack of
> knowledge regarding the functions on a multimeter :-)
>
> With each of these blocks of knowledge I am getting a LITTLE
> closer to the "zen of the game" feeling that Chris spoke about, so all
> of your help is greatly appreciated !!!!
>
> Thanks,
> David
You are doing well grasshopper... :-)
To answer your question, yes, in general, single or multiple switches
can complete circuits to single or multiple devices (coils). That
doesn't create a feeling of determinism, I know.
Here's an example. A 10 point switch will complete the circuit to the
10 point relay coil causing that coil to draw in it's armature. That
armature will (typically) have 4 normally open switches which will all
close. These newly closed switches complete the circuit to:
1. the 10 point relay coil itself to "seal it in".
2. the 10 point chime coil
3. the 10 point score reel coil
4. the 100 point score reel coil via the 10 point score reel's 9th
position switch.
It's easiest for me to "achieve the zen" by thinking of the flow from
the power rail (red/white wire) on the right side of the schematic,
then to the left via various switches, then finally to a coil and back
to the ground rail in the center of the schematic (black wire)
Good luck on your journey to enlightenment, grasshopper... :-)
~A journey of a thousand relays begins with one "stepper"~
- Dr. AL Garber, circa December, 2006
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
Kerry Imming
>
> Hi Kerry,
> Thanks very much for your pointers -- they really are helping
> bring me a step closer to figuring out what to do !!! One quick
> question... am I correct in thinking of the circuitry as voltage that
> flows from the transformer and is directed through switches to
> multiple devices? The reason that I ask is that when I try to read the
> schematic, I quickly lose track of where the juice is coming from and
> going to. Recognizing the "path" that the electricity takes (and
> therefore, knowing which relay to check first, second, etc., ) has
> been very difficult for me to grasp.
> And that is without even explaining my almost complete lack of
> knowledge regarding the functions on a multimeter :-)
>
> With each of these blocks of knowledge I am getting a LITTLE
> closer to the "zen of the game" feeling that Chris spoke about, so all
> of your help is greatly appreciated !!!!
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Show quoted text -
For the next step, I recommend you find ONE thing that you know isn't
working and then focus on the circuit path for that one thing. As you
track that one down and fix it, either everything will start working
or you pick the next item. Experience will help you pick the one that
will fix more things at once, but this will get you that
experience :-)
If you share/post what function you're working at here we can help you
understand the switches involved in that function.
- Kerry
pindude77
Hi Kerry,
I can get the game to start only by manually unlatching the AX
relay, and I did receive the advice above -- ("AX release is pulled in
by Motor 4C (look for red and white wire),
Player 5A (on the black cam on the player unit) and the DX relay
(look for the Slate and black wire)" ) . I have checked those items
and have found nothing wrong there -- as far as I can tell -- although
I'll check again.
Once the game starts, it is the same issue as posted above -- I
cannot get the game to decrement balls, and the player listed as
playing is often the 4th player (although I typically only push the
start button once. There is no way to end the game without turning off
the machine.
I did take apart and clean the coin stepper unit, and I'm worried
that the switch on the right (at the end of the step-up process that
takes the game from 1 player to 2 players to 3 players to 4 players)
may be misadjusted now. It may or may not be related to other issues,
as I cleaned and adjusted MANY switches that were clearly crimped, way
off or stuck...
Any help to point me further in the direction of what to continue
with will be welcomed !!!!
Thanks,
David
pindude77
Hi Kerry,
Some clarification... I should have said that the start relay
will pull in, the AX relay will latch, and the score motor will start
turning, only to stop when I either push down on the "delatching" coil
or jump it.
There does not seem to be anything firing the coil for the Player
Unit during the above described sequence.
Thanks,
David
Kerry Imming
> will pull in, the AX relay will latch, and the score motor will start
> turning, only to stop when I either push down on the "delatching" coil
> or jump it.
> There does not seem to be anything firing the coil for the Player
> Unit during the above described sequence.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ah, now that's an excellent problem description. The ONE problem to
focus on is AX relay not resetting at end of reset sequence.
Find AX reset relay in the "Relays" table on the left side of the
schematics... AXR is at 13E. Find the AXR at 13E and trace the coil
wire to the right. It goes through a switch on DX, P5A, MOTOR 4C, and
then over to the RED-WHITE wire. Normally you'd start working to
figure out which of those switches wasn't working, but you already
told me the PLAYER UNIT wasn't advancing (so P5A isn't going to work).
Back over to the "Other Coils" table and find the ADD PLAYER UNIT
coil, it's at 14E. Now... this is about as complex as it gets here...
there's some player 3&4 reset stuff in series with player 1&2 reset
stuff. Next there's a switch on BX, P, then the COIN UNIT, switch on
DX and a switch on E. There's also a control path through the START
RELAY (S).
Exerience helps here, but it's time to sit down and think a bit. The
PLAYER UNIT isn't running, so I wouldn't suspect it's the "reset
complete" logic controlled by Z1/Z2. Also, you said the player unit
didn't move AT ALL, and the S relay switch should advance it at least
once, so let's start there (look at the simple stuff first).
The S relay must be energizing, because it also starts the SCORE
MOTOR. Clean and adjust the switch on S with White-Slate and Yellow-
Blue wires.
Since the other control path is controlled by the ADD PLAYER UNIT
relay (P), another quick check is to activate that path by manually
closing DX and P and see if the PLAYER UNIT advances.
Report back with your findings and we'll see where that takes us next.
Hang in there, you're doing great.
- Kerry
pindude77
Hi Kerry,
Once again, thanks -- this is really helpful, and for a moment
there, I was "feeling the zen" as I followed your description across
the schematic -- maybe some of this is sinking in!
I will try your suggestions shortly after writing this. In the
meantime, I wanted to mention that I did re-read Clay's description of
the startup sequence for these years of Gottlieb games, and one thing
that I can add is that upon attempted startup, the number of players
displayed on the backglass is always 1 and 4. According to Clay's
guide, that means that the coin unit is not operating correctly. Just
want to throw that into the mix, since the coin unit seems to figure
into the startup sequence as well...
The trouble that I have is understanding sentences in the startup
sequence description that read ""Z1 an Z2 are energized in sequence by
rivets on the Player unit, through switches on AX relay". I know that
the rivets themselves are not energized, but simply direct the flow of
electricity along the right path. Still, it is hard for me to grasp
that path -- I am always looking for a "1st stop, 2nd stop", etc.).
Your way of describing this process is starting to reveal to me
how this sequence works. Thanks again -- I'll report the results of
what you suggested shortly !!!
David
Kerry Imming
> there, I was "feeling the zen" as I followed your description across
> the schematic -- maybe some of this is sinking in!
>
> I will try your suggestions shortly after writing this. In the
> meantime, I wanted to mention that I did re-read Clay's description of
> the startup sequence for these years of Gottlieb games, and one thing
> that I can add is that upon attempted startup, the number of players
> displayed on the backglass is always 1 and 4. According to Clay's
> guide, that means that the coin unit is not operating correctly. Just
> want to throw that into the mix, since the coin unit seems to figure
> into the startup sequence as well...
> The trouble that I have is understanding sentences in the startup
> sequence description that read ""Z1 an Z2 are energized in sequence by
> rivets on the Player unit, through switches on AX relay". I know that
> the rivets themselves are not energized, but simply direct the flow of
> electricity along the right path. Still, it is hard for me to grasp
> that path -- I am always looking for a "1st stop, 2nd stop", etc.).
> Your way of describing this process is starting to reveal to me
> how this sequence works. Thanks again -- I'll report the results of
> what you suggested shortly !!!
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
A couple quick comments:
1. For the stepper units... wiper + rivet = switch
2. Z1 & Z2 divide the reset unit into two halves, player 1&2 and
player 3&4. I assume because the current draw of trying to reset
everything at once would blow the fuse.
3. One important note about reading schematics. It's a comment down
toward the bottom left. The relays are shown as "Machine reset, ready
for 1st player (e.g. ball in shooter lane), cord unplugged." This
means that you may find open/closed switches in different states if
you're not through the reset sequence. If this doesn't make sense
right now, don't worry. It really only means to focus on the switches
in the path and NOT the open/closed state they're drawn in.
- Kerry
pindude77
Hi Kerry,
Well, something is working, because I just cleaned that switch on
the S relay and also tried to see what happened when I manually
activated the P relay. In the process, I found that both the Bx and Ax
relays had leaves that popped out, causing those relays to stick (this
has happened before on the Bx relay, so I will keep an eye on it). I
adjusted them and got the game started, with the following notes:
* The P relay did activate the Player unit, and just for good
measure, I tried starting the game several more times, and the Player
unit coil seems to be firing and the score reels are resetting.
* The coin unit seems to be operating, although it is still
sticky, and I'm not sure that the EOS (?) switch is proper;y adjusted
-- it was quite mangled when i got the game, and I'm not sure it is in
the right position.
* The Ax relay still does not de-latch on its own.
* Upon manually de-latching the Ax relay, the flipper work and the
game was scoring (on Player 1! :- What was strange, though, is the
the Outhole kicker did nothing at all until I fired the relay
manually. I still do not see the game decrementing any balls.
This feels as if it is starting to be on the right track....
thanks again for your advice so far !!!
David
Chris Hibler
It sounds like you and Kerry are making progress David.
You have to get the coin unit ungunked and working properly. That
stepper is key to correctly advancing from player to player.
Here's part of a post regarding operation of the player unit I made a
while back. This post discusses the player unit operation after
initialization is complete.
Here's how the circuit works.
1. The ball is served from the outhole to the shooter lane.
2. As the ball travels to the shooter lane, it crosses the trough
switch and closes it.
3. Closing the trough switch completes the circuit to the P relay
which energizes. P is sealed in by a switch on P itself. It will
continue to be sealed in for nearly the entire 1/3 rotation of the
score motor. It is eventually unsealed via a normally closed (NC)
switch at motor 2B. It would be instructional to review the motor
sequence chart on the schematics.
4. A switch on the P relay starts the score motor.
5. Turn your attention to the circuitry on the schematic that is in
series with the "Add Player Unit" coil (APU).
6. Ignore the 4th player reset switches, 3rd player reset switches,
etc for now.
7. You can see that there are switches on Z2 and Z1 that are in series
with the APU coil.
8. As the score motor turns, the switch at motor 1A will close. Follow
the circuit on the schematics from that switch through the switch on
BX, through the (now closed) switch on P, through a switch at motor 2C
which closes early in the motor rotation (again, see the motor
sequence chart), through a closed switch on U (assuming a few points
where scored on the first ball), then back to the red/white power
rail. It is via this circuit that the first pulse of the APU occurs.
9. Now...since we are playing a 1 player game, the coin unit hasn't
advanced and the schematic is representative of it's position.
10. The next pulse of the APU comes shortly after the pulse caused by
motor 2C but this one comes via...motor 1A, BX, P, and this time, P2G
on the player unit and the snowshoes on the coin unit, then thru U and
back to the red/white rail. Again referencing the motor sequence unit,
the closure of motor 1A that causes this happens between 60 and 75
degrees.
11. The next pulse of the APU comes similarly, but via the circuit
that includes P3G and the coin unit. The motor 1A switch closure
occurs at 90 degrees rotation.
12. The final pulse of the APU comes via P4G, the coin unit, and the
motor 1A closure between 105 and 120 degrees. For a single player
game, the player unit will have advanced 4 times to player 1, ball 2.
13. Now that all 4 pulses have occurred, P is unsealed via a switch at
motor 2B as noted in (3) above.
Pretty simple, eh?
Now, if you had set up a 2 player game, the coin unit will have
advanced once so that even though the switch at P2G closes, the coin
unit snowshoes are not positioned to complete the circuit and the
player unit will advance only 1 step. After player 2 completes his
ball and the ball crosses the trough switch again, the process will
continue but this time sequential closures at P3G, P4G and the
corresponding coin unit snowshoes will cause the player unit to
advance 3 times, back to player 1.
***And here is part of a post describing the initializatin***
Let's get the score reels resetting correctly first.
Z1 resets player 1/2 scores, Z2 resets player 3/4 scores.
As shown on the schematics, Z1 and Z2 energize at player unit
positions 20 and 21.
If a player score has not reset to zero (where the "zero position
switch" aka the runout switch on each score reel makes) when Z1 or Z2
is energized, the game should continue to attempt to reset that
players scores continuously and will not move on until it has achieved
this. So yes, checking the proper operation of all of the switches on
all of the score reels should be done. Clean and adjust as necessary.
Once all the score reels are reset, then the circuit (working backward
across the schematic) to the player unit via the NC switches on each
reel for each player, via motor 1A, via P5B, via AX, will complete and
the player unit steps up again. This releases Z2 (Z1 had already been
released).
The player unit will pulse 4 or 5 more times via this same circuit
until the cam at P5 raises that switch stack. AXR is energized to
release AX at this time. At this point, initialization is complete and
all that remains is to serve a ball to the shooter lane.
The outhole relay "O" is energized via NC switch on motor 2B, NC
switch on motor 1C, the ball return switch (aka the outhole switch), a
make/break switch on A, an NC switch on AX, and yet another NC switch
on Q.
Step 1...make sure each score reel switch operates properly
Step 2...If the player unit has advanced to the point where P5 is over
the cam and there is a ball in the outhole, use a jumper wire to
jumper around the various switches in the circuit above until you find
the one that's not making. Since there is an NC switch on AX (slate-
black/white-orange) that is in this circuit, that's one that I'd check
first.
***End of post***
Kerry Imming
> the S relay and also tried to see what happened when I manually
> activated the P relay. In the process, I found that both the Bx and Ax
> relays had leaves that popped out, causing those relays to stick (this
> has happened before on the Bx relay, so I will keep an eye on it). I
> adjusted them and got the game started, with the following notes:
> * The P relay did activate the Player unit, and just for good
> measure, I tried starting the game several more times, and the Player
> unit coil seems to be firing and the score reels are resetting.
> * The coin unit seems to be operating, although it is still
> sticky, and I'm not sure that the EOS (?) switch is proper;y adjusted
> -- it was quite mangled when i got the game, and I'm not sure it is in
> the right position.
> * The Ax relay still does not de-latch on its own.
> * Upon manually de-latching the Ax relay, the flipper work and the
> game was scoring (on Player 1! :- What was strange, though, is the
> the Outhole kicker did nothing at all until I fired the relay
> manually. I still do not see the game decrementing any balls.
>
> This feels as if it is starting to be on the right track....
> thanks again for your advice so far !!!
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi David, sounds like you're making good progress... and Chris, jump
in with whatever advice you have.
The EOS switch is a feedback mechanism to tell the triggering relay
that something has completed, in this case a full stroke to advance
the COIN UNIT. Sometimes things will work intermittently if the EOS
stroke is stuck open. If it's stuck closed you'll likely have a relay
that gets stuck on (energized). (Note that flipper EOS switches are
slightly different than this)
Anyway... check to make sure the EOS switch on the COIN UNIT is
closed. Manually actuate the advance solenoid and make sure when the
plunger is fully out that it hits the EOS switch and opens it about
1/8".
As for the AX reset... check PLAYER UNIT swith P5A. It's on CAM 5,
farthest from the steel ratchet, and the swtich closest to the CAM.
BUT... it wasn't clear from your description... does the PLAYER UNIT
keep advancing? It shouldn't stop until the reset is complete.
On the BALL RETURN... is it the O relay you're pressing manually to
kick out a ball. If so, go to 20E on the schematics and look at the
switches controlling it. One of them is on the AX relay, so mabe AX
isn't quite adjusted right yet? Those latching relays are real tricky
to get right.
- Kerry
pindude77
Hi Kerry, Chris,
Thanks for continuing to point me in the right direction! I have
to travel for the day tomorrow, but I might be able to post an update
tomorrow night.
Thanks Again,
David
pindude77
Hi Team,
I have only had about another hour or so to work on this since my
last post, and have cleaned several of the switches as indicated by
your generous help, but things are either getting close or they are
more confusing than ever... I think it is getting closer to be
solved... :-)
Here is what has happened:
* Thanks to all of your guidance and some switch adjustment,
I can now start the game SOME of the time normally. It is not yet
clear why pressing the start button (or start relay) sometimes works,
but when I press the start button, the score motor always turns 1/3
turn. Sometimes the rest of the sequence will occur--score reels
reset, the coin unit coils fires and assigns Player 1 and added
players as requested, meaning that the Z1, Z2 relays and Add Player
Unit are all working at that time. Yea !!!!
* The game ALWAYS scores correctly as events occur on the
playfield, even when the game was not assigning the scores to the
right player.
* Now I am seeing some strange things in this game that I
didn't notice before:
* Sometimes the tilt light will be on, although the
game is still functioning:
* The Outhole kicker will sometimes work through it own
switch, but always works if the relay is jumped.
* The drop targets do not reset at either the start of
the game nor after they are completed (although this last part might
be part of a rule set...)
I am very grateful for the help, and, although my family and I
are leaving on a trip until the Saturday after Thanksgiving, I am so
committed to this that I am bring the schematic and manual with me on
the trip, in an effort to continue my education! Any advice will, as
always be appreciated. I'll have my laptop with me, and can respond to
any posts while gone. I just won't be able to "get under the hood"...
Thanks Again,
David
Kerry Imming
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'd be curious to know if the player advance works correctly for a 4-
player game. That is, is it only have problems when the player unit
has to skip over players?
On the TILT relay, first thing to check is whether it's actuated. If
not, it's just a switch problem on the H relay that is turning on the
light.
Drop target only reset between balls.
Both OUTHOLE and drop target reset paths run through the DX relay. In
fact, so does the PLAYER UNIT advance. That (the DX relay) would be
the first thing I'd check.
Enjoy the quality time with your schematics :-) I suggest looking at
a coil, tracing to the right to see what switches are in the circuit,
and then trying to understand why that relay would need to control
that function.
- Kerry
ScooterMcTavish
adjustment,
I can now start the game SOME of the time normally. It is not yet
clear why pressing the start button (or start relay) sometimes works,
but when I press the start button, the score motor always turns 1/3
turn. Sometimes the rest of the sequence will occur--score reels
reset, the coin unit coils fires and assigns Player 1 and added
players as requested, meaning that the Z1, Z2 relays and Add Player
Hey Pindude,
Sorry to be late, and these Team EM guys know way more than I do.
However, your start sequence issues sound familiar to ones I've
recently had, especially the 1/3rd turn issue on the score motor.
Was this machine dead or in storage for some time?
Reason I ask is that I had a whole stack on my score motor out of
adjustment, mainly as the machine had been off with pressure on the
switches for an extended period of time. It's not totally clear from
your post - have you visually inspected all of the score motor
switches and confirmed their status against the schematic?
Also, have you gone through the manual's start sequence and the
description of the score motor switches to see if you maybe have one
switch dirty or out of adjustment causing your issue?
Funny thing I found with the score motor switches is that one (yes
one) switch was keeping my Ax from latching, my Jx from unlatching, my
ball count stepper from resetting, and my play meter from
incrementing.
Another funny thing I found was that I adjusted a switch not
apparently related to scoring on the score motor, and all of a sudden
my score motor generated scores (500, 5000, 10000) stopped working.
Just some random thoughts, and hopefully you find them helpful.
Scott
pindude77
> > On Nov 19, 1:01 pm, pindude77 <dber...@teamdba.com> wrote:
>
> [quote] * Thanks to all of your guidance and some switch
> adjustment,
> I can now start the game SOME of the time normally. It is not yet
> clear why pressing the start button (or start relay) sometimes works,
> but when I press the start button, the score motor always turns 1/3
> turn. Sometimes the rest of the sequence will occur--score reels
> reset, the coin unit coils fires and assigns Player 1 and added
> players as requested, meaning that the Z1, Z2 relays and Add Player
> Unit are all working at that time. Yea !!!! [/quote]
>
> Hey Pindude,
>
> However, your start sequence issues sound familiar to ones I've
> recently had, especially the 1/3rd turn issue on the score motor.
>
> Was this machine dead or in storage for some time?
>
> Reason I ask is that I had a whole stack on my score motor out of
> adjustment, mainly as the machine had been off with pressure on the
> switches for an extended period of time. It's not totally clear from
> your post - have you visually inspected all of the score motor
> switches and confirmed their status against the schematic?
>
> Also, have you gone through the manual's start sequence and the
> description of the score motor switches to see if you maybe have one
> switch dirty or out of adjustment causing your issue?
>
> Funny thing I found with the score motor switches is that one (yes
> one) switch was keeping my Ax from latching, my Jx from unlatching, my
> ball count stepper from resetting, and my play meter from
> incrementing.
>
> Another funny thing I found was that I adjusted a switch not
> apparently related to scoring on the score motor, and all of a sudden
> my score motor generated scores (500, 5000, 10000) stopped working.
>
> Just some random thoughts, and hopefully you find them helpful.
>
> Scott
Hi Scott, Team,
I have only cleaned and adjusted a few switches on the score
motor. If anyone can share their method for getting at the switches
behind/below the outer stacks, I'd appreciate it!!!
I'm also assuming that "normally closed" or "normally open"
switches on the score motor refer to the times that the switch is
neither activated by a post or dropping into a notch on the score
motor disc... please correct me if I am off base here :-)
In fact, any pointers at all regarding the claning and adjustment
of the score motor switches will be appreciated. To say that I am
intimidated by this job is an understatement!
Thanks,
David
ScooterMcTavish
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi David,
Good reason to be intimidated. One simple misadjustment on one of the
switches can mess you up in an unrelated way. That actually happened
to me earlier this week where I messed up my scoring by adjusting a
switch that was not out of adjustment.
For the bottom stacks, I actually find it easier to remove the stack,
and clean and adjust once it's off. Then when I put it back on, I use
a million-candlepower flashlight to observe the switches while I
manually turn the motor. Just make a careful note of which wire is on
the top before you take it off - especially important if you have
switched on both the inside and outside of the numbered post.
However, before doing the above, please note:
- I do this on a single player wedgehead, not that @#%$&@# switch
stack the four-players like Target Alpha seem to have.
- If you check the manual, it will list the roles of each switch on
the socre motor; I'd try figuring which switches to look at first
before pulling off switch stacks.
For me with my Golden Arrow, they key was noticing the correct
symptoms (all of them) like my ball stepper was not kicking down, my
Ax was not latching, and my Jx was not unlatching. When I reviewed
the manual, sure enough, it told me EXACTLY which switch not working
would cause all of these symptoms. I don't think I'd recommend
pulling off all the stacks and cleaning and adjusting them - I'd only
touch the ones that may relate to my issues.
If memory serves correct, normally open or closed is determined when
the score motor is at rest. However, the Team EM guys are way smarter
than me, and will correct me if I'm wrong.
FYI, I used to have a Solar City and finally sold it as I spent two
hours fixing it for every hour I played. Check out the IPDB - Solar
City reuses teh same plastics as Target Alpha.
Grrrr, now I want an El Dorado.
pindude77
> - If you check the manual, it will list the roles of each switch on
> the socre motor; I'd try figuring which switches to look at first
> before pulling off switch stacks.
>
> For me with my Golden Arrow, they key was noticing the correct
> symptoms (all of them) like my ball stepper was not kicking down, my
> Ax was not latching, and my Jx was not unlatching. When I reviewed
> the manual, sure enough, it told me EXACTLY which switch not working
> would cause all of these symptoms. I don't think I'd recommend
> pulling off all the stacks and cleaning and adjusting them - I'd only
> touch the ones that may relate to my issues.
>
> If memory serves correct, normally open or closed is determined when
> than me, and will correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> FYI, I used to have a Solar City and finally sold it as I spent two
> hours fixing it for every hour I played. Check out the IPDB - Solar
> City reuses teh same plastics asTargetAlpha.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Scott,
I will definitely proceed with caution. I do have the schematic,
so that should help narrow down some of the guesswork, along with the
fact that the EM Team has been guiding my every move so far!
Thanks,
David
ScooterMcTavish
The Team-EM guys are a great resource, and help out us people who
stubbornly cling to EM pins.
Only thing I'd suggest at this point is if you don't have a manual to
get one. I was able to ID and fix my problems via manual - much
easier than via schematic.
God willing, I'll never be dependent on a Gottlieb schem to fix a pin!
Good luck with the TA - I have two whole pins, and only 4 drops
between the two of them. Not necessarily a bad thing.....
Chris Hibler
Hello David,
NC and NO refer to the switch state after game initialization, with a
ball served to the shooter lane, and the line cord unplugged. For
score motor switches, when the motor is at it's "home" position, NC
and NO are equivalent to closed and open. i.e. if a motor switch is
shown as open on the schematics, you should find it to be open on the
actual motor.
Cleaning and adjusting some motor switches is the art of fishing a
flexstone file through one or more switch stacks to get to the switch
you intend to clean. Sometimes, a short length of flexstone file is
helpful to have.
pindude77
> fact that theEMTeam has been guiding my every move so far!
>
> Thanks,
> David
Hi Team,
I am back after my trip, and have spent another 4 or 5 hours
trying to get this game running. At times, the whole sequence seems to
work, including the Player Unit and the drop targte resets (although
those are still pretty inconsistent). The one thing I've noticed,
though, is that the game NEVER sets up for 4 players. I believe that
the Player Unit wiper disc is off by one position, so I am not too
concerned about that...
The bigger issues are the that of inconsistency. Now, when I
press the start button on the door, I often get NO response. Sometimes
the score motor will turn 1/3 of a rotation, but the AX relay does not
engage. What is really bizarre is that SOMETIMES I can get the whole
start sequence to occur -- although not lately. Now, if I press the
button or manually engage the start relay, I only get the 1/3 turn.
Manually activating the AX relay will sometimes start the game, but I
have to also manually de-active that relay.
HELP !!!!! I feel that I am so close, but at times it feels
further away than ever!!!!
Thanks,
David
Kerry Imming
>
> Hi Team,
> I am back after my trip, and have spent another 4 or 5 hours
> trying to get this game running. At times, the whole sequence seems to
> work, including the Player Unit and the drop targte resets (although
> those are still pretty inconsistent). The one thing I've noticed,
> though, is that the game NEVER sets up for 4 players. I believe that
> the Player Unit wiper disc is off by one position, so I am not too
> concerned about that...
> The bigger issues are the that of inconsistency. Now, when I
> press the start button on the door, I often get NO response. Sometimes
> the score motor will turn 1/3 of a rotation, but the AX relay does not
> engage. What is really bizarre is that SOMETIMES I can get the whole
> start sequence to occur -- although not lately. Now, if I press the
> button or manually engage the start relay, I only get the 1/3 turn.
> Manually activating the AX relay will sometimes start the game, but I
> have to also manually de-active that relay.
> HELP !!!!! I feel that I am so close, but at times it feels
> further away than ever!!!!
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Show quoted text -
You're very close, but intermittent problems are tough. Start at the
beginning... you say when you press the START button nothing happens.
Does that mean the REPLAY BUTTON (V) relay doesn't pull in?
If it doesn't then there are quite a few switches that need to be
checked and cleaned. The REPLAY BUTTON coil is at 21E on the
schematics. Trace the wire from the right side of that COIL and check/
clean/adjust those switches.
- Kerry
Tinker
> On Dec 5, 3:24 pm, pindude77 <dber...@teamdba.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Team,
> > I am back after my trip, and have spent another 4 or 5 hours
> > trying to get this game running. At times, the whole sequence seems to
> > work, including the Player Unit and the drop targte resets (although
> > those are still pretty inconsistent). The one thing I've noticed,
> > though, is that the game NEVER sets up for 4 players. I believe that
> > the Player Unit wiper disc is off by one position, so I am not too
> > concerned about that...
> > press the start button on the door, I often get NO response. Sometimes
> > the score motor will turn 1/3 of a rotation, but the AX relay does not
> > engage. What is really bizarre is that SOMETIMES I can get the whole
> > start sequence to occur -- although not lately. Now, if I press the
> > button or manually engage the start relay, I only get the 1/3 turn.
> > Manually activating the AX relay will sometimes start the game, but I
> > have to also manually de-active that relay.
> > HELP !!!!! I feel that I am so close, but at times it feels
> > further away than ever!!!!
>
> > Thanks,
> > David- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You're very close, but intermittent problems are tough. Start at the
> beginning... you say when you press the START button nothing happens.
> Does that mean the REPLAY BUTTON (V) relay doesn't pull in?
>
> If it doesn't then there are quite a few switches that need to be
> checked and cleaned. The REPLAY BUTTON coil is at 21E on the
> schematics. Trace the wire from the right side of that COIL and check/
> clean/adjust those switches.
>
> - Kerry
Hi Kerry,
Yes, the V relay was not pulling in. I checked it and one of the
switches was closed ALL of the time. I adjusted it, and saw no
change...again. Then I bumped the DX relay to see if that made any
difference. Suddenly everything (including the V relay) was firing up
when I hit the start button. I adjusted the DX relay for what seems
like the 20th time, and now the issue I had with the Outhole kicker
was resolved.
So yes, it is getting closer -- thanks in no small part to your
willingness to stick it out with me!!! I'm now confident that this
game will work. I am learning that even though a relay may look
correct, it may need more adjustment -- especially those stacks with a
ton of switches.
One quick question: how likely is it that the return springs on a
relay could be too weak? Is it common, or not likely? I noticed that
the DX relay has a hard time returning to its original position,
despite my adjusting it numerous times.
Thanks,
David
Kerry Imming
>
> Hi Kerry,
> Yes, the V relay was not pulling in. I checked it and one of the
> switches was closed ALL of the time. I adjusted it, and saw no
> change...again. Then I bumped the DX relay to see if that made any
> difference. Suddenly everything (including the V relay) was firing up
> when I hit the start button. I adjusted the DX relay for what seems
> like the 20th time, and now the issue I had with the Outhole kicker
> was resolved.
> So yes, it is getting closer -- thanks in no small part to your
> willingness to stick it out with me!!! I'm now confident that this
> game will work. I am learning that even though a relay may look
> correct, it may need more adjustment -- especially those stacks with a
> ton of switches.
> One quick question: how likely is it that the return springs on a
> relay could be too weak? Is it common, or not likely? I noticed that
> the DX relay has a hard time returning to its original position,
> despite my adjusting it numerous times.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've never seen a bad relay spring, but that's not a very big sample
of machines. To me it would be more likely that someone "fixed" a
problem by putting on the wrong spring. Compare to the AX and BX
relays to see if the look and feel the same.
Clay's site talks about a couple problems... see if this helps:
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#reset
scroll down to "Gottlieb Latch Relay Problems".
Those latching relays are notorious for their problems and finicky
adjustments, so you may just need to keep tweaking until you get it to
work.
- Kerry
P.S. Chris H... Any adjustment wisdom to add for David?
Tinker
Hi Kerry,
Thanks for the tip! I think that the relays are getting closer.
Tonight I tried to tweak it some more, and I can see that the DX relay
still needs some more adjustment, because it does not "snap" back into
position very quickly. I'll keep adjusting it and the AX, which also
is not consistent in its operation, and report back with any progress
(or not).
Thanks,
David
ScooterMcTavish
Glad to hear you are making progress.
Just as a note, if the switch looks right, and unlatches easy (not
sticking) when you move it by hand, it is likely a switch elsewhere
causing it not to unlatch.
I had this issue with the JX switch on my Golden Arrow - I adjusted
the switch like 9 times before realizing it was part of my start-up
sequence issues, and was not unlatching due to an issue with a switch
on the score motor needing a clean/adjustment.
Did you have a manual for your pin? My manual listed the start
sequence so I could follow things through step by step. It also
listed what each switch on the score motor did, making it easier for
me to diagnose where the Ax, Jx and ball stepper issues were.
Also, if the pin was in storage for a long time with the relay
latched, it could stretch the spring - I have seen this before,
especially with those small Gottlieb steppers. Again though, if you
can unlatch it easy enough, I'm guessing it is a switch.
Tinker
> Hi David,
>
> Glad to hear you are making progress.
>
> Just as a note, if the switch looks right, and unlatches easy (not
> sticking) when you move it by hand, it is likely a switch elsewhere
> causing it not to unlatch.
>
> I had this issue with the JX switch on my Golden Arrow - I adjusted
> the switch like 9 times before realizing it was part of my start-up
> on the score motor needing a clean/adjustment.
>
> Did you have a manual for your pin? My manual listed the start
> sequence so I could follow things through step by step. It also
> listed what each switch on the score motor did, making it easier for
> me to diagnose where the Ax, Jx and ball stepperissueswere.
>
> Also, if the pin was in storage for a long time with the relay
> latched, it could stretch the spring - I have seen this before,
> especially with those small Gottlieb steppers. Again though, if you
> can unlatch it easy enough, I'm guessing it is a switch.
Hi Scott,
Thanks for the additional tips. I do have the manual, and have
read the area that you describe. Now the trick will be to get at those
lower stacks on the score motor. My (somewhat) local mechanic also
said that the springs on the relay itself should also be under a
slight amount of tension "upwards", in order to help the armature
return to its neutral position. I'll report back after I try the
remedies listed above.
Thanks,
David