When is a pinball "a quality tournament game" ??

[Pascal]

On the PAPA blog is a ACDC tutorial with the text "Stern’s ACDC looks like it will be a quality tournament game for years to come"

So I was thinking: when is a pinball machine a good tournament game and when not?
What machines are good tournament games? And why?? And the bad ones??

Pascal

[CEG]

imo any machine can be a good one as long as it doesn't break down.

[Les Manley]

Normally faster playing, non-marathon type games. You wouldn't want
LOTR in a tournament because you would be there forever with 4 people
playing for instance. POTC is the same way. Get 4 people playing
that game that know what they are doing and you will be there all
night long, especially with extra balls. A faster game like The
Shadow, without pop bumpers to slow the game down is a good tourney
game. Fast, not long ball times, but challenging.

[CEG]

oh yeah forgot about the long ball times on the newer machines.

[Joe S]

It's mostly about the software when choosing good tournament games,
not necessarily ball times (which can be greatly influenced by setting
the game up tough).

Games with potential score-rapes where a highly-skilled player can
just shoot the same shot over and over (left orbit on ToM) or greatly
exploit a weakness in the game's code (for instance the video mode in
Junkyard) aren't good for competitive play. Games with jackpots that
increase and carry over from game-to-game don't work well obviously
(some system 11s).

The best tournament games force the player to make shots all over the
playfield and have the right balance of risk vs. reward (riskier shots
pay off more than safe shots).

[Stu]

Oh Yeah, one more bad one....Pin•Bot has a Solar Build-Up Value that can not be reset for each game, it carries over from Game to Game....

Also Bad ar games that leave Locked Balls for multi-Ball (several games like Space Shuttle, Fathom, and many others)

Stu

[jackp...@gmail.com]

It's not so much what's good, but what's bad.
Examples of bad games usually include games with unbalanced scoring.
Bride of pinbot is bad because of the random billion shot award.
Games that might have a progressive jackpot that is huge: Big Guns, high speed,
and some other system 11's. Although some of those things can be avoided with settings, it's easier to just not use them sometimes.
Some games also have a catch-up feature that can't be turned off, bad.
Some games that are bad for head-to-head plat, might work for qualifying or high score tourneys.
As for long playing games, they can usually be made difficult enough through setup by removing posts,change to lightning flippers,and install hard rules.
one trick pony type of games are usually not favored either, who wants to watch everybody just shoot the spinner?
-DNO-

[mECHsLAVE]

I think the best modern games for tournies are games with risk/reward stacks, and several different ways to get a lot of points.

ACDC is going to continue to be really neat for tournies, because of the risk/reward of the buildup and then choosing when to cash out the points, or keep building. It's a ruleset/sound package that's not for everyone, but it's perfect for exciting tourney play.

GNR, another recent tutorial, is also a great tourney game, in that there are many different ways to get big points, most of which aren't touched on in the tutorial. Bowen actually does a pretty terrible commentary on the GNR, but I understand he's doing it as he's qualifying. A lot of misinfo and misguessing in that one, LOL. He keeps going for the main multiball, but doesn't understand how to get the SJP apparently, doesn't know which modes are lucrative, etc. However, I've played the PAPA Guns before, setup brutally with those oversize yellows on the AAM shot, and Bowen's overall score was really excellent.

[Vengeance]

On Jul 9, 10:34 am, Pascal <pascal-pinb...@telenet.be> wrote:

A good tournament game is one with multiple strategies that requires
skilful play in order to achieve a decent score.

I can see Bowens point of AC/DC being a good tournament game because
with all the different songs there are a number of different
strategies to achieve a good score, there is no one singular strategy
to get a great score and it makes you play the entire game. But
variety of available scoring opportunities is the only measure.

CFTBL makes a great tournament game, even though it has a very
singular objective in multiball. But what makes it great is the risk
vs reward involved in going after the multiball. So if you want a
monster score, you are going to go after the multiball and jackpot
multipliers, but there are other items in the game that can get you a
solid score, Things like move your car, or ramp millions.

TZ is another example of a great tournament game just because of the
variety of scoring opportunities, you can go for it all and try to
LITZ, or focus on multiballs, or try to go after the power ball.

An example of a terrible tournament game would be Champion Pub.
Reason being, it's all about the fight. But the problem is, all you
end up doing is shooting the left hole, to build up your purse value
and then locking balls so that you can double your purse value. It
comes down to a game of attrition. Who can shoot that scoop over and
over the most basically which becomes very, very tedious to play and
watch.

[Stu]

Not Good for Tournaments:
1. Games that have a "carry-over" Jackpot that can't be turned off...
2. Games that have excessive Jackpot Scoring (like BoP Millionaire Shot or BBBB 50 Million Shot)
3. Games that can be started in 2 Different ways with Different Rules (Motordome)
4. Games that are Novelty based rules (Safecracker)

Stu

[masspinballfan]

On Jul 9, 10:34 am, Pascal <pascal-pinb...@telenet.be> wrote:

No ones mentioned playing the classics (real pinball) in a tournament
format.The games move quicker and are fun yet challenging and you
don't stand around with your thumb up your butt waiting for a guy to
shoot a ramp 43 times in a row or even worse watch his ball drain
quick and think its your turn but wait he gets another chance because
the ball drained to quick!

[seymour.shabow]

Bad ones have lots of random shit in them that reward poor players with
some bullshit random award for basically sucking.

Good machines have lots of shots that take skill to achieve and rules
that reward you for knowing them and applying them.

[Jeff Rivera]

A great tournament game has to be balanced. And by balance, I mean that
all points scored are a direct result of skill and are not random. If
you make all the same shots as the person before you, your scores should
be similar. If there's too much of an element of randomness or luck, you
can still lose despite playing the better game.


--
Jeff Rivera
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[swampfire]

Based on the 2 meets we've had, RFM is the lone standout as a bad
tourney pin - for the same reason LOTR is. Ball times are way too long.


--
swampfire

[Jeff Rivera]

swampfire;1968660 Wrote:
> Based on the 2 meets we've had, RFM is the lone standout as a bad
> tourney pin - for the same reason LOTR is. Ball times are way too long.

I can agree with that, but I'd rather have an excessively long ball time
game over one that has lots of luck or random based scoring. For long
ball time games, they outlanes should be wide open and the machine
should be steep.


--
Jeff Rivera

[seymour-shabow]

On Jul 9, 6:32 pm, Jeff Rivera <jar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> swampfire;1968660 Wrote:
>
> > Based on the 2 meets we've had, RFM is the lone standout as a bad
> > tourney pin - for the same reason LOTR is. Ball times are way too long.
>
> I can agree with that, but I'd rather have an excessively long ball time
> game over one that has lots of luck or random based scoring. For long
> ball time games, they outlanes should be wide open and the machine
> should be steep.
>

And the tilts RIDICULOUSLY tight ;)

RFM is a horrible tournament game - a player can get boned easily by
another player standing at the machine watching his bonus and the
scene getting auto-selected due to timeout by the next player (guess
who this happened to.....)

[Cayle George]

Good tournament games offer interesting paths of risk and reward for
playrs, and test a wide variety of skills. The best games offer
multiple routes to scoring well with different trade offs, skill sets
and again, risk.

Games that play "long" really are not a problem, you can always make a
agame more physically difficult and bring ball taimes down. The games
that are bad have very specific score rape strategies with such
minimal risk that all other scoring avenues are obsolete.

Historically bad tournament games are games such as:

Theatre of magic: Good players can shoot the left orbit over and over,
with extremely minimal risk and score huge on bonus.

Judge Dredd: Shooting the main ramp is the highest scoring path, and
risk is low.

TOTAN: Harem by itsself, or stacked with Genie blows eveything out of
the water, is boring, and extremely imballanced.

And so on....

[jackp...@gmail.com]

> RFM is a horrible tournament game - a player can get boned easily by
> another player standing at the machine watching his bonus and the
> scene getting auto-selected due to timeout by the next player (guess
> who this happened to.....)

RFM should not time out the mode selection when set on tournament play.
I don't think it's a bad tourney game, not great though.
Needs to be set up difficult enough so that 200M is a killer score.
-DNO-

[Keith P. Johnson]

On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 15:50:31 -0700 (PDT), seymour-shabow
<seymour...@gmail.com> wrote:

>RFM is a horrible tournament game - a player can get boned easily by
>another player standing at the machine watching his bonus and the
>scene getting auto-selected due to timeout by the next player (guess
>who this happened to.....)

That is s setup issue. The timer is a setting, and a tournament that
doesn't have that turned off is not being run properly IMNSHO.

keith
--
Further fora you can reach me:
twitter: @pinballkeefer
EFNet: #pinball (keefer)
Google+: https://plus.google.com/115726305093739202394

[Frank Furhter]

Pascal wrote:
> On the PAPA blog is a ACDC tutorial with the text "Stern�s ACDC looks like it will be a quality tournament game for years to come"

>
> So I was thinking: when is a pinball machine a good tournament game and when not?
> What machines are good tournament games? And why?? And the bad ones??
>
> Pascal
>

The trend of quality for tournament is going down fast, and AC/DC is
hardly what I would call a quality tourney game at all. Its an
indication of hype, as well as garbage coming out of the factory.

[main source]

yeah sure....and dr who was such a great example or totan or JM or
checkpoint or banzai run (all one trick pony's).
those were so "uphill" lol....
many new sterns are great tourney games when set up correct.

dont comment unless you are a pro player, setup and run events
regularly, and have had lots and lots of time on each pin you cut
down.

""The trend of quality for tournament is going down fast, and AC/DC is
hardly what I would call a quality tourney game at all. Its an
indication of hype, as well as garbage coming out of the factory.

--
main source

[goatdan]

On Monday, July 9, 2012 5:42:41 PM UTC-5, Cayle George wrote:
> Good tournament games offer interesting paths of risk and reward for
> playrs, and test a wide variety of skills. The best games offer
> multiple routes to scoring well with different trade offs, skill sets
> and again, risk.
>

> Games that play &quot;long&quot; really are not a problem, you can always make a

> agame more physically difficult and bring ball taimes down. The games
> that are bad have very specific score rape strategies with such
> minimal risk that all other scoring avenues are obsolete.

This is a really good summary of half of it I think. The other half is that I think that a truly good tournament game needs to at least make it seem like even the new players have a shot at achieving something on the game and pulling off a competitive high score. That requires ensuring that no score rapes are present, while also ensuring that the set up of the game is such that it makes it difficult for any player to get a huge streak going.

If there isn't a score rape, but the top players have scores that are double what the next group of players are, it is extremely discouraging to that group of players.

> Judge Dredd: Shooting the main ramp is the highest scoring path, and
> risk is low.

The last thing is that you need to know your machines. A lot of people know that I have a JD that has been used in a tournament a LOT. I think it has been in at least three MGC tournaments. My Dredd is MEAN, and even when dialed in you cannot continually hit the left ramp without the chance of the ball coming back down. It has extremely short ball times, and has been a great tournament game. High score on it after all these tournaments is something like 350,000,000.

I owned another JD for a period with that one, and that one was the opposite. The main ramp was easy to hit, the game just felt slower, and it wasn't dangerous at all. I could regularly score 1bil or more on it.

There are certain titles like this that really matter how they play, so it's good to really look at it and see. The thing that I really like about the JD that I still have and use in tournaments is that you have to use the multiple strategy thing in it to try to determine what will pay off the best for you -- you pick the modes, or the dangerous ramp shots on it.

Here are three other really good tournament games that I have found are:

Iron Man - two major strategies (Bogies / Monger), both dangerous routes to take with different payoffs based on their difficulty.
WCS94 - Again, lots of different ways to score points (goals, cities, multiball). You have to ensure that it is very hard to achieve the multiball though, if you can easily shoot that scoop, this game becomes unbalanced. Again, know your game.
DM - If you make it tough to relight the CyroClaw, this actually becomes a very cool tournament game. I forget the exact settings, as my DM is on loan right now, but if you set it up like that, the strategy is combos, when to shoot the Claw, and if you should try relighting it.

Oh, I also completely detest games that have random things that the player cannot plan for, and because of that I actually greatly dislike games like TZ in tournament play. You can't guarantee where the powerball is each game, and it makes a big difference if it is served as the first ball or in the gumball machine. A LOT of Gottliebs rule themselves out this way too.

I find in general, the games that I like are the games that I can set up to play nasty like a tournament. Oh, and I haven't had any issue with my RFM... again, as long as it is set up hard. I like the strategy choices it gives.

[Cayle George]

The top players should have the best scores, and by a margin
commensurate with their skill. We're talking about games to play
tournaments on that determine who is the most skillful player yes?

[Noahpdavis]

Yeah - it seems to me that games with more randomness in them have a
better chance of a new player getting a high score over a highly
skilled player. I can't think of any other scenario in which the
players of high skill levels have scores lower than players who are
new.

TZ - pull a ball out of the gumball machine - Powerball is only 5
shots or less away at any given time. You can play for Powerballs,
Regular MB, or go for LITZ. No one way to a high score. Makes for a
great tournament machine.

[Dr. Dave]

I agree Tom. But you'll hear complaints about the Classics being
too random as the ball doesn't feed the flipper like the newer stuff.
I say these players need to learn to play better and learn not to rely
on a flipper feeding ramp for ball control.

DR

[goatdan]

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 3:33:51 AM UTC-5, Cayle George wrote:
> The top players should have the best scores, and by a margin

> commensurate with their skill. We&#39;re talking about games to play

> tournaments on that determine who is the most skillful player yes?

I'm talking more specifically about games where the top players will all see a very significant score bump. Not one where their scores are just higher. Usually, these are games where there is a specific goal that simply awards too many points.

For instance, if every time a top player plays a game and get scores that are double the "not top players", then it makes the people that aren't the top players less likely to keep playing in a tournament. Some games top players can end up with scores 10-20 times that of not top players. Those are *bad* tournament games, because it makes it so that the not top players feel like they don't have a shot any more.

Let's face it - if every time two people played a game, the better player won by triple the score of the other player, how long do you think that other player is going to want to keep playing?

[CEG]

It's a learning experience imo. He needs to watch the better player
and learn what he's doing so he can improve.

I've shot pool for years. I prefer to play people better than me so I
can learn some tips/tricks etc.

[goatdan]

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 10:39:05 AM UTC-5, CEG wrote:
> On Jul 12, 11:29 am, goatdan &lt;loo...@goatstore.com&gt; wrote:
> &gt; On Thursday, July 12, 2012 3:33:51 AM UTC-5, Cayle George wrote:
> &gt; &gt; The top players should have the best scores, and by a margin
> &gt; &gt; commensurate with their skill. We&amp;#39;re talking about games to play
> &gt; &gt; tournaments on that determine who is the most skillful player yes?
> &gt;
> &gt; I&#39;m talking more specifically about games where the top players will all see a very significant score bump.  Not one where their scores are just higher.  Usually, these are games where there is a specific goal that simply awards too many points.
> &gt;
> &gt; For instance, if every time a top player plays a game and get scores that are double the &quot;not top players&quot;, then it makes the people that aren&#39;t the top players less likely to keep playing in a tournament.  Some games top players can end up with scores 10-20 times that of not top players.  Those are *bad* tournament games, because it makes it so that the not top players feel like they don&#39;t have a shot any more.
> &gt;
> &gt; Let&#39;s face it - if every time two people played a game, the better player won by triple the score of the other player, how long do you think that other player is going to want to keep playing?
>
> It&#39;s a learning experience imo. He needs to watch the better player
> and learn what he&#39;s doing so he can improve.
>
> I&#39;ve shot pool for years. I prefer to play people better than me so I

> can learn some tips/tricks etc.

Okay, I guess I should add this to the example.

Every time you play a game, you have to wager $5.00. Is it worth the learning experience now to be constantly completely annihilated when there is money involved?

I think that on a truly good tournament machine, you end up with scores where the not-as-good player always feels that there was a way that he or she could have won. It might even be an illusion about how close you really were, but people are a lot more compelled to better their game when they feel like there is a chance that it could actually pay off.

To me, the most addictive games are like that - If the game that I just played is 80% the grand champion score, I'm far more likely to drop more coin in it than if my score is 10% the grand champion score.

[masspinballfan]

On Jul 12, 9:53 am, "Dr. Dave" <davidsarc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I agree Tom.    But you'll hear complaints about the Classics being
> too random as the ball doesn't feed the flipper like the newer stuff.
> I say these players need to learn to play better and learn not to rely
> on a flipper feeding ramp for ball control.
>
> DR
>
> On Jul 9, 1:06 pm, masspinballfan <tallguynm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>

> Exactly Doc!

Do you want to play tee ball where the ball sits on front of you on a
golden platter
( ramp games) or swing for the fences on a 90 mile per hour fastball
from a live pitcher (classic games)!!

[Noahpdavis]

On Jul 12, 6:53 am, "Dr. Dave" <davidsarc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I agree Tom.    But you'll hear complaints about the Classics being
> too random as the ball doesn't feed the flipper like the newer stuff.
> I say these players need to learn to play better and learn not to rely
> on a flipper feeding ramp for ball control.

I haven't heard that complaint at any events I've been to. I think
it's expected that classics be more random. The thing I DO hear
people complaining about is a modern machine that's been basterdized
to the point of being like a coin flip EM. Or a mini flipper EM w/ a
hair tilt. Like a Stern Avatar/Stones with a sketchy feed from the
pops and no outlanes and a hair trigger tilt.

Also, I'm not sure which players you're talking about - looking at
PAPA Classics results. A lot of the names winning/showing in the
classics are also modern A division finalists.

Sure - there are definitely players who are good at nudging and some
who are good at hitting a ramp a zillion times in a row . . . to be a
top player, you've really gotta be solid in all areas.

One of the reasons I like the early SS games. Here's my opinion on
how those theoretical matchups can work -

A relative noob has more of a chance of beating a "DMD Expert" when
playing an early SS. However, if the expert they're playing knows how
to nudge and has a solid flipper skillset on that era of game, the
noobs chances diminish by a ton. Flip it the other way around. A
noob plays an early SS expert on a DMD game - they're chances of
winning are much lower as IMO the flipper skills translate forward
better than they do backward. Just my opinion though.

[Noahpdavis]

To give a few examples of tournament games I think are worthy -

Early SS
Paragon
Frontier
Firepower
Stars
HG
EBD
Jungle Lord
Sorcerer (outlane posts and center post gone)

Sys11
Whirlwind
High Speed (with Fixed Jackpot rom)
Taxi (with the right jackpot settings)
F14

Modern
TZ
WCS
Jackbot
Fish Tails
Getaway
BSD
Creature
Monster Bash
AFM
Tron
IM

[masspinballfan]

Good points but a noob is still learning how to play pinball and with
a ramp game there is a safe haven to keeping good ball in play time by
shooting The ramp shot repetitively and knowing the ball will end up
feeding the flippers every time. With a game like say Flash for
example a noob won' t last long anyway.

Plus this thread is about tournament games and to me if I'm putting my
money on the table I want games where the playing field is even and
with a classic game be it an EM or early SS (without ramps) I feel
everyone has an equal chance to win and real pinball skills will
decide that in the end on classic tables.

[Gregg]

In article <34b5b3f6-dda8-4d2b...@googlegroups.com>,

That's why you have divisions in tournaments

--
Gregg in Baltimore

[AlbanyPinhead]

Agree on all counts :^)

Ron...

[G]

I'm no playah but shouldn't the best players be the best on anything
that is thrown at them? If not then then todays best players are
primarily The Grand Poobah Millennium Ramp Kings and as stated above
there are other divisions. Did I get it correct?

[masspinballfan]

Lol George on the GPMRK.

Sounds like a promo for a new t shirt.

Always wondered when you shop out a ramp game do you bring in your
local DPW department to fill in the potholes and repave those ramps?

[G]

No Tom. Funny hats. ;-)

[jonny o]

goatdan;1969891 Wrote:
>
>
> Let's face it - if every time two people played a game, the better
> player won by triple the score of the other player, how long do you
> think that other player is going to want to keep playing?

I think that's best handled by divisions and good anti-sandbag rules.


--
jonny o

[seymour.shabow]

goatdan wrote:
>
> Let's face it - if every time two people played a game, the better player won by triple the score of the other player, how long do you think that other player is going to want to keep playing?

Until they get good enough to beat them.

[goatdan]

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 5:44:51 PM UTC-5, Jonny O wrote:
> goatdan;1969891 Wrote:
> &gt;
> &gt;
> &gt; Let&#39;s face it - if every time two people played a game, the better
> &gt; player won by triple the score of the other player, how long do you
> &gt; think that other player is going to want to keep playing?
>
> I think that&#39;s best handled by divisions and good anti-sandbag rules.

But those are really, really hard to put in place so they work in all cases. There is one guy who came into our tournament one year, legitimately had never played in a tournament so he got put into the B division (I knew him personally - he also rarely played pinball). Then, he proceeded to take the number 1 score overall on the first two machines that he played.

Some discussion was had, and he was pushed into the A division because of it. For the rest of the weekend, he didn't put up another score that touched those scores, and I believe didn't make the final cut for the A division finals, where he would have definitely qualified for B.

Just like in poker, there is definitely a component of luck that factors into tournaments, but I also feel that if you play someone who is really better than you, they should win probably 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Anyway, this actually went to a different spot then I meant it to. My point was that if there is a game where top players scores are disproportionately higher than everyone else, it definitely doesn't encourage more play. The game that we had issues with this on was NBAFB one year. There is a little more to this story, and part of it was our fault, but the scores went something like this...

528
495
486
473
413
393
68
59
57
...

When a game has a scoring discrepancy like that, it definitely discourages people from feeling like they have a shot at one of the top scores. That's all that I'm suggesting is avoided. Even if a large percentage of people on here say they would want to keep playing until they got a better score, your average person playing that particular game didn't feel that way at all.

Once those scores were put up, a lot of people thought of NBAFB as a lost cause, and focused everywhere else where the scores were a lot closer. In the end, we had two NBAFBs and only one of every other machine, and we sold almost double the entries on every other machine than we did on NBAFB.

[Cayle George]

Stop hijacking this thread dan.

The OP never asked "How do I make new players feel like they are good
at pinball when they are, in fact, inexperienced."

-cAyle

[phishrace]

On Jul 13, 1:10 pm, goatdan <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote:
> Anyway, this actually went to a different spot then I meant it to.  My point was that if there is a game where top players scores are disproportionately higher than everyone else, it definitely doesn't encourage more play.  The game that we had issues with this on was NBAFB one year.  There is a little more to this story, and part of it was our fault, but the scores went something like this...
>
> 528
> 495
> 486
> 473
> 413
> 393
> 68
> 59
> 57
> ...
>
> When a game has a scoring discrepancy like that, it definitely discourages people from feeling like they have a shot at one of the top scores.

Scoring gaps like that are rare. Look at the machine scores from PAPA
last year:

http://www.papa.org/papa14/live/topA.html
(A division)

http://www.papa.org/papa14/live/topB.html

http://www.papa.org/papa14/live/topC.html

-phish

[Bowen Kerins]

> But those are really, really hard to put in place so they work in all cases. There is one guy who came into our tournament one year, legitimately had never played in a tournament so he got put into the B division (I knew him personally - he also rarely played pinball). Then, he proceeded to take the number 1 score overall on the first two machines that he played.
>
> Some discussion was had, and he was pushed into the A division because of it.

This doesn't seem like the right decision at all to me. This is like saying "you should have sucked more so you could still play B". In general I feel it is important to have solid, understandable reasons for placing someone in a division, then stick to them -- and if a player outperforms their expectations, terrific! They can win and play A next time, and will actually want to do so. For this player, his good performance was a punishment.

[Jim B]

I set the maximum combos to 10 for SWE1. Above that, the ramps become too
high scoring compared to the rest of the game.
"goatdan" <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote in message
news:bdabbac0-1223-4224...@googlegroups.com...

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ne...@netfront.net ---

[DRDAVE]

I'll add to your description with: "Grand Poobah Rampathon" = )