EM tech: 500 not scoring 500

[FredMaine]

I've got a Gottlieb Hot Shot (4 player) and it's got the classic problem of only scoring 300 or 400 when it should score 500. This happens on all players which I think is significant.

Another machine I have, a single player, had this issue a number of years ago. A 50-point hit would score less. If I remember correctly it had something to do with the 10 point relay; a switch adjustment there took care of it. For 50 points, when the score motor pulsed the 10-point relay 5 times, it correctly scored after that adjustment.

That was a simple case. On the Hot Shot though, being a 4-player, in the circuits for the score relays, there are switches on two other relays, Z1 and Z2 I think, and also some switches on the player unit involved as well.

Since the issue happens on all players - can I assume that none of that other stuff is the issue, but that it must be the 100-point relay, just like the other machine?

I haven't been able to get into the back of the Hot Shot so I'm speaking generally here, but I hope to look at it soon.

Fred

[Kerry Imming]

"FredMaine" <fred....@roadrunner.com> wrote in message
news:38d3fdfd-7fbb-4e38...@googlegroups.com...

My guess is that the G (500 PT) relay is not holding in until the end of
score motor cycle like it should.

Tighten/Clean/Adjust the following switches:
1. N.C. switch on Bonus Score (Q) relay with green and white-blue wires
2. N.C. switch on Outhole (O) relay with white-blue and blue wires
3. N.O. switch on 500 PT (G) relay with blue and yellow wires
4. N.C. SCORE MOTOR switch 2B with yellow and red-white wires.

- Kerry

[FredMaine]

Many thanks Kerry. I hope to get to this machine before the weekend, I'll post back.
Fred

[FredMaine]

Kerry,

I'm thinking your instructions are for a different game because D is my
500 relay, but no matter; operation is the same and I understand.

I've cleaned/checked the switches on the 500 point and 100 point relays.
They look good as far as I can tell. Tightened the screws there too as
I went along.

The related score motor switch was hard to find as I couldn't read wire
colors well, but I found it by elimination, blocking 5-pulse switches
with paper until the scoring stopped. That one also looked ok.

The issue definitely affects all players the same, I've verified that.

And, I discovered that anything 100 points - there are a couple of fixed
bulls-eye targets that score 100 for example - those work exceedingly
well. I can quickly tap it once or hold it down a few seconds, and only
100 is scored, no rattle or vibrating of the reels.

But - it doesn't matter if the score motor pulses 5 or if I tap the
100's target 5 times fast ... the scoring screws up.

I can even hit the pop bumper skirt once, or several times slowly, it's
fine. But I quickly hit it pop-pop-pop-pop, it scores too few.

Speed seems to be the issue, even if the 500 relay or score motor is not
involved.

Does that seem to indicate something? I'm thinking even though the M
100's relay switches look ok, it must be there. Spring maybe.

Fred


--
FredMaine
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[Kerry Imming]

"FredMaine" <fred....@roadrunner.com> wrote in message

news:FredMain...@rrgparchive.com...

The job of the EOS (ON ADD) switches on the score reels is to make sure the
relay stays energized long enough that the score is reliably advanced. Does
this happen on every player or just one? An EOS switch stuck closed should
only effect one player.

- Kerry

[FredMaine]

Definitely all players.

[dmarston]

FredMaine;2069805 Wrote:
> I've got a Gottlieb Hot Shot (4 player) and it's got the classic problem
> of only scoring 300 or 400 when it should score 500. This happens on

> all players which I think is significant....
> Fred

For problems like this, I use a test light that lights up on 24 volts.
There are
commercial units that work on a good range (20-50? don't remember
exactly)
in the electrical department of some hardware stores. You can use it to
look
at the 5 individual pulses or watch how long the 500 point relay stays
on.
................David Marston


--
dmarston

[Kerry Imming]

"FredMaine" <fred....@roadrunner.com> wrote in message
news:FredMain...@rrgparchive.com...
>

> Definitely all players.
>

Wow, my apologies for giving you some bad information.

> An EOS switch stuck closed should only effect one player.

The error in my statement is that your issue is with the 100 PT relay not
locking in. ANY of the score reel EOS switches stuck open will prevent the
relay from locking in. Follow the chain of serial EOS (ON ADD) switches on
the schematic and tighten/clean/adjust all four.

- Kerry

[FredMaine]

Wow now that you say it, I think that must be it.

I verified it was happening on all players by playing games.

But my test on manually tapping then holding a 100's switch was only
done on player one. I'll check all four EOS switches but I bet if I did
that test on each, it would indicate which EOS is open all the time.

I will be near the machine later this morning and will have a look.

Fred

[FredMaine]

Oh yeah, that was it alright. One of the 100's EOS switches has lost a
point completely.

I'm sure it will be fine once I dig around and find a replacement.

As always thanks for your help.

[FredMaine]

Well. Back again. When I found the missing point on the EOS switch, I
was mistaken about it being relevant. When I looked at it again to
consider fixing it, I relaized that it was the 1000's EOS, not the
100's. I forgot the 1's place is a fake and miscounted from the back.
All of the 100's EOS switches are Ok.

So - I still have the issue.

Since then I have looked this over more carefully.

Knowing it happens on all four players helps. It has to be in a common
unit or wire, otherwise it must be in all four player's 100 steppers
which seems unlikely.

I looked at the player unit anyway because even though a different
switch (P1C, P2C, P3C, P4C) brings the 100's pulse to a different
player, there is a common wire from all four PU switches, back to a
switch on M (100 point relay). But that unit, those C switches, and the
common wire, is fine.

I even jumpered around the wire from the player unit common on C
switches to the M relay in case there was an intermitant break in the
wire. It's fine.

I looked carefully at the circuit involving relay D (500 point relay).
I didn't think it was the trouble anyway, because I can replicate the
problem myself simply by hitting a 100 switch rapidly. So I know that
the 500 point relay and the related pulsing score motor switch wasn't
the trouble. But I checked.

That works fine. D pulls in, and stays in until the end of the score
motor cycle when 2B opens and releases the lock; the 100s relay M pulses
exactly five times every time.

So, since this happens to all players, I figure there are two things
left and we've covered them previously in this discussion.

Switches on the 100's relay M, and possibly an open EOS switch on one or
more of the 100 stepper units.

The EOS's check out. In fact to test, I tied the EOS's on three of the
players closed with jumper wires, then tested using the other player.
No difference, issue still exists even when EOSs are shorted closed.

So - on the 100's relay M, I adjusted both the lock-in switch, and the
switch that sends the pulse to the add-100's stepper(s). Brought them
in so close they were barely open, and then so open they would barely
close, and then tried some in between as well.

No difference; the issue still exists. I must say that while adjusting
those, I got it at one point so that it scored correctly more often that
not, but never reliably.

I am utterly stumped. If I had another relay to swap with M I'd do it,
just to see if a different set of M switches would make a difference.

[FredMaine]

There are a couple more things to look at it seems. I have a partial
schematic with me right now but I'm not at the machine.

One, I haven't considered the spring and mechanical movement of the M
relay. Yes, it pulses five times when D fires, as it should, but since
timing seems to be the issue maybe the spring and/or armature hinge are
keeping it from pulling in all the way when fired rapidly. I'm not sure
how likely it is to be the solution but I will look at it when I'm at
the machine again.

Two, there is one other switch in series with the PU switches and the M
switch that fires the score steppers. I have not touched it yet,
thinking it couldn't be involved.

It's a switch on the R relay which is a make/break. It's something to
do with reset sequence apparently, but must be closed all during play.
Maybe that switch is dirty.

Now, I can see by the schematic that it would also affect all scoring -
10's, 100's, 1000's, 10k's - but then again none of those ever fire
rapidly during play. So if the issue is only seen during rapid scoring,
as this is, it would only be apparent on the 100's.

Rapid firing of score steppers also happens during reset of course, but
not via M and R, as it is during play. So if R was dirty then reset
would not be affected.

I'm putting money on that R switch right now because (I think) if it was
M then the reset would be funky too - but it's not.

But I've been wrong plenty :)

[timne...@gmail.com]

I had a problem with a Ball Bowler simular to what you're
describing where it had problems scoring 30 point after making
3 consecutive strikes. The contact in the 10-90 Relay looked to be
adjusted properly, but after spacing them out a bit more, (actually more
than normal), it worked fine. The contact was vibrating and disrupting
the pattern. After changing the return spring, I adjusted the contact
back to a normal spacing, and all was fine. The Bowler was on location
so the spacing did the trick for a quick temporary fix. Busy day, I haven't
read this entire post, but I'm sure that you double checked the contacts
off the score motor's cam. (T)

[FredMaine]

Yeah I did clean the score motor switch where it gets the five-count
pulse but I was pretty sure that wasn't it; because I can tap a
playfield 100-point target rapidly and it still mis-counts. That
doesn't involve the score motor at all.

[timne...@gmail.com]

Oh I see, I didn't read that part that you must have already
mentioned about tapping the 100s point switch. I don't have many
Gottlieb multi-player schematics, but it does sound as though it
may have to do with the way the 100-900 point relay is performing.
My guess would be the return spring is too weak before too tight,
or if there's any other contact/contacts besides the ones off the
score motor's cam in that circuitry.

[CactusJack]

Even though you think it can't be, it could still be the score reel
steppers themselves. There are two items that can effect how the reel
moves (or doesn't move fast enough).

One is the anti-backup blade. There is a small silver blade that rests
up against the ratchets under the plastic score reel drum itself. The
blade prevents the score reel from going backwards after it has been
pushed forward. Something it wants to do due to drag on the mechanism.
These blades often get bent when people clean their score reel. Wiping
with a rage back and forth will damage the blade and prevent it from
resting on the plastic. If the reel doesn't sit in the proper location,
it may not get advanced upon the next solenoid step.

Second, is the ability for the score reel itself to move freely. In
this case, snap into position after being pushed by the return spring of
the solenoid ratchet. Unless you have completely disassembled, cleaned
and relubricated all 16 score reels, all 16 score reels are in the same,
old, gunked up condtion after some 40 years of sitting.

Both of the above often don't cause an issue for a single slow advance
of the score reel, but when the attempt is to quickly step something 5
times, it can be a problem.

Which brings up another point. Do you know if you have a 60 or 50 Cycle
Score motor. Many Gottleib games were re-imports from Germany and
therefore, have 50 cycle motors. These games "Count" much faster.
Almost too fast for the worn, tired assemblies to keep up (although your
quick taps of the 100 point spot targets tend to rule this out). There
was someone that posted a YouTube video a while back and it was obvious
to many of us, it was a 50 cycle motor making his game "Faster" than his
others. The funny thing was he was complaining about the other games
where were "slower" when in fact, they were the correct speed.

What Dave suggested with the "TEST" bulb is an excellent idea. You can
build one yourself with any 24V lamp and a cut aligator test lead. Clip
it to the coils and see what the "ON" pulses look like. First at the
Relay, even though you say it counts 5 times every time, the pulses may
not be long enough for it to do a good job. This is where the Series of
EOS switches should come in to insure a solid pulse/closure/lock of the
100 point relay. Then move to the score reel solenoid itself and watch
to see if you are getting 5 pulses and what the duration of those pulses
looks like.

Other things to check are the points in the blades themselves. Even
though it may be held in the blade, it may not be stamped very tightly
any more. This can cause weak connections even though you have
burnished and adjusted the points. You may want to re-crimp them with a
pair of needle nose pliers. Also, check for bad solders to the lugs of
the switch blades. It has been discussed here before where the tech has
found the wire still soldered to the blade, but in fact, has found that
the nickel plating on the blade is no longer part of the blade. So, the
wire is attached, but moves around within the hole. Cold solders as
well as broken wires just barely touching can also be found on those
solid wire jumpers that connect one lug to another directly above,
below, or diagonally from blade to blade.

By the way, do you hear 5 distinct hits of the 100 point bell chime?
This can tell us how well the 100 point action is happening (although
you could have bell troubles too).

RB


--
CactusJack

[FredMaine]

RB, I agree it might be the steppers but since it happens on all four
players it seems very unlikely to me. Remember also that reset to 0
works fine at game beginning, on all reels.

One thing you mentioned was the bells. No, I do not get 5 clear bells
now that you mention it. But, that is controlled by a switch on the
100's relays as is the pulse to the PU for steppers. I haven't checked
that switch. But it could also indicate a problem with the 100's relay
M, which does seem likely at this point.

50 or 60 cycle - I really don't know but the red wire is on 'normal' and
not 'high tap' if that helps. In any case the rest of the game works as
usual.

Thanks.


--
FredMaine

[FredMaine]

Ok, I shorted the switch on R (hold) that is in series with M and the PU
switches, so I know it was securely closed as it should be. No
difference in the scoring problem, so I'm back to thinking it must be
the M 100's relay, perhaps a mechanical problem since I've poured over
the switches so many times. I will look at that tonight or tomorrow
morning.

Blast.

[CactusJack]

Starting to sound like it is something to do with the 100 point relay
itself. If you get the feel for it, normally, when you go to manually
engage a score relay (10,100,1000), the armature will actually pull away
from your finger tip and fully engage, and then drop out again. This is
the hold circuit (hold switch on relay and EOSs on score reels). The
instant the hold contacts connect, this completes the circuit to the
score relay to close and hold. As was explained, this then energizes
everything else like the Step Up Coil and the bell chime coil (and
things like the match unit). When the score reel solenoid opens the
EOS, the hold circuit drops out and you might feel the armature release
back against your finger. This will only happen when the game is in
normal game play, not in game over. It more often than not, will also
give you that Machine Gun effect if you find the sweet spot with your
finger that makes it oscillate on and off very quickly.

Try it on the other score relays and see if you can "feel" this action
happening. Then confirm it on the 100 point relay. If the relay
doesn't get a good solid energizing, short pulses will not translate to
bells or score step up. You can also find what each contact on the
score relay does just by shorting it out with a small flat head screw
driver (or like I do, with my metal needle file). Find the Hold contact
(the one that makes the relay pull in) and make sure it closes early in
the travel. If the rest of the hold circuit is good, this will insure a
good solid on-time of the whole system.

Another "trick", while not always fool proof, is to look for big blue
sparks. They often times indicate a contact that is still not passing
full current and needs a good cleaning or resurfacing. Of course, a BIG
blue spark can also mean something out there is drawing too much current
(like a melted Bell Chime Coil or a Step Up coil on a Bally or Williams
Match Unit). This can rob the other coils from the needed power.

Good Luck with your repair. Big/Hot Shot is one of my all time favorites
from the old days. Still haven't gotten mine put together yet. Its
awaiting a nice, NOS, clear coated playfield swap.

RB


--
CactusJack

[Kerry Imming]

"CactusJack" <reinh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:CactusJa...@rrgparchive.com...

Well, I'm stumped. What happens if you hit 10 point scores real fast, does
it keep up with those?

- Kerry

[FredMaine]

> What happens if you hit 10 point scores real fast, does
it keep up with those?

Well the short answer is, yes it does, perfectly.

But the test was interesting.

At first I thought it best if the score more did the pulsing so I ran a jumper from the 10's relay to the switch on the 500's D relay that normally fires 100. Yeah I should have disconnected the 100, but I figured they could fire together.

Well, they both scored too little. Clearly the two coils wired in parallel steal something from each other. * see below

So I removed that, and instead used my push-button with alligator clips on the other end. Hooked to a ten-point switch on the playfield. I did this so I could get a good tap-tap-tap-tap-tap without interference from rubber etc. Well that worked very well, 50 every time, as fast as I could tap.

* Now it's worth remembering that the 100 scores too little even when I do the same tap test with my button, on the 100's. Otherwise you'd be ready to blame the score motor pulse or something in that circuit, based on the jumper test above.

[FredMaine]

Is my logic wrong?

Maybe I -should- unsolder the 100's wire from the D 500-point relay, and solder a 10's wire to it, and do that test.

Or is the fact that I can replicate the issue with my test botton on the 100's, but not the 10's - an indication that it's not a problem with D or the score motor?

[FredMaine]

I haven't been able to do the above test but in the meantime, swapped
springs with other relays to rule that out; no change.


--
FredMaine

[CEG]

have you cleaned all of these contact switches and are they gapped
properly? any loose switch stacks?

[FredMaine]

Yeah all that's been checked.

[timne...@gmail.com]

Lets see,,, the score reels all reset okay, and quickly tapping
a 100s target switch, the score reel doesn't keep up...
One time I had a contact that I kinda over cleaned because
it was not doing it's job. After seperating it from the switch
stack, I could see a tiny pit dead center. I changed both it
and it's mating contact, and the problem was solved. I don't have
a schematic, but if there's not other contacts in that circuitry,
seems as though it would be in that 100-900 point relay...
The only other thing is if you're tapping faster than the sore
motor would be paulsing the 100-900 point relay, thus seems as though
the score motor's contact is not the problem...
Did you say that the chime/bell does or does not ring 5 times?

[timne...@gmail.com]

I knew I was missing something, but it just wasn't dawning on me and
just hit me. Have you once again checked the Player-step-up-Unit?
The circuitry has to go through that. Because it's all 4 players,
my guess would be the wiper. Dirty/loose/bad rivot. But can't rule
out the bricket (Circuit) Board.

[CactusJack]

mopar cuda;2072956 Wrote:
>
> I knew I was missing something, but it just wasn't dawning on me and
> just hit me. Have you once again checked the Player-step-up-Unit?
> The circuitry has to go through that. Because it's all 4 players,
> my guess would be the wiper. Dirty/loose/bad rivot. But can't rule
> out the bricket (Circuit) Board.

FYI, On a 70's Gottlieb Multiplayer, the score is distributed through
cam driven switch stacks, not lots of wipers like on a Bally or Williams
from the same era. So, while the source of the pulse is the same, it
goes through 4 different switches, one for each player. Which should
kind of rule out the player unit unless there is a bad connection where
the wire from the 100 point relay first hits the first set of switches
on the player unit.

RB


--
CactusJack

[FredMaine]

About the player unit, this one doesn't have wipers but has the separate
cams with switch stacks on them. Since the 500-point issue happens to
all players, I've pretty much decided that the player unit can't be the
trouble. There are common wires on it though, so I bypassed that with a
jumper wire and nothing improved. So, I don't think it's the player
unit at all.

If I understand you correctly, by 100-900 point relay, I think you mean
the M (100-point relay). I also suspect that relay, mostly.

That's why I think I will swap a few wires and make the 10's relay turn
the 100 score stepper. Since the 10's work fine, if I can make that
relay drive the 100's score, and if it works, then I can definitely
blame the M 100-point relay - even though I have checked and doubled
checked the switches.

Yes, most times it doesn't ring the 100's bell 5 times. There is a
single switch on the 100's relay that rings the bell. Unfortuately that
doesn't (necessarily) mean that the relay doesn't pulse 5 times. It
could be a separate problem with the beel switch. But - it does seem
to, again, point to the M 100's relay as the problem.

[timne...@gmail.com]

I see. I worked on a bunch of Wedge heads, but the multi players
have been mostly Ballys...
Yes, I do mean the 100s relay. 100-900 is expressed with Bowlers.
I was just wondering, if you put a tiny screw driver between the
bottom blades that activate the hundreds score reels and twisted it
back and forth, if the score reel would keep up.

[FredMaine]

Well, I used my push-button tester with alligator clips instead of a
screwdriver so I could be more precise. I was a little dubious because
there's no EOS involved but yes, the score reel (player 1, in this case)
kept up very well. No doubt the other players would too; the problem
happens to all players.

When I do the same test with my button, energizing the 100's relay
itself instead, it fails.

I'm convinced more than ever that it's just the switches on the M 100's
relay regardless of how good the switches there -appear- to work.

Maybe it's time to just take the stacks apart and really look at the
switches and points. I've been avoiding that, afraid I'd make it worse.

[FredMaine]

RB I wanted to respond to you, yes that's exactly right. I had ruled
out the player unit too for those same reasons.

There is the one common wire though, that hops across the four related
player switches, then passes through a switch on R, then goes on to the
scoring switch on M (100). To make sure that the closed R switch or any
of that common wire was not the problem, I jumped pass all of it with a
wire.

[timne...@gmail.com]

Yeah, if push buttoning the M relay and got good pulses yet the
score reels didn't keep up, but yet kept up when push buttoning the
individsual contact, seems no dought, the contact...
Way back, I had a problem where I was scratching my head, and finally
took the switch stack apart, and in between the insulators a blade had
a hair line crack. Not thinking that problem lays in your case, but
have to believe like you say, it's in the contact.

[FredMaine]

Yeah I'm resolved now to take it apart, because when I hit the 500's
relay, it seems to me that the 100's relay does pulse 5 times, although
it's hard to tell. I'll report back.

[FredMaine]

Reporting back.

I disassembled the 100's point M relay. Cleaned all the switches with
diluted simple green; then with isopropyl alcohol. Went over them
lightly with a burnishing tool, then washed them again. All look very
good except for some minor pitting and I've seen worse.

Took the armature off, cleaned it, and the ladder too. Some indents on
the bottom of the armature but nothing major. Re-assembled all of that.
Armature action looks to be working very good.

Re-adjusted the switches, first the top (long) blades to make sure they
weren't lifting on the ladder with pressure. Then the bottom blades,
all about 1/32" gapped.

Still, the same problem. All the tests previsously discussed, have the
same results: using a test button with alligator leads I can simulate
the problem by hitting a 100's playfield switch 5 times fast, or by
hitting a 500's playfield switch once (which uses the score motor).

The 100's unit works perfectly when scoring just 100 regardless of how
long the playfield switch is closed; and also during reset when setting
up a game, the steppers advance beautifully.

But, what should score 500 scores 200-400. All players.

For all the reasons already stated - including that this happens to all
players not just one, and also that I can duplicate the problem without
using the score motor - I do not believe the score motor, 500's relay
circuit, or the player unit is the trouble.

Now I am stumped even more than before, and I was already totally
stumped before.

What sort of sledge hammer can I hit this with now? There is nothing
missing or broken so this is resolvable, surely.

I do not have a spare AG relay, nor very many spare switches.

The 1000's L relay has an identical set of 5 N/O switches, I'm
considering unsoldering the whole caboodle and swapping the 100's and
1000's --- just to see what happens.

Fred

[FredMaine]

I haven't but I will now that you've mentioned it. I did check to see
of the armature was magnetized; it's not.

[Scott McClure]

Fred, I thought you had a motor switch issue here, but obviously, you've
checked that. You've checked everything I can think of, but one thing
occured to me.

Have you checked the coil itself to make sure it's the correct
resistance and is strong enough to pull in good and make good contact
with the switches?

I highly doubt that's it, but it's about the only thing I can see here
that hasn't been checked.


--
Scott McClure

[timne...@gmail.com]

And I was just thinking, have you manually tried tapping the
100s relay five times relatively the same speed as the score
motor would pules it?

[FredMaine]

Yes, I have a pair of wires with alligator clips on one end, and a
push-button on the other. I attached that to a 100-point target, and
can press the button five times at about the same speed as the score
motor does it; the problem occurs. That's what makes me sure that the
trouble is not the score motor - although, I did check the 1A switch,
which is the 5-pulse from the score motor.


--
FredMaine

[timne...@gmail.com]

Oh, Sorry, I thought that you hot wired the push button to the M Relay and
energized the M relay 5 times itself, and it got 5 good impulses
which made me think that it was the induvisual set of contacts which
energizes the 100s score reel. So now, we're not 100% sure that the
M relay gets 5 strong impulses. Is that where it stands now? That's why
I was wondering if manually tapping the M relay 5 times, if the score
reel would keep up.

[Scott McClure]

Like I said, I suspected a motor switch or the relay right off the
start, since it happens on all four players, it has to be something that
is common to all four, which is why I didn't think it was the reels
themselves. If it was just one, then RB's idea about the anti reverse
blade would be the culprit, because I had that happen on a Gottlieb
single player-the reel wouldn't score properly because it was out of
adjustment and it would try backing up and would only score 300 or 400.
I got that blade adjusted and it works perfectly.

Since you've done all the switches on that relay, all I could come up
with was the coil itself. Maybe it just isn't pulling in strongly
enough or something. That's nothing more than just a wild guess, but
who knows?


--
Scott McClure

[FredMaine]

On the advice of a friend I've decided to next swap the 100's relay coil
only, with the 1000's relay coil. If the trouble goes away for 100's,
I'll know it's the coil. While I have it unsoldered and 'on the bench'
I will test it. Is it enough to see what resitance I get from it? And,
what should that be for an A-9735?


--
FredMaine

[Scott McClure]

FredMaine;2074800 Wrote:
> On the advice of a friend I've decided to next swap the 100's relay coil
> only, with the 1000's relay coil. If the trouble goes away for 100's,
> I'll know it's the coil. While I have it unsoldered and 'on the bench' I
> will test it. Is it enough to see what resitance I get from it? And,
> what should that be for an A-9735?

Clay's guides list it as 15 ohms of resistance. If you're anywhere in
that ballpark you're probably fine. That's a lot stronger coil that
things like hold relay coils since it's not a coil that is on all the
time, so it can be a lot lower resistance.

I highly doubt it's the coil. It's just a shot in the dark because
you've tried about everything else. But it won't hurt to try it.


--
Scott McClure

[FredMaine]

Thanks Scott. I agree it's unlikely but I'll try it anyway.


--
FredMaine

[CactusJack]

Back to the EOS hold in circuit. You state that you "tested" the
switches but you haven't really indicated if you tested the circuit for
proper function. At least, not how I understand reading your posts.

To do this, put it at player #1 (1st ball, 1st player) and unsolder one
of the wires to the Player 1 hundreds step up coil on the score reel.
Then, activate one of your 100 point switches and see if the 100 point
relay pulls in and stays in. It should remain energized until you
manually move the score reel plunger in to open the EOS. If it does
work, try again and start smacking all the 100 point score reels and
even tapping on the back box insert to insure the circuit holds no
matter what the vibration.

As you understand, an open anywhere in that circuit will effect ALL 4
players.

RB


--
CactusJack

[timne...@gmail.com]

Yes, one dirty EOS could do it. Also it would seem it could be a
prong in one of the plug ins that's not clean or not 100% seated.
Either way, I'm thinking the coil isn't getting all of it's voltage.

[FredMaine]

I tested the EOS switches by being on player 1, ball 1, then closing the
EOS switches for players 2-4 with alligator clip jumpers; if a dirty or
otherwise open 2-4 player EOS were the problem, the issue would have
gone away during the test.

Then, moved on to player 2 and tied EOS's for 1,3,4 with jumpers, and so
on.

Problem persisted, so I removed EOS's from consideration.


--
FredMaine

[timne...@gmail.com]

Fred, I'm sure that you have already done this, but what happens when
you actually tap the M relay with your finger at around the same speed
as the score motor would pulse it. Does the score reels keep up then?

[CactusJack]

FredMaine;2074876 Wrote:
> I tested the EOS switches by being on player 1, ball 1, then closing the
> EOS switches for players 2-4 with alligator clip jumpers; if a dirty or
> otherwise open 2-4 player EOS were the problem, the issue would have
> gone away during the test.
>
> Then, moved on to player 2 and tied EOS's for 1,3,4 with jumpers, and so
> on.
>
> Problem persisted, so I removed EOS's from consideration.

That still isn't testing the "hold circuit". Its just ruling out each
individual switch. You need to confirm that when the 100 point score
relay is energized, it stays energized until one of the EOS switches
opens up. This can only be done if you STOP the score reel(s) from
opening up the circuit (ie, unsolder one wire from the coil of the score
reel step up).

Obviously, a few of us are stumped (along with you) as to exactly what
is causing your problem. And there is no substitute for actually being
there and getting our hands dirty working with the machine. So, our
suggestions are to help rule certain things out, not just eliminating a
part of the circuit.

RB


--
CactusJack

[FredMaine]

RB, understood. Even if this turns out to be something simple and right
under my nose, I expect to learn something from this process :)

I have not actually done that, no. For some reason that escapes me now
I was reasoning that the lock-in was good; when I get back to the
machine I will test that.

mopar cuda, about tapping the relay, I assume you mean pushing the
armature down until the lock-in takes it, I have done that. I don't
remember trying to pulse it though. I will also try that.


--
FredMaine

[timne...@gmail.com]

Yeah Fred. I was just thinking if you manually pulse the M relay with
your Finger, I'm thinking the score reels will keep up, which would
absolutely tell us that the M relay doesn't have strong pulses.
If this does prove to be the case, then we can hot wire your push button
directly to the M relay and see if that pulses it okay.
You are good at what you do. This is just one of those strange problems
that now and then you're bound to run into.

[FredMaine]

I actually did run the M relay directly with my button; I think :) but
I'll try it again as well.

I will be back at the machine this evening, later.

Fred

[Albert Decker]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 11:28:08 AM UTC-4, Reinhard wrote:

> Back to the EOS hold in circuit. You state that you "tested" the switches but you haven't really indicated if you tested the circuit for proper function. At least, not how I understand reading your posts. To do this, put it at player #1 (1st ball, 1st player) and unsolder one of the wires to the Player 1 hundreds step up coil on the score reel. Then, activate one of your 100 point switches and see if the 100 point relay pulls in and stays in. It should remain energized until you manually move the score reel plunger in to open the EOS. If it does work, try again and start smacking all the 100 point score reels and even tapping on the back box insert to insure the circuit holds no matter what the vibration. As you understand, an open anywhere in that circuit will effect ALL 4 players. RB -- CactusJack This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

Cactus JAck's method is teh right way to go. No only will it show you that the eos circuit is correctly doing it's job (BTW, I've seen many machines with broken EOSs work fine), but as he states you can now tap other things trying to see if you have something else breaking the circuit.

Don't let the relay hold forever because you don't want to burn upo taht coil, but at least take the time to rrot around for the issue.

Bit you are right, you will learn lots about how everything related operates by searching for this solution.

Good Luck

Bert

[FredMaine]

Ok, I had a few minutes at the machine just now.

(drum roll please)

To my utter astonishment/amazement when I pulse the 100's relay 5 times
by tapping on the top of the switch ladder --- the score stepper keeps
up.

(cymbal crash)

A rousing round of applause for mopar cuda.

Sorry; this has been so frustrating for so long, any good news is happy
news.

This more or less points to the coil/spring/armature, and not the
switches or EOS, does it not?

Fred


--
FredMaine

[FredMaine]

Oh yeah what a difference. I have my test button hard-wired to the
relay itself; five fast pulses gets be 300-400 points.

Tapping the ladder 5 times at the same pace gets me 500 points.

[FredMaine]

With the machine off but the coil still wired in, I read 14.4 ohms, so
Scott that looks about right.

[timne...@gmail.com]

Okay Fred, what I was thinking before is that you hot wired the push
button to the M relay, and got good pulses, but same results on the
score reel. That's why I was thinking the one set of contacts in the
M Relay... Don't see it often but now, if it's hard wired directly to the
M Relay it has to be the coil. The only other possibilities is a tight
spring (I'm not thinking so) or tight contacts going through
the ladder, but we do know that it is related with the M Realy itself.
Your Buddy was on to something when he said try the 1000s coil in it's
place. But of course, if it's something else with the M relay and not the
coil, you probably will get the same result...

[FredMaine]

I had swapped a couple of springs in, from the 10's and 1000's relays,
with no difference. I'm not inclined to blame the spring.

After cleaning the switches I was very careful to make sure the long
blade of the switches was not "pulling up" on the ladder.

Really it seems the coil or the armature itself must be the culprit.

Is there anything else about the coil other than resistance/ohms that I
need to consider?

Right now I so wish that I had a spare AG relay kicking around.

I may switch the armature and ladder from another relay just to see if
it matters; just because it's easy.

[CactusJack]

Got any old-school feeler guages around (like for setting spark plug
gaps). A few factors can effect the speed of closure or opening of the
relay. If the armature is too far out, it will take longer to move
towards the coil slug. The Metal tab, actually part of the relay frame
sets up the outward stop point. It is possible that it has been bent
out of adjustment. If the space between the armature and the coil slug
is drastically different than a working relay, then perhaps that's the
problem.

As mentioned, if the switch blades are forcing the ladder outward. For
the most part, any switch should be the same position whether the ladder
is installed or not. The ladder should only change the blades position
from the resting point. Although you state this is not the case and you
have checked for it.

Here, you are starting to see why some operators hated working on
Gottliebs as opposed to Bally and Williams. The motion of a Gottlieb
relay is very subtle. Which made it difficult to adjust. However, the
same lack of motion kept them in adjustment probably better than the
major motion of a Bally or Williams relay which were typically wide open
and had a lot of range of motion.

RB


--
CactusJack

[FredMaine]

RB, after reading your post I looked at all the AG relays in the head; I
do notice that on the 100's relay, the armature "wobbles" more at the
hinge than on the others. Here's a shot of it I took the other day
while cleaning the switches:

[image:
http://home.roadrunner.com/~martin/pin/GTB-Hot-Shot-AG-Armature-sm.jpg]

Note the wear at the hinge. I hadn't though it all that bad, until now.
Maybe this is all I need to replace?

Fred


--
FredMaine

[Scott McClure]

FredMaine;2074955 Wrote:
> With the machine off but the coil still wired in, I read 14.4 ohms, so
> Scott that looks about right.

Well, I didn't really think that's what it was, but it was worth a shot.
That's plenty strong.

It looks like your armature theory, and RB's ideas, are a good point to
check here.

And I agree, GTB relays are just a dog to adjust. Williams/Bally's were
larger and easier to see and adjust, and I've had no trouble keeping
them in adjustment either. The guy who designed GTB Ax and Bx relays is
the same guy who figures where on your car is the most inconvenient
place to put your oil filter. Both of them need a serious beating.


--
Scott McClure

[FredMaine]

I'm looking locally for a replacement now, among the New England
collectors. I'll report back again when I change anything.


--
FredMaine

[CactusJack]

FredMaine;2075103 Wrote:
> I'm looking locally for a replacement relay frame now, among the New

> England collectors. I'll report back again when I change anything.

Boy, that is some major wear. Easy to understand when basically
everything you hit is worth 500 points (drop targets etc.). I always
wondered about wear and tear on some of those 70's WMS games where the
game seemed to always be scoring 3 or 5 of something (50 pts., 300 pts,
500 pts). Games like Skylab and Darling/Jubilee. Hell, even the rubber
rebound switches scored 50 points instead of 10.

Keep in mind the frame and armature would be the same on any SS gott.
too. They were used for flipper enable, GI Flashing and other purposes.
I just don't know if there is a difference since they were using DC
coils instead of AC. There might be a buzzing issue but that should be
a problem for a temp. on score relay.

So, there are typically 2 or 3 relay bodies on any Gott. SS that got
junked. On System 3, they are down in the body and not on the
playfield.

RB


--
CactusJack

[FredMaine]

That's an odd thing about the Hot Shot and Big Shot. Thousands
rollovers are worth more, but make the least noise. 500's worth less,
make a racket :)


--
FredMaine

[CactusJack]

FredMaine;2075169 Wrote:
> That's an odd thing about the Hot Shot and Big Shot. Thousands
> rollovers are worth more, but make the least noise. 500's worth less,

> make a racket :) Fred,
It won't be so bad once you get to play it with the Back Door and
Playfield glass on! :cool:


--
CactusJack

[Frank Furhter]

Scott McClure wrote:
> FredMaine;2074955 Wrote:
>> With the machine off but the coil still wired in, I read 14.4 ohms, so
>> Scott that looks about right.
>
> Well, I didn't really think that's what it was, but it was worth a shot.
> That's plenty strong.
>
> It looks like your armature theory, and RB's ideas, are a good point to
> check here.
>
> And I agree, GTB relays are just a dog to adjust.

Not if someone is not a flat greased up back woods slob with sausage
fingers. Take apart a bottom board sometime, clean them all up and
completely disassemble, reassemble and you will have a very good idea or
understanding of how they need to be adjusted/pressured/aligned. Until
then, they are indeed not as 'user friendly' as one may desire in todays
fat fuck world of over fed donut lovin' pinheads.

> Williams/Bally's were
> larger and easier to see and adjust, and I've had no trouble keeping
> them in adjustment either. The guy who designed GTB Ax and Bx relays is
> the same guy who figures where on your car is the most inconvenient
> place to put your oil filter. Both of them need a serious beating.
>
>


--

The Frankster, a playfield prankster
Once upon my crank her ballpark shrank.
http://PinWiki.net, Prep-H 4 pinballers.
CARGPB #42 (Its free to join, sign up now!)

[FredMaine]

Just updating with the solution to the problem.

It was in fact, the armature alone that was the trouble. See the image
a few posts back, that groove along the hinge was the cause.

Thanks to a fellow Boston Pinball Assoc. member I got a like-new
replacement armature with the ladder, popped it in and that was the end
of that.

I'm thankful for all the help and suggestions here. The discussion that
revolved around the logic in the circuits and trying to narrow down
whether or not it was score steppers, player unit, and so on - while not
the solution - was an excellent exercise and gave me some tools to use
for other issues that may crop up.

Fred


--
FredMaine

[CactusJack]

Thanks for the follow up Fred.

I know I have seen "some" damage over the years on relays I have worked
on but I don't think I have seen that Much damage (Maybe on a Chicago
Coin game - LOL).

Assuming they are both made from the same grade steel, logic would
indicate that there is equal wear on the frame pivot as well as there
was on the armature. But to elimiate half of the wear obviously solved
your problem.

When I saw your picture, I was also concerned about the damage to the
face of the armature from the solenoid core hiting it. I have seen
damage like that cause things to get stuck too. Certainly to cause BUZZ
on AC relays that remain on most of the time.

Glad you got it going. Now you can enjoy one of Gottlieb's best Drop
Target games. But, once cleaned and polished, you will find that center
hole is a Bitch to get and you will wish the game to be dirty and slow
again!

RB


--
CactusJack

[Scott McClure]

Glad you got it working, Fred. There's no better feeling that finding
and fixing elusive problems like this.


--
Scott McClure