Williams sys 7 flipper + 250vdc 2.2uf capacitor mod
kie
circuits, has anyone done this on the earlier sys 7 28V versions?
As I noticed the other day, 28V's still generates a good sized spark
acros the EOS and reducing it in any way will help the life of the
switch.
c...@provide.net
The mod does not work unless you are
using parallel wound flipper coils (which
only exist in 50volt versions). so the short
answer is, don't waste your time because
you can't get parallel wound 28 volt flipper
coils, only series wound.
now it begs the question, can you convert
a series wound flipper coil to a parallel
wound coil? hmmm....
.
AL
IMHO, I would imagine a cap of that value was placed there to keep
noise spikes off of a bus line, not necessarily to prolong the life of
the EoS switch, The best way (once again IMHO) to reduce arcing is to
clean the switch well. A dirty or pitted switch will arc. The arcing
accelerates the degradation of the contacts and will shorten the life
of the switch.
If a simple cleaning doesn't do the trick, I would suggest replacement,
or (if you have a lot of time on your hands) burnishing the contacts.
Happy New Year!
AL
kie
went into storage) by a repair technician when I got the new coil from
him. Reading this site,
http://www.edcheung.com/album/album05/pinball/shuttlepin.htm, I see a
series wound coil with this mod and a claim it reduces the spark. I
always thought parallel and series wound coils existed in the 50v
versions. This is why one can upgrade series wound coils in 50V games
to parallel (see marvin3.com) but not in older 28V games.
kie
possible. The capacitor mod was introduced specifically to reduce spark
(see marvin3.com), this seems to be a common practice in other fields
also.
AL
I'll admit, there's alot I don't know about these things, but from a
purely electronic standpoint, I know caps are used frequently to
"debounce" a switch.
To reduce a spark, it would be limited essentially to 5 RC time
constants, which in this case using solely the resistive component of
the coil (we'll call it 10 Ohms just to keep the math easy) R*C*5 would
be .1mSeconds (110uSeconds) before the cap would be fully charged.
I would imagine the duration of those sparks, due in part to the
ionization of the surrounding air, to be much longer tha 1/1000th of a
second. Just 'cause it's pinball, doesn't mean it can defy the laws of
physics (Although most of my SDTM shots seem to. ;-0 ).
Maybe I'm coming at this from the wrong angle, if so, I'm quite
interested in understanding the physics behind this one.
Thanks for bringing this one up!
AL
kie
involves) I'm a learning newbie. I guess a more valid question would
be: if I do fit it, will it do any harm?
AL
>I guess a more valid question would be: if I do fit it, will it do any harm?
There's the real question! Nope, no harm that I can think of. ;-)
Enjoy your game!
AL
Retrogameconnection
kie
I can definitely report a very significant reduction in the amount and
size of the spark on the flippers with the capacitors. Only the future
will tell how much extra life they will give to the EOS but at this
stage I'd recommend it as an excellent mod to make.
kie
because everything is new in the assembly and the impact would be
greater on a worn unit.
Retrogameconnection
thinking of that currently has the cap installed also has very poor
condition EOS switches and cabinet switches. I did notice that it
seemed to be less snappy after installing it though - not a lot but
just slightly noticeable....
c...@provide.net
> This mod was recommended to me many years ago (just before the machine
> went into storage) by a repair technician when I got the new coil from
> him. Reading this site,
> http://www.edcheung.com/album/album05/pinball/shuttlepin.htm, I see a
> series wound coil with this mod and a claim it reduces the spark. I
> always thought parallel and series wound coils existed in the 50v
> versions. This is why one can upgrade series wound coils in 50V games
> to parallel (see marvin3.com) but not in older 28V games.
Well, to put it frankly, He's Wrong!
And i think if you ask him in email,
he will confirm that using the cap
with a series wound flipper coil
will NOT help decrease the spark.
if you goggle I do believe he admits
to that error.
The cap just does nothing with a
series wound coil. Now if you have a
parallel wound coil, YOU CAN SEE
the effect the cap has! It really does
make a big difference. But with a
series wound coil, you're wasting your
time.
beaver
System 9 due to repair tips on your site. Looks like I misread it. In
any case, adding the capacitor makes sense to me technically, and I
assure you that in my case, adding the capacitor to a System 6 (Flash)
and System 9 (Space Shuttle) has reduced the spark considerably.
Sometimes, I get no spark at all from the switches. If I do get a
spark, it is a very small one.
We can go into a long discussion about why a capacitor across a contact
reduces the arc, but clearly to me, the capacitor prevents the rapid
buildup of voltage across the contact as it is separating. This
prevents the initial arc, and the creation of the subsequent longer one
that sustains electrical current.
Edward Cheung CARGPB26
www.edcheung.com
David Gersic
> now it begs the question, can you convert
> a series wound flipper coil to a parallel
> wound coil? hmmm....
Since both are just two wrappings of wire around a plastic bobbin, I
don't see why rearranging the taps on the back would make a difference.
So, unless there's something obvious I'm missing, yes, you should be
able to rewire a "series" wound coil in to a "parallel" one.
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| Cows in orbit: The herd shot around the world. |
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |
seymour...@excite.com
David Gersic wrote:
> On 2 Jan 2007 20:30:04 -0800, c...@provide.net <c...@provide.net> wrote:
> > now it begs the question, can you convert
> > a series wound flipper coil to a parallel
> > wound coil? hmmm....
>
> Since both are just two wrappings of wire around a plastic bobbin, I
> don't see why rearranging the taps on the back would make a difference.
> So, unless there's something obvious I'm missing, yes, you should be
> able to rewire a "series" wound coil in to a "parallel" one.
Isn't the series wound one the high power is a tap on the whole
(single) strand of wire on the coil, and the parallel wound is one wire
of shorter length/higher strength, and there is a seperate winding for
the hold (longer/lower)?
If so it would be difficult to make a series a parallel. If not I'm
not understanding it right.
-scott CARGPB#29
kie
last two flippers but i'll wait until its dark, get the video and film
the spark. This way you will be able to compare them for yourself and
see the difference, believe me it is very noticable. My observation of
the results is the same as what Ed has, almost no spark at all for 4 or
5 openings and then a small (much much smaller than without the cap)
discharge.
I'll post it on youtube with a link in a later messge.
kie
on a series wound coil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlKaxYLhkw
Game is Black Knight LE. On the far left are the two lower playfield
flipper assemblies with the capacitor attached, on the far right are
the upper playfield flipper assemblies with no capacitor attached. All
are brand new flipper assemblies except one of the left flippers is
using an old coil (wanted to test a knackered coil whose resistance is
only 2.8ohms). The right flippers can only work if the left work (two
stack leaf switch) ie if the right fires the left must have fired also.
The top right hand flipper has the EOS obscured by the coil but if you
look closely you can still see the reflection of the flash, lol you
have to blind to miss it but try and spot a flash from the left hand
assemblies!
As they say, a picture proves a thousand words.... without a doubt
adding a cap to your series wound coil makes a MASSIVE reduction to the
spark.
For those of you that think this doesn't work or isn't worth doing then
I pity your EOS's. Clay, your feedback will be interesting. Thanks Ed
for taking the time to post a picture on your web site, all it took was
a little spark......
c...@provide.net
> Go here for a video of how important this is for the life of your EOS
> on a series wound coil:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlKaxYLhkw
Wow that's really cool.
But ya gotta do me a couple favors here
before I give-in on this.
With the game off, measure the resistance
of the two flipper coils used.
But more important, could you please
refilm this?? I need you to disconnect
the 2nd set of flipper coils from *both*
flippers.
Because Black Knight is a 4 flipper
game, I'm not quite believing your
video. And i don't quite understand
what you are saying below about the
second pair of flippers.
Is the spark i'm seeing the EMF from
the 2nd pair of flippers? Or is it the
lower flipper EOS switch? It is rather
unclear.
The EMF happens because as the
2nd pair of flippers (the upper flippers)
lose power, and the flipper coils'
magnetism collapses, you can get a
backward of high voltage thru the
switch on the lower set of flippers next
to the EOS switch. I just want to make
sure your video does not reflect that.
So if you don't mind, could you repeat
that with the 2nd set (upper flippers)
completely removed from the circuit?
An even better idea would be to film
this on a game with just 2 flippers.
That would really remove all doubt.
My comments about series versus
parallel flipper coils and the spark
suppression caps reflect what Williams
said in their documentation on the
subject. So i didn't just pull this out
of the air.
Also in my experience when i have added
the cap to series wound coils, visually
I saw no spark supression.
David Gersic
> I'll admit, there's alot I don't know about these things, but from a
> purely electronic standpoint, I know caps are used frequently to
> "debounce" a switch.
See also automotive "points" style ignitions, and their use of a
"condensor" (ie: capacitor) to prolong the life of the switch points.
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well! |
kie
top of the playfield is on the right....
The spark is across the EOS itself. This is the spark you are seeing on
the video and its primarily from the upper playfield (right hand side
of the video) pair of flippers - no cap on them. There is virtually no
spark from the lower flippers (left hand side of the video).
I'll remeasure the resistance later today, from memory the new coils
are around 40ohms each.
I'll run a series of tests. I'll remove the caps and film all flippers.
Next I'll disconnect the upper playfield flippers and film the lower
flippers. I'll then add the cap to one of the lower flippers and
compare them side by side (still with the upper playfield flippers
disconnected). This will give an example of a two flipper game. I'll
post later on with another link.
c...@provide.net
I'll do you one better...
I have a Williams System3 at the clubhouse.
It's a Phoenix, so it only has 2 flippers.
I have some good video cameras too.
So i will film the flippers tonight with
and without caps. And i'll show in the video
how i have the caps wired, and the resistance
of the coils.
I think this will be a much better test than
using a black knight. The 4 flipper issue
and how it powers the additional flippers
just confuses the issue. it's not a very
good test vehicle for this.
40 ohms could be the resistance of the
hold side of the coil. but that's why too
high for the power side. I'll measure the
resistance tonight on the Phoenix, and
show it all in the video.
AL
Good point. This might be how the practice orignated.
AL
c...@provide.net
how caps affect EOS spark on series
versus parallel wound flipper coils.
My video conclusion is different than yours.
http://www.pinrepair.com/movies/sparks.wmv
kie
series wound coils but I must admit I have a slightly biased
viewpoint.....
Here is my version (using a BK but with the upper playfield flippers
taken out of the circuit), details as below:
right (older coil) has 0.7 ohms on the primary and 24.5 ohms on the
secondary. EOS gap is 1/8 inch.
left (new) coil has 1.0 ohms on the primary and 26.0 ohms on the
secondary. EOS gap is 1/8 inch.
Both EOS's are new, as is the rest of the flipper assembly.
The big difference between our approaches is that I, and Ed, placed the
cap across the secondary winding. I initially favoured the cap across
the EOS switch (as you have) but after a long discussion with an
ignition expert on old cars covering matters such as how collapsing
magnetic fields work in dual coil windings, secondary effects and
backwash, it went there. This is especially noticeable on the flipper
without the cap, you can see sparks thru and around the secondary
winding!
It is also why I have noticed no difference in flipper power.
Unfortunately as I compressed the video the sound got out of sync
(sound is late) but you will get the idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyhmmScsmWA
beaver
Clay did not see a reduction in spark. All I know is that I have in
the two machines that I used them in, and they are staying 8-).
Edward Cheung CARGPB26
www.edcheung.com
c...@provide.net
i would replace that coil. Being the resistance is below 1 ohm,
i think that will generate more spark than the other coil.
So your test video is still slanted a bit.
But is there a chance you could put up a still
photo of how you have the Cap soldered in place?
I mounted my caps just like Williams did. I don't
quite understand how you did it.
c...@provide.net
> FWIW, I placed the cap across the switch contacts. I do not know why
> Clay did not see a reduction in spark. All I know is that I have in
> the two machines that I used them in, and they are staying 8-).
>
> Edward Cheung CARGPB26
> www.edcheung.com
I don't know either. I think the effect is very minimal
on series wound flip coils. Now on parallel it's
dramatic. But it may be more dramatic because
as seen in the video, I'm using an Earthshaker
as the parallel coil test bed, which is a 50 volt
game. (The spark on a 50 volt coil should be
greater than a 28 volt coil.)
I'm not taking the caps off the series wound
Phoenix game either. Not because they are
really doing much (they aren't), but mostly
because they aren't hurting anything. And it
would just be more work to remove them.
To further muddy the waters, again I got my
info directly from Williams about the cap and
how it has little to no effect on spark suppression
on series wound coils. I figure they know something
about this stuff. But again, it's not hurting anything
to have the caps, so if you have them, put them
on and forget about it. There really is no
down-side.
c...@provide.net
is INDUCTANCE. We all look at coils
as resistors, but in reality, they are more
than that. They are inductors too. And as
a coil gets older, and the enamel coating
on the wire breaks down, the inductance
(Henries) of the coil changes.
This may have some impact on EOS spark
suppression too. I do know that older
flipper coils CAN be weaker (in flipper power)
than the exact same coil which is new.
Again this is due to the inductance of the
coil (given the exact same resistance).
It's not talked about much here, but
inductance is a factor in flipper coil strength,
at least to some degree.
ArmisBrooks
the HUO area?
Why mess with the original design? I thought that spark was necesary to
clean the oxide off the contacts (and thus provide a stronger power stroke).
Chris
<c...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:1167973917.4...@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
seymour...@excite.com
ArmisBrooks wrote:
> What did I miss? Is EOS spark destroying pinball machines? Especially in
> the HUO area?
>
> Why mess with the original design? I thought that spark was necesary to
> clean the oxide off the contacts (and thus provide a stronger power stroke).
>
The cap is supposed to reduce contact pitting. Maybe as Clay says it's
not needed on the older machines because they're 28volts instead of
50v.... the wear may happen at an acceptable rate vs. the 50volt
flippers which will have a stronger arc.
I think the other key is that the EOS switches being adjusted furthur
out, causing a larger spark will do more damage. This is purely from
one of those "eye of the storm" type globes where there's "lightning"
inside - I figured out a while ago you could get the spark to happen
OUTSIDE the globe, if you lick your finger, rub it on the globe, then
pull the finger back slowly. It was really cool until I was trying for
a longer spark, got it to go about an inch and it burned a hole in my
finger. (A small one, but a hole just the same..... boy did that
hurt!)
So, maybe the EOS is the same way?
-scott CARGPB#29
kie
on a new coil, what about a coil that has been in the game for many
years? I don't see how this slants the video, all I'm doing is
suppressing the spark effectively with an old coil and showing a
comparison to a new coil. You should see the spark on the old coil
assembly when the cap is not installed! With the cap on both assemblies
I see less spark, over time, in the assembly with the new coil than the
one with the old coil. However this is just a visual observation with
no recorded evidence.
The cap is soldered across the lugs, middle to ground or across the
secondary winding. Same as Eds and you can see his clearly in his photo
on his page. No difference to yours, just the installation point is as
close as possible to the windings, not to the EOS. I know, this is at
odds to the suggestion that it should be as close to the contacts as
possible but I was given a reason for this, although the very long
technical explanation went slightly over my head but it was specific to
series wound coils and collapsing magnetic fields.
I'm going to dig out my old books and have another look at this. The
cap in use was intended for a 50V circuit, not 28V. Also there is an
optimal resistance one should aim for in the circuit before the cap,
but this is dependant upon an RC network aiming for a contact voltage
of X at X time after the contacts have opened. What this was meant to
be only a Williams engineer could tell us. I'll have to make some
assumptions unless anyone out there knows what this should be.
I also vaguely recall reading somewhere about the use of zener diodes
in line with the cap, again I'll have a dig and post anything I find of
interest in a new thread.
