MM prices are nuts! (mini rant from an owner)
Chris Foote
(Tillman in Texas) wrote:
>Someone did, and I almost had to sell my beloved MM.
Fortunately, he
>found a local one (you start waving that kind of money around,
>_someone_ will bring a machine out of the back room)
Whoa! Is that person on the newsgroup? :)
>If you had 6K to spend on a gameroom, what would you buy? 1
pinball
>machine? Or maybe a nice TZ / CV / WW / HS2 combo?
Definately. If someone is starting off in our hobby, MM is
definately NOT the first game to get! That combo above is a
GREAT combination of games and will supply more fun than MM
alone. While MM is a awesome game, these prices are ridiculous.
>Granted, 6K isn't really all that much for a piece of gameroom
>equipment. A nice pool table or jukebox will go for much more.
>But still, 6K for a MM? Somebody make it stop.
>Anyone have an over/under date for the first $7000 MM sale
price?
Wait till Christmas, and then your eyes will drop. :)
-Chris
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Bob E.
>
> Let's talk Medieval Madness for a moment.
>
>-snip-<
>
> If you had 6K to spend on a gameroom, what would you buy? 1 pinball
> machine? Or maybe a nice TZ / CV / WW / HS2 combo?
Or let's say you had $50K to spend...or $100K, or ???? Somebody's
been profit-taking on the stock-market in the last couple months...
and let's say you were a newly-minted millionaire who wanted to have
what other people seem to want (must be a reason they want it, right?)
...or you already had a TZ / CV / WW / HS2 (or knew you could probably
get them later, since they seem to be not so hard to come by)... might
that explain the $6K MM phenomenon? After all, money is being created
every day, but there are no more MM's being made. Just wait for the
next *real* economic downturn, and do your MM shopping then (oh, wait,
you have one, well, be sure to sell before then!) Just food for
thought. --Bob
=====================================================================
Bob Ellingson bob...@halted.com
Halted Specialties Co., Inc. http://www.halted.com
3500 Ryder St. (408) 732-1573
Santa Clara, Calif. 95051 USA FAX (408) 732-6428
Tillman in Texas
Ok, yes, I have one, I got it at a steal. It's a cool game, and
perhaps one of the best late model machines.
But look at this!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=331297629
A few months ago there was a debate on rec.games.pinball concerning MM
and the unbelievable $4000 that someone's machine brought during an
auction. At that time, I jokingly offered my machine for $5500,
certain that nobody would bite on it.
Someone did, and I almost had to sell my beloved MM. Fortunately, he
found a local one (you start waving that kind of money around,
_someone_ will bring a machine out of the back room)
Then one went for $4500. "it's a fluke"
One went for $5500. "but it was a home-use only machine"
Today, one went for $6000. It looks like a legitimate auction, too.
What the heck?
If you had 6K to spend on a gameroom, what would you buy? 1 pinball
machine? Or maybe a nice TZ / CV / WW / HS2 combo?
Granted, 6K isn't really all that much for a piece of gameroom
equipment. A nice pool table or jukebox will go for much more. But
still, 6K for a MM? Somebody make it stop.
I don't really know the point of this rant. Theoretically, I should
be jumping for joy. In reality, I'm looking at my machine (our
anniversary gift, no less!) and being torn between keeping it or
putting it up for sale. I'm also thinking about replacement costs, and
how my home insurance only covers 10K worth of gameroom equipment.
That seemed like plenty until recently.
Anyone have an over/under date for the first $7000 MM sale price?
Tillman
www.pinball.nu
Orion72101
Tom ( the greed ).
Mitch
way too much freaking money.
My next door neighbor spent $85k on his landscaping, and $20k on his
lawnmower. Would you or I do that? Probably not.
Would you spend that if you had $10,000,000 burning holes in your
pockets? Why not?
It's disgusting, I agree. The filthy rich are defining the market and
setting the prices. So the rest of us have to try to find the scraps.
I guess I'm glad I found a relatively late-model machine (TZ) before all
the rich people decide they're worth $4k.
--
______________________________________________________________________
Mitch Brink, Composer/ Sound Designer (TZ, Blackout)
E-mail: mi...@mbsoundworks.com
WWW: http://www.mbsoundworks.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Starwriter
Probably. But that's my price. All of my other pins are negotiable, but
MM? No way.
Stelter
In the 80's, I watched the same thing happen with Wurlitzer bubbler (model
1015) jukes! The prices kept going up and up and up! Lots of people got to
the point where they almost HAD to sell them because they had picked them up
cheap, and could get (at that time) over $10,000.00 for them! There was a
small group of people (just like the people who are buying the MM's) who
feel that they MUST have one. I don't know if it's ego (bragging rights) or
what. All I do know is that within 10 years, the market fell out on the
bubblers, and there are a lot of folks who really regret getting caught up
in the "must have" frenzy!
Just like everyone else, I want to have "desirable" pieces in my collection,
whether they be jukes, pins, or vids. BUT, I will only add these things to
my collection if I can get them at reasonable prices because I have seen the
"flavor of the month" nature of the hobby. That way I can keep or sell them
no matter where they are in their value cycle. How long do you think that
mediocre EM bat & pitch baseball machines are going to be selling for
$1,500+ ?
I think that other people who collect jukes will agree with me that even
though they have stopped making most pinballs, they will still be around for
DECADES! People will start making more parts for them, and people will stop
parting out games unless they are COMPLETELY shot.
I think that I would opt for 3 or 4 other games instead of one MM. The
general public won't be impressed by you spending $6,000.00 on a pinball
machine, and the RGP crowd know that the game sold for 1/2 that new in the
box!
I guess that I wish that I had a dozen to sell!
Later!
Keith
Tillman in Texas <Til...@strahan.org> wrote in message
news:392362a4...@192.168.1.2...
David Heller
bidding went from 4200 to 6000.00, I guess the reserve was 6k, why not just
list the pin at 6k or 7k and see what you get. I also own one and paid much
less, but at 6-7k I might just sell. IM thinking about what this pin is
going to be worth in 5-7 years when the craze is over? will prices go up
even more? or will most people tire of this game and it will no longer be a
hot item and the price will drop? The problem is getting stuck with an item
that is worth much less then you paid. The flip side of the coin is that
fewer pins being produced at this point in time which will keep the prices
high. I think pins from 1992-2000 offer longer term playability due to the
complex structure, I can't say that any of the early SS, and EM's do it for
me, and I am sure many others. Another problem is most WMS production after
95 was less then 3000 units so we are all after the same market, even before
that other then TAF,TZ and a few others the production was less then 10k. I
need to win the lottery to keep up.
Kyle Wren
"David Heller" <dhel...@Mglobix.com> wrote:
> IM thinking about what this pin is going to be worth in 5-7 years
> when the craze is over? will prices go up even more? or will most
> people tire of this game and it will no longer be a
> hot item and the price will drop?
The prices for MM have been singled out for attack, but I think it's
fair to say the prices on all the late model Williams machines have
been climbing lately. Given that pinball collecting has skyrocketed,
and the supply of "good" machines is now a fixed value (IE Williams
isn't making any more machines, and I don't hear too many people
excited about collecting recent entries by the other factories),
climbing prices is now a fact of life. We are all now competing for
the "remains" of a once thriving enterprise. Once it's been parted out,
the only think left is to trade amoungst ourselves as we tire of
individual machines. Breaking down and buying a NIB Monster Bash is no
longer an option.
Kyle
-------
TAF,MM,ToM,TZ,ST:TNG,WCS94,CP
Dave Stambaugh
prices people will pay for it. Here's how I would attempt to explain it the
rising MM prices, and also pins in general:
* First, MM is just a damned great game in every sense. This has been
debated ad nauseum on rgp, so suffice to say that many of us (myself
included) believe MM is the best '90s pin, period. It does more things
right than any other game. Heck, even my own mother, who HATES games and
won't play them, thinks MM is way cool to look at!
* The Internet has opened up the lines of communication and information so
that competition for desirable games is no longer limited to just a small
group of insiders or collectors. Anyone with a computer and a desire to own
a trophy game can now have a shot at bagging the prize, without ever
stepping outside their front door or searching a phone book for "dealers".
* The strong US economy in general has created a lot (and I mean a LOT) of
"loose change". Heck, if you made $500K playing the market in the last 2
years, what's $6K for that trophy game?
* Williams bailing out of the pin business means there's a fixed supply of
desirable games, yet the potential market among private collectors is
increasing. Higher demand usually means higher prices.
* Operators are discovering the collector market. This is directly related
to the everyone's-on-the-'net phenomenon. The op I've been buying from in
recent years has now decided all his games should be fetching full retail
prices. Example: I've been trying to negotiate with him for a TOTAN. He's
decided it's worth $2500 and that's it, end of negotiation. Now, the game
has playfield wear around the left saucer, and also some of the letters in
BAZAAR are worn off; and the game has broken plastics and a drywall screw
driven into the p/f next to a ramp entrance. $2500 is just too much, yet if
he perseveres he will probably get it.
Will MM continue to command these ever-rising prices? Who knows? Certainly
not me. But if you want one, really really bad, and you have the bucks, I
say more power to you for getting one. And more power to the sellers for
making a few $$ on the deal. But if you sell your game, just remember that
there's a fixed supply of MMs out there, all in deteriorating condition, and
the one you have now may be the best one you will ever find! So think twice
about giving in to the greed and selling a game that you might wish you had
kept 10 years down the road...
-dave
Tillman in Texas <Til...@strahan.org> wrote in message
news:392362a4...@192.168.1.2...
> Let's talk Medieval Madness for a moment.
>
> Ok, yes, I have one, I got it at a steal. It's a cool game, and
> perhaps one of the best late model machines.
>
> But look at this!
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=331297629
>
> A few months ago there was a debate on rec.games.pinball concerning MM
> and the unbelievable $4000 that someone's machine brought during an
> auction. At that time, I jokingly offered my machine for $5500,
> certain that nobody would bite on it.
>
> Someone did, and I almost had to sell my beloved MM. Fortunately, he
> found a local one (you start waving that kind of money around,
> _someone_ will bring a machine out of the back room)
>
> Then one went for $4500. "it's a fluke"
> One went for $5500. "but it was a home-use only machine"
> Today, one went for $6000. It looks like a legitimate auction, too.
>
> What the heck?
>
> If you had 6K to spend on a gameroom, what would you buy? 1 pinball
> machine? Or maybe a nice TZ / CV / WW / HS2 combo?
>
cody
I pretty much agree witheverything you've said. MM is a damn
cool game that I play any chance I get. But I think ebay is
setting a false "worth" on machines. By that I mean there may be
one or two fools out there with more money than well, anything,
who is willing to spend an astronomical amount on a game, but
could never turn around and get that same price for it. Just
because one or two people are prepared to pay a certain amount
for a game doesn't mean it is 'worth' that same amount.
Another thing to consider is that many people were sitting on
these games creating a lull in supply. Demand remained the same
or grew, causing prices to escalate. Now all of a sudden the MMs
come out of the woodwork for sale. And for good reason...they're
selling for more than they're worth.
It is extremely unfortunate for us all that a minute percentage
of the population with very deep pockets can dictate prices all
over the country (or the world).
It is my sincere hope that these unrealistic prices are being
paid by ignorant speculators, and that the market will correct
itself when the furor over the WMS closing is finally laid to
rest and the two upstarts are in full swing cranking out new
pins.
And may I add: Just because a pin sells for a certain amount on
ebay doesn't mean that's the price you should ask locally.
That's insane. You want ebay prices, put the damn thing up there
and see what happens. You want cash in hand and pickup, give me
a decent price.
-Cody
In article <8g1511$hrg$1...@plo.sierra.com>, "Dave Stambaugh"
Steve
>Hi Dave,
>
>I pretty much agree witheverything you've said. MM is a damn
>cool game that I play any chance I get. But I think ebay is
>setting a false "worth" on machines. By that I mean there may be
>one or two fools out there with more money than well, anything,
>who is willing to spend an astronomical amount on a game, but
>could never turn around and get that same price for it. Just
>because one or two people are prepared to pay a certain amount
>for a game doesn't mean it is 'worth' that same amount.
Huh? "Market value" is defined as what a willing buyer will pay a
willing seller. "Worth," on the other hand, is in the eye of the
beholder--and everyone had a different opinion of what something is
worth..
>Another thing to consider is that many people were sitting on
>these games creating a lull in supply. Demand remained the same
>or grew, causing prices to escalate. Now all of a sudden the MMs
>come out of the woodwork for sale. And for good reason...they're
>selling for more than they're worth.
How can you say that on behalf of the market as a whole? You can't.
All you can say is that they are selling for more than YOU think they
are worth. Market price is the market price.
>It is extremely unfortunate for us all that a minute percentage
>of the population with very deep pockets can dictate prices all
>over the country (or the world).
That's the free market economy at work, my friend. And I wouldn't
want it any other way.
>It is my sincere hope that these unrealistic prices are being
>paid by ignorant speculators, and that the market will correct
>itself when the furor over the WMS closing is finally laid to
>rest and the two upstarts are in full swing cranking out new
>pins.
Wishful thinking, but don't count on it. Bottom line: supply is
limited due to the WMS closing, so the price is going up.
>And may I add: Just because a pin sells for a certain amount on
>ebay doesn't mean that's the price you should ask locally.
>That's insane. You want ebay prices, put the damn thing up there
>and see what happens. You want cash in hand and pickup, give me
>a decent price.
What e-bay had done is "perfected" the pin market. Before e-bay, pin
buyers and sellers getting together was an imperfect process. E-bay
works like the stock market--putting thousands of buyers and sellers
together. E-bays prices are a true reflection of the market,
regardless of what many folks on this newsgroup want to think.
Steve
cody
>pay a
>willing seller. "Worth," on the other hand, is in the eye of
the
>beholder--and everyone had a different opinion of what
something is
>worth..
Market Value is what someone will give for that particular unit
at that particular time. Saying all future sales of like units
should be the same or more than that is unrealistic. Keep in
mind I'm talking about $6K for a MM. Again, just because one
idiot will give that much for it (if I recall correctly the next
closest bid was $4k-some-odd) does not mean it is worth that
amount to anyone else.
>How can you say that on behalf of the market as a whole? You
>can't.
>All you can say is that they are selling for more than YOU
think they
>are worth. Market price is the market price.
>
I wasn't talking about the market as a whole...just a MM for six
grand. Ebay price is not market price.
>That's the free market economy at work, my friend. And I
>wouldn't
>want it any other way.
>
Ebay is only remotely related to free market economy. It's more
like free market's idiot brother-in-law, exploitive market.
Where people who are unaware are regularly duped into paying
more than an item is worth (again based on resale value...how
many people are prepared to give $6K for a MM besides the, uh,
fellow who bought it.
>Wishful thinking, but don't count on it. Bottom line: supply
is
>limited due to the WMS closing, so the price is going up.
>
Damn skippy, I'm wishing. Everyone else who wants to own pins
better be wishing for the same thing (I don't really care about
selling). Bottom line: False panic regarding the WMS closing has
pushed prices up a bit. When Stern gets a few decent games
released (and hopefully IllPin too) this should correct. Sellers
are tricking people into believing no more pins are being made
(at all) by stating in auctions something like "no more will be
made". They don't state that 2 companies are still making
machines, but WMS was best and *they* aren't making any
more...blah, blah, blah
>What e-bay had done is "perfected" the pin market. Before e-
>bay, pin
>buyers and sellers getting together was an imperfect process.
>E-bay
>works like the stock market--putting thousands of buyers and
>sellers
>together. E-bays prices are a true reflection of the market,
>regardless of what many folks on this newsgroup want to think.
>
>Steve
>
>
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Whoah, Nellie! That was a good one.
Ebay perfect. Hoooo! How naive can you be? With shill bidding,
sellers that flatly misrepresent their product, deadbeat
bidders, deadbeat sellers and a host of other cancers, ebay is
about as far from perfect as Clinton's marital state. Any market
where you purchase an item without being able to inspect it is
inherently flawed.
My whole point: people are trying to base worth or value of an
item for the many based on the pocketbooks of the few. And
everybody knows "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the
few."
Live long and prosper,
Cody
Rexxx
USED item, where they can get the IDENTICAL item, BRAND NEW at a
local store for less. This, in and of itself tells me that Ebay
is far from being perfect, nor is it economy related at all.
Ebay is emotionally driven. You start to bid, you get into the
thrill of having the high bid, checking back to be sure you
weren't out bid.. gotta win.. gotta win... gotta win.... at all
costs.... and eventually, you become the idiot that paid $19.95
for Novus 2 when you can buy it at a local store for $3.00....
nope.. Ebay isn't perfect by a longshot.
Chris Foote
stop...@mindspring.com (Steve ) wrote:
>What e-bay had done is "perfected" the pin market. Before e-
bay, pin
>buyers and sellers getting together was an imperfect process.
E-bay
>works like the stock market--putting thousands of buyers and
sellers
>together. E-bays prices are a true reflection of the market,
>regardless of what many folks on this newsgroup want to think.
>
>Steve
This comment is so false its laughable! Ebay has perfected the
pin market? I see, so we have shill bidders, bidders who don't
follow through with their transactions, and this is called
perfection?
There is NEVER perfection in the economy, its that plain and
simple. You and I both know that. EBay *typically* caters to the
buyer who doesn't know a lot about an item at hand. I think this
is very true, especially in the pinball market. When I first
started off in the hobby, I had no idea where to find parts,
purchase a game, etc. EBay has made that connection to the buyer
who doesn't know *jack* about the equipment presented. Its that
simple!
Therefore you now have a buyer who doesn't know much about
anything, with the exception of having him/her look up previous
auctions and try to get an idea of what the items are selling
for.
Lastly, EBay's prices are *not* reflective of the market. They
are reflective of people who get emotionally caught up in the
auction process. That's fine and dandy, but even an outrageously
priced dealer in my area charges less than EBay prices for most
games!
-Chris
Rexxx
Value. Not the entire market value. When you can choose other
places to purchase the game, and get it for $3,500 to $4,500,
then it is obvious that Ebay doesn't set the entire market
value. Again.. I point to the numerous instances of someone
buying something on Ebay that they could easily get in their own
hometown, and paying more than they would spend if they just
drove around the block. It happens every day. If Wal-Mart is
selling a toothbrush at $2.00 and someone on Ebay sells the
exact same toothbrush at $7.00, does that mean that $7.00 is the
current market value? No.. not when there are THOUSANDS of
other locations selling it for far less. So, if you compare the
$6,000 figure on Ebay (and Ebay alone, I might add) to the
prices of resellers and operators, who outnumber Ebay, then it
is impossible to say that the entire market value for an MM is
$6,000. It's an uneducated buyer that is willing to pay an
outrageous price because they don't know where else to get one,
and a seller that is taking advantage of that fact. If we were
to simply tell everyone that ever bid on a pin where else to get
them, the prices wouldn't be so outrageous on Ebay anymore...
Steve
<codyNO...@cpsinet.com.invalid> wrote:
(portions of my original post snipped)
>Market Value is what someone will give for that particular unit
>at that particular time. Saying all future sales of like units
>should be the same or more than that is unrealistic. Keep in
>mind I'm talking about $6K for a MM. Again, just because one
>idiot will give that much for it (if I recall correctly the next
>closest bid was $4k-some-odd) does not mean it is worth that
>amount to anyone else.
No, but it means the market price for that unit at that time was
$6,000 (if the sale goes through). It was "worth" $6,000 to someone.
>I wasn't talking about the market as a whole...just a MM for six
>grand. Ebay price is not market price.
Like it or not, Ebay prices ARE market prices--if the sale goes
through, a willing buyer just paid a willing seller $6,000 for a MM.
Just because you don't think MM is worth $6,000 doesn't mean that
$6,000 isn't market price. Have you had a basic economics course?
>Ebay is only remotely related to free market economy. It's more
>like free market's idiot brother-in-law, exploitive market.
>Where people who are unaware are regularly duped into paying
>more than an item is worth (again based on resale value...how
>many people are prepared to give $6K for a MM besides the, uh,
>fellow who bought it.
One of the basic principles of a free market is "caveat emptor," or
buyer beware. You seem to think that because some buyers are out
there paying more for something than you think it is worth, the market
is exploitive. Even with all of its problems (some of which you note
below), E-bay is a free market. It's up to the buyer to make sure
they are getting a good deal--o one can be exploited in a free market
without their permission.
>Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Whoah, Nellie! That was a good one.
>Ebay perfect. Hoooo! How naive can you be? With shill bidding,
>sellers that flatly misrepresent their product, deadbeat
>bidders, deadbeat sellers and a host of other cancers, ebay is
>about as far from perfect as Clinton's marital state. Any market
>where you purchase an item without being able to inspect it is
>inherently flawed.
>
>My whole point: people are trying to base worth or value of an
>item for the many based on the pocketbooks of the few. And
>everybody knows "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the
>few."
First, I'll admit e-bay is not "perfect." That's why I put the term
"perfect" in quotes. Next, I'll state that NO market is
perfect--especially as you've defined it. Based on your definition,
the stock market is not "perfect" because you can't inspect the
companies whose stock you want to buy before you purchase them. I
contend, however, that the stock market is close to as free as market
as exists in the world today. That's why economists describe the stock
market as "perfected" even though it contains many of the same
problems as the problems with e-bay you've listed above (i.e., if you
don't think brokerage firms engage in shill bidding, flatly
misrepresenting their products, etc., with respect to stocks, then
you're the one who is naive). And--even with its' "cancers" as
you've described them, e-bay is a helluva lot closer to a true free
market than anything that has preceded it. I recognize the problems
with e-bay--that's why "caveat emptor" is so important. You won't
catch me paying $6,000 for a MM.
Bottom line: you seem to be blaming a free market (that you describe
as "exploitive") for higher pin prices. If you don't like the free
market system, feel free to suggest some other economic system that
works. Until you do, don't blame a free market for higher pin prices.
It's purely just a matter of supply and demand.
Steve
Iain Odlin
>No, but it means the market price for that unit at that time was
>$6,000 (if the sale goes through). It was "worth" $6,000 to someone.
>
>Like it or not, Ebay prices ARE market prices [...]
>Have you had a basic economics course?
Have _you_? And if you did, did you *pass*???
-Iain, who --really-- wishes he went to whatever school you did
Joe Schober
>Ebay is only remotely related to free market economy. It's more
>like free market's idiot brother-in-law, exploitive market.
>Where people who are unaware are regularly duped into paying
>more than an item is worth (again based on resale value...how
>many people are prepared to give $6K for a MM besides the, uh,
>fellow who bought it.
I hate to say it, but Ebay is strongly related to free market economy. There
are actually a lot of good buys to be found on Ebay, 'slong as you 1) do your
research on the product you're buying, 2) you have the self-control to set a
bidding limit and STICK to it. I'm sure a lot of people here have gotten good
(or even insanely good) deals on Ebay... catch is, humans tend to remember the
"bad" experiences much more strongly than the good ones.
Anyway, in case you don't think Ebay is very similar to the offline free market
economy, let me cite just a few examples off the top of my head:
- The stock market. Nevermind $6,000 for a Medieval Madness; there are
countless people who've lost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars by
throwing money at OvernightWonder.com. (And to Steve: YES, you most certainly
can examine the "product" [company] before buying it [stock]. All publicly
listed companies must publish annual reports, make other SEC filings, and most
make regular press releases. This information is all available for your
examination. In fact, anyone who invests in stock without doing such research
is GAMBLING, not investing. Same can be said of Ebay bidders!)
- The New Beetle (VW) craze. A couple years ago when the New Beetle came out,
people were offering 50% over list price for a product that hadn't even been
released yet. What's worse, automobiles pretty much lead the list of products
that drop in value as soon as you get them. What's worse still, these people
did this knowing full well that there was going to be PLENTY of production of
these things! Far different from MM's, with a fixed or even declining supply.
- Coca-Cola. Huh? Sure: anyone who walks into a 7-Eleven and pays $1.69 for
2 litres of SUGAR WATER is clearly paying far more than the item is worth.
Happens a million times a day.
Keeping those examples in mind -- and I can come up with plenty more, if you
want -- tell me again that Ebay is so different from the free market.
--Joe, amateur financial analyst :-)
Crawdad
> through, a willing buyer just paid a willing seller $6,000 for a MM.
> Just because you don't think MM is worth $6,000 doesn't mean that
Um, yeah I have had a basic economics course, but I don't think that is the
point here. When you say E-Bay prices are fair market prices I agree only
so far as they are fair market prices to a select few uneducated people.
Just because a MM goes for $6k on E bay doesn't mean that all MM pins are
worth that. Using that kind of thinking one could say that when the next
one goes for $5500 it went for below market value. I don't think so.
E bay is not a reflection of the market, E-bay is like any other business.
One example is how a person can make more money based on how good their ad
is. How many times have people posted about ad's on here that have fuzzy
pictures, or photos that were taken a mile away. I could put a MM on E-bay
and take a pic a mile away and then put the same one on with good pics and I
garentee that the one with good pictures will sell for considerably more.
IMHO the outrageous prices on e-bay are nothing more than un educated people
not knowing where else to look. If you were only to look at e bay then you
would probably figure out that WMS is not making pins anymore and if you
want one you better get one now. What they don't realize is that there are
other companies that are producing pins and even though WMS is out of
business their favorite pins wouldn't be produced anyway, I think WMS was
producing this little thing called Pinball 2000. Saying that whatever price
a pin gets on e bay at market value is like saying that what my local car
dealer sells cars for is market value. All I have to do is educate myself
and come to the realization that there is another car dealer in the next
town over and viola, the same car for $3k less.
Steve
Good post, Joe. I certainly agree that E-bay is strongly related to a
free market economy. Of course, you are also right about the
financial disclosures required by the SEC, but the information
available about the companies traded on the stock market still leaves
alot to be desired (as is true of the products on E-bay). Companies
are only required to file financial statements at regular
intervals--if you happen to be buying sometime other than right after
an earnings release, you're still "in the dark" about the companies'
most current and accurate financial data. In the stock market, as in
E-bay, the most current and accurate information is possessed by the
sellers--and, like you said, it's up to the buyers to do their
homework.
Tillman in Texas
<codyNO...@cpsinet.com.invalid> wrote:
> When Stern gets a few decent games
>released (and hopefully IllPin too) this should correct.
"ill pin"? Perhaps that should be reconsidered. Who wants a game
that's born sickly? :-)
Tillman
Russel Willoughby
wrote:
>Like it or not, Ebay prices ARE market prices--if the sale goes
>through, a willing buyer just paid a willing seller $6,000 for a MM.
>Just because you don't think MM is worth $6,000 doesn't mean that
>$6,000 isn't market price. Have you had a basic economics course?
I'll take issue with this notion that the maximum price paid ANYWHERE
for an MM is now the "market price". What if tomorrow, another auction
for an MM ends up on eBay with a maximum bid of $3500, not even
meeting the reserve? Will $3500 then be the "market price" for an MM?
Of course not. You've got to throw out the high and the low and then
take the average if you want to get a reasonable idea of what the
"market value" is.
I do agree that eBay is a good example of a free market in action,
though. It's so dynamic, it's actually almost like a caricature of a
free market in action.
>Bottom line: you seem to be blaming a free market (that you describe
>as "exploitive") for higher pin prices. If you don't like the free
>market system, feel free to suggest some other economic system that
>works. Until you do, don't blame a free market for higher pin prices.
>It's purely just a matter of supply and demand.
Well, the free market IS to blame for rising pinball prices. However,
without a free market, this whole discussion wouldn't be happening at
all, because there would be no pinball machines (not like we've come
to know them, anyway).
As someone who loves pinball, and loves the hobby of owning and
playing pinball at home, I am, however, personally irritated by the
eBay effect on prices. Inflated pinball prices are threatening to take
the game of pinball out of the hands of those who love and care for
it, and into the hands of the rich. (I understand that these two
groups are not mutually exclusive, but they're certainly not mutually
inclusive.)
Russel Willoughby
<< rus...@bellsouth.net >>
Steve
Willoughby) wrote:
>I'll take issue with this notion that the maximum price paid ANYWHERE
>for an MM is now the "market price". What if tomorrow, another auction
>for an MM ends up on eBay with a maximum bid of $3500, not even
>meeting the reserve? Will $3500 then be the "market price" for an MM?
>Of course not. You've got to throw out the high and the low and then
>take the average if you want to get a reasonable idea of what the
>"market value" is.
Maybe it is just a matter of semantics--and I haven't done a good job
of articulating my thoughts. I'm not saying that $6,000 is "the"
market price for a MM. If the sale goes through, I'm saying that one
willing buyer paid one willing seller $6,000 for a MM--so that was "a"
market price--for that particular item on that particular day. I
actually agree with your idea of trying to get an average if you were
trying to determine "the" market price of a MM, but I'm not sure about
throwing out the high and the low sales. On the stock market, the
high and low trades are reported at the end of each day to give
investors an idea of how trading went for that day. Think about it:
I'll bet every owner of a MM is reconsidering what their MM is "worth"
to them after learning about this auction!
>I do agree that eBay is a good example of a free market in action,
>though. It's so dynamic, it's actually almost like a caricature of a
>free market in action.
Agreed.
>Well, the free market IS to blame for rising pinball prices. However,
>without a free market, this whole discussion wouldn't be happening at
>all, because there would be no pinball machines (not like we've come
>to know them, anyway).
I disagree here. I don't blame a free market for rising pin prices--I
blame limited supply. That's two different things.
>As someone who loves pinball, and loves the hobby of owning and
>playing pinball at home, I am, however, personally irritated by the
>eBay effect on prices. Inflated pinball prices are threatening to take
>the game of pinball out of the hands of those who love and care for
>it, and into the hands of the rich. (I understand that these two
>groups are not mutually exclusive, but they're certainly not mutually
>inclusive.)
So what system would you use to allocate the limited supply of pins?
Would you try to measure how much each person "loves and cares" for
pinball, and only those who "measure up" can buy pins? I think the
free market economy is the absolute best way to allocate ANY kind of
resource--including pinballs. My issue with all of the complaints
about E-bay on this NG is that many folks seem to be blaming what is
essentially a free market system for rising pinball prices. I know
E-bay is not perfect, but even with its problems, it is, as you put
it, a caricature of the free market economy. Again, if someone knows
of a better system out there for allocating limited resources, by all
means share it!
Ryan Avery
> Think about it:
> I'll bet every owner of a MM is reconsidering what their MM is "worth"
> to them after learning about this auction!
Exactly - and do you know what every MM seller in the future will put on
their website?
"One MM just sold here on E-Bay for $6000, and this machine is in better
condition than that one!"
Of course, now they'll all want to get $6000, so that'll be their reserves
for the next 3 months until they realize that there's no one else that's
going to be willing to pay that much. Whoever said it, I agree with you:
I'd rather buy a WCS, a STTNG, a CV, and a TZ...
--
Ryan Avery ICQ# 17490198
ry...@ryanavery.com
Pinball: http://www.ryanavery.com
Music: http://listensmart.ryanavery.com
Or get my CD "Synaesthetic" at http://mp3.ryanavery.com
Stelter
The playing field is STILL level! It's just that the level has moved up
since Ebay came along.
I used to sell games like High Speed for $500.00 locally or to people "in
the hobby". Now I sell them on Ebay for $800.00.
BUT GUESS WHAT?!?!?!?!
I used to BUY them as is at coin op shows or locally for $300.00 or so.
NOW (with Ebay and the net) I have to PAY $600.00 to get them because
EVERYONE ELSE is also getting more for their games!
It's true of just about everything. I used to find stuff like Partridge
Family lunch boxes for $5.00 and sell them for $35.00. Now I can sell them
on Ebay for $100.00, but even the old ladies at rummage sales have their
grand kids checking prices on Ebay , so I have to pay $75.00 for the same
item!
I agree that I wish that I had bought more games like TZ and TAF when I
could have bought them for $600.00 each as-is and unshopped. But I didn't.
And Guess what else?!?!?
My IJ, CFTBL, and others are climbing in value right along with everyone
else's!
Would I pay $6,000.00 for a MM?
NOPE!
Would I pay $3,000.00 for a MM?
Only to resell!
But that does NOT mean that the value of a MM less than $6,000.00.
It just means that my retirement fund and kid's college fund is more
important than a MM.
If someone's got the extra $$$, more power to 'em!
Ryan Avery <Ryan....@Colorado.edu> wrote in message
news:3925BAF8...@Colorado.edu...
Silver Unicorn
Russel Willoughby
wrote:
>Maybe it is just a matter of semantics--and I haven't done a good job
>of articulating my thoughts. I'm not saying that $6,000 is "the"
>market price for a MM. If the sale goes through, I'm saying that one
>willing buyer paid one willing seller $6,000 for a MM--so that was "a"
>market price--for that particular item on that particular day. I
>actually agree with your idea of trying to get an average if you were
>trying to determine "the" market price of a MM, but I'm not sure about
>throwing out the high and the low sales. On the stock market, the
>high and low trades are reported at the end of each day to give
>investors an idea of how trading went for that day. Think about it:
>I'll bet every owner of a MM is reconsidering what their MM is "worth"
>to them after learning about this auction!
If I were trying to find an average value for a particular game, I
would throw out the absurdly high and absurdly low prices because they
are flukes. They don't really say anything about the true value of the
item, and there is a strong possibility that they are not legitimate
prices that anyone has paid.
In the case of the auction that started this thread, I'm pretty sure
that the $6000 bid was not legitimate, and the highest real bid was
the next lower one (around $4000, I think).
As for MM owners reconsidering the "worth" of their games: I guess
that depends on why they bought the game in the first place. I suspect
that most people who currently own MMs bought them because they loved
the game, and rising prices on eBay are not going to tempt them.
I'm sure operators and other resellers are watching the rising prices
with keen personal interest, and will use eBay examples as
justification for charging higher prices if they can.
>>Well, the free market IS to blame for rising pinball prices. However,
>>without a free market, this whole discussion wouldn't be happening at
>>all, because there would be no pinball machines (not like we've come
>>to know them, anyway).
>
>I disagree here. I don't blame a free market for rising pin prices--I
>blame limited supply. That's two different things.
Limited supply is also a large factor. But it's the free market that
allows prices to rise and fall so rapidly, with no real control by
anyone.
>So what system would you use to allocate the limited supply of pins?
>Would you try to measure how much each person "loves and cares" for
>pinball, and only those who "measure up" can buy pins? I think the
>free market economy is the absolute best way to allocate ANY kind of
>resource--including pinballs. My issue with all of the complaints
>about E-bay on this NG is that many folks seem to be blaming what is
>essentially a free market system for rising pinball prices. I know
>E-bay is not perfect, but even with its problems, it is, as you put
>it, a caricature of the free market economy. Again, if someone knows
>of a better system out there for allocating limited resources, by all
>means share it!
I have no suggestions for better systems of pinball distribution (or
the distribution of general wealth, for that matter). Certain pinball
machines are currently hot collectibles, and prices are going to be
high for a while on these games. There is no way around it that I can
see.
However, it does suck that I won't be able to afford an MM anytime in
the near future.
Russel Willoughby
<< rus...@bellsouth.net >>
Dick Balaska
>We have all seen instances where someone is paying more for a
>USED item, where they can get the IDENTICAL item, BRAND NEW at a
>local store for less. This, in and of itself tells me that Ebay
>is far from being perfect, nor is it economy related at all.
But this is not an ebay phenomenon. Back in '76 i was trolling junkyards
looking for front fenders for my VW beetle. Found an OK right one for $50.
Couldn't find a left one, so i went to the VW dealer where i was FORCED to pay
$30 for a brand new left one. Boy did i feel stupid.
DIK
http://www.buckosoft.com/pinball/
favorite game voting and high scores database at
http://www.buckosoft.com/pinball/pbd/
Dick Balaska
-0700:
>MM seems to be writing its own rules with regard to demand for the game and
>prices people will pay for it. Here's how I would attempt to explain it the
>rising MM prices, and also pins in general:
>
>* First, MM is just a damned great game in every sense. This has been
>debated ad nauseum on rgp, so suffice to say that many of us (myself
>included) believe MM is the best '90s pin, period.
Last week i learned that if you have Royal Madness lit, and start Battle for the
Kingdom, it *gives* you the Royal Madness including the extra ball!
(though yet again, i didn't finish BFTK :( )
>
>* The strong US economy in general has created a lot (and I mean a LOT) of
>"loose change". Heck, if you made $500K playing the market in the last 2
>years, what's $6K for that trophy game?
I keep wondering how so many people can afford $400K+ houses, which is about all
they build anywhere these days.
>
>* Williams bailing out of the pin business means there's a fixed supply of
>desirable games,
No, it is not a fixed supply; it is a dwindling supply. Since replacement parts
are not being made, soon (3-5 years soon) machines will have to become parts
machines to replace busted trolls and back glasses will get broken.
FA: 9++ MM RARE! YOU CAN HARDLY SEE THE GLUE MARKS!!