Wayne is a scumbag, again
phoenixarcade.com
beating a dead horse.
Wayne tried contracting with my printer using MY art recreations to
reprint everything I made. When alerted of this I reminded my printer
of the exlcusive contract I had with them not to reprint any of my
pinball art with anyone else. That way I know the time and money I
spent having these art files recreated wont be handed over to someone
else for free. Yet Wayne tried strong arming them. My printer phoned me
to make me aware of the situation and I told them I will not release
them out of the contract.
Wayne was offered a 25% royalty of each sale and rejected it, which is
his right. He isnt a reasonable businessman in my opinion.
Making matters worse was his demands that my printer turn over my art
files because they belong to him! Wayne has told many people he has as
many as 500 cd's full of art files. Why does he need mine? And why
doesn't he print something that hasnt already been done? You know,
stuff people need. Why cant he find his own printer? He kept telling me
he was going to use the original printers that Williams used to
contract with. What happened to them?
I sent Wayne an email the other night but didnt get a reply. Oh well,
he is in my killfile now. For some reason I kept thinking he would
eventually come around and take the 25% offer.
btw, you guys better hope Gene does FH playfields because as of right
now, Wayne apparently doesnt have any art, he was trying to use mine!
frenchy
many as 500 cd's full of art files. Why does he need mine?>>>
Cus he tried putting the CD's in his CD player and it just went
"bzzzzchaaawwwwzzzzzss-s-s-s-s-s-s!!"
ArcadeRehab.com
Boycott on.
Which is really easy since this guy has done absolutely *NOTHING* for
pinball and has nothing to offer! In fact, everything TPF has done to date
has been detrimental to pinball!
'"the pirate days are over" - Wayne Gillard
Who's the pirate now! Shame on you!
"phoenixarcade.com" <azarca...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1134107160....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Nwojedi
JB
"Dishonest....Low!"
-JB
"phoenixarcade.com" <azarca...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1134107160....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Donnie Barnes
> You already know the drill of whats already been said. This isnt
> beating a dead horse.
>
> Wayne tried contracting with my printer using MY art recreations to
> reprint everything I made. When alerted of this I reminded my printer
> of the exlcusive contract I had with them not to reprint any of my
> pinball art with anyone else. That way I know the time and money I
> spent having these art files recreated wont be handed over to someone
> else for free. Yet Wayne tried strong arming them. My printer phoned me
> to make me aware of the situation and I told them I will not release
> them out of the contract.
>
> Wayne was offered a 25% royalty of each sale and rejected it, which is
> his right. He isnt a reasonable businessman in my opinion.
*sigh* That sucks.
> Making matters worse was his demands that my printer turn over my art
> files because they belong to him! Wayne has told many people he has as
> many as 500 cd's full of art files. Why does he need mine? And why
> doesn't he print something that hasnt already been done? You know,
> stuff people need. Why cant he find his own printer? He kept telling me
> he was going to use the original printers that Williams used to
> contract with. What happened to them?
I'm sure he has CDs from Williams. I'm also pretty sure it's a garbled
mess as from what I understand they didn't have great methods of keeping
track of that stuff. They had *decent* methods of finding their own old
stuff because they had a lot of long time employees, but once things were
shut down and folks started leaving, the archives went to shambles. I'd
bet you anything he doesn't have any useful electronic data for games that
are much older than 1995, and even that may be optimistic.
That's all purely speculation on my part based on fourteenth hand
information I've gotten. Well, okay, the info isn't *that* far removed,
but it's definitely not firsthand.
> I sent Wayne an email the other night but didnt get a reply. Oh well,
> he is in my killfile now. For some reason I kept thinking he would
> eventually come around and take the 25% offer.
>
> btw, you guys better hope Gene does FH playfields because as of right
> now, Wayne apparently doesnt have any art, he was trying to use mine!
Again, not surprising since Funhouse is such an "old" game in terms of
electronic artwork. Remember what computers were like in 1990 and imagine
how many different desktop machines people at WMS would have had since
then. Then remember that in 1990 there wouldn't have been CD-ROMs to
archive to at work...it would have been on tape. Imagine the chances of
those tapes surviving and being readable now. I'm doubting in the
corporate environment anyone at WMS bothered to move stuff off the tapes to
CDs later...there wouldn't have been any reason since they never did later
runs of any major FH parts that I know of.
In short, it ain't good. :( He really ought to take the 25% -or- buy that
artwork from you. I know he owns the rights to sell it, but a lot of work
did go into making printable art out of good original stuff. He should be
willing to pay a reasonable price for it.
That said, if you want it well protected, get your own copy and ask the
printer to destroy their copy. He stands a much better chance of
strong-arming them out of it than you.
--Donnie
--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.
PinWesr
TPF, then there he will quickly find out that he is not selling his
products. Second to that, if TPF does come out with a game, who will
service them ? If he ( TPF ) has left a bad taste in the pinball
community in general, people might just refuse to service them and
there becomes a bg problem for TPF.
What if distributors but a certain # of games but people do not buy
them ? Will TPF stop making games/ parts and just sit on the rights ?
I cannot imagine that TPF would invest that much $$, only to sit on
the rights.
Something has got to give and I think that eventually, with pressure,
TPF will come to realize that without the public to buy the
parts/games,TPF is left with a very expensive piece of paper.
David...
On 8 Dec 2005 21:46:00 -0800, "phoenixarcade.com"
Manic
"Donnie Barnes" <djbSPA...@donniebarnes.com> wrote in message
news:slrndpiaii.7f...@localhost.localdomain...
> On Fri, 09 Dec, phoenixarcade.com wrote:
> > You already know the drill of whats already been said. This isnt
> > beating a dead horse.
> >
> > Wayne tried contracting with my printer using MY art recreations to
> > reprint everything I made. When alerted of this I reminded my printer
> > of the exlcusive contract I had with them not to reprint any of my
> > pinball art with anyone else. That way I know the time and money I
> > spent having these art files recreated wont be handed over to someone
> > else for free. Yet Wayne tried strong arming them. My printer phoned me
> > to make me aware of the situation and I told them I will not release
> > them out of the contract.
> >
> > Wayne was offered a 25% royalty of each sale and rejected it, which is
> > his right. He isnt a reasonable businessman in my opinion.
>
> *sigh* That sucks.
That's interesting. So if you have someone print something for you they
have the right to keep the data? Why would they feel they have the right to do
*anything* with the customers work? Unless they have it in writing that they
can keep the data why can't the customer demand the work be destroyed
and then threaten to sue if they see it has been sold?
Seems like "the printer" is the one holding all the cards :-(
Manic
news:ckcip1p95dcp8j98c...@4ax.com...
> If everyone boycott TPF's products and any products connected with
> TPF, then there he will quickly find out that he is not selling his
> products.
Hey in a hobby when people see something they can't get
elsewhere... they'll buy it. That much is certain... look how many
people still buy from Dick Cheese and Barry White :-(
Second to that, if TPF does come out with a game, who will
> service them ? If he ( TPF ) has left a bad taste in the pinball
> community in general, people might just refuse to service them and
> there becomes a bg problem for TPF.
Not when there is money to made... IF there is money to made that is.
> What if distributors but a certain # of games but people do not buy
> them ? Will TPF stop making games/ parts and just sit on the rights ?
> I cannot imagine that TPF would invest that much $$, only to sit on
> the rights.
No they'll probably get resold for pennies on the dollar after
this performance to somebody that will do even less with them.
> Something has got to give and I think that eventually, with pressure,
> TPF will come to realize that without the public to buy the
> parts/games,TPF is left with a very expensive piece of paper.
If he comes up with anything people actually WANT then there's
money to be made down the chain. For him, distributors, etc... people
are very forgiving when they want something or if there is potential
profit.
>
> David...
>
>
>
milt
> Making matters worse was his demands that my printer turn over my art
> files because they belong to him! Wayne has told many people he has as
> many as 500 cd's full of art files. Why does he need mine? And why
> doesn't he print something that hasnt already been done? You know,
> stuff people need. Why cant he find his own printer? He kept telling me
> he was going to use the original printers that Williams used to
> contract with. What happened to them?
>
I'd venture to say he was full of shit and doesn't have nearly
everything he said he had and his whole scheme seems to be to C&D
everyone out of of the repro biz and steal THEIR work for his benefit,
great way to get a business going!
milt
> If everyone boycott TPF's products and any products connected with
> TPF, then there he will quickly find out that he is not selling his
> products.
Pretty easy to do right now as there really isn't any products to speak
of. Wayne has made this VERY easy, to boycott at least, too bad he's
showing himself to be a cancer to the pinball hobby. Sure doesn't make
it easier for those of us yet to snag their first machine, in fact it
makes it a scary thing!
TheKorn
news:1134107160....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Wayne tried contracting with my printer using MY art recreations to
> reprint everything I made. When alerted of this I reminded my printer
> of the exlcusive contract I had with them not to reprint any of my
> pinball art with anyone else. That way I know the time and money I
> spent having these art files recreated wont be handed over to someone
> else for free. Yet Wayne tried strong arming them. My printer phoned me
> to make me aware of the situation and I told them I will not release
> them out of the contract.
Get the artwork out of the printer; tell them to destroy any and all
copies they have. Then it's easy for them, no conflict.
Wayne can ask that the files be destroyed, and he can also claim damages.
But he can't claim ownership of those files. IANAL, of course.
MPAA doesn't "own" the pirated movie files out there. They own the
rights to the original movies, and can (rightfully) ask that the pirate
copies be destroyed.
> Wayne was offered a 25% royalty of each sale and rejected it, which is
> his right. He isnt a reasonable businessman in my opinion.
That's... amazing to me. That's a far larger royalty than is customary
in any -other- industry, and still turning it down. He must think it's
personal. Bad business decision in my book either way. (Hey, if you
offer -me- FREE MONEY, I'd take it!!)
Donnie Barnes
> That's interesting. So if you have someone print something for you they
> have the right to keep the data?
Nope.
> Why would they feel they have the right to do
> *anything* with the customers work?
They generally wouldn't feel like they have the "right" to. What's
happening here is that the real "owner" of the copyright is trying to
*make* them give him that work. Which he may or may not be able to do.
> Unless they have it in writing that they
> can keep the data why can't the customer demand the work be destroyed
> and then threaten to sue if they see it has been sold?
They should be able to.
> Seems like "the printer" is the one holding all the cards :-(
They are while they have that data, yeah.
Mark W
and shitty business man you are?
Look I'm a home user (like the rest of you guys) I enjoy restroing pins
with a few local friends. Wayne sending these C&D letters left right
and center doesnt help anyone at all. Who the hell wants to order
sideart from australia at inflated prices with enormous shipping costs?
(Sideart he probably doesnt have any intention of ever reproducing) I'm
all for boycotting wayne, dick. He is hurting the small businesses
(whats left of them) that sell parts etc. I'm all for buying
blackmarket/pirated art, stick it to the man!
Sorry to vent just my 2 cents.
Mark
Abby Normal
gpc...@yahoo.com
saturated in the market like MM and Fish Tale cabinet decals?
We need new, fresh stuff
my two cents
Gary/Arizona
Karl
Abby Normal wrote:
> Has anyone gotten a real C&D letter? Or just email?
This is a great quetion, If I were selling parts and I got one of these
emails I would tell them I do not recognize their athority until I hear
an order from the court. The Court system I would obey, not some email
from some guy. Make him go through the proper channels and don't roll
over so easy. Keep on selling parts until then!!!!!!!!!
Has this happened????
Karl.
ATL FUN
making Gene look like a pinball dynamo. At least, Gene's alliance with
people like Jeff, Kerry, and CPR provides hope for the future and we
have seen some progress. Jeff has continued to put out small decal
projects, Centaur pf's looks like a reality, and BBB is at least
heading forward and Kerry Stair is a welcomed addition to the BBB team.
Brian
pinballjim
phoenixarcade.com wrote:
> My printer phoned me
> to make me aware of the situation and I told them I will not release
> them out of the contract.
Get over it, that contract is over an illegal product and can't be
enforced.
Watching you take any part of that to court would be hilarious and
you'd get your ass handed to you.
You took a risk when you invested your time and resources on
counterfeit products, you got burned, end of story.
Abby Normal
questionable, IMHO. Two wrongs and all.
gpc...@yahoo.com
Darin did the work ...
This is all too confusing ....
We need teams of lawyers to sort everything out and no one is producing
any product for collectors
confused ...
Gary/Arizona
SpecialWhenLit
of the files.
phoenixarcade.com
pinballjim wrote:
> Get over it, that contract is over an illegal product and can't be
> enforced.
>
> Watching you take any part of that to court would be hilarious and
> you'd get your ass handed to you.
>
> You took a risk when you invested your time and resources on
> counterfeit products, you got burned, end of story.
If this really is your take on it, you dont know the law. Keep trolling
for attention.
fwiw, my printer flew down from Washington to meet with me personally
on Wednesday night to discuss this. They will honor the agreement we
have. Only a court order (which wont happen) will force them to turn
over my art files.
Lastly, Ive NEVER been served a c&d from Wayne or Williams. NEVER!
kirb
----Shakes head----
Too confusing to the master of commerce? Teams of Lawyers? Drop the
drama already.
Darin was making artwork without any problems (illegal or not, doesn't
matter)
Wayne bought "something" and now WMS gets wayne to go out and enforce
copyrights (that is the whole part that I found funny- WMS got someone
to pay for, and do their dirty work)
Darin can't get wayne to agree to reasonable terms for his work
Wayne is trying to get his hands on Darin's work to find an easy way
out by stong arming the printer.
Printer can destroy the work without any problems that I can see.
Let Wayne go back to Darin (HA!)
What I would do is go to the printer, have all the files destroyed,
Darin keep copies, tell Wayne to go fly a kite....That is what ---I---
would do.
Kirb
kirb
phoenixarcade.com wrote:
> fwiw, my printer flew down from Washington to meet with me personally
> on Wednesday night to discuss this. They will honor the agreement we
> have. Only a court order (which wont happen) will force them to turn
> over my art files.
>
> Lastly, Ive NEVER been served a c&d from Wayne or Williams. NEVER!
Tell them to destroy the files so that only YOU have a copy.
Kirb
GA Pinhead
have your address for the retainer bill. We and they appreciate your
offer to pay for the lawyers to straighten this up.
John!
pinballjim
Hey, I'm not an expert, but I've sat through two semesters of business
law.
Here's a primer for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_law#Validity_of_contracts
Peter K
doing something good to pinball rather then pissing everyone off !!!!!
kirb
Peter K wrote:
> 25% royalty seems fair to me. What an asshole! Why doesn't he start
> doing something good to pinball rather then pissing everyone off !!!!!
24% is resaonable? Maybe in your world, but the real world is LUCKY to
get 20%. 25% is a GIFT....that is on top of the markup he needs to run
a business!
Waynes 400% markup he claims is only after HE gets done setting the
prices.
Kirb
Josh A.
> 24% is resaonable? Maybe in your world, but the real world is LUCKY to
> get 20%. 25% is a GIFT....that is on top of the markup he needs to run
> a business!
The royalty percentage probably wasn't the sticking point for Wayne.
If he'd cut a deal with Darin, he wouldn't have had any way to verify
how many units Darin actually sold in order to calculate his royalty.
Suppose Darin told Wayne that he sold ten FH cab decal sets during
October, how would Wayne know that he hadn't really sold fifteen?
Wayne doesn't trust anybody, which is why he told Treasurecove that
he'd have to buy 200 licenses pre-sale ($12,000 up front) before TC
sold even one decal:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/1d62d27f7182ac57
The only way Wayne can be sure that he's not getting ripped off by his
suppliers is to make the damn things himself and then sell them
himself. His paranoia is certainly understandable--when you're out to
screw everyone, you think that everyone is out to screw you, too.
Vic Ireland
protections filed on a TON of Williams/Bally artwork, and enforcement
was lax on protecting the stuff they had. If you can be proven to
neglect your copyrights, you lose them. Why did Gene go back and try
to copyright artwork years after the fact? Because Williams didn't,
and he saw the possibility of going to court in the future. Will that
move help? Dunno, but it seems unlikely. What a mess.
On 9 Dec 2005 07:26:08 -0800, "pinballjim" <pinba...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Donnie Barnes
In absence of attempted enforcement by WMS, there is no illegal artwork.
Remember that copyright must be *enforced* by the owner or it is lost.
Darin isn't engaging in anything illegal until WMS *tries* to stop him.
Even then Darin could contest the issue in court if he chose since so much
has transpired since they've defended it. But until WMS or Wayne at least
*tries* via an *official* C&D, he is in the clear. Since he's said he's
never gotten so much as a C&D, I'd assume he could still be *selling*
products if he wanted. I'm sure Wayne has made it clear he will get his
first C&D if he does, which is why he exited gracefully. But in absence of
one, that contract with his printer is completely legal, from what I can
tell.
The other thing is by exiting gracefully (and without the C&D), Darin
protected his artwork from Wayne's seizure (and I'm not sure he could have
it seized anyway, just destroyed, as others have stated). There's no
"damages" from sitting on those files, so there's no claim available to
Wayne. I'm guessing that's at least part of why Darin exited like he did.
Folks, Darin has been through this already with other companies and has
had *real* legal advice. To try to act like you know more than him on this
issue is pretty silly, IMHO.
--Donnie
Vic Ireland
whatever they have and make sure they've destroyed all copies of the
artwork you did that they have?
On 9 Dec 2005 08:00:00 -0800, "phoenixarcade.com"
Vic Ireland
On 9 Dec 2005 08:08:19 -0800, "pinballjim" <pinba...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Donnie Barnes
> Why is Wayne even wasting his time on stuff that has been totally
> saturated in the market like MM and Fish Tale cabinet decals?
>
> We need new, fresh stuff
Agreed 100%. There's a market for more of what's already been done, but it
is *way* smaller than the market for games that haven't been done yet. A
lot of people bought that stuff that has been done just to sit on in case
it wasn't available, so it's still out there to be had, in fact. Prices
may go up a tad on some of it, but new stuff is what we really need.
--Donnie
Donnie Barnes
> The royalty percentage probably wasn't the sticking point for Wayne.
> If he'd cut a deal with Darin, he wouldn't have had any way to verify
> how many units Darin actually sold in order to calculate his royalty.
> Suppose Darin told Wayne that he sold ten FH cab decal sets during
> October, how would Wayne know that he hadn't really sold fifteen?
> Wayne doesn't trust anybody, which is why he told Treasurecove that
> he'd have to buy 200 licenses pre-sale ($12,000 up front) before TC
> sold even one decal:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/1d62d27f7182ac57
>
> The only way Wayne can be sure that he's not getting ripped off by his
> suppliers is to make the damn things himself and then sell them
> himself. His paranoia is certainly understandable--when you're out to
> screw everyone, you think that everyone is out to screw you, too.
A most excellent point.
gpc...@yahoo.com
If you are such an expert and you have so much $$$$, why don't you get
on the phone with Wayne, buy the entire package of rights from him and
be done with it?
Wayne is obviously struggling in a lot of ways
So you help the hobby out and bring the rights to North Carolina
You are popular up here, everyone seems to like you
Do it for the hobby ...
just my two cents
Gary/Arizona
icetre
Mark C. Spaeth
: I have just contacted Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe in Boston MA. I already
: have your address for the retainer bill. We and they appreciate your
: offer to pay for the lawyers to straighten this up.
They're in Harvard Square in Cambridge, not Boston.
--
Mark Spaeth msp...@mtl.mit.edu
50 Vassar St., #38.265 msp...@mit.edu
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 452-2354 http://rgvac.978.org/~mspaeth
Mark Clayton
whether it's enforced or not. There are statutory damages (i.e. automatic
penalties) for people that knowingly violate a copyright, but if the owner
can show a loss of business or diminishment of the value of the property,
additional damages can be claimed. A C&D is one way of helping a
copyright owner establish these facts, and nothing more.
A trademark needs to be defended or it may be lost.
-Mark
--
http://pinballpal.com/
"Donnie Barnes" <djbSPA...@donniebarnes.com> wrote in message news:slrndpjeo2.8k...@localhost.localdomain...
Cliffy
can be a deciding factor in a civil case.
In any case, Wayne is just plain being devious in his methods and it
disturbs me no end that he continues to try an end run around Darin.
Darin has always been up front and was more than willing to work with
Wayne and Gene.
Vic Ireland wrote:
> It's not really that black and white given that there were no
> protections filed on a TON of Williams/Bally artwork, and enforcement
> was lax on protecting the stuff they had. If you can be proven to
> neglect your copyrights, you lose them. Why did Gene go back and try
> to copyright artwork years after the fact? Because Williams didn't,
> and he saw the possibility of going to court in the future. Will that
> move help? Dunno, but it seems unlikely. What a mess.
>
--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
A passion for pinball!
http://www.passionforpinball.com
kirb
You can't argue with that....
Kirb
gpc...@yahoo.com
for the rights and then proceeded to produce so little?
I don't get it ....
And what is the point of doing stuff that Darin has already done?
It's saturated ... people offer that stuff up for sale all the time and
there is no big rush to grab it
We need NEW stuff ....
The whole legal discussion is nuts, because no one is going to court
over some stupid pinball parts
Wayne has been effective in shutting down Ebay auctions
I want to know why we always get stuck with the guys that buy things
from WMS, but then don't give us anything to buy from them
I really believe at this point Donnie Barnes would be a much better
alternative
Let's start a draft DB movement
Dazed and Confused in AZ
=)
Gary/Arizona
TheKorn
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> It's hard to believe, but even you Korn have to admit, that Wayne is
> making Gene look like a pinball dynamo. At least, Gene's alliance with
> people like Jeff, Kerry, and CPR provides hope for the future and we
> have seen some progress. Jeff has continued to put out small decal
> projects, Centaur pf's looks like a reality, and BBB is at least
> heading forward and Kerry Stair is a welcomed addition to the BBB team.
Wellll... Jeff is making parts under license from Wayne, and Wayne is
producing other parts at almost cheap prices. So the distance between
Wayne and Gene may not be as large as you think.
mik...@omuonline.net
Only thing that remains constant ehre, is the fact that Wayne is an
asshole! Period and simple.
GA Pinhead
John!
Matt S.
> Making matters worse was his demands that my printer turn over my art
> files because they belong to him!
I was willing to play ball, to support the legal owner of the works...
even with the storm of C&D's shutting down little hobbyist shops. If he
owns the rights, that is his privilege. Unwise, foolish, hostile, sure.
But legit.
But THIS stunt... this is... low.
If you own the rights to a specific piece of artwork, that does not
give you the right to take someone else's infringing artwork as your
own. You can tell them to knock it off, or sue for damages, but that's
it!
Either he is profoundly ignorant, or... well, I'll stop there to be
polite.
I truly hope you prevail in this tug of war.
phoenixarcade.com
Josh A. wrote:
> kirb wrote:
>
> The royalty percentage probably wasn't the sticking point for Wayne.
> If he'd cut a deal with Darin, he wouldn't have had any way to verify
> how many units Darin actually sold in order to calculate his royalty.
> Suppose Darin told Wayne that he sold ten FH cab decal sets during
> October, how would Wayne know that he hadn't really sold fifteen?
> Wayne doesn't trust anybody, which is why he told Treasurecove that
> he'd have to buy 200 licenses pre-sale ($12,000 up front) before TC
> sold even one decal:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/1d62d27f7182ac57
>
> The only way Wayne can be sure that he's not getting ripped off by his
> suppliers is to make the damn things himself and then sell them
> himself. His paranoia is certainly understandable--when you're out to
> screw everyone, you think that everyone is out to screw you, too.
yes there could be some concerns there. however gene never complained
when i offered to give a much larger royalty than he asked for. he just
said heres what i want. so my honesty in that regard at least in genes
eyes should be unquestioned. and since wayne calls there often he could
ask gene.
furthermore, my wife is a cpa and does our books. she would have to
manipulate our quickbooks files in order to hide sales. and if she did
that she would risk losing her cpa license and her full time job. i
also offered to let wayne do an independent quarterly audit. even that
wasnt good enough.
fwiw, im working on a new licensing deal for some pinball parts and
they dont have any trust issues with me. still subject to audit, but
pay quarterly as i sell parts. this type of licensing is done everyday.
drum...@aol.com
I'm not a lawyer so take this for what its worth...
I own a small commercial printing company. When a new customer comes
in and wants me to design artwork for them, I either charge them for it
or i dont. (if im going to print a million copies of it i don't!)
If i dont charge them for the artwork i created, It is MY PROPERTY. I
designed it, i created it, it is mine to do what i like. Can i charge a
fee for it? Hell yes.
can i copyright it? HELL YES! An this is where it gets fun... Lets say
i incorporate the font helvetica into the artwork. I have a "legal"
copy of the font (I payed my licensing fees to buy this font.) What i
choose to do with (helvetica) is mine.
after reading this post i realize it makes no sence, but what im trying
to say is there is a big difference between copyrights and trademarks.
(there is a huge difference)
Did you know that Budwieser has a trademark on the color white (and
red for that matter) on thier cans of beer??
and thats where the laywers get involed.
J>
-Al
Wayne is a worthless, greedy, lying, backstabbing ass-clown! I
realized this as SOON as he started sending out C&D's to Kevin Strasser
for his backboard decals....which were NEVER a part of Williams designs
in the first place! Not to mention when he DENIED being the one behind
the pulling of all the Ebay auctions, which he got caught on when Ebay
flat out said it was him! He's an ass, he's going to be an ass, and
he's going to keep TRYING to stop the black market. However, we ALL
know how to get around that. It doesn't mean that we can't still get
"illegal" parts....maybe they won't be on Ebay, and maybe they won't be
PUBLICLY advertised, but there are MORE than enough of us to support a
black market for WHATEVER we need, no matter what that ASS CLOWN down
in Australia does. Shit, even the Troll Gary is with us on this one!
-Al
kirb
phoenixarcade.com wrote:
> fwiw, im working on a new licensing deal for some pinball parts and
> they dont have any trust issues with me. still subject to audit, but
> pay quarterly as i sell parts. this type of licensing is done everyday.
You have to have some faith in your suppliers. People who want to
micromanage and do everything themselves are control freaks and
impossible to work with. Lack of trust is going to kill profits and put
you in an early grave.
Kirb
kirb
-Al wrote:
> Not to mention when he DENIED being the one behind
> the pulling of all the Ebay auctions, which he got caught on when Ebay
> flat out said it was him!
He paid WMS for whatever. Part of the deal is that he has to enforce
the "rights". WMS got paid to have someone else do something they
didn't want to spend money on. That is the best part of this whole
deal...too bad it hurts the hobby in the end.
> he's going to keep TRYING to stop the black market. However, we ALL
> Shit, even the Troll Gary is with us on this one!
I wouldn't trust a flip-flopper with BM parts. He would turn you in
just for the fun of it.
Kirb
metallik
> Remember that copyright must be *enforced* by the owner or it is lost.
*BZZT* Sorry, but we have some lovely parting gifts for you today.
Trademark must be enforced - copyright is automatic and needn't be
enforced to be valid. You could *maybe* use a history of
non-enforcement to mitigate damages in a civil trial, but copyright
stays valid until it expires at end of term.
> Darin isn't engaging in anything illegal until WMS *tries* to stop him.
So if I download a movie, it is legal unless the MPAA specifically
tries to stop me? :)
> Even then Darin could contest the issue in court if he chose since so much
> has transpired since they've defended it. But until WMS or Wayne at least
Contest it on what grounds?
> never gotten so much as a C&D, I'd assume he could still be *selling*
> products if he wanted. I'm sure Wayne has made it clear he will get his
No. He is comitting infringement as soon as he sells the first decal,
regardless of any C&D letters. There is no provision in the law that
says you must be served with a C&D before it becomes illegal. C&D
letters are sent out so the plaintiffs can show a good-faith effort of
notifying the infringing party that they were violating copyright.
That way, they can justify their damage claims, since the infringer can
no longer claim to be ignorant of the infringement.
dsup...@aol.com
its just the pattern that is trademarked? I don't think it would be
possible to trademark a color.
Anybody know or remember when Harley tried to trademark the sound of
their exhaust??
Brian
Rick Swanson
>
> Anybody know or remember when Harley tried to trademark the sound of
> their exhaust??
>
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000915.html
--
Rick Swanson
Morristown, Tennessee
CARGPB6
Donnie Barnes
A worthy suggestion. Problem is, I don't see Wayne selling. I'm not even
sure he *can* sell...I'm betting his contract probably wouldn't let him.
Either he makes it work or loses his ass. If he can sell and wants to, he
knows where to find me. I've made it clear that I contacted WMS and
expressed my interest in all this on more than one occasion and to multiple
people at WMS and did so before Wayne even entered the picture.
I don't know why they chose to sell things like they did. But all signs
point to the fact that WMS hopes it fails or at the very least doesn't
flourish. No, I'm not saying *I* was a clearcut "winner" to make it
flourish, but I can say for sure that they quoted me a $10M price tag for
all those "rights" (and not much else in the way of anything
tangible...Gene got that before I had the means to do so), and I think we'd
all agree that it ain't worth near that. We also know that Wayne got it
for less than $1M. That's in the ball park of where I told them my
interest lied, yet nobody ever got in touch with me when their price
suddenly fell.
Hey, I wish it were that simple. Really. If they had offered it to me for
what he paid, I'd own it right now.
Craig Tiano
You've missed a key point. The disk containing the artwork is, in and
of itself, not illegal. Nor is the "copy" of the artwork, in and of
itself, illegal. One has the right, under US and International (Bern
Convention) copyright law, to make copies for personal and educational
purposes of copyrighted materials. Only when those copies exit the
ownership of the creator do they become illegal.Unless the printer has
been told that the resulting reproductions the printer makes are going
to be sold or transferred in an illegal manner (thereby making the
printer part of a criminal conspiracy), there's nothing inherently
illegal about the contract.
Craig
On 9 Dec 2005 08:08:19 -0800, "pinballjim" <pinba...@hotmail.com>
Donnie Barnes
>> In absence of attempted enforcement by WMS, there is no illegal artwork.
>> Remember that copyright must be *enforced* by the owner or it is lost.
>
> *BZZT* Sorry, but we have some lovely parting gifts for you today.
> Trademark must be enforced - copyright is automatic and needn't be
> enforced to be valid. You could *maybe* use a history of
> non-enforcement to mitigate damages in a civil trial, but copyright
> stays valid until it expires at end of term.
True, you're right. Got them confused, dammit. But you do still have to
prove damages on copyright to have any reason to bother with litigation at
all. That's not to say you can't make someone *stop* by legal means
without damages, but you can't get anything else out of them realistically
unless the damages outweigh the legal costs of winning them, which probably
isn't the case on any illegally produced pinball reproduction to date.
>> Darin isn't engaging in anything illegal until WMS *tries* to stop him.
>
> So if I download a movie, it is legal unless the MPAA specifically
> tries to stop me? :)
Okay, he hasn't damaged them until they say they care. How about that?
:-) The MPAA says they care all the time by going after people
distributing pirated movies.
>> Even then Darin could contest the issue in court if he chose since so much
>> has transpired since they've defended it. But until WMS or Wayne at least
>
> Contest it on what grounds?
You're right. That's the trademark thing. Lack of defense. I'm wrong.
He can't contest it if they prove ownership and the fact that he's abusing
their copyright.
>> never gotten so much as a C&D, I'd assume he could still be *selling*
>> products if he wanted. I'm sure Wayne has made it clear he will get his
>
> No. He is comitting infringement as soon as he sells the first decal,
> regardless of any C&D letters. There is no provision in the law that
> says you must be served with a C&D before it becomes illegal. C&D
> letters are sent out so the plaintiffs can show a good-faith effort of
> notifying the infringing party that they were violating copyright.
> That way, they can justify their damage claims, since the infringer can
> no longer claim to be ignorant of the infringement.
Right. My bad. The basic overriding thing here is still that while they
can stop people doing repros of copyrighted material, rarely could they sue
and win anything considerable in damages (considerable being anything
approaching the cost to litigate in the first place). That's why in many
of these arenas its best to just do it and hope nobody bothers to stop you,
since you probably won't lose unless you get stopped before you recoup your
investment in getting the product done in the first place. *That* can be
the big "if" to someone like Darin, and is probably the biggest reason he
stopped everything.
Damn the confusion on trademark and copyright.
gregb...@hotmail.com
yes you can i.e. Kodak
have a trademark on there name and the "yellow"
used in / on there name ,while they are happy to use other yellows
in the ads, when in come to there "name" it has to be printed (colour
ads)
in "Kodak yellow", and the Ink manufacture can only sell that
ink to" Kodak authorized printers"
now understand Kodak paid to have that new yellow made from scratch
and only Kodak and one ink manufacture have that colour break down
as the manufacturer did this by coming up with a "new base colour"
that base colour can not be used (by agreement) to make any other new
coloured inks.... only Kodak yellow