Why I dislike new Stern Pins and some 90's pins
Slate
Was looking at videos of the new stones pin by stern and do not like
how they use real images on it.
Part of the greatness of TZ and KISS were they used artwork to draw
and not real photos. In todays digital world its simple to print
photos on anything. Its easier for the graphic department as they do
not need an artist but rather a graphic designer.
Look at Whirlwind, Paragon, Strikes and Spares, TOTAN, TZ. The back
glass is a work of art. The Shadow the fubbed it could have been so
much more. But you get my point.
These games with real photos are no classic. Like Stern Batman and
Spiderman? Why use photos of the people in the movie. That sucks. Use
art from the movie and not stupid actors but rather the charracters.
If Stern would have had an artist render the group on a cabinet and
back glass maybe it would be more collectable and appealing than a
giant printer spitting out life like photos.
John
look like bad photoshop collages of actor photos. Pinball art should
be stylised. Video games based off of movies don't just use
photographs and clips lifted from the movie for cutscenes. Part of
the process of developing an art package is to make the art fit the
experience. It is bad cost saving to do anything but. Players need
to be aesthetically drawn into the game. I don't enjoy looking at
Stern machines.
~John~
cody chunn
my comment to Steve R a while back, real artwork lifts pinball above itself
as an amusement device into a work of art. It was one thing that elevated
pinball in spite of the disdain from mothers, politicians and the general
public.
-cody
"Slate" wrote in message
news:1eb3aad4-1e1f-474d...@p16g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
MS
I'd sure rather my LOTR had a TOTAN-quality art package... but if it
was a choice between spending money on quality art or quality
software, Stern made the right call in that case.
Speaking of beautiful games, I had a TOTAN and sold it because it got
boring. I used to want a Fathom because it looks stunning, but after
spending time playing one I scratched it off my list, too.
Sure, some of the Sterns are ugly but you don't play the art package.
Art is the icing, not the cake.
JimB
selling to the home market only......
Rare Hero
With Photoshop, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't....it's a
tool, and it's up to the artist using it to make something nice.
Personally, I think LOTR's playfield looks fantastic. Spider-Man is
pretty good, with a few nitpicks...24 - bleh.
;)
Greg
Slate
> Art is not part of the arcade route experience. Maybe if Stern were
> selling to the home market only......
I disagree, when I go to the pinball hall of fame or Castles and
Coasters I gravitate to the catchy artisitc games.
Same with my son.
Pinball machines since 1940 have been non home marketed and solely
arcade marketed and had art until the late 90's.
I just think they are trying to cut corners and make a quick buck and
move on to the next pin.
The reason I brought this up is I figured a pin company making a game
about a rock group and not flavor of the month like a movie, they
would at least do some art.
Even guns and roses had artwork.
G and R pin will be a classic, this stones will not be. Its a shame,
they could have made it something bigger. Maybe the tongue logo on the
side or ablums they made, etc.
The only thing they go right was the big tongue on the playfield.
Anyway it is what it is. Making a buck now and numbers and units.
Rare Hero
this art....look up Rolling Stones Monopoly...same art as the pin.
Greg
RomulusX
A little slice of Americana!
Abby Normal
> Art is not part of the arcade route experience. Maybe if Stern were
> selling to the home market only......
I disagree. When I was a child the artwork was one of the things that
attracted me to pinball. Before I was old enough to understand the
rules or objectives I was drawn to them because they were pretty.
I also dislike the newer art, I'm less likely to want it in my home.
frenchy
> Agreed. Photoshop should be kept away from pins. Like I tried to impart in
> my comment to Steve R a while back, real artwork lifts pinball above itself
> as an amusement device into a work of art. It was one thing that elevated
> pinball in spite of the disdain from mothers, politicians and the general
> public.>>
I adore all my 'real' artwork EM and SS as much as the next guy, but
with all the licensing of real-people movies and need to cut costs, I
don't blame Stern for using mostly photo stuff. The best combination
Stern's done IMO is LOTR with photos used on the pf as well as line
art, and some terrific movie painting artwork for the translite. Wish
they'd try more pf's where they still use their existing process of
putting the art together with computers, but entirely based on drawn
artwork. To me that's the best of both worlds, then you can use all
the different color shading (as opposed to pure screened inks) plus
it's using more imaginative real artwork. But it's gotta be killer
art to begin with.
Heck I'm still ticked that everybody junked inked glasses and went to
four-color-process translites a looong time ago. Look as close as you
want at a BK glass, you won't see no friggin' dots. : \ But then
I've never based a game purchase or play on the artwork...
Rompen
about the branding and taking advantage of fads, and less about
pinball. In the 70s-90s pinball started to innovate, adding not just
new and interesting themes, but new gameplay dynamics. When Bally/WMS
shut down, Stern was left and they just turned on autopilot and
cranked out machines that were all basically the same except had
different graphics on them, just like what was done in the early days
of pinball. But at least in the early days, there was actual "art"-
work instead of retouched photos or 3D computer graphics. I know what
you mean.
JimB
> On Mar 1, 5:55 pm, JimB <jl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Art is not part of the arcade route experience. Maybe if Stern were
> > selling to the home market only......
> I disagree, when I go to the pinball hall of fame or Castles and
> Coasters I gravitate to the catchy artisitc games.
> Same with my son.
I doubt a group of kids going into a arcade are going to spend more
money on a pinball because it's got good artwork or not.. If that
was
the case I'm sure Stern would have been all over that to survive.
Going to the hall of fame is a totally different animal. You expect
art there, you basically going into a museum not to hang out and
spend
quarters with your friends.
wesley
I live near Manitou Springs, CO which has a rare arcade of mostly EM,
early SS and a handful of newer machines including 3 Sterns. The Mata
Hari pinball has for years had a horribly ruined backglass. Recently
it got a brand new looking back glass and it's beautiful. Granted the
game doesn't play any better with a new BG but it's so much nicer to
walk up to it then when it looked like the old BG had very little art
left on it just so smudge up colors. Even though not many of the
older pins are in perfect condition, the artwork on the cabinets,
BG's, and playfield of many is so much better than many, but certainly
not all, of the pins in the 90's and Stern machines.
I also happen to be reading the various editions of the Pinball
Compendiums covering the 1930's until the early 21th century (great
books!) and what often catches my eye is the artwork, especially when
comparing machines with identical or very similar game fields. I much
prefer artistic efforts, painting, and original and creative efforts
versus anything that's photo shopped. True, I'd prefer any top 5 pin
(you pick them) that has horrible playfield wear, a BG that's worn
out, and banged up and brusied cabinet over a perfect looking dud or
average game.
I personally hope the new Wizard of OZ will have great original
artwork and not retouched photos. Will be nice to see Stern put more
efforts into art.
goatdan
> Look at Whirlwind, Paragon, Strikes and Spares, TOTAN, TZ. The back
> glass is a work of art. The Shadow the fubbed it could have been so
> much more. But you get my point.
It totally depends on the game and how it is made -- just for
instance, the drawn backglass of DM is in no way a classic, and
neither is the Shadow. But, I'd argue very strongly that the
backglass for Iron Man is extremely dramatic and far better than what
a drawing of Iron Man could have conveyed, and the backglass for
Jurassic Park is just as striking as anything else out there.
Having said that, I love the cartoony style of art on the playfield
like what Jurassic Park has too that a lot of people seem to dislike
about that era. I think the DE machines from that time have the
coolest looking art. In many ways, I find that between the incredible
"photoshop" backglass, the understated side art and the cool cartoony
playfield that -- *to me* -- Jurassic Park is the most beautiful
overall package of a game ever done.
And, I actually think that IM comes *very* close to the awesome look
that Jurassic Park has, with a cabinet package that is absolutely
perfect for the theme. The playfield for what it is fits nearly
perfectly too.
So... I guess it all depends. And, having said that, I think that
VND is one of the god awful ugliest games ever made (WORST playfield,
WORST plastics, HORRID backglass, sort of passable side art), but it
ain't going anywhere because I don't play the art and I adore the
gameplay.
brokenvette
I agree with Abby. Pinballs to me are artwork. Totan and CV are good
examples. They are beautiful. The ES and WW I just got are as well.
That's part of the reason I always get new or restored CC pfs for my
games. I love the candy coated goodness of a beautiful PF under glass
or car clear in this case. I didn't get a pf for my LOTR even though
it is a great game. I did get one for my Spidy even though it was
perfect when I bought it.
super8man
Agreed. It's the reason my 3 SS pins can live in my house the 99% of
the time they are NOT turned on. They offer their art during that
time. I keep wondering why people don't make their own translite
back"glass" for newer pins - just a quick trip to TAP PLASTICS and
your local pro-photo lab and you should be good to go. Newer pins
remind me of the punch line "put a flag over the face and do it for
your country" - they may play great but boy are they tough on the
eyes...
CEllison
loud you don't play the cabinet right? Don;t get me wrong - nothng as
sexy as a beautiful game lit up in your game room but ... artwork DOES
matter. Because (please search RGP for my sermon lesson) you have to
have curb appeal to get people over for the first coin drop. After
that the software and audio gets the next drop.
If I have to choose between shoddy artwork and great game play or
beautiful artwork and shoddy game play ... well it's a no brainer in
my opinion.
-=Chris=-
SaBbRa CaDaBra
> Art is not part of the arcade route experience. Maybe if Stern were
> selling to the home market only......
If that were true pinball games would just have whitewood playfields
and plywood cabs and heads.
Jonathan
I agree with a lot of things you mention, but also with line art the
artwork can be screwed. Look at LW3 for example. Some fluorescent
playfields on SS games also hurt my eyes. But overall is pinball
better of with line art, rather than photoshop collages. From a
historic point of view I really like the different forms of art used
on pinball through the eras. And why is it that artwork on DE/Sega and
Stern games never ever made an impression on me like Gottlieb, Bally
or Williams games? I even recall some spanish game that impressed me.
There must be a link to the way a company is run and the artists get
to do their thing. Good example: Whoa Nellie's artwork. Greg Freres
did an outstanding job on that. Perhaps pinball also needs more T&A,
like the old days :)
Jonathan
pinghetto
Toolguy
But when it comes down to dollars and cents, the cheaper way will
always win out.
pinghetto
money into what Stern is making either. Kids putting money into pins
has nothing to do with great or shitty art. You could tape a magazine
picture of Shrek on the backglass of a World Poker Tour and it would
do the same as an actual Shrek pinball. Personally, I think South Park
was the last pin that branding REALLY helped the cash box.
seymour.shabow
I'm guessing that you don't actually LIKE 50-60s era pins, because they
are JUST about pinball, simple objectives that are hard to achieve. You
play well, or you don't score nuthin'.
The themes were there to sell the game and get your intial
nickels/dimes/quarters. The gameplay was there to challenge you to try
again since you would come SO CLOSE to winning, but JUST miss it (just
like the best carnival games..... you can't believe you couldn't beat
such a 'simple' game)
Now, fast forward to the 70s. Less innovation in playfield design
(after Ted Zale bowed out at Bally) until the solid state era started,
and even then it took playfields some time to evolve. Once you get into
the mid 80s-90s where game times were far more liberal and continues
came into play, the designs changed to far more player control. I think
that's where you're coming from maybe without realizing it - you want
that easier ball control from games that give you an easy grab off a
ramp. The game is rewarding you for making a good shot on the ramp by
giving you the ball back, to do it again if you're skillful enough.
The earlier a game is, the more you as a player have to do to control
the ball, the game's not giving you easy balls to handle, due to the 2"
flippers and the placement of rubber and posts to direct the ball to the
drains. To say they are 'all the same' is ignorant, though, unless your
broad definition of all the same is shallow enough that you don't see
what the gimmick in a game is, or what the appeal of playing the game is.
-scott CARGPB#29
Mike Bradley
looks cheap. They put no artwork on the panel where the speakers and
DMD are-it just looks like black hole in the middle of the game.
Unfortuanlly, I know Williams went that route near the end of their
pinball days as well.
I was playing a Simpsons Pinball party and the graphics on the
skirting below the flippers looked like someone printed them on a
horrible color printer, cut them out and glued them to it.
I have a Funhouse, Road show, Addams Family and Whirlwind in my
collection. All four of these games have a full package of artwork
that seems to complete the entire theme that attracts you to the
game. I think I will always been a Williams/Bally fan for that
reason. Sterns have not made a game that doesn't have a license
behind it with no original ideas. Many of the Williams/Ballys games
are timeless and you can't tell if their brand new or 20 years old
once their restored.
I was at a local arcade a few weeks ago and noticed the Addams Family
and Funhouse got played more often than the lineup of new Sterns they
had there.
pinghetto
But the 90's era is what brought pinball back to life. All be it for a
short while. That was the era I started pinball, so I really don't
know much else. I've played a handful of 70's and earlier pins and
frankly they bore me. Maybe its because I don't understand them, or
maybe I am just a shitty player. Not that I won't give the older era
of pins a chance, I just don't have any around me to spend any amount
of time on.
Brian
Mike Bradley
Not to mention, I can't stand how they light up the back box with a
single florescent bulb. You can see it without taking the translite
off since it glows bright only in that area. It really takes away
from the true feel of a game.
seymour.shabow
> I think your post is very valid, Scott, and makes some great points.
> But the 90's era is what brought pinball back to life. All be it for a
> short while. That was the era I started pinball, so I really don't
> know much else. I've played a handful of 70's and earlier pins and
> frankly they bore me.
Pinball has been 'brought back to life' a lot, and it's always linked
with when the person discovered the pins. Pins were always 'around' -
there's 2 things that happened, the "big boom" in the late 70s where
pins (and video games) completely oversaturated the market. The baby
boom in the early 90s when family entertainment centers went mega-large
fueled the 2nd boom.
> Maybe its because I don't understand them, or
> maybe I am just a shitty player. Not that I won't give the older era
> of pins a chance, I just don't have any around me to spend any amount
> of time on.
>
They're easy to understand and play, hard to master. It doesn't help if
you play EMs that aren't set up correctly - a lot of people don't have
the slope correct, things aren't rebuilt properly, and the flippers
don't have the strength they should. Improperly restored EMs ARE
boring. Properly restored ones are very challenging.
If your idea of a challenge is to complete a seemingly simple objective
(get all drop targets down to light extra ball, complete this sequence
to light that target for specials) - EMs are right up your alley. If
however you think "pinball" means what a ramp-era machine is, you'll
probably never like EMs. (One of the main draws of earlier games is
that on the surface, yes, they ARE very simple; they look simple. In
fact the most popular EMs are NOT the 'kitchen sink' ones, where's
there's crap all over the playfield. The draw is in the challenge of
beating the machine..... if that's not interesting, nothing I can say
will make it interesting)
-scott CARGPB#29
Bud
A concept is introduced slowly,you see a new idea then something
similar and suddenly the whole
market heads that way that is how marketing works.If say Stern or Jack
designed a new back-glass not
a trans-light but some actual artwork and then followed suite with
another it would catch on.It makes sense that subtle changes go un-
noticed but the artwork is subconsciously appealing to us and is part
of the concept of pinball,bring back the artwork and the back-glass.
Mark Clayton
on WPT.
-Mark
-----
http://pinballpal.com
snaroff
I have a chromed out, Fab Fantasies KISS - pure eye candy. Gets played
very little.
I have 3 Sterns (SM/LOTR/TSPP) - from my perspective, the play is
great, the art is very good on average.
I have 2 Popadiuk (TOM/CV) - from my perspective, the play is very
good, the art is awesome. CV's ruleset and wizard mode are much cooler
than TOM.
Photoshop isn't the problem...believe me. As pinballcorpse taught me,
it's about the total game package.
snaroff
JimB
wrote:
That's a very extreme example... not at all what I meant. You can't
tell me that an Ironman with photoshopped artwork will not attack kids.
Rare Hero
> Photoshop isn't the problem...believe me. As pinballcorpse taught me,
> it's about the total game package.
Also - the "real world" experience can make a game look better, vs.
just seeing it in pictures. For instance - Stern Elvis - probably one
of the worst Photoshop playfields ever if you just look at pics of it
fully lit ...but in my dark gameroom, lit by the game's lighting &
awesome light shows - somehow it looks better! :)
Greg
Q
artist to get real art on a pin.
pinfan
> Was looking at videos of the new stones pin by stern and do not like
> how they use real images on it.
> Part of the greatness of TZ and KISS were they used artwork to draw
> and not real photos. In todays digital world its simple to print
> photos on anything. Its easier for the graphic department as they do
> not need an artist but rather a graphic designer.
>
> Look at Whirlwind, Paragon, Strikes and Spares, TOTAN, TZ. The back
> glass is a work of art. The Shadow the fubbed it could have been so
> much more. But you get my point.
>
> These games with real photos are no classic. Like Stern Batman and
> Spiderman? Why use photos of the people in the movie. That sucks. Use
> art from the movie and not stupid actors but rather the charracters.
>
> If Stern would have had an artist render the group on a cabinet and
> back glass maybe it would be more collectable and appealing than a
> giant printer spitting out life like photos.
so i guess you dont like Last Action Hero with the HUGE ARNOLD HEAD
STARING AT YOU......"big mistake"
brokenvette
You really think Elvis is bad? I dont like Es music and I dont really
think much or him otherwise but I would like to have the game because
I think its cool looking, one of Sterns better looking PFs, and a fun
layout and ruleset. Thats why Im getting a Rbion, its different and
kindof wierd. I wish they had a dieeferent pink than that Pepto Bismol
pink though.
Rare Hero
> You really think Elvis is bad? I dont like Es music and I dont really
> think much or him otherwise but I would like to have the game because
> I think its cool looking, one of Sterns better looking PFs, and a fun
> layout and ruleset.
I love Elvis, as an overall pinball experience - but if you look at
the playfield art specifically - it's terrible photoshopping. It's
got 3 images of Elvis that are from low resolution sources....they
look like they're taken from a TV screen grab or an old magazine
scan. There's a contrast between the Elvis photos and the higher
resolution artwork of the lines, arrows, text, etc. I find it hard to
believe they couldn't have found some higher resolution images of
Elvis to use. ...but my point was, when it's lit by the machine and
in play, it looks much better in that context than if you're just
examining the playfield on its own.
Greg
Rompen
I think the ruleset in the 70s and later games became more
interesting. I am not seeing as much strategy or technique with the
earlier games, but admittedly I haven't played as much of them as I'd
like. But I agree with you, with the earlier games it is about ball
control, but a lot of those games were cranked out without much
thought to playability - the playfields were developed independent of
the theme, and even the artwork. Artwork changed on a regular basis,
they made single and multiplayer versions play differently, etc. I
guess you can consider that more challenging, but to me it's mainly
challenging to compensate for lack of deep, interesting game design.
SaBbRa CaDaBra
If Medieval Madness had photoshop artwork it would not be worth the
same as what it is.
cal50
designs / games, great (real) art, a lot of fun to play and
simplistic. Innovation and gadgets are cool but no replacement for
good design and build. Building more expensive games only limits sales
and makes the return on investment longer for the op's. Someone
mentioned in another thread a Stern replacement motor was a couple
hundred bucks (can’t remember title). This is the wrong direction and
part of the problem. Keep it simple, build it solid with a good layout
and price it sensibly.
seymour.shabow
>
> I think the ruleset in the 70s and later games became more
> interesting. I am not seeing as much strategy or technique with the
> earlier games, but admittedly I haven't played as much of them as I'd
> like. But I agree with you, with the earlier games it is about ball
> control, but a lot of those games were cranked out without much
> thought to playability - the playfields were developed independent of
> the theme, and even the artwork. Artwork changed on a regular basis,
> they made single and multiplayer versions play differently, etc. I
> guess you can consider that more challenging, but to me it's mainly
> challenging to compensate for lack of deep, interesting game design.
They weren't deep because you can only go so deep with electromechanical
design before it gets really cumbersome and expensive to produce. (Not
that they didn't try that on some games)
There's really no way to explain the appeal, you do need to play more of
them and not be impatient. They were all designed to be about a 2
minute diversion, if you can read some of the old articles from Gordon
Hasse and Bob Herbison in gameroom/pingame journal where they explain
rules and strategies for games.
It's one thing to say the strategy for Slick Chick for instance is to
"spell slick chick 5 times to light gobble holes for specials" - it's
another thing to actually accomplish it.
-scott CARGPB#29
John Bigbooty
wrote:
>Agreed. Photoshop should be kept away from pins. Like I tried to impart in
>my comment to Steve R a while back, real artwork lifts pinball above itself
>as an amusement device into a work of art. It was one thing that elevated
>pinball in spite of the disdain from mothers, politicians and the general
>public.
>
>-cody
>
This has nothing to do with Photoshop. Photoshop is simply a tool. One
can make good or bad artwork with this tool. Even if Stern was making
the best original art, there is still a good chance Photoshop would be
used.
Mark
Atlanta GA
MetalPin
<BOGUSevileye0702BO...@bellsouth.netBOGUS> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Mar 2011 18:49:19 -0600, "cody chunn" <cchu...@comcast.net>
Something is only as good as the effort put into it. It is hard to
have a fantastic game when most of the parts are farmed out overseas
and then pieced together as cheaply as possible. I'm a business man; I
understand the need to make money to keep things running, but I also
understand that sometimes you have to spend some money to make more
money. You can't just keep raising prices while showing a decrease in
quality of work at the same time. Eventually you end up losing even
your most dedicated clients, and then your doodoo gets too deep to
climb out of.
Michael
seeburg220
(at least initially) into a machine. I can remember being 13 or 14
year old, and gravitating towards games like KISS, Paragon, Mata Hari,
Eight Ball - those games had either a familiarity (KISS), or a cool-
looking design (Paragon). I tended to avoid most Gottlieb and
Williams pins (except Skylab), because I don't think they looked as
good. As a kid, I knew nothing about card games, so that wiped out
many pins of the day.
Fast-forward to 1990. We had a game room at work. The vendor would
rotate pins periodically. When Arena (Premier ?) showed up, I thought
that was the end of pinball. It looked so cheap and had a plastic
"backglass" with some stupid picture on it. That game got one, maybe
two quarters from me ever.
I'm also not a fan of translites and pictures; I prefer the cartooning
of themes on real glass. Here's hoping WOZ gets made with paintings
and not photos ; )