Is WPC an acronym for "What a Piece of Crap?"
Bako PinHead
primarily williams system 11 titles (no particular reason other than
these are the titles I played when I was a kid). Within the last month
I decided to broaden my horizon and purchase a more modern title
containing a deeeper ruleset. As usual (and as anyone reading this can
understand), I went over board and purchased 2 WPC titles-Dracula and
Whitewater (while neither were treasure cove restorations, they also
were not bargain basement, just off the container from germany, $500
purchases!). I received both games within the last week and neither
of them will endure more than 60 seconds of game play before
resetting. WTF?!?!?!
Thus far, I've checked the power cords and power connections for each
pin, checked the voltage at my wall outlet (119-120V), and checked for
the presence of diodes at the flipper and slingshot coils.
Please assist with either troubleshooting tips or reasonable offers on
either of these diamond plated, dot matrix, multi-mode bags
of.....sausage!
If nothing else all of this has reaffirmed my affinity for Taxi,
Earthshaker, and Whirlwind!!!!
Lloyd Olson
resets. Could be weak bridge rectifiers or broken traces around them, could
be reversed diode on a switch. Could be loose connections from the power
cord to the transformer. Could be heavy appliances on the same line going on
and off. etc. etc. LTG :)
"Bako PinHead" <awfl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188872769....@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
c...@provide.net
> http://www.actionpinball.com/ Ray has some good tech articles on game
> resets. Could be weak bridge rectifiers or broken traces around them, could
> be reversed diode on a switch. Could be loose connections from the power
> cord to the transformer. Could be heavy appliances on the same line going on
> and off. etc. etc. LTG :)
*sigh*. Though Ray has some very basic info (like a big 2 paragraphs
on WPC resets), his info basically came from the source below.
i would suggest the following link for a much more indepth and
proper discussion on the topic.
http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index2.htm#reset
> "Bako PinHead" <awflo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Jeff Palmer
> On Sep 3, 10:35 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
>
> > resets. Could be weak bridge rectifiers or broken traces around them, could
> > be reversed diode on a switch. Could be loose connections from the power
> > cord to the transformer. Could be heavy appliances on the same line going on
> > and off. etc. etc. LTG :)
>
> *sigh*. Though Ray has some very basic info (like a big 2 paragraphs
> on WPC resets), his info basically came from the source below.
> i would suggest the following link for a much more indepth and
> proper discussion on the topic.http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index2.htm#reset
>
>
YES!! A MILLION TIMES OVER!! You must read Clay's stuff. You will be
a much, much happier pinball camper. Ask anybody!! Read read read
some more, learn how to solder/desolder and use a DMM, read read
read. It is not just for WPC. So much knowledge in there. It is a
GIFT!!
And do research on RGP a whole bunch.
Thanks Clay et.al
Jeff
ivan...@rcn.com
> On Sep 3, 10:35 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
>
> > resets. Could be weak bridge rectifiers or broken traces around them, could
> > be reversed diode on a switch. Could be loose connections from the power
> > cord to the transformer. Could be heavy appliances on the same line going on
> > and off. etc. etc. LTG :)
>
> *sigh*. Though Ray has some very basic info (like a big 2 paragraphs
> on WPC resets), his info basically came from the source below.
> i would suggest the following link for a much more indepth and
>
>
>
> > "Bako PinHead" <awflo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1188872769....@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> > >I have recently become an avid collector of pinball machines,
> > > primarily williams system 11 titles (no particular reason other than
> > > these are the titles I played when I was a kid). Within the last month
> > > I decided to broaden my horizon and purchase a more modern title
> > > containing a deeeper ruleset. As usual (and as anyone reading this can
> > > understand), I went over board and purchased 2 WPC titles-Dracula and
> > > Whitewater (while neither were treasure cove restorations, they also
> > > were not bargain basement, just off the container from germany, $500
> > > purchases!). I received both games within the last week and neither
> > > of them will endure more than 60 seconds of game play before
> > > resetting. WTF?!?!?!
>
> > > Thus far, I've checked the power cords and power connections for each
> > > pin, checked the voltage at my wall outlet (119-120V), and checked for
> > > the presence of diodes at the flipper and slingshot coils.
>
> > > Please assist with either troubleshooting tips or reasonable offers on
> > > either of these diamond plated, dot matrix, multi-mode bags
> > > of.....sausage!
>
> > > If nothing else all of this has reaffirmed my affinity for Taxi,
>
> - Show quoted text -
First, let me say congratulations on excellent buys. Those are great
titles at a bargain price so don't sweat it. Don't sell if we can get
you going for about 6 bucks a piece. Here's the bad news, WPC systems
are junk. I fix many machines and these are the most problematic. A
system 11 on the other hand is rock solid and is a personal favorite.
WPC systems offer the best software, game design and rule set but
electronic design leaves something to be desired. I do more board
work on Williams than any other. That being said, I suggest you change
two bridge rectifiers on your driver board that cost about 3 bucks
each and an hour of your time. The bridges to change are the ones in
the right up most corner under the heat sink. They do the most work
and generally cause the most problems in my experience. I suggest that
you replace and enjoy your new purchases.
Here is what you do for starters. This is typically the problem but
may not be in your situation. This has solved my problems in every
case. Cut the bridges out carefully with a side cutter leaving some
lead for you to grab with a pliers. This is important because the
board is very easy to damage. Heat each lead with a solder iron and
remove. After you have removed the leads you need to remove the excess
solder with solder brade. Don't bother with hand solder sucker, their
junk and cause more harm than good. A pneumatic solder sucker is best
but very expensive. Solder brade is an excellent tool but you must
still be very careful!!!! Excessive heat will wreck the board so use
your head.
Replace with new bridges that you can get at Pinball Resource or
wherever and you should be good to go. If not than we have a bigger
problem ( most likely the large caps that are extremely difficult to
replace without damaging the board) C6 and C 11 if memory serves
correctly. Check your schematics because I don't have mine in front of
me.
IF ANY OF THIS IS GREEK TO YOU DON"T TRY TO REPAIR. I have assumed you
know something about board repair. There are many here that can do
this work for you at a reasonable price. At $500 purchase price a
piece, you are way ahead of the game.
Good luck!
vinito
each. Either way it seems that replacing a few components is less hassle
than even selling them off, at least as long as it's fixed afterward.
<ivan...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:1188879095....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> > "Bako PinHead" <awflo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>(while neither were treasure cove restorations, they also
>> > > were not bargain basement, just off the container from germany, $500
>> > > purchases!).
> At $500 purchase price a
Fred Kemper
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"Bako PinHead" <awfl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1188872769....@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>
c...@provide.net
> On Sep 3, 10:49 pm, c...@provide.net wrote:
>
> > On Sep 3, 10:35 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
>
> > > resets. Could be weak bridge rectifiers or broken traces around them, could
> > > be reversed diode on a switch. Could be loose connections from the power
> > > cord to the transformer. Could be heavy appliances on the same line going on
> > > and off. etc. etc. LTG :)
>
> > *sigh*. Though Ray has some very basic info (like a big 2 paragraphs
> > on WPC resets), his info basically came from the source below.
> > i would suggest the following link for a much more indepth and
> > proper discussion on the topic.http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index2.htm#reset
>
> YES!! A MILLION TIMES OVER!! You must read Clay's stuff. You will be
> a much, much happier pinball camper. Ask anybody!! Read read read
> some more, learn how to solder/desolder and use a DMM, read read
> read. It is not just for WPC. So much knowledge in there. It is a
> GIFT!!
>
> And do research on RGP a whole bunch.
>
> Thanks Clay et.al
>
> Jeff
Thanks, but don't forget LTG too.
Though i love to blow him crap,
i try and make sure he gives
good tech advice. But he's always
behind the keyboard, reacting to
posts faster than a speeding bullet!
ZOOOOM!!
Jeff Palmer
> On Sep 3, 11:35 pm, Jeff Palmer <bigshermantr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 3, 10:49 pm, c...@provide.net wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 3, 10:35 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
>
> > > > resets. Could be weak bridge rectifiers or broken traces around them, could
> > > > be reversed diode on a switch. Could be loose connections from the power
> > > > cord to the transformer. Could be heavy appliances on the same line going on
> > > > and off. etc. etc. LTG :)
>
> > > *sigh*. Though Ray has some very basic info (like a big 2 paragraphs
> > > on WPC resets), his info basically came from the source below.
> > > i would suggest the following link for a much more indepth and
> > > proper discussion on the topic.http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index2.htm#reset
>
> > YES!! A MILLION TIMES OVER!! You must read Clay's stuff. You will be
> > a much, much happier pinball camper. Ask anybody!! Read read read
> > some more, learn how to solder/desolder and use a DMM, read read
> > read. It is not just for WPC. So much knowledge in there. It is a
> > GIFT!!
>
> > And do research on RGP a whole bunch.
>
> > Thanks Clay et.al
>
> > Jeff
>
> Thanks, but don't forget LTG too.
> Though i love to blow him crap,
> i try and make sure he gives
> good tech advice. But he's always
> behind the keyboard, reacting to
> posts faster than a speeding bullet!
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yep. The list of folks could easily turn into the thankyou list at
the back of an album lyric sheet, but yeah, Lloyd gets major props too
in the tech help department. I can't begin to mention all of the
people that have provided assistance some with live responses and
others with archived assistance. Lloyd is certainly Johnny-tech-on-
the-spot. I think he lives to see the word TECH in the post line :-)
Jeff
frenchy
<<Here's the bad news, WPC systems
> are junk. I fix many machines and these are the most problematic. A
> system 11 on the other hand is rock solid and is a personal favorite.
I don't see the software being 'better' on a WPC than a system 11, on
two equally-classed, fun games. If anything the older games are to be
applauded for squeezing everything they do into such restricted memory
capacity while not making the player feel like anything was
sacrificed. Analogy is video games, where a lot of the oldies were
comparatively crude, abstract and extremely limited in memory and
visuals but still kick ass in originality and fun... and new videos
where it's all about maximizing memory capacity, resolution and visual
reality, while the originality and fun are out to lunch. Pins don't
have this same chasm between eras, but I am simply making a point
about memory size.
<<... game design>>
Again, don't see why a given WPC playfield is inherently better than a
System 11, or whatever system you want to name. WPC had faster
processing, more speech and memory, more snazzy lighting effects.
None of those have much to do with the playfield coming out a winner
or not.
<<...and rule set>>
Bigger, yes, better? Still depends on what the result is. A one-page
ruleset can stink and a four paragraph ruleset can be brilliant.
deafdumb&blindboy
they kept adding more and more boards and depopulating the sound
section and generally making it so cluttered in the backbox? Because
it couldn't handle everything that the games needed as they became
progressively more complex. Not to mention the change to the DMD. I'm
no electronics wizard but it seems to me as a layman that WPC is a
better platform with more ability to handle the newer playfield
devices and control everything plus give better diagnostics feedback.
Games like TZ could have never been invented in the system 11 era, the
platform couldn't have handled all that stuff. I can't tell you how
many times I wished system 11 had something like the grid display for
switches. The only real failing of WPC is exactly what the OP is
encountering, the inevitable failure of the BR's and caps on the
driver board. Once you are resigned to the fact that they will need
replacing sooner or later (usually sooner) then everything is
fine....so long as you don't do damage to those traces in that area
while replacing them. And while Lloyd is the man for the quick
answers, Clay's guides are the definitive source, not to mention the
sheer volume and scope they cover. But rarely does Lloyd answer
questions that the solution to can't be found in Clay's guides, you
just need the fortitude to look through it all long enough to find
those answers.
As for Ivan's advice about solder suckers, I don't agree - solder
wicking braid (and that is BRAID, since it is braided wire) is junk,
if you do a lot of desoldering a vacuum pump powered unit is ideal,
but for the hobbyist a regular ol' soldapullt is fine. I don't even
like the soldapullt type as much as my little metal bodied thumb
button type, which cleans out every hole in a moment, so long as the
solder is heated up and the tip is applied squarely to the hole. But
to each their own....apparently Ivan hasn't replaced a whole lot of 16
digit A/N displays or 40 pin interconnects on system 7s, where a spool
of that braid would be used up and there would still be solder left to
clean out of the holes. If you want to run a poll and ask everybody
what they prefer, I'm willing to bet over 75% would prefer either of
the devices I mentioned over wicking braid. I grew up working in my
dad's electronics company in the 70's, and believe me, there might
have been a spool or two of that junk laying around but nobody ever
used it.
J.
ivan...@rcn.com
> wicking braid (and that is BRAID, since it is braided wire) is junk,
> if you do a lot of desoldering a vacuum pump powered unit is ideal,
For the record, I use a Pace desoldering station. It provided the
quality of work I expect. I did mention that they are the best for
this kind of work. Of course most wouldn't invest in such equipment
for a component here and there.
Using a solder sucker for clunky/chunky 70's components installed on
oversize through holes, sure. That's not what we're talking about. I
would never dare use such an archaic device on a WPC board. Other than
discrete components, only a desolder station will do.
Are you using this method to change chips?!?!?. For God's sake man,
step up and buy some real gear. It will be cheaper than new boards.
kenny_ii
Desolder braid is not junk. It's like any other tool, it has a right
place and way to be used, and it works great. I use it as much as my
vacuum desolder station, and have no issues with board damage or poor
solder removal.
K2
frenchy
> Don't knock WPC as an OS - if system 11 was so great, why was it that
> they kept adding more and more boards and depopulating the sound
> section and generally making it so cluttered in the backbox? Because
> it couldn't handle everything that the games needed as they became
> progressively more complex. Not to mention the change to the DMD. >>
Just because a system can't handle a bunch of complex changes they
wanted to do, and that became more affordable, to keep up with the
competition doesn't mean it was a bad system. It wasn't designed with
DMDs in mind so of course that was beyond it. Everybody's systems
back then were going thru the same thing, auxilliary lamp boards,
speech boards, aux solenoid boards. For comparison, would anybody be
surprised if WPC would have had great difficulty having a color lcd
monitor being forced upon it, if the system had been around long
enough? I'm saying they were both good systems as they were
originally designed and for what was feasible at the time given then-
current display technologies, memory cost etc.
Mark Clayton
and specks after using the vacuum tool. It's also good for helping the
solder sucker if there's a large amount of solder on the top of the PCB,
such as a corner pin wave soldered to a power plane on top of the board.
It's also useful for re-tinning edge connector fingers on Gottlieb PCBs.
put a blob of solder on the edge connector foil, then drag the solder
braid across the finger with the tip of the soldering iron. The heavy flux
in the braid helps the solder cover the entire finger, and the braid picks up
all the excess.
But use it wrong, and you'll have detatched pads and broken pth connections.
-Mark
--
http://pinballpal.com
"kenny_ii" <kenn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1188942094....@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
c...@provide.net
Interestingly, DataEast was able to utilize the System11
architecture just fine to implement dot matrix displays
(remember the DE was a copy of sys11 until whitestar
came about in 1995). You can see how they did that
on the TOP7 video.
Solder braid has some uses - i use the non-flux version
for G.I. braid or ground braid. But for desoldering, I don't
know how anyone can use it. Even a $7 desoldering
(blue) pump desoldapult from Radio Shack does a better
job. I can install a new alpha-numeric display or a PIA
chip in no time with one of those. Of course a good
desoldering station is always welcome, but often i'm
just not in a position to use one.
frenchy
> Interestingly, DataEast was able to utilize the System11
> architecture just fine to implement dot matrix displays
> (remember the DE was a copy of sys11 until whitestar
> came about in 1995). You can see how they did that
> on the TOP7 video.>>
Didn't know that. Hmmm just helps to bolster System 11, dot matrix
was feasible on it after all if Williams had been able to accomplish
it (or wanted to in the first place) : )
deafdumb&blindboy
> architecture just fine to implement dot matrix displays
> (remember the DE was a copy of sys11 until whitestar
> came about in 1995). You can see how they did that
> on the TOP7 video.
>
> Solder braid has some uses - i use the non-flux version
> for G.I. braid or ground braid. But for desoldering, I don't
> know how anyone can use it. Even a $7 desoldering
> (blue) pump desoldapult from Radio Shack does a better
> job. I can install a new alpha-numeric display or a PIA
> chip in no time with one of those. Of course a good
> desoldering station is always welcome, but often i'm
> just not in a position to use one.
I don't mean to knock system 11 at WPC's expense - certainly, at the
time it was a great system, some of the all time classic games are
system 11. It was certainly an improvement over system 7, although
system 9 might have been better because they were smart enough to put
the batteries on a lower section of the board without a bunch of chips
directly beneath them. And I had forgotten that DE was able to utilize
the same basic architecture and put a DMD controller into it, because
I skipped those portions of TOP7 for the most part, focusing more on
parts of it that were more relevant to me in fixing WMS games. (like
the cleaning of shooter rods, playfield glass, etc. ;))
And I guess I shouldn't have dismissed solder braid out of hand - if
it were useless, they would have stopped selling it. But I still stand
by what I said about desoldering a 40 pin connector or a 16 digit A/N
display with it - that would be an exercise in futility. I have an
Ungar desoldering station that I picked up for free, and while it
could use a new tip, it works quite well at what it needs to do. But I
mostly use my cheapy blue metal guy, I just put a new tip on it and it
really sucks now! Only problem with those guys is when a particularly
large glob of solder dries in the tip enough to prevent you from
cocking the thing with your thumb and you have to push it out with
both hands and grab the protruding offensive piece of solder and
remove it. Then they aren't so great, but mostly they are.
J.
Dallas Overturf
You need the fluxed copper solder braid to clean up surface mount pads.
It'll also usually pull solder out of stubbor thru-holes iff you add more
flux.
I always preferred RMA but the water soluble stuff works a bit less
efficiently.
As to WPC arguments: Part of their reason for change was as I understood it
back then; was that the 6821 PIA chips were being obsoleted; hence they
proactively designed an ASIC to replace them. WPC = Williams Pinball
Controller, The bad/dumb thing they did and non-op friendly to boot
was to add in the security chip nonsense later due to the nonsense over in
Europe (IMO).
Regards to all,
Dallas...
--
Home Page: www.geocities.com/d_overturf/index.html
Newsgroups to reply to me me via email, please fix the email address
dallas.ove...@verizon.net
REMOVE NOSPAM from the reply address.
----------
<c...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:1188944477.0...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
seymour...@excite.com
> I don't mean to knock system 11 at WPC's expense - certainly, at the
> time it was a great system, some of the all time classic games are
> system 11. It was certainly an improvement over system 7, although
> system 9 might have been better because they were smart enough to put
> the batteries on a lower section of the board without a bunch of chips
> directly beneath them.
Unfortunately the gas that leaks out of the batteries travels UP so
that's not good either. Too bad they didn't just use capacitors or
zeropower rams (although they would surely have been obsolete by now too)
> And I guess I shouldn't have dismissed solder braid out of hand - if
> it were useless, they would have stopped selling it. But I still stand
> by what I said about desoldering a 40 pin connector or a 16 digit A/N
> display with it - that would be an exercise in futility.
Ugh, my top choice for desoldering is the desolder station, followed by
the vacuum tool Clay suggests. I've never used desoldering braid with
success.
Usually connectors I just use the radioshack vacuum tool - only break
out the desoldering gun for chips or a lot of discretes.
-scott CARGPB#29