People who have played IM ?
john041160
Do you see this pin holding up in a home collection??
I really wanted this to be my next NIB pin and I have not played it.
But from what I have seen there does not seem alot to do in this game
sure the wild pinballs add excitement. But few inserts ramp ramp bash
monger
ramp ramp. ??
Old School Al
and see but at this point in development, yes, it is somewhat thin on
goals. It is reminiscent of the old Sega days where rules are somewhat
shallow and it's all about multiball. We shall see how it ends up. It
does look and sound great though! :)
MRG
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree with Al.
I'll add:
At this point I would not plan to add it to a collection.
TheKorn
4d726c...@g9g2000vba.googlegroups.com:
> Do you see this pin holding up in a home collection??
No, I don't. In fact, I played five games, then went "f*ck this game,
I'm playing big buck hunter", and swiped my card in *that* instead.
Granted, that's a bit harsh -- a lot of this was due to how IM is
currently set up. Inlanes almost totally open, tilt set so that if you
look at it cross-eyed it'll give you a warning, and what amounts to zero
second ball saves.
So I reached the "this game is f*cking me without lube. >>WHY<< am I
*paying* to play it?" point rather quickly with IM. It's one thing to
have random elements in a game and occasionally get boned. But to set up
a game so that you can't legitimately *fight back* against the random
elements AT ALL, that's a guaranteed formula for *NOT FUN*. That's
giving the game a "I say your ball is over NOW!" card and having it play
the card OVER and OVER and OVER again.
If they decide to change the setup of IM, then I'd be open to taking
another look. Until then, I have *zero* plans to go back to play it --
and I *like* pinball!
> I really wanted this to be my next NIB pin and I have not played it.
> But from what I have seen there does not seem alot to do in this game
> sure the wild pinballs add excitement. But few inserts ramp ramp bash
> monger
> ramp ramp. ??
Right now you pretty much have iron monger (+ im multiball), war machine
multiball, whiplash multiball, plus hunting for bogeys (no multiball).
Oh yeah, and ironman double points mode. It's still early, so probably
much more will come; for example, completing mark v doesn't actually *do*
anything right now except turn on the light. Almost assuredly that will
change.
Scylla
I've played it for an hour or so with other RGPers -- sadly I was not
there for Korn's F--- this Machine Moment. My quick reaction was
great looking game, fun but probably not for a home collection. As
others have pointed out, I think it's premature to make a final
judgment based on test game reviews. I would wait until you can play
one for yourself and go from there. Thought it had potential but
there wasn't a lot on the PF. Wait until you can check one out
yourself.
brokenvette
I asked the same question because it doesn't look like much and the
initial reactions haven't been positive and I was looking forward to
IM being my first NIB pin. I took my money and bought a Scared Stiff.
I may regret it later, however. Remember, people were getting rid of
SM left and right saying it was a crappy game when it wasn't finished.
I have always wanted a SS and I got a good deal on one but my advice
would be to wait. My opinion means nothing however.
above average man
The playfield is just too damn empty. Two flippers, boring playfield.
I would not add this into your collection until you play the hell out
of the finished product. I don't see the software saving this stinker.
john041160
Thanks for the replys
I thought this would look cool next SE SM but art is not everything. I
want Stern to survive it looks
like they will be losing thier home collectors but as Gary points out
its not about us. Here's hoping
Avatar is a more exciting game if that is in fact an upcomming title.
Mike
I didn't play it, but I saw it at the Betson open house last
Tuesday...
The art looks great. However, much like they did with NBA being a
reincarnated Space Jam, the layout of IM looks very similar to Austin
Powers. I'm not just saying that because of the pop up toy in the
middle of the playfield. It looks like you could 'literally'
transplant both the left and right ramp from IM to AP.
Think of that what you will. Again, I didn't play it, so I can't say
whether I liked it or didn't like it, but the whole playfield design
transplant thing is a little disappointing, IMO.
-Mike
Koz Pinlicious
> john041160 <john041...@aol.com> wrote in news:2079dba6-d8db-45e8-9327-
> 4d726c719...@g9g2000vba.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Do you see this pin holding up in a home collection??
>
> No, I don't. In fact, I played five games, then went "f*ck this game,
> I'm playing big buck hunter", and swiped my card in *that* instead.
LOL! Nice! Most players won't take their ball and go home, they will
be up for a challenge! :-)
>
> Granted, that's a bit harsh -- a lot of this was due to how IM is
> currently set up. Inlanes almost totally open, tilt set so that if you
> look at it cross-eyed it'll give you a warning, and what amounts to zero
> second ball saves.
SWASS! So the game will actually earn, sweet! I am glad to see games
playing more like em's on location...lower ball times due to proper
set-up, low/no ball savers, and tight tilts. Now *THAT* is how you set
up a game to earn$$$!
>
> So I reached the "this game is f*cking me without lube.
Instead of the other way around? What, you want a game like Spider-man
that shipped WAAAY to easy and then it doesn't earn? F-that.
>>WHY<< am I
> *paying* to play it?" point rather quickly with IM. It's one thing to
> have random elements in a game and occasionally get boned. But to set up
> a game so that you can't legitimately *fight back* against the random
> elements AT ALL, that's a guaranteed formula for *NOT FUN*. That's
> giving the game a "I say your ball is over NOW!" card and having it play
> the card OVER and OVER and OVER again.
THAT is pinball, THAT is the ball is wild. EM's used to do it and
still do to people all the time. Those are the only games you see
multiplayers on regularaly because the ball times are *low*. I am glad
Stern is going in this direction, especially on location.
I mean, you buy the game, bring it home, set it up to *coddle* you as
much as you want. Yu want to finish it every game, heck, just put
rubber across the outlanes. I say 3 cheers for Stern on strpping up
and helping the OP *EARN MONEY AGAIN*!
>
> If they decide to change the setup of IM, then I'd be open to taking
> another look. Until then, I have *zero* plans to go back to play it --
> and I *like* pinball!
If you like pinball, you play what is in front of you. If you like a
pinball machine to coddle you, you won't play something that hands you
your *ss on a silver platter. Why do you think Boag hates AFM soo
much? Because he got boned on the game so often he just couldn't take
it anymore. In the meantime, other players played and paid the op in
the process. On location, it is about making money. 10 minute game
times are KILLERS! Hell, even % minute game times is going to limit
earnings. I fully applaud Stern for going this direction, it is what
is *needed*. And it's nothing against Korn, I am sure many will share
his sentiments, but get used to the new way of things and how things
*should* be on location. Again, buy one, take it home, take the glass
off, and keep it alive as long as you like, but when on location...PAY
THE PIPER! :-D
>
> > I really wanted this to be my next NIB pin and I have not played it.
> > But from what I have seen there does not seem alot to do in this game
> > sure the wild pinballs add excitement. But few inserts ramp ramp bash
> > monger
> > ramp ramp. ??
>
> Right now you pretty much have iron monger (+ im multiball), war machine
> multiball, whiplash multiball, plus hunting for bogeys (no multiball).
> Oh yeah, and ironman double points mode. It's still early, so probably
> much more will come; for example, completing mark v doesn't actually *do*
> anything right now except turn on the light. Almost assuredly that will
> change.
Cool. Sounds like Lyman and crew are busting *ss on this one
considering their limited time on it so far. Big steps since some of
the early reports. I am sure the game will be just fine, but hey, I
may just take the outlane posts *OUT* when I throw it on location.
Whatever it takes to EARN :-)
-Koz
Koz Pinlicious
wrote:
gee, way to go out on a limb. EVERY game Stern has done supposedly
*sucked* until all the dumb asses are reminded *what* a sweet game
actually is. Spiderman, POTC, FG, and TSPP and all others were all
bashed like CRAZY before and after coming out. Most of you home
collectors don't know what a sweet game is until players, arcade rats,
or people who actually understand pinball tell you what is sweet. So
until a final judgement is made by people who know what they are
talking about, just hold your cash, sit still, and we will get back to
ya when *it is done* and we can get an opinion worth a nickel. ;-)
-Koz
Koz Pinlicious
yeah, yeah, yeah, and SM sucked until Lyman did his final revision on
the game too, right?
You guys kill me rushing to judgement.
CV I supposed sucked too until Cameron did the 2.4H roms. whatever...
both games were just as sweet before the fact, it is just that for
some strange reason collectors who pretty much suck at pinball feel
the need to have a game that takes longer than a chess match to
defeat...and most need 19 extra balls and the glass off to do it
anyway. It makes no sense. It's like guys who own cars that go 200mph,
and keep them shined up in the garage for 30 years trying to avoid a
rust spot...
-Koz
Koz Pinlicious
thanks genius, its already been covered that they used AP ramps weeks
ago.
Next time, play the game and give feedback on something of
relevance. ;-)
-Koz
john041160
*sucked* until all the dumb asses are reminded *what* a sweet game
actually is. Spiderman, POTC, FG, and TSPP and all others were all
bashed like CRAZY before and after coming out. Most of you home
collectors don't know what a sweet game is until players, arcade
rats,
or people who actually understand pinball tell you what is sweet. So
until a final judgement is made by people who know what they are
talking about, just hold your cash, sit still, and we will get back
to
ya when *it is done* and we can get an opinion worth a nickel. ;-)
Thats why I asked people who played the game and the resounding
answear was no
Except for you Koz
Koz Pinlicious
is the game done yet? ...that's the point.
-Koz
Scylla
In the interest of balance, I should add that one of our RGPers really
liked the game -- enough that he said he would probably get one
(albeit not NIB but in secondary market). I think the game has
potential -- it played fast and had some flow even with the Whiplash
magnet holding the ball. A few of us did feel like the pf could have
used one more flipper -- somwhere on there. Maybe just one more
thing. Anyway, I would play it first before coming to a final
judgment.
cody chunn
>be up for a challenge! :-)
Perhaps there's a difference between challenge and felonious assault?
:0)
>SWASS! So the game will actually earn, sweet! I am glad to see games
>playing more like em's on location...lower ball times due to proper
>set-up, low/no ball savers, and tight tilts. Now *THAT* is how you set
>up a game to earn$$$!
I would agree in a pin heyday, but today I'm not so sure. When games are
brutal, how many casual players do you think will try a second time? I think
pinball needs to be somewhat inviting to get players to play a few times and
develop a taste for the game. Try to build the player base back up. Then
scale back on ball times.
>Instead of the other way around? What, you want a game like Spider-man
>that shipped WAAAY to easy and then it doesn't earn? F-that.
I did not see those reports of Spidey not earning well. Do you have proof?
>THAT is pinball, THAT is the ball is wild. EM's used to do it and
>still do to people all the time. Those are the only games you see
>multiplayers on regularaly because the ball times are *low*. I am glad
>Stern is going in this direction, especially on location.
And that was fine in the EM era. You had 5 balls and less incline so you
ended up "playing" longer (and winning free games) anyway. In the EM era,
pinball was KING and everybody played, so the market was flush with players
willing to pay. Not so today. Pinball has to convince prospective players to
try them first, THEN convince them to keep playing. I don't think punching
their teeth in is the most effective way to do that, at this point in time.
>If you like pinball, you play what is in front of you.
So how can a casual player that just shows interest in pinball grow to like
it if the game smashes his teeth in? That is absurd.
> If you like a
>pinball machine to coddle you, you won't play something that hands you
>your *ss on a silver platter. Why do you think Boag hates AFM soo
>much? Because he got boned on the game so often he just couldn't take
>it anymore. In the meantime, other players played and paid the op in
>the process.
I disagree. AFM was popular because it made people laugh. Humor is a HUGE
seller for route pinball. Players don't care much either way, but casual
players very strongly relate to and appreciate it.
> On location, it is about making money. 10 minute game
>times are KILLERS! Hell, even % minute game times is going to limit
>earnings.
If there's a line waiting to play. Don't see that much these days.
> I fully applaud Stern for going this direction, it is what
>is *needed*. And it's nothing against Korn, I am sure many will share
>his sentiments, but get used to the new way of things and how things
>*should* be on location. Again, buy one, take it home, take the glass
>off, and keep it alive as long as you like, but when on location...PAY
>THE PIPER! :-D
I think it is the wrong time to get greedy with the cashbox. Time will tell.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"Koz Pinlicious" <pinli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9bd4b561-33c5-4b90...@u31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
TheKorn
> LOL! Nice! Most players won't take their ball and go home, they will
> be up for a challenge! :-)
I disagree. We had four players, and the experience was *so* bad that
all four did exactly that.
>> Granted, that's a bit harsh -- a lot of this was due to how IM is
>> currently set up. �Inlanes almost totally open, tilt set so that if
>> you look at it cross-eyed it'll give you a warning, and what amounts
>> to zero second ball saves.
>
> SWASS! So the game will actually earn, sweet! I am glad to see games
> playing more like em's on location...lower ball times due to proper
> set-up, low/no ball savers, and tight tilts. Now *THAT* is how you set
> up a game to earn$$$!
Here's the thing... Normally when a new game comes out, I make at least
three trips to try the thing out, to judge whether A) I should buy one
and B) whether (as a game) it's even worth pumping money into on location
should I run into one.
So what happened when I tried out BBH? I thought it was pretty fun! I
thought OK, not one to buy NIB for home use for me, but good enough that
it's worth trying out should I come across one on route. I did three
runs at it, had a pretty good feel for 'what's in the game', and in the
process had quite a number of card swipes in the end on it. (i.e. They
made a signficant amount of money off of me. That's good, for them!)
Now what happened with IM? The experience was *so awful* that 1) it
killed any thought of me going back for "experience 2" and "experience
3". That means LESS MONEY FOR GAMEWORKS. 2) It killed any chance that
I would try the game at OTHER locations. (If Stern can't properly set up
their own test machines, what chance does an OP who may or may not care
have?) 3) It killed not only any idea of buying it NIB, but also of
buying it used. That means *less games sold for Stern* and *smaller
resale market*.
These are BAD THINGS. Killing sessions 2 and 3 just to get a micro ball
time on "session 1" doesn't increase ROI, it *decreases* it.
>> So I reached the "this game is f*cking me without lube.
>
> Instead of the other way around? What, you want a game like Spider-man
> that shipped WAAAY to easy and then it doesn't earn? F-that.
Nice strawman. I didn't say that. In general, I tend to like a game
that kicks my ass, PROVIDED I at least have a shot. That's where the
*fun* is, in trying to develop your skills vs. the machine. If you set
up a game so hard that THE ONLY thing you can do is hit the flipper
buttons, forget it; that's not fun. Say *whatever* you want, it doesn't
matter; I'm simply NOT going to put money into it, full stop. And isn't
the point trying to get people to put money into the machine?
> I mean, you buy the game, bring it home
Stop right there -- WHY would I buy a game that I had an *ABYSMAL*
experience with playing on location?
Answer: Nobody in their right mind would.
>> If they decide to change the setup of IM, then I'd be open to taking
>> another look. �Until then, I have *zero* plans to go back to play it
>> -- and I *like* pinball!
>
> If you like pinball, you play what is in front of you.
I did, for a while. I gave it an honest try, then tried it some more.
And after a few minutes, I said HEY! I'm NOT having fun! Then I
realized that there were many less expensive ways I could NOT have fun:
* Waiting for a bus
* Falling down a flight of stairs
* Giving myself a paper cut
* Gargling saltwater
* Playing RBION
* Watching American Idol
* Standing in line at the DMV
If that genuinely becomes the question, whether it's MORE FUN to stand in
line at the DMV or play a pinball machine, it's game over for *everyone*.
> Why do you think Boag hates AFM soo much?
'cuz he's Boag. :)
> On location, it is about making money. 10 minute game
> times are KILLERS! Hell, even % minute game times is going to limit
> earnings.
I'm not really arguing against that. I'd be OK with having higher
outlane posts, I can fight against that. I'm OK with a randomizer
occasionally throwing something SDTM, I can fight against that. I'm not
crazy about zero second ball savers, but in general I can fight against
that, too.
But when you do all that, *and* take away the entire ability to nudge,
no. I refuse. First, last, and every time. You will get no money from
me, and most pinball players will refuse the third or fourth coin drop.
> Cool. Sounds like Lyman and crew are busting *ss on this one
> considering their limited time on it so far. Big steps since some of
> the early reports. I am sure the game will be just fine, but hey, I
> may just take the outlane posts *OUT* when I throw it on location.
> Whatever it takes to EARN :-)
If you can get people to *keep* putting money in it on location in that
shape, hey more power to you. A clean game gets the first coin drop, but
it's the experience playing that first game that determines whether or
not you get the second drop.
TheKorn
a3ec-959...@z7g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
> gee, way to go out on a limb. EVERY game Stern has done supposedly
> *sucked* until all the dumb asses are reminded *what* a sweet game
> actually is. Spiderman, POTC, FG, and TSPP and all others were all
> bashed like CRAZY before and after coming out.
I know you're not talking to me, but...
TSPP *still* sucks. Nyahhhhhh! :P
(I know, you love it. I don't. But if I'm somewhere with some time to
kill, I'll play it.)
TheKorn
87f3-691...@g10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
> yeah, yeah, yeah, and SM sucked until Lyman did his final revision on
> the game too, right?
>
> You guys kill me rushing to judgement.
>
> CV I supposed sucked too until Cameron did the 2.4H roms. whatever...
That's the funny thing... the only game in recent memory that I can think
of that I significantly liked better with later software is WPT. (...and
then it's only if you do surgery to the game.) In general I don't get the
whole "oh this game sucks.... wait, new romz, now this game is awesome!"
phenomenon. For the most part new romz don't change the mechanics of how
the game plays. That was part of the reason why I like WPT after it's had
surgery done to it -- the game play DOES change significantly and makes it
a lot more *fun* (and hard!) to play.
Jason
underwhelming.
I understand software isn't complete. But to me, it does not have a
great flow either, which hey.. that's cool. Not all great games have
great flow. But IM doesn't seem to have dramatic shots to hit, either
(well, software once again). The loop is definitely nice and smooth,
as are the ramp shots, but a touch long on the ramp return, no big
deal though. But the total lights, sound, mechinical dramatics were
lacking. Just the two multiballs that I saw. I did like the war-
machine (raptor on JP) feature, which is always an andrenaline shot.
But there wasn't much else to really get excited about, nothing really
pulled you into the game. Software updates can change this? Maybe,
I'll play it again when the production software is on it of course.
Even people watching the game being played for the first time, just
sort of walked away after watching a half a game.
I will say this, though, to end on a high note, it's an overall really
nice looking game. The translite, cab, etc just look great.
Ken In Texas
royalty for use of the Trade Marked Texas Tilt :)
--
Ken In Texas
http://www.pinballrebel.com
Custom Pinball Cards, Jukeboxes, Drive In's
"Never ask a man if he's from Texas.
If he is, he'll tell you on his own.
If he ain't, no need to embarrass him."
azpinlawyer
> Custom Pinball Cards, Jukeboxes, Drive In's
>
> "Never ask a man if he's from Texas.
> If he is, he'll tell you on his own.
> If he ain't, no need to embarrass him."
Loved that BBH you could take for a walk!
Lloyd Olson
"TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.Net> wrote in message
news:Xns9D574AF15...@188.40.43.213...
Pinball Life
it is a decent "walk up" game. It's easy to understand and the
magnets keep things jumping, ball wise. The casual player will not
see the AP simularities, so that's probably a non-issue on location,
and location playing is the focus at Stern now. I'm all about putting
$$$ into location games on the rare occasion that I bump into one, but
it's not my "focus". I'm a collector and I focus on my collection and
the collections of my fellow collectors/friends. This is where I and
most other collectors play 99% of our games of pinball. IM is not for
the collector market (IMHO and Stern's opinion) so no collector should
feel bad about not wanting to purchase one. Play it on location if
the urge strikes you (or if you can find one) and you will be doing
exactly what Stern wants you to do It's somewhat of a win-win - Stern
pins get location plays (as Stern intends) and you get to play an
mediocre game of pinball for a very low "investment" :-).
Terry.
Jonny O
line of pinball players waiting to play? Therefore, why do you need
short ball times? Give people entertainment for their money. Making
the game random/drainy is trying to shorten a line that isn't there.
I've convinced a half dozen people to get off their bar stools to try
BBH, even buying them their first game. The most common thing I see
on location is a quick drain, and then they're out. I don't claim to
have crazy skills but I know more than just the basics, and when my
ball times are not significantly longer than theirs, they calculate
the value of "learning" the game is little. Likewise, I have seen
when I and others get on a run on some of the more skill-based games,
people are mesmerized. Seeing flipper technique on the next level and
they're like "I didn't know you could DO that."
This whole "make the ball random so the novices can hang with the
pros" thing will backfire in the end, I think. It will provide a few
quick bucks for the new game but when people wise up to the fact that
skill is out the window, they'll look elsewhere for entertainment.
Who wants to drop coin to get the same score every time?
Actually, if Ironman turns out to be a mostly random-fest like Big
Buck Hunter, it's perfect for the home, as you can cancel out the luck
with many plays and not be dropping in 75 cents a go.
On Apr 10, 9:27 am, Koz Pinlicious <pinlici...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> SWASS! So the game will actually earn, sweet! I am glad to see games
> playing more like em's on location...lower ball times due to proper
> set-up, low/no ball savers, and tight tilts. Now *THAT* is how you set
> up a game to earn$$$!
>
> Instead of the other way around? What, you want a game like Spider-man
> that shipped WAAAY to easy and then it doesn't earn? F-that.
>
> THAT is pinball, THAT is the ball is wild. EM's used to do it and
> still do to people all the time. Those are the only games you see
> multiplayers on regularaly because the ball times are *low*. I am glad
> Stern is going in this direction, especially on location.
> I mean, you buy the game, bring it home, set it up to *coddle* you as
> much as you want. Yu want to finish it every game, heck, just put
> rubber across the outlanes. I say 3 cheers for Stern on strpping up
> and helping the OP *EARN MONEY AGAIN*!
>
>
TheKorn
news:f_2dnU7nHq3-k1_W...@skypoint.com:
> I think I'd have a pretty good chance. LTG :)
That is but one of many reasons I don't consider you to be a typical op,
Lloyd. :)
c...@provide.net
set up with white rubber, out lanes
opened up as far as they would go.
the game didn't earn at all. then
parker suggested. i go the other
directions, and *close* the outlanes.
i just moved the two posts one
notch to the middle setting.
this one small change *doubled* the
gross quarter intake of the game.
i guess people don't like getting screwed.
and looking at the average game/ball
times on spiderman, they were clearly
getting a lickin'. So closing the outlanes
just a bit made a huge difference, and
the revenues doubled.
the point i'm making is this. as Korn
said, you can't totally screw the player.
tilts that are too tight, ball times that are
too *low*, no ball save, these are all
bad things.
especially no ball save. i mean you don't
have to have it set to 10 seconds, but
today, i think having a ball save is mandatory.
just a 2 or 3 or 4 second ball save is good.
this way the total newbie that immediately
loses the ball doesn't get screwed. constant
location screwings don't lend to repeat play.
i think stern has TOTALLY missed the mark
on HOW to decrease total game time. Setting
tilts too tight and taking away ball save is NOT
how you decrease game time!
as a reference i would like to state i operate
EM games in spades. So i have a pretty good
idea on what works with these.
People want a good value for their coin drop.
Having 5+ minute games does NOT really
factor into that frankly! It's not all about
(necessarily) having a long game. It's more
about perceived value. And perceived value
can definitely come in a 5 minute or less
game. But a 30 second game, well, that's just
a total screw, and NO ONE likes that.
Who ever or what ever stern is using for a model to
decrease game time is just mis-guided. There's
better ways to skin a cat. And ones that don't
make the player feel like they just got their
wallet stolen.
Koz Pinlicious
> I have a spiderman on location.
> set up with white rubber, out lanes
> opened up as far as they would go.
> the game didn't earn at all. then
> parker suggested. i go the other
> directions, and *close* the outlanes.
> i just moved the two posts one
> notch to the middle setting.
>
> this one small change *doubled* the
> gross quarter intake of the game.
>
> i guess people don't like getting screwed.
> and looking at the average game/ball
> times on spiderman, they were clearly
> getting a lickin'. So closing the outlanes
> just a bit made a huge difference, and
> the revenues doubled.
WOW, really Clay? Doubled you say? So tell me, what is *double* of
"didn't earn at all"?
>
> the point i'm making is this. as Korn
> said, you can't totally screw the player.
> tilts that are too tight, ball times that are
> too *low*, no ball save, these are all
> bad things.
These are all great things. What op wants their equipment beat on for
$.50 an hour beside you? Do the math and tell me what your max
potential earning time is in a bar setting when you have 5+minute ball
times. Maybe in a video store you can let the player play all day
because traffic is low, but when you have a popular location and more
people waiting to play like a couple of mine or Butterfly, then you
don't want the same player basking in the sun of long ball times and a
game that hands out free games every single play.
>
> especially no ball save. i mean you don't
> have to have it set to 10 seconds, but
> today, i think having a ball save is mandatory.
> just a 2 or 3 or 4 second ball save is good.
> this way the total newbie that immediately
> loses the ball doesn't get screwed. constant
> location screwings don't lend to repeat play.
well, which is it? 2, 3, or 4? you guys need to give specifics and
stop fishing your answers. Zero ballsaver is good for multiple
reasons. #1, newbies don't even know what a ball save is. #2, most
games have *safe* plunges (spiderman) where ball save isn't even a
factor. #3 all ball save does is take money out of an ops pocket. It
takes away the possibilities of "house balls". you know, so *the
house* can make money, earn a living, and keep pins on location ;-)
>
> i think stern has TOTALLY missed the mark
> on HOW to decrease total game time. Setting
> tilts too tight and taking away ball save is NOT
> how you decrease game time!
I've covered ball saves, and Clay, you do realize Stern is *testing* a
game right now. You do realize tilt mechs come in goodie bags right?
Stern can ship outlanes to help ops earn, but it is on the op to set
the tilts and for that matter *install them* in the first place and do
it correctly so they EARN. No 2 tilts are ever set the same. Ops have
the option to set tilts as *tight* or as *loose* as they want. So this
is a non-issue you are babbling on about.
>
> as a reference i would like to state i operate
> EM games in spades. So i have a pretty good
> idea on what works with these.
Does Stern make EM games? Em games havn't been made in what, almost 30
years? You really don't know jack about operating new games, cause if
you did, you wouldn't have called me on how to properly set one up
whan you got that spiderman, hence why you were throwing jabs on how
it didn't earn at all. Then by some miracle, you move outlane posts 1
spot and now it is paying for your kids college fund because earnings
doubled. Pull out your wooodrail leg painted white walking stick so
you can try and find a way to earn some quarters on *newer games in
this modern day location discussion.
>
> People want a good value for their coin drop.
> Having 5+ minute games does NOT really
> factor into that frankly! It's not all about
> (necessarily) having a long game. It's more
> about perceived value. And perceived value
> can definitely come in a 5 minute or less
> game. But a 30 second game, well, that's just
> a total screw, and NO ONE likes that.
Where do you get 30 seconds from? You don't have access to Sterns test
times. I can promise you game times are well over 30 seconds, hell,
you could probably let the game play itself for 30 seconds with ball
plunges and pop/sling action alone. Grab a clue.
>
> Who ever or what ever stern is using for a model to
> decrease game time is just mis-guided. There's
> better ways to skin a cat. And ones that don't
> make the player feel like they just got their
> wallet stolen.
Stern is doing what is best for Stern. Should any business not look
out for #1 first?
You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to operating
games Clay. If you did, people would listen, and *you* would be asked
your opinion. Unfortunately, you have stated many times how you just
love Ems and they are the end all be all. Well, they aren't making
EM's anymore, so applying what you know abut operation Em's to modern
day pins does nothing for anyone. Why not just give test results on a
Model T when testing out a Ferrari?
If you have such *great* suggestions on what to do to make a game earn
better, we are all ears. You keep saying Oh, I know this and I know
that, when really you don't know Jack. Really, speak up, I am sure the
entire pinball world wants to hear how Clay is gonna save modern
pinball when he is stuck in time operating 30 year old machines and
calling *Koz* on how to set up his new ones.
Koz (who was approached by Clay on how to set up his Stern Spider-man
pinball machine because he *knows* I know what I am talking about when
it comes to that! ;-P)
DesignerJpop
Well I have played a lot of Iron Man. Was at Gameworks
on Saturday (big crowd) and NO one was playing pinball.
All the other games were getting a lot of play with 100s of
kids and people (all ages) there. I think part of the problem
is the games have stools in front of them and that blocks the
game and gives the impression of "this is going to take a while"
IM in my opinion is a great looking game, but the rules are not
well designed and just rehash of old Stern rules. I do not understand
why they keep designing this way?? There is no focus or central idea
to the rules, just a bunch of disjointed stuff.
Like it says "Shoot for the Iron Man targets"...but the inserts are
not
labelled...just some tiny copy above them? It is not obvious. Bad
design
and art direction.
If I play IM I want to be Iron Man, build the suit, put it on,
activate the reactor
and crush stuff with heavy music behind me. That's cool! Also there is
no
humor and the voice sounds like it is from Indy 500 and not Tony
Starck?
I just don't get it....
Overall the game was way too fast, with drain after drain. I felt the
PF was at 8-9degress? So as a good player I was frustrated, and as a
novice player it was too hard to get the verve...to get the mojo.
But if it's earning well...then what the heck do I know? Right?
John Popadiuk
Mole
> But if it's earning well...then what the heck do I know? Right?
>
> John Popadiuk
LOL
> If I play IM I want to be Iron Man, build the suit, put it on,
> activate the reactor
> and crush stuff with heavy music behind me. That's cool!
I agree. What comic book reading kid didn't want to own a Iron Man
suit? I built a working VP Iron Man theme for myself years ago. I am
not a designer like John or Stern but building a suit was the game
play & rule set that I thought of right from the start. I wanted to be
Iron Man.
IM that I played the tilt was set way too tight from factory. I had
two back to back warnings with one single light nudge. It took me
right out of the game. I could not fight back had to watch the ball
bounce around then it was more luck then my skill.
If you can not build an interest by setting the tilt that hard or give
away a 5 sec ball save for a bad shot or similar then you got a hunk
of wood & metal that cost over $4000 collecting dust
Dan.
Rare Hero
game up to this point has had a setting for Ball Save. Did Stern
remove this for Iron Man, or are we just talking about one specific
machine that didn't have it set?
A short Ball Save is a necessity...nothing pisses off a location
player more than plunging the ball and having it go STDM before even
getting a flip. Hell, it pisses off my girlfriend on my Free Play
games!!!
Greg
Koz Pinlicious
So would you agree *that* is the bottom line John? Earnings?
IMHO every location is different, you need to know your player base.
If a location is going to require *coddling* of the player to no end
and ball times exceed a minute average, well IMHO that location is not
worth putting a machine in because it is doom to fail and your
equipment will get blown out with no chance of profit.
1 game = 3 minutes $.50
20 games and hour = $10 (minus replays, GCHS, matches, specials, extra
balls, and all other player coddling crap)
now, if you have a bar location, or any location, how many peak hours
of earning do you have? Maybe 20-25 hours?
So best case, in a perfect world, you have a game *if* ball times are
short that will earn $200-$250. Now cut that in half, you are looking
at $100-$125. So Maybe you can Earn as much as $500 a month(after a
split) if you have a killer location.
Now lets say a game lasts 6 minutes on average, you are down to $250
in your pocket a month, under ideal situations.
Now, lets say game times are 10 minutes on average, you are down to
$125 a month, and that isn't counting all the free crap games give
away.
Does everyone see the problem now? Mathematically, unless ball times
come way down, a game will take over a year to pay for itself even in
an ideal situation. See the writing on the wall now?
-Koz
Old School Al
game at Gameworks.
You can debate tilt and outlanes til the cows come home but John Pop
hit the nail on the head. The game lacks a verve, to use his word.
Mayyyybe the software can eventually overcome this but from the basics
we already have I don't see how the basic gameplay changes that much.
which is unfortunate.
SM was mentioned too in this thread and I can say I loved that game
from the earliest software versions. I played the location test game
and it was good fun even before it was fully realized as a software
package. IM, not so much to this point. (I am leaving the door open
though and hoping for the best.)
seymour-shabow
Ball savers and loose tilts do not encourage better play. If there is
some high risk shot that you have to make to progress in the game, a
second or 2 ball saver is ok, but ridiculously long ball savers do
nothing except guarantee a newbie some minimum game time.
More bad luck needs to go back into pinball there's no fun in mastering
a game is all you have to do is shoot a ramp that puts the ball back on
the flipper to shoot the ramp again.
AFAIK the tilt bobs do not come installed already from the factory - you
have to put them on, maybe it's different with stern games, but the
earlier b/w games I've dealt with it was shipped in the cash pan. So,
if this is the case for new sterns, blame the operator of the machine
for the tight tilt instead of stern.
(bah! Tilt warnings! Most early solid state games had no such thing.
EMs have a tilt warning - the lamps will start to come off right before
the tilt happens. Pretty cool actually, only had it happen once on a
flip flop - usually it's tilt.....)
-scott CARGPB#29
Rare Hero
> Ball savers and loose tilts do not encourage better play. If there is
> some high risk shot that you have to make to progress in the game, a
> second or 2 ball saver is ok, but ridiculously long ball savers do
> nothing except guarantee a newbie some minimum game time.
The assumption should be that most location pin players are "newbies"
lets not even start w/ "encouraging better play" ...the machine should
be encouraging people to have fun and like pinball.... and that's all
I'm talking about ...enough of a ball saver that an instant launch-to-
drain doesn't cost a player a ball. Nothing turns off a player more
than putting in 75c and feeling "cheated".
Greg
freeman
Is Iron Man done yet?
I'm one of those that can not tell a good pin, from a s-box,
, so please let me know if it's worthy of purchasing.
seymour-shabow
Maybe. How come when we were newbies though we didn't feel cheated out
of dimes/quarters though? 75 cents means zip to me now that I'm
working. When I was a kid (no allowance) what games I put my quarter in
was a very important choice as it meant the difference between being
able to parlay that quarter into an hour of play, or selling off games
on silverball mania/space invaders to other kids that did have $$$ to
spend, and going to the arcade and hanging around instead of playing.
How come people don't feel cheated when they play redemption games that
are over in about 10 seconds and they get a couple tickets for it?
It's tough to design a pin with the proper difficulty so newbies can
play it well and experts can't camp on it all day.
For ball times the game software should have 'bozo ball' (WMS term!) so
that a poor player gets a free extra ball for essentially doing nothing.
Also no doubt you've noticed that even with the long ball savers, people
still aren't flocking to pinball like they used to. A large part of
that IMO is that no one likes to play poorly and look like a fool in
front of their friends. Easier to say "pinball is stupid" than to LOOK
stupid playing. I of course have no shame I'll look stupid on purpose.
Challenges aren't meant to be easy.
-scott CARGPB#29
toyboy6
>
> 1 game = 3 minutes $.50
>
> 20 games and hour = $10 (minus replays, GCHS, matches, specials, extra
> balls, and all other player coddling crap)
>
> now, if you have a bar location, or any location, how many peak hours
> of earning do you have? Maybe 20-25 hours?
>
> So best case, in a perfect world, you have a game *if* ball times are
> short that will earn $200-$250. Now cut that in half, you are looking
> at $100-$125. So Maybe you can Earn as much as $500 a month(after a
> split) if you have a killer location.
>
> Now lets say a game lasts 6 minutes on average, you are down to $250
> in your pocket a month, under ideal situations.
>
> Now, lets say game times are 10 minutes on average, you are down to
> $125 a month, and that isn't counting all the free crap games give
> away.
>
> Does everyone see the problem now? Mathematically, unless ball times
> come way down, a game will take over a year to pay for itself even in
> an ideal situation. See the writing on the wall now?
>
> -Koz
>
Koz, your logic for the most part is pretty sound here. I think the
one thing most folks are trying to point out is that if the game times
are TOO short, then the average person will not feel that $.50
represents a good value for their time. If this happens, then repeat
customers for the game will be non existant and the machine will sit
idle for more than half of the time as shown in your analysis. The
key is to find the balance between hooking the player for multiple
games, but keeping the play times reasonable.
The other flaw to the cost side is that the pay back should be based
on an equation for how much the machine was purchased new vs. what it
could be sold for after say a year or two on location. The op should
have to recover and then profit from the difference of the two. Most
newer games are sold in the $4,500 range out of Stern. The wild card
in this equation is the "resale" value. If machines are viewed as
undesireable in the collector market, then their "ending" value will
be significantly decreased. Case in point - a year old SM vs. a year
old WOF. This is where I think Stern's decision to go simpler on the
playfields will have unintended consequences on the ops in the
future. Ops will be required to earn back more of the original
machine cost if it can't be sold to John Q public afterwards.
TheKorn
$6e1e...@read.cnntp.org:
> Maybe. How come when we were newbies though we didn't feel cheated out
> of dimes/quarters though?
I don't really have a problem with trying to get ball times down. But to
answer your specific question...
...because back then, we didn't have games that stopped the ball, then
THREW it into the outlane. Or if a game gave you a bad bounce off of a
randomizer (whiirlwind, fireball), you had some leeway in the tilt so you
at least had *a chance* at fighting back. There was the idea that "if I
only learned how to play better" then that wouldn't happen.
It's when you take away that chance to fight back, that's when the
screwage factor kicks in. There is no "...if I only learned how to play
better" angle. If there is no "if I only got better" factor, then there
is no draw to *repeat* play.
> How come people don't feel cheated when they play redemption games that
> are over in about 10 seconds and they get a couple tickets for it?
Because of the tickets so you can get a novelty comb, or a fake plastic
spider, or... pop rocks*! (i.e. some trivial residual value offsets the
screwage feeling, even if in truth it doesn't really get you much of
anything.)
> Also no doubt you've noticed that even with the long ball savers,
people
> still aren't flocking to pinball like they used to. A large part of
> that IMO is that no one likes to play poorly and look like a fool in
> front of their friends. Easier to say "pinball is stupid" than to LOOK
> stupid playing. I of course have no shame I'll look stupid on purpose.
I've noticed that even if games are empty, if *somebody* starts playing
and isn't in and out in thirty seconds that people tend to start playing
the other games. Possibly something related; nobody likes to look like a
fool by themselves, but in a group it's OK. :)
* Can you imagine the return if you could redeem tickets for crystal
meth instead?? :D
BoJo
easy or normal play? I thought when you selected easy your game was
based on time instead of # of balls. I could be totally wrong, but
for some reason thought I remembered playing a game setup that way.
Not that Stern would do this anyway but I was just curious if there
were games out there based on time and not # of balls.
Andrew Barney
> Thanks for the replys
> I thought this would look cool next SE SM but art is not everything. I
> want Stern to survive it looks
> like they will be losing thier home collectors but as Gary points out
> its not about us. Here's hoping
> Avatar is a more exciting game if that is in fact an upcomming title.
You should play it and decide for your self...
Andrew
seymour-shabow
That's been tried several times in pinballs' history. If it's not
traditional 3 or 5 ball play depending on the game/era, I tend to really
dislike it (so much so on Orbitor 1 to hack the rom to remove the
minimum game time..... ugh.)
-scott CARGPB#29
seymour-shabow
> seymour-shabow <seymour...@gmail.com> wrote in news:4bc36948$0$3420
> $6e1e...@read.cnntp.org:
>
>> Maybe. How come when we were newbies though we didn't feel cheated out
>> of dimes/quarters though?
>
> I don't really have a problem with trying to get ball times down. But to
> answer your specific question...
>
> ...because back then, we didn't have games that stopped the ball, then
> THREW it into the outlane. Or if a game gave you a bad bounce off of a
> randomizer (whiirlwind, fireball), you had some leeway in the tilt so you
> at least had *a chance* at fighting back. There was the idea that "if I
> only learned how to play better" then that wouldn't happen.
>
> It's when you take away that chance to fight back, that's when the
> screwage factor kicks in. There is no "...if I only learned how to play
> better" angle. If there is no "if I only got better" factor, then there
> is no draw to *repeat* play.
>
That's the 'hook' that's been missing from most pinball for the last
decade. Some goal to attain that you can ALMOST get, but fall short of,
and incentive to play again.
-scott CARGPB#29
BoJo
I am not suggesting that and I personally would never want to play a
timed game either. I just thought I played one like that before and
was wondering what games had that option.
Lloyd Olson
"BoJo" <sla...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:0aeea1b3-06bc-44a2...@x42g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
metallik
> Does everyone see the problem now? Mathematically, unless ball times
> come way down, a game will take over a year to pay for itself even in
> an ideal situation. See the writing on the wall now?
All the math goes out the window if no one is playing the game because
it is frustrating. I haven't played the IM in question, but it sure
sounds like it's not set up for the casual player to have any fun.
Koz, I think you severely overestimate the number of "good" players
out there. You could put a nice easy-set-up SM on location in cincy
and it'd earn fine if the location was good. There just aren't that
many people who can park on a game for half an hour, even one that is
set up "easy". Killing the fun for everyone to ward off the
occasional wizard is a stupid strategy IMHO, and it seems like most
people posting here agree with that and not your "difficult above all
else" mantra. The fact you feel the need to belittle anyone who
doesn't agree with you doesn't help :)
Koz Pinlicious
> > Does everyone see the problem now? Mathematically, unless ball times
> > come way down, a game will take over a year to pay for itself even in
> > an ideal situation. See the writing on the wall now?
>
> All the math goes out the window if no one is playing the game because
> it is frustrating.
What some people call frustrating, I call "the ball is wild". This is
pinball, not "I paid $.50 so I should be able to play as long as I
want."
I haven't played the IM in question, but it sure
> sounds like it's not set up for the casual player to have any fun.
Well, I can say this much, it is better to error on the side of the
op. You did see the point where ops have the option on the tilt
setting right? Past that, ball saves and all the other coddling crud
can go in the trash.
> Koz, I think you severely overestimate the number of "good" players
> out there. You could put a nice easy-set-up SM on location in cincy
> and it'd earn fine if the location was good.
What is earning fine in your book? I don't think we are on the same
page there at all. Try spending 4k on a game, put it on the corner,
and tell me how much you want it to earn with people getting a ride
for $.50 a pop.
There just aren't that
> many people who can park on a game for half an hour, even one that is
> set up "easy".
Who is talking 30 minutes? God, I hope not. How many people can play
for 10 minutes though? even more than 5 minutes? What do *you* think
is fair? Cause I can tell you this, your opinions are *way* too high.
Killing the fun for everyone to ward off the
> occasional wizard is a stupid strategy IMHO, and it seems like most
> people posting here agree with that and not your "difficult above all
> else" mantra.
If I was playing location pinball I would agree with you guys too. If
I didn't want Stern to succeed I would agree too. What you guys fail
to recognize is that a game has only so many *peak earning hours* in a
given week. If you have even average players *not wizards* such as
yourself putting 10 minutes on a game, winning free games, and passing
them along to potential paying customers, well, that does nothing to
help earnings. your opinion would matter more if you actually saw the
numbers and knew the bottom line. Players have been coddled for
decades and it has been a steady decline on earnings ever since. God
forbid Stern makes they games so they can *earn* ;-)
The fact you feel the need to belittle anyone who
> doesn't agree with you doesn't help :)
How am I belittling? Try buying a game, stick it on location, then
have an opinion thats worth its salt. Is that so tough? Of course
everyone will chime in here and say "oh, give me more ball time" ,
"oh, give me more free games" , "oh, pinball is too expensive" , "oh,
Iron Man handed me my lunch, they must have set it up too hard cause I
don't really suck this bad." ...ooops, ok, maybe the last one was
belittling ;-)
-Koz
gpsdrew
outlane gates as a feature that could be won.
I am a fan of game concept that starts easier for novice players and
gets harder for better ones.
outlane gates and kickbacks (ala whitewater) could be used to address
this issue and make the game more fun IMO...
Drew
Rare Hero
> How am I belittling? Try buying a game, stick it on location, then
> have an opinion thats worth its salt. Is that so tough? Of course
> everyone will chime in here and say "oh, give me more ball time" ,
> "oh, give me more free games" , "oh, pinball is too expensive" , "oh,
> Iron Man handed me my lunch, they must have set it up too hard cause I
> don't really suck this bad." ...ooops, ok, maybe the last one was
> belittling ;-)
How about this. Give me a few seconds of Ball Save in case it goes
right down the middle from launch....and turn off Free Games/Replays/
Match Sequence. Fair compromise? :)
Greg
ldnayman
BIG fan of kickbacks. First one is free, then you have to earn it.
Steve Ritchie figured that one out in 1980.
TheKorn
9d27-d69...@u21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> How am I belittling? Try buying a game, stick it on location, then
> have an opinion thats worth its salt. Is that so tough? Of course
> everyone will chime in here and say "oh, give me more ball time" ,
> "oh, give me more free games" , "oh, pinball is too expensive" , "oh,
> Iron Man handed me my lunch, they must have set it up too hard cause I
> don't really suck this bad." ...ooops, ok, maybe the last one was
> belittling ;-)
For a guy trying to get people to spend money and come to his brand-new
pinball show in a few months, you sure seem hell bent on pissing off a lot
of your potential customers.
c2
>
> If I was playing location pinball I would agree with you guys too. If
> I didn't want Stern to succeed I would agree too. What you guys fail
> to recognize is that a game has only so many *peak earning hours* in a
> given week. If you have even average players *not wizards* such as
> yourself putting 10 minutes on a game, winning free games, and passing
> them along to potential paying customers, well, that does nothing to
> help earnings. your opinion would matter more if you actually saw the
> numbers and knew the bottom line. Players have been coddled for
> decades and it has been a steady decline on earnings ever since. God
> forbid Stern makes they games so they can *earn* ;-)
>
I understand the point you are making, but it just seems to be am odd
philosphy... making game times frustratingly short in order to manage
demand that isn't there to start with. I don't have to wait in line in
order to play pinball... I just walk up and play.
Maybe its different elsewhere, but around here it seems the games need
to be fun FIRST. Then you can build up a demand. Perhaps then you can
figure out how to manage the demand to maximize earnings.
I haven't played IM either, but the strategy of creating killer-short
ball times (again, around here) would just leave the game standing there
with nobody playing. Nobody playing the game sorta implies it sucks,
no? If I'm a casual player, why would I want to play a sucky game...
even if I don't have to wait in line?
mnpinball
My thoughts as well ;)
phishrace
This I agree with. Thing is, if you take it all back too quick, you'll
lose your regular players. Locations that attract mostly casual
players might not notice it, but locations that depend more on regular
players will definitely notice it. We've slowly raised the tilt bobs
at Pizza Depot over the last few years and no games have been shoved
through a wall yet.
I learned long ago not to judge a new game after only playing one
example. Test game running early software or otherwise. I can see how
lots of folks still make that mistake.
-phish
phishrace
> Koz Pinlicious <pinlici...@gmail.com> wrote in news:e1c06053-26ce-4c21-
> 9d27-d697037d3...@u21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
>
> > How am I belittling? Try buying a game, stick it on location, then
> > have an opinion thats worth its salt. Is that so tough? Of course
> > everyone will chime in here and say "oh, give me more ball time" ,
> > "oh, give me more free games" , "oh, pinball is too expensive" , "oh,
> > Iron Man handed me my lunch, they must have set it up too hard cause I
> > don't really suck this bad." ...ooops, ok, maybe the last one was
> > belittling ;-)
>
> For a guy trying to get people to spend money and come to his brand-new
> pinball show in a few months, you sure seem hell bent on pissing off a lot
> of your potential customers.
At least he's got you guys talking about gameplay. One can only debate
the merits of each brand of AA batteries for so long.
-phish
boagman
saves gone? Fine, then...they're gone. We'll just spot that right up
front, since the example I'm going to use (and several examples
previous to it) don't have ball save timers.
You seem to have forgotten a little time, not too long ago, wherein
machines were able to earn *tons* of money at $.50 per play, with lots
of free games, extra balls, and what-not available to players. It was
a little time we like to call "the early 90's". TAF, obviously, would
be the pinnacle of this era, and there's no way, none at all, that you
can tell me that it didn't earn well. Anywhere. However, lots of
players could have good, long ball times on it, now couldn't they?
There was potential for all sorts of length in that game, and many
others previous to it.
You're definitely throwing the baby out with the bathwater, here. As
well, why aren't you shouting JUST AS LOUDLY for $1 play, with
machines coming out of the Stern factory not only preset to $1 play,
but having DBVs (in the US) already installed? Higher price-per-play
is warranted, but you're picking on small points and blaming a lack of
earnings on them. Taking into account the number of plays a machine
gives away, even with "good" players "abusing" them (::rolls eyes::),
you're still talking about a single-digit percentage of total plays,
and a low number at that.
I, too, haven't played the IM in question, but TAF and other games
used to wreak havoc with the ball via under playfield magnets back in
their day...but not all the time. There were certain times the games
would use them, and it's pretty safe to say that stuff like the
spinning disk in NBA just takes away a lot of the satisfaction of
playing a machine. Getting penalized for making shots just isn't very
good, man. In the old EM days, when you'd hit stuff and the game
would drain the ball, it was usually because of a bad ricochet off
rubber or something like that. Not because a magnet threw the ball
down the outlane, or a spinning disk did the same thing, or whatever.
From what I'm reading, your cure isn't going to save the patient.
Aron
cody chunn
street player and that *KOZ* is the center of the pinball multiverse.
Even assuming RGPers are the core street audience is laughably out of touch.
Everything you are pushing is several years premature, and may just kill off
pinball for good. Larry is right, punishing 98% of street players to give
*KOZ* what he wants in a pinball game is entirely counterproductive. THE
PLAYER BASE ISN'T THERE.
In 5 or 10 years when the player base has been rebuilt, *then* make the
games ripoffs so there's enough room to absorb all the quitters. Making the
street players wuit now is asking for the death knell.
Your shortsightedness will be your downfall operating pins.
IMO.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"Koz Pinlicious" <pinli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e1c06053-26ce-4c21...@u21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
DesignerJpop
per play. It's like anything else, if the perceived value is high per
pay unit...then I may play more or recommend to a friend.
....so if I am playing IM and my swipe (no idea how much a swipe is)
gets me 1 game...and the game experience is poor...then I probably
will not play much more. My value per cost is not worth is not
rationalized.
John
Craig C
And with TAF if the magnets bothered you there were strategic times
they were off and you could make a shot unimpeded. And you learned
this by playing the game TONS OF TIMES to figure it out.
Games should be hard but fair. I'm fine with no ball saves, i'm fine
with varied challenging layouts and rules that take some time to
figure it out.
Setting up a game where the player doesn't have a chance isn't helping
anyone.
When i 1st played black hole the more the game beat my ass the more i
wanted to play it. But it wasn't that i was getting ripped off...i
just needed to play better. The rules were there in front of me and
all i had to do was make the shots....not fight wiggle wobble tin foil
legs and an unfair setup.
-c
On Apr 12, 3:41 pm, boagman <boagmans...@gmail.com> wrote:
Koz Pinlicious
I thought Fireball had one of those too 8 years earlier ;-)
-Koz
Koz Pinlicious
> Koz Pinlicious <pinlici...@gmail.com> wrote in news:e1c06053-26ce-4c21-
> 9d27-d697037d3...@u21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
>
> > have an opinion thats worth its salt. Is that so tough? Of course
> > everyone will chime in here and say "oh, give me more ball time" ,
> > "oh, give me more free games" , "oh, pinball is too expensive" , "oh,
> > Iron Man handed me my lunch, they must have set it up too hard cause I
> > don't really suck this bad." ...ooops, ok, maybe the last one was
> > belittling ;-)
>
> For a guy trying to get people to spend money and come to his brand-new
> pinball show in a few months, you sure seem hell bent on pissing off a lot
> of your potential customers.
Really?
Why, because I have an opinion on *operating* pinball machines?
Is your skin that thin? Ok, I promise not to talk about operating pins
at the MPE :-)
Well, the games at the show will be on free play with settings varying
all over the place so there should be something there for everyone,
even you Korn ;-)
I mean seriously, you of all people should be able to hande a jab or 2
for how much you dish it out. BTW, I heard Iron Man is the *best
testing* game ever. Just a fyi.
-Koz
Koz Pinlicious
I guess I was wrong, I mean, Iron Man was just reported as *the* best
earning Test game they ever had. *someone* is playing the game, right?
-Koz
Koz Pinlicious
I know, right?
Everyone here is spazzing out that this *test* machine is gonna show
up in their home collections. If anything, this is the toughest
playing IM pinball machine that will ever grace the
earth...well...until we get a hold of 'em at www.MiPinball.com ;-)
-Koz
TheKorn
>> For a guy trying to get people to spend money and come to his
>> brand-new pinball show in a few months, you sure seem hell bent on
>> pissing off a lot of your potential customers.
>
> Really?
Yeah.
Koz Pinlicious
> Koz, I think you're going too far with this, though. You want ball
> saves gone? Fine, then...they're gone. We'll just spot that right up
> front, since the example I'm going to use (and several examples
> previous to it) don't have ball save timers.
ok, since it is convenient for your arguments, but that's cool ;-)
>
> You seem to have forgotten a little time, not too long ago,
not too long ago...hmmm...
wherein
> machines were able to earn *tons* of money at $.50 per play, with lots
> of free games, extra balls, and what-not available to players. It was
> a little time we like to call "the early 90's".
wow, TAF, only 2 decades ago...yes you are that old! LOL, we are the
same age! ;-) dude, it is time for our 20 year reunions! ;-P
TAF, obviously, would
> be the pinnacle of this era, and there's no way, none at all, that you
> can tell me that it didn't earn well. Anywhere. However, lots of
> players could have good, long ball times on it, now couldn't they?
> There was potential for all sorts of length in that game, and many
> others previous to it.
From what I hear from Chicago *playas* is that they can average 6-8
minutes and some runs over 10 min. So really, you will never stop the
truly skilled players unless you produce another "wiggler" ;-)
>
> You're definitely throwing the baby out with the bathwater, here. As
> well, why aren't you shouting JUST AS LOUDLY for $1 play, with
> machines coming out of the Stern factory not only preset to $1 play,
> but having DBVs (in the US) already installed? Higher price-per-play
> is warranted, but you're picking on small points and blaming a lack of
> earnings on them. Taking into account the number of plays a machine
> gives away, even with "good" players "abusing" them (::rolls eyes::),
> you're still talking about a single-digit percentage of total plays,
> and a low number at that.
When Stern was making games like potc, spiderman, tspp, lotr, games
with deep rules and long ball times, yes $1.00 a play was well
warranted. Now, that you don't have a novel written into a pinball
machine, at $.50 a play, short ball times seem to work well. imho.
>
> I, too, haven't played the IM in question, but TAF and other games
> used to wreak havoc with the ball via under playfield magnets back in
> their day...but not all the time. There were certain times the games
> would use them, and it's pretty safe to say that stuff like the
> spinning disk in NBA just takes away a lot of the satisfaction of
> playing a machine. Getting penalized for making shots just isn't very
> good, man.
I am sorry the guys from the 90's messed that up for everyone. Back in
the day, just because you made a shot diidn't mean you *deserved* to
have the ball on a silver platter.
In the old EM days, when you'd hit stuff and the game
> would drain the ball, it was usually because of a bad ricochet off
> rubber or something like that. Not because a magnet threw the ball
> down the outlane, or a spinning disk did the same thing, or whatever.
really? ever play a 72 fireball? rethink your point and get back to
me ;-)
>
> From what I'm reading, your cure isn't going to save the patient.
A lot of times, the patient gets a little sicker before they get
better. Everyone freaking out is the *shock* setting in, once you guys
get past that I am sure everyone will feel a lot better ;-)
-Koz
>
> Aron
Koz Pinlicious
> It looks like the problem here may be that you think *KOZ* is the typical
> street player and that *KOZ* is the center of the pinball multiverse.
>
> Even assuming RGPers are the core street audience is laughably out of touch.
>
> Everything you are pushing is several years premature, and may just kill off
> pinball for good. Larry is right, punishing 98% of street players to give
> *KOZ* what he wants in a pinball game is entirely counterproductive. THE
> PLAYER BASE ISN'T THERE.
>
> In 5 or 10 years when the player base has been rebuilt, *then* make the
> games ripoffs so there's enough room to absorb all the quitters. Making the
> street players wuit now is asking for the death knell.
>
> Your shortsightedness will be your downfall operating pins.
If i was catering to the 1% of cheap crybabies that play on location
and want to be coddled 24/7 I would have been out a long time ago like
all the other ops who listened to your song and dance. Take your act
somewhere else, it is old, tired, and without merit.
IMO
-Koz
>
> IMO.
>
> --
> -cody
> --CARGPB4
> [Note: Following any advice given in this message
> may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
> Follow advice at your own peril.]
>
> "Koz Pinlicious" <pinlici...@gmail.com> wrote in message
freeman
>
oh, EM spinning disk, that was Fireball. many 'players' hated
because of the random lost, and still don't like it today.
For me, I am fine with it.
Somewhere, there needs to be a balance between luck, and a game of
skill and amusement.
c2
Thats great news! Perhaps its not as brutal as reported... or perhaps
the attempt to actually market pinball is working for Stern.
Either way I hope its a huge success. I think most of us want to see
them succeed, even if we disagree on how to accomplish that goal.
Koz Pinlicious
> Koz Pinlicious <pinlici...@gmail.com> wrote innews:2a52a0c4-0382-41ce...@u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> For a guy trying to get people to spend money and come to his
> >> brand-new pinball show in a few months, you sure seem hell bent on
> >> pissing off a lot of your potential customers.
>
> > Really?
>
> Yeah.
Is it me, or are you still sore from the *fisting* Iron Man gave you
on test. Because honestly, I can't stop anyone from staying home and
pouting and will not put on a happy face and tell you lies.
Look, you don't like how Iron Man is set up on test, I get it, but the
game is earning better than any other Stern game before it, what do
you make of that?
-Koz
Koz Pinlicious
I agree Scott, what percentage do *you* suggest as being sea
level(fair)?
-Koz
Koz Pinlicious
Indeed. THAT is the bottom line.
Whatever keeps Stern going and keeps pinball alive.
-Koz
cody chunn
completely ignored my earlier response), so you win.
Good luck with your route.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"Koz Pinlicious" <pinli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f74e0030-b58f-4173...@5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Old School Al
apples here.
In the past they_never_gave away the location of these test games. (A
select few of us would still seek them out and eventually find one.)
Now, for the past few games, everyone and his brother can have at the
test game at Gameworks and play it to death so it's earning
more...wow, shocker!
I mean seriously. NBA, BBH and IM test games, to my knowledge, have
been 'given' to us at Gameworks so no more secret location shell game
to play. Which of those three titles do_you_think would earn most when
first released? duh.
On Apr 12, 4:20 pm, Koz Pinlicious <pinlici...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess I was wrong, I mean, Iron Man was just reported as *the* best
> earning Test game they ever had. *someone* is playing the game, right?
>
> -Koz- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
mnpinball
I account:
#1 Theme and kick ass looks/sound
#2 game is the "only" Iron Man around and pinball players know it.
Where else are they gonna play the freshness !
#3 short ball times/set up
mnpinball
for learning curves and testing purposes. The initial video with v.5
software looks dramatically different in magnet action of the video
seen by pinballace. I think software is an improving process and the
software guys are adjusting to the test game. It's not done untill
games start shipping right ;-) wait to judge untill it's "done". I am
sure they are trying to judge what to give the casual player and also
think of the home buyer and not give away all the cake up front. I
like a challenge but in the same respect I don't like a monster 40
minute opus !
3 to 4 minute entertainment value is about right. Addams and Fishtales
did a wonderful job.
I agree what someone said is make the Monger magnet sparatic and let
the learning player have a chance to make some skilled shots at the
appropiate times.
Koz Pinlicious
My point was, and thanks for re-enforcing it, was this...
Yes, everyone knows where it is, yet some complain about ball times
and unfair set-up(and those who said they won't play it anymore and
stated others won't as well) it is still earning great despite those
claims. Now, If it is true what people say that it will earn even
better if the tilt were looser and the pitch not so high, then we may
have a winner here as you can pretty much bet no ops will set the game
up as challenging as the Stern test game is, as unfortunate as that
is ;-)
-Koz
TheKorn
ab9c-ac6...@y14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>> >> For a guy trying to get people to spend money and come to his
>> >> brand-new pinball show in a few months, you sure seem hell bent on
>> >> pissing off a lot of your potential customers.
>>
>> > Really?
>>
>> Yeah.
>
> Is it me, or are you still sore from the *fisting* Iron Man gave you
> on test.
It's you. You're either too stupid or too arrogant (or possibly both) to
recognize when someone is trying to waive a *friendly* red flag in your
direction. I.E. HEY, you *might not* want to be such a flaming dickhead in
the way you're saying stuff if two months down the road you're going to
turn around and ask people to A) make time to go to your show and B) spend
money at your show.
metallik
> If i was catering to the 1% of cheap crybabies that play on location
> and want to be coddled 24/7 I would have been out a long time ago like
> all the other ops who listened to your song and dance. Take your act
> somewhere else, it is old, tired, and without merit.
Okay, this is almost comical, but I'm dying to hear the breakdown.
So, if you're claiming that 1% of location players are "cheap
crybabies" .. what are the other 99 out of 100? :) I mean, we're
talking about the general public here, who for the most part, don't
even realize pinball machines HAVE difficulty settings, adjustable
outlanes or the like. So, they might not be crying, but they're also
not going to keep playing PAPA-style machines - they will move on to
something else they feel is more fun.
Honestly, how many 'really good' players do you think are out there??
I'd estimate there are less than 100 "really good" players here in the
greater cincy area (2M+ population). You have a severely skewed view
regarding the typical pinball machine on location and the caliber of
player playing it, probably because you're so involved with
tournaments and a few locations that DO have a serious player base.
Those conditions are not the norm :) Making a game even harder when
the vast, vast majority of location players around the country are
already having sub 5-minute games is a dumb idea. You will LOSE
players due to frustration and indifference. Again, if the game is no
fun, the general public isn't going to play it, and all the rest of
the arguments are moot when the cashbox is empty. Pinball is selling
entertainment, and as Korn pointed out - killer tilt + killer outlanes
+ constant magnet action = fuck this. Loosen the tilt or close up the
lanes a bit or do SOMETHING to make it less frustrating.
Pinball Life
>
> When i 1st played black hole the more the game beat my ass the more i
> wanted to play it. But it wasn't that i was getting ripped off...i
> just needed to play better. The rules were there in front of me and
> all i had to do was make the shots....not fight wiggle wobble tin foil
> legs and an unfair setup.
>
> -c
Yeah, what's up with the thin-ass legs on IM? No wonder the tilt
keeps making contact, the game won't stop wobbling back and forth.
Seriously, it was crazy on the machine I played. I bent down and felt
the legs; very thin, not the same legs as they used to use on previous
machines.
Terry.
Koz Pinlicious
> Koz Pinlicious <pinlici...@gmail.com> wrote in news:6b3e1e35-b848-4b8e-
> ab9c-ac6c4651b...@y14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
It isn't "MY" show, it is a group effort.
Dude, seriously, this was and is an RGP debate, you want to hold a
grudge over some verbiage back and forth, it is a free country.
-Koz
Pinball Life
>
> Whatever keeps Stern going and keeps pinball alive.
>
Terry.
tktlwyr
Koz has such a boner over this game, you have to wonder how much Stern
payed him to promote their game for them? LOL
cody chunn
cheerleader outfit and pom-poms.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"tktlwyr" <pazlaw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e50157d6-7981-45eb...@i37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
chuck
Not to throw any fuel on this already out-of-control fire but here's
my 2 cents. Like the vast majority of people in this thread I'm not a
route operator and never will be. I wouldn't begin to know how
earnings are effected based on difficulty of the machine setup. I
could guess like most of you are doing but none of us here can be
classified as average non-pinhead joes who might walk up to the
machine. Therefore most of the bickering going on here is invalid. A
good route operator should monitor usage and earnings and be able to
determine optimal setup based on historical data. The problem is most
route operators suck and don't care if their machines work. So, is
there a point to my post?? Sure, RELAX PEOPLE! We all love pins. We
all want to see them do well. We all have opinions. Many people are
coming off as assholes in this thread and only a few of you are real
assholes ;-)
Take a deep breath, relax, play one of your pins, and walk away from
this thread.
chuck
> I can't wait to see his new black and red (bad color scheme) Stern
> cheerleader outfit and pom-poms.
Black and red is actually a very good color scheme =)
Raymond
you a fighting chance or else it's just a slot machine in disguise.
However, there are many more ways to get earnings up than to open the
outlanes, crank the tilts and pitch, and have magnets hurl the balls
into the outlanes. You could implement a high replay boost, so that
maybe a good player could get one replay, but any more would be
practically impossible. You could change the difficulty settings to
give out extra balls less liberally. You could raise the price per
game to $1.00. Just don't "f*** the player without lube" ie. take away
his fighting chance and you'll be fine.
cody chunn
:0)
Goooooo, STERN! Awriight! Whooo!
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"chuck" <ch...@clhess.com> wrote in message
news:2cdaa036-8544-40cf...@s9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
mnpinball
I also think a left outlane kickback would have been great for this
particular layout.
Have a somewhat "gimmie" on the first one and make you earn the
following ones.
Steve Ritchie's STtNG, HSII, NF,T2 all had them and they were
implemented well.
Old School Al
game to see whats what regardless of how it is setup. (Korn excepted)
I have played this test game more than the others prior to it already
because I want this game to be great and am holding out hope. For the
record I have had a few decent games (ball time wise) on IM despite
the setup and it isn't just the setup that is lacking here. (I know, I
know early code and I am waiting to pass final judgement.)
No one was very excited about NBA or BBH, test game earnings reflected
that. To get excited that IM earnings are beating those two games is,
well, nothing to get excited about. Hell, NBA isn't even there anymore
but 24 is! Not to mention FGy, SOP and RBION so that shows you what
kind of earnings NBA generated. squat
Bottom line, it is earning right now cause it looks cool and sounds
cool and is the new kid on the block. And unless things change it will
be a short lived fad just like New Kids on the Block. Oh, IMO, I
should add. :)
Lloyd Olson
around them. A lot of pinheads will wait and play it for free at someone's
home. LTG :)
> "Old School Al" <kues...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eb34fa1e-3832-4279...@b23g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Koz Pinlicious
Just not a hater :-)
-Koz
Koz Pinlicious
> I can't wait to see his new black and red (bad color scheme) Stern
> cheerleader outfit and pom-poms.
I always knew you had a crush on me Cody ;-X
-Koz
>
> --
> -cody
> --CARGPB4
> [Note: Following any advice given in this message
> may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
> Follow advice at your own peril.]
>
> "tktlwyr" <pazlawoff...@gmail.com> wrote in message
cody chunn
must have all been terrible failures on route with protracted ball times,
free games, etc. No way they made ops any money at all.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9988810f-9a65-47a3...@i25g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Koz Koz
> We (the pinheads of the world) will initially pour money into any new
> game to see whats what regardless of how it is setup. (Korn excepted)
> I have played this test game more than the others prior to it already
> because I want this game to be great and am holding out hope. For the
> record I have had a few decent games (ball time wise) on IM despite
> the setup and it isn't just the setup that is lacking here. (I know, I
> know early code and I am waiting to pass final judgement.)
>
> No one was very excited about NBA or BBH, test game earnings reflected
> that. To get excited that IM earnings are beating those two games is,
> well, nothing to get excited about. Hell, NBA isn't even there anymore
> but 24 is! Not to mention FGy, SOP and RBION so that shows you what
> kind of earnings NBA generated. squat
>
> Bottom line, it is earning right now cause it looks cool and sounds
> cool and is the new kid on the block. And unless things change it will
> be a short lived fad just like New Kids on the Block. Oh, IMO, I
> should add. :)
well, if it got you to play off just that, what more does a 1st time
player need? :-D
-Koz
freeman
For single player games, it the percentage of luck does not matter too
much.
Though, it would be important if free games were available via a
replay score, and you were trying to hit the replay. Of course, with
the modern auto-re-flexing replay systems, it would adjust for the
chance element too.
For multiplayer games, I would like to see about 15% scoring potential
through luck.
This would give medium level players a chance to beat great players.
(such as a true "B" division player, against an "A" division player).
Likewise, "C" division players, would have a better chance at beating
a "B" division player.
Really, what I am thinking of can be discribed by statistical
distributions.
I have looked at both tournament and league scores in the past, and I
see that scores by player are distributed rather log-normal.
If you can get the two distributions to overlap more, you have a
greater chance of the outcome not being so predictable.
So, a multiplayer game is funner.
An example of chance playing a big part of the outcome, is the game
Spin Wheel, which is a wonderful EM.
The challenge with using chance/luck, is to keep scoring 'balanced'.
mnpinball
mnpinball
> Not always so. As collections grow and people form their social circles
> around them. A lot of pinheads will wait and play it for free at someone's
> home. LTG :)
>
>
>
> >news:eb34fa1e-3832-4279...@b23g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > We (the pinheads of the world) will initially pour money into any new
> > game to see whats what regardless of how it is setup.
Good thing I'm over an hour away from any pinheads ;-)
Lloyd Olson
get to your place.
Sometime sit and think a spell when you have pinheads gathered at your
place. Look at the faces, see any that used to patronize my business and now
don't have to ?
I can't compete with free Jason and am about done trying.
You are a great guy Jason and what you have done with the Minnesota Pinball
Hall Of Fame to promote and support pinball is awesome. There isn't an
infinite amount of pinball players out there. And when they can hit your
place a couple times a year, why go any where else ?
> "mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:22036c78-836a-4387...@z9g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
mnpinball
> People will drive hours to play pinball for free Jason, many right by me to
> get to your place.
>
> Sometime sit and think a spell when you have pinheads gathered at your
> place. Look at the faces, see any that used to patronize my business and now
> don't have to ?
>
> I can't compete with free Jason and am about done trying.
>
> You are a great guy Jason and what you have done with the Minnesota Pinball
> Hall Of Fame to promote and support pinball is awesome. There isn't an
> infinite amount of pinball players out there. And when they can hit your
> place a couple times a year, why go any where else ?
>
>
>
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> > Good thing I'm over an hour away from any pinheads ;-)
To be fair Lloyd I open my door to the public open house in September
every year. That's once for the big one.
Other times more recently it's impromptu gatherings for the play
testing for the IFPA touney next month. Which makes it a few more
times than usual and will come to an end soon. It's important these
games get good testing so they play at the best they can. Other than
that I will have a few over for a new game unveiling. So it's not as
often as you make it out to say. I live in the country and I enjoy my
privacy on my dead end road ;). But I do understand your point and
concerns Lloyd.