Re: CPR TZ Mini Playfield Reproduction Arrived Today
Flipper Fiend
> It's here! Pictures:
>
> http://gallery.metahugh.com/main.php?g2_itemId=23459
>
> Can anyone else see what is missing?
>
> Hugh
Wow! Major bummer.
Perhaps "Flip Here" is trademarked by Wayno.
-Jungle Queen Steve
Harry Williamson
> On Feb 8, 8:58 pm, "Pinhead!" <starjers...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 8, 8:45 pm, Hugh <metah...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > It's here! Pictures:
>
> > >http://gallery.metahugh.com/main.php?g2_itemId=23459
>
> > > Can anyone else see what is missing?
>
> > > Hugh
>
>
> > Norman
>
> Look closer :)
>
> Hugh
The bevel underneath the flip here?
Cayle George
site. they did them "proto style"
The bevel is funny though.
sandro
Yup, mine is missing them as well.
Bummer.
-Sandro
Don H.
playfield. Looks beautiful but why not make it complete with the
bevel? It does make a difference! Reviewed the photo gallery on CPR
and it's clear that there is no bevel.
- Don
Hugh
Yes, unfortunately the bevels are not there. Its a shame because I
think its a very nice mini playfield. It won't go to waste but it
will be a while before I can send it out to get fixed and re-
clearcoated. Everything else looks great, the only main difference I
see in the screening is the black and yellow dot pattern on the bottom
left side of the pyramid is a bit different, otherwise it is very nice
looking. I love how it looks without the flip here text. This is my
first CPR product.
Hugh
gary stuart
>
> - Show quoted text -
i am confused i did not know the mini playfield gave any trouble? what
happens to the original?
Taylor-VA
Beemus
> It's here! Pictures:
>
> http://gallery.metahugh.com/main.php?g2_itemId=23459
>
> Can anyone else see what is missing?
>
> Hugh
It always has to be SOMETHING! Can't wait for the explanation/excuse
on this one.
"It's minor. It's not necessary. It's simple enough to do it yourself.
The whitewoods didn't have the bevel. Bevels cost more to ship. Our
sample didn't have bevel. Bevel requires more tooling and added cost,
wanted to keep the cost down for customers (my fave bs, after-the-fact
excuse.) The ones in Europe didn't have bevel. Non-bevel is better
than bevel. If you look underneath, the bottom bevel is a different
color. Acrylic bevel is better than PETG bevel."
bah!
Beemus
Nevermind. I forgot I should just be happy someone is remaking these.
robotron john
For the money I would have thought they would have taken the time to
get it 100% right. I can not believe that no one else noticed the
missing bevel. Did they not send out a few samples for people in the
know to look it over before silk screening and clear coating? I think
I will just keep the mini pf installed on my game. Not willing to take
the chance or addition expense to correct a mistake that at $150+
shouldn't have. No offense to CPR, the mini looks beautiful but I
can't justify the expense.
Stu
"bevel"....
Here is the information posted directly undeneath the first photo in
their gallery:
45-degree exit bevels are eliminated, as our heartier clearcoat will
edge-protect well, not requiring the wear-prevention band-aid-fix of a
bevel as they needed in 1993. Back then, routed TZ's would have worn
the clean sharp edges right off the Powerfield's exits. So they opted
to cut 45-degree angles into the bare wood, making a gentler exit for
the ball - but creating a spot to stain and get black. Who needs a
repro facelift with historical weak points. Reproductions shouldn't
need Cliffy protectors :)
Dosent anybody actually "read" discriptions of products prior to
purchasing them so that they know exactly what they are buying?....Or
are people just looking for something to complain about and too lazy
to read?
Taylor-VA
jackofdiamonds
It's amazing that anyone would give CPR grief.Even if/when they make a
mistake,Kevin is always there with some type of solution/
resolution.Remember the hobby before CPR?
Definitely a lot more fun with them in the mix.I lobbied long and hard
for BoP plastics,my case included posts here on the group.Guess what?
They listened and made the mini-playfield!!
Awesome,even if they made a mistake,the effort was there.They listened
to one collector and made it a reality.A fuckin' impossibility before
these guys(CPR) showed up.
From parts distributors,to restorers,to collectors,a huge + to our
hobby.Scott
miracleman
This 'justification' seems odd.
CAN cpr do bevels on pfs?
Have they done it on any pfs so far?
Just curious.
On Feb 9, 7:00 am, Stu <frie...@genysis.com> wrote:
John Wart, jr
But that information isn't on the *order* page. Many customers likely
never clicked the photo gallery page to see that information.
I looked at the gallery, and honestly don't remember seeing that
information there.
I think it would make sense to put something in bold red text, or
something more obvious, when a 'reproduction' product is 'improved' -
and note that I'm putting 'reproduction' and 'improved' in quotes,
because the two words don't go together when something is cosmetically
different.
And now for my disclaimer - just because I have an opinion about
something does *NOT* indicate that I'm not grateful that the product is
available.
Slate
Also what are the physics in a 90 drop off? The ball rolls of the end.
Do you think 45 would change that. Instead it would have 2 corners to
navigate instead of one. Do you think that would change it much.
AND are these people buying their PF so they can put their TZ on
location at a bar or restaurant? I doubt it. I rarely replace Mylar as
these machines with monthly waxing, etc will never get the abuse of on
location.
Bevels are good for holes where balls enter, where they could smack
the edge hard. Drop offs are a different beast.
Hugh
That description was not there when I ordered. In fact I honestly
don't recall it being there when that gallery was first posted. Oh
well shame on me I guess.
I have always said reproductions are great as long as they are
reproductions, i.e. same as the factory. I apologize if it seems like
I am complaining, I'm not trying to I'm just a bit disappointed. The
only way I could see not having the bevels would be an issue is on the
top hole, sometimes the ball gets flung to the top weakly and with the
bevel the ball would fall off, with this mini you have to make a solid
shot to the top. And maybe its just me but I like the look of the
bevel :)
Like I said no big deal, I'll send it off and get the proper bevel
added someday.
Hugh
jackofdiamonds
I guess it will come down to whether or not you can live with it as is
or add the bevel.It's a personal thing....I'm cool as is unless
gameplay changes,but I don't think it will.Install,test play,make
choice.
Chris Hibler
> It's here! Pictures:
>
> http://gallery.metahugh.com/main.php?g2_itemId=23459
>
> Can anyone else see what is missing?
>
> Hugh
That 1/8" bevel is not going to make a darn bit of difference folks.
If you have the capability to swap a PF, even if only a mini, I would
guess you'd have the capability to make a small router, Dremel, or
wood file cut, to create the bevel yourself.
It's a wonder why anyone would ever take on a pinball parts
reproduction project with all of abuse they take from picky
collectors. I can't see it being worth their time. Thank goodness that
the love pinball outweighs the abuse they take, at least for now.
Take a chill pill folks.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
Craig C
would want it to look as close to the original as possible.
That said. i hand filed in the bevels on the IPB addams pf on 3 games
and brushed on a little clear and they looked great.
-c
Beemus
> This 'justification' seems odd.
They always do when they make no sense. Lazy... period.
Why NOT make it look original? In this hobby of restorations I'd think
that is what you'd strive for. I could see it if we were talking about
an actual improvement. This is just a step to reduce work... period.
Of no value to the customer... NONE. It's the closest part of the
mini to the player... it is right there, glaring at you.
I remember when IPB mis-routed the merlin holes in the MM playfields.
People were getting phone calls FROM IPB the day they arrived on
people's doorsteps saying, "Don't open it. Just ship it back to us."
At their cost.
Sorry I didn't read the fine print. Buyer beware. Only in America...
no wait, Canada too I guess.
Beemus
They get paid to deal with customers. If they don't hit the mark...
not our fault.
Yeah, I've swapped a playfield... shouldn't have to grind down through
clearcoat and wood for a reproduction to make it look right. How much
is it to ask the "experts" producing these things to do so before art
and clear is applied instead?
Half-assed workmanship imo.
jackofdiamonds
> On Feb 9, 6:15 am, Chris Hibler <ch...@Team-EM.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 7:45 pm, Hugh <metah...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > It's here! Pictures:
>
> > >http://gallery.metahugh.com/main.php?g2_itemId=23459
>
> > > Can anyone else see what is missing?
>
> > > Hugh
>
> > That 1/8" bevel is not going to make a darn bit of difference folks.
> > If you have the capability to swap a PF, even if only a mini, I would
> > guess you'd have the capability to make a small router, Dremel, or
> > wood file cut, to create the bevel yourself.
>
> > It's a wonder why anyone would ever take on a pinball parts
> > reproduction project with all of abuse they take from picky
> > collectors. I can't see it being worth their time. Thank goodness that
> > the love pinball outweighs the abuse they take, at least for now.
>
> > Take a chill pill folks.
> > --
>
> They get paid to deal with customers. If they don't hit the mark...
> not our fault.
> Yeah, I've swapped a playfield... shouldn't have to grind down through
> clearcoat and wood for a reproduction to make it look right. How much
> is it to ask the "experts" producing these things to do so before art
> and clear is applied instead?
>
> Half-assed workmanship imo.
refund?Email them and say it's not accurate and you want your money
back.Their customer service is good,I'm sure there's a way to resolve
it.
Half-assed workmanship is a little harsh when the rest of it looks
great.I'm sure Kevin will respond to this thread at some point,as he
usually does when controversy about their products come up,but if I
was as disappointed in something,I would reach out to the company and
see what can be done about it.Scott
Menace
>
> They get paid to deal with customers. If they don't hit the mark...
> not our fault.
> Yeah, I've swapped a playfield... shouldn't have to grind down through
> clearcoat and wood for a reproduction to make it look right. How much
> is it to ask the "experts" producing these things to do so before art
> and clear is applied instead?
>
> Half-assed workmanship imo.
If you don't like it, don't buy it.
With all the effort you put into bashing CPR, why don't you take the
bull by the horns and try reproducing a PF on your own and see how it
goes?
I'm not saying you're not justified to be disappointed with the
product, but if all your going to do is trash them (which is all you
seem to do) then put your $$ where your mouth is and step up to the
plate and show everyone else how it's supposed to be done.
D
Chris Hibler
> On Feb 9, 6:15 am, Chris Hibler <ch...@Team-EM.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 7:45 pm, Hugh <metah...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > It's here! Pictures:
>
> > >http://gallery.metahugh.com/main.php?g2_itemId=23459
>
> > > Can anyone else see what is missing?
>
> > > Hugh
>
> > That 1/8" bevel is not going to make a darn bit of difference folks.
> > If you have the capability to swap a PF, even if only a mini, I would
> > guess you'd have the capability to make a small router, Dremel, or
> > wood file cut, to create the bevel yourself.
>
> > It's a wonder why anyone would ever take on a pinball parts
> > reproduction project with all of abuse they take from picky
> > collectors. I can't see it being worth their time. Thank goodness that
> > the love pinball outweighs the abuse they take, at least for now.
>
> > Take a chill pill folks.
> > --
>
> They get paid to deal with customers. If they don't hit the mark...
> not our fault.
> Yeah, I've swapped a playfield... shouldn't have to grind down through
> clearcoat and wood for a reproduction to make it look right. How much
> is it to ask the "experts" producing these things to do so before art
> and clear is applied instead?
>
> Half-assed workmanship imo.
And I just finished a KISS PF swap. It would have been nice to not
have to locate a bunch of holes and screw points either as the repro
PF wasn't completely drilled or dimpled. But is the customer happy to
have a reproduction KISS PF that looks awesome when done? Ya...
Like JoDiamonds said, if you're unhappy, talk with your wallet. Or,
enter into the repro business yourself. If there are as many
perfectionists out there as you suspect, perhaps it's a winning
business proposition.
--
Beemus
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
You said it... they're good about responding to controversy.
Beemus
Didn't know what I was getting. Thought they "loved" the hobby enough
to get it right.
"Hey, that's a repro!" That's what i like to say when i first walk up
to a freshly shopped/restored pin.
Again, sorry for being disappointed and speaking my mind. I typically
keep my mouth shut on minor stuff because CPR has conditioned me to
believe that A) I, along with everyone else, is color blind and the
sun is to blame for every color mismatch. B) They know the science of
acrylic vs PETG better than everyone else. C) They know what is best
for me at the expense of originality. D) There is no orange... period.
It all started out as red originally, light made it that way.
This has just reached a tipping point for me. Fair to spill everything
I've been thinking all along at once over this mini-playfield... maybe
not. But hey, its business... hopefully some tough love will help
light a fire. I don't do much bashing around here. I've ordered
plastic sets, a playfield and now this mini-pf from CPR so its not
like I'm biching and moaning for my own shts and giggles.
No, I know MY limitations... won't see me doing woodwork anytime
soon. :)
Hugh
I think you are being way too harsh. I wouldn't say it was half-assed
at all, not in the least. I honestly never saw anything about the
bevels being taken out. It wasn't on the order page and it wasn't on
the PDF. The ultimate question is, would it have swayed my decision
to buy? Not at all, but I was definitely surprised to find the
difference after the fact. BTW I did get in on the preorder since the
beginning on this one.
Hugh
Hugh
turbo20lbs
Beemus is a little fired up, but ultimately right I'd say. It really
burns me that the "description" in the photo gallery has a little
disclaimer about the bevel missing, I don't recall reading that before
on the PDF. Basically it looks unfinished. No way I'm putting it in
without a bevel. Also the bottom hole has an artwork "cutout" in the
black area FOR the bevel. This sticks the flaw out even more.
jackofdiamonds
All opinions are welcome here.It's good to have these discussions.
Hugh
I definitely think you should speak your mind, 110%. That's why I
posted this in the first place. It's all in the name of discussion
IMHO. If I were super pissed I would have contacted CPR by now asking
for my money back, but this revelation does mean that I will take a
closer look on the next item I buy. And I'm with you, I'm not doing
the bevel myself, I too know my limitations :)
Hugh
Captain Neo
> It's here! Pictures:
>
> http://gallery.metahugh.com/main.php?g2_itemId=23459
>
> Can anyone else see what is missing?
>
> Hugh
why did they repo these? I've done a ton of TZ sets and not once have
I see one of these with wear. This was not a majorly needed part.
They should focus on playfields people really need.
Hugh
Oh really?
I guess you put mine completely out of your mind... considering the
quality of work you did on my TZ playfields. :(
http://gallery.metahugh.com/main.php?g2_itemId=22265
Hugh
Hugh
Here's another:
http://gallery.metahugh.com/main.php?g2_itemId=22260
Hugh
Stu
John Wart, jr
A lot of them have planking. Horrible amounts of planking. I have 2, and
one is salvageable, but it would cost more than the repro costs to make
it look nice....
Seems like $149 is a nice price for a quality repro, and it is needed.
Tony @ GLM
> Looks like CPR knew what they were doing by leaving out the
> "bevel"....
>
> Here is the information posted directly undeneath the first photo in
> their gallery:
> 45-degree exit bevels are eliminated, as our heartier clearcoat will
> edge-protect well, not requiring the wear-prevention band-aid-fix of a
> bevel as they needed in 1993. Back then, routed TZ's would have worn
> the clean sharp edges right off the Powerfield's exits. So they opted
> to cut 45-degree angles into the bare wood, making a gentler exit for
> the ball - but creating a spot to stain and get black. Who needs a
> repro facelift with historical weak points. Reproductions shouldn't
> need Cliffy protectors :)
>
> Dosent anybody actually "read" discriptions of products prior to
> purchasing them so that they know exactly what they are buying?....Or
> are people just looking for something to complain about and too lazy
> to read?
I'm not going to complain about what CPR did or didn't do. That's
their choice. But I do find it really hard to believe their claim
that the bevels were put on the mini playfield to prevent wear. Given
what I've seen from wear in TZ and other games, I'm pretty darn sure
that Williams didn't care about such a minor detail as that.
I bet the bevel was there to enhance slow ball exit speed and nothing
more.
Tony
www.greatlakesmodular.com - Re-Engineered Pinball Parts!
yancy
> It's the closest part of the mini to the player...
> it is right there, glaring at you.
If your discerning eye didn't spot it in a half dozen closeup shots of
bare playfields in CPR's gallery, I wouldn't worry too much about
players seeing it in the game.
Yancy
Beemus
From their e-mail sent to those who pre-ordered:
As a preorder candidate, your slot supercedes the general public's
access to these, until the preorder group has been given the chance to
buy first. Thus PowerFields will not appear for sale on our web site
until the entire preorder group has been given first dibs - as usual.
So.... no gallery, no close ups, no disclaimer.
Just the flyer: http://www.classicplayfields.com/tz-flyer.pdf
Had to pay quick to ensure you got one of the 25 that actually have
the original artwork.
Forgive me for being a supportive customer and having a little faith.
yancy
> So.... no gallery, no close ups, no disclaimer.
I apologize, I didn't think about pre-order customers not seeing
photos. Good luck as you continue to navigate this crisis.
Yancy
Beemus
No apology needed :). I just wanted to clarify.... but thank you.
machine.slave
Could you not simply sand in (or grind in) the bevel yourself if it's
that much of a concern? Sure that area won't be clearcoated anymore..
but then if you look at the originals, they weren't cleared either.
If they had included the bevel and then cleared it.. well then it's
not the same as the original, and that'd be something different to
complain about.
This is an incredibly small niche market here folks.. sure the repro
stuff is only 98-99% accurate sometimes, but well.. consider the
alternative. I'd take an unbeveled repro part over a planked up
original part any day of the week.
I noticed in Hugh's photos that the "750,000" insert isn't the exact
same color and the screening for the shadowed portion of the pyramid
is off... why not complain about those as well?
I mean really, Beemus.. if you're that unhappy with the products, why
not simply return them for a full refund? Or better yet, stop buying
them?
Also as a parts maker and hobbyist repro'er, I have to take some
offense to someone calling CPR's work "Half Assed".. you have no idea
how much time and effort goes into recreating these parts. Heck, even
recreating a single plastic can take hours. Same with boards.. if
Tony at GLM took a short cut on a board to make it more efficiently
(yet it still does the job 100% accurately), would you call that a
"half-assed" attempt as well?
This is hardly a "crisis" ...
machine.slave
dimpled.. not all the repo pf's out there are.
Beemus
Crisis? No, I'll have it properly fixed but it will cost more. In my
opinion, this was either a failure to catch the error or an
intentional shortcut if we're to believe the disclaimer. Shortcuts =
half azzed in my book.
GLM... spent plenty of time talking with Tony. He knows his customer
base and understands quality control. Modifications that improve
performance, look... all for them. This "mod" does nothing but affect
the appearance in a negative way.
Pics of artwork are clearly displayed on the flyer... no concern
there. Hell, while we're at it, if we're going "proto" style on these,
why is there any point values on the inserts at all? ;)
Time and effort... cry me a river. They are paid when they sell the
parts, right? They aren't doing this for free. Criticism and customer
feedback is part of the game.
The alternative for me would be to simply send my non-planking mini
playfield for touchup and clear which I can get for about the same
cost. So guess I'm the bad guy for taking a leap with CPR.
Hardware
Thankfully my original playfield is in great shape, but I agree with
this post the most. If they weren't going to bevel it I would have
made the black area at the bottom even completely across. Then again
that wouldn't be like the original either, but it wouldn't stand out
like it does.
-Brian
hey load
>
> - Show quoted text -
I just got my mini-playfield today, and I'm very happy with it . . .
especially compared to what's in there now. I didn't even realize the
original HAD a bevel in it until this discussion, and I had to get
down close to the glass to see it. So I'm not real concerned if the
repo doesn't have it.
As for the reason Wms originally put the bevel there . . . I don't
know. I can't see how the bottom one would enhance the ball exit;
gravity should take care of that; maybe, however to enhance the ball
exit at the top?
I'm just glad these guys are doing what they're doing. They've got
some major money and time tied up in their operation, and I appreciate
it.
kim
kim
Taylor-VA
seem that if you are going to eliminate the bevel you could move the
black area down to eliminate the area where the bevel would be. I
think it wouldn't make the non-beveled area stand out so much.
Hugh
Well looks like I was correct about the image page:
Hugh
Beemus
> On Feb 9, 6:20 pm, Taylor-VA <taylorv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As for my "lazy" comment. I don't have a horse in the race but it does
> > seem that if you are going to eliminate the bevel you could move the
> > black area down to eliminate the area where the bevel would be. I
> > think it wouldn't make the non-beveled area stand out so much.
>
> Well looks like I was correct about the image page:
>
>
> Hugh
lol... weak. :)
John Wart, jr
> Looks like CPR knew what they were doing by leaving out the
> "bevel"....
>
> Here is the information posted directly undeneath the first photo in
> their gallery:
> 45-degree exit bevels are eliminated, as our heartier clearcoat will
> edge-protect well, not requiring the wear-prevention band-aid-fix of a
> bevel as they needed in 1993. Back then, routed TZ's would have worn
> the clean sharp edges right off the Powerfield's exits. So they opted
> to cut 45-degree angles into the bare wood, making a gentler exit for
> the ball - but creating a spot to stain and get black. Who needs a
> repro facelift with historical weak points. Reproductions shouldn't
> need Cliffy protectors :)
>
> Dosent anybody actually "read" discriptions of products prior to
> purchasing them so that they know exactly what they are buying?....Or
> are people just looking for something to complain about and too lazy
> to read?
>
As I thought earlier, this information was not on the CPR page earlier.
It is clearly not in the Google Cache for the page here:
'Before leaving for clearcoat - here is a shot of a Powerfield complete
silkscreen print.
Inserts are still dull, as bare unglossed plastic...but boy do these
already look nice, even at this unfinished stage !'
The page today
http://www.classicplayfields.com/photo79.html
'Before leaving for clearcoat - here is a shot of a Powerfield complete
silkscreen print.
Inserts are still dull, as bare unglossed plastic...but boy do these
already look nice, even at this unfinished stage !
45-degree exit bevels are eliminated, as our heartier clearcoat will
edge-protect well, not requiring the wear-prevention band-aid-fix
of a bevel as they needed in 1993. Back then, routed TZ's would have
worn the clean sharp edges right off the Powerfield's exits.
So they opted to cut 45-degree angles into the bare wood, making a
gentler exit for the ball - but creating a spot to stain and get black.
Who needs a repro facelift with historical weak points. Reproductions
shouldn't need Cliffy protectors :)'
From my web browser
Page modified: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 3:25:14 AM
So, this is *not* a case of someone neglecting to read something and
complaining - it's a case of information being added after the fact.
I don't understand why people would be given the opportunity to get them
with the 'Flip Here' omitted like on the prototype games, but weren't
asked if they cared if the bevel was there or not!
machine.slave
Beemus
>
> - Show quoted text -
sure you did... why didn't you tell us that earlier? why are you
changing your story after the fact? don't make me cache you! :)