tech: system 11 matrix problems , better ,but still not fixed. need help please
pinnut
the help of the group, i found scr6 bad, and made a resistor network
out of 8 resistors. got all my strobes back. still cant start a game.
in switch edge test, with the matrix plus disconnected, i get row 1,
2,3, 4 error. in switch level test,i jumper from j8 to j10.
everything tests good except the following:
i get no switch closure from any pin on j8 to pins 6,7,8,9 on j10.
J8 to pins 1-4 on j10 work fine, with one exception. j10 pins 6 thru
9 are row 1-4, so i kinda makes sense. now the exception. i also get
no switch closures at all from pin 9 of J8( column 8) to any pin on
j10, even the rows that work well on J8 pins 1-7.
with a logic probe, all the pins on J8 are strobing, as they should
be. all the pins on J10 are high, as they should be. when i connect a
strobe to a non working row, and check it, the pin on the row is
strobing, its not stuck high( or low)
i might add, this game is an 11b, taxi. i bought a supposedly 100%
tested and working board from a police force, with police force roms.
turns out is sys 11 board, has 1j15 and the sound section. i'm pretty
upset i bought a supposedly plug and play board for 225.00 and have
all this grief.
i am again stuck at a wall. i'm going to test some other resistor
networks, but with all the columns punsing, and all the rows high, i'm
not sure thats going to go anywhere.
thanks for your time and patience, this has been a rough one
TheKorn
5c30b4...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> here we go. had a problem with the # 7 and 8 strobes stuck low. with
> the help of the group, i found scr6 bad, and made a resistor network
> out of 8 resistors. got all my strobes back. still cant start a game.
> in switch edge test, with the matrix plus disconnected, i get row 1,
> 2,3, 4 error. in switch level test,i jumper from j8 to j10.
> everything tests good except the following:
>
> i get no switch closure from any pin on j8 to pins 6,7,8,9 on j10.
> J8 to pins 1-4 on j10 work fine, with one exception. j10 pins 6 thru
> 9 are row 1-4, so i kinda makes sense. now the exception. i also get
> no switch closures at all from pin 9 of J8( column 8) to any pin on
> j10, even the rows that work well on J8 pins 1-7.
>
> with a logic probe, all the pins on J8 are strobing, as they should
> be. all the pins on J10 are high, as they should be. when i connect a
> strobe to a non working row, and check it, the pin on the row is
> strobing, its not stuck high( or low)
U30 is most likely bad. Take your logic probe, and hook up a working
column to pin 1J10-1. Place probe on U39 pin 12. That's what a good
signal looks like. Now move from 1J10-1 to 1J10-9. Now place probe on
U30, pin 6.
If the signal looks the same as U39 but the game doesn't see it, U30 is
bad. If the signal DOESN'T look the same, then you either have a problem
with SR11, SR9, or a trace problem between those and U30.
Failing that legwork (i.e. for someone without a logic probe), flip U30
and U39, and your problem should flip-flop from the low rows to the high
rows.
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
TheKorn
5c30b4...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> i also get
> no switch closures at all from pin 9 of J8( column 8) to any pin on
> j10, even the rows that work well on J8 pins 1-7.
Oh, and it sounds like either your resistor network is messed up for column
8, or Q46 is also dead. (Secondary problem, not related to your row
problem.)
TheKorn
news:Xns9DC16275...@94.75.214.39:
> U30 is most likely bad. Take your logic probe, and hook up a working
> column to pin 1J10-1. Place probe on U39 pin 12. That's what a good
> signal looks like. Now move from 1J10-1 to 1J10-9. Now place probe
> on U30, pin 6.
>
> If the signal looks the same as U39 but the game doesn't see it, U30
> is bad. If the signal DOESN'T look the same, then you either have a
> problem with SR11, SR9, or a trace problem between those and U30.
Actually, you can go a bit farther and see if it's U30 or the PIA right
behind it, U38.
With the good signal on 1J10-1, check pin 11 of U39. That's the *output*
of U39. (this is what we're looking for.)
Now move the good column to 1J10-9. Now look at pin 4 of U30. If it looks
the same as pin 11 of U39, then it's gotta be the PIA at U38. It it
doesn't look the same, then U30 is bad.
(Sorry, got a bit lazy writing that reply.)
pinnut
> pinnut <mhooke...@verizon.net> wrote in news:709f59de-bb4e-4d9b-8f51-
> 5c30b4e18...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
>
> > i also get
> > no switch closures at all from pin 9 of J8( column 8) to any pin on
> > j10, even the rows that work well on J8 pins 1-7.
>
> Oh, and it sounds like either your resistor network is messed up for column
> 8, or Q46 is also dead. (Secondary problem, not related to your row
> problem.)
>
> --
> Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
> web or on DVD?
>
> http://www.webwidevideo.com/
good stuff Korn, i'll check it out. i did just test the resistor
networks, they check good
thanks
pinnut
the pulse from j10 to the pins on u30 are ok. u30 is acting wierd. i
pulled a u30 from another board , it does the same thing. one thing i
noticed, pin one of 30 is dead, not high or low. pin 1 of u39 is high.
on my f-14, pin 1 of u30 and u39 are both high.
u30 pin 6 , 2, 9, and 13 get pulses from the correct IJ10 pins. u30
pins 4,3,10, and 11 should change state when 6,2,9, and 13 are
pulsed.
there is no change on 4,3,10,11. is this because pin1 of u30 is dead?
the traces are good.
thanks
pinnut
i pulled u39 off the other board, same thing. i think pin one may be
dead because if got an unused opto? anyway, all 4 gates on u30 dont
work, 3 different chips ( none new) . all 4 pins get a strobe from
ij10, so i think that rules out resistor networks? i'm dyin here :)
thanks
TheKorn
news:bb1a90a0-8aed-4b4b...@q12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
> the pulse from j10 to the pins on u30 are ok.
Well that's good!
> u30 is acting wierd. i
> pulled a u30 from another board , it does the same thing. one thing i
> noticed, pin one of 30 is dead, not high or low.
You don't have anything plugged into 1J9, do you? Normally that
circuit/connector is unused (and sometimes unpopulated) on sys11
(dedicated opto circuit).
Regardless, even if pin 1 is stuck in the wrong position (I forget if low
or high is normal), that'd ONLY affect row 2, not all four rows.
> pin 1 of u39 is high.
Ah, so high is the normal state. SR14 being bad would be a common-ish
cause of a neither-high-nor-low state, or a solder bridge that's
partially transmitting voltage up in the opto area.
You most likely have a problem that'll come to bite you eventually up
there. I'd take both DC and AC readings on U30 pin 1. Let's make sure
something REALLY BAD isn't heading in pin 1 (somehow).
If it's 2-3VDC, no biggie. Something you need to correct at some point,
but not something you have to correct *now* to figure out your base
problem. If it's >5V and/or if you have pretty much any AC over a volt
going into that pin, that's a "STOP RIGHT THERE!" type of thing.
(Well, maybe... if it's oscillating like crazy between 0 and 5V, meters
will read a few volts there. That's one of the times when a logic probe
can't find the problem, you'll have to scope it out to SEE what's going
on.)
> on my f-14, pin 1 of u30 and u39 are both high.
>
> u30 pin 6 , 2, 9, and 13 get pulses from the correct IJ10 pins.
Cool, so you konw everything back from there to the connector is OK.
(always good to get a "this way, that way" type point.)
> u30
> pins 4,3,10, and 11 should change state when 6,2,9, and 13 are
> pulsed.
*Only* if the corresponding pair pin (5, 1, 8, and 12) is also held high.
Since you know pin 1 is in an indeterminant state (neither high nor low),
then pin 3 acting a bit wonky is to be expected...
> there is no change on 4,3,10,11.
...But if none of the outputs on U30 are changing, then U30 is probably
bad. Just to cover the base, is U38 socketed? If so, pop U38 out for
now, and see if the outputs of U30 change. If they do, then U38 is
dragging the output of U30 down (i.e. U38 is bad). If they don't, U30 is
bad (again).
If U30 is bad again, then I'd look really hard at your opto circuit.
Something is killing U30, and you want to find it before you go through
any more 4011s.
Also double check the power and ground connections on U30 (7 & 14); if
those aren't good then of course U30 isn't going to work correctly.
> is this because pin1 of u30 is dead?
> the traces are good.
No; pin 1 being indeterminant will at worst cause row 2 to not function,
or not function reliably. *Unless* you have something really bad going
into that pin (say, +20V), in which case it could knock out U30 entirely,
and possibly (maybe) continue upstream and take out U38. Maybe. Cross
that bridge once you get to it.
TheKorn
news:6562b026-2ed5-435b...@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:
> i pulled u39 off the other board, same thing. i think pin one may be
> dead because if got an unused opto? anyway, all 4 gates on u30 dont
> work, 3 different chips ( none new) . all 4 pins get a strobe from
> ij10, so i think that rules out resistor networks? i'm dyin here :)
Shut up, I can't organize all my thoughts that quickly. :)
TheKorn
news:Xns9DC17C6C2...@94.75.214.39:
>> u30 is acting wierd. i
>> pulled a u30 from another board , it does the same thing. one thing i
>> noticed, pin one of 30 is dead, not high or low.
>
> You don't have anything plugged into 1J9, do you? Normally that
> circuit/connector is unused (and sometimes unpopulated) on sys11
> (dedicated opto circuit).
>
> Regardless, even if pin 1 is stuck in the wrong position (I forget if
> low or high is normal), that'd ONLY affect row 2, not all four rows.
>
>> pin 1 of u39 is high.
>
> Ah, so high is the normal state. SR14 being bad would be a common-ish
> cause of a neither-high-nor-low state, or a solder bridge that's
> partially transmitting voltage up in the opto area.
>
> You most likely have a problem that'll come to bite you eventually up
> there. I'd take both DC and AC readings on U30 pin 1. Let's make
> sure something REALLY BAD isn't heading in pin 1 (somehow).
>
> If it's 2-3VDC, no biggie. Something you need to correct at some
> point, but not something you have to correct *now* to figure out your
> base problem. If it's >5V and/or if you have pretty much any AC over
> a volt going into that pin, that's a "STOP RIGHT THERE!" type of
> thing.
>
> (Well, maybe... if it's oscillating like crazy between 0 and 5V,
> meters will read a few volts there. That's one of the times when a
> logic probe can't find the problem, you'll have to scope it out to SEE
> what's going on.)
Of course, all of this assumes that 1J8 and 1J10 are disconnected during
the process.
pinnut
> TheKorn <TheK...@TheKorn.Net> wrote innews:Xns9DC17C6C2...@94.75.214.39:
1j8 and 1j10 are not connetcted, its on a bench. 1j9 is unpopulated.
here is what i see:
on u39, which works, an input pin is high( say pin 12), and connecting
the strobe put it in a strobing state. . its output pin ( pin 11) is
low, and is put into a strobing state when the input( 12) is
strobed.
on u30, not working. the input pin ( say 6) is high, and connecting
the strobe put it in a strobing state. its output pin( pin 4) is HIGH,
not low, and stays high. i though something might be holding it
high , so i bent pin 4 out of the socket and its still high. even
though i tried 3 chips, i really dont know if any of them are good.
can they be tested like a diode? also, where can i buy MC14100 chips?
dont see them GPE or big daddy.
ps- ac voltage at 14 is .6 at u30, .10 at u39.
i just checked sr14, it looks like a bussed network from the drawing .
well...... pins 2-5 check good 3.3k , 6-9 check open of 4 meg ohms.
if it is a bussed network, can i build one like it did for src6, but
with 3.3k resistors?
much thanks
Borygard
with Vince, but I did notice you're looking for MC14001 ICs for U30 and U39.
That's not correct, that's a NOR gate CMOS IC. You want the NAND gate CMOS
IC #MC14011.
The MC14011 is available at all the major electronics suppliers including
Great Plains Electronics. Search for 4011.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"pinnut" <mhoo...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:d3811122-16e4-44e7...@f33g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
TheKorn
taste it, right? :)
pinnut <mhoo...@verizon.net> wrote in
news:d3811122-16e4-44e7...@f33g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
> 1j8 and 1j10 are not connetcted, its on a bench. 1j9 is unpopulated.
OK, good. (That's what I thought, but figured I'd double check just to
make sure!)
> here is what i see:
> on u39, which works, an input pin is high( say pin 12), and connecting
> the strobe put it in a strobing state. . its output pin ( pin 11) is
> low, and is put into a strobing state when the input( 12) is
> strobed.
You're getting into how the chip internally functions. That chip is a
NAND chip, a.k.a. "NOT AND". Here's how it works...
The chip works in two stages. In stage one, the chip takes two inputs, A
& B. If A *and* B are both high, the output of stage one is high,
otherwise it's low. In stage two, the output of stage one is inverted
(high input = low output, & vice-versa). It's stage two that is
connected to the outside world.
So to properly test a 4011, it's easy. Give the chip power & ground at 7
& 14 (or maybe 14 & 7... I'd have to look it up). Then you feed in five
volts to both inputs A and B. (There are four complete NAND gates with
individual inputs and outputs per 4011.) If the output is low, then the
chip is working so far. If you take off the +5 from A or B (or both) and
the output goes high, then that NAND gate is working, go and test the
other three gates on the same chip.
That's why having pin 1 in an indeterminent state won't affect
everything; at worst case it'll only affect one out of the four NAND
gates on that chip.
> on u30, not working. the input pin ( say 6) is high, and connecting
> the strobe put it in a strobing state. its output pin( pin 4) is HIGH,
> not low, and stays high. i though something might be holding it
> high , so i bent pin 4 out of the socket and its still high. even
> though i tried 3 chips, i really dont know if any of them are good.
> can they be tested like a diode? also, where can i buy MC14100 chips?
> dont see them GPE or big daddy.
See Rob's reply. (Thanks Rob!)
> ps- ac voltage at 14 is .6 at u30, .10 at u39.
What's DCV on 7 & 14? One should be ground, one should be +5. (Just to
cover the base.)
> i just checked sr14, it looks like a bussed network from the drawing .
> well...... pins 2-5 check good 3.3k , 6-9 check open of 4 meg ohms.
> if it is a bussed network, can i build one like it did for src6, but
> with 3.3k resistors?
Yup yup! That may actually solve your problem with U30, too. Sounds
like the lines going into U30 aren't being brought high *enough* for U30
to read them, but are high enough for your logic probe to read them as
high. It *does* fit all the symptoms. (And would also mean that your
U30s are doing what they should be doing and aren't blown.)
I'd rebuild SR14; I think it may magically cure the major portion of your
switch matrix ills. (column 8 out not withstanding... :) )
Kind of random that SR14 would blow. That circuit is essentially unused
in most (all?) system 11s. Typically only see that if the board is
flexed a bunch.
pinnut
> Let me guess... you're getting so close to the answer you can almost
> taste it, right? :)
>
replaced sr 14 with a bunch or resistors , it works . the u30 chip was
working, but still wierd, but another one did the trick, game is
playing, no test report, no switch errors. now, to get the pop bumpers
to pop. they pop in test mode only.
i learned a lot of stuff, ones of the fun things about the hobby. i'm
less stupid than i was yesterday, yeah!
thanks guys!!
mike
Borygard
really in common is U49. However if U49 were bad I'd expect the other SS to
be bad too. Are you sure all three pop bumpers are dead? How about the two
slings, do they work?
In diagnostics mode or during a game, take a jumper wire and jump from
ground to each pin of J19. Do any of the bumpers work when you do this?
Congrats on getting your switch matrix issues worked out. Sounds like
you've got some real bad resistor networks. Had the board seen battery
leakage?
If this was supposed to be a completely working board, I'd sure be in
contact with who I bought it from.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"pinnut" <mhoo...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:be8a0035-8063-4722...@x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
pinnut
> Is it just the pop bumpers that aren't working? If so, the only thing
> really in common is U49. However if U49 were bad I'd expect the other SS to
> be bad too. Are you sure all three pop bumpers are dead? How about the two
> slings, do they work?
>
> In diagnostics mode or during a game, take a jumper wire and jump from
> ground to each pin of J19. Do any of the bumpers work when you do this?
>
> Congrats on getting your switch matrix issues worked out. Sounds like
> you've got some real bad resistor networks. Had the board seen battery
> leakage?
>
> If this was supposed to be a completely working board, I'd sure be in
> contact with who I bought it from.
>
> --
> Rob Anthony
i'm gonna start a new thread about buying the board, and about the
pops. please take a look
thanks
TheKorn
news:be8a0035-8063-4722...@x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
> replaced sr 14 with a bunch or resistors , it works . the u30 chip was
> working, but still wierd, but another one did the trick, game is
> playing, no test report, no switch errors. now, to get the pop bumpers
> to pop. they pop in test mode only.
Glad to hear it! It's always really satisfying to fix one of those 'way
down deep' problems, isn't it?
Is column 8 still wonky?
> i learned a lot of stuff, ones of the fun things about the hobby. i'm
> less stupid than i was yesterday, yeah!
If you've learned something new today, then today is a good day. :)
pinnut
thanks to good people like you , who have the patience to stay with
these kind of threads.