Suggestion for New DE Slogan...
Chris Yaryan
I've been reading this "More on the DE vs. WMS theme..." thread and
after watching this silly movie called "Crazy People" on cable the other night
I thought I'd steal a line out of that movie and apply it here:
DATA EAST
We're Tired Of Taking Your Crap.
Orin, Lyman, Kevin, et.al-- keep up the good work! I really enjoy Tommy,
and if I didn't live in Pinball Hell(tm) I'd be able to play more of
DE's games.
Honestly folks, I've played just as many lunched WMS games as DE games over the
years. A poorly maintained machine will play for sh*t, no matter WHO built it.
Data East HAS improved a lot the last couple of years, and WMS has turned out
more than a few clunkers in the same period of time. If I had the space, I'd
love to have a Tommy sitting next to my CFTBL. Great game.
--
Chris Yaryan gloo...@netcom.com
Graphics Network Manager The Gap, Inc.
Advertising San Francisco, CA
"MOVE YOUR CAR!!!!..." Creature From The Black Lagoon/Bally, 1993
Steve Baumgarten
Honestly folks, I've played just as many lunched WMS games as DE
games over the years. A poorly maintained machine will play for
sh*t, no matter WHO built it. Data East HAS improved a lot the
last couple of years, and WMS has turned out more than a few
clunkers in the same period of time.
The thing is, DE now has the same reputation as the New York City
subway system. That is, if a train comes in on time, and it's clean
and air conditioned and you get where you're going without delay, you
think, well that was OK. For a change.
But if it runs late, or it's dirty, or whatever, then it just goes to
reinforce your mental image of a system that's let you down so many
times in the past. And even if things work well much more often than
not (as is the case these days), it doesn't take much to get you
thinking (quite unfairly) about how little things have changed -- even
when they'ved changed a whole lot.
WMS, on the other hand, is like Disneyland. Everyone has fond
memories of all their great games -- so much so that we tend to
forgive them their dogs, just as a 1-hour wait for Pirates of the
Carribean doesn't seem as bad as it might if you looked at things
objectively. What's POPEYE when we know a new Lawlor game is on the
way? Who cares about JD when you can play ST:TNG, a game that's
arguably one of the best of all time? So forget those dogs -- they're
just aberrations...
You know, it's like WMS is riding on their reputation, while DE is
running from theirs... :-)
--
Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart,
PANIX, New York, NY | remember, we were way ahead of you."
|
Email: s...@panix.com | - David Letterman
Orin A. Day
>The thing is, DE now has the same reputation as the New York City
>subway system. That is, if a train comes in on time, and it's clean
>and air conditioned and you get where you're going without delay, you
>think, well that was OK. For a change.
>But if it runs late, or it's dirty, or whatever, then it just goes to
>reinforce your mental image of a system that's let you down so many
>times in the past. And even if things work well much more often than
>not (as is the case these days), it doesn't take much to get you
>thinking (quite unfairly) about how little things have changed -- even
>when they'ved changed a whole lot.
[...]
>You know, it's like WMS is riding on their reputation, while DE is
>running from theirs... :-)
(This is a note forwarded from Joe Kaminkow, who does not have net.access)
Dear Steve,
Normally I have the opportunity to watch the words of the net pass over
my desk. Quite often the inane banter gives me quite a chuckle. Every
now and then someone says something that cannot go without rebuttal. I
take offense to your comment that DE is running from their reputation.
I am proud of what Data East has accomplished as we approach our 8th
year in business. With the exception of Williams and Gottleib (Bally no
longer exists as it once was) I cannot recall any other company that has
started into the pinball business since the 30's that has been more sucessful
than us. Certainly if it was easy, Chicago Coin, Stern Electronics, Wico,
Allme, GamePlan, and Alvin G. would still be here producing games, not to
mention a host of European companies that tried and failed.
Starting a pinball company is a task that takes untold hours and dedication,
by not just members of the engineering staff, but also by manufacturing
and purchasing people as well. Every member of our company stands by every
product we have made since Lazer War, with a creed and oath to service the
customer and the product with a "whatever it takes" attitude - to keep our
product running and our customer satisfied. Never has a reasonable request
been turned down by us.
I am proud of our technical innovation, of our marketing expertise, and the
evolution that has taken place in the pinball business since Data East
became a competitor. Look at pinball for the 10 years before Lazer War,
and look at pinball for the 8 years after, and see the difference for yourself.
Data East Pinball provides hundreds if not thousands of families in the
Chicagoland area, if not direct employees then suppliers, the ability to
make a living for themselves. It also provides operators and distributors
(some whom lost the Williams line after 40 or 50 years when WMS consolidated
their distribution) an opportunity to sell coin operated pinball machines that
provide an excellent return for the operator.
In the past several years, Data East has become the #2 supplier of pinball
machines in the world, with quantities of games that number in the hundreds
of thousands. I actively challenge those of you on the net that think you
can do a better job and positively influence the future of pinball to apply
for jobs at Data East, Williams/Bally, or Premier. As you know, we have
hired several people from the net in the past year who continue to make an
excellent contribution to our current and future product. They, as well as
I, will continue to stand proudly with our product as we attempt to bring
pinball into the next century.
I understand that the net is a relatively small niche of the players in our
market, and does not represent the base of our playing audience. For those
of you that are really wrapped up in pinball, that spend hours a day reading
this bulletin board, I have one piece of advice for you: In the words of
William Shatner, "Get a life, man!" :^)
Joe Kaminkow
VP of Engineering & Design
Data East Pinball
--
*** "Milk, I can't believe you actually burned down that orphanage!!!" ***
Orin Day lob...@netcom.com
Stage I Day for 3...clang
********* For Duke hoop info, mail dukehoop-...@netcom.com *********
Stephen Jonke
Day) wrote:
> I understand that the net is a relatively small niche of the players in our
> market, and does not represent the base of our playing audience.
RGP-ers are certainly a small niche of the market, however, I think it is
also true that we influence a larger group of people who ARE part of your
"base". People who show greater enthusiasm for and/or greater skill in
something attract the interest of others and affect their opinions. I can
probably only claim the former, of course! :)
Steve
-------------------------
jo...@gsfc.nasa.gov
I speaketh for my selfeth
-------------------------
Keith P. Johnson
keith
--
|Keith Johnson |Yes I'm KEF|"I don't want to make any money, |
|kee...@rahul.net | | I just like to sell guns. Ha-ha" |
|kjoh...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu|Don't miss!| - on front of Don's Guns |
|Use either. Top preferred.|Youcandoit!| in Indianapolis, IN. |
Mark Phaedrus
Orin A. Day <lob...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <SBB.94Au...@panix3.panix.com> s...@panix.com (Steve Baumgarten) writes:
>>You know, it's like WMS is riding on their reputation, while DE is
>>running from theirs... :-)
>
>(This is a note forwarded from Joe Kaminkow, who does not have net.access)
>Dear Steve,
>Normally I have the opportunity to watch the words of the net pass over
>my desk. Quite often the inane banter gives me quite a chuckle. Every
>now and then someone says something that cannot go without rebuttal.
And this can't go without rebuttal either. This is too much.
Good and bad things have been said about Data East in the past. Good
and bad things have been said about companies other than Data East in the past.
Would you say that Dracula and Popeye have gotten a free ride here?
Data East has produced some wonderful products. Lazer War is still one
of my favorite machines. Guns 'n Roses gets more than its share of my play
time. But Data East has also produced products with simply breathtaking
flaws in their design and execution; I could mention Hook, the only machine I
know with release ROMs that could fail to correctly check that the player had
beaten the replay score. It continues to this very day to produce software
that will cheat novices out of a credit by going through the entire successful-
match animation before awarding the credit, and not awarding the credit if the
player starts another game in the meantime. I have talked to a great many
operators about pinball, and Data East has a consistent reputation for
superior graphics and sound, but inferior gameplay and hardware quality. This
is coming from the real world, not the net. Data East is taking positive steps
to correct these problems in their more recent releases, but reputation will
always lag behind current events, which is exactly what the original poster
was commenting on.
It frankly doesn't matter in the slightest to the player how much
experience the designers of the machine had, or whether they worked 24 hours a
day on it. The design and manufacturing team isn't what's getting shipped
out to the arcade. I understand that it can be painful to listen to people
talk about your work; I've spent the last year and a half designing,
implementing and shipping an elaborate application from start to finish, and
I'm the one who has to field the support calls for it, so I get to sit there
and listen to people criticize my design decisions, most of whom do not
understand in the slightest the many factors that went into those decisions.
But that's the way it is. I try to correct my mistakes, or at least learn from
them so I don't repeat them next time. But the last thing in the world I
can afford to do is blame the customer; it doesn't solve the problem, and it
just isn't professional.
I have never personally met anyone at either Williams or Data East, but
what I have seen of their net presences says volumes to me about both
companies. When I have said incorrect or unjustified things about Williams
machines, I have been corrected calmly, professionally, and in private, and
that calm, rational correction made me feel worse about making the mistake in
the first place than any flame ever could. Now Data East has apparently
reserved for itself the right to insult and ridicule, publicly and privately,
anyone who dares to suggest that its product might be inferior. I was
insulted for even speculating about how a feature on a prerelease machine
might work and the consequences of it, even when it was _clearly_ labelled
as speculation. This is not the behavior of professional developers; this is
the behavior of schoolyard children not getting their way.
When people call or write me to ask about pinball, or operators ask
about upcoming machines, I am always more than happy to talk about Williams
machines. I used to be more than happy to talk about Data East machines as
well--and probably gotten several of their machines into arcades with
anti-DE operators by doing so--but I don't do that anymore. Data East has
made itself annoying enough that I simply don't want to get involved in
discussing their product anymore, positively or negatively; it's just not
worth the hassle. I'm glad to see DE at least making their position on the
matter official; now I can boycott them with a clear conscience. If this is
what they think of the net and of me, I will not even indirectly support them
with my money, and I encourage others to consider this themselves.
As far as "getting a life" goes, here's three words for you: Pot.
Kettle. Black.
--
\o\ If you're interested in books/stories with transformation \o\
\o\themes, or in furry/anthropomorphic art, email me, or anonymous-\o\
\o\ftp to ftp.halcyon.com and check the /local/phaedrus directory. \o\
\o\ Web users: Now try http://www.halcyon.com/phaedrus/Menu.html \o\
Brady Bellinger
: Dear Steve,
: Normally I have the opportunity to watch the words of the net pass over
: my desk. Quite often the inane banter gives me quite a chuckle.
Inane banter?? That's pretty funny, ya know. I believe it was
just last week I read a fax from DE to us that was a thread from *this
very newsgroup*, showing how pin-heads loved Guns&Roses. I suggest you
treat the people on this group the same way you would treat any other
person(s) who endorse your product.
(lots of stuff deleted)
: I understand that the net is a relatively small niche of the players in our
: market, and does not represent the base of our playing audience. For those
: of you that are really wrapped up in pinball, that spend hours a day reading
: this bulletin board, I have one piece of advice for you: In the words of
: William Shatner, "Get a life, man!" :^)
Well, I see the smiley at the end of that sentence, and hope that
Joe K. put it there and not Orin D. If not, then should we 'get a life
and stop playing pinball'? I think there are alot of operators who
would frown upon such a suggestion.
Even though I'm not really happy with what Joe K. had to say, I would
like to thank DE for their tech support dept. Steve, Joe, and Eric have
been _very_ helpful in the past, and quite friendly (which IS
important).
Brady
Steven J. Sobol
: I actively challenge those of you on the net that think you
: can do a better job and positively influence the future of pinball to apply
: for jobs at Data East, Williams/Bally, or Premier.
Dear Joel,
I called you on the phone with an idea for a game.
You told me you don't take outside submissions.
I don't wish to move to Chicago just to work for DE.
So now Williams is looking at my game concept.
Regards,
Steve :-P
--
Steve Sobol sjs...@tiny.com | Drown the soul and
Talk/Finger: sjs...@wariat.org | through the eyes you'll
IRC: Hopeless | see the future so dark & lonely
FurryMUCK: HarryNavel | <House Of Love>
Will Leamon
>I understand that the net is a relatively small niche of the players in our
>market, and does not represent the base of our playing audience. For those
>of you that are really wrapped up in pinball, that spend hours a day reading
>this bulletin board, I have one piece of advice for you: In the words of
>William Shatner, "Get a life, man!" :^)
Since you did claim this to be a rebuttal I would like to point something
out to you. Insulting your entire audience is not really a winning manuever.
I would like to offer just two more words to you: The Simpsons
Will.
Chris Guilmartin
>s...@panix.com (Steve Baumgarten) writes:
>>You know, it's like WMS is riding on their reputation, while DE is
>>running from theirs... :-)
>
>
>I take offense to your comment that DE is running from their reputation.
Hey Orin, teach Joe about smileys!
Clearly DE is not "running" from their rep. It's good to know DE believes
in itself - an important attitude in business. And it's important that
every company does the very best they can for their customers and
strives to improve. DE does and has. It has accomplished a lot.
But Steve's original point was completely accurate: DE's image
in much of the public's mind is poor. This may be a mistake by the
public, but is an undisputable fact. Lots of businesses face this and
overcome it by measures such as public relations and quality improvement
programs. So Joe, if he's as smart as his record shows, will just take
this as yet another of the myriad challenges of running the business.
I hope so, as ignoring this particular challenge can not help but affect
the company (and the many hundreds of families that depend upon it).
Chris
Chris Guilmartin |
ch...@restrac.com |So, anyone have a spare life I can borrow?
chr...@world.std.com |
Steven J. Sobol
: flaws in their design and execution; I could mention Hook, the only machine I
: know with release ROMs that could fail to correctly check that the player had
: beaten the replay score.
It isn't the only one! I've encountered one other machine that
does this.
If you hit start on Last Action Hero before the match animation ends,
you don't get the credit.
Steve Baumgarten
First, I want to thank him for caring enough about what goes on in
this group to want to share with us his point of view. Despite a
gratuitous reference to r.g.p.'s "inane banter", we all know that this
group has fewer flames and more well-informed discussion -- on a
technical level, from people who help keep the games running for a
living; on a player's level, from people who play competitively; and
on a hobbyist's level, from everyone here who plays pinball because
they love the game and not just because SF2 is busy -- than just about
any other Usenet newsgroup. Yes, we have our share of silly posts,
but let's face it -- if the designers insist on putting cows in their
games, we're going to talk about them... :-)
But in fact most discussion here is thoughtful, serious, and
represents an ongoing sharing of feelings and opinions about the game
we love and the industry we help support. And it's obvious that
people in the industry follow the group and even participate in it
from time to time. I presume they do so because they find the
discussions interesting, or because they want to hear what at least
one fair-sized group of players think about the games they're playing.
And I presume that's why Joe "watches the words of the net pass over
[his] desk".
That said, let me try to respond to Joe's posting and maybe clarify a
little what I was trying to say.
I take offense to your comment that DE is running from their
reputation. I am proud of what Data East has accomplished as we
approach our 8th year in business. With the exception of Williams
and Gottleib (Bally no longer exists as it once was) I cannot
recall any other company that has started into the pinball business
since the 30's that has been more sucessful than us. Certainly if
it was easy, Chicago Coin, Stern Electronics, Wico, Allme,
GamePlan, and Alvin G. would still be here producing games, not to
mention a host of European companies that tried and failed.
This is all absolutely true. However, at no time did I deny DE's
achievement in the industry; what I did point out was how DE got to
where it is today, and how -- from a player's perspective -- things
have changed along the way.
What I did was point out that DE's games today are very much better
than their games of the past, and that as a whole they've steadily
improved. Here's a direct quote:
>The trick for DE will be to continue to design high quality, very
>playable games like TOMMY and G'NR and put up with some
>well-earned abuse for a while (after all, this is the same company
>that just a few years ago regularly brought us such delights as
>THE SIMPSONS, those horrific "ultimate" flippers, and game
>software with more bugs than features). I suspect that as they
>continue to design games people really like, they'll hear fewer
>and fewer gut reactions and more and more praise.
I don't think "high quality, very playable games like TOMMY and G'NR"
requires a rebuttal; and although as an executive of the company Joe
may feel a need to defend DE's initial "ultimate" flipper design or
the playability of THE SIMPSONS, no mere player is under any
obligation to do so. Certainly no more than we're obligated to make
kind and generous remarks about POPEYE, a game that is easily one of
the least playable of recent years and one made by one of DE's
competitors.
As far as I'm concerned, those ultimate flippers were horrible. And
THE SIMPSONS was all but unplayable. As was ROBOCOP. And several
other early DE games. That's just my opinion, but it's not one that
was formed in a vacuum or from any overt bias on my part; instead, it
was formed as a result of playing with those flippers on those very
games -- just as my opinion of POPEYE was formed by playing it many
times at PAPA 4 and at Broadway.
It's also the opinion of a lot of other serious players. This is
simply a fact, like saying that most serious players like TAF. They
do. But I've yet to meet anyone who thought that those "ultimate"
flippers were any good.
In another article I wrote:
>The thing is, DE now has the same reputation as the New York City
>subway system. That is, if a train comes in on time, and it's
>clean and air conditioned and you get where you're going without
>delay, you think, well that was OK. For a change.
>
>But if it runs late, or it's dirty, or whatever, then it just goes
>to reinforce your mental image of a system that's let you down so
>many times in the past. And even if things work well much more
>often than not (as is the case these days), it doesn't take much
>to get you thinking (quite unfairly) about how little things have
>changed -- even when they'ved changed a whole lot.
Given the length of time DE has been in business, its past is THE
SIMPSONS, those "ultimate" flippers, the game software for HOOK, and
the infamous Control Room diode in JP. That's a fact. In the same
time frame, WMS' past is HIGH SPEED, FUNHOUSE and TAF. Right or
wrong, that's really how I believe people outside of the industry see
these two companies, through the haze of nearly a decade of good, bad,
and indifferent releases. That's our perception -- and DE's burden at
this point.
Now DE is moving quickly up the quality and playability curve, just as
our much-maligned subway system is now actually relatively clean and
cool in the summer. But people who've lived in New York for a while
remember the bad old days, and believe me, people who've been playing
pinball for a while remember what came before LW3. So for serious
players, I think POPEYE can be waved away more readily than WWF;
neither game is all that good, but WMS' history is such that -- as a
player -- I am absolutely, 100% sure that very good things are coming
a little ways down the road. (And the proof arrived just like the
cavalry: first DM, then WCS.)
But as much as I like DE games these days, and even though I know that
there are an awful lot of talented people working there (some of whom
I know personally), doing their utmost to turn out the best games they
can, I have much less confidence that the next DE game will be as good
as TOMMY was. The company's history, and my personal experience, just
doesn't support it. Not yet, anyway.
Thus:
>You know, it's like WMS is riding on their reputation, while DE is
>running from theirs... :-)
I think in retrospect "running" was not quite the word I should have
used, but I did put a smiley after it. I meant it in good humor, not
to imply that DE should be ashamed of their past -- a thought that
really is ridiculous, as Joe points out.
I understand that the net is a relatively small niche of the
players in our market, and does not represent the base of our
playing audience.
This may or may not be true. I'm more convinced that r.g.p. really
does represent at least a large minority of the current player base.
(If we were talking about video games, I'd agree that the net
community isn't representative of the players, if only because video
players tend to be much younger than pinball players.) But in any
event, you won't find more thoughtful, interested or eager players
anywhere else. And while it's fine to say that DE doesn't care about
anything except the casual player who's willing to drop a few quarters
on a flashy license and care not at all about playability, I know for
sure that that is absolutely not DE's attitude.
This, and the fact that Joe thought a rebuttal was necessary in the
first place, leads me to believe that the opinions of the people who
participate in r.g.p. are at least somewhat important to the
manufacturers -- which also means that it's more important than ever
for them to consider what forms our opinions. And for all but the
newest players, a manufacturer's track record really does make a
difference in how we approach a new release.
For those of you that are really wrapped up in pinball, that spend
hours a day reading this bulletin board, I have one piece of advice
for you: In the words of William Shatner, "Get a life, man!" :^)
I know this was said in jest, but I bet Joe doesn't realize that he
was responding to someone who more than once risked a $35 parking
ticket in order to finish "Tommy Mode" multiball. (And once actually
got one -- talk about needing to "Move your car!") And heaven forbid
we actually do all get lives -- poor Joe would be out looking for
work, or helping design the next generation of Coke machines... :-)
Anyway, that's it (apologies for the excessive length of this reply).
Again, I really appreciate the fact that Joe decided to participate in
our discussion, and I think we all can only benefit from hearing his
point of view -- just as I suspect he and DE benefit from hearing
ours.
Michael Jason Lewis
In article <33jisn$4...@gazpacho.wariat.org>,
Steven J. Sobol <sjs...@wariat.org> wrote:
}Mark Phaedrus (phae...@coho.halcyon.com) wrote:
}
}: flaws in their design and execution; I could mention Hook, the only machine
}: I know with release ROMs that could fail to correctly check that the player
}: had beaten the replay score.
}
}It isn't the only one! I've encountered one other machine that
}does this.
}
}If you hit start on Last Action Hero before the match animation ends,
}you don't get the credit.
It's actually _all_ DE games, as far as I know. The match credit on a DE
game is not awarded until the end of the animation. I have no idea how often
I've screwed it up on JP.
Is this intentional? I mean, it increases replay % but doesn't add as much
to free play time as WMS or Gottlieb matches do. Personally, I just resent
the heck out of it. I don't believe I've ever continued to play a DE game
that I'd been playing after I've lost a game to this--and I really like Tommy.
- Mike
Martin Keates
Well, that was pretty pathetic.
I was going to just post that as a follow-up but then decided to wait and see
what else got sent. I'm glad I did, so I could see Phaedrus' reply first. In
short - I agree with Mark. Also, I agree with Keefer (stranger things have
happened). But I've got some things to add, so ...
lob...@netcom.com (Orin A. Day) writes:
>In article <SBB.94Au...@panix3.panix.com> s...@panix.com (Steve Baumgarten) writes:
>>You know, it's like WMS is riding on their reputation, while DE is
>>running from theirs... :-)
^^^ what is this, eh? What does it indicate?
I took Steve's note to mean that DE has a reputation for poorer quality
machines (in terms of gameplay) but are trying to improve it. Not worthy
flamebait, I would say. It appears that this one comment sparked off this
entire post.
[loads of imflammatory, patronising crap deleted]
>I understand that the net is a relatively small niche of the players in our
>market, and does not represent the base of our playing audience. For those
>of you that are really wrapped up in pinball, that spend hours a day reading
>this bulletin board, I have one piece of advice for you: In the words of
>William Shatner, "Get a life, man!" :^)
Were you deliberately trying to insult the entire rgp crowd with this post?
We might not be the 'base' of your playing audience but we certainly create
a whole lot of money for the industry. And you insult and patronise us.
Tch, eh?
As for your last comment, well, you use a smiley at the end of a post that
is flaming a comment which had a smiley (erm. If you see what I mean). And
your comment is far more insulting to us (whether we have lives or not).
Martin. (this has been a smiley-free post)
--
kea...@cs.man.ac.uk
http://n2t.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/students/keatesm/Martin.html
Keith P. Johnson
>In article <33jisn$4...@gazpacho.wariat.org>,
>Steven J. Sobol <sjs...@wariat.org> wrote:
>}Mark Phaedrus (phae...@coho.halcyon.com) wrote:
>}: flaws in their design and execution; I could mention Hook, the only machine
>}: I know with release ROMs that could fail to correctly check that the player
>}: had beaten the replay score.
>}you don't get the credit.
>It's actually _all_ DE games, as far as I know. The match credit on a DE
>game is not awarded until the end of the animation. I have no idea how often
>I've screwed it up on JP.
Uh, guys, I do believe Mark wasn't talking about the match thing. I
think he was referring to the fact that if Croc Clock puts you above the
replay, you don't get it. He did mention the match thing later on I
think, but that's not what he's talking about here.
keith
--
| kee...@rahul.net |Choose the |"The thing about Pac-Man is... you |
| Keith P. Johnson |/\ Logical| have to decimate before being |
| 1711 Whipple Dr. Apt. 11 |XX Altern-| decimated!" - Sean Penn in |
| Blacksburg, VA 24060 |\/ ative | "Fast Times At Ridgemont High" |
Mark Phaedrus
>Uh, guys, I do believe Mark wasn't talking about the match thing. I
>think he was referring to the fact that if Croc Clock puts you above the
>replay, you don't get it. He did mention the match thing later on I
>think, but that's not what he's talking about here.
Yep. The let's-see-if-we-can-get-the-player-to-hit-the-button-before-we-
actually-get-around-to-avoiding-the-credit match sequence is in every recent
DE machine I can think of. The you-really-didn't-want-that-replay-did-you?
bonus is a Hook innovation as far as I know...
Dusty Hull
>This is really starting to get rediculous.
I agree...
"Can't we all just get along?"
:)
Serg
--
Dusty Hull du...@sowebo.charm.net * For Amusement ONLY.
CHARM.NET * No Prizes.
Baltimore, MD's internet access * No wagering.
Federico Croci
> Yep. The let's-see-if-we-can-get-the-player-to-hit-the-button-before-we-
>actually-get-around-to-avoiding-the-credit match sequence is in every recent
>DE machine I can think of.
It was also available :-) in older Bally games like Space Invaders.
Maybe, it could be sufficient to let someone at DE note this.
--
Federico "Wiz" Croci
w...@pinball.nervous.com
Mars
>It's actually _all_ DE games, as far as I know. The match credit on a DE
>game is not awarded until the end of the animation. I have no idea how often
>I've screwed it up on JP.
>Is this intentional? I mean, it increases replay % but doesn't add as much
>to free play time as WMS or Gottlieb matches do. Personally, I just resent
>the heck out of it. I don't believe I've ever continued to play a DE game
>that I'd been playing after I've lost a game to this--and I really like Tommy.
You know, I've often wondered that. The exact reasoning behind it. It
couldn't simply be a software bug, could it? They would have fixed it by
now. So, it must just be another one of those 'unforgiving' aspects of
pinball, such as machines with no ball saver (eg. Star Wars).
--
Mario Moeller | moe...@mundil.cs.mu.oz.au
Orin A. Day
>I would like to offer just two more words to you: The Simpsons
Would that be the pingame that won Best of Show at AMOA in 1990, or are
you discussing the video game?
If you're referring to the pinball, it's strange that you think that it
was such a bad game for Data East. Despite having virtually zero export
sales, it set a record for production that stood for several years, and
it's still among our top runs of all time. The game also had very few
problems in the field. Its earnings were spectacular, it has a good resale
value (a couple were advertised for $1000 in Replay last month) and the
game still does well on location considering its age. (Note: maybe the
game just earns well because you wizards turn up your noses at it, and
aren't always leaving free credits...)
Smileys omitted for the benefit of the humor impaired.
OD
Jim Gildea
> In article <33hd6c$q...@hobbes.cc.uga.edu> wle...@parallel.park.uga.edu (Will Leamon) writes:
>
> >I would like to offer just two more words to you: The Simpsons
>
> Would that be the pingame that won Best of Show at AMOA in 1990, or are
> you discussing the video game?
Here's an interesting topic. What has won Best of Show awards for, say,
the last 5 or six years and what has the general consensus on rgp about the
games. Are we all get-a-lifers :-) or do we broadly agree ith the BoS
awards. Also, who diecides on those things...
--
Hello Mum. Look, real opinions of my own.
Look I got a life
Whoops, butterfingers.. you dropped it again
David B. Stewart
: Here's an interesting topic. What has won Best of Show awards for, say,
: the last 5 or six years and what has the general consensus on rgp about the
: games. Are we all get-a-lifers :-) or do we broadly agree ith the BoS
: awards. Also, who diecides on those things...
Furthermore, I would be interested in seeing how the sales of those best of
show games have done in comparison to games that did not win best of show. Did
TAF win the award? Or was it written off as too complex :-).
Unfortunately I don't know if we'll get any kind of sales figures, considering
that I still haven't seen a manufacturer willing to make public (at least on
RGP) the stats for no. of machines produced.
Dave
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Stewart, Founder of Steel City (formerly Three Rivers) Pinball Association
Email: <dste...@eng.umd.edu> Telephone: H: 301-604-4251 W: 301-405-4251
In search of pinball havens to play at and pinball junkies to play with
in Baltimore-MD/Washington-DC/Northern-VA area.
Steve Baumgarten
Here's an interesting topic. What has won Best of Show awards for,
say, the last 5 or six years and what has the general consensus on
rgp about the games. Are we all get-a-lifers :-) or do we broadly
agree ith the BoS awards. Also, who diecides on those things...
And what else was it up against at the time -- that would be
interesting to find out.
From the point of view of an operator (the "O" in AMOA), THE SIMPSONS
is a fantastic package. It is one of the most attractive games ever
made; it integrates the license extremely well (much more so than,
say, THE FLINTSTONES); its use of sound and music is superb. Good-
looking toys on the playfield. And, as Orin pointed out, it's done
very well in the field -- people do spend money on it.
I'll always have good feelings about THE SIMPSONS for all these
reaons. Unfortunately, as a member of the "I play pinball because I
want to, not because SFII is busy" crowd, I think the game play is
pretty poor. Not as bad as POPEYE, but poor, though, and in a sense
all the more disappointing given the rest of the package. And I think
a majority of good players would agree with this assessment.
That's the problem with awards -- you have to check on who's giving
them out and why. The AMOA's priorities aren't necessarily the same
as ours.
Joel Iott
from Joe K/Orin/DE to me? Somehow it got lost in the newsfeed...
So as to not provide content-less articles,
How about that Sega acquisition of DE? Big News!
The interesting question is how it will affect DE. They're used to having
Japanese parents, so it could be business as usual, especially since DE
pinball is doing well now.
Will Sega invest money in DE (like for a new sound system?) or do they
expect DE to be a revenue source?
And how long before we see the inevitable Sonic Pinball? The ball has to
be blue of course, and the DE expertise on crazy ramps could make an
interesting game! Sonic's friend Tails could be an orange colored
Powerball[D[D[D[D[D ceramic ball that "flies" around the playfield.
With the impending entry of Gamestar into the market, who knows what's
going to happen. Life is interesting!
In article <33grjo$o...@news1.digex.net>, Brady Bellinger wrote:
>Orin A. Day (lob...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: Dear Steve,
>
>: Normally I have the opportunity to watch the words of the net pass over
>: my desk. Quite often the inane banter gives me quite a chuckle.
>
> Inane banter?? That's pretty funny, ya know. I believe it was
>just last week I read a fax from DE to us that was a thread from *this
>very newsgroup*, showing how pin-heads loved Guns&Roses. I suggest you
>treat the people on this group the same way you would treat any other
>person(s) who endorse your product.
--
Joel Iott
Steve Baumgarten
Hey, could someone repost and/or mail the original article
from Joe K/Orin/DE to me? Somehow it got lost in the newsfeed...
I'm including the original article below, since several people seem to
have missed it. Joe makes a lot of good points about DE, where it's
been, and where it's going. It's well worth reading, even if he does
call our witty banter "inane"... :-)
--
Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart,
PANIX, New York, NY | remember, we were way ahead of you."
|
Email: s...@panix.com | - David Letterman
-------------------- article included below -- 85 lines --------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.pinball
From: lob...@netcom.com (Orin A. Day)
Subject: Message from Joe Kaminkow (was: Re: Suggestion for New DE Slogan...)
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 16:19:16 GMT
In article <SBB.94Au...@panix3.panix.com> s...@panix.com (Steve Baumgarten) writes:
>The thing is, DE now has the same reputation as the New York City
>subway system. That is, if a train comes in on time, and it's clean
>and air conditioned and you get where you're going without delay, you
>think, well that was OK. For a change.
>But if it runs late, or it's dirty, or whatever, then it just goes to
>reinforce your mental image of a system that's let you down so many
>times in the past. And even if things work well much more often than
>not (as is the case these days), it doesn't take much to get you
>thinking (quite unfairly) about how little things have changed -- even
>when they'ved changed a whole lot.
[...]
>You know, it's like WMS is riding on their reputation, while DE is
>running from theirs... :-)
(This is a note forwarded from Joe Kaminkow, who does not have net.access)
Dear Steve,
Normally I have the opportunity to watch the words of the net pass over
I understand that the net is a relatively small niche of the players in our
market, and does not represent the base of our playing audience. For those
of you that are really wrapped up in pinball, that spend hours a day reading
this bulletin board, I have one piece of advice for you: In the words of
William Shatner, "Get a life, man!" :^)
Joe Kaminkow
Steven J. Sobol
: >I would like to offer just two more words to you: The Simpsons
: Would that be the pingame that won Best of Show at AMOA in 1990, or are
: you discussing the video game?
: If you're referring to the pinball, it's strange that you think that it
: was such a bad game for Data East. Despite having virtually zero export
: sales, it set a record for production that stood for several years, and
: it's still among our top runs of all time. The game also had very few
: problems in the field. Its earnings were spectacular, it has a good resale
: value (a couple were advertised for $1000 in Replay last month) and the
: game still does well on location considering its age. (Note: maybe the
: game just earns well because you wizards turn up your noses at it, and
: aren't always leaving free credits...)
I just think the game plays badly. It probably is built well and
holds together like a Sherman tank, but the game play sucks.
--
Steve Sobol sjs...@tiny.com | Drown the soul and
Talk/Finger: sjs...@junior.wariat.org | through the eyes you'll
Keith P. Johnson
>I just think the game plays badly. It probably is built well and
>holds together like a Sherman tank, but the game play sucks.
No, it's not built well, actually. The Flippers O' Death common on DE
games back then (another one that comes to mind is BTTF) enabled you to
pound the begeezus out of those drop targest. Hence, the drop targest
broke (a lot). Hence, you couldn't get multiball. Hence, the game had
even less point to it than it did before...
On the plus side, you could get some really impressive airballs by
slamming those drop targets...
keith
--
|Keith Johnson |Choose the |"Any men don't want to get killed |
|kee...@rahul.net |/\ Logical| better move on out the back there." |
|kjoh...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu|XX Altern-| |
|Use either. Top preferred.|\/ ative | - Clint Eastwood |
Bill Ung
|From the point of view of an operator (the "O" in AMOA), THE SIMPSONS
|is a fantastic package. It is one of the most attractive games ever
|made; it integrates the license extremely well (much more so than,
|say, THE FLINTSTONES); its use of sound and music is superb. Good-
|looking toys on the playfield. And, as Orin pointed out, it's done
|very well in the field -- people do spend money on it.
|
|I'll always have good feelings about THE SIMPSONS for all these
|reaons. Unfortunately, as a member of the "I play pinball because I
|want to, not because SFII is busy" crowd, I think the game play is
|pretty poor. Not as bad as POPEYE, but poor, though, and in a sense
|all the more disappointing given the rest of the package.
Fantasy Mode On:
We've recently been talking about "Turbo" ROMs for recent pinball
games. And why not? The Simpsons came out when DE was real
young and, for lack of a better phrase, didn't know any better.
A cool license made for great attraction appeal, but what's to
keep folks coming back? What ABOUT the Wizard crowd which has
always added a certain amount of mystic to the world of pinball?
Does anyone, given the existing set of hardware on a Simpsons
game, think that a decent ruleset could be built? Could we,
conceivably, drag a game like The Simpsons from the poor-ruleset
pile into a vibrant attractive game of today with a simple ROM
upgrade?
Demolition Man, when it first came out, had similar problems.
Many folks on r.g.p. complained about the rules and things
they really hoped Williams would change before production.
These things happened and the general consensus is that DM
is a better game for it.
Now it's true that DE probably won't pick up any great profit
points for such an act, but man, it would certainly be cool!
Fantasy Mode Off.
So, anyone want to take a crack at designing a new ruleset?
--
Bill Ung
u...@filenet.com
HIGH SPEED: "Dispatch this is 504, suspect got away."
EARTHSHAKER: "Ooohhh, bitchin!!"
WHITEWATER: "Dang, lost another one!"
Michael Brian Field
>
>We've recently been talking about "Turbo" ROMs for recent pinball
>games. And why not? The Simpsons came out when DE was real
>young and, for lack of a better phrase, didn't know any better.
>
>game, think that a decent ruleset could be built? Could we,
>conceivably, drag a game like The Simpsons from the poor-ruleset
>pile into a vibrant attractive game of today with a simple ROM
>upgrade?
Well you might need to redo some plastic lights, but what you could do is
make one of the "Lock" holes (there were three) a mode start hole. The
modes could be like any of the recent DE modes, including ones based on the
drops, one on the pops, one the ramp, perhaps some quick multiball modes
like GnRs Axel 3 Ball or Dizzy Ball.
But didn't the Simpsons have serious hardware reliablility problems? I can't
find one anymore that works as intended and I've seen a lot of 'em.
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| Michael Field, IFPA League Player, Madison Pin-Kings. |
|----------------------------------------------------------|
| Join the Madison Area New Pin Locator Mailing List! |
| Email me for details... |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
Jonathan Deitch
>Does anyone, given the existing set of hardware on a Simpsons
>game, think that a decent ruleset could be built? Could we,
>conceivably, drag a game like The Simpsons from the poor-ruleset
>pile into a vibrant attractive game of today with a simple ROM
>upgrade?
Considering that DE's alphanumeric games were essentially Williams
System 11 games (same general design, memory map, and processor) it should
not be too hard ...
>Demolition Man, when it first came out, had similar problems.
>Many folks on r.g.p. complained about the rules and things
>they really hoped Williams would change before production.
>These things happened and the general consensus is that DM
>is a better game for it.
Ummm ... certain operators called Williams and *bitterly* complained
about certain bugs, not the least of which was that P-2 ROMs sometimes
wouldn't let you start your game after you put your money in ...
They *had* to fix a bunch of things and quickly or lose sales on the game.
- Jonathan
Will Leamon
>Would that be the pingame that won Best of Show at AMOA in 1990, or are
>you discussing the video game?
The Pinball game.
>If you're referring to the pinball, it's strange that you think that it
>was such a bad game for Data East. Despite having virtually zero export
>sales, it set a record for production that stood for several years, and
>it's still among our top runs of all time. The game also had very few
>problems in the field. Its earnings were spectacular, it has a good resale
>value (a couple were advertised for $1000 in Replay last month) and the
>game still does well on location considering its age. (Note: maybe the
>game just earns well because you wizards turn up your noses at it, and
>aren't always leaving free credits...)
Look I don't give a f*ck about sales, awards and whatnot. If the game is
boring then it sucks. On the numbers bit, I don't see how you can say it has
little problems in the field. Perhaps that is because people have given up
on reporting them to DE? The Simpson's I have played breaks down every two
minutes! I'm sorry but compared to the EBD sitting next to it, which has
had the living crap beaten out of it and keeps ticking, and the TAF sitting
on the other side it's not much of a choice. In fact the locals at this
place call it "The Simpsons" the table because the only thing it's good for
is putting your drinks and smokes on it.
Now I did give this game a try. What are you supposed to hit? I find it the
most choatic game in the world. It's nothing but a bunch of Pinball design
cliches lumped together on one playfield with nothing to bind it all
together. Basically it's a funny T.V. show that D.E. couldn't bring to pin-
ball. It's a shame to, that game could have been REALLY funny. It's the
Simpsons for crying out loud, how you take a hilarious tv show and turn it
into a boring machine is beyond me. Thank goodness we have the Geniuses at
DE to figure it out.
I know that DE is taking allot of heat on r.g.p. right now but can't you
realize that some of it may be warranted?
__________________________________________________________________________
| The opionons expressed here | Unix vs. Aol-It's the difference between|
| are mine because no one else | eating and being fed. |
| wants them. | |
|______________________________| Wle...@parallel.park.uga.edu___________|
P.s. Smiley's witheld because nothing about this game is funny.
P.P.S. Looking forward to the flames but can we keep'em to E-mail unless
they are really really good and nasty?
Federico Croci
>Despite having virtually zero export sales,
Just in case someone may need it, here in Italy we actually have about 20 "The
Simpsons" pinball machines. They are stocked, waiting for a customer.
TJ Beyer
: Now I did give this game a try. What are you supposed to hit? I find it the
: most choatic game in the world. It's nothing but a bunch of Pinball design
: cliches lumped together on one playfield with nothing to bind it all
: together. Basically it's a funny T.V. show that D.E. couldn't bring to pin-
: ball. It's a shame to, that game could have been REALLY funny. It's the
: Simpsons for crying out loud, how you take a hilarious tv show and turn it
: into a boring machine is beyond me. Thank goodness we have the Geniuses at
: DE to figure it out.
You asked for it .. =P =)
Ramp lights M-I-L-L-I-O-N-S lights on the back panel of the playfield,
when you get them all lit, it lights the ramp for 1,000,000 points.
Center drop targets light locks, for multiball.
Shooting the right ramp twice in a row, while the mystery is lit, will
give you a somewhat random award, off of the speaker panel.
Lock 1 ball for multiball, Lock 2 balls during 2-ball multiball, for 3
ball multi. The jackpot is on the ramp.
The drop targets on the left light bonus hold on the left saucer, extra
ball lit somewhere, and special in the shot behind the ramp. One award
per completion, in that order.
The rollover lanes at the top advance your bonus.
That's about it. I think the jet bumpers advance your bonus, or
something like that. The last one I played was Rick Stetta's, Which,
BTW, worked very nicely. =)
I'm sure that you were probably joking, but if you decide to play it,
this may come in handy <shrug>. There also might be a better rules
version in the pinball archive, I don't know.
: P.P.S. Looking forward to the flames but can we keep'em to E-mail unless
: they are really really good and nasty?
Same goes with me. =)
-TJ
--
|||||
( o o )
+---------------------------ooO--(_)--Ooo----------------------------+
|rug...@bga.com "Starwarp" - Time Machine|HAVE YOU PLAYED| For more |
|"Feel the power of the wind" - Whirlwind |A WILLIAMS [tm]|info, call|
|"Good luck, You'll need it." - Smash TV |PINBALL TODAY??| 555-1212 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Cameron Silver
>>>I would like to offer just two more words to you: The Simpsons
>Look I don't give a f*ck about sales, awards and whatnot. If the game is
>boring then it sucks. On the numbers bit, I don't see how you can say it has
>Now I did give this game a try. What are you supposed to hit? I find it the
>most choatic game in the world. It's nothing but a bunch of Pinball design
>cliches lumped together on one playfield with nothing to bind it all
>together. Basically it's a funny T.V. show that D.E. couldn't bring to pin-
>ball. It's a shame to, that game could have been REALLY funny. It's the
>Simpsons for crying out loud, how you take a hilarious tv show and turn it
>into a boring machine is beyond me. Thank goodness we have the Geniuses at
>DE to figure it out.
I know this will shock you .. The Simpsons pinnies are becoming collectors
items here! And I'v finally seen one .. didn't play it tho, as there was a
high speed sitting next to it..
--
Cameron Silver - Mail me at: s92...@yallara.cs.rmit.oz.au ** Danger
or: cam...@zikzak.apana.org.au ** Danger
*************************************************************************
I'd rather be skiing.
The Voigtster
thought the game was great and the quotes were excellent.
choclate, double choclate, triple choclate!
--
The Voigtster | I've heard of this great new computer game where
you actually turn off the computer and leave the house.
s93...@yallara.cs.rmit.oz.au
voig...@suburbia.apana.org.au
Orin A. Day
>Look I don't give a f*ck about sales...
It seems that Joe was more correct in his message than I personally
thought at first. It's good to know where you're coming from.
>cliches lumped together on one playfield with nothing to bind it all
>together. Basically it's a funny T.V. show that D.E. couldn't bring to pin-
>ball. It's a shame to, that game could have been REALLY funny.
That's strange, Matt G. thought it was funny. Perhaps there's no accounting
for taste, though. I don't seem to recall anybody at DE saying that The
Simpsons was 8 Ball Deluxe. I do seem to recall that I posted several
facts about the game. The additional fact that the goodwill created by
that game led to many Hollywood properties actively seeking license agreements
with DE is beside your point.
>I know that DE is taking allot of heat on r.g.p. right now but can't you
>realize that some of it may be warranted?
I'll just re-read the first quote of your sig, calculate the number
of four year old pinball games you are likely to purchase from us, and
add to it the earnings that a four year old game is likely to produce next
to the two most popular and best selling pingames of all time (plus maybe
a grain of salt and a smiley or three) and leave things at that.
>| The opionons expressed here | Unix vs. Aol-It's the difference between|
>| are mine because no one else | eating and being fed. |
>| wants them. | |
>|______________________________| Wle...@parallel.park.uga.edu___________|
As to the second half of your sig, how about "Selling games-it's the
difference between being [WMS,Premier,DE] and [AlvinG,Stern,ChicagoCoin]"
Maybe that will tell you why some people do give a f*ck about sales.
David Hawes; RA;E200
There are lots of Simpsons pinball machines here in the UK. Virtual every
seaside resort I have been to has got at least one somewhere - inspite of the
fact that the series was only shown on satelite & cable tv.
Frank Kuan
particular order:
1) Duff captured ball: cool. Get the satisfaction of the ball
getting kicked around by the pop bumper without slowing down the game.
Is Duff the drummer? A drum solo with pop bumpers would have been
even better.
2) The mode start saucer thing in the upper left part of the playfield -
At first I thought it was too hard to hit, because the thing kept
bouncing hard shots out, but then I decided it's really not that
much harder than the final draw shot in World Cup.
3) Axl 3 ball: Is there a way to make the mystery scoop worth more
exponentially with each successful shot? It's not very exciting
getting 16M for each shot. Is there a climax for this mode? Does
Axl scream at you or do a solo or anything if you complete X #
of hits? Unless there's something I'm missing, this mode just
doesn't get me excited.
4) G and R ramps: If you repeatedly hit the G & R ramps in alternating
fashion, the letters Guns and Roses start spelling out. The problem
I have with this is that it's not very fun to repeatedly hit this shot.
I mean come on! This is a musical game license. As you get closer
to spelling out Guns and Roses, something should be happening, like
getting little riffs or tunes as you complete more letters. for example,
maybe when you complete G and U, someone starts a drum solo, and when
do N and S, the bass player joins in, and when you get close to
completion, you have the whole band jamming. The point is, there is
no build up of tension or excitement as you are completing the letters.
It's just the same boring sound effect for the ramp shot and a
token animation. Whoever the game designers are on this team, you
should revisit ST:TNG. Notice the warp combos. There's a build up
of tension as you get closer to warp 9, and when you hit 9, the
ship starts making some rumbling noises. There's strong
motivation to keep the warp combos going. With the G&R ramps,
I just don't get any incentive to keep shooting. Something cool
might happen when you make it all the way, but the journey needs
to be exciting as well.
5) Multiball: I like the flow of multiball. Hit the two ramps to collect
jackpots, then hit the coma for a super jackpot, and multiball starts
over again. What I don't like about this mode is that you don't get
rewarded with cool sound effects when you hit the jackpot. You get
Axl in an adolescent nasal voice croaking out the phrase "jackpot."
Hello Data East! Is anyone home? This is a music license! Why don't
you play a cool riff or do a Slash solo or something when you get
a jackpot! I did all that work (6 coma shots to light multiball), and
all I get is Axl whining "jackpot"! I can't BELIEVE that's all I get
for jackpot. What a phenomenally tragic waste of a jackpot shot.
This is worse than hearing Sylvester stallone say
"jackpot" with no feeling in Demolition Man. I suspect
both Williams and Data East get into this mentality where they go,
"Dammit, we paid good money for a license. We better get the actors
to say 'jackpot' or we're not getting our money's worth."
Also, for the super jackpot
shot, whatever happens when you hit it is very unspectacular, because
I've hit it over 10 times and I can't even remember what the sound
effect is. A successful jackpot shot should make you feel good.
Instead, you get annoyed by hearing Axl screech like a banshee.
conclusion: I think I'll have fun playing for a few weeks, but that's
about it. I don't even like Guns and Roses (the group), but I do
appreciate good sound, and this game doesn't have it. I don't want
to come down too hard on the audio group, because I'm sensitive
to the fact that they have a deadline, they have rom restrictions,
and possibly unreasonable management. However, the bottom line is
the game just doesn't fully take advantage of the musical license.
This is quite a tragedy, because I like the playfield layout, and
I'm mildly curious to find out more about the subtleties in the game,
but I have no incentive to do so because sound fx are lame and the
music samples are miserly.
I hate to say it, but alot of the sounds they recycle from other
games just sound cheap and cheesy. It's time to get new audio
hardware. If this game had been done on Williams DCS system
and used more sound and musical samples, I guarantee I'd play
the game twice as long as I'd play the DE version even if the
gameplay sucked, simply on the strength of good sound effects.
To give an example, I keep coming back to Dracula. Now, I can't
play more than 4 games without becoming totally frustrated,
but I keep coming back to the game because the sound effects,
music, and animations are just excellent. When you light the
castle lock, it's a great feeling. In fact, just hitting the
left ramp feels really nice, and the sinister reverberating
sound effect just makes you want to keep hitting that ramp
again and again. Similarly, the super jackpot in CFTBL makes
you feel really good. The jackpots and superjackpots in ST;TNG
make you feel really good about yourself. The world cup
jackpots get you really pumped and wanting to ram the ball down
the goalie's throat again and again. Although the flow and design
of the ball movement in the G&R multiball feel pretty nice,
it's a waste because there are no cool sound effects to make
you feel good for doing all that work.
To the people at DE, I hope you guys update your audio hardware
real soon and exercise more scrupulous recycling of sound effects.
It's ok to recycle a sound effect if it has real limited use and it's
a real cool sound effect. It's a BAD idea to recycle a sound that
sounds bad to begin with and gets used frequently.
- fk
Stephen Jonke
(Frank Kuan) wrote:
>I suspect
>both Williams and Data East get into this mentality where they go,
>"Dammit, we paid good money for a license. We better get the actors
>to say 'jackpot' or we're not getting our money's worth."
You might be right about this (note, however, that I've never seen nor
played G&R), but an actor saying "jackpot" isn't neccessarily bad. IMHO,
you don't get a better jackpot sound effect then either the triple jackpot
or super jackpot in Indiana Jones! The saying of "triple jackpot" in IJ
is so great, I can't even write it in a fashion that depicts the sound of
it! :) And while "super jackpot" isn't quite as fancy, it's said with
such gusto as to make up for it, especially if you get a bunch in quick
succession! Agreed, however, that Sylvester's "jackpot" in DM is boring
(although the "Close enough" phrase is simple but humorous).
Steve
-------------------
jo...@gsfc.nasa.gov
Go! Go! Go!
-------------------
Scott Piehler
>After dumping 10$ into Guns and Roses, here are my impressions, in no
>particular order:
>1) Duff captured ball: cool. Get the satisfaction of the ball
> getting kicked around by the pop bumper without slowing down the game.
> Is Duff the drummer? A drum solo with pop bumpers would have been
> even better.
Actually, Duff McKagan is the bassist. The current lineup, FYI (This may help
understand the machine, it may not)
Lead vocals-Axl Rose
Lead Guitar-Slash
Rhythm Guitar-Gilby Clarke
Bass-Duff McKagan
Drums-Matt Sorum
Keyboards-Dizzy Reed
Now, if only I could actually see this machine.
Hey, Jonathan........
Scott
Scott Piehler <Ros...@mindspring.com>
Formerly <Ros...@aol.com>
Atlanta, GA, USA
"Send to Starfleet. We have engaged the Borg"-STTNG
Allan W. Speicher
: After dumping 10$ into Guns and Roses, here are my impressions, in no
: particular order:
:
: This is quite a tragedy, because I like the playfield layout, and
: I'm mildly curious to find out more about the subtleties in the game,
I admit I like the playfied layout as well. Quite a non-DE layout. For
awhile, it seemed as if they were simply recycling old playfields for new
games.
: I hate to say it, but alot of the sounds they recycle from other
: games just sound cheap and cheesy. It's time to get new audio
: hardware. If this game had been done on Williams DCS system
: and used more sound and musical samples, I guarantee I'd play
: the game twice as long as I'd play the DE version even if the
: gameplay sucked, simply on the strength of good sound effects.
True! I couldn't help think I was playing Batman or Back to the Future.
They really do need to come up with some new sounds!
: To the people at DE, I hope you guys update your audio hardware
: real soon and exercise more scrupulous recycling of sound effects.
: It's ok to recycle a sound effect if it has real limited use and it's
: a real cool sound effect. It's a BAD idea to recycle a sound that
: sounds bad to begin with and gets used frequently.
:
Perhaps now that Sega has a hand in things, maybe we'll hear a whole new
order of sounds. You know the type. Those annoying computer/Nintendo
type sounds. Hmm, maybe we should be happy with what we have. Then
again, change is good I guess. Will have to wait and see.
---=-----
--=-=--==
-===-- ..Feel the Power of the Wind!
-=- ,., WHIRLWIND
-= .. ' awsp...@mtu.edu
___________+____________________________________
Cameron Silver
>Frank Kuan (ku...@dms.agames.com) wrote:
>: I hate to say it, but alot of the sounds they recycle from other
>: games just sound cheap and cheesy. It's time to get new audio
> True! I couldn't help think I was playing Batman or Back to the Future.
> They really do need to come up with some new sounds!
It's not that easy. Go on ... invent a sound. Right now ;-)
>: To the people at DE, I hope you guys update your audio hardware
>: real soon and exercise more scrupulous recycling of sound effects.
Ok .. invent a new sound system. Just go now and design the DCS system!
Martin Keates
>In article <1994Sep6.1...@dms.agames.com>, ku...@dms.agames.com
>(Frank Kuan) wrote:
>>I suspect
>>both Williams and Data East get into this mentality where they go,
>>"Dammit, we paid good money for a license. We better get the actors
>>to say 'jackpot' or we're not getting our money's worth."
>You might be right about this (note, however, that I've never seen nor
>played G&R), but an actor saying "jackpot" isn't neccessarily bad. IMHO,
No way! What about trrrrriiiple jackpot on TAF?
>succession! Agreed, however, that Sylvester's "jackpot" in DM is boring
>(although the "Close enough" phrase is simple but humorous).
If they have anyone saying 'jackpot' it has to be one of the cast, surely?
Otherwise it wouldn't fit in with the theme (and you've got to have the
machine say 'jackpot' somewhere!!).
Normally it works quite well (T2,TAF,Flintstones(I like it),ST:TNG).
Nothing beats a Rudy scream on Fun House, though. :)
Martin.
--
kea...@cs.man.ac.uk
http://n2t.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/students/keatesm/Martin.html
Federico Croci
>There are lots of Simpsons pinball machines here in the UK. Virtual every
>seaside resort I have been to has got at least one somewhere - inspite of the
>fact that the series was only shown on satelite & cable tv.
Curious - here in Italy the series were shown just after the pinball
appeared.
Federico Croci
>IMHO,
>you don't get a better jackpot sound effect then either the triple jackpot
>or super jackpot in Indiana Jones! The saying of "triple jackpot" in IJ
>is so great, I can't even write it in a fashion that depicts the sound of
>it! :) And while "super jackpot" isn't quite as fancy, it's said with
>such gusto as to make up for it, especially if you get a bunch in quick
>succession!
But what can be said of the "Ten Million!", "Twenty Million!", etc. of
the DRACULA pinball? It is incredible!