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Gottlieb Spider-Man, Weak Knocker
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Troy
Apr 12, 2019, 5:51:51 PM4/12/19
to
Thanks in advance for the help. I have a system 80 spider-man that is almost working a 100%. When I got the game, the knocker coil and transistor Q53 were bad. The burnt knocker coil was A-5194 (per the schematic was wrong), so I replaced it with coil A-5195. When I do the solenoid test, the knocker barely moves. I'm only measuring about 3 volts at the coil. Any ideas? I'm thinking it might be the 7416 inverter, but I'm not sure how to test it.
John Robertson
Apr 12, 2019, 6:33:53 PM4/12/19
to
On 2019/04/12 2:51 p.m., Troy wrote:
> Thanks in advance for the help. I have a system 80 spider-man that is almost working a 100%. When I got the game, the knocker coil and transistor Q53 were bad. The burnt knocker coil was A-5194 (per the schematic was wrong), so I replaced it with coil A-5195. When I do the solenoid test, the knocker barely moves. I'm only measuring about 3 volts at the coil. Any ideas? I'm thinking it might be the 7416 inverter, but I'm not sure how to test it.
>
The coil should show around 28VDC on both lugs. If not then is one lug a
> Thanks in advance for the help. I have a system 80 spider-man that is almost working a 100%. When I got the game, the knocker coil and transistor Q53 were bad. The burnt knocker coil was A-5194 (per the schematic was wrong), so I replaced it with coil A-5195. When I do the solenoid test, the knocker barely moves. I'm only measuring about 3 volts at the coil. Any ideas? I'm thinking it might be the 7416 inverter, but I'm not sure how to test it.
>
lower voltage than the other? If it is unplug the game and do my Ground
Upgrades for System 80 games:
https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System80
If both lugs show the same voltage but i is much lower than the rest of
the coils then you have a bad connection to the solenoid power that you
have to track down...
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Troy
Apr 13, 2019, 4:38:29 PM4/13/19
to
Thanks for your response. I retested the voltage at the lugs on the coil, I'm getting 3.7VDC on lug that connected to banded side of the diode. When I flip the leads I get 0VDC. However, I disconnected the coil (plastic connectors were added at some) and I tested the voltage at the wires and I'm getting 16VDC. Could it be a problem with the new coil, or is 16VDC still too low?
Thanks,
Troy
John Robertson
Apr 13, 2019, 5:59:11 PM4/13/19
to
On 2019/04/13 1:38 p.m., Troy wrote:
> On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:33:53 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 2019/04/12 2:51 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>> Thanks in advance for the help. I have a system 80 spider-man that is almost working a 100%. When I got the game, the knocker coil and transistor Q53 were bad. The burnt knocker coil was A-5194 (per the schematic was wrong), so I replaced it with coil A-5195. When I do the solenoid test, the knocker barely moves. I'm only measuring about 3 volts at the coil. Any ideas? I'm thinking it might be the 7416 inverter, but I'm not sure how to test it.
>>>
>>
>> The coil should show around 28VDC on both lugs. If not then is one lug a
>> lower voltage than the other? If it is unplug the game and do my Ground
>> Upgrades for System 80 games:
>>
>> https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System80
>>
>> If both lugs show the same voltage but i is much lower than the rest of
>> the coils then you have a bad connection to the solenoid power that you
>> have to track down...
>>
>> John :-#)#
>>
>> --
>
> On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:33:53 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 2019/04/12 2:51 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>> Thanks in advance for the help. I have a system 80 spider-man that is almost working a 100%. When I got the game, the knocker coil and transistor Q53 were bad. The burnt knocker coil was A-5194 (per the schematic was wrong), so I replaced it with coil A-5195. When I do the solenoid test, the knocker barely moves. I'm only measuring about 3 volts at the coil. Any ideas? I'm thinking it might be the 7416 inverter, but I'm not sure how to test it.
>>>
>>
>> The coil should show around 28VDC on both lugs. If not then is one lug a
>> lower voltage than the other? If it is unplug the game and do my Ground
>> Upgrades for System 80 games:
>>
>> https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System80
>>
>> If both lugs show the same voltage but i is much lower than the rest of
>> the coils then you have a bad connection to the solenoid power that you
>> have to track down...
>>
>> John :-#)#
>>
>> --
>
> John,
>
> Thanks for your response. I retested the voltage at the lugs on the coil, I'm getting 3.7VDC on lug that connected to banded side of the diode. When I flip the leads I get 0VDC. However, I disconnected the coil (plastic connectors were added at some) and I tested the voltage at the wires and I'm getting 16VDC. Could it be a problem with the new coil, or is 16VDC still too low?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Troy
>
Hi Troy,
>
> Thanks for your response. I retested the voltage at the lugs on the coil, I'm getting 3.7VDC on lug that connected to banded side of the diode. When I flip the leads I get 0VDC. However, I disconnected the coil (plastic connectors were added at some) and I tested the voltage at the wires and I'm getting 16VDC. Could it be a problem with the new coil, or is 16VDC still too low?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Troy
>
You still don't have the power you need at the coil - should be at least
24VDC if the TILT relay and other coils have power.
I'm afraid you need to pull out the schematics and follow the B+ line
(wire is colour coded - and is the wire connected to the side of the
coil with the banded end of the diode, when wired correctly) from the
knocker back to other coils nearby. Chances are a nearby coil (or a
plug) which feeds power to the knocker has the B+ wire broken somewhere
but most likely at a connection point.
Gott Lieb?
Apr 14, 2019, 7:54:20 AM4/14/19
to
Jim
John Robertson
Apr 14, 2019, 4:13:16 PM4/14/19
to
On 2019/04/14 4:54 a.m., Gott Lieb? wrote:
> On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 4:38:29 PM UTC-4, Troy wrote:
>> On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:33:53 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>>> On 2019/04/12 2:51 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>>> Thanks in advance for the help. I have a system 80 spider-man that is almost working a 100%. When I got the game, the knocker coil and transistor Q53 were bad. The burnt knocker coil was A-5194 (per the schematic was wrong), so I replaced it with coil A-5195. When I do the solenoid test, the knocker barely moves. I'm only measuring about 3 volts at the coil. Any ideas? I'm thinking it might be the 7416 inverter, but I'm not sure how to test it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The coil should show around 28VDC on both lugs. If not then is one lug a
>>> lower voltage than the other? If it is unplug the game and do my Ground
>>> Upgrades for System 80 games:
>>>
>>> https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System80
>>>
>>> If both lugs show the same voltage but i is much lower than the rest of
>>> the coils then you have a bad connection to the solenoid power that you
>>> have to track down...
>>>
>>> John :-#)#
>>>
>>
> On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 4:38:29 PM UTC-4, Troy wrote:
>> On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:33:53 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>>> On 2019/04/12 2:51 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>>> Thanks in advance for the help. I have a system 80 spider-man that is almost working a 100%. When I got the game, the knocker coil and transistor Q53 were bad. The burnt knocker coil was A-5194 (per the schematic was wrong), so I replaced it with coil A-5195. When I do the solenoid test, the knocker barely moves. I'm only measuring about 3 volts at the coil. Any ideas? I'm thinking it might be the 7416 inverter, but I'm not sure how to test it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The coil should show around 28VDC on both lugs. If not then is one lug a
>>> lower voltage than the other? If it is unplug the game and do my Ground
>>> Upgrades for System 80 games:
>>>
>>> https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System80
>>>
>>> If both lugs show the same voltage but i is much lower than the rest of
>>> the coils then you have a bad connection to the solenoid power that you
>>> have to track down...
>>>
>>> John :-#)#
>>>
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Thanks for your response. I retested the voltage at the lugs on the coil, I'm getting 3.7VDC on lug that connected to banded side of the diode. When I flip the leads I get 0VDC. However, I disconnected the coil (plastic connectors were added at some) and I tested the voltage at the wires and I'm getting 16VDC. Could it be a problem with the new coil, or is 16VDC still too low?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Troy
>
> The knocker power comes directly from the solenoid bridge rectifier. Make certain that the wires are soldered up well there.
>
> Jim
>
Good point Jim, I hadn't bothered to look at the schematics and so gave
>>
>> Thanks for your response. I retested the voltage at the lugs on the coil, I'm getting 3.7VDC on lug that connected to banded side of the diode. When I flip the leads I get 0VDC. However, I disconnected the coil (plastic connectors were added at some) and I tested the voltage at the wires and I'm getting 16VDC. Could it be a problem with the new coil, or is 16VDC still too low?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Troy
>
> The knocker power comes directly from the solenoid bridge rectifier. Make certain that the wires are soldered up well there.
>
> Jim
>
more generic information - thanks! One forgets things...
Further to what Jim said, I fail to see how you get around 16VDC at the
coil unless you are misreading the meter settings (sure you are reading
DC?) or perhaps you do not have the black/common lead of the meter
connected to the ground plate or ground strap in the game and so are not
reading across the solenoid B+. Playfield solenoids should show around
24VDC or more relative to ground/common - the same as the knocker - they
all are powered by the same bridge rectifier.
Do the other coils in the game work as expected? Do they show 24VDC or
more relative to ground?
If all are weak (and measuring below 24VDC) then perhaps the solenoid
bridge rectifier has an open internal diode and thus needs to be replaced.
It would not hurt to add a 2A slow-blow fuse to the knocker coil by the
way, when this is all finished.
Troy
Apr 15, 2019, 9:28:31 PM4/15/19
to
Okay, I was measuring the circuit wrong, I am getting 24.46VDC on both lugs of the coil. Before I wasn't using ground as a reference when measuring the voltage, before I was just measuring across the two lugs on the coil to get 16VDC. However, today when I measured between the two lugs when doing the self test, I'm getting 3.2VDC. How many volts should I be reading between the two lugs on the coil to make it fire?
Also, I'm wondering if I should pick up an analog volt meter to measure the coil firing because it fires so quick and the digital volt meter doesn't have time to read the voltage correctly. This might be why my readings keep fluctuating.
John Robertson
Apr 15, 2019, 10:47:35 PM4/15/19
to
>>
>> It would not hurt to add a 2A slow-blow fuse to the knocker coil by the
>> way, when this is all finished.
>>
>> John :-#)#
>>
>> --
>
>> It would not hurt to add a 2A slow-blow fuse to the knocker coil by the
>> way, when this is all finished.
>>
>> John :-#)#
>>
>> --
>
> John & Jim,
>
> Okay, I was measuring the circuit wrong, I am getting 24.46VDC on both lugs of the coil. Before I wasn't using ground as a reference when measuring the voltage, before I was just measuring across the two lugs on the coil to get 16VDC. However, today when I measured between the two lugs when doing the self test, I'm getting 3.2VDC. How many volts should I be reading between the two lugs on the coil to make it fire?
>
> Also, I'm wondering if I should pick up an analog volt meter to measure the coil firing because it fires so quick and the digital volt meter doesn't have time to read the voltage correctly. This might be why my readings keep fluctuating.
>
Hi Troy,
>
> Okay, I was measuring the circuit wrong, I am getting 24.46VDC on both lugs of the coil. Before I wasn't using ground as a reference when measuring the voltage, before I was just measuring across the two lugs on the coil to get 16VDC. However, today when I measured between the two lugs when doing the self test, I'm getting 3.2VDC. How many volts should I be reading between the two lugs on the coil to make it fire?
>
> Also, I'm wondering if I should pick up an analog volt meter to measure the coil firing because it fires so quick and the digital volt meter doesn't have time to read the voltage correctly. This might be why my readings keep fluctuating.
>
You should not have ANY voltage reading across a coil that is not
powered up. If you are getting 3.2VDC ACROSS the two lugs on the coil
then you really need to do my ground upgrades as I expect you will find
that the coil is warm to the touch as well as its driver transistor.
This will not end well otherwise!
https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System80
If the instructions are not clear enough please ask!
What I don't quite get though is you say earlier that you get 24.46VDC
on both lugs of the coil (relative to ground/common I assume) but then
you say you get 3.2VDC across the lugs. Both readings is not making
sense - it has to be one or the other...
However please do the ground upgrades before investing any more time in
troubleshooting - it may well make the problems go away!
Troy
Apr 15, 2019, 11:04:30 PM4/15/19
to
Sorry for the confusion. When I measure between either of the two lugs of the coil to common ground I get 24VDC. However, when measure between the two lugs on the coil and run the coil test (self diagnostic #17) I measure the 3.2VDC. What should I be measuring between the two lugs on the coils when I run the self diagnostic? Or am I testing this coil wrong?
John Robertson
Apr 16, 2019, 1:16:17 AM4/16/19
to
> John,
>
> Sorry for the confusion. When I measure between either of the two lugs of the coil to common ground I get 24VDC. However, when measure between the two lugs on the coil and run the coil test (self diagnostic #17) I measure the 3.2VDC. What should I be measuring between the two lugs on the coils when I run the self diagnostic? Or am I testing this coil wrong?
>
What do you get when you measure between the two coil lugs when the game
>
> Sorry for the confusion. When I measure between either of the two lugs of the coil to common ground I get 24VDC. However, when measure between the two lugs on the coil and run the coil test (self diagnostic #17) I measure the 3.2VDC. What should I be measuring between the two lugs on the coils when I run the self diagnostic? Or am I testing this coil wrong?
>
is not in solenoid test? Should be zero. If it is then read on...
If you are trying to measure the coil pulse your meter just isn't fast
enough to register that very short impulse. Easier to identify the metal
tab on the solenoid driver transistor and short that to ground
momentarily to see if the coil fires normally.
To trace control wire/line to that transistor that check the schematics
- note that the Knocker coil is connected to the lamp/solenoid board via
connector plug A3J5-Pin 8. That is connected to transistor Q53's
(2N6043) collector - the metal tab. Try jumpering that to the metal
ground plate in the game for a fraction of a second. You should get a
loud knock. If you do then the problem is either an issue with the
ground connection at J5 pin 3 (dirty pin/weak spring tension on the pin,
etc.) or the interconnect cable between the MPU and the l/s driver board
J1-Pin 21 has problems - or the end connecting to the MPU board.
Troy
Apr 16, 2019, 10:08:38 PM4/16/19
to
Thank you for the continued help. I was able to get the knocker to fire when I jumpered Q53 to the ground strap. Yay! Next I started looking for a loose connection. J5-pin 3 and J1-pin 21 seem to be okay. I was also able to do a continuity check all the way from J5-pin 8 to the knocker and J5-pin 3 to the ground strap. I started testing some of the components of the knocker circuit, and found a possible issue with the CR1 diode. When testing the diode, I'm getting .5 volts in one direction and .8 the other direction. Could this be problem?
John Robertson
Apr 17, 2019, 1:02:11 AM4/17/19
to
On 2019/04/16 7:08 p.m., Troy wrote:
> On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 11:16:17 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 2019/04/15 8:04 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:47:35 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>>>> On 2019/04/15 6:28 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 2:13:16 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>>>>>> On 2019/04/14 4:54 a.m., Gott Lieb? wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 4:38:29 PM UTC-4, Troy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:33:53 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2019/04/12 2:51 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for the help. I have a system 80 spider-man that is almost working a 100%. When I got the game, the knocker coil and transistor Q53 were bad. The burnt knocker coil was A-5194 (per the schematic was wrong), so I replaced it with coil A-5195. When I do the solenoid test, the knocker barely moves. I'm only measuring about 3 volts at the coil. Any ideas? I'm thinking it might be the 7416 inverter, but I'm not sure how to test it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The coil should show around 28VDC on both lugs. If not then is one lug a
>>>>>>>>> lower voltage than the other? If it is unplug the game and do my Ground
>>>>>>>>> Upgrades for System 80 games:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System80
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If both lugs show the same voltage but i is much lower than the rest of
>>>>>>>>> the coils then you have a bad connection to the solenoid power that you
>>>>>>>>> have to track down...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John :-#)#
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your response. I retested the voltage at the lugs on the coil, I'm getting 3.7VDC on lug that connected to banded side of the diode. When I flip the leads I get 0VDC. However, I disconnected the coil (plastic connectors were added at some) and I tested the voltage at the wires and I'm getting 16VDC. Could it be a problem with the new coil, or is 16VDC still too low?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The knocker power comes directly from the solenoid bridge rectifier.. Make certain that the wires are soldered up well there.
> On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 11:16:17 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 2019/04/15 8:04 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:47:35 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>>>> On 2019/04/15 6:28 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 2:13:16 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>>>>>> On 2019/04/14 4:54 a.m., Gott Lieb? wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 4:38:29 PM UTC-4, Troy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:33:53 PM UTC-6, John Robertson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2019/04/12 2:51 p.m., Troy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for the help. I have a system 80 spider-man that is almost working a 100%. When I got the game, the knocker coil and transistor Q53 were bad. The burnt knocker coil was A-5194 (per the schematic was wrong), so I replaced it with coil A-5195. When I do the solenoid test, the knocker barely moves. I'm only measuring about 3 volts at the coil. Any ideas? I'm thinking it might be the 7416 inverter, but I'm not sure how to test it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The coil should show around 28VDC on both lugs. If not then is one lug a
>>>>>>>>> lower voltage than the other? If it is unplug the game and do my Ground
>>>>>>>>> Upgrades for System 80 games:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html#System80
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If both lugs show the same voltage but i is much lower than the rest of
>>>>>>>>> the coils then you have a bad connection to the solenoid power that you
>>>>>>>>> have to track down...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John :-#)#
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your response. I retested the voltage at the lugs on the coil, I'm getting 3.7VDC on lug that connected to banded side of the diode. When I flip the leads I get 0VDC. However, I disconnected the coil (plastic connectors were added at some) and I tested the voltage at the wires and I'm getting 16VDC. Could it be a problem with the new coil, or is 16VDC still too low?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>
> John,
>
> Thank you for the continued help. I was able to get the knocker to fire when I jumpered Q53 to the ground strap. Yay! Next I started looking for a loose connection. J5-pin 3 and J1-pin 21 seem to be okay. I was also able to do a continuity check all the way from J5-pin 8 to the knocker and J5-pin 3 to the ground strap. I started testing some of the components of the knocker circuit, and found a possible issue with the CR1 diode. When testing the diode, I'm getting .5 volts in one direction and .8 the other direction. Could this be problem?
>
Hi Troy,
>
> Thank you for the continued help. I was able to get the knocker to fire when I jumpered Q53 to the ground strap. Yay! Next I started looking for a loose connection. J5-pin 3 and J1-pin 21 seem to be okay. I was also able to do a continuity check all the way from J5-pin 8 to the knocker and J5-pin 3 to the ground strap. I started testing some of the components of the knocker circuit, and found a possible issue with the CR1 diode. When testing the diode, I'm getting .5 volts in one direction and .8 the other direction. Could this be problem?
>
The diode should only conduct in one direction in diode test. These
readings you mention (0.5 and 0.8) are measured across the diode, not
reading from the end of the diode to ground?
If so, is the game powered up or is this the diode test?
Unplug the MPU interconnect cable and try checking that diode again. If
still similar readings then it would be time to replace it.
Troy
Apr 17, 2019, 10:32:37 PM4/17/19
to
Good news! The knocker is now working. The diode checked out okay after you suggested rechecking it with the interconnect cable unplugged. Not sure what else to try, I replaced the Q53 transistor and that fixed the problem. Yay!
Thank you for all your help! I really appreciate you taking the time to help me. You rock!
-Troy
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