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TECH: Gottlieb Sys 1 Issue - Not for the faint of heart! - Asteroid Annie -
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James Ard
May 20, 2013, 2:58:58 PM5/20/13
to
Hi, Gang!
I have an Asteroid Annie (sorry, she is NOT for sale) that was working perfectly until about a month ago. She has a Rottendog power supply, NiWumpf board (2006), and original driver board. All connectors were repinned in 2008.
First sign of an issue was when I powered her on and the kickout coil seemed locked on so I immediately powered off. The 2amp playfield fuse was blown. Went through an extensive test with a DMM to check every coil and all check good. Did the same thing with all the transistors on the driver board. Again, all checked good. Powered up again with a new 2amp fuse and it blew. Repinned all the connectors in the socket from the driver board to the coil in question. Loaded in a new 2 amp fuse...it blew. At this point I took a new Boston Pinball Co. driver board and installed it. And was soon tossing another 2amp fuse in the trash bin.
I went back and checked all the coils again, all the diodes (but did NOT cut them loose on one leg), physically examined my connector pins, took the DMM to the bridge rectifiers, loaded another fuse, and you guessed it. Blown.
Decided maybe it was an MPU problem at that point and bought a PI-1 board from Paschal. When I ran his diagnostics on the coils, they all checked out good and fire appropriately, and the fuse held. However, the game started one time, acted erratically and then failed to restart. Now, you press the credit button, it plays the start up tune, decreases credit count, and then... resets. No blown fuse... no indicator as to what is wrong. All the LEDs on the MPU are lit and I get the "67" code for "ready to play" in the credit window.
Last night when I tried to work on her, the kickout coil still tested good, but now the right target bank when I tried to test it caused all playfield lights to flash once, and then the game leaves test mode and will not allow me to finish testing the rest of the coils. It is physically resetting the targets though. "Physically" (mechanically, I guess) everything SEEMS to work as it should.
It is almost like the issue shifted from one coil (directly linked to the 2amp fuse that was blowing) to another. I have Clay's guide (God BLESS you, Clay!) and have read it end to end...I feel like I have exhausted every option I can think of (even replacing every board other then the power) and still no progress. I am now tempted to go back to the original board and Ni-Wumpf to see if it still blows the fuse - at least it seemed easier to trouble shoot.
Does anyone have any thoughts or would you be willing to sahre your insight, please?
Thank you so much!
James
I have an Asteroid Annie (sorry, she is NOT for sale) that was working perfectly until about a month ago. She has a Rottendog power supply, NiWumpf board (2006), and original driver board. All connectors were repinned in 2008.
First sign of an issue was when I powered her on and the kickout coil seemed locked on so I immediately powered off. The 2amp playfield fuse was blown. Went through an extensive test with a DMM to check every coil and all check good. Did the same thing with all the transistors on the driver board. Again, all checked good. Powered up again with a new 2amp fuse and it blew. Repinned all the connectors in the socket from the driver board to the coil in question. Loaded in a new 2 amp fuse...it blew. At this point I took a new Boston Pinball Co. driver board and installed it. And was soon tossing another 2amp fuse in the trash bin.
I went back and checked all the coils again, all the diodes (but did NOT cut them loose on one leg), physically examined my connector pins, took the DMM to the bridge rectifiers, loaded another fuse, and you guessed it. Blown.
Decided maybe it was an MPU problem at that point and bought a PI-1 board from Paschal. When I ran his diagnostics on the coils, they all checked out good and fire appropriately, and the fuse held. However, the game started one time, acted erratically and then failed to restart. Now, you press the credit button, it plays the start up tune, decreases credit count, and then... resets. No blown fuse... no indicator as to what is wrong. All the LEDs on the MPU are lit and I get the "67" code for "ready to play" in the credit window.
Last night when I tried to work on her, the kickout coil still tested good, but now the right target bank when I tried to test it caused all playfield lights to flash once, and then the game leaves test mode and will not allow me to finish testing the rest of the coils. It is physically resetting the targets though. "Physically" (mechanically, I guess) everything SEEMS to work as it should.
It is almost like the issue shifted from one coil (directly linked to the 2amp fuse that was blowing) to another. I have Clay's guide (God BLESS you, Clay!) and have read it end to end...I feel like I have exhausted every option I can think of (even replacing every board other then the power) and still no progress. I am now tempted to go back to the original board and Ni-Wumpf to see if it still blows the fuse - at least it seemed easier to trouble shoot.
Does anyone have any thoughts or would you be willing to sahre your insight, please?
Thank you so much!
James
Williams Ballystern
May 20, 2013, 3:15:46 PM5/20/13
to
James Ard;2074879 Wrote:
> Hi, Gang!
>
> I have an Asteroid Annie (sorry, she is NOT for sale) that was working
> perfectly until about a month ago. She has a Rottendog power supply,
> NiWumpf board (2006), and original driver board. All connectors were
> repinned in 2008.
>
> First sign of an issue was when I powered her on and the kickout coil
> seemed locked on so I immediately powered off. The 2amp playfield fuse
> was blown. Went through an extensive test with a DMM to check every coil
> and all check good. Did the same thing with all the transistors on the
> fuse and it blew. Repinned all the connectors in the socket from the
> driver board to the coil in question. Loaded in a new 2 amp fuse...it
> blew. At this point I took a new Boston Pinball Co. driver board and
> installed it. And was soon tossing another 2amp fuse in the trash bin.
>
> I went back and checked all the coils again, all the diodes (but did NOT
> cut them loose on one leg), physically examined my connector pins, took
> the DMM to the bridge rectifiers, loaded another fuse, and you guessed
> it. Blown..
> driver board to the coil in question. Loaded in a new 2 amp fuse...it
> blew. At this point I took a new Boston Pinball Co. driver board and
> installed it. And was soon tossing another 2amp fuse in the trash bin.
>
> I went back and checked all the coils again, all the diodes (but did NOT
> cut them loose on one leg), physically examined my connector pins, took
> the DMM to the bridge rectifiers, loaded another fuse, and you guessed
voltages and are going where they need to go?
--
Williams Ballystern
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
Xeneize
May 20, 2013, 3:21:43 PM5/20/13
to
Well, I get power throughout the game...I have not done a "pin by pin" inspection... do you think the power board could really be the issue? I guess I never suspected it...
barakandl
May 20, 2013, 3:25:24 PM5/20/13
to
On May 20, 3:21 pm, Xeneize <jamespeter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I get power throughout the game...I have not done a "pin by pin" inspection... do you think the power board could really be the issue? I guess I never suspected it...
These games suffer from poor grounding. I would run an extra ground
> Well, I get power throughout the game...I have not done a "pin by pin" inspection... do you think the power board could really be the issue? I guess I never suspected it...
wire from the ground strip to the power board. Then power boards out
to the driver and mpu. Check pinrepair.com for more info.
Xeneize
May 20, 2013, 3:35:22 PM5/20/13
to
On Monday, May 20, 2013 3:25:24 PM UTC-4, barakandl wrote:
> On May 20, 3:21 pm, Xeneize <jamespeter...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, I get power throughout the game...I have not done a "pin by pin" inspection... do you think the power board could really be the issue? I guess I never suspected it... These games suffer from poor grounding. I would run an extra ground wire from the ground strip to the power board. Then power boards out to the driver and mpu. Check pinrepair.com for more info.
Thanks for the feedback, I will try that.
> On May 20, 3:21 pm, Xeneize <jamespeter...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, I get power throughout the game...I have not done a "pin by pin" inspection... do you think the power board could really be the issue? I guess I never suspected it... These games suffer from poor grounding. I would run an extra ground wire from the ground strip to the power board. Then power boards out to the driver and mpu. Check pinrepair.com for more info.
ivan1496
May 20, 2013, 4:22:44 PM5/20/13
to
before the issue and address the original issue, (the kickout coil) a
little deeper.
I’d remove one side of the coil and start a game. You could easily
test/ play the game without the kickout in the circuit. If the game
plays or functions as it should minus the kickout would tell me
plenty. If the fuse continues to blow than its obviously somewhere
else. My guess is it’s a minor issue on the driver board. Testing
transistors with a DMM is fine but not always a cure all. If I recall
correctly, some of the transistors are Darlington pairs (two
transistors in one package) they can measure ok and still be bad.
Isolating the kickout circuit would shed light on this.
Ivan
ivan1496
May 20, 2013, 4:47:58 PM5/20/13
to
On May 20, 3:35 pm, Xeneize <jamespeter...@gmail.com> wrote:
limited. I have no schematic for this game so I can’t direct you to
component that controls it. I do have plenty of other system 1 info I
use for reference.
Xeneize
May 20, 2013, 5:18:25 PM5/20/13
to
Ivan, that is REALLY good feedback, and I will try it. Is there one lug better than another to disconnect on the coil? I do believe that the problem started there as that coil (and the outhole) are the only in the same circuit as the 2amp fuse. It seems less likely than a drive issue (IMO) as I did put in a brand new (grounded) driver board and still had issues.
I do have the schematic, so know where everything is - just not WHERE to continue my trouble shooting...Other than Clay's Guide, I do possess a Gottlieb SS manual. DO you have any other resources that you use which you woudl be willing to share? I have 3 System 1s, but this (ironically) is the only "unsolvable" issue I have ever encountered. Again, thanks so much for your input!
James
I do have the schematic, so know where everything is - just not WHERE to continue my trouble shooting...Other than Clay's Guide, I do possess a Gottlieb SS manual. DO you have any other resources that you use which you woudl be willing to share? I have 3 System 1s, but this (ironically) is the only "unsolvable" issue I have ever encountered. Again, thanks so much for your input!
James
ivan1496
May 20, 2013, 5:53:27 PM5/20/13
to
failed component wouldn’t care much. I also do recommend that you
undo one side of the diode and test. The diode can’t be tested going
across a spool of wire accurately.
It would seem that your shotgun approach could introduce other
problems causing your pain. I never trust those blasted interconnects
and prefer not to mess with them wherever possible. Even repined
doesn’t mean they connect effectively on the board. Its old shit and
I’ve fought with it more than I wish to share.
I have the same reference material as you so there is nothing magical
I could share other than my experience. If you have other system 1
games than you have everything you need to solve this problem. Please
use extreme caution so you don’t damage good stuff. It is possible
that perhaps this coil is shorting out to something and creating
additional problems. Remove the apron and look around. It could be
intermittent or whatever. The goal is to get you back to the original
problem and not add unknowns. Its what I’d do if I was there.
Perhaps testing boards in a known good machine is the better approach.
It would rule out playfield issues.
Ivan
Xeneize
May 20, 2013, 7:03:38 PM5/20/13
to
Ivan, you are making me regret my approach...but well put. I will try your suggestions and get back to you...thanks again - seriously.
Xeneize
May 23, 2013, 10:21:01 AM5/23/13
to
Well, Gang, I took Ivan's direction and reverted back to my original set up which was in place when the game stopped working. Ni-Wumpf and stock driver board. As soon as I powered up, I got a weird tone (one that is never heard during gameplay) and the 2amp SB fuse blew again and both the outhole and kickout locked on.
I have NOT cut/disconnected any diodes/coil lugs yet. Here is what is weird... when I test all of the coils with a DMM, none of them reflect low resistance. I know now that the diodes can give a false reading and can cut those to test if we think necessary.
When I swapped the Ni-Wumpf with a new Pascal Janin board (much better diagnostics) all of the coils tested successfully and the 2 AMP fuse would hold...It is as if the Pascal board was detecting and preventing the fuse from blowing. It would just reset back to "Game Over" as soon as the credit button was depressed.
Again, my connector between the MPU and driver boards was only a few years old and I replaced it with a new one once the game started acting weird. I don't THINK it is an issue with the driver board because A) everything passes the DMM tests Clay provides when the board is uninstalled and I got the same results when I installed a new Boston Pinball Co. board.
So, back at square one... power up and 2amp SB fuse blows immediately. Do I really need to start clipping a desoldering? I just want to be sure before I head down another rabbit hole...
Thanks guys!
I have NOT cut/disconnected any diodes/coil lugs yet. Here is what is weird... when I test all of the coils with a DMM, none of them reflect low resistance. I know now that the diodes can give a false reading and can cut those to test if we think necessary.
When I swapped the Ni-Wumpf with a new Pascal Janin board (much better diagnostics) all of the coils tested successfully and the 2 AMP fuse would hold...It is as if the Pascal board was detecting and preventing the fuse from blowing. It would just reset back to "Game Over" as soon as the credit button was depressed.
Again, my connector between the MPU and driver boards was only a few years old and I replaced it with a new one once the game started acting weird. I don't THINK it is an issue with the driver board because A) everything passes the DMM tests Clay provides when the board is uninstalled and I got the same results when I installed a new Boston Pinball Co. board.
So, back at square one... power up and 2amp SB fuse blows immediately. Do I really need to start clipping a desoldering? I just want to be sure before I head down another rabbit hole...
Thanks guys!
John Robertson
May 23, 2013, 12:21:36 PM5/23/13
to
On 05/23/2013 7:21 AM, Xeneize wrote:
> Well, Gang, I took Ivan's direction and reverted back to my original set up which was in place when the game stopped working. Ni-Wumpf and stock driver board. As soon as I powered up, I got a weird tone (one that is never heard during gameplay) and the 2amp SB fuse blew again and both the outhole and kickout locked on.
>
> I have NOT cut/disconnected any diodes/coil lugs yet. Here is what is weird.... when I test all of the coils with a DMM, none of them reflect low resistance. I know now that the diodes can give a false reading and can cut those to test if we think necessary.
> Well, Gang, I took Ivan's direction and reverted back to my original set up which was in place when the game stopped working. Ni-Wumpf and stock driver board. As soon as I powered up, I got a weird tone (one that is never heard during gameplay) and the 2amp SB fuse blew again and both the outhole and kickout locked on.
>
>
> When I swapped the Ni-Wumpf with a new Pascal Janin board (much better diagnostics) all of the coils tested successfully and the 2 AMP fuse would hold....It is as if the Pascal board was detecting and preventing the fuse from blowing. It would just reset back to "Game Over" as soon as the credit button was depressed.
>
> Again, my connector between the MPU and driver boards was only a few years old and I replaced it with a new one once the game started acting weird. I don't THINK it is an issue with the driver board because A) everything passes the DMM tests Clay provides when the board is uninstalled and I got the same results when I installed a new Boston Pinball Co. board.
>
> So, back at square one... power up and 2amp SB fuse blows immediately. Do I really need to start clipping a desoldering? I just want to be sure before I head down another rabbit hole...
>
> Thanks guys!
>
This sounds like a problem with the Ni-Wumpf driver board or your power
> Again, my connector between the MPU and driver boards was only a few years old and I replaced it with a new one once the game started acting weird. I don't THINK it is an issue with the driver board because A) everything passes the DMM tests Clay provides when the board is uninstalled and I got the same results when I installed a new Boston Pinball Co. board.
>
> So, back at square one... power up and 2amp SB fuse blows immediately. Do I really need to start clipping a desoldering? I just want to be sure before I head down another rabbit hole...
>
> Thanks guys!
>
supply. If you have 5VDC on the motherboard (remove the solenoid fuse
first) then you need to start probing with a logic probe or voltmeter to
find where the problem is on the board - or you can send it to one of
many service shops and get it repaired properly.
Don't have time to teach you digital electronics, but you can read up on
it in many places if you want to tackle it yourself as the problem is
pretty sure to be in the boards, not the game wiring/solenoids as they
appear to work on the Pascal board - if the coil(s) was(are) shorted or
open diode(s) then the Pascal board would fail too.
So don't go cutting coils, etc, troubleshoot the logic boards -
connections, power supply, shorted drivers, etc.
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Pin Del
May 23, 2013, 12:49:48 PM5/23/13
to
interested, $20.00 shipped.
Pin-Del,
cargpb28
Gott Lieb?
May 23, 2013, 1:07:55 PM5/23/13
to
What interconnect harness are you using in this game? The one with
double sided black housings is a trouble maker. Not naming names, the
black housings are a dead giveaway.
Also, you may have bad / broken diodes on the suspect coils. The Ni-
Wumpf CPU does not have the intelligence to shut the drivers down, if
a coil is locked on, like the Pascal board.
Jim
double sided black housings is a trouble maker. Not naming names, the
black housings are a dead giveaway.
Also, you may have bad / broken diodes on the suspect coils. The Ni-
Wumpf CPU does not have the intelligence to shut the drivers down, if
a coil is locked on, like the Pascal board.
Jim
Xeneize
May 23, 2013, 2:55:29 PM5/23/13
to
On Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:07:55 PM UTC-4, Gott Lieb? wrote:
> What interconnect harness are you using in this game? The one with double sided black housings is a trouble maker. Not naming names, the black housings are a dead giveaway. Also, you may have bad / broken diodes on the suspect coils. The Ni- Wumpf CPU does not have the intelligence to shut the drivers down, if a coil is locked on, like the Pascal board. Jim On May 23, 10:21 am, Xeneize <jamespeter...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, Gang, I took Ivan's direction and reverted back to my original set up which was in place when the game stopped working. Ni-Wumpf and stock driver board. As soon as I powered up, I got a weird tone (one that is never heard during gameplay) and the 2amp SB fuse blew again and both the outhole and kickout locked on. > > I have NOT cut/disconnected any diodes/coil lugs yet. Here is what is weird... when I test all of the coils with a DMM, none of them reflect low resistance. I know now that the diodes can give a false reading and can cut those to test if we think necessary. > > When I swapped the Ni-Wumpf with a new Pascal Janin board (much better diagnostics) all of the coils tested successfully and the 2 AMP fuse would hold...It is as if the Pascal board was detecting and preventing the fuse from blowing. It would just reset back to "Game Over" as soon as the credit button was depressed. > > Again, my connector between the MPU and driver boards was only a few years old and I replaced it with a new one once the game started acting weird. I don't THINK it is an issue with the driver board because A) everything passes the DMM tests Clay provides when the board is uninstalled and I got the same results when I installed a new Boston Pinball Co. board. > > So, back at square one... power up and 2amp SB fuse blows immediately. Do I really need to start clipping a desoldering? I just want to be sure before I head down another rabbit hole... > > Thanks guys!
Ahem, I am using the double black connectors...but when I installed the Pascal board I replaced the cable as well, with one from another provider. I didn't realize the "double blacks" were known to be prone to issues...but don't think it is the problem here..
> What interconnect harness are you using in this game? The one with double sided black housings is a trouble maker. Not naming names, the black housings are a dead giveaway. Also, you may have bad / broken diodes on the suspect coils. The Ni- Wumpf CPU does not have the intelligence to shut the drivers down, if a coil is locked on, like the Pascal board. Jim On May 23, 10:21 am, Xeneize <jamespeter...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, Gang, I took Ivan's direction and reverted back to my original set up which was in place when the game stopped working. Ni-Wumpf and stock driver board. As soon as I powered up, I got a weird tone (one that is never heard during gameplay) and the 2amp SB fuse blew again and both the outhole and kickout locked on. > > I have NOT cut/disconnected any diodes/coil lugs yet. Here is what is weird... when I test all of the coils with a DMM, none of them reflect low resistance. I know now that the diodes can give a false reading and can cut those to test if we think necessary. > > When I swapped the Ni-Wumpf with a new Pascal Janin board (much better diagnostics) all of the coils tested successfully and the 2 AMP fuse would hold...It is as if the Pascal board was detecting and preventing the fuse from blowing. It would just reset back to "Game Over" as soon as the credit button was depressed. > > Again, my connector between the MPU and driver boards was only a few years old and I replaced it with a new one once the game started acting weird. I don't THINK it is an issue with the driver board because A) everything passes the DMM tests Clay provides when the board is uninstalled and I got the same results when I installed a new Boston Pinball Co. board. > > So, back at square one... power up and 2amp SB fuse blows immediately. Do I really need to start clipping a desoldering? I just want to be sure before I head down another rabbit hole... > > Thanks guys!
Xeneize
May 23, 2013, 2:57:22 PM5/23/13
to
On Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:21:36 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
> On 05/23/2013 7:21 AM, Xeneize wrote: > Well, Gang, I took Ivan's direction and reverted back to my original set up which was in place when the game stopped working. Ni-Wumpf and stock driver board. As soon as I powered up, I got a weird tone (one that is never heard during gameplay) and the 2amp SB fuse blew again and both the outhole and kickout locked on. > > I have NOT cut/disconnected any diodes/coil lugs yet. Here is what is weird.... when I test all of the coils with a DMM, none of them reflect low resistance. I know now that the diodes can give a false reading and can cut those to test if we think necessary. > > When I swapped the Ni-Wumpf with a new Pascal Janin board (much better diagnostics) all of the coils tested successfully and the 2 AMP fuse would hold....It is as if the Pascal board was detecting and preventing the fuse from blowing. It would just reset back to "Game Over" as soon as the credit button was depressed. > > Again, my connector between the MPU and driver boards was only a few years old and I replaced it with a new one once the game started acting weird. I don't THINK it is an issue with the driver board because A) everything passes the DMM tests Clay provides when the board is uninstalled and I got the same results when I installed a new Boston Pinball Co. board. > > So, back at square one... power up and 2amp SB fuse blows immediately. Do I really need to start clipping a desoldering? I just want to be sure before I head down another rabbit hole... > > Thanks guys! > This sounds like a problem with the Ni-Wumpf driver board or your power supply. If you have 5VDC on the motherboard (remove the solenoid fuse first) then you need to start probing with a logic probe or voltmeter to find where the problem is on the board - or you can send it to one of many service shops and get it repaired properly. Don't have time to teach you digital electronics, but you can read up on it in many places if you want to tackle it yourself as the problem is pretty sure to be in the boards, not the game wiring/solenoids as they appear to work on the Pascal board - if the coil(s) was(are) shorted or open diode(s) then the Pascal board would fail too. So don't go cutting coils, etc, troubleshoot the logic boards - connections, power supply, shorted drivers, etc. John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
John: Thanks for the input - my Power supply is a Rotten Dog and only 5 years old. The connector from power to MPU was replaced along with the board. As far as power to the board goes, when I installed the Pascal Janin board for troubleshooting purposes, the LED did indicate power to the board. Do you still think I should probe the ICs? Thanks!
> On 05/23/2013 7:21 AM, Xeneize wrote: > Well, Gang, I took Ivan's direction and reverted back to my original set up which was in place when the game stopped working. Ni-Wumpf and stock driver board. As soon as I powered up, I got a weird tone (one that is never heard during gameplay) and the 2amp SB fuse blew again and both the outhole and kickout locked on. > > I have NOT cut/disconnected any diodes/coil lugs yet. Here is what is weird.... when I test all of the coils with a DMM, none of them reflect low resistance. I know now that the diodes can give a false reading and can cut those to test if we think necessary. > > When I swapped the Ni-Wumpf with a new Pascal Janin board (much better diagnostics) all of the coils tested successfully and the 2 AMP fuse would hold....It is as if the Pascal board was detecting and preventing the fuse from blowing. It would just reset back to "Game Over" as soon as the credit button was depressed. > > Again, my connector between the MPU and driver boards was only a few years old and I replaced it with a new one once the game started acting weird. I don't THINK it is an issue with the driver board because A) everything passes the DMM tests Clay provides when the board is uninstalled and I got the same results when I installed a new Boston Pinball Co. board. > > So, back at square one... power up and 2amp SB fuse blows immediately. Do I really need to start clipping a desoldering? I just want to be sure before I head down another rabbit hole... > > Thanks guys! > This sounds like a problem with the Ni-Wumpf driver board or your power supply. If you have 5VDC on the motherboard (remove the solenoid fuse first) then you need to start probing with a logic probe or voltmeter to find where the problem is on the board - or you can send it to one of many service shops and get it repaired properly. Don't have time to teach you digital electronics, but you can read up on it in many places if you want to tackle it yourself as the problem is pretty sure to be in the boards, not the game wiring/solenoids as they appear to work on the Pascal board - if the coil(s) was(are) shorted or open diode(s) then the Pascal board would fail too. So don't go cutting coils, etc, troubleshoot the logic boards - connections, power supply, shorted drivers, etc. John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Gott Lieb?
May 23, 2013, 7:04:32 PM5/23/13
to
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_1#The_CPU_.2F_Driver_Board_Interconnect_Harness
Additionally, the signals could get crossed, and coils could lock on.
One thing to note is that the company who offered these harnesses
doesn't anymore.
I thought you put a Pi-1x4 all-in-one in the game. They will shut
drivers down, if a coil is locked on. No idea if the Pi-1 has this
capability or not.
It sounds like your driver board solenoid grounds (the ones that are
involved with the suspect coil(s)) is / are bad. If Boston Pinball
ties all of their solenoid grounds together, (not familiar with their
board at all), then ignore this.
Jim
Additionally, the signals could get crossed, and coils could lock on.
One thing to note is that the company who offered these harnesses
doesn't anymore.
I thought you put a Pi-1x4 all-in-one in the game. They will shut
drivers down, if a coil is locked on. No idea if the Pi-1 has this
capability or not.
It sounds like your driver board solenoid grounds (the ones that are
involved with the suspect coil(s)) is / are bad. If Boston Pinball
ties all of their solenoid grounds together, (not familiar with their
board at all), then ignore this.
Jim
Xeneize
May 23, 2013, 7:30:02 PM5/23/13
to
The PI-1 DOES shut down the coils and keeps them from firing. It will fire them in test mode, and when it does, the fuse holds.
I replaced the harness per your recommendation and tossed the old black connectors version in the spare parts bin. I removed the Boston driver board and went back to the original driver board. The Boston board WAS grounded but the issue persisted and to remove variables I put the old boards (stock driver and Ni-Wumpf) back in the head. The good news (if you can call it that) is that is demonstrating the same behavior as before and constantly blowing the 2 amp fuse.
I have thoroughly tested the power across the power supply's pin and the NiWumpf indicates power is good.
Gott Lieb?
May 23, 2013, 8:29:08 PM5/23/13
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After looking some stuff up, here's what I found. The outhole is sol.
1. The kickout is sol. 6. These 2 coils are powered via the same 2A
SB fuse under the PF. Also, these two coils, along with sol. 7, share
the same 2 grounds (pins 7 and 8 on A3J4). I would make sure these
grounds are solid before doing anything else.
You stated that the Boston board was grounded, but didn't state if the
solenoid grounds were tied or not. GTB driver boards did not tie the
solenoid grounds together for some stupid reason (insert bash on
Rockwell here).
Jim
1. The kickout is sol. 6. These 2 coils are powered via the same 2A
SB fuse under the PF. Also, these two coils, along with sol. 7, share
the same 2 grounds (pins 7 and 8 on A3J4). I would make sure these
grounds are solid before doing anything else.
You stated that the Boston board was grounded, but didn't state if the
solenoid grounds were tied or not. GTB driver boards did not tie the
solenoid grounds together for some stupid reason (insert bash on
Rockwell here).
Jim
Xeneize
May 23, 2013, 10:34:37 PM5/23/13
to
Jim: Thanks for digging...I did realize that both coils shared that fuse. I was NOT aware of the grounding being shared. NOr did I realize that sol. 7 was part of the equation...there was a couple of times that it acted squirrely when I had the Pascal board in. So, we do see a trend of at least 6 and 7 either A) remaining locked (sol. 6 when the Ni-Wumpf was present) or B) the game resetting when the solenoid (sol 7 when the Pascal was in place) was test fired.
What is the best way to check/fix those grounds? Are the pins in question in the connector, or on the board? Sorry if my questions are a little elementary, but I am amazed that I have yet to find the culprit and want to make sure I thoroughly understand and make them as you put it, "solid".
With regards to the Boston board (which I removed and replaced with the original Rockwell board as it was what was there when the game first stopped working), It had one ground wire running from the right side of the board which I attached to the ground plate. I can send you a photo if that would help. So, not sure how I can tell if the grounds were tied together.
If I ever get her running again, I owe you a steak dinner...thanks again.
What is the best way to check/fix those grounds? Are the pins in question in the connector, or on the board? Sorry if my questions are a little elementary, but I am amazed that I have yet to find the culprit and want to make sure I thoroughly understand and make them as you put it, "solid".
With regards to the Boston board (which I removed and replaced with the original Rockwell board as it was what was there when the game first stopped working), It had one ground wire running from the right side of the board which I attached to the ground plate. I can send you a photo if that would help. So, not sure how I can tell if the grounds were tied together.
If I ever get her running again, I owe you a steak dinner...thanks again.
Gott Lieb?
May 24, 2013, 6:28:35 AM5/24/13
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The solenoid grounds are handled via the connector (pins). The odd
thing about your situation is that this group of coils actually has
two grounds. It would be odd that both are crocked, but stranger
things have happened.
Here is some of the background of Gottlieb Sys1 grounds. The first
thing (and this is obvious) is that the boards are not secured via
screws on a ground plane like the other "big three" manufacturers.
Gottlieb used the wiring to connect the logic grounds and solenoid
grounds. The problem with the logic ground is that they are daisy-
chained, and there is only one wire coming into the first board (power
supply). After the first board, two lines carrying ground are sent to
the next board (CPU). Finally, another single line is sent from the
CPU to the driver board. So, relying on a single line for logic
ground is risky at best. If one connector goes bad, the chain is
broken, and the driver board has no logic ground. This is why the
additional logic grounds are added to the boards.
Besides the logic ground being done this way, Gottlieb / Rockwell ran
discrete lamp and solenoid grounds. If you look at the schems of a
stock Sys1 driver board, you can see that the solenoids are grouped
together. Each group has a discrete ground. If the connection on the
driver board fails or the in-line connection which feeds the ground
plate fails, you will be missing solenoid grounds or have sporadic
grounds.
Regarding the Boston board, when I ask "are the grounds tied
together", I mean are the sol. grounds all tied together which would
give the board multiple ground feeds, or are they discrete like I
described above? This can easily be determined via their schems or a
continuity test between different sol. driver groups.
Jim
thing about your situation is that this group of coils actually has
two grounds. It would be odd that both are crocked, but stranger
things have happened.
Here is some of the background of Gottlieb Sys1 grounds. The first
thing (and this is obvious) is that the boards are not secured via
screws on a ground plane like the other "big three" manufacturers.
Gottlieb used the wiring to connect the logic grounds and solenoid
grounds. The problem with the logic ground is that they are daisy-
chained, and there is only one wire coming into the first board (power
supply). After the first board, two lines carrying ground are sent to
the next board (CPU). Finally, another single line is sent from the
CPU to the driver board. So, relying on a single line for logic
ground is risky at best. If one connector goes bad, the chain is
broken, and the driver board has no logic ground. This is why the
additional logic grounds are added to the boards.
Besides the logic ground being done this way, Gottlieb / Rockwell ran
discrete lamp and solenoid grounds. If you look at the schems of a
stock Sys1 driver board, you can see that the solenoids are grouped
together. Each group has a discrete ground. If the connection on the
driver board fails or the in-line connection which feeds the ground
plate fails, you will be missing solenoid grounds or have sporadic
grounds.
Regarding the Boston board, when I ask "are the grounds tied
together", I mean are the sol. grounds all tied together which would
give the board multiple ground feeds, or are they discrete like I
described above? This can easily be determined via their schems or a
continuity test between different sol. driver groups.
Jim
Gott Lieb?
May 24, 2013, 6:32:23 AM5/24/13
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Oh, and to answer your question about how to make the grounds solid,
check the ground connections at the driver board and the in-line
connector. Since you stated that you repinned the whole game, I would
look at the in-line connector. Could be loose fem .093" connectors
corrosion or oxidation going on there.
Jim
check the ground connections at the driver board and the in-line
connector. Since you stated that you repinned the whole game, I would
look at the in-line connector. Could be loose fem .093" connectors
corrosion or oxidation going on there.
Jim
John Robertson
May 24, 2013, 10:41:13 AM5/24/13
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On 05/23/2013 4:04 PM, Gott Lieb? wrote:
> http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_1#The_CPU_.2F_Driver_Board_Interconnect_Harness
>
> Additionally, the signals could get crossed, and coils could lock on.
> One thing to note is that the company who offered these harnesses
> doesn't anymore.
>
> I thought you put a Pi-1x4 all-in-one in the game. They will shut
> drivers down, if a coil is locked on. No idea if the Pi-1 has this
> capability or not.
>
> It sounds like your driver board solenoid grounds (the ones that are
> involved with the suspect coil(s)) is / are bad. If Boston Pinball
> ties all of their solenoid grounds together, (not familiar with their
> board at all), then ignore this.
>
> Jim
The problem with the Gottlieb grounds is NOT the individual solenoid
> http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_1#The_CPU_.2F_Driver_Board_Interconnect_Harness
>
> Additionally, the signals could get crossed, and coils could lock on.
> One thing to note is that the company who offered these harnesses
> doesn't anymore.
>
> I thought you put a Pi-1x4 all-in-one in the game. They will shut
> drivers down, if a coil is locked on. No idea if the Pi-1 has this
> capability or not.
>
> It sounds like your driver board solenoid grounds (the ones that are
> involved with the suspect coil(s)) is / are bad. If Boston Pinball
> ties all of their solenoid grounds together, (not familiar with their
> board at all), then ignore this.
>
> Jim
grounds, it is that the Power supply, MPU, AND Solenoid driver boards
that need to be tied together. You see if the MPU ground is not solid
with the power supply ground then a voltage difference can occur leading
to solenoids getting turned on.
'Fixing' the individual solenoid grounds does not do anything to help
this problem. A bad single solenoid ground will only cause that
particular solenoid to be either weaker then expected or not able to
fire at all - nothing else.
My explanation (and the back story) to better understand the ground issue:
https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html
John :-#)#
>
> On May 23, 2:55 pm, Xeneize <jamespeter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ahem, I am using the double black connectors...but when I installed the Pascal board I replaced the cable as well, with one from another provider. I didn't realize the "double blacks" were known to be prone to issues...but don't think it is the problem here..
>
Xeneize
May 25, 2013, 9:37:18 AM5/25/13
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Thanks for all your feedback, Gang.
I have the schematic and only the outhole and kickout are in the circuit that blows the 2 amp fuse. Once the fuse blows, when I try to start up a game, the coils (the two in question) immediately lock on. I then immediately power off for fear of burning them up. I am not sure how long they can be locked on before other problems occur.
You are correct, the Pascal was purchased as a replacement for the NiWumpf. My logic went like this and I will retrace my steps. The game was working perfectly (other than a credit display issue - which had been around for a while) prior to the first time the 2amp fuse blew.
1) Tested all the coils with my DMM and none had low resistance. All diodes looked solid and well connected. 2amp fuse blowing at start up.
2) Removed driver board and my transistor readings were not dead on with Clay's and seemed a little off so before altering the Rockwell board, I went ahead and replaced with the Boston pinball driver board - several have asked about this board, it can be seen here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=111076749440
After installing this board the 2amp fuse was still blowing when I try to start a game.
3) Repinned all associated connectors to that circuit, fuse still blew
4) Now that I have "eliminated" the driver board and connectors, I install a new Pascal Janin. Here is where it gets interesting... when the NiWumpf was installed, I would get some kind of random read out on the display that made no sense and I could NOT enter the test menu at all.
However, with the Pascal board installed, the score display acts normal, I get a 5 second delay prior to boot up and I can enter into all diagnostic menus. When I tested all of the coils consecutively with the PJ board, it would test them all but skip the sixth coil (kickout) and act like it didn't exist and just end the diagnostic cycle. However, if I would cycle through the coils without test firing them, it would recognize that the sixth coil was there and let me successfully test fire it. It would do this consistently, but every once in a while it would even let me consecutively test fire all of the coils and even INCLUDE coil 6 in the series. While the PJ board was installed, it would NEVER blow the 2amp fuse. Now, during my last few tests with the PJ board before I took it out, it would reach solenoid 8 (the right target bank) and as soon as I would test fire it, the diagnostic cycle would end before allowing me to test the other coils. This only happened after over a week of testing and probing, but was extremely frustrating because it seemed like it was now failing at a second spot. Now, that I am thinking about it I am pretty sure it was the right target bank and not the left (I should have written it down) but I cannot swear to it - it was one of the two, but I am pretty sure it was the right side as it does not have an under playfield transistor.
Anyhow at this point someone here basically said "you're making a mess of things, you need to go back to the original configuration to see if you have messed up something else now" (very valid feedback). So, I did. Other than replacing the "black head" connector from the MPU to driver board with a new, more reliable cable, I reinstalled the Ni-Wumpf and Rockwell driver. The good news (I guess) is that it is still doing the exact same thing. I power up and it performs a reset fire of the coils and the 2amp fuse blows and the outhole and kicker stay locked on (I cannot tell if any others are as they are under the playfield - but honestly as the 2 amp fuse is the one blowing and only those two coils are in that circuit, I don't think any are).
Sorry for the novel, but I am truly stumped. When I test my Rottendog power supply, all the power is there and it seems to be reaching the MPU (the PJ board verified this).
I guess, it could be grounding issues, I guess (everyone seems to like to blame grounding) but not sure how to bolster my grounding or if it is necessary seeing as how I have the Rottendog power supply, and given that I am not using a Rockwell MPU. When I had the Boston driver board installed it did have a dedicated ground wire which I attached. As stated previously I have not cut any diodes yet, but the coils themselves do all check out good when I had the Pascal installed (provided I test them in the right "sequence").
I really appreciate your help!
I have the schematic and only the outhole and kickout are in the circuit that blows the 2 amp fuse. Once the fuse blows, when I try to start up a game, the coils (the two in question) immediately lock on. I then immediately power off for fear of burning them up. I am not sure how long they can be locked on before other problems occur.
You are correct, the Pascal was purchased as a replacement for the NiWumpf. My logic went like this and I will retrace my steps. The game was working perfectly (other than a credit display issue - which had been around for a while) prior to the first time the 2amp fuse blew.
1) Tested all the coils with my DMM and none had low resistance. All diodes looked solid and well connected. 2amp fuse blowing at start up.
2) Removed driver board and my transistor readings were not dead on with Clay's and seemed a little off so before altering the Rockwell board, I went ahead and replaced with the Boston pinball driver board - several have asked about this board, it can be seen here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=111076749440
After installing this board the 2amp fuse was still blowing when I try to start a game.
3) Repinned all associated connectors to that circuit, fuse still blew
4) Now that I have "eliminated" the driver board and connectors, I install a new Pascal Janin. Here is where it gets interesting... when the NiWumpf was installed, I would get some kind of random read out on the display that made no sense and I could NOT enter the test menu at all.
However, with the Pascal board installed, the score display acts normal, I get a 5 second delay prior to boot up and I can enter into all diagnostic menus. When I tested all of the coils consecutively with the PJ board, it would test them all but skip the sixth coil (kickout) and act like it didn't exist and just end the diagnostic cycle. However, if I would cycle through the coils without test firing them, it would recognize that the sixth coil was there and let me successfully test fire it. It would do this consistently, but every once in a while it would even let me consecutively test fire all of the coils and even INCLUDE coil 6 in the series. While the PJ board was installed, it would NEVER blow the 2amp fuse. Now, during my last few tests with the PJ board before I took it out, it would reach solenoid 8 (the right target bank) and as soon as I would test fire it, the diagnostic cycle would end before allowing me to test the other coils. This only happened after over a week of testing and probing, but was extremely frustrating because it seemed like it was now failing at a second spot. Now, that I am thinking about it I am pretty sure it was the right target bank and not the left (I should have written it down) but I cannot swear to it - it was one of the two, but I am pretty sure it was the right side as it does not have an under playfield transistor.
Anyhow at this point someone here basically said "you're making a mess of things, you need to go back to the original configuration to see if you have messed up something else now" (very valid feedback). So, I did. Other than replacing the "black head" connector from the MPU to driver board with a new, more reliable cable, I reinstalled the Ni-Wumpf and Rockwell driver. The good news (I guess) is that it is still doing the exact same thing. I power up and it performs a reset fire of the coils and the 2amp fuse blows and the outhole and kicker stay locked on (I cannot tell if any others are as they are under the playfield - but honestly as the 2 amp fuse is the one blowing and only those two coils are in that circuit, I don't think any are).
Sorry for the novel, but I am truly stumped. When I test my Rottendog power supply, all the power is there and it seems to be reaching the MPU (the PJ board verified this).
I guess, it could be grounding issues, I guess (everyone seems to like to blame grounding) but not sure how to bolster my grounding or if it is necessary seeing as how I have the Rottendog power supply, and given that I am not using a Rockwell MPU. When I had the Boston driver board installed it did have a dedicated ground wire which I attached. As stated previously I have not cut any diodes yet, but the coils themselves do all check out good when I had the Pascal installed (provided I test them in the right "sequence").
I really appreciate your help!
Gott Lieb?
May 25, 2013, 12:48:51 PM5/25/13
to
JRR is correct. Please discount my statement regarding the sol.
grounds. If they were bad the solenoids would not work.
Personally, I would disconnect the driver board connection, pop the
sol. fuse, and start probing the outputs of the drivers on the driver
board. If the drivers are locked on, you have an issue with the
driver board, CPU board, interconnect, or all of them. If the signals
on the driver board all check out, change the diodes on the coils.
Also, make certain that the coils are wired correctly with respect to
the diodes.
Finally, if there is not a secondary ground on the driver board for
the logic ground, add one.
Jim
grounds. If they were bad the solenoids would not work.
Personally, I would disconnect the driver board connection, pop the
sol. fuse, and start probing the outputs of the drivers on the driver
board. If the drivers are locked on, you have an issue with the
driver board, CPU board, interconnect, or all of them. If the signals
on the driver board all check out, change the diodes on the coils.
Also, make certain that the coils are wired correctly with respect to
the diodes.
Finally, if there is not a secondary ground on the driver board for
the logic ground, add one.
Jim
Xeneize
May 26, 2013, 12:12:57 AM5/26/13
to
Well, we finally found the culprit! One of our fellow RGP'ers who shall remain anonymous GRACIOUSLY spent several hours on the phone with me today and we ran through several hours of logical testing. Turns out that the RottenDog power supply was at fault. Even though the DMM reflected acceptable tolerance 95%, and the MPU appeared to be getting enough power, as soon as I installed a known working Rockwell board, the issue disappeared. I am not sure WHY the RottenDog is so hard to detect at point of failure, but it is - so don't rule it out when experiencing Sys 1 issues.
I extend my sincerest thanks to all who contributed their advice and tip my hat to the man willing to give up several hours of his Saturday to help bring Annie back to life - I will not soon forget your kindness!
Happy Memorial Day weekend to all!
James
I extend my sincerest thanks to all who contributed their advice and tip my hat to the man willing to give up several hours of his Saturday to help bring Annie back to life - I will not soon forget your kindness!
Happy Memorial Day weekend to all!
James
Gott Lieb?
May 26, 2013, 5:14:01 AM5/26/13
to
Wow! Would have never suspected a bad power supply. Not certain how
it created the issues you saw, but congrats!
Jim
it created the issues you saw, but congrats!
Jim
John Robertson
May 26, 2013, 12:42:49 PM5/26/13
to
logic boards as I asked many messages ago? I still think that was the
root of your problems.
If you want a reliable System 1 power regulator I'd go with Ed's.
John :-#)#
Gott Lieb?
May 26, 2013, 3:43:00 PM5/26/13
to
John, IIRC, when the R-D power supply is secured to the old heat
sink / bracket, it completes the ground path physically via the 3
mounting screws.
Jim
sink / bracket, it completes the ground path physically via the 3
mounting screws.
Jim
John Robertson
May 26, 2013, 8:51:16 PM5/26/13
to
On 05/26/2013 12:43 PM, Gott Lieb? wrote:
> John, IIRC, when the R-D power supply is secured to the old heat
> sink / bracket, it completes the ground path physically via the 3
> mounting screws.
>
> Jim
I've never seen a RD System 1 supply, so casn't comment on it's
> John, IIRC, when the R-D power supply is secured to the old heat
> sink / bracket, it completes the ground path physically via the 3
> mounting screws.
>
> Jim
grounding abilities - the ground to the backplane is only good if that
is well tied to the cabinet ground and the other logic boards.
John :-#)#
>
> On May 26, 12:42 pm, John Robertson <s...@flippers.com> wrote:
>> On 05/25/2013 9:12 PM, Xeneize wrote:
>>
Xeneize
May 28, 2013, 11:59:54 AM5/28/13
to
John:
Sorry I didnt respond sooner - was travelling... FYI, the grounds on the rottendog board were indeed tied to the cabinet and driver.
I am still confounded by the fact that it was the issue, but literally have reinstalled everything in my original config other than the power supply and have zero issues since.
Thanks,
James
Sorry I didnt respond sooner - was travelling... FYI, the grounds on the rottendog board were indeed tied to the cabinet and driver.
I am still confounded by the fact that it was the issue, but literally have reinstalled everything in my original config other than the power supply and have zero issues since.
Thanks,
James
John Robertson
May 28, 2013, 1:24:04 PM5/28/13
to
Thanks for that confirmation of the RD power regulator as being the
source of the problem. You should contact Jim @ RD to get that fixed.
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