LOTR - Deep Throat spills the beans.

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TreasureCove

oläst,
8 nov. 2003 08:15:422003-11-08
till
Just got word from a friend of mine, ... we'll just call him 'Deep Throat'
who says he's actually "played" LOTR. He says it's Stern's best yet, ... and
that the playfield has two towers on it with the "evil one" collapsing like
Medieval Madness.

just thought I'd pass this on...

Allen "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" Shope

Brad Czernik

oläst,
8 nov. 2003 10:04:012003-11-08
till
Don't quit your day job.

- Brad

Ray Johnson - Action Pinball

oläst,
8 nov. 2003 14:23:532003-11-08
till
"TreasureCove" wrote:
> Just got word from a friend of mine, ... we'll just call him 'Deep Throat'
> who says he's actually "played" LOTR. He says it's Stern's best yet, ...
and
> that the playfield has two towers on it with the "evil one" collapsing
like
> Medieval Madness.

Yeah- that was covered in the Replay article. So no new news... still
drooling for more info and some pics!

--
Ray Johnson
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!


Mani

oläst,
8 nov. 2003 16:13:542003-11-08
till
Sometimes I've wondered if Stern have made LOTR similar to MM
cosmetically, but also in terms of gameplay (MM/AFM style gameplay).
Just imagine the excitement over this game if it turned out to be a
straight up MM clone. Then again, maybe not due to the upper
playfield. But still ...

We still don't know who designed it, right? What if they brought in
Brian Eddy? Hmmmmmm indeed!

-Mani

"TreasureCove" <aksn...@iglou.com> wrote in message news:<206rb.146281$e01.505047@attbi_s02>...

Kevin L'Heureux

oläst,
9 nov. 2003 02:53:442003-11-09
till
In article <7869303.03110...@posting.google.com>, Mani
<goo...@goddamnelectric.com> wrote:

> Sometimes I've wondered if Stern have made LOTR similar to MM
> cosmetically, but also in terms of gameplay (MM/AFM style gameplay).
> Just imagine the excitement over this game if it turned out to be a
> straight up MM clone.

I've been saying all along that Stern should make a MM clone, they
would have a huge hit on their hands and sell like crazy especially to
operators looking for the next MM to boost their pinball earnings.


> We still don't know who designed it, right? What if they brought in
> Brian Eddy? Hmmmmmm indeed!

This i have also said would be a no-brainer. Get Eddy Stern!!!!!

--
Pins - M*dieval Madness - M*nster Bash - F*14 - R*pid Fire

(Coming Soon?) RFM - LOTR

Vids - D*nkey Kong

Past Pins - H*gh Speed #1 - T*Z - H*gh Speed #2 - C*ctus Canyon - S*fe Cracker

Daniel Northover

oläst,
9 nov. 2003 07:35:242003-11-09
till
I thought Austin Powers already was a clone of MM AFM.
Daniel Northover
djnor...@earthlink.net

If it ain't an Arrow wood It ain't any good.

trent

oläst,
9 nov. 2003 09:37:262003-11-09
till
A clone has already been made. SST. Check the shots. Check the rules.

Trent

Kevin L'Heureux <tvs...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<081120032353440548%tvs...@attbi.com>...

Iain Odlin

oläst,
9 nov. 2003 12:52:172003-11-09
till
On 9 Nov 2003 06:37:26 -0800, tr...@midohio.net (trent) wrote:

>A clone has already been made. SST. Check the shots. Check the rules.

Check the acronym list to figure out what the heck game "SST" is...

-Iain

Bigd849498

oläst,
9 nov. 2003 13:02:462003-11-09
till
StarShip Troopers
Derek

Iain Odlin

oläst,
9 nov. 2003 18:26:082003-11-09
till
On 09 Nov 2003 18:02:46 GMT, bigd8...@cs.com (Bigd849498) wrote:

>StarShip Troopers

Oh! I thought we were talking about _pinball_ machines...

;)

-Iain, not a huge Sega fan

Aron Boag

oläst,
10 nov. 2003 01:27:202003-11-10
till
On 11/9/03 6:26 PM, in article h7jtqv44ge5r3mebl...@4ax.com,
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Oh, that's a pretty low blow there, Iain. I'm hardly what you'd call a Sega
fan myself, but I give credit where it's due, and SST isn't all bad. The
playfield design is pretty good (I like the three flippers thing, and the
criss-cross ramps thing, and a couple other things...), the artwork is
pretty darned bad, and the sounds/art is cheesy, but the gameplay's not all
bad at all. Better than average, for sure.

Don't get me wrong: the ratio of bad Sega games to good Sega games is
probably in the 8:1 range, but I've gotta give credit to some games such as
Apollo 13, Batman Forever, Starship Troopers, and, uh, er, hmmm...there's
gotta be one more that I'm forgetting.

Still, all Sega games weren't bad, and some were downright good!


Aron

Yancy Blaylock

oläst,
10 nov. 2003 11:18:152003-11-10
till
google@REMOVE_THISgoddamnelectric.com (Mani) wrote:
> We still don't know who designed it, right?

If I'm not mistaken, George Gomez designed the game and Keith Johnson
wrote the software.

Yancy

-----------------------------------------------

e-mail address in header is a trash account...
you can find me here: yancy at musician dot org

David Gersic

oläst,
10 nov. 2003 14:02:022003-11-10
till
On 8 Nov 2003 13:13:54 -0800, Mani <goo...@goddamnelectric.com> wrote:
> Sometimes I've wondered if Stern have made LOTR similar to MM
> cosmetically, but also in terms of gameplay (MM/AFM style gameplay).

God, let's hope not. I'd much rather they do something different,
original, not just re-hash the same thing over and over again.


--
| David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
| I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well! |
| Email address is munged to avoid spammers. Remove the underscores. |

Aron Boag

oläst,
10 nov. 2003 14:36:492003-11-10
till
On 11/10/03 2:02 PM, in article boonba$joe$4...@husk.cso.niu.edu, "David
Gersic" <dgersic_@_niu.edu> wrote:

> On 8 Nov 2003 13:13:54 -0800, Mani <goo...@goddamnelectric.com> wrote:
>> Sometimes I've wondered if Stern have made LOTR similar to MM
>> cosmetically, but also in terms of gameplay (MM/AFM style gameplay).
>
> God, let's hope not. I'd much rather they do something different,
> original, not just re-hash the same thing over and over again.

::coughAustinPowerscough::

;)


Aron

Abby Franquemont

oläst,
10 nov. 2003 18:01:062003-11-10
till
In article <BBD499F8.F583%boa...@comcast.net>,
Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:

[snip]

>Don't get me wrong: the ratio of bad Sega games to good Sega games is
>probably in the 8:1 range, but I've gotta give credit to some games such as
>Apollo 13, Batman Forever, Starship Troopers, and, uh, er, hmmm...there's
>gotta be one more that I'm forgetting.

I did not think "Hook" sucked at all. I also remember being somewhat
surprised at finding Baywatch fun to play. SST, I go back and forth
on but agree it does not suck. Meanwhile, there are Williams/Bally
games which I do feel sucked, such as Black Rose, which I just could
never stand.

--
Abby Franquemont "Chevrolet does not condone being tailgated
J. Random BOFH by a giant ore hauler." -- Trailblazer ad

Aron Boag

oläst,
11 nov. 2003 00:39:012003-11-11
till
On 11/10/03 6:01 PM, in article ib5pob...@ucan.foad.org, "Abby
Franquemont" <ab...@ucan.foad.org> wrote:

> In article <BBD499F8.F583%boa...@comcast.net>,
> Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Don't get me wrong: the ratio of bad Sega games to good Sega games is
>> probably in the 8:1 range, but I've gotta give credit to some games such as
>> Apollo 13, Batman Forever, Starship Troopers, and, uh, er, hmmm...there's
>> gotta be one more that I'm forgetting.
>
> I did not think "Hook" sucked at all. I also remember being somewhat
> surprised at finding Baywatch fun to play. SST, I go back and forth
> on but agree it does not suck. Meanwhile, there are Williams/Bally
> games which I do feel sucked, such as Black Rose, which I just could
> never stand.

Hmmm, well Abby, the first thing that I have to do here is correct you on
Hook. That was a title developed under the Data East nameplate.

Baywatch, while it had an interesting playfield layout, wasn't much fun to
play in my opinion. A large display didn't help it at all, and to put it
bluntly, Batman Forever was the only game that even utilized the large DMD
to any reasonable degree.

Can't argue much on the Black Rose point, though.


Aron

Iain Odlin

oläst,
11 nov. 2003 00:48:312003-11-11
till
On 10 Nov 2003 08:18:15 -0800, ya...@mailinator.com (Yancy Blaylock) wrote:

>If I'm not mistaken, George Gomez designed the game

Oh, please God: No... I don't think I could stand having LotR be a "Shoot
target <x> <y> times for effect <z>; Lather; Rinse; Repeat" pin...

>and Keith Johnson
>wrote the software.

This much we knew for fact already, and it's a point very much in its favor.

Here's hoping the two don't cancel each other out.

-Iain

Abby Franquemont

oläst,
11 nov. 2003 13:01:522003-11-11
till
In article <BBD5E025.F739%boa...@comcast.net>,

Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Hmmm, well Abby, the first thing that I have to do here is correct you on
>Hook. That was a title developed under the Data East nameplate.

Dang, was it? Okay, then I'll save that example for the Data East
pins that don't suck thread.

>Baywatch, while it had an interesting playfield layout, wasn't much fun to
>play in my opinion. A large display didn't help it at all, and to put it
>bluntly, Batman Forever was the only game that even utilized the large DMD
>to any reasonable degree.

I agree that BF actually *did* something with it whereas in the others, it
was mostly just... a DMD, only bigger. My impressions of Baywatch are
based on remembering a couple of long afternoons at, IIRC, the arcade at
Navy Pier in Chicago sometime in the mid-90s, when I kept finding myself
playing the Baywatch game. I haven't played it to the point of getting
sick of it, and I haven't played it recently. What I remember liking about
it was, as you note, the playfield layout, and I also vaguely recall that
it seemed to be tongue-in-cheek about its theme.

>Can't argue much on the Black Rose point, though.

See, now I've been expecting to hear argument on that subject. I *wanted*
to like Black Rose, but I just didn't. In fact I think it was the only
game ever that was at my neighborhood bar, and I pleaded for them to
replace it with something else. Mind you, I played it plenty, because
even pinball that sucks is better than no pinball... but I probably would
have been delighted if they'd replaced it even with something like
Robocop (instead, they replaced it by bringing back the TAF that had
left a while previously, which placated the resident pinheads who were
all clamoring for Black Rose to leave). Heck, I'd rather play Lethal
Weapon. ;-)

Pinlicious

oläst,
11 nov. 2003 16:38:032003-11-11
till
>Subject: Re: LOTR - Deep Throat spills the beans.
>From: ab...@ucan.foad.org (Abby Franquemont)
>Date: 11/11/2003 1:01 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <g68rob...@ucan.foad.org>

be it true that black rose lix donkey marbles, don't take arons word on what is
good an bad in pinball. he chooses to own some interesting themes over the
likes of afm and mb simply because he played blown out games on location that
never worked correctly and it haunts him til this day! ; )

pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)

Aron Boag

oläst,
11 nov. 2003 18:09:052003-11-11
till
On 11/11/03 1:01 PM, in article g68rob...@ucan.foad.org, "Abby
Franquemont" <ab...@ucan.foad.org> wrote:

> In article <BBD5E025.F739%boa...@comcast.net>,
> Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hmmm, well Abby, the first thing that I have to do here is correct you on
>> Hook. That was a title developed under the Data East nameplate.
>
> Dang, was it? Okay, then I'll save that example for the Data East
> pins that don't suck thread.

There'll be one coming along pretty quickly...there always is.



>> Baywatch, while it had an interesting playfield layout, wasn't much fun to
>> play in my opinion. A large display didn't help it at all, and to put it
>> bluntly, Batman Forever was the only game that even utilized the large DMD
>> to any reasonable degree.
>
> I agree that BF actually *did* something with it whereas in the others, it
> was mostly just... a DMD, only bigger. My impressions of Baywatch are
> based on remembering a couple of long afternoons at, IIRC, the arcade at
> Navy Pier in Chicago sometime in the mid-90s, when I kept finding myself
> playing the Baywatch game. I haven't played it to the point of getting
> sick of it, and I haven't played it recently. What I remember liking about
> it was, as you note, the playfield layout, and I also vaguely recall that
> it seemed to be tongue-in-cheek about its theme.

Well, the Monster Squid (or whatever it was) aside, the game just didn't
have the software to back up that pretty good playfield.



>> Can't argue much on the Black Rose point, though.
>
> See, now I've been expecting to hear argument on that subject. I *wanted*
> to like Black Rose, but I just didn't. In fact I think it was the only
> game ever that was at my neighborhood bar, and I pleaded for them to
> replace it with something else. Mind you, I played it plenty, because
> even pinball that sucks is better than no pinball... but I probably would
> have been delighted if they'd replaced it even with something like
> Robocop (instead, they replaced it by bringing back the TAF that had
> left a while previously, which placated the resident pinheads who were
> all clamoring for Black Rose to leave). Heck, I'd rather play Lethal
> Weapon. ;-)

Well, having played Wolffy's shopped-to-the-nines BR at Expo last month, I
*can* say that it was better than I remembered it being, but that was due in
large part to Wolffy changing the multiball settings so that a player
couldn't rape the game up, down, left, right, underwater, in their sleep,
with the lights out. Instead, you had to hit alternating ramps for SINK
SHIP letters during multiball, which made a big difference. It kept you
from holding a ball or two on the left flipper, shooting the left ramp with
the right flipper, and then banging the third flipper ramp for letter all
day long, which *really* imbalances the scoring in that game. Scores in the
multiple billions aren't only unheard of, they can be relatively common.
Pretty silly in a game with a low replay score (30 million? Maybe?) and a
lack of a massive point shot (i.e. the billion shot in BoP).

While it was nice to see a clean, well-lit example of the game, I still find
it ugly (which is more personal preference than anything else, I suppose), I
think the music is annoyingly repetitive, and I can't *stand* the way Dr.
Flash likes to play unfairly with the ball in front of the flippers a la BR,
CFTBL, Congo, etc. Bugs the crap out of me.

All things being equal, I don't much care for the game, but I've gotta give
credit where it's due: Wolffy, from what I understand, rescued this game
from the depths of despair (or disrepair), and made it play and look as nice
as the game can.

Which, in Black Rose's case, isn't saying that much. ;)


Aron (always crossing that not-so-fine line of criticism and out-and-out
snottiness)

Aron Boag

oläst,
11 nov. 2003 21:17:302003-11-11
till
On 11/11/03 4:38 PM, in article
20031111163803...@mb-m13.aol.com, "Pinlicious"
<pinli...@aol.com> wrote:

If, by "blown out games", you mean "test games monitored by WMS personnel"
and "brand new games that were just removed from their boxes and set up
properly" and "games that were properly maintained", then yes, I've played
*tons* of "blown out games" which exhibited the design problems that I've
documented in the past about AFM and MB, amongst others. I'll rail on them
until the end of time, not simply because I can, but because they SUCK!
SUCK I SAY! SUCK LIKE A FACTORY-FRESH HOOVER!

It *still* appears that you do not have the ability to turn back the hands
of time and cause these things to not happen. You need to work on that, as
you'll never change the facts. :)


Aron (who, even if he isn't always right, is honest, and *consistent*)

KimBrennan

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 01:27:232003-11-12
till
Hmm, I think you should play Baywatch More Aron.

We've been playing it in our league, and a WORKING one, is surprisingly fun to
play (and this is from a lot of folks that did NOT care for it initially).

It's actually a pretty balanced game. It's a very broad game (lots to do), but
not very deep (i.e. you can't stack much on top of any mode, the biggest
exception being squid pops during multiball.)

Finishing CPR (3 left ramps to start, then all 3 of the ramps to finish) is
very satisfying. Harder to do, than it sounds, because that left ramp is >NOT<
forgiving of less than perfect shots.

Shark Cove (which we used to avoid playing when we first played the game) (hit
the shark hole or shark targets, something like 10 times) actually turns out to
be a very lucrative mode and not terribly risky.

Chopper Rescue (hit the standups 2 times each, and then hit the roving lit
ramp) is a bit more challenging.

There are two other main modes, then there is Tourist Season (I've gotten to it
once) and Earthquake (never gotten to that). There is also Guard Millions (if
you do things quickly this can be worth 250 million points.)

I'd almost consider buying one (a friend just did, in fact) and 5 years ago
>THAT< thought would have horrified any of us in the FSPA.

My biggest objection to Data East/Sega games is the horrid sounds that they
have in most of the games. Baywatch has the giggling dolphins which, while bad,
isn't nearly has hurtful to my ears as the screeching bugs in Starship
Troopers, or the Monster groan in Frankenstein.

Having played a number of these games in league, the games aren't as bad as I
thought there were. They are typically, not as DEEP as Williams/Bally games of
the same era, but they are often times as broad or broader in their rules.

It just depends on whether you like going for the same shot(s) over and over,
or having to determine what to shoot depending on what is going on in the game,
knowing that if you don't shoot the right thing, you'll get nothing for your
shot no matter how accurate you were.

"I'm sorry, all my money is tied up in currency."
W.C.Fields

Pinlicious

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 11:12:562003-11-12
till
>Subject: Re: LOTR - Deep Throat spills the beans.
>From: Aron Boag boa...@comcast.net
>Date: 11/11/2003 9:17 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <BBD7026A.F926%boa...@comcast.net>

aron, to bag on a theme because some of the games threw balls down the middle
is stupid. it is all you cling to, "the game fires balls down the middle!"
gimmie a break. yeah, so i am supposed to believe that you were playing afm on
test, with designers watching, and afm was hurling balls straight down the gut.
ok, whatever, BUT HEY! the game was on test. you mean to tell me all these
current owners have a mb and afm just to watch their games hurl balls sdtm?
yeah, ok. you are really reaching on your arguements. trying to tell me that
afm or mb are not in the top 20 classic pins of all time is just idiotic. kinda
like saying nbasb is worth owning because you have not beat chicago yet. lol!

(you still going to play pin this friday? same time same place ; )

Aron Boag

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 19:07:452003-11-12
till
On 11/12/03 11:12 AM, in article
20031112111256...@mb-m11.aol.com, "Pinlicious"
<pinli...@aol.com> wrote:

> aron, to bag on a theme because some of the games threw balls down the middle
> is stupid. it is all you cling to, "the game fires balls down the middle!"
> gimmie a break. yeah, so i am supposed to believe that you were playing afm on
> test, with designers watching, and afm was hurling balls straight down the
> gut.

No, but I brought it to the attention of people at WMS that very night.
Fair enough?

I've never bagged on the theme of AFM, in fact, just the opposite. I've
given it credit for the humor and yes, it qualifies in the "B-Grade Alien
Film From The 60s" category. The design flaw is my biggest beef, and quite
frankly, even when the scoop is behaving perfectly, it's still not exactly a
mind-blowing game to me. We may just like different things.

> ok, whatever, BUT HEY! the game was on test. you mean to tell me all these
> current owners have a mb and afm just to watch their games hurl balls sdtm?
> yeah, ok. you are really reaching on your arguements. trying to tell me that
> afm or mb are not in the top 20 classic pins of all time is just idiotic.

Not at all. First, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: brand-new,
properly set up games were doing the very same thing. It's a chronic
problem, and I'm critical of all games this way. Shadow's easy-to-break
Phurba diverters and Battlefield kicker, Indy's Path of Adventure and Start
Mode hole, and that's just naming a few. In this case, however, you're
talking about an *especially* grievious error in that, inevitably, you're
going to lose a ball or two out of it. All those other mechanical faults
don't cause ball drains. These do. Live with that.

More than that, though, is the fact that, loving AFM like you do, you're
willing to put Monster Bash in the top twenty pins of all time? Are you
flippin' *kidding* me? Even if that game didn't have the *stupid* design
flaw, it's a headlining performer at Yawnapalooza. What absolutely boring
software, ho-hum multiballs, uselessly-different wizard modes (ick...), and
the ever-so-traditional lousy Phantom Flip. The game's easy, it's boring,
and while it may look and sound good, it doesn't even have the panache of
Strobe Multiball or the better humor of AFM to back it up. At least AFM is
harder, with some cool touches, but Monster Bash? Sounds like somebody's
been hitting the Detroit crack themselves, eh?



> kinda
> like saying nbasb is worth owning because you have not beat chicago yet. lol!

Which I've now done, and now I'm wanting to play the game linked. I admit:
I just don't want to get rid of this one. I'd rather just keep acquiring
new pins than get rid of the ones I have. I *like* having a big collection,
even if I can't keep them all in one place. So sue me. ;)



> (you still going to play pin this friday? same time same place ; )

Kinda planning on it. He's cleaning his pins tomorrow (they were *slightly*
dirty today, and a flasher or two were out on T3), but I stopped by today to
play and promptly got spanked by both T3 and Monopoly (whose flippers could
still use a solid rebuilding). Can't remember the last time I got that
whipped around.

What time is the "same time" though?


Aron (yeah, MB is an all-time great, right up there with Shaq Attaq, right?)

Manic

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 19:20:062003-11-12
till


"Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BBD83581.FB85%boa...@comcast.net...


> On 11/12/03 11:12 AM, in article
> 20031112111256...@mb-m11.aol.com, "Pinlicious"
> <pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > aron, to bag on a theme because some of the games threw balls down the
middle
> > is stupid. it is all you cling to, "the game fires balls down the
middle!"
> > gimmie a break. yeah, so i am supposed to believe that you were playing
afm on
> > test, with designers watching, and afm was hurling balls straight down
the
> > gut.
>
> No, but I brought it to the attention of people at WMS that very night.
> Fair enough?

> > Not at all. First, I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
brand-new,
> properly set up games were doing the very same thing. It's a chronic
> problem,

A *chronic* problem. Y'know I assume you are a pinball geek and
apparently also a grammar geek but I never thought you were
unintelligent. Bear with me... this is not an insulting post ;-)

Yet if the AFM scoop was a *chronic* problem there would be
LOADS of people complaining about it since 1996 in rgp. Yet a search
reveals it's really only *YOU* that has been yammering about this.
I have NEVER had this happen on any route machine and I've
played some nasty ones.

An intelligent person would say "hmmm... since nobody but me is
whining about this... maybe it's just ME" ;-)

(I've been in the position myself before and had to concede that
it WAS more me than others... so I'm not trying to be
insulting).

Does this concept make ANY sense to you whatsoever...?
I'm trying to judge how rational you can be. Please don't
disappoint me ;-)


Aron Boag

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 20:08:022003-11-12
till
On 11/12/03 7:20 PM, in article W6Asb.35940$E9.3...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net,
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> "Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:BBD83581.FB85%boa...@comcast.net...
>> On 11/12/03 11:12 AM, in article
>> 20031112111256...@mb-m11.aol.com, "Pinlicious"
>> <pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> aron, to bag on a theme because some of the games threw balls down the
> middle
>>> is stupid. it is all you cling to, "the game fires balls down the
> middle!"
>>> gimmie a break. yeah, so i am supposed to believe that you were playing
> afm on
>>> test, with designers watching, and afm was hurling balls straight down
> the
>>> gut.
>>
>> No, but I brought it to the attention of people at WMS that very night.
>> Fair enough?
>>> Not at all. First, I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
> brand-new,
>> properly set up games were doing the very same thing. It's a chronic
>> problem,
>
> A *chronic* problem. Y'know I assume you are a pinball geek and
> apparently also a grammar geek but I never thought you were
> unintelligent. Bear with me... this is not an insulting post ;-)

"Chronic" in *my* experiences. And let's be realistic here, too: Monster
Bash is also documented as having this problem (amongst several others),
right?



> Yet if the AFM scoop was a *chronic* problem there would be
> LOADS of people complaining about it since 1996 in rgp. Yet a search
> reveals it's really only *YOU* that has been yammering about this.
> I have NEVER had this happen on any route machine and I've
> played some nasty ones.

In fairness, I wasn't on RGP in 1996, or I would have been screaming my head
off about it. I've had it happen to me lots of times, although oddly, not
in recent days.



> An intelligent person would say "hmmm... since nobody but me is
> whining about this... maybe it's just ME" ;-)

I can understand why you'd say this...



> (I've been in the position myself before and had to concede that
> it WAS more me than others... so I'm not trying to be
> insulting).

...and I'm not taking it in an insulting way...

> Does this concept make ANY sense to you whatsoever...?
> I'm trying to judge how rational you can be. Please don't
> disappoint me ;-)

...and yes, the concept *does* make sense to me. I've admitted in the past
when I've made mistakes, or rushed to judgment. However, with regard to
this particular issue, I feel that if I stopped complaining about that
particular design stupidity, that it might be repeated, yet again. I'd like
to think that my bitching had at least some small part of having AP's scoop
shoot that ball onto the *same* side of the playfield. I'm probably wrong
on that particular design example (the AP one), but I'd like to *think* that
I'm right. ;)

More than that, to claim that "it's just me" would be to negate the
too-frequent experiences which I used to have with AFM and MB (and still
have with MB in particular). I refuse to back down on this issue because it
*did* happen to me, many times, on many occasions, on many different
machines, at many different locations. One place in particular (Marvin's)
had *many* people complaining about said issue, and there just wasn't
anything that they could do to fix it, until eventually the scoop broke off,
which *completely* sucked.

Sorry, Manic. I just can't make that journey into
Ignoreitanditgoesawayville with you. It must be a nice place, because lots
of folks seem to like it, but I'd rather hold fast to what's true, and
*experience* doesn't lie.

Now I ask *you*: do you understand what *I'm* saying?


Aron

cody chunn

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 21:06:492003-11-12
till
I have experienced the SDTM draino-matic SOL eject on many route games. It
is a terrible defect. As well, the same problem exists on MB. Also, the
DracTrack kills most attempts at the right orbit. I agree with Aron that AFM
is a poopie game, but I rather like MB, having a certain affinity for
Universal Monsters. I think both are over-priced.

"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:W6Asb.35940$E9.3...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...

Aron Boag

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 21:58:582003-11-12
till
On 11/12/03 9:06 PM, in article 04ydncgIucG...@comcast.com, "cody
chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I have experienced the SDTM draino-matic SOL eject on many route games. It
> is a terrible defect. As well, the same problem exists on MB. Also, the
> DracTrack kills most attempts at the right orbit. I agree with Aron that AFM
> is a poopie game, but I rather like MB, having a certain affinity for
> Universal Monsters. I think both are over-priced.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!?!?!? You mean I'm not the only one? Not possible!
It's only happened to *me*, Cody! Haven't you been listening to the AFM
Cult? Just drink the Kool-Aid... ;)

And there you have it, folks: proof positive that I'm not just making this
crap up, it *isn't* "just me", and I'm not without my reasons.

Remember the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the *game*."? Well, I do.
Although I'm now pretty sure that MB is more hated by me than AFM is, on
several fronts.

Feel free to disagree, but I'm not the only one who has experienced this
design flaw and its effects, and I'm going to continue to call 'em as I see
'em. Thanks, Cody.


Aron ("AFM: 'still crappy after all of these years...'" [with apologies to
Paul Simon])

someotherguy

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 22:12:452003-11-12
till
AFM Cult? Man, you really are going off the deep end with this. Kool-Aid and
all. Yeah, this "problem" happens to all of us AFM owners, and we're ALL lying
about it, just in an apparent vain attempt to drive you insane...

(or maybe it HAS worked! muahahahahah etc.)

Richard

Manic

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 22:29:082003-11-12
till
Wow... ONE other guy chimes in. Hey maybe you find a couple
more to describe this CHRONIC problem that has spoiled ALL
the AFM's for the past 7 years. I would think there would be
LOADS and LOADS of complaints about this CHRONIC
problem.

Sorry but a search in google still shows you to be the main
ranter since you first appeared... and that doesn't lie.

"But since it happened to ME... and gee Cody... then ALL
AFM's must have this problem and it's a CRIME. A
stinkin' CRIME I tell you" ;-)

Remember the guy standing on the street corner with the sign that
says "Repent as the world ends tomorrow" ALSO will yammer
endlessly about how he is right and the rest of the world is wrong.

See a future for yourself on the street corner do ya?

--
*Because John Shields HATES to see people's collections:*
M.M, C.V, N.G.G, T.O.M, J.Y, N.F, J.D,
Shad*w, C.F.T.B.L, T.A.F, A.F.M, F.T, W.W

"Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:BBD85DA2.FC12%boa...@comcast.net...

Iain Odlin

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 22:58:222003-11-12
till
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:20:06 GMT, "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com>
wrote:


>Yet if the AFM scoop was a *chronic* problem there would be
>LOADS of people complaining about it since 1996 in rgp. Yet a search
>reveals it's really only *YOU* that has been yammering about this.

Then your search wasn't good enough. I have posted about it (od...@reed.edu
and i_o...@hotmail.com), as have several others. Try using a search string
broader than "Boag (AFM|mars) scoop"...

>I have NEVER had this happen on any route machine and I've
>played some nasty ones.

Congratulations! That and a buck 50 might get you a cup of coffee. I, on the
other hand, can point to two AFMs and one MB on location in my area _right
now_ that have misaligned scoops that throw the ball SDTM _every_ _single_
_time_.

Just because you personally haven't experienced something doesn't mean it
doesn't happen or isn't a problem.

Do you go around telling people who lost their houses to fire, tornado,
hurricane, flood or some other disaster that they must not be having any
trouble because your house is fine?

-Iain

cody chunn

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:01:052003-11-12
till
The design flaw is inherent in *every* model of that title. With enough
plays, the scoop *will* break or bend back and eject SDTM. In home use, this
may never happen. In commercial use, unattended, they *all* will. I don't
feel the need to berate the games repeatedly for the problem, but the
problem exists on every one there is. If the failure has not occurred yet,
it simply has not had enough play, or it has been modified.

"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:8UCsb.36118$E9.1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...

Manic

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:12:592003-11-12
till

"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ivv5rvcun94gkm225...@4ax.com...

No but I don't post wildly claiming EVERY house in the area
IS or WILL be on fire or flooded.

THAT is the difference

So because there have been a *handful* of people that have
had this happen... this justifies him yammering on endlessly
about it in his every mention of AFM??

With such a problem I'm surprised people aren't just giving the
things away ;-)

>
> -Iain


Manic

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:23:532003-11-12
till


"cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:W6WdnRGLRvK...@comcast.com...


> The design flaw is inherent in *every* model of that title. With enough
> plays, the scoop *will* break or bend back and eject SDTM. In home use,
this
> may never happen. In commercial use, unattended, they *all* will.

Gee that sounds like virtually ANY pinball title. There is an AFM
that is at a college near me and it has been on 24 hrs a day...
seemingly since 1997 and the scoop *still* hasn't failed.

But this applies to any title... left alone something will fail. TZ
clock, trough sensor, etc... TOM left ramp cracks as target
falls apart etc.

I don't
> feel the need to berate the games repeatedly for the problem,

Well there's the rub... I get tired of hearing the same sad song about
a problem that MOST people haven't experienced. The guy is like
a broken record or a drunk at a bar that keeps repeating
some silly problem that ONLY MATTERS TO THEM but doesn't
have the introspection to realize it.

Even when people *gently* ask them to consider their rant - they
puff out their chest and yell that it is their RIGHT to keep
endlessly boring the crap out of everyone with the same
comments verbatim in each post that even *approaches* the
subject.

This is tiresome to the extreme. Maybe you guys love it...

but the
> problem exists on every one there is. If the failure has not occurred yet,
> it simply has not had enough play, or it has been modified.

All machines have parts that will fail with enough play... at the same
college of the AFM there is a TOTAN that has always had problems.
And it gets far less play. So what does this prove?

Krellan

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:25:402003-11-12
till
tr...@midohio.net (trent) wrote in message news:<44584023.03110...@posting.google.com>...
> A clone has already been made. SST. Check the shots. Check the rules.

I don't think Starship Troopers is a clone of MM at all.

There's a great-condition SST nearby, and I play it fairly often. It
is my second favorite Sega game of all, behind Frankenstein.

SST plays a lot like Jurassic Park, I think, with its focus on hitting
standup targets scattered all over the playfield. The object is to
complete colored groups of monsters, just like JP, to advance.

SST's ramps charge up the Recon Level (random award), which can be
improved by charging it more before it is collected. MM doesn't have
this. MM's random award is completely random, and it is lit by doing
something totally different (hitting targets at the far right).

MM's Castle also doesn't have a parallel in SST. There's the live
fire assault range thing, which is your standard DE/Sega "bash it
repeatedly for Multiball" toy at the center of the game.

I like SST's involvement for player control: after hitting all
monsters, you can choose to immediately start Multiball, or you can
choose to go for the next stage of colored targets in hopes of getting
a better Multiball next time. The closest thing in MM is the
Multiball Madness: you can choose to collect Multiball early, or keep
playing in hopes of collecting a better Multiball later. These are
similar, but the way you go about collecting things and making
decisions is totally different, so I can't call them the same.

Want a clone of MM? Play MB or CC :) But not SST.

Josh
pinball=at=krellan=dot=com

Aron Boag

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:33:492003-11-12
till
On 11/12/03 10:29 PM, in article 8UCsb.36118$E9.1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net,
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Wow... ONE other guy chimes in. Hey maybe you find a couple
> more to describe this CHRONIC problem that has spoiled ALL
> the AFM's for the past 7 years. I would think there would be
> LOADS and LOADS of complaints about this CHRONIC
> problem.

Actually, you're not reading my posts. I've already stated, just an hour
ago or so, that the AFM SDTM problem hasn't happened to me in recent days.
True, I hardly ever play the game, but still, it's not been recent.



> Sorry but a search in google still shows you to be the main
> ranter since you first appeared... and that doesn't lie.

However, if you go back and read *your* post, you attributed *all* previous
rantings or complaints about this problem to me, and me alone. Guess you
were wrong on that point, too, eh? There's a difference between being the
*main* complainer, and the *only* one. Just because I'm vocal doesn't make
me alone.

I'd be only too happy to claim the title. I truly am the Leader of the AFM
Distain Movement!"

Your argument loses some *serious* footing when you look at the way I praise
Medieval Madness, though. Odd that, wouldn't you say? Or it is just that
the design was improved (amongst many other aspects), and I recognize that?
It'd be easy to just say "Oh, he hates Brian Eddy games.", but I don't. I
enjoy Shadow and love MM. Or "Oh, he hates Lyman." Again, that's false, as
I think MM's software is spot-on fun, and I do give credit to certain
elements of AFM that I enjoy, such as Strobe Multiball.

Why can't you just accept that I have my opinion, backed up by my
experiences with perfectly good (and even brand new) machines, affirmed by
other people (both RGPers and non-RGPers alike), which differs from your
opinion and experiences? What do I have to *gain* by holding fast and
taking all the flack that I do? I really don't mind it, but it's not like I
get off on it or anything.

Don't like it? Oh well. The world just keeps on a'turnin...



> "But since it happened to ME... and gee Cody... then ALL
> AFM's must have this problem and it's a CRIME. A
> stinkin' CRIME I tell you" ;-)

This is a ludicrous argument, and even *you* know that. I can play any
given Shadow, and if I happen to come upon one that was just fully shopped
and/or repaired yesterday, I'm not going to have *any* of the problems
associated with Shadow, such as bad Phurba diverters, broken Battlefield
kicker, Inner Sanctum wear, and such. Wow! Must be a completely perfect
game as a whole! And if I happen to play an Indiana Jones with a
fully-functioning Mode Start hole, it's perfect design!

Bull. Just because you can make a game completely wonderful after a full
shop job (and/or repairs/mods, and whatever else you have to do that goes
above and beyond the call of reason) doesn't mean that everything is
therefore well-designed. I take exception to many different design
problems, both on games I like and dislike, and you can google for *those*
if you like. Look under IJ, Shadow, MB, AFM, RCT, and that's just right off
the top of my head.

"It's great because it's fixable, and it doesn't do it *every* time!" is
*not* a hallmark of good design, period. When things *consistently* are
problematic in a given title, I've got to believe that better design was
warranted. On good games, it takes away from some of the joy of the game;
it tarnishes it. On bad games, it makes the other faults of the game just
seem that much more apparent, glaring even. However, the main design
problem is still the biggest head-shaker.



> Remember the guy standing on the street corner with the sign that
> says "Repent as the world ends tomorrow" ALSO will yammer
> endlessly about how he is right and the rest of the world is wrong.

Yes, I remember him. Amongst other things, he seems to like to ask for
tests to determine how "rational" someone else is, without being all that
rational himself. And he has a *very* poor memory to go along with his
obstinate attitude.

Not that I'm referring to *you*, of course.



> See a future for yourself on the street corner do ya?

Only if there's an AFM-burning party. I'll be the one front-and-center with
the sign reading "No More Bad Scoop Design!".


Aron (second sign: "No More Scoops That Eat Up The Playfield!")

Iain Odlin

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:38:212003-11-12
till
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 04:12:59 GMT, "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>No but I don't post wildly claiming EVERY house in the area
>IS or WILL be on fire or flooded.

You don't need to, although you certainly could. Entropy, sooner or later,
in some form or another, will destroy each and every house that exists
today.

Similarly, when the welds on AFM and MB's scoops break (and they all will,
eventually, unless serious steps are taken to prevent it), the 'failure mode
behaviour' is to throw balls SDTM. They all do this. Sooner or later.

>So because there have been a *handful* of people that have
>had this happen...

A handful who have made a stink about it. As I said, I know of two AFMs and
an MB locally (plus two more MBs in New Hampshire) that all do this. That's
five in a fifty mile radius of me _that I know about_. So, that's five more
pin owners...

How many do you need before you don't consider it a "handful"?

>this justifies him yammering on endlessly
>about it in his every mention of AFM??

For him, certainly.

Does your unwillingness to accept that more than a "handful" of AFMs have
(or will have) scoop problems justify your counter-yammering on the subject?

[Here's a thought for you: Don't read Aron's AFM rants! Get a modern news
reader that can check a post for the words "Aron" and "AFM" and have it
delete any that contain both.]

>With such a problem I'm surprised people aren't just giving the
>things away ;-)

No, you're not. For you, it's a fun pin and you "know" why it goes for
$3000.

For my part, I like AFM well enough. That doesn't change the fact that the
scoop was a bad design.

-Iain
"Monster Bash," on the other hand: Pure and utter tripe.

Manic

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:45:252003-11-12
till
When you use hyperbole like "chronic" in describing a
problem it makes you look like someone shouting "fire"
in a movie theatre. Obviously the problem is not NEAR
"chronic" as the game is extremely sought after and there
are maybe a handful of people that have ever mentioned the
problem.
Maybe if you toned down your rhetoric to actually match
the problem you wouldn't come off as such a "sky is falling"
type of individual ;-)

In conclusion (I hope:)

Aron I have respect for your opinion. I'm just sorry you
can't see how *tiresome* it is for someone to repeat the
SAME thing... over and over... every chance they can when
they see the opportunity in a thread.

If THAT makes no sense to you then... well I'm stumped ;-0


"Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:BBD873DD.FC48%boa...@comcast.net...

Manic

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:50:442003-11-12
till


"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:5n16rv8ku4u3uenn0...@4ax.com...


> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 04:12:59 GMT, "Manic"
<manicmusic...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >No but I don't post wildly claiming EVERY house in the area
> >IS or WILL be on fire or flooded.
>
> You don't need to, although you certainly could. Entropy, sooner or
later,
> in some form or another, will destroy each and every house that exists
> today.
>

Please.


> Similarly, when the welds on AFM and MB's scoops break (and they all
will,
> eventually, unless serious steps are taken to prevent it), the 'failure
mode
> behaviour' is to throw balls SDTM. They all do this. Sooner or later.

Yup. TZ clocks... CV Ringmaster's... etc...etc... this is certainly
meaningless.

>
> >So because there have been a *handful* of people that have
> >had this happen...
>
> A handful who have made a stink about it. As I said, I know of two AFMs
and
> an MB locally (plus two more MBs in New Hampshire) that all do this.
That's
> five in a fifty mile radius of me _that I know about_. So, that's five
more
> pin owners...
>
> How many do you need before you don't consider it a "handful"?

A lot more than five out of a 3000 plus run.

>
> >this justifies him yammering on endlessly
> >about it in his every mention of AFM??
>
> For him, certainly.
>
> Does your unwillingness to accept that more than a "handful" of AFMs
have
> (or will have) scoop problems justify your counter-yammering on the
subject?
>
> [Here's a thought for you: Don't read Aron's AFM rants! Get a modern
news
> reader that can check a post for the words "Aron" and "AFM" and have it
> delete any that contain both.]

I hate to do that though. I had hoped that he would see that
just because a post had the letters "AFM" in it... he wouldn't
need to do the tired song and dance.
I may have failed in this endeavor but I *did* try ;-)

>
> >With such a problem I'm surprised people aren't just giving the
> >things away ;-)
>
> No, you're not. For you, it's a fun pin and you "know" why it goes for
> $3000.
>
> For my part, I like AFM well enough. That doesn't change the fact that
the
> scoop was a bad design.
>
> -Iain
> "Monster Bash," on the other hand: Pure and utter tripe.


Ahhh I always love your posts Mr. Sunshine ;-)


Aron Boag

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:54:142003-11-12
till
On 11/12/03 11:23 PM, in article tHDsb.32968$n6.1...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net,
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> "cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:W6WdnRGLRvK...@comcast.com...
>> The design flaw is inherent in *every* model of that title. With enough
>> plays, the scoop *will* break or bend back and eject SDTM. In home use,
> this
>> may never happen. In commercial use, unattended, they *all* will.
>
> Gee that sounds like virtually ANY pinball title. There is an AFM
> that is at a college near me and it has been on 24 hrs a day...
> seemingly since 1997 and the scoop *still* hasn't failed.

When you've been playing it. Have they made any major modifications to the
scoop? Have they had to replace it? How many times? Reinforcements
necessary? Is the playfield area around the scoop eaten up?



> But this applies to any title... left alone something will fail. TZ
> clock, trough sensor, etc... TOM left ramp cracks as target
> falls apart etc.

Yeah, your point? I'd take these things to task, too. I have a good bit
more derision for the AFM/MB scoops since this particular problem actually
causes you to *lose* the ball in play. This bugs me to no end.



> I don't
>> feel the need to berate the games repeatedly for the problem,
>
> Well there's the rub... I get tired of hearing the same sad song about
> a problem that MOST people haven't experienced. The guy is like
> a broken record or a drunk at a bar that keeps repeating
> some silly problem that ONLY MATTERS TO THEM but doesn't
> have the introspection to realize it.

And as exemplified by the others posting, apparently, it matters to more
than just me. You done now?



> Even when people *gently* ask them to consider their rant - they
> puff out their chest and yell that it is their RIGHT to keep
> endlessly boring the crap out of everyone with the same
> comments verbatim in each post that even *approaches* the
> subject.

Well, you "gently" asked me to consider it, and I did, answering in a
reasonable tone, with decent reasons. You got cocky in response, and you
think that's going to make the AFM/MB design problem go away? No, it just
makes your rose-colored glasses just all that much more apparent.



> This is tiresome to the extreme. Maybe you guys love it...

I'm not the one who instigated/continued the conversation. Need me to
google that for you?



> but the
>> problem exists on every one there is. If the failure has not occurred yet,
>> it simply has not had enough play, or it has been modified.
>
> All machines have parts that will fail with enough play... at the same
> college of the AFM there is a TOTAN that has always had problems.
> And it gets far less play. So what does this prove?

I'm familiar with the concept of wear and tear over time. You don't find me
complaining about the bad design of playfield rollover switches when they go
bad. However, in this particular example of design, we're talking about
brand new machines, and machines that are properly cared for, exhibiting
problems basically from the start. What more is there to prove?

In other instances of design problems, updates were sometimes available.
ToM's center ramp eventually had a protector installed at the factory. CV
had ball trap plastics available to get rid of that problem. That's just
two examples. Apparently, that's not the case with AFM.

I'm sorry that your favorite game has a design flaw. But *saying* that it's
all in my head until you turn blue in the face doesn't make it go away.
Neither does "questioning" how "rational" I am.

"Gently" my eye.


Aron

someotherguy

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:57:122003-11-12
till
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 04:12:59 GMT, "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>With such a problem I'm surprised people aren't just giving the
>things away ;-)

If only! I'd have a MINT (albeit horribly flawed in re: STDM) one instead of
the slightly worn one that I've got now. Not that I love it any less, mind you.

Richard

Iain Odlin

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:59:062003-11-12
till
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 04:23:53 GMT, "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>All machines have parts that will fail with enough play... at the same
>college of the AFM there is a TOTAN that has always had problems.
>And it gets far less play. So what does this prove?

That you are extremely adroit at intentionally missing the point and
introducing straw-man arguments.

-Iain

someotherguy

oläst,
12 nov. 2003 23:59:502003-11-12
till
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 04:50:44 GMT, "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>> [Here's a thought for you: Don't read Aron's AFM rants! Get a modern
>news
>> reader that can check a post for the words "Aron" and "AFM" and have it
>> delete any that contain both.]
>
>I hate to do that though. I had hoped that he would see that
>just because a post had the letters "AFM" in it... he wouldn't
>need to do the tired song and dance.
>I may have failed in this endeavor but I *did* try ;-)

Hey Manic, you mean like you do whenever there's a post with ToTAN in it?
Sorry.. couldn't resist. It was just waaaaaay too easy. ; )

Richard

Manic

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 00:12:482003-11-13
till

"someotherguy" <someotherguy@SPAM_SUCKSsomeotherplace.com> wrote in message
news:mr36rvgsnhiuonlqd...@4ax.com...

Now that's not true Richard... I have *tried* to change ;-) Yes
I did recently backpedal but there was maybe 6 - 8 months where
I saw the title and didn't comment. Didn't even feel the need and I
was proud of myself - but you are right to call me on the carpet
for that last transgression ;-)


metallik

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 00:34:262003-11-13
till
> "Chronic" in *my* experiences. And let's be realistic here, too: Monster
> Bash is also documented as having this problem (amongst several others),
> right?

For the record, I have run across one location MB that liked to fling
balls SDTM. I have never run across a simlar AFM.

Just FYI to those keeping score :)

> ...and yes, the concept *does* make sense to me. I've admitted in the past
> when I've made mistakes, or rushed to judgment. However, with regard to
> this particular issue, I feel that if I stopped complaining about that
> particular design stupidity, that it might be repeated, yet again. I'd like

How can it be stupid when it works perfectly fine in everyone's game?

A design stupidity is something that needs to be re-engineered to make
it work right. No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops. They just
work right.

If you hate cross-playfield-shooting scoops, I expect to hear complaints
of Whitewater's mine hole. THAT one is evil! :)

metallik

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 00:41:542003-11-13
till
> And there you have it, folks: proof positive that I'm not just making this
> crap up, it *isn't* "just me", and I'm not without my reasons.

So how much did ya pay Cody to post that?? ;-)

> Remember the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the *game*."? Well, I do.
> Although I'm now pretty sure that MB is more hated by me than AFM is, on
> several fronts.

And where does lovely CP fall into these rankings? :)

Iain Odlin

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 00:45:572003-11-13
till
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:34:26 -0500, metallik <meta...@fuse.removethis.net>
wrote:

>No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops.

*BZZT!* Wrong! Thanks for playing.

http://www.mantisamusements.com/afmweld.htm

They've got ones for MB and TZ, too.

-Iain

metallik

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 00:49:392003-11-13
till
> eventually, unless serious steps are taken to prevent it), the 'failure mode
> behaviour' is to throw balls SDTM. They all do this. Sooner or later.

If AFM's breaks sufficiently, the 'failure mode' is to throw the ball
straight up into the glass... *POW* What fun! ;)

Aron Boag

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 00:57:002003-11-13
till
On 11/13/03 12:41 AM, in article 3fb319a2$0$60154$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net,
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:

>> And there you have it, folks: proof positive that I'm not just making this
>> crap up, it *isn't* "just me", and I'm not without my reasons.
>
> So how much did ya pay Cody to post that?? ;-)

That's the joy of being righteous. I don't *have* to pay to have the truth
come out.



>> Remember the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the *game*."? Well, I do.
>> Although I'm now pretty sure that MB is more hated by me than AFM is, on
>> several fronts.
>
> And where does lovely CP fall into these rankings? :)

An interesting question. How does "Insanely boring toyfest that makes TOTAN
look like the best pin ever" compare with "Horribly flawed in design, yet
with fun aspects"? I'll have to ponder that.


Aron

Aron Boag

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:08:002003-11-13
till
On 11/13/03 12:34 AM, in article 3fb317e2$0$60154$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net,
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:

>> "Chronic" in *my* experiences. And let's be realistic here, too: Monster
>> Bash is also documented as having this problem (amongst several others),
>> right?
>
> For the record, I have run across one location MB that liked to fling
> balls SDTM. I have never run across a simlar AFM.

Okay, but the facts are already in evidence that this *does* happen to more
people than just me.

Here's an even *more* interesting question: how many AFM/MB playfields have
you seen on location wherein the scoop area is eaten up all around that
area? Yeah, *that's* right. Try keeping up with *that* number. Hope you
don't need your fingers and toes to keep score here, because you'll run out
pretty darned quick. *Great* design! ;)



> Just FYI to those keeping score :)
>
>> ...and yes, the concept *does* make sense to me. I've admitted in the past
>> when I've made mistakes, or rushed to judgment. However, with regard to
>> this particular issue, I feel that if I stopped complaining about that
>> particular design stupidity, that it might be repeated, yet again. I'd like
>
> How can it be stupid when it works perfectly fine in everyone's game?

Again, I want to emphasize the problem with the word "everyone's", here.
Unless you happen to know of a certain individual whose name is "everyone",
this statement is wrong. If you want to qualify it by saying "most", I
believe that I'd *still* argue with that.



> A design stupidity is something that needs to be re-engineered to make
> it work right. No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops. They just
> work right.

I am going to make a serious effort to try to find local AFMs and take
digital pictures of their scoop areas. Remember, we're not talking about
reinforced, replaced, modded, or otherwise "helped" scoops...we're talking
about straight out of the factory, here.

If putting fricking *nails* and *screws* into the playfield is part and
parcel of what makes these things "work right", then yes, it's the best
darned scoop design I've ever seen.



> If you hate cross-playfield-shooting scoops, I expect to hear complaints
> of Whitewater's mine hole. THAT one is evil! :)

I certainly don't like the fact that they cause wear on the playfields, but
I've never heard of anyone whose scoop shot the ball *directly* SDTM on
White Water. Yes, I've had the scoop shoot the ball out and hit the flipper
and/or the lane guide, and immediately go down, but never SDTM without
hitting anything, or at least the *possibility* of hitting anything.

It's never happened with my WCS, either, or any WCS I've ever played.
Starting to see why I think it's a title-specific problem?


Aron

Aron Boag

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:11:332003-11-13
till
On 11/13/03 12:49 AM, in article 3fb31b73$0$60154$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net,
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, burned it in protest. If that's
what you call fun, then have at it. Grab yourself a MB and let the ball
pound the bejeebers out of that one, too.


Aron

Aron Boag

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:12:452003-11-13
till
On 11/13/03 12:45 AM, in article am66rvk6aj0ecov9b...@4ax.com,
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote:

He slices, he dices, he makes julienne fries!


Aron (ouch, that's *got* to leave a mark...)

metallik

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:13:232003-11-13
till
>>No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops.
>
> *BZZT!* Wrong! Thanks for playing.
>
> http://www.mantisamusements.com/afmweld.htm
>
> They've got ones for MB and TZ, too.

Hmmm.. I'd say that's more of a slight improvement rather than a
re-engineering (they just added more weldpoints - didn't change the
design - it still fires across the playfield) - BUT it *was* changed, so
point taken. I need to get one of those, if only because they're
shinier than mine :)

Aron Boag

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:15:172003-11-13
till
On 11/13/03 12:45 AM, in article am66rvk6aj0ecov9b...@4ax.com,
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote:

You know, I'm kind of surprised that one doesn't exist for Safe Cracker too,
since it also exhibits this behavior, even on the best HUO games.


Aron

metallik

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:16:432003-11-13
till
>>And where does lovely CP fall into these rankings? :)
>
> An interesting question. How does "Insanely boring toyfest that makes TOTAN
> look like the best pin ever" compare with "Horribly flawed in design, yet
> with fun aspects"? I'll have to ponder that.

Not much to ponder. AFM can be fixed to always deliver the ball to the
left flipper. Whether it sucked out of the factory or not, let's judge
gameplay on a fully-working game. You can't fix basic, rotten gameplay
(Pub) ;)

Now, let's discuss Popeye...

-Larry (who is slowly bumping AFM up Aron's ladder by insidiously
wedging crappy pins underneath it :)

Aron Boag

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:22:082003-11-13
till
On 11/13/03 1:13 AM, in article 3fb32103$0$60152$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net,
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:

At least you're willing to admit this point. Now, can you go a step further
and ask yourself *why* that change would be necessary?

I honestly have no problem with a scoop that fires the ball across the
playfield *in principle*, but *in practice* it had better be shown to do
this reliably all day and all night, with only the *freakest* problem that
*occasionally* pops up. Nothing's perfect, after all. These scoops'
problems were more than freaky, occasional problems. Add to that the fact
that the playfield tends to be eaten alive around these scoops, and you're
not going to be hearing how great the design is from *me*.


Aron

metallik

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:26:212003-11-13
till
>>For the record, I have run across one location MB that liked to fling
>>balls SDTM. I have never run across a simlar AFM.
>
> Okay, but the facts are already in evidence that this *does* happen to more
> people than just me.

Won't argue there.. I can't say what others have experienced, only me. I
will also say I haven't seen many AFM's, and the one I bought (right out
of a bar) wasn't a good example because the flippers could barely make
the SOL hole when it was on location :) The balls that dribbled in from
the three dead jets did shoot right to the flipper though.

> Here's an even *more* interesting question: how many AFM/MB playfields have
> you seen on location wherein the scoop area is eaten up all around that
> area? Yeah, *that's* right. Try keeping up with *that* number. Hope you

All of them. THAT is a design flaw. I will also agree the scoop in
RFM/MB sucks. The SOL I can live with, but that other scoop... blech!
I cringe whenever I shoot to the right side of it on my RFM and hear the
ball just grinding into the wood.. 2 layers of mylar and a protector
and it STILL sounds bad.

Thing is, I judge gamplay and design completely seperately. RFM's scoop
sucks donkey nuts indeed, but RFM is still a very entertaining game to
me. To be honest, I rarely ever shoot *for* the scoop while playing,
because I hate the thing.. But I get plenty of fun from the rest of the
game. Bonus Wave and Mothership Multiballs just rock! The modes are
fun and with 1.5 it has some good flow if you open the loops. I get
enough scoop awards from rebounds or the few times I need to shoot it
(EBs, Martian Attacks). A game can be designed badly from a parts
longevity standpoint and still be fun to play. SDTM isn't fun, though,
so a SOL that fires SDTM becomes a gameplay liability. I just haven't
had the displeasure of playing a game that way yet.

> Again, I want to emphasize the problem with the word "everyone's", here.
> Unless you happen to know of a certain individual whose name is "everyone",
> this statement is wrong. If you want to qualify it by saying "most", I
> believe that I'd *still* argue with that.

Well, it works fine in every game I've played.. that's about all I can say.


metallik

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:31:262003-11-13
till
> He slices, he dices, he makes julienne fries!

Not a chance. Adding more welds and using shinier steel is hardly
reengineering. It's simply making the thing out of better materials.
Not that Kerry's scoop is bad.. just that it's the same thing, just
built better.

Re-engineered to me would be something that shot the ball to the right
flipper, or delivered the ball to the playfield like TZ's slot (U-shape
scoop) for better guaranteed aim.


Aron Boag

oläst,
13 nov. 2003 01:31:402003-11-13
till
On 11/13/03 1:16 AM, in article 3fb321cb$0$60152$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net,
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:

>>> And where does lovely CP fall into these rankings? :)
>>
>> An interesting question. How does "Insanely boring toyfest that makes TOTAN
>> look like the best pin ever" compare with "Horribly flawed in design, yet
>> with fun aspects"? I'll have to ponder that.
>
> Not much to ponder. AFM can be fixed to always deliver the ball to the
> left flipper. Whether it sucked out of the factory or not, let's judge
> gameplay on a fully-working game. You can't fix basic, rotten gameplay
> (Pub) ;)

Well now, I can't argue with good old-fashioned dead-on logic.

Even so, AFM's payoffs aren't all that fun for me. I'm really not that
crazy about Total Annihilation, Martian Attack Multiball, or the stacking
thereof. I do like the standard 3-ball to a degree, but dislike the
"Everything's a jackpot!" idea a good bit (which isn't just inherent to AFM,
but many other titles as well). Still, getting a Super is decently
satisfying, and I've often been overheard to enjoy a nice Strobe Multiball.

However, Rule The Universe blows, and blows badly. Is it even *possible* to
lose? I never have, and it's over *so* quickly. Look, if that's all it's
going to be, then just spot me 7 billion points or so and get it over with
so I can get back to getting multiball going again. A lousy and
all-too-easy payoff for all the work that goes into getting there.



> Now, let's discuss Popeye...

"Sometimes you hurt my head, Pinky."



> -Larry (who is slowly bumping AFM up Aron's ladder by insidiously
> wedging crappy pins underneath it :)

Which made me laugh quite hard. Good job you're doing of it, too.
Certainly, there are worse games out there. Whether there are games out
there with worse design flaws than that one has, I wouldn't be so sure.


Aron