<none>
ABADDON
Saw some UNREAL pinballs today.
Lethal Weapon 3
INCREDIBLE sound. Has a screen up-top, like the others, but it is also an arcade game. You have to grab the pistol and shoot the baddies, perform stunts, fight etc etc.
Seens that the highest points are gotten from stunts, hitting the ramps (left ramp esp) and hitting the loop around the top.
Any other playing tips?
Also saw HOOK
Great game. Same vein as Lethel Weapon. Good sound, lots of flashing lights. Didn't get to play it.
More later.
It's late here in NZ
Cheers
ABADDON
Joel K. Iott
>
>Saw some UNREAL pinballs today.
>
>Lethal Weapon 3
>
>INCREDIBLE sound. Has a screen up-top, like the others, but it is also an arcade game. You have to grab the pistol and shoot the baddies, perform stunts, fight etc etc.
>
>Seens that the highest points are gotten from stunts, hitting the ramps (left ramp esp) and hitting the loop around the top.
>
Lethal Weapon 3 is now in New Zealand ?!?
Did Data East start production, or do they actually beta-test in countries half
way around the world from Chicago?
ObPinball:
Rhetorical question: Why do Data East voices annoy me so much?
Star Trek: "MY GOD MAN WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR????" "SHOOT THE TRANSPORTER!"
LW3: "Ok Ok Ok" "You have NO authority." "Shoot the bad guy!"
Rhetorical answer: Frequency of repetition. Also annoyance factor of voice.
That is, scotty saying "1 million!" doesn't annoy me, but "MY GOD MAN..." does.
Scott Evans
>Rhetorical question: Why do Data East voices annoy me so much?
>Star Trek: "MY GOD MAN WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR????" "SHOOT THE TRANSPORTER!"
>LW3: "Ok Ok Ok" "You have NO authority." "Shoot the bad guy!"
>
>Rhetorical answer: Frequency of repetition. Also annoyance factor of voice.
>That is, scotty saying "1 million!" doesn't annoy me, but "MY GOD
MAN..." does.
"We've got to go back!"
"Back WHERE?"
"Back....to the FUTURE!"
"We've got to go back!"
"Back WHERE?"
"Back....to the FUTURE!"
"We've got to go back!"
"Back WHERE?"
"Back....to the FUTURE!"
"We've got to go back!"
"Back WHERE?"
"Back....to the FUTURE!"
"We've got to go back!"
"Back WHERE?"
"Back....to the FUTURE!"
"We've got to go back!"
"Back WHERE?"
"Back....to the FUTURE!"
"We've got to go back!"
"Back WHERE?"
"Back....to the FUTURE!"
"We've got to go back!"
"Back WHERE?"
"Back....to the FUTURE!"
I rest my case.
s
Phaedrus
>Lethal Weapon 3 is now in New Zealand ?!?
>Did Data East start production, or do they actually beta-test in countries half
>way around the world from Chicago?
Yes, Data East must be producing. At least, a LW3 machine has just
appeared in the local arcade (and I thought'd they given up on DE's... well,
this one may convince them...).
My reaction to LW3: Well, it soundly disproves my comments about HSII
being Data East-like. LW3 is HS2 as Data East would do it (if you've never
seen a HS2 and a LW3 side by side, trust me, they're extremely similar in
layout), and it makes HS2, which is still a good machine despite its flaws,
look positively saintly.
Before I start the DE-slamming in earnest, let me give the devil his due;
the graphics and sound on this machine are indeed impressive. This is one
area that Williams could still learn a great deal from its adversary about.
But graphics and sound will only get you to play a game once; gameplay is
what brings people back. And as usual, LW3 is very weak in the gameplay
department.
Each ball begins with a "skill shot" into a bank of 4 targets, ala
Terminator 2. Unfortunately, on the local machine at least, the force exerted
by the solenoid plunger is so variable that your shot can wind up hitting
any of the four targets (or occasionally missing the bank entirely, or
glancing off without registering), making the "skill shot" an exercise in luck
and futility.
Two of the common complaints about HS2 are the freeway loop not
registering balls passing through and the ball bouncing out of the tunnel
saucer without registering. DE has managed to do Williams one better (insert
heavy sarcasm here) on both of these problems. The loop around the machine
will most certainly register balls passing around it; however, a distressingly
high percentage of the time, said balls will proceed out of the loop, directly
between the flippers, and out of play. And not only does HS2's equivalent to
the tunnel shot (in the same place, with the same layout) also often fail to
catch balls sent its way, it lets balls bounce out in *two* directions, both
out the normal exit path and straight back down the entrance path towards the
flippers.
As in HSII, the left outlane is, er, lethal. However, HS2's kickback at
least has the decency to send the ball to a safe place; LW3's often sends
the ball in a Simpsons-like path straight back down the left outlane again
or out between the flippers. And LW3's right outlane is much more dangerous
than HS2's.
Instead of a shifter, LW3 has a (extremely-ugly-looking) gun trigger.
Like HS2, LW3 is built around the assumption that it's a shame to have that
expensive piece of hardware just sitting there during game play. However,
instead of just having you shift once at predictable times, LW3 sometimes,
and apparently totally at random, puts a "shootout scene" up on the display,
and you're expected to grab the gun and fire five or six shots at the bad
guy, while the ball is still bouncing around in play. My advice: unless
the ball is in an extremely safe place, ignore this entirely; you won't get
bonus points, but it's better than losing the ball even faster than you
normally would on this machine. Further advice: there are no extremely
safe places in LW3.
I recently may have cost myself a friend at Williams, by chastising the
folks there for adding a "secret mode" that rewards people who diddle with the
shifter at odd times by giving them a chance at a few extra million points; my
reasoning was that manufacturers shouldn't encourage the players to wear out
the hardware unnecessarily. (Williams, at least, seems to be becoming
conscious to this; HS2 has a software option that disables the flippers while
the bonus is being counted up, so that people who like to tap as fast as
possible on the buttons during this time don't wear the flippers out any
faster.) Well, there's nothing "secret" about hardware wear in LW3; there's
a "fight mode" that gives you 5 million points if you can tap the flipper
buttons 30 or 40 times in 5 seconds. Come on, DE! In case you haven't
noticed, your flippers aren't the paragon of reliability in the first place;
is it really necessary to bribe your players into wiping them out even faster?
(Speaking of which, the flippers in LW3 are the same lousy "Solid State"
design used in the other recent DE releases.) To my friend at Williams:
accept my humblest apologies.
To tell you how boring I found this game, I only played 3 games ($1
worth), and by the third game I almost regretted collecting an extra ball...
My advice to players: unless you're a DE fanatic, avoid this game.
My advice to arcade owners: there's no point in buying this game--if what
you want is a HS2 clone, just buy HS2.
>Rhetorical question: Why do Data East voices annoy me so much?
>Star Trek: "MY GOD MAN WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR????" "SHOOT THE TRANSPORTER!"
>LW3: "Ok Ok Ok" "You have NO authority." "Shoot the bad guy!"
To make matters worse, in the local arcade, these two machines are right
next to each other! "Shoot the bad guy!" "My God, man, what are you waiting
for?" "Shoot the transporter!" "Okay, okay, okay!" "AAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUGGGHHH!"
(Sorry, that last quote was me. :) )
--
Internet: phae...@u.washington.edu (University of Washington, Seattle)
"If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs,
consider an exciting career as a guillotine operator!"
Joelle Ann Mellon
>Star Trek: "MY GOD MAN WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR????" "SHOOT THE >TRANSPORTER!"
I always wondered about this one myself.
"We have full power! Shoot the Transporter!"
Uh..., let me get this straight, Scotty. I just went half-way around the
galaxy and back to pick up these damn dilithium crystals just so we can
get the transporter working, and when I finally get done and the
transporters working again, you tell me to shoot it? I could have done
that first and saved us all the trouble.....
-Robert Chesnavich
Steve Baumgarten
My reaction to LW3: Well, it soundly disproves my comments about
HSII being Data East-like. LW3 is HS2 as Data East would do it (if
you've never seen a HS2 and a LW3 side by side, trust me, they're
extremely similar in layout), and it makes HS2, which is still a
good machine despite its flaws, look positively saintly.
I felt it was more like T2 than HSII -- Broadway has HSII and LW3 side
by side and a T2 right next to that. The top loop is definitely taken
from HSII, but the rest of the game felt a lot like T2 to me. This is
feel more than layout, though the Database shot is there, as is the
skill shot and the Skull shot. It also has an open playfield, like
T2, rather than HSII's somewhat cluttered lower playfield layout.
Before I start the DE-slamming in earnest, let me give the devil
his due; the graphics and sound on this machine are indeed
impressive. This is one area that Williams could still learn a
great deal from its adversary about. But graphics and sound will
only get you to play a game once; gameplay is what brings people
back. And as usual, LW3 is very weak in the gameplay department.
What little I could hear of the sound impressed me. The graphics are
awesome. The playfield artwork is great, as is the backglass. Nice
job, all around.
Each ball begins with a "skill shot" into a bank of 4 targets, ala
Terminator 2. Unfortunately, on the local machine at least, the
force exerted by the solenoid plunger is so variable that your shot
can wind up hitting any of the four targets (or occasionally
missing the bank entirely, or glancing off without registering),
making the "skill shot" an exercise in luck and futility.
I noticed this, too. Though it was predictable more often than not.
Makes you appreciate T2's skill shot, in any case.
Two of the common complaints about HS2 are the freeway loop not
registering balls passing through and the ball bouncing out of the
tunnel saucer without registering. DE has managed to do Williams
one better (insert heavy sarcasm here) on both of these problems.
The loop around the machine will most certainly register balls
passing around it; however, a distressingly high percentage of the
time, said balls will proceed out of the loop, directly between the
flippers, and out of play. And not only does HS2's equivalent to
the tunnel shot (in the same place, with the same layout) also
often fail to catch balls sent its way, it lets balls bounce out in
*two* directions, both out the normal exit path and straight back
down the entrance path towards the flippers.
Sounds like your game isn't level or perhaps isn't at the correct
angle. This definitely doesn't happen on a level game installed at
the correct angle -- I had very few balls drain down the center for
whatever reason. The left drain was much more of a problem, but then
again, it's designed to be just as vicious as HSII's.
As in HSII, the left outlane is, er, lethal. However, HS2's
kickback at least has the decency to send the ball to a safe place;
LW3's often sends the ball in a Simpsons-like path straight back
down the left outlane again or out between the flippers. And LW3's
right outlane is much more dangerous than HS2's.
Again, something is misadjusted. Our game kicked the ball into the
center bank of targets, where it ended up back in play. There was
never a SIMPSONS-like in-and-out-and-in-and-out sequence.
Instead of a shifter, LW3 has a (extremely-ugly-looking) gun
trigger. Like HS2, LW3 is built around the assumption that it's a
shame to have that expensive piece of hardware just sitting there
during game play. However, instead of just having you shift once
at predictable times, LW3 sometimes, and apparently totally at
random, puts a "shootout scene" up on the display, and you're
expected to grab the gun and fire five or six shots at the bad guy,
while the ball is still bouncing around in play. My advice: unless
the ball is in an extremely safe place, ignore this entirely; you
won't get bonus points, but it's better than losing the ball even
faster than you normally would on this machine. Further advice:
there are no extremely safe places in LW3.
I really like this -- especially since the longer you wait, the more
points you get. Of course, if you wait too long, he shoots you and
you don't get any points. So you can get a quick 1 or 2M points, or
wait and get around 6M. Or wait too long and get nothing.
You don't have to look at the display to aim or anything -- it's all
timing. Sort of like "Shift Gears!" on steroids....
The game is as challenging as it is precisely because there are no
"safe" places to hold on to the ball (see discussion of flippers
below). That's a nice twist for wizards; novices never hold the ball
anyway, so it doesn't matter to them.
"Fight Mode" is pretty good, but I especially liked the target range.
Compared to HSII's really lame video mode, these were all excellent.
I presume that pounding the flipper buttons a few more times in the
course of a game won't make a dramatic difference in terms of overall
wear; the fact that you're hitting the side of the cabinet really hard
shouldn't matter, should it? I guess it depends on whether the
flipper buttons themselves ever fail. But after all, there are plenty
of video games that are designed to have their buttons pounded on, so
it must be possible to design a game with that in mind and not have
the flipper buttons break every few days. We'll see.
(Speaking of which, the flippers in LW3 are the same lousy
"Solid State" design used in the other recent DE releases.) To my
friend at Williams: accept my humblest apologies.
Williams flippers are still head-and-shoulders above DE's, which lack
any sort of "feel". You just slap at the ball a lot and hope it goes
more or less where you aim it. To make matters worse, the flippers
only flip upwards to a flat level (parallel to the ground) position,
making it difficult or impossible to hold the ball and really aim for
shots. Why do I have this feeling that Lyman isn't going to like this
game much... :-)
To tell you how boring I found this game, I only played 3 games ($1
worth), and by the third game I almost regretted collecting an
extra ball...
I wasn't immediately crazy about it, but it started growing on me.
It's certainly a challenging game, and DE's most complex to date. I
played many quarters worth, and watched others play even more. No
one's gotten any really high scores yet, mostly because we haven't
figured out all the rules yet. A rules sheet for LW3 is a must --
maybe we can get started on one in this group once more people have a
chance to play it.
My advice to players: unless you're a DE fanatic, avoid this game.
My advice to arcade owners: there's no point in buying this
game--if what you want is a HS2 clone, just buy HS2.
I'm no DE fan -- HOOK and TIME MACHINE are pretty much the only games
of theirs I ever really liked at all -- but I enjoyed playing LW3 and
look forward to giving it some serious attention next week, sometime
early in the morning when there's no one there and I can actually
*hear* the darn thing. If I owned an arcade, I'd get one for sure, if
only because it's a great license and it's flashy as all hell. DE
sure knows how to pull people in; for anyone in the business, I
suspect that's more than half the battle.
Plus, compare LW3 to a game like BATMAN. BATMAN had great sound and
was a terrific license, but the game itself leaves a lot to be
desired. There's just not that much in there: few targets or goals,
wimpy rules, buggy software. LW3 is very complex, with deep rules,
top-notch software (no bugs seen so far), eye-popping graphics and
DE's superb sound. Add to this the fact that the game itself is
really well-designed around the movie -- it's not just like STAR TREK
where they converted "Shoot the Flugleheim!" into "Shoot the
transporter!", and left the game's goals and general play as arbitrary
as BATMAN's. In some ways, LW3 is as well-done as TAF, though it
doesn't quite capture the essence of the film the way TAF and T2 do.
Still, they've come a long, long way, and if nothing else, they
deserve a pat on the back for making so much progress in so little time.
Back to the game you played: I wonder, if the game you played was
readjusted so that some of the insta-drains were avoided, would you
revise your opinion in any way? Or does the game just not do anything
for you, drains or no?
(In any case, I'll see if I can post a more complete review next week.
I think a solid, uninterrupted hour or so of LW3 at 7AM should help me
formulate an opinion about this game one way or another...)
--
Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart,
PANIX, New York, NY | remember, we were way ahead of you."
|
Email: s...@panix.com | - David Letterman
Phaedrus
[about LW3 being HS2-like)]
>I felt it was more like T2 than HSII -- Broadway has HSII and LW3 side
>by side and a T2 right next to that. The top loop is definitely taken
>from HSII, but the rest of the game felt a lot like T2 to me. This is
>feel more than layout, though the Database shot is there, as is the
>skill shot and the Skull shot. It also has an open playfield, like
>T2, rather than HSII's somewhat cluttered lower playfield layout.
Hmm. Yeah, now that I look at it, you're right; there are a lot of
T2 aspects mixed in as well. (Yes, there's a T2 at Game Space as well.) I
guess HS2 was fresher on my mind than T2, so I picked up the HS2 parallels
more readily than the T2 parallels. The upper playfield is an interesting
mix; yes, the Skull shot is there, but so's that ramp in the same position
as the Supercharger shot, and so's the tunnel shot.
[my comment about the equivalent to the "freeway" loop sending balls
straight towards the drain]
>Sounds like your game isn't level or perhaps isn't at the correct
>angle. This definitely doesn't happen on a level game installed at
>the correct angle -- I had very few balls drain down the center for
>whatever reason. The left drain was much more of a problem, but then
>again, it's designed to be just as vicious as HSII's.
I was watching people play LW3 yesterday, and noticed that it didn't
seem to be doing this to them; either I was shooting the loop at the wrong
speed (and with those Stupid State Flippers, I don't see how I could have had
much control over this), or they've adjusted the machine. LW3's loop does
still return the ball to the flippers quite a bit more quickly than HS2's,
though. On HS2, you have some hope of trapping the ball as it comes in, or
at least of aiming your shot; on LW3; it pretty much seems to be "slap the
button and hope for the best".
[LW3 left kickback woes]
>Again, something is misadjusted. Our game kicked the ball into the
>center bank of targets, where it ended up back in play. There was
>never a SIMPSONS-like in-and-out-and-in-and-out sequence.
Well, the in-and-out seemed to be gone the last time I saw the machine,
but once or twice the ball still got kicked out, bounced off a target bank,
and went straight down the middle and out of play.
[my comments about "shootout scenes" being too dangerous to play]
>I really like this -- especially since the longer you wait, the more
>points you get. Of course, if you wait too long, he shoots you and
>you don't get any points. So you can get a quick 1 or 2M points, or
>wait and get around 6M. Or wait too long and get nothing.
Hmm. I must have missed this rule. I just "grabbed the gun and fired",
and generally wound up with 3M or 4M. I think the art of pinball documentation
has been lost. :)
>The game is as challenging as it is precisely because there are no
>"safe" places to hold on to the ball (see discussion of flippers
>below). That's a nice twist for wizards; novices never hold the ball
>anyway, so it doesn't matter to them.
"Nice twist"? I like a challenging game, but I expect that challenge
to come from the playfield, not from the flippers. My skill doesn't matter
if the game won't let me communicate that skill to the ball. With LW3, I feel
like the flipper angle won't let me trap it, and the flipper response won't let
me one-touch it accurately, so what's the point?
>"Fight Mode" is pretty good, but I especially liked the target range.
>Compared to HSII's really lame video mode, these were all excellent.
Personally, even though HS2's video mode isn't very visually interesting,
I think there's a lot more skill involved than there is in seeing how fast you
can slap the flipper buttons, but I guess that's just a matter of personal
preference. :)
>I presume that pounding the flipper buttons a few more times in the
>course of a game won't make a dramatic difference in terms of overall
>wear; the fact that you're hitting the side of the cabinet really hard
>shouldn't matter, should it? I guess it depends on whether the
>flipper buttons themselves ever fail. But after all, there are plenty
>of video games that are designed to have their buttons pounded on, so
>it must be possible to design a game with that in mind and not have
>the flipper buttons break every few days. We'll see.
This may be a bug (what? A bug in Data East software? Impossible :) ),
but at least three times I've seen the flippers live and thrashing away during
fight mode. So it's not purely the flipper buttons that are being worn down.
>I'm no DE fan -- HOOK and TIME MACHINE are pretty much the only games
>of theirs I ever really liked at all -- but I enjoyed playing LW3 and
>look forward to giving it some serious attention next week, sometime
>early in the morning when there's no one there and I can actually
>*hear* the darn thing. If I owned an arcade, I'd get one for sure, if
>only because it's a great license and it's flashy as all hell. DE
>sure knows how to pull people in; for anyone in the business, I
>suspect that's more than half the battle.
That's an interesting point. I wouldn't want LW3 to be my only pin,
but maybe in a line with a bunch of others it has a role. At the local
arcade, here's the order you encounter the pins in as you walk past them
toward the row of five Street Fighter II machines:
Lethal Weapon 3
Star Trek
Terminator 2
Bad Cats
The Addams Family
FunHouse
High Speed II
So the flashy licenses are in front to attract the rugrats, and once they
become interested in pinball they can move on to the good stuff. :)
>Back to the game you played: I wonder, if the game you played was
>readjusted so that some of the insta-drains were avoided, would you
>revise your opinion in any way? Or does the game just not do anything
>for you, drains or no?
I guess that, particularly since HS2 (and T2) were available just a few
steps to the left, the question that came to mind was, "What does this machine
have going for it that these other machines don't?" And the answer that came
to mind was "Graphics and sound, and not a whole lot else." Now that you've
pointed out some more redeeming features, maybe I'll have another crack at it.
Lyman F. Sheats Jr.
>Williams flippers are still head-and-shoulders above DE's, which lack
>any sort of "feel". You just slap at the ball a lot and hope it goes
>more or less where you aim it. To make matters worse, the flippers
>only flip upwards to a flat level (parallel to the ground) position,
>making it difficult or impossible to hold the ball and really aim for
>shots. Why do I have this feeling that Lyman isn't going to like this
>game much... :-)
Ahem, well, I haven't played the game enough to from a real opinion of
it yet. But I will mention a couple of things that I feel won't change
no matter how many times I play the game:
The Horizontal Flippers:
Gee, Steve, you've got this really bad habit of always being right :-).
I don't care for them too much, but not because I can't trap all of the
balls during multiball. The LW3 I played last Monday had a really obnoxious
right flipper, so horizontal and obnoxious, I was able to make the #2 hole
from a dead stop about 1 time in 5. I'd shoot the ball, and the ball would
slowly, very very slowly crawl toward the hole. For such an important
shot in the game, I don't think it should be as difficult as it was with
the flippers set up that way from the factory. And forget about trying
to make one of the center drop targets from a dead stop from the right
flipper - at least on the one I played.
Also, the horizontal flippers pretty much eliminate any reasonable kind
of attempt at a backhand shot. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that the
default flipper configuration on the LW3 games is the way it is.
The Software:
Hey! I haven't noticed any problems yet! Could DE software really be
on its way? And for a game with such depth, too. So far, so good.
The Rules:
Well, it isn't 'collect the crystals and shoot the transporter,' or 'pound
on that crock clock ramp and hit the vuk.' You can actually tune in on one
of the many features and have some fun for a while. I don't feel like I'm
locked into one way to play this game.
Well, that's it: short and not too informative. For Phaedrus, the game I
played on Monday, I had a center drain problem with the right subway shot
about one time in 5.
BTW, there's supposed to be two bubble levels on this game, under the
left instruction card. The flyer boasts: the operator sees it, the players
don't. Anyone as upset as I am that players can't see what angle the game
is at? I just noticed that there's a bubble level on HSII, boy am I blind!
--
Lyman F. Sheats Jr.
The MITRE Corporation
202 Burlington Road, Bedford MA 01730
email: l...@mitre.org
Josh Hayes
>Also, the horizontal flippers pretty much eliminate any reasonable kind
>of attempt at a backhand shot. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that the
>default flipper configuration on the LW3 games is the way it is.
This is insane, if true. The ONLY thing I like about the DE flippers
is that, for some reason, I can hit virtually ALL the necessary shots
much more accurately with backhands than forehands. This was particularly
true, for example, on Batman, where I spent a week one hour a few days
ago....hit the joker with the left flipper, and shoot the Flugelheim
with the right.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that LW3 has flippers like
------- --------
in the up position, as opposed to the universal "uptilted" flipper? Yuck.
Let me add that the "one-touch" referred to by Phaedrus is indeed much
more difficult on DE flippers than Williams (or Bally, or Gottlieb, for
that matter--er, I mean, Premier), but it can still be done. What is
often more useful, however, is the dead-flipper bounce, because DE
flippers are so dead. A ball screaming down onto the left flipper, if
allowed to simply bounce on a down-flipper, will usually meekly bounce
to the right flipper for as controlled a shot as you're gonna get with
these ridiculous flippers. At least, it works for me.
ObFrustration: After failing to dislodge Phaedrus from top banana
on the HSII we both play, I was possessed by the God Of Pinball last
night on a DIFFERENT machine and nailed 950 million. Had two balls left,
at 945, too....of course, choked away the billion. Sigh.
>Lyman F. Sheats Jr.
Josh
--
Josh Hayes, Quantitative Sciences HR-20 U of Washington
jo...@mowgli.cqs.washington.edu 206 685-2793
Exclaimer: Hey! Plan: Birth School Work Death
Lyman F. Sheats Jr.
I wrote:
>>Also, the horizontal flippers pretty much eliminate any reasonable kind
>>of attempt at a backhand shot. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that the
>>default flipper configuration on the LW3 games is the way it is.
>This is insane, if true. The ONLY thing I like about the DE flippers
>is that, for some reason, I can hit virtually ALL the necessary shots
>much more accurately with backhands than forehands. This was particularly
>true, for example, on Batman, where I spent a week one hour a few days
>ago....hit the joker with the left flipper, and shoot the Flugelheim
>with the right.
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that LW3 has flippers like
> ------- --------
>in the up position, as opposed to the universal "uptilted" flipper? Yuck.
Basically, that's the way they were on the game I was playing last
Monday, although they weren't prefectly horizontal, but damn close.
To give a clearer idea of what I mean, on most HSII games I play I can
hit the burn rubber eject hole from a dead stop from the right flipper.
Trying to hit the #3 hole on LW3 (this hole and the burn rubber hole
on HSII are basically in the same spots) from the right flipper from a
dead stop was impossible. The ball would instead travel toward the
left drop target on the center bank, or toward the #2 hole, given the
same shot.
I wasn't the only person frustrated by this. I played the game at the
distributor and one of the employees, who isn't a great pinball fan, said
that the angle of the flippers bothered him. I'm wondering if all LW3
games are being shipped from the factory this way, and if so, whether or
not it bothers anyone else.
>ObFrustration: After failing to dislodge Phaedrus from top banana
>on the HSII we both play, I was possessed by the God Of Pinball last
>night on a DIFFERENT machine and nailed 950 million. Had two balls left,
>at 945, too....of course, choked away the billion. Sigh.
Hey, 950M with factory settings is nothing to be sneezed at on this game;
you've nothing much to sigh about, in my opinion.
The HSII I play just got cleaned. The ball now *always* makes it around
the speed loop from the plunger (go figure :-) and play is lightning fast.
It's actually a lot more fun! I played a 4 player game all by myself and
collected a 42M helicopter bonus! Bing bing bing bing! Kickback lit!
Bing bing bing bing! Helicopter bonus increases!
Steve Baumgarten
This is insane, if true. The ONLY thing I like about the DE flippers
is that, for some reason, I can hit virtually ALL the necessary shots
much more accurately with backhands than forehands. This was particularly
true, for example, on Batman, where I spent a week one hour a few days
ago....hit the joker with the left flipper, and shoot the Flugelheim
with the right.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that LW3 has flippers like
------- --------
in the up position, as opposed to the universal "uptilted" flipper? Yuck.
In the words of Ed McMahon, "You are correct, sir." Though actually,
I think they flip to about 5 degrees above horizontal. Still, "yuck"
is an apt enough summary...
Steve Baumgarten
I was watching people play LW3 yesterday, and noticed that it
didn't seem to be doing this to them; either I was shooting the
loop at the wrong speed (and with those Stupid State Flippers, I
don't see how I could have had much control over this), or they've
adjusted the machine. LW3's loop does still return the ball to the
flippers quite a bit more quickly than HS2's, though. On HS2, you
have some hope of trapping the ball as it comes in, or at least of
aiming your shot; on LW3; it pretty much seems to be "slap the
button and hope for the best".
I didn't have a lot of trouble making repeated subway shots -- though
never more than 4 in a row -- but I did have trouble making the
"Lethal 2" shot with those sad flippers. Can they be adjusted at all
so that they don't flip to a horizontal position? What a dumb design!
Personally, even though HS2's video mode isn't very visually
interesting, I think there's a lot more skill involved than there
is in seeing how fast you can slap the flipper buttons, but I guess
that's just a matter of personal preference. :)
Skill? You're kidding, right? I don't consider "Shift to 5th gear
and move the car to center-right, then go get a Coke from the vending
machine" to be a great challenge. This is on a game with prototype
ROMs, though; I wonder if they've made this a tad more challenging in
the release version.
I guess that, particularly since HS2 (and T2) were available just a
few steps to the left, the question that came to mind was, "What
does this machine have going for it that these other machines
don't?" And the answer that came to mind was "Graphics and sound,
and not a whole lot else." Now that you've pointed out some more
redeeming features, maybe I'll have another crack at it.
Graphics and sound count for a lot -- witness how people always
mention BK2K's sound when they talk about the game -- but not
everything. If the game play isn't there to support the bells and
whistles, then it won't be of much interest to anyone.
A good license also seems to count for a lot. At Broadway, the HOOK
is due to become history fairly soon, yet BATMAN and STAR TREK remain,
each earning money. Who's quarters, you may ask? Certainly not the
regulars, who in general won't go near them. But there are a lot of
"non-regulars" in the world, and for them the license, graphics and
sound count for more than the (marginally) better play of a game like
HOOK.
(And let's not overlook the incredible attraction of the endless Ninja
Chop-Socky games -- anyone seen Williams latest video game, their own
entry in the Street Fighter II look-alike contest? It's called MORTAL
KOMBAT, and people were crowding around it like it was a road-side
accident. I'm just surprised that we haven't seen an SFII license in
the pinball world yet.)
Phaedrus
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that LW3 has flippers like
> ------- --------
>in the up position, as opposed to the universal "uptilted" flipper? Yuck.
In fact, on the local machine, the left flipper doesn't even quite
go up to horizontal. Some fun, huh?
>ObFrustration: After failing to dislodge Phaedrus from top banana
>on the HSII we both play, I was possessed by the God Of Pinball last
>night on a DIFFERENT machine and nailed 950 million. Had two balls left,
>at 945, too....of course, choked away the billion. Sigh.
Well, the God of Pinball must be making the rounds; it possessed me
just this afternoon. You'll be thankful that you scored that 950M on a
different machine; I started hitting freeway loops and just didn't stop, and
wound up with 4 Redline Manias, 7 Multiballs, 7 extra balls, 3 or 4 Super
Jackpots, and 1,142,956,950 points. It doesn't have quite the poetry of the
777M score I had before, but I think I can live with it for a while. :)
(By the way, I would like to thank my doubles partner, Robert Deloura, who did
me the great courtesy of not killing me after I backhanded the ball up the
Supercharger for the third Redline Mania. :) )
Robert DeLoura
>jo...@cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) writes:
>>ObFrustration: After failing to dislodge Phaedrus from top banana
>>on the HSII we both play, I was possessed by the God Of Pinball last
>>night on a DIFFERENT machine and nailed 950 million. Had two balls left,
>>at 945, too....of course, choked away the billion. Sigh.
> (By the way, I would like to thank my doubles partner, Robert DeLoura, who
> did me the great courtesy of not killing me after I backhanded the ball up
> the Supercharger for the third Redline Mania. :) )
It's terribly depressing to have scored 18M on your first ball, only to have
to wait for a half-dozen balls, 2 Redline Manias, a couple of Multiballs,
and a few Super Jackpots before getting to play your 2nd ball. Especially
when you're not the one scoring them. Going into my second ball, I was down
by about 800M points. :-)
Of course, if by some miracle I'd managed to catch his score and beat him,
I think I'd have been in the papers the next day... in the Obituary section.
;)
I'm obviously going to have to take him around back to the Street Fighter 2
machines and rough him up a little.
-----
Robert DeLoura
del...@noaapmel.gov
Jim Harkins
>The HSII I play just got cleaned. The ball now *always* makes it around
>the speed loop from the plunger (go figure :-)
On 2 of the 3 HSII's I (used to) play the reason the ball won't go all the
way around is because that damn ramp doesn't go up far enough. I for one
am completely disgusted with the game and refuse to play it any more. It's
fun as hell but much too frustrating. It's the only game where I can
consistently score under 10 million, and fairly often never even hit the
damn ball once in a game! A rip off is what it is.
jim
--
Never name your character Clint Flicker
--------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Harkins [ucsd|uunet]!pacdata!jim
Pacific Data Products j...@pacdata.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Harkins
->points you get. Of course, if you wait too long, he shoots you and
->you don't get any points. So you can get a quick 1 or 2M points, or
->wait and get around 6M. Or wait too long and get nothing.
-
- Hmm. I must have missed this rule. I just "grabbed the gun and fired",
-and generally wound up with 3M or 4M.
The eyes flash, if it's convienant grab the gun and fire when they do. I
didn't realize you got points for being early. Note this is only worthwhile
if the ball is going through a ramp, or is in the kickout hole or
something. If the ball is flying at a flipper it ain't worth losing the
ball just to 'grab the gun and fire'.
Martin Keates(MSC RJH)
>the speed loop from the plunger (go figure :-) and play is lightning fast.
>It's actually a lot more fun! I played a 4 player game all by myself and
>collected a 42M helicopter bonus! Bing bing bing bing! Kickback lit!
>Bing bing bing bing! Helicopter bonus increases!
That's funny, the one I play has also just been cleaned and fixed (yes,
_fixed_, I finally managed to convince the arcade attendents that flippers
that _start_ horizontal aren't exactly configured properly).
Before ... the plunger _never_ made it to the top flipper (and normally went
straight down the kickback lane), the bottom right flipper was so weak it was
impossible to make the lock from it and very difficult to get the
supercharger, and every ten seconds of play the ball would go down the
kickback lane). _But_, a shot around the right freeway loop always went all
the way around.
And now ... the plunger always shoots the balls up to the top flipper (and
bloody fast too), the bottom right flipper can make the lock shot easily, and
the supercharger ramp is easy as piss to hit now. The slingshots are so active
that if the ball hits them it always goes like a machine gun between them and
normally hits all the kickback targets before flying off up higher into the
playfield. And the ball hardly ever goes down the left outlane anyway.
So, loads of fun except that when the lock ramp is down a shot around the
right freeway goes so fast that the ramp doesn't get out of the way quickly
enough and often diverts the ball so it goes the wrong way down the speed
millions loop and straight down the right outlane :(. But apart from that it
plays really well, and I think I like it quite a lot now.
I especially like the way that if all the lights have been hit you can lock
all three balls straight after each other - lock number 1, number 2 goes
round to the top flipper, lock number 2, number 3 goes round to top flipper,
lock number 3, wooo-wooo-woooo-wooo.
Oh, just one quick question - what happens if you hit all the lights twice
during a multiball etc. after collecting an extra ball for getting them the
first time (in the same multiball) - does it light the extra ball again?
Martin.