Tilt: The Battle to Save STERN Pinball?
pinghetto
NIB and used Stern games. My last NIB being Ironman. Over the past
couple months with all of the pinball news posts with Stern and JJ,
something has just been bugging me. And I finally figured it out.
Even after watching the documentary TILT about 1,000 times, it still
amazes me what the designers and even management at Williams went
through to come up with Pin2k. I mean, they really gave it their all
to save pinball (people actually believed in and were excited about
their product). Now, fast forward to present time. Stern knocking
out pins still (which is great and much better than nothing) that
haven't changed since the Williams Terminator 2 or Gilligans Island.
From what it appeared, they had no plans of changing anything until JJ
came along. I just feel that they were just sitting around seeing how
long they could get us suckers to buy the same old same old... but
now they have to step up to the plate with the new competition
around. Stern was waiting around for the industry to change them,
instead of what Williams (or JJ for that matter) did.... change the
industry on their own. Now, I understand it didn't work all that well
for WMS and we haven't seen any product from JJ..... But, will we
ever see Stern battle to save pinball? I guess only time will tell.
Brian
Lloyd Olson
I posted before that 2011 will be the transition year. 2012 will show us the
future of pinball.
Exciting times. We are lucky to be part of the excitement. LTG :)
"pinghetto" <mill...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:b432c772-2c69-4e56...@f36g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Slate
We sometimes tend to forget that these companies their sole customer
was the operator and the operator kind of dictated what they want,
what they will buy, etc. Germany was a huge market. Though Stern tries
to make a great game I still think most of their thinking is operators
and export sales, not looking to make a collectors item but rather
quantity of games and titles. I think they sell the same # units with
Shrek as they do Batman.
Who knows. The only thing that will save pinball is more pizza joints
and places having pinball and eventually the kids coming full circle
to play these games and realize the physical interaction, etc.
People are people and have been for 1000 of years. Some things take a
while but we all go back to basics. Computers were supposed to stop
paper printing but instead it made it worse. Internet was supposed to
end books and magazines and news print, but in fact magazines are
bigger than ever.
To me I need that physical interaction with the game, standing up,
moving, etc.
I think you will see a pin come back soon. It has only been 10 years
since Williams Closed.
Jonathan
The only thing you will see is a battle for Stern to survive. They
were a B-brand as Data East, as Sega and even with no competition they
crapped out B-games for most of the time. I have no illusion tey will
ever become ans A-brand. Even the Terminator 2 you mention beats many
Stern titles. The spirit at Stern is different than it was at
Williams. All former WMS designers that worked for Stern say working
at WMS was way more fun. That shows in their designs. So what good is
it to bring back Steve Ritchy if he's only allowed to design another
'pinball like it's 1992' again?
Jonathan
pinghetto
care about pinball. Why would any "average" op buy a 4k pinball that
hasn't changed since 1991 all to make $30 a week if they are lucky.
Then they have to split that. If Stern is currently making pins for
operators, the operators certainly in the good state of Minnesota.
We're lucky to get one new Stern in the twin cities. Back in the
"Monster Bash" era, one single op would have 20 of the new game.
Brian
Jonathan
While you may think we forget were pinball is coming from: that
doesn't matter. What matters is you (Stern) need to have an eye out
for where pinball is going and invest in that. If pinball is going to
be more of a home users product, you can still run a decent factory
and try to be innovative in the designs, as long as you reach your
customer. Stern is no good at that. The upcoming Stones release
parties are an exception and even that they screwed up already by
giving away that it is about a pinball machine. Not clever at all.
Selling a game like The Rolling Stones requires a different approach
as there are several different customergroups to focus on.
Stern will only do what is necessary to stay in business. No more, no
less. The main reason: Gary has nothing else he can do. And like I
said before: hiring Steve Ritchie back is no guarantee he will be
allowed to make a kick ass game that will lead pinball into the
future.
Jonathan
skati...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dude manufacturing pinballs is a losing proposition. Stern is bearely
hanging on - that is why they needed that equity raise. That is why
they use older technology because it is economical. Keep belting out
the same pins with different titles on them and maybe a few different
playfield toys. Use temporary non union labor that could care a less
about pinball. To complety redesign a pin would take a huge amout of
upfront equity or cash and then you don't know if the output would be
successful. Williams got out of it because they were losing money
period. Hell Gene lost a ton of money on BBB and I last time I talked
to him prices have all tripled on making parts for Kingpin. No
manufacturer wants to manufacture 200 pieces. 4,000 pieces maybe.
Stern does not manufacture anything. They bring the parts in and
assemble the pins. Williams did a ton of manufacturing for their
pinballs therefore they could control quality. Pinballs are not moey
makers on routes and the expense to maintain them is brutal. Bottom
line is kids don't play pinball and bars with games are becoming less
common with the smoking ban, dui's, etc. Everything is going towards
sports bars with 200 TV's. The market matured a while ago and is
dying. More and more ops get out of pinball every year. For a
company to focus on the home use market and really redesign a pin
would end up costing a ton of money and would therefore end up costing
a lot of money per unit because of the limited market. Even if the
technology improved and pinball was really redigned, would people pay
$9,000 for a pinball for their house? It is simple supply and
demand. My 2 cents anyway.
Pappy Boyington
Keep going with that narrow minded attitude and the only person you're
hurting is yourself. Someday you will learn to appreciate more than
just TZs and TAFs.
Rich Wiski
Big12bus
They are saving pinball. Don't know if you have owned or own your own
business but 2009 and 2010 were meat grinders. Spitting out
businesses and workers like slain pork bellies. For Gary to still be
in business especially pinball is incredible. To say JJ has changed
an industry, don't know where that is coming from but Gary is trying
to save pinball.
Bill
pinghetto
Maybe saying JJ is chnging the industry was the wrong thing to say.
But, he is definatly influencing it. Stern seems to be changing their
design directIon lately. I am not trying to totally dog Stern. If
Tron is a homerun, I'd pick one up for sure. I'm just very glad there
is now some competition to give Stern a much needed big kick in the
ass. And I hope both companies are successful with their targeted
customer base.
Brian
pinghetto
employees, investors, and Garys check book are trying to save
pinball.
Brian
wesley
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think Stern has put out several "A" games (TSPP, SM, LOTR, to name
3) over the years but I understand they've had to go into survival
mode or they might go under. Bottom line, make a profit or perish
which is was Williams decided to do. Agree with it or not, like it or
not (I don't) Williams management apparently made a decision to make
another product and do survive, but sad for us, not making pinballs.
This is often a business reality but I would like to see Stern and
hopefully the new company making pins for many, many years but wonder
if there's going to be enough market now and in 10, 20 and way beyond
to make it profitable.
Rompen
> I think we are seeing it.
>
> I posted before that 2011 will be the transition year. 2012 will show us the
> future of pinball.
I continue to say, the future of pinball is P2k. Either Stern or
Jersey Jack needs to get with Gene and use that platform. It's light
years ahead of everything else out there and has 10x the potential.
The only thing that's going to open a new market is new technology.
And Stern is still using 1990s tech. I sure hope Gene can get Wizard
Blocks going... I bet if he announces that machine's inevitable
availability, the pre-orders will far exceed BBB and WOZ.
Lloyd Olson
"Rompen" <romp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Rare Hero
> The only thing that's going to open a new market is new technology.
The only thing that's going to open a new market in pinball is if
people start giving a shit about playing coin-op games again! Stern
(or pinball in general) can't bring back the cultural relevance of the
arcade.
Greg
goatdan
> NIB and used Stern games. My last NIB being Ironman. Over the past
> couple months with all of the pinball news posts with Stern and JJ,
> something has just been bugging me. And I finally figured it out.
> Even after watching the documentary TILT about 1,000 times, it still
> amazes me what the designers and even management at Williams went
> through to come up with Pin2k. I mean, they really gave it their all
> to save pinball (people actually believed in and were excited about
> their product). Now, fast forward to present time. Stern knocking
> out pins still (which is great and much better than nothing) that
> haven't changed since the Williams Terminator 2 or Gilligans Island.
But -- there is a difference between today and 12ish years ago with
PB2K -- and that is simply, locations are different. 12 years ago, I
could name off the top of my head a half dozen arcades within 10 miles
of where I lived, and another half dozen locations that had a bunch of
games including at least one pinball machine. Now, today, 12 years
later, NO arcades exist and the locations are few and far between.
There is basically one place near me for half the year that gets new
games.
Having said that, I've also said this before -- a lot of locations
stick pins at the worst places. I know of one business in town that
routes a Harley in their restaurant's COAT ROOM. It's Milwaukee, so
yeah, maybe people hang up their coats around here for 10 months a
year, but I was there in January and there were about four coats in
the room and the place was packed. So, why in the hell is there a
pinball machine there?
Somehow, something about that "old" pinball design was still
attractive enough to catch the corner of people's eyes, make them go
INTO the coat room and drop enough coin into the machine to keep it
there on route.
If that is true, it points less to an issue with the product, and more
to an issue with the lack of awareness about the product. Now, how to
fix that is another whole conversation, but I don't think that pinball
machines that are recognizable to people as pinball machines is the
problem with pinball. If you made something that didn't resemble a
pinball machine, would people venture into the coat room to see what
it was?
Dan Q very much
> Williams got out of it because they were losing money
> period.
Yeah, except they weren't, they were simply making a paltry return on investment compared to the gambling machine division.
"Not making enough money" is a sound reason to halt production of the coolest things ever, I guess.
Jonathan
Thanx for your 2 cents. So why is JJ getting in? Because there are no
ways to make money on pinball? Have you ever considered that pinball
is in it's current state because of the lack of innovation? Which
company is responsible for that? Wouldn't it be very well possible to
make pinball cheaper if it got updated?
Jonathan
Jonathan
Read back your comment above and ask yourself who has the narrow mind?
FYE: I do appreciate pinballgames from all era's. That's not the
discussion here (beats me why you picked that angle). The discussion
is wether Stern can be saved. Looking back on 25 years of B-brand
games and never ever being able to stand out above the competition, I
say: Stern will keep on doing what they have been doing forever and
nothing more. The only way the company can be saved is if Gary steps
out and someone with a new vision starts running the place.
Jonathan
World of Pinball
Gary could give a rats tail about pinball. Ask him when you see him
what pinball machine he owns at home, what does he play, ask him about
a shotmap and ruleset. He owns no pinball machine. He plays no pinball
machine, that's why they should build toasters instead.
The investors hires Steve, Gary did not hire Steve. Thay hate each
other. I give it a month at best. Read all the past posts and Steve
went back. He e mailed me that he went back.
JJ already changed Stern, they hired Steve because of JJ no other
reason. Thank JJ for that one
Wayne
Jason
P2k was tried. They pushed it like there was no tomorrow. Spent
multi-millions. Spent triple or quadruple in design costs. Higher
priced game. Told everyone it was a platform to invest in. And guess
what? It pretty much tanked. It didn't earn appreciably more money
than a standard pin. Southpark was a far better investment. Good
try, but several obvious mistakes were made in P2k. In my opinion
because they were so obsessed with the "wow" factor of putting
graphics into a game that they forgot that pinball is more about
kinetics than graphics.
Now with their being a market for high-end home sales (apparently),
maybe Wizard Blocks could be a success. But considering the price of
a standard pin made in small quantities, what would Gene have to
charge for Wizard Blocks? The price of a condo near the beach? It
may not be feasable. Wizard Blocks definitely looks like it was
headed to be far better than RFM and SWEP, but Gene should definitely
think about making the playfield standad size, the way the designers
originally wanted P2k. The number one complaint about P2k is that it
"feels too short."
The reason Stern is still using 1990's tech is because 1) they don't
seem to be able to afford the RnD to redesign something like that and
2) 9 out of 10 players would still prefer to play SM or POTC over
RFM.
Borygard
P2K didn't tank, it actually did much better than the games previous to it.
By anywhere from twice to five times actually. Five times the sales of
previous games isn't tanking.
The playfield in P2K games IS standard size. The size of P2K playfields are
actually an inch LONGER than System 11 games.
Saying that 9 out of 10 players prefer SM or POTC to RFM is just gibberish.
8 out of 10 people drive a clown car. See, anyone can do it, that doesn't
make it true.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Jason" <react...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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jackofdiamonds
The big misconception here is that P2K was unsuccessful.It wasn't...it
was a big hit with ops and players.It was truly the last innovation
seen in pinball.It wasn't perfect but neither was the first 2 games
with flippers on them.It needed time to develop like any other
innovation/platform.Look at the first iPod and look what we have
now.Williams had the "muscle" to get it built.Huge research and
development,full art department,all the top designers,marketing
dept,their own recording studio and the reputation,brand recognition
to go with it.Stern has none of this.The real + Stern has is they are
the ONLY co. making pinballs,so we as fans, except what they give us
'cause it's all we got. Wiiliams got out of pinball because their
forecasters predicted the growth of gambling in this country and they
were right.Fact:There will never be more pinball machines than slot
machines.Fast forward 10 years and coin-op is dead.All these warehouse
finds is just ops going out of buisness.Arcades are becoming part of
folklore.Buisness insiders are saying ops don't buy ANY games
anymore.It's all Megatouch and data-based jukeboxes.Pinballs last
frontier:Home owners who are crazy/wealthy enough to spend 4-7K on a
toy, and clubs, and leagues.Here in NYC,pinball has a cool underground
growth with guys like Pinaholic ,bigehrl(Reciprocal),Max Pinball and
NYC Pinball League starting to get people to come out and play.They do
it in places that are available to them:bars,pool halls, and yes a
skateboard shop.That's probably the future; hardcore niche marketplace
for people who are seeking out the games.
Jonathan
Sad but true
Retrogameconnection
worse. Internet was supposed to
end books and magazines and news print, but in fact magazines are
bigger than ever."
Really? I'm not sure where you're getting your information from - but
try telling that to Hugh Hefner or the publisher of Gameroom
magazine.... Or better yet, try telling that to these publishers:
I.D. Magazine/F&W Media
1954 - January/February 2010
National Geographic Adventure/National Geographic
Spring 1999 - December/January 2009/2010
Giant Magazine/Radio One
2004 - January 2010
Metropolitan Home/Hachette Filipacchi
1981 - December 2009
Gourmet/Conde Nast
1941 - November 2009
Cookie/Conde Nast
2005 - November 2009
Southern Accents/Time Inc.
1977 - September/October 2009
Vibe/Wicks Group
1992 - June 2009
Nickelodeon/Viacom
June 1993 - December 2009
Portfolio/Conde Nast Publications
May, 2007 - April 2009
Blender/Alpha Media
2001 - April 2009
Best Life/Rodale
2004 - May 2009
Travel & Leisure Golf/American Express Publishing
March 1998 - March/April 2009
Hallmark Magazine/Hallmark Cards
September/October 2006 - February/March 2009
Domino/Conde Nast
April 2005 - March 2009
Teen/Hearst Magazines
1954 - Winter 2008
Wondertime/Walt Disney Publishing
2006 - March 2009
Plenty
2004 - December/January 2009
Electronic Gaming Monthly/Ziff Davis Media
1989 - January 2009
Country Home/Meredith Corp.
1986 - March 2009
Atlanta Peach/Ocean Drive Media
2006 - December 2008
Green Guide/National Geographic
1994 - Winter 2008
PC Magazine / Ziff Davis
1982 - January 2009
SI Latino / Time Inc.
2005 - December 2008
Cottage Living / Time Inc.
November 2004 - December 2008
Play / The New York Times
2006 - November 2008
O at Home / Hearst Magazines
2003 - Winter 2008
Men's Vogue / Conde Nast
2005 - December 2008/January 2009
Radar
2003 - October/November 2008
02138 / Manhattan Media
2006 - December 2008/January 2009
CosmoGirl / Hearst Magazines
1999 - December 2008
Home / Hachette Filipacchi
1951 - October 2008
Playgirl / Blue Horizon Media
1973 - January/February 2009
Quick & Simple / Hearst Magazines
2005 - July 29, 2008
Golf for Women / Conde Nast
1998 - July/August 2008
Future Snowboarding Magazine / Future US
2005-March, 2008
Games for Windows / Ziff Davis
2006 - April/May 2008
This is just a short, incomplete list of the magazines that have gone
away in last couple of years. Magazines are on the decline and have
been for years...
Ron Lyons
> Thanx for your 2 cents. So why is JJ getting in? Because there are no
> ways to make money on pinball? Have you ever considered that pinball
> is in it's current state because of the lack of innovation? Which
> company is responsible for that?
I'd say Bally/Williams.
Ron Lyons
>
> Saying that 9 out of 10 players prefer SM or POTC to RFM is just gibberish.
> 8 out of 10 people drive a clown car. See, anyone can do it, that doesn't
> make it true.
>
Depends on what you consider a 'clown car'. If you include most
imports, hybrids, and station wagons.... well....
:)
Lloyd Olson
"jackofdiamonds" <jackofd...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e2ddbf6d-3e25-4d36...@y36g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
> The big misconception here is that P2K was unsuccessful.It wasn't...it
> was a big hit with ops and players.
P2K was a hit with non pinball people too. It brought in new money. I don't
know if it could have kept up though. One of Larry Demar's talks at Expo he
said they would have had to sell 7,000 Wizard Blocks to break even. If that
number were to keep rising with every release, might have helped doom
things.
> .Here in NYC,pinball has a cool underground
> growth with guys like Pinaholic ,bigehrl(Reciprocal),Max Pinball and
> NYC Pinball League starting to get people to come out and play.They do
> it in places that are available to them:bars,pool halls, and yes a
> skateboard shop.That's probably the future; hardcore niche marketplace
> for people who are seeking out the games.
If you look over RGP going back about 12 years. There are lots of small
start ups like this every few years. Unfortunately most only last a few
years. Captain Kirk, Ron Salny, etc. Many aren't doing it as a job, and it
takes precious time and money away from their families. Very few can eek out
a living operating pins. So support these guys so they can last. LTG :)
Lloyd Olson
to where it is, and trying to make it better.
stern has had everything possible hit them. Dying industry, economy, other
forms of entertainment competing for people's attention. This last ten years
has been a wild and wicked ride.
Like them or not, they are still plugging along trying to do the best they
can and improve.
Not owning a pinball machine, if he plays pinball, knowing shots and rule
sets, has absolutely no bearing on whether he likes pinball or not. You
honestly think he's going through this hell for his health ?
I love pinball. Try to operate it. Try to promote it. Try to help where I
can, try to make things better.
And I don't personally own a pinball machine or have one at home. I rarely
ever play outside of checking something I repaired. Rule set, shot maps -
what the heck are they ?
Yet when you consider the effort I put forth. I think I score pretty high on
the Rats Tail scale. LTG :)
"World of Pinball" <worldof...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:94180a12-8dba-4804...@n16g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
Gary could give a rats tail about pinball. Ask him when you see him
what pinball machine he owns at home, what does he play, ask him about
a shotmap and ruleset. He owns no pinball machine. He plays no pinball
machine, that's why they should build toasters instead.
Wayne
Cudaman
from yesterday.
My family and I are in Orlando, FL and my sons wanted to go to Disney
Quest. For those of you who have not been there, it is five floors of
interactive games (some are pretty cool experiences) to include many
old school video games, skee ball and a handful of pinball machines.
I will limit the story to the pins as it would take me too long to
wrote about the poor condition of majority of the games.
They had IM, POTC, BDK, CSI, SM, IJ4 and two Ultracade pins.
Unfortunately, like many of the classic video games, the games where
in very poor condition. Before anyone asks "did you find someone to
tell" there is no one working there that could possibly fix anything.
All pins were on free play and were being played the whole time.
While it was good to see the pins being played (mostly by older
adults), the kids with those adults would try to play a game. They
would press four games, plung the ball and slap them around a few
times (hitting the flippers constantly), watching the ball drain,
plunging again and repeating until the ball did not come back into the
shooter lane anymore. They either walked away then, or walked away
long before because it was no fun. Overall, not a good experience.
Reason being...no one showed them WHAT they were suppose to do or
helped them. Maybe the adults didn't know either? Doubt it, but it
is a possibility. Layer on top that the games had many parts missing.
On BDK alone, the gate to the location where the Joker target is was
gone (so ball didn't move into the lane to shoot it out), there was no
ramp exiting the upper right mini playfield (so the ball just fell
onto the playfield), and the scoop on the right side of the playfield
was taped over with black duct tape. And the crane didn't work (I
don't know the game so the scoop hole may be required to get that
feature working). Overall, how can you play a pin and have fun with
it when nothing works on it or isn't even there?
So, overall, my opinion is it will be hard to get kids interested in
pins because 1.) adults don't try to let kids know how they should
play or what they should be doing, 2.) no one takes time to read the
instruction card (on the new video games now, it walks you through
exactly what you need to do and even has "training" modes so someone
new can understand the game), 3.) the "interaction" with the game as
someone spoke of up above in this thread is already there on all the
new video games, and 4.) when you have a ton of kids exposed to
pinball for the first time like this, it is very sad to see the very
poor condition of the game so a poor first impression is made.
Perhaps JJ or even new Stern could use the LCD to try to print out a
few "rules" at the beginning of the game to help direct what should be
done. I know that is very simplistic, but perhaps something to
consider. I know the Sega pins tried a "novice" mode to help with the
rules, but that didn't seem to create much help. Unfortunatley, that
is not the biggest problem we have in reviving pinball in the wild. I
know Lloyd and many others have taked about this in the past, but just
wanted to share my story as an example of why "saving pinball" will be
tough for any company.
Dave
Jason
> P2K didn't tank, it actually did much better than the games previous to it.
> By anywhere from twice to five times actually. Five times the sales of
> previous games isn't tanking.
>
Yep, this is what every P2K-fan points to. "It sold 6000
units...!" Yes, but they are ROI devices, right? RFM was not as
successful as its competition at the time, and yet it cost far more.
If you can't beat, outrank, outearn your competition, particularly
when you outspend them in every category, then I'd say that's pretty
unsuccessful. South Park was the Playmeter Game of the Year that
year, the year that was supposed to be year of P2k. ;) South Park
was sold out and in demand to the point where they went back to
production and made additonal runs to meet demand. That's NOT a
tank. See the difference?
RFM slowly dropped off the Playmeter rankings and was never heard from
again. They almost immediately began to be puked out at auctions and
retailers for half of what they sold for the year before. They were
regurgitated everywhere. Why? They didn't earn. Sure, it might've
gotten the first quarters in, but it didn't have legs. It sold so
many because they hyped it for so long, spent three times the money on
it, on promotions, double or triple the design teams, and they had
distributors pre-ordering it on hype in large numbers so they wouldn't
be left out of the new pinball revolution. You can sell distributors
and ops on hype, but hype doesn't fill the coin boxes. That's when
RFM's house of cards came crashing down, when it had to really earn
it's price back.
> The playfield in P2K games IS standard size. The size of P2K playfields are
> actually an inch LONGER than System 11 games.
>
Nope. Try the playfield was several inches SHORTER than every single
game they released for 10 years. It feels short, because it's
shorter. They cut RFM short to old System 11 standards so that they
could fit more in shipping containers to Europe. Sorry, I know
everyone who loves P2k hates hearing that, but it's true. It's a
shorter pin than any of the 90's DMD pins, and the screen in the
middle makes it feel even shorter.
> Saying that 9 out of 10 players prefer SM or POTC to RFM is just gibberish.
> 8 out of 10 people drive a clown car. See, anyone can do it, that doesn't
> make it true.
Nope, again. You may call it gibberish, but you're simply incorrect.
How do I know? The market is dictated by what people like and don't
like. RFM sold for more $$$ than any of those late 90's pins, and
yet it's resale value is far, far less. AFM, MM, CV, MB, shit even
CP sells for as much or more than RFM. RFM is $2000 all day long on a
good day, and can be found for less. If 9 out of 10 people preferred
RFM, then it'd be the other way around wouldn't it? ;) And don't
try production numbers on me: "Oh, RFM isn't as rare, that's all."
If it makes you feel better to say that the only reason AFM sells for
three times what a RFM does is because of production numbers, then
feel free. It does seem you like to live in a confused "Pinball
2000" bubble anyway. A lot of people watched the movie TILT and got
a lot of ideas in their heads, a lot of it is revisionist history,
pure and simple. You love RFM, cool. Don't act like it was some
missed revolution and that everyone loves it. Some love it, most
don't.
Jonathan
I'd say the company who was around the past 10 years. B/W at least
developed P2K, Stern just continued what they were doing as Sega:
build crappy games.
J.
Rare Hero
> I'd say the company who was around the past 10 years. B/W at least
> developed P2K, Stern just continued what they were doing as Sega:
> build crappy games.
That is so unbelievably ignorant. First of all - B/W QUIT!!!!
Shareholders rule, pinball passion be damned. Say what you will about
Stern, but they don't answer to shareholders...they're just trying to
keep the doors open to make pinball machiens. Secon - Stern's games
are LEAGUES ahead of Sega's. You think Spider-Man, POTC, TSPP, LOTR,
FGY, IM, Avatar, Elvis, T3 etc. are equal to Sega's games!??! They're
designed better, they have better rules, they feel better, they play
better, they sound better. Most of them were designed/programmed by
Williams' best people.
Greg
Jonathan
On the contrary, it's not ignorant at all. You name a handfull of
'great' games of which most can't even stand in the shadow of most B/W
games from the 90's. The rest was probably designed with the best
intentions, but due to the work environment at Stern never a creative
masterpiece. You seem to forget the terrible sound most games had
until the SAM system was introduced. So your 2006 Stern sounds still
crappier than any 1995 B/W game. You also seem to forget even SEGA
games had more ramps than the current single ramp games. And how often
did you have to wait for 2 years or so for the software to be
completed?
While anyone may think they should be happy Stern is around, to me it
clearly is a company where the pinball spirit never lived, or died a
long time ago. Gary Stern has no passion for pinball. He's kept
pinball in a coma and if it was for him to say he would strip the
games even more and charge more for them. That's the wrong way the
cycle turns. It took JJP to wake somebody up and now all of a sudden
working at Stern is fun and the most brilliant games will be designed?
Get real.
J
Rare Hero
> On the contrary, it's not ignorant at all. You name a handfull of
> 'great' games of which most can't even stand in the shadow of most B/W
> games from the 90's. The rest was probably designed with the best
> intentions, but due to the work environment at Stern never a creative
> masterpiece. You seem to forget the terrible sound most games had
> until the SAM system was introduced. So your 2006 Stern sounds still
> crappier than any 1995 B/W game. You also seem to forget even SEGA
> games had more ramps than the current single ramp games. And how often
> did you have to wait for 2 years or so for the software to be
> completed?
In the context of the arcade being relevant in the 90's, and no one
giving a shit about the arcade today - I'd say it's pretty amazing
that we got such excellent games from Stern. 2006's Sterns started
using SAM and DO sound as good or better than WPC'95. Number of ramps
don't instantly = better. If that was the case, wanna buy my
Goldeneye for $3000? $1000-per-ramp!!! ;) Stern's not perfect, but
considering the troubled coin-op market, they've made some stellar
games. Simpsons, Family Guy, Pirates, LOTR and a few others have held
their value and are in demand amongst collectors. A Black Spidey just
sold on RGP for over $7000 ....based on that alone, it's absolutely
ignorant to say they've been making the same type of games they did
when they were Sega.
> While anyone may think they should be happy Stern is around, to me it
> clearly is a company where the pinball spirit never lived, or died a
> long time ago. Gary Stern has no passion for pinball. He's kept
> pinball in a coma and if it was for him to say he would strip the
> games even more and charge more for them. That's the wrong way the
> cycle turns. It took JJP to wake somebody up and now all of a sudden
> working at Stern is fun and the most brilliant games will be designed?
> Get real.
If Stern had no passion for pinball, why didn't he just close the
company? He has no stockholders to answer to. He kept it open
because he thinks there should still be pinball out there. Sure, he's
not a master player, artist or a designer - he's made some bad
choices ....but again, with the shrinking coin-op market, his factory
has managed to crank out some really great and fun games. You can
shit on their 2010 games all you want for being cheap/stripped
down....and on the surface I'd agree with you - yes, they are stripped
down....but holy shit, did they find the right balance to make them
FUN and ADDICTING. I've played Iron Man and Avatar almost non-
stop....and guests at my house, pinball pros and pinball newbs, REALLY
like those games. What else can I say....the proof is in the fun.
Greg
Kyle Wren
Jonathan says...
>
>While anyone may think they should be happy Stern is around, to me it
>clearly is a company where the pinball spirit never lived, or died a
>long time ago. Gary Stern has no passion for pinball.
I understand clearly that we are all excited to see what JJP is able to produce
and bring to market. And I also understand that Stern has, at times, fallen
short of our collective expectations. I also know that some long-standing
supporters have become disenchanted with them and are joining forces with the
JJP movement. This is all well and fine.
But to be clear, without Gary Stern the newest game you would have been able to
play for the past 12 years would have been SWE1. Itself being a technical marvel
for it's time, in fact is powered by essentially a 486 level PC computer. Gary
has left nothing pinball related to "die", he has done what he felt like he had
to do to keep pinball alive, food on the table, and an entire factory filled
with people employed.
I hope Jack succeeds and we have two thriving companies to choose our products
from. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation folks. Can we at least see
what Jack is actually able to produce before we declare Stern dead? The one
thing I know from being on this group for a number of years: there will be folks
that won't be happy and will crap and complain about aspects of Jack's new game.
As sure as Derek will buy his sight unseen and sell it 3 weeks later, there will
be complaining... :-)
--
- Kyle
Keith P. Johnson
wrote:
>RFM slowly dropped off the Playmeter rankings and was never heard from
>again. They almost immediately began to be puked out at auctions and
>retailers for half of what they sold for the year before. They were
>regurgitated everywhere. Why? They didn't earn. Sure, it might've
>gotten the first quarters in, but it didn't have legs. It sold so
>many because they hyped it for so long, spent three times the money on
>it, on promotions, double or triple the design teams, and they had
>distributors pre-ordering it on hype in large numbers so they wouldn't
>be left out of the new pinball revolution. You can sell distributors
>and ops on hype, but hype doesn't fill the coin boxes. That's when
>RFM's house of cards came crashing down, when it had to really earn
>it's price back.
You're painting with some pretty broad brushes in general. I don't
think you can overestimate the influence that Williams' departure had
on people in terms of whether they kept their games for operating or
not. I know I'd be worried about operating equipment that breaks down
with no recourse or ability to fix it when it does.
>Nope. Try the playfield was several inches SHORTER than every single
>game they released for 10 years. It feels short, because it's
>shorter. They cut RFM short to old System 11 standards so that they
>could fit more in shipping containers to Europe. Sorry, I know
>everyone who loves P2k hates hearing that, but it's true. It's a
>shorter pin than any of the 90's DMD pins, and the screen in the
>middle makes it feel even shorter.
Yes, it is true the playfield went from 46" to 43" (which is still
longer than the 42" of the High Speed era), but it had nothing to do
with container sizes. It had to do with yield (particularly for the
cabinets), resulting in a significantly lower manufacturing cost.
>Nope, again. You may call it gibberish, but you're simply incorrect.
>How do I know? The market is dictated by what people like and don't
>like. RFM sold for more $$$ than any of those late 90's pins, and
>yet it's resale value is far, far less. AFM, MM, CV, MB, shit even
>CP sells for as much or more than RFM. RFM is $2000 all day long on a
>good day, and can be found for less. If 9 out of 10 people preferred
>RFM, then it'd be the other way around wouldn't it? ;) And don't
>try production numbers on me: "Oh, RFM isn't as rare, that's all."
>If it makes you feel better to say that the only reason AFM sells for
>three times what a RFM does is because of production numbers, then
>feel free. It does seem you like to live in a confused "Pinball
>2000" bubble anyway. A lot of people watched the movie TILT and got
>a lot of ideas in their heads, a lot of it is revisionist history,
>pure and simple. You love RFM, cool. Don't act like it was some
>missed revolution and that everyone loves it. Some love it, most
>don't.
To ignore the difference in production runs is pretty stupid, though.
I mean to use some of your examples, RFM is 2x+ AFM, 1.75x MM, 3.5x
CV, 2x MB, and 5x+ CP. This is from memory and might differ slightly
from reality, but not by much. To say that supply/demand factors are
not in play here is pretty disingenuous.
I appreciate in general what you're trying to say, and might even
agree with some of it. But you're definitely pushing a bit of POV
revisionist history yourself here.
keith
--
Further fora you can reach me:
twitter: @pinballkeefer
EFNet: #pinball (keefer)
Jason
> You're painting with some pretty broad brushes in general. I don't
> think you can overestimate the influence that Williams' departure had
> on people in terms of whether they kept their games for operating or
> not. I know I'd be worried about operating equipment that breaks down
> with no recourse or ability to fix it when it does.
Well, that's certainly something that wouldn't have helped, except
that from what I saw it wasn't operators trying to dump their MM's,
MB's and AFM's. If it was a landslide of "Oh, anything with
Williams on it, get it out of here cause they went under" then I'd see
that point. While it didn't help, I don't think RFM's Playmeter
struggles were entirely or even mostly tied to Williams closing its
doors.
> Yes, it is true the playfield went from 46" to 43" (which is still
> longer than the 42" of the High Speed era), but it had nothing to do
> with container sizes. It had to do with yield (particularly for the
> cabinets), resulting in a significantly lower manufacturing cost.
Gotcha. Well, fitting more in the containers is the reason someone
gave once, and I can't remember if it was George or Duncan...? But
the point is the same, the game was made shorter to lower costs, make
something cheaper, etc. Of ALL the areas to cut the cost of a
pinball machine, making it shorter is just about the worst compromise
imaginable. At least, to me. I drove 4 hours round trip on a
Friday night when the first RFM was on location in Orlando, and on my
very first game I said "Wow, this feels short!" I know the illusion
of the monitor disconnects the player from the ball and adds to short
feeling, but I always hated when people would say "No, no, it's not
shorter. It's actually LONGER!" I was like "Huh? There's just no
way" And of course they are saying "Oh, if you were to go back to
1987 and play one of those pins, then this would be about the same
size or an inch longer." Well, it was Pinball TWO-m'fn-THOUSAND
wasn't it? I always found that to be the dumbest argument ever.
> To ignore the difference in production runs is pretty stupid, though.
> I mean to use some of your examples, RFM is 2x+ AFM, 1.75x MM, 3.5x
> CV, 2x MB, and 5x+ CP. This is from memory and might differ slightly
> from reality, but not by much. To say that supply/demand factors are
> not in play here is pretty disingenuous.
You are right in that I chose the wrong way to illustrate my point.
What I was trying to say originally is that the vast majority of
pinheads and collectors would prefer to play one of the better later
model DMD machines over RFM. I think if the majority, or even a
strong minority, preferred to play Pinball 2000 (preferred, mind you)
over the best late model DMD pins, then you would not see RFM's and
SWEP1's selling for $1800, not when every other thing Williams did
leading up to that is so much higher in resale.
>
> I appreciate in general what you're trying to say, and might even
> agree with some of it. But you're definitely pushing a bit of POV
> revisionist history yourself here.
>
> keith
I always appreciate thoughtful responses as opposed to calling one of
my posts "gibberish." ;) Sometimes when you live and play pinball
through a time (the years leading up to P2k, during, after, present
day) and see and hear the opinions day in and day out, what happens,
how prices change, what games are dumped, what games just got cheap,
it can become difficult to put all of that into factual evidence, even
when a picture is very clear to yourself.
Certainly didn't mean to push any revisionist history, but I know for
the past couple years that movie "TILT" had so many guys who are
newish/semi-new to pinball going "Why was it abandoned? It's the
greatest thing ever! They didn't give it a chance! It's the future
of pinball!" And going out to put a new RFM in their house and feel
like they had the secret abandoned answer to all of pinball's problems
if only someone had just given it a chance. RFM and SWEP1 were not
secrets. They were out on locations in large quantities and heralded
like a prophecy. Could Wizard Blocks have been the success they
weren't? Maybe. There's so much pinball news coming out I am half-
expecting Gene to announce pre-orders soon. ;)
Brian Munn
It always amazes me the ignorance people have with the true market.
There are collectors who will buy selectively what they like. Your
auguments are good here. But I think you are clueless when it comes
to what it takes for the future of pinball which is the younger
generation and what they like. P2K hits the sweet spot here. Hey why
don't you try a study (you or Stern or JJP). Line up old pins Some
EM, SS, DMD, P2K. Then have 200 14-19 year olds come thru and do a
study of what they like and don't like. One thing I know for sure is
your or my opinion don't mean squat if we care about the future of
pinball.
Brian
Detroit Pinball
Lloyd Olson
accurate results is the 200 14-19 year olds would have to venture in on
their own. And use their own money to play.
LTG :)
"Brian Munn" <bdm...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c2430a04-9f17-427c...@o21g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Jason
>
> - Show quoted text -
Brian, you are right in that 14-19 year olds are going to be
captivated more by something that has visuals, looks cutting edge, hi-
tech and everything else. But Joe K proved that a good license can
overcome quite a bit. Those same 14-19 year olds were walking by
RFM's to put quarters in SP's in 1999. Of course the answer isn't
EM, Alpha-num, etc. you know that. But I don't know that the answer
is to try and compete visually with the level of entertainment a 14-19
year old has at their fingertips. No matter what visuals you put on
it, when that kid goes home and turns on his PS3, you just got
smoked. Mechanical action playfields they do NOT have in their
homes.
Can great visuals help in the appeal of those mechanics in action?
Absolutely! But the screen can't cut the playfield in half,
disconnect the player from the ball, ALWAYS be on, feel claustraphobic
compared to a standard pin, etc. I'm not trying to be anti-evolution
for pinball. I'm simply saying learn from the mistakes of Pinball
2000, the complaints players made about it, and remember that it's not
going to be a great pin without a great playfield. I really wanted
to like Pinball 2000 and still think it LOOKS pretty cool. But I just
never liked playing it much at all.
frenchy
> On Mar 1, 7:52 pm, Rompen <rompe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The only thing that's going to open a new market is new technology.
> > The only thing that's going to open a new market in pinball is if
> people start giving a shit about playing coin-op games again! Stern
> (or pinball in general) can't bring back the cultural relevance of the
> arcade.> Greg>>
Bingo, amusement in general has just plain dried up in today's
internet-Playstation-Xbox world. P2K's extra costs would just drive a
manufacturer out of business even quicker. Hardly anybody wants to
play pins or videogames on location anymore, but let's mix them
together and everybody will flock in? And for SURE the collectors/
home buyers are not going to embrace P2K, they are WAY more oriented
to pure pinball than the 'whatever' public.
Today it's just a matter of staying afloat with something that can
still legitimately be called a pinball, or give it up and make
exercise equipment or slot machines ; )