The REAL Clay Harrell (Beware: Long and obscene)

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Ned Ledod

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Feb 3, 2010, 9:22:21 PM2/3/10
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I have tried in the past to praise the work of Clay Harrell and
minimize his bad side, but this is too much. In the last few months he
has cut down Tim Arnold, Richard Conger and many others. Now Jim
Schelberg. These people have done way too much for the hobby to be
treated this way. I'm 58 years old now and I do not care what the
consequences are.

The following was sent to me by Jim yesterday pertaining to the latest
issue of the Pingame Journal. Please read and decide for yourself.
Dennis Dodel

Dennis ... I was thinking of sending you this but now with the latest
stunt
clay has pulled and seeing your post, I think you'll enjoy it ....
it's
nearly 5:30 am and I have to be up in an hour or two for work but I've
been
up ever since I was alerted to the posting of my magazine on line ...
before
everyone has even had it .. including me ... I sent a group eamil you
probably got but .. I have SO much to say ... I'm just gonig to stop
for
now and give you a good dose of what it's like working with clay ...
this IS
long, but it's only a taste of the whole experience ...

written on 1-15-10 to give tell the story of 138 and what it’s like
dealing
with Clay ….

There's going to be a big explosion when this issue gets to people,
specifically Clay. (that's the posting of the issue) He's is not going
to be
happy. It all MAY explode before
then, but me and Gary Flower are trying get it out and in people's
hands
before that happens but we're dealing with a loose canon here and it
may go
off at any time ....

a little background ... I made a deal with the devil letting Clay do
these
issues altogether. It was felt by Gary Flower that I needed to get
some
issues out last year, even though I wasn't feeling well and since
Clay
offered to help, we should let him. I knew Clay had the potential for
disaster but Gary felt he could manage him so I reluctantly agreed. I
think
Clay is great in short bursts but as the issues became "ClayGame
Journals" I
was getting worried. It's his way or no way, all Clay of no Clay so
there
were a number of fires that needed to be put out along the way, but as
far
as I know I got to them before they got too big although his actions
caused
me to do a number of things with the publication schedule and other
stuff I
didn't want to do and they caused ongoing problems.

Fast forward to Pinball Expo ... James Loflin got a TON, and I mean
TON of
stuff from Gene Cunningham who got it when Williams closed. BOXES and
BOXES.
James had the stuff at Expo and was opening it for the first time,
letting
people look at this and that ... Gary told me this was happening but I
was
trying to be in three places at the same time and couldn't get over
there.
Clay did and apparently took some photos of stuff.

Part of it included cool drawings from Python Anghelo of Fish tales,
and a
proposed Madonna game including nude sketches and some very personal
stuff
like check requests, other payment info and personal letters from
Python to
Williams complaining about being removed from a project and not
getting
paid, etc ..

So I get the draft of issue 138 and Clay has the Madonna playfield
and
backglass drawings, as well as Fish Tales and prelim Popeye art which
are
VERY cool and interesting ... however .. he also included a full body
nude
sketch of Madonna, financial documents with amounts Python was
paid or requesting and a letter from Python complaining to Ken
Fedesna
about how he has been treated. Again, VERY interesting, but I feel
it's not
the kind of stuff that should appear in print, it's just not the kind
of
thing that's right to do, so I have told him we can't print that
stuff ..

You might think he'd say .. oh, ok, I'll fix it and we'd move on from
there
...... wow, if only it went from my mouth to God's ears ...

Back up a little ... Clay has a history of handing out threats if he
doesn't
get his way. For one thing he was pumping out issues like crazy and
wanted
each one in the mail NOW ....he had this fear that I was going to not
print
or use a whole issue .. that's nuts, but he felt that way .....
getting
issues out fast may sound great, but I had to deal with subscriptions
and
give people time to renew which they weren't used to doing with issues
a few
weeks apart so I'd hold them a bit to let some time pass between
them.
There's a lot to look at and deal with as far as distribution of the
magazine goes besides just getting the issues done .. Clay wouldn't
see that
eventhough it was explained many times .... but I would read stuff
like this
from Clay ...

"gary. again i really need to stress this. either my issue is in the
mail
this week, or i'm publishing my issue electronically over the weekend
(obviously remove the ads and the PGJ references.) i do NOT trust
jim. i
will NOT let my work be like those that get sent to jim, and then
shelved
and forgotten. jim has a history of this.

so bottom line. either my issue gets in the mail, or it gets in the
Email.
if it goes to email i won't be doing any other issues for jim in the
future
(obviously.) So if his ego is that big, so be it. but he's cutting
his own
throat as far as loosing this issue and any other future issues.

frankly i kind of hope he cuts his own throat. i don't need this. the
PGJ is
too much work with NO reward. and jim is a mess, a mess i would rather
not
deal with."

SO .. Gary and I avoided any action by him and we moved forward that
was
issue 134 ..

To be fair, there were times that we actually worked together.... kind
of
.... he demanded his issue, 134 be printed and mailed, but I had some
stuff
in the next issue, 135 that had to be out too. I preposed we put some
of
his issues and some of mine in each issue, but remember, it's all Clay
or no
clay, so he refused to do that so I decided to send them out
together ..
just one of the moves that has caused and will cause all kinds of
trouble
with the post office and subscribers and records and ....... but, I
sent him
the text of my little editorial for "his" issue, 134 and he replied

"note i changed your words just slightly. there was potentially a
problem
with the way you worded the "two issues in one package" thing. Where
it made
it sound like it was ONE big issue. meaning that your "8 issues a
year"
argument could have been disputed. I changed the wording just slightly
so
it's clear there are 2 separate issues, with the implied thinking that
the
number TWO goes against their subscription count! otherwise you may
have
had some arguments whether this counted as "one" or "two" issues
against
their subscription."

That's GREAT ... it's a team, we understand how other people feel and
might
take something the wrong way and we want to be clear and accurate.
Love it.
Also, when I asked him if I could take photos of his games for the
calendar
.. it was fine, great, come on over, do you want to use my lights? can
I
open any games for you? don't forget to get a shot of those prototype
drop
targets or that toy on the playfield, help yourself to a coke in the
fridge,
etc, etc ...

SO, I get the calendar to the printer and let Clay have a LOOK ONLY
password
to see it on the printer's web site and get this ....

"jim, i saw the calendar on the printer portal. wow looks great,
especially
the cover. i had money down you wouldn't have this finished by PPE.
nice
work.

but you do really piss me off. you put a full page ad in for IPdb,
but
nothing about pinrepair.com. what the hell? do i have to come over and
blow
you or something? how much do i have to do for you to get the same
treatment
other people get? what do the IPDB guys cover your ass for the year
and put
out some other magazine you have? what am i missing here?

it's really to the point where i don't want to help you. talk about
an
unbalanced equation. what do i have commit my whole breathing life to
you
before you will even give back 30 seconds? talk about being taken for
granted. if i want to be taken for granted to this extreme i think
i'll just
follow my wife around all day. you are an asshole."

I explained how I threw it together late one night and realized I had
an
empty page and could have done a lot of things, but I always like to
help
the IPDB and I had an ad that they supplied me with in a variety of
sizes
for times like this and I just popped it in .. it's not an issue, it's
a
calendar ... I said, "Honestly, if I had a pinrepair full page I would
have
used it. or a half page or a little "box" ad for the month pages
but I
didn't. I WISH I had a ad like that to just pop in, but I don't. I do
have a
variety of sizes of IPDB ads to use when needed. hint hint." and
got

"you're lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part!
actually ALL your problems seem to stem from a lack of planning.

christ you could have scanned the pinrepair.com ad from any prior pgj
issue.
you didn't try very hard. and you didn't ASK for an ad either, which i
could
have provide QUICKLY.

and worse, you had nearly 2 pages you needed to fill?? HOW ABOUT
CONTENT???
DUH. people subscribe because it's a MAGAZINE not a calender! we
could have
put some content in there making it more than just a stupid calender.
again you didn't ask."

Sometimes I think .. maybe if I talk to him like he talks to me I can
get
someplace so I replied:
"we could argue all day. you do your crap your way I do my crap my way
and
neither is gonna change. But if you wanted or want an ad for your
fucking
piss ass little video
projects that no one likes anyway, then make sure I HAVE the fucking
ads to
put in LIKE EVERBODY ELSE! you dumb ass. I hate you."

and he said ...

"there's a lot of differences here. YOU do NOTHING for me. NOTHING.
you're a
pimple on my ass.
Me on the other hand, saved your magazine for 2009. WHERE'S THE
PAYBACK
BITCH?
you get the point? you're useless."

SO ... Fast forward to the PPE ... I was sitting in the lecture hall
talking
to Gary and a few other people between presentations and from one INCH
to my
ear, behind me I hear at a loud, yelling level SCHELBERG! ARE YOU
STUPID????? I turn around to see Clay in my face and calmly say What
are you
talking about? continuing yelling, with the 20 or people in the room
looking
on, DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT DISPLAY??? YOU DON'T HAVE ISSUES
SHOWING
AT YOUR BOOTH YOU IDIOT. I gathered all my control and quietly said ..
clay
... can we talk about this a little later? NO! WE CAN'T YOU'RE JUST
STUPID
AND I HAD TO FIX YOUR SHIT. .... I said ok, I'll go look and left
(mostly to
stop the conversation) and found that clay had gone INTO my booth,
INTO my
stuff, and pulled out an issue or two, opening them to the page of his
"game
room photo of the month" page and standing it up. That's wrong on a
number
of levels, but this is getting too long so I won't go into it further.
I
wasn't happy.
Back to this issue ....

The cover ... clay had an overall shot of the PPE floor, but with the
lights
on, not very dramatic and some photo of the production office of the
people
who made the Special When Lit video and one of a sign at the front of
the
new Pinball Hall of Fame. the issue had stories about both the PPE
and
PInball Expo but only the PPE was on the cover and he made the PPE
sound
like the best show in the world and PInball Expo sound like it was a
piece
of junk, not worth talking about let alone going to. It took a number
of
discussions to get him to soften that a bit and make it a little more
balenced but it still, to this day, is 70%PPE 30% Expo I can only get
him
to do so much ...

to cut this saga a bit I'll paraphrase ... clay did a cover that
showed the
PPE (not the photo I used) and no photos of Expo .. his coverage
inside,
even in the version you have is pretty slanted toward the PPE and
against
Expo. Me and gary had to fight to get him to re write much of the expo
stuff
to make it less negative. Clay thinks I used his cover. I had to try
to
balance out his lack of coverage of Expo with a few photos on the
cover so I
did .. that's the first thing Clay won't be happy about. (the printing
came
out a little dark, but my point is that the PPE has a TON of games and
is
cool for that, but really it's not much more. Expo has the variety
that no
one else can match)

but here are a few clay comments about Expo ...

Chicago Expo is DEAD. it's nothing but a money grab.
don't try and make it out to be anything more than that.
it's hardly the greatest show on earth. it's crap.

BUT berk and pacak are NOT trying to make a better pinball show.
they are ALL ABOUT THE MONEY.
The show is on cruise-control. the ONLY reason it gets
any better is because people OTHER THAN berk and pacak
step up to make it better.

at least the PPE guys are a non-profit. and they have VOLUNTEERS.
berk can't get anyone to volunteer because those guys are
ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. why isn't there 400 games at chicago?
because no one want to support those jerks!

even the Koz tournament was ALL ABOUT THE MONEY.
Koz made over $1000 doing that. pacak got a cut.
i volunteered to do it and was CUT DOWN because i
demanded low entry fees and no cut for expo.
all money back to the players!

It just makes me SICK. berk and pacak don't care about
pinball. it's ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. and you, being
the dummy you are, just plays right into their hands.

NOW TO The Python stuff

... first, he titled it "The Craziness of Python Angehlo" Why
"craziness"
why not "creativity" ??? He wouldn't change it .... it took a number
of
discussions between Gary and Clay, me and Gary and sometimes me and
Clay,
but he agreed to blur out the first figure of the payments, cover up
the
nude sketch, somewhat and also cover the original photo from the
Madonna sex
book ... and use the account of how the game came about that I wrote
after
talking to people like Roger Sharpe who was there, instead of the
fantasy he
wrote (again, see attachment)

But he would not budge on the letter .. you can read it, ... don't get
me
wrong .. VERY interesting but it is a personal letter that, along with
the
other personal stuff, never should have left Williams and should have
been
shreded. Roger told me they were so fed up with pinball they didn't
even
bother looking in the boxes when they sold the stuff to Gene, but that
kind
of stuff never should have been let out and if it's printed, besides
the
imorality of it, it could wake up the Williams lawyers and I might be
getting a letter from them ... I've asked about 20 people so far and
they
all from hobby people to James, the owner of the stuff, to Larry DeMar
and
Roger and they ALL say no way, that should NOT appear in print
anywhere ...
I'll presume you agree.

at one point I told him a number things ... about Roger's comments,
how
Chuck Hess wanted to pull his Nucore ad because the issue was not
going to
be out before xmas (Clay's response is a mystery) , that Rob Berk
asked that
we not use the clay-invented CPE for Chicago Pinball Expo to separate
it
from the PPE or Pacific Pinball Exposition (that's a whole other
issue .. I
feel it is, to be kind, unfortunate that Schiess picked that name for
their
show and commonly shorten it to Pacific PInball Expo and even more
unfortunate to just Expo .. there is only one "Expo" and that's in
Chicago
... ) there's an article on the video Special When Lit that he cut
about 1/3
out of and made the photos really small, and in the interest of
accuracy,
python is talking about art when he says "design concept" the ART
design
concept not the playfield, not the game .. but clay says something
like "I
bet you thought Mark Ritchie designed Fish Tales ... apparently not "
I told
clay it was between Python and Pat McMahon, not Ritchie ..... so we
got this
gem ....

schelberg you are a PUSSY. will you ever have a backbone?

does the NY Times call the white house to make sure
all their articles are "Ok" by them?

(actually YES they do... )

does it matter if you piss off williams? WHO CARES?
last i checked the only person you should be sucking
up to is gary stern.

i'm not really interested in making huge changes.
I can make some but i'm not redesigning the whole thing.
there's other things for me to do. i will make subtle
changes and that's all.

if you don't like it, i'll release it on my own. why do i
have to say this on EVERY issue? you have stupid
concerns that NEVER cause any problems.

you have 1000 subscribers. they're pinheads.
you're not sending this piece of shit magazine to
1/2 of of the world. it's not even on newstands!
PLEASE get a fucking grip.

Yea and like Roger Sharpe really scares me.
he's a big pussy too. do me a favor and next
time you talk to him, tell him and his fucking
stupid kids to FUCK OFF.

but this is what i am willing to do...

i can gray out the actual dollar amounts on the python thing.
that's easy and doesn't involve major redesign. i guess i can
take the madona sex book pic out too. small redesign but
not too bad. i think it loses the point of why they got the
madonna opportunity. Also taking out nude madonna
TOTALLY loses the whole point of the article. And i blacked
out all the good parts, so you're safe. But it makes your
SHITTY LITTLE magazine that much more SHITTY.
but hey, you like SHITTY. since you've been a spineless
fish your whole life putting out a useless magazine
that has no edge, and no real reporting.

i always thought chuck hess was an asshole.
now that's confirmed. i'll keep him in my book
of "official assholes." when i interviewed him for
the nucore thing last issue he just BLEED arrogance.

i'm not gonna change the special when lit thing. all
i cut was his fucking ramblings about nothing, or
about the sex industry in soho. that article does NOT
warrant more than one page. it's cute, but not much
to chew on there. i would like to cut it more to make
the pictures larger. but then his story really does
suffer.

i can change the CPE references. but frankly i thought
it was a good thing to call it CPE. removes all confusion.
FUCK pacak and berk if they "don't get it." this just
confirms AGAIN that they are dickheads too. Did you
know they wanted to sue PPE over the usage of the
word "expo"? WHAT PRICKS. Maybe they should
spend energy making their shitty show better instead
of suing people over nothing.

According to THE LETTER from python, Fishtales
WAS HIS DESIGN. He had been talking about it since
1990. It's right there in black and white. now what
does ritchie say about that? WHO THE FUCK CARES?
it's an article about PYTHON not about ritchie!
if you want to do an article about mark ritchie and
say he designed fish tales, then fine. but this article
is about CRAZY PYTHON.

IF YOU TAKE THE 'CRAZY' OUT OF PYTHON THE
WHOLE ARTICLE LOSES IT'S ZEST.

stop trying to water down everything. it serves
no purpose. python doesn't care anyway.

do you get this schelberg? i can't believe how fucking
stupid and weak you are. Grow a spine. Print a real
magazine, divorce that wife, tell your kids to fucking
grown up, and live a real life. It's embarrassing to
even know you sometimes.

So it came down to the letter ... the letter that everyone says not
to
print. I told him that James Loflin, said he didn't want that printed
and
got:

bull fucking shit. i sat there for TWO HOURS photographing stuff and
he knew
EXACTLY what i was doing with it.

don't try and make your fucked up point of view everyone else's.
you're
molding his words to fit your pussy life plan. and stop calling
everyone
"asking for permission" when that was already done. again you're
trying to
get them to change their tune to fit your pussy plan.

you can have your shitty, no content, uninteresting, bullshit magazine
back.
YOU MAKE IT SUCK. you can't produce anything of value, and what you
do
produce BLOWS. are you getting this? YOUR SHIT STINKS. your magazine
has
sucked for years because you're a pussy. perhaps you should trying
getting
your balls back from your bitch wife and try them on for a change.
People
may actually have some respect for your worthless piece of shit
magazine if
it had some ACTUAL content for a change.

One of my favorite clay rants, hope you liked it ....

so after a little more ... I get

this is IT.
if you don't like it, fuck off, and it goes out as the first issue of
CoinMan.
if it works for you, i will upload the large printer files.
if the copy i receive in my email is ANY different than this,
again, it goes out electronically. so don't think about taking
the PDF files and modifying them

COINMAN, you may ask? Yes .. Clay actually made up his own magazine to
put
all his content in. Now we can talk about the legality etc off all
this but
that's not going to stop clay ...

if this is not approved at the printer by tonight,
it goes out to the world in PDF form tomorrow morning.
I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT LOFLIN.

and (to Gary Flower)

as i told you before, Loflin had NO problem with what i was doing and
publishing it.
NO problem. schelberg went and fucked this up.

i'm gonna tell you this ONE MORE TIME.

"a fuck up on YOUR part does not constitute an emergency or change on
MY
part."

are you two a tag-team fuck ups or what?
I ask you to read and comment on the articles. you have PLENTY of time
to
get this done. i give you CONSTANT updates.

again, like jim, you wait to the last second.

"a fuck up on YOUR part (or jim's part) does not constitute an
emergency or
change on MY part."

i'm doing all the work here. i expect as part of the PGJ team you to
work in
a timely manner.
This, i don't believe, is a lot to ask. Yes you will have to spend an
hour
here or there to read my shit.
but this is SMALL compared to the DAYS of effort i put into this!

as far as jim, he's a complete disaster. he can fuck up a wet dream.

"it's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission."
But in reality i HAD PERMISSION from Loflin.
and now you guys decide to fuck that all up?
sorry, but i invested A LOT of time and energy into this project.
i'm not going to have "diaster jim schelberg" screw that up.

JUST in case you think I am making more of this and because I'm
quoting all
this insane Clay stuff and not all the calm, measured emails I and
gary sent
.. here's little quote form James Loflin ...

Here's my position, I do not want this personal stuff to get out as it
does
effect the people involved. I don't consider myself culpable in this
matter
as I did not realize Clay had the intentions of actually posting the
photo,
at worse I figured he would use the info as a reference.

You are correct, since he does not give a "rats ass" about me I can
assure
you that he will not have access to ANY additional information I have
and I
can assure you that I have heaps. I called and left him a message to
return
my call yesterday, I have not heard from him.

so we move on ....

Clay to Gary---just make sure he understands that if the printed
version is
in any way different than the version i submitted, Coinman Magazine
starts
up with my version of the article (or i release PGJ issue #138 as a
PDF to
the public with my version of that article.)

FOR awhile, this was REALLY bothering me .. I even went as far as to
take
his PDF make some changes and I was going to release the issue MYSELF,
on my
site, as an Xmas present to the readers and deflate Clay's threats ..
yes
it would "wreck" an issue but I would have felt SOOOOO good doing
it ..
however, the quality of what had would not let me do an adaquate job
so
after I stayed up all one night, in the morning I realized it couldn't
be
done ...

recently I asked the printer to cancel his password to see the issue
because
i was going to make some changes and I didn't want him to see them ..
he
wrote to Gary

i do believe JS is or has changed the python article. i believe this
because
i can no longer look at the printer portal. which of course leads me
to
believe he did change the article so i can't see what the printer
has.

he's cutting his own throat. i mean it's one thing to have Loflin mad
(like
who cares about that, loflin doesn't stay mad long, and frankly he's
probably not mad anyway.) but now he's going down a path where i do a
month
online magazine. it will sink the PGJ (and maybe gameroom too.) he's
taking
a HUGE risk and for what?

and FINALLY ... today .. Gary got this statement ...

find out when 138 is being printed. because if it doesn't happen this
week,
i'm back to proceeding with COIN MAN magazine.

SOOOO ... I figured the more people who actually HAVE the issue before
he
does the better .. whatever he puts up on line AFTER people have the
issue
doesn't really matter to me much. There still may be some copyright
issues
but we'll have to see what he does if anything. This REALLY bothered
me for
a while .. for a month or two actually .. but I'm pretty much done
with it
now and will try not to care what he does ...... I'm a little upset
be
cause I removed the entire amount from those pay requests but forgot
a few
on one page. but this is very different from what he gave me and
depending
on his mood when he finds out it could be interesting.

SO, here we are with him putting the mag on line. He is throwing
copyright
issues in my face and I'll be talking to a lawyer about that. I wonder
if he
really things he did anything wrong. Anyway, I'm not sure what I'm
going to
do but I DO have to get some sleep ... so good night (morning) maybe
I'll
wake up and it will all have been a dream.

I DO want to do the comic issue ... Im' thinking of the issue with the
Stern
game Iron Man in it ... should be in a few months. right before the
movie
comes out ... we'll talk .. later, JIM


MrBally

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 9:33:18 PM2/3/10
to

Man, I just finished a bowl of popcorn....really. Now I've got to get
something else to snack on while reading this one.

chuck

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 9:40:23 PM2/3/10
to
On Feb 3, 9:22 pm, Ned Ledod <pinb...@charter.net> wrote:
<original content snipped>

Ned,

Did you have permission to post this from Jim? I would hate to think
this was a personal message to you that Jim never intended to be
public.

ldnayman

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 9:44:18 PM2/3/10
to
I fail to see what the big deal is.

so

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 9:52:56 PM2/3/10
to
Jesus, does everything have to end up on the internet?.

cal50

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 9:58:51 PM2/3/10
to
On Feb 3, 9:22 pm, Ned Ledod <pinb...@charter.net> wrote:
> ear, behind me I hear at a loud, yelling ...
>
> read more »


Lighten up Francis.....

Grojohn

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:02:36 PM2/3/10
to
no need for this, report as spam

matt

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:02:54 PM2/3/10
to
> ear, behind me I hear at a loud, yelling ...
>
> read more »

TL;DR

Beemus

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:15:26 PM2/3/10
to
To summarize...
"you don't appreciate me"
"well YOU don't appreciate ME"
"that's cuz YOU don't appreciate ME"
repeat...

When it stops being fun walk away.

Pinball drama... lol.

kirb

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:22:37 PM2/3/10
to
> ear, behind me I hear at a loud, yelling ...
>
> read more »

No real need to fuel the fires that you have no stake in.

You are getting one side of the story and trying to pry the other side
out in defense...while you look like some kind of savior. Not cool.
You should have let this die between the parties involved.

Kirb

Pinball Life

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:23:48 PM2/3/10
to
Writing and publishing a magazine sounds fun :-)
Terry.


Drewscruis

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:29:04 PM2/3/10
to
On Feb 3, 10:23�pm, Pinball Life

<pinballlifeworldheadquart...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Writing and publishing a magazine sounds fun :-)
> Terry.

this will be a fun thread to watch.

Lloyd Olson

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:35:38 PM2/3/10
to
Hard to say. Went up late and will be deep in other postings by morning. If
it went up at 8am EST on a Monday morning, it would be quite the week on
RGP.

"Drewscruis" <Drews...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:01433244-4358-4ad7...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

ldnayman

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:35:47 PM2/3/10
to
On Feb 3, 7:23 pm, Pinball Life

<pinballlifeworldheadquart...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Writing and publishing a magazine sounds fun :-)
> Terry.

LOL

falconfixer

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:37:39 PM2/3/10
to
That's it! I'm selling all my machines and going back to being a
supermodel!

We have a saying in the military when somebody gets upset. We say
"MPH". It stands for "My Pu$$y Hurts.

This probably should have been left for the court system and the
lawyers. I think a disclaimer on the magazine website about the
electronic version not being what the publisher wanted would have
sufficed.

Dave

Carl

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:39:24 PM2/3/10
to
I just read all of that. What is the prize?


Joey

falconfixer

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:44:18 PM2/3/10
to
On Feb 3, 10:39 pm, Carl <joeyc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just read all of that.  What is the prize?
>
> Joey

A free issue of Pin Game Journal!

Dave

qbert-wpc

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:45:55 PM2/3/10
to
On Feb 3, 8:44 pm, ldnayman <ldnay...@aol.com> wrote:
> I fail to see what the big deal is.

The big deal is that Clay is a complete egotistical douchebag, that
most of y'all still fail to see. How much of those so called "guides"
did he actually write? Have y'all ever wondered why he doesn't offer
them in print form? Doesn't anyone find it surprising that *after*
some unique tech tip is posted here, it appears on his sight without
credit? And seriously, the attitude..."hey newbie, why don't you fuck
off and read MY fucking guide, then come back here" is a little
harsh...

And that's just the icing on the cake...

Lloyd Olson

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:45:59 PM2/3/10
to
I believe a subscription to Coin Man when it goes on line.

"Carl" <joey...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:373c1850-c900-4c20...@k41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

Mark Clayton

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:48:49 PM2/3/10
to
Or change the publisher's name to Alan Smithee.

Sad to hear all this, really.

-Mark
-----
http://pinballpal.com

ldnayman

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 10:50:23 PM2/3/10
to
On Feb 3, 7:45 pm, qbert-wpc <qbert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 3, 8:44 pm, ldnayman <ldnay...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I fail to see what the big deal is.
>
> The big deal is that Clay is a complete egotistical douchebag

So? Why is that a big deal?

I don't care.

metallik

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 11:03:24 PM2/3/10
to
> did he actually write? Have y'all ever wondered why he doesn't offer
> them in print form?

Who cares?

wget -rb http://www.pinrepair.com | lp -s -dprinter1

Solved.

> some unique tech tip is posted here, it appears on his sight without
> credit?

Hey, at least someone is saving this stuff. Google sure is sucking
lately. Speaking of saving things, looks like it's time to make
another local copy... drama sometimes causes "technical difficulties"
with pinrepair.com :)

Dr. Dave

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 11:10:31 PM2/3/10
to
This would have been a great piece on Kelly's PINHEAD CLASSIFIED in
the GRIPPIN' DRAMA section.

(Boy do I miss that magazine....)


DR

Rick Swanson

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 11:10:31 PM2/3/10
to
On Feb 3, 9:22 pm, Ned Ledod <pinb...@charter.net> wrote:
>  I have tried in the past to praise the work of Clay Harrell and
> minimize his bad side, but this is too much.

Just a family squabble I suspect.

Clay is an extraordinarily talented and creative man who prefers to be
in control, doesn't mind expressing and defending his opinions, and
has seemingly endless energy. A bunch of very creative people fit
that exact same description. I recognized all those traits in Clay 10
years ago after watching the first 20 minutes of the first TOP tape I
bought. Over the years he has from time to time expressed opinions
that I didn't agree with, he has even made me mad on a couple of
occasions, but my respect for him and what he has done for our hobby
has never diminished. I've found over the years that truly creative
people are truly complex people... and complexity isn't always
pretty. In my opinion, Clay is no exception to that observation.

I wouldn't have come to this hobby, nor had the opportunity to
befriend so many of the great people who are here, if Clay had not
taken the time, energy and effort to make his repair guides accessible
to me. I can't thank him enough for doing so. I'll bet I'm not
alone.


Rick Swanson
cargpb6

Mark Clayton

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 11:17:46 PM2/3/10
to
Please don't suck the whole site. pinrepair.com is
hosted on my server as a courtesy to Clay, and while it's
on a dedicated server, it will hit very expensive transfer
limits should tons of people do this.

There are enough people that have already done it, so
there's no danger of the site being "lost", and if the
server does approach its (very high) data transfer quota,
I WILL BE FORCED to take down pinrepair temporarily to
avoid getting hit with a big over-quota bill.

-Mark
-----
http://pinballpal.com

Message has been deleted

metallik

unread,
Feb 3, 2010, 11:48:20 PM2/3/10
to
Ahh ok. I'm still thinking back to when it was hosted on Jeremy's
porn servers (probably was just a drop in the bandwidth bucket for
them).

A buddy of mine has a recent archive so I hadn't pulled the trigger
anyway. Fortunately, not too many people know how to use wget so
hopefully the site is safe :)

On Feb 3, 11:17 pm, Mark Clayton <spamuser1...@i87.com> wrote:
> Please don't suck the whole site.  pinrepair.com is
> hosted on my server as a courtesy to Clay, and while it's
> on a dedicated server, it will hit very expensive transfer
> limits should tons of people do this.
>
> There are enough people that have already done it, so
> there's no danger of the site being "lost", and if the
> server does approach its (very high) data transfer quota,
> I WILL BE FORCED to take down pinrepair temporarily to
> avoid getting hit with a big over-quota bill.
>
> -Mark

> -----http://pinballpal.com


>
> metallik wrote:
> >> did he actually write? Have y'all ever wondered why he doesn't offer
> >> them in print form?
>
> > Who cares?
>

> > wget -rbhttp://www.pinrepair.com| lp -s -dprinter1

Daniel

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 12:13:56 AM2/4/10
to

Fred Kemper

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 12:24:25 AM2/4/10
to
Yep, pretty much what I expected... :(

Exactly the poor kind of representation of the pinball
hobby I spoke of as well. When he doesn't get what he
wants, he just takes.

Look at ME! LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!!!!


Well, Jim, you're not the first person he's done this to.

(And I know you _won't_ be the last.)

--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************

"Ned Ledod" <pin...@charter.net> wrote
...


>I have tried in the past to praise the work of Clay Harrell and

>minimize his bad side, but this is too much. In the last few months he
>has cut down Tim Arnold, Richard Conger and many others. Now Jim
>Schelberg. These people have done way too much for the hobby to be
>treated this way. I'm 58 years old now and I do not care what the
>consequences are.

<snipped>


Ron, (Boatcat)

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 1:55:40 AM2/4/10
to
>Clay had the potential for disaster but Gary felt
>he could manage him so I reluctantly agreed.

Unfortunately, your screening process
with regard to employment was non-existant,
probably relying on no more than reputation. I'm
equally as disappointed in you guys for not doing
this type of research before taking Clay on!

jeff

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 2:09:30 AM2/4/10
to
I might as well post since I've already got about 45 minutes of my
life into this damn thread... and before the post count hits 1,000.

I'd say to Jim...time to abolish that partnership, duh. It's Jim's
mag to do with what he will, so DO it. If Clay's gonna play
extortionist then let him do it, and sue him when he does. Get him
out of your life and move on. Don't ever turn over control of YOUR
business to someone else, that's the first mistake.

Jeff Scott

Eric Schmitt

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 2:17:48 AM2/4/10
to

> Jesus, does everything have to end up on the internet?.

Very little does in the grand scheme of things.

Eric Schmitt

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 2:24:42 AM2/4/10
to
obscene? Maybe I missed that part or did you mean obscenely long?
Basically we are looking at a difference of opinions and some people
can get a little passionate. More time I've spent in this pinball
hobby the more I've noticed this population is a
little...well...different. Not in a bad way (usually) and that doesnt
include everyone....your odds are just higher.

Tony Holdgate

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 2:40:39 AM2/4/10
to
"Doesn't anyone find it surprising that *after*
some unique tech tip is posted here, it appears on his sight without
credit?":

No - I don't. I often email Clay and ask him to add a tip always giving full
credit to where it comes from. Thats the beauty of it - he has a stack of
knowledge and makes it available free and also is more than happy to collate
others findings and add these as well. Otherwise how do we find them? Its a
central source maintained at no expense to us.

Tony
Cargpb18


Jonny O

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 2:58:13 AM2/4/10
to

turbo20lbs

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 3:20:15 AM2/4/10
to
Whoever was able to read all of that needs to consider finding another
hobby besides pinball, you have too much time on your hands.

jar155

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 4:28:01 AM2/4/10
to
On Feb 4, 1:20 am, turbo20lbs <turbo20...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whoever was able to read all of that needs to consider finding another
> hobby besides pinball, you have too much time on your hands.

That was very disappointing to read. I can understand that Clay would
get upset when his original vision gets changed, but he was a GUEST
editor of the magazine and it should have been an honor, not a chore
or a platform to self promote. I've always been a big fan of Clay for
his guides and videos (both are helpful especially for beginners), but
I can't help but wish I hadn't heard of this kind of behavior from
him.

It's a spat and the pinball world will move on. I doubt Clay and Jim
will be on good terms with each other from here on out, but there's no
reason why both guys can't be helpful and good members of the pinball
community going forward. Obviously they'll just have to do things in
their own way and let everybody else appreciate their efforts in their
own ways.

I hope this doesn't explode into a massive "I'm on team Jim" or "Team
Clay for me" ordeal, because that would suck.

Aeneas - www.flippers.be

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 5:28:17 AM2/4/10
to

Also my opinion.. usually I don't reply to posts like this.

It'll be best both parties go their own way and leave each other
alone..


Seems to me both parties made mistakes.
Jim and Gary thought they could manage Clay, turned out they couldn't.
Imo it's partly their fault that it came this far (not telling Clay in
advance what they expected from him and what not,
not pulling the plug fast enough..). If someone mailed me with that
kind of language I'd tell them
much earlier to stop working for me, no matter how much I needed their
input.

Otoh, I understand Clays side too. Writing articles, good pictures, it
all takes a lot of effort. Most people underestimate this.
My wife and I also cooperated a few years ago with a local magazine,
spent a lot of time writing articles, and had
them not published because the owner of the magazine found it didn't
fit his commercial interests. If you don't have
clear instructions in advance what is and what is not possible, you'll
run into problems. It really demotivates you.
Also if you have ideas to make something better and you have the
opportunity to do so, you tend to want to push them.

But PGJ is Jim's magazine. No matter who submitted something, Jim is
responsible for what gets published. If someone doesn't like it and
wants to complain/sue, it's his head.
So no matter if Clay likes it or not, he should've listened to Jim and
not force his own will, making it an all or nothing thing.
If Clay didn't like Jim's editing/censoring/.., he should've stopped
much earlier writing for PGJ (and start his own mag).

As a lot of people replied here they liked Clays issues, I really
would like to see Clay start his CoinMan magazine.
That's the only way to do it. Don't publish under PGJ name with Jim as
responsible publisher.
Seems there are a lot of people interested in Clays way of writing,
and he proved he can make an interesting magazine.. So do it.

If PGJ is a boring/dying magazine like Clay believes it is, CoinMan
will become a success.
There's nothing better than some competition :-)


Personally I doubt however that CoinMan would survive more than a few
issues if it's really Clay without limitations.
Not because of lack of subscribers. Because of lack of people to
interview (who would invite Clay to their home if you know in advance
you'll be published in a negative way ?) and because sooner or later
someone big (WMS, ..) would be so p*ssed off they would take legal
steps.

There are laws that have to be followed, if you like it or not.. No
matter if you are a big publication or a small hobby magazine.
If you're a free magazine/blogger you usually can get away with
certain things. If you post here on rgp you can say your own opinion
and get away with things. Become a 'for profit' magazine, no matter
how small, and it get more strict.

Clay posting his PGJ online is a copyright infringment (PGJ is Jims
property); The only thing Clay could legally have posted are the
articles and
pictures the made, without all the PGJ headlines.
The Madonna article ? All pictures are a copyright infringement..
James may posses the drawings and have allowed Clay to photograph
them,
the copyright on them is still property of WMS/Python. That's probably
one of the reasons why Jim usually asks someone of WMS if they're ok
with an article (and using pictures). You don't bite the hand that
feeds you..
The picture of Madonna on the Taxi pin ? I would at least have
expected a '(C) Steven Meisel Studio' line under it, or whoever the
published the book/picture and owns the copyright. While WMS may not
care about someone using pictures of their old artwork, the publisher
of Madonnas book may be much stricter and check
any infringement.. so if this was used without any request for
permission or any copyright attribution, imo that's a mistake. And if
they complain it won't be by email like someone from Australia does
here and you just laugh it away..


I still want to wish both parties the best of success for the future.
I hope Jim will get better and he'll be able to continue PGJ, or find
someone who he'll be able to cooperate with.
And I wish Clay all the best, we all appreciate what you do for the
hobby, I really hope you start CoinMan (it would be refreshing to read
it) and with some limitations in what you write I'm sure it'll be a
success.


ciao,

Aeneas.
-- http://www.flippers.be

Sean Kavanagh

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 8:07:26 AM2/4/10
to
I didn't need this much detail to know that Clay can be a dick.

However, I think he's like that because he really cares about
pinball...there's worse reasons to be an asshole in my book...doesn't
make it right...just sayin'.

Sean

kirb

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 8:25:50 AM2/4/10
to
On Feb 3, 10:22 pm, kirb <kirbse...@yahoo.com> wrote:

One other thing...

Clay agreed to help out with PGJ because Jim wasn't in a position to
publish anything for nearly a year. I wonder how many on the Clay
bashwagon would be slamming Jim for not giving them their PJG for 12
months without knowing why....then feel like a total asshole when you
found out.

Clay offered to help out FOR FREE, spend a TON of time, and create
issues for THE PINBALL HOBBY. Like his methods or not, getting into
the middle of this is unfair. The OP was way off base for posting
anything on this matter.

Jumping on the bashwagon from a single viewpoint is lame, but the RGP
way. Congrats for keeping the reputation alive!

Kirb

Bryan Kelly

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 8:30:50 AM2/4/10
to
Confrontation can be a good thing. Many times it's the only way
things get resolved.

Hopefully the egos invovled here won't prevent that from happening.

Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins


Craig Tiano

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 8:39:13 AM2/4/10
to
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:22:21 -0800 (PST), Ned Ledod
<pin...@charter.net> wrote:

Unbelievably hard to read ramblings that basically came down to:

Clay's working for free on PGJ, and doing most of the work.
Clay didn't like the publisher's censoring or changing his work
Clay suggests he'll take his skills elsewhere and create an email
version in competition.
Clay doesn't say nice things about some people.

Boo-Hoo. Let's air the dirty laundry!

Were it not for Clay, there would be a lot fewer people in this hobby.
His guides for repairing games have kept a lot them out of the
dumpsters. Anyone who has been around for more than a day or two
realizes that not everything in the guides was written by Clay. But,
Clay took the time to assemble it all in one place and make it
accessible.

Craig

hook

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 8:41:07 AM2/4/10
to

i've " known "( thru the net) clay for quite a while. he can be
dicky, and gets a bit nasty when contradicted, its happened to me. he
is what he is, take it of leave it. it shouldnt have come out of
left field, i doubt he became that way the day he took the PGJ gig.
jim probably made a mistake we all make from time to time, not being
100% upfront about what is and isnt expected from clay, especially
giving his history. i'm sure jim had a lot of other things on his
mind, being as sick as he was.

good or bad, clay has made a huge contribution to the hobby. maybe if
he didnt , someone else would have filled the void, but i know for
sure without the guides and videos, i'd still be trying to fix the
lucky ace i bought as my first pin( now 40 pins later) , 5 yrs ago.

doc ellis

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 8:49:59 AM2/4/10
to
On Feb 3, 10:17 pm, Mark Clayton <spamuser1...@i87.com> wrote:
> Please don't suck the whole site.  pinrepair.com is
> hosted on my server as a courtesy to Clay, and while it's
> on a dedicated server, it will hit very expensive transfer
> limits should tons of people do this.
>
> There are enough people that have already done it, so
> there's no danger of the site being "lost", and if the
> server does approach its (very high) data transfer quota,
> I WILL BE FORCED to take down pinrepair temporarily to
> avoid getting hit with a big over-quota bill.
>
> -Mark
> -----http://pinballpal.com

>
>
>
> metallik wrote:
> >> did he actually write? Have y'all ever wondered why he doesn't offer
> >> them in print form?
>
> > Who cares?
>
> > wget -rbhttp://www.pinrepair.com| lp -s -dprinter1

>
> > Solved.
>
> >> some unique tech tip is posted here, it appears on his sight without
> >> credit?
>
> > Hey, at least someone is saving this stuff.  Google sure is sucking
> > lately.  Speaking of saving things, looks like it's time to make
> > another local copy... drama sometimes causes "technical difficulties"
> > with pinrepair.com :)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've said it before and I will say it again"No good deed will go
unpunished" it's as simpel as that.

doc ellis

badbilly27

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 9:05:19 AM2/4/10
to
I actually found this thread quite amusing in an odd soap opera way.
Clay's rants made me laugh. It' a creative disagreement between two
people. Keep it between those two people and let them deal with it.

jackofdiamonds

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 9:11:28 AM2/4/10
to

Great "behind the scenes" look of how PGJ comes together!Now everybody
hold hands and sing Kum by ya!!!

TheKorn

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 10:18:42 AM2/4/10
to
metallik <larry...@dlptech.com> wrote in news:041fb8a9-6a6c-47b3-8384-
4cdede...@3g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:

> Ahh ok. I'm still thinking back to when it was hosted on Jeremy's
> porn servers (probably was just a drop in the bandwidth bucket for
> them).
>
> A buddy of mine has a recent archive so I hadn't pulled the trigger
> anyway. Fortunately, not too many people know how to use wget so
> hopefully the site is safe :)

If nothing else, I still have the copy I made back when the whole thing
moved from Jeremy's to Mark's servers.

--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?

http://www.webwidevideo.com/

freeplayer

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 10:24:51 AM2/4/10
to
On Feb 4, 9:11 am, jackofdiamonds <jackofdiamo...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> hold hands and sing Kum by ya!!!- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

If this is the same Clay that created Clay's guide, then God help us
all. He is a true asset to the pinball community IMHO, and he is
certainly entitled to speak his mind and offer his point of view good
or bad IMveryHO. I would be lost without some of his pinball tech
publications, freedom of speech I do believe applies to the pinball
hobby.

miracleman

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 10:54:10 AM2/4/10
to
On Feb 4, 10:24 am, freeplayer <fclandp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If this is the same Clay that created Clay's guide, then God help us
> all.  He is a true asset to the pinball community IMHO, and he is
> certainly entitled to speak his mind and offer his point of view good
> or bad IMveryHO.  I would be lost without some of his pinball tech
> publications, freedom of speech I do believe applies to the pinball
> hobby.

None of that excuses even ONE of the examples of poor behavior out of
the TWENTY mentioned in the o.p.

pincorrect

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 11:03:29 AM2/4/10
to

I think Clay's got good points.

Unlike others in the forum, I don't think anybody who contributes to
this hobby should get a "free pass" from criticism. That's not the
way this industry will persevere if the old guard has immunity from
answering for questionable actions.

However, I do think this post was much more spiteful and childish than
anything Clay perpetrated. Clay's motivation was mainly to produce
quality content of interest to the community. The motivation of this
post seems to clearly be character assassination of Clay. When he
published his issue online, he didn't talk shit about Shelberg. He
just put the issue up - it was all about the community.

As a subscriber to PGJ, I have been frustrated with the chaotic nature
of the magazine's publication, and it slowly turning from a magazine
into a brochure. I also didn't know what to make of the "calendar
issue" - was it a calendar or an issue? It seemed like an attempt to
suck up subscriptions and save money on postage more than provide
quality content. The two-issues-at-once thing was really confusing
and amateurish. If Jim doesn't have time to produce the issue he
should get someone else who does, and being "politically correct" with
some of the content doesn't help. If a line drawing of a nude is
taboo, then perhaps he should publish something like "Captain Kangaroo
Journal?" I think Clay is simply "being real" and contributed a lot
to the publication and had every right to think he might have a web
site mention in the issue -- it seems he donates a ton of his time and
work and the people he does this for never seem to appreciate it, or
don't follow through on their original arrangements (see also: Tim
Arnold and the snafu over where Clay's video revenue was going). He
probably has every right to be upset.

As for Jim, I don't know him personally, but my dealings have not been
pleasant. He advertised the Pinball 101 DVD all over the place, then
took orders and then proceeded to not fulfill those orders, nor
respond to peoples' inquiries about their availability. DON'T SELL
SOMETHING AND NOT DELIVER! It wasn't until I filed a dispute with
Paypal did I get my money refunded -- that was the only response I
got. Several e-mails simply inquiring about when the DVDs would be
shipped went unanswered. I turned around and placed my order with
another supplier and got my DVD, while those unfortunate enough to
have placed orders through PGJ were still waiting. That's
unprofessional. Jim needs to get his act together or hand the reins
over to someone (such as Clay) who will get it done. He can cuss all
he wants. Clay gets shit done!

The more I stick around here, the more I begin to see a lot of the
people in this field are trying to run businesses but suck at it. I
don't care how ingrained Jim is in the pinball community, he's taking
money from people to produce a magazine. Shit or get off the pot.
Unless Jim didn't know who Clay was, it was his responsibility to
delineate Clay's participation - if you're running a business you have
to know how to manage people. If Clay is difficult to deal with, as
many creative people can be, you have to work around that. It seems
to me that Clay is very productive (IMO his issue was the best PGJ
I've ever seen) and is becoming increasingly frustrated with other
people who take advantage of his generosity. So don't make promises
you can't keep to people like Clay. And while you're at it, don't
make promises to the rest of the world that you can't keep either.

If Clay is starting his own magazine, WHERE DO I SIGN UP?


Bryan Kelly

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 11:05:22 AM2/4/10
to
I completely agree.

Reminds me of the kids I used to coach in baseball. There was always
one kid who stood out as the best. What a pleasure it was to find
them to be the hubble type who just went out and did their thing. Too
many times they knew they were the best and acted like it. There were
a handful of games we lost because I had his sorry ass on the bench
because of his attitude.

I don't care who you are, or think you are. Everyone deserves to be
treated with respect.

pincorrect

unread,
Feb 4, 2010, 11:05:59 AM2/4/10
to
On Feb 4, 9:18 am, TheKorn <TheK...@TheKorn.Net> wrote:
> > A buddy of mine has a recent archive so I hadn't pulled the trigger
> > anyway.  Fortunately, not too many people know how to use wget so
> > hopefully the site is safe :)
>
> If nothing else, I still have the copy I made back when the whole thing
> moved from Jeremy's to Mark's servers.

I also have a copy of the site and will happily host it for the
community if needed.

Joe Grenuk

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Feb 4, 2010, 11:07:41 AM2/4/10
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Hello, yes it is the same Clay. It's kinda clear from the 50 posts
above that it's the same Clay.

Well, Swanson said it best, for me.

And whoever said "Why does everything have to end up on the interent"
hit it pretty square too.

Both of these guys are really really valuable assets to the hobby. And
a lot of us are assholes in our own special ways. It's admirable that
the OP is standing up for his friend Jim. I've stood up for Jim here
myself, ironically, to the immediately previous poster who was
incessantly whining about Jim's lack of speed in shipping his Pinball
101 DVD. Now, THAT is a big deal, worthy of trashing one of the truly
great guys in the hobby who was dealing with issues a little more
important than going to the post office....but I digress.

The stuff between Jim and Clay didn't need to get posted on the
internet. I imagine both Jim AND Clay are now embarrassed, and for
what purpose? I won't be cancelling my PGJ subscription and I won't be
boycotting Pinrepair.com anytime soon.

Sad thread, to me.

Joe

Andrew Barney

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Feb 4, 2010, 11:25:13 AM2/4/10
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And no credit to the people providing the tip... or even a source. The
fact that most of the content is creditless implies that he wrote it.
Which he did not. I don't care if people use my work to fix their
games, if I did, I would not post how something was fixed here. That
said, I give credit to all help me when I can. Because it is the right
thing to do. Thanks Mom for teaching me that one.

Ask yourself why there is no modern Stern repair info.

Andrew

kirb

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Feb 4, 2010, 11:27:22 AM2/4/10
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On Feb 4, 11:03 am, pincorrect <icor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If Clay is starting his own magazine, WHERE DO I SIGN UP?

I think you would be signing up in a frozen over hell since that would
be the only place that would have him running a full time
publication....I know he was tired of all the work that went into the
issues he did.

Bless Jim for sticking with it as well...it's not an easy job.

FYI- some of the push back from Clay to get issues out was timing-
keeping the PGJ on time and WITH TIMELY CONTENT. Don't put out a pre-
expo issue AFTER expo...and such.

I consider myself a friend of Jim and Clay and would think that this
will blow over soon enough...sooner if it wasn't needlessly out in
public.

Kirb

Old School Al

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Feb 4, 2010, 11:39:37 AM2/4/10
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Well, in Clay's defense reagrding the guides (and I have never met
Clay but greatly appreciate the pinrepair.com site) he has the text
below at the bottom of the main page. http://marvin3m.com/fix.htm

"02/01/09, c...@provide.net
Disclaimer: These repair guide documents for fixing/restoring coin
operated games are a best effort on my part. However, I screw up now
and then, so it would be unwise to trust the contents in its entirety.
And if you do something silly based on what I say, well please don't
blame me.

Guide History. These guides originally because as a series of notes
and tips which I gathered from many sources (yes I also did a lot of
research on my own too!) After a short while, friends would ask for
copies and make suggestion, enemies would critize them, and overall
the guides evolved and got better because of it. As new information
becomes available, I add it. Hopefully this process will continue for
the foreseeable future.

Why Free? These guides are free because I want people to use them. The
more people use them, and the more it helps them, then the more
inclined I am to keep it up to date. For this reason, if you find the
guides useful, please tell your friends. These guides are free, rather
than formally published, because I want to deliver the best product
possible. If it was published, I would not be able to get to market so
quickly. I find that as information and new idea develop, timeliness
is important. Also since it's available for free, I am under no
pressure to make the guides "marketable". I simply include whatever I
think might be useful."

He clearly acknowledges it is not 'all him'. Plus, it would be too
much work to cite every single little thing and who gets the credit. I
think anyone who is hung up on that needs to get over it and be
thankful we have a great 'single point of reference' for pinball
repair.

My .02,
Al

Jonny O

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Feb 4, 2010, 11:42:20 AM2/4/10
to

That pretty much sums it up. If you listen to the TOPcast interviews
of Tim Arnold he mentions frequently how he and his brother were
constantly fighting. If someone stepped into the middle of that he
might conclude one or the other is a total a**hole, but it was just
two strong personalities running a business.

Sean Kavanagh

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Feb 4, 2010, 12:02:06 PM2/4/10
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> I consider myself a friend of Jim and Clay and would think that this
> will blow over soon enough...sooner if it wasn't needlessly out in
> public.

THAT'S the crux of this thing kirb...doesn't belong in public.

Sean

Del

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Feb 4, 2010, 12:04:47 PM2/4/10
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I think Jim & Clay are both good guy's & I'm sure this will blow over
& can see them working together again .

I Butt heads with a few of the OPs I deal with & they are as strong
headed as I am & believe it or not us butting heads always leads to us
working "together" better than ever .
When you put 2 strong headed people together this always happens &
it's just business like any other day .
If they piss on my foot, I'll piss on theirs, But we don't piss on the
hands that feed us .

Jim & Clay should work this out between them-selfs .

Pin-Del,
cargpb28

ldnayman

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Feb 4, 2010, 12:13:57 PM2/4/10
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On Feb 4, 11:25�am, Andrew Barney <ssunitedsta...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And no credit to the people providing the tip... or even a source. The
> fact that most of the content is creditless implies that he wrote it.
> Which he did not.

I fail to see the problem.

I'd much rather read a guide filled with repair tips than one filled
with hundreds of annotations on who is "responsible," which of course
would just result in more pissing and moaning from various whiners on
who is REALLY due credit for what.

yesterdazepinball

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Feb 4, 2010, 12:31:05 PM2/4/10
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wouldn't have come to this hobby, nor had the opportunity to
befriend so many of the great people who are here, if Clay had not
taken the time, energy and effort to make his repair guides
accessible
to me. I can't thank him enough for doing so. I'll bet I'm not
alone.
I hate to spend more than 5 minutes a day reading the group, but
whatever Clay's bad points are, I also wouldn't be able to fix my own
pins had it not been for his site. The rest of it, well, is none of my
business. Regards, Doug

Toolguy

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Feb 4, 2010, 1:06:50 PM2/4/10
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I did not care for the first usage, and then over usage, of the word
"RAPE".

Other then that, they were fine!

luther r

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Feb 4, 2010, 1:22:42 PM2/4/10
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On 2/4/2010 10:05 AM, Bryan Kelly wrote:
> What a pleasure it was to find
> them to be the hubble type who just went out and did their thing.

I believe Ed Cheung is the only person on RGP who fits this description.

pinballnut

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Feb 4, 2010, 1:26:21 PM2/4/10
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Wow. You are right, that is long. Too long to read. I will believe you
when you say obscene-- I have read the first few lines, I think I know
where you are going. You are allowed to post your own opinion. So am
I.

Clay is Clay. I have talked to him on several occasions and thanked
him for all the time he has spent sharing this great hobby with
others. I can think of only few who have done as much as he. Maybe you
knew how to fix pins before you went on his website. Good for you.
But, he was the one who took the time to post pinrepair.com and he has
also taken the time to make videos and write columns and do a talk
show. What have you and I done?

Like I said, Clay is Clay. He is not a politician or a diplomat. We
know that. He is opinionated and to the point. If that offends you,
stay away from him and don't read his stuff. Let Richard Conger and
Jim S (I've talked to them too) fend for themselves. Are they upset?
Maybe, I don't have the time to read all these posts. And since I am
letting off my steam and opinions here too, some of us need to spend
way more time focusing on the positive around here. This is a hobby.
It is fun. Try and keep it that way.

Just my opinions.

Brad, Vacaville CA

On Feb 3, 6:22 pm, Ned Ledod <pinb...@charter.net> wrote:
>  I have tried in the past to praise the work of Clay Harrell and
> minimize his bad side, but this is too much. In the last few months he
> has cut down Tim Arnold, Richard Conger and many others. Now Jim
> Schelberg. These people have done way too much for the hobby to be
> tre