Tech: Convert EBD to WPC '87 - '91 flippers

[LexingtonVAPin]

We have an EBD with linear flippers. Rather than converting them to
earlier Bally non-linear flippers, is it possible to convert them to WPC
non-Fliptronics flippers?

If so, how do we handle having the upper left flipper activated by the
lower left flipper?

https://www.pinballlife.com/full-flipper-assembly-for-williamsbally-machines-from-031987-to-111991.html

11630 coils, I assume.

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[seymour.shabow]

The same way Bally did with stacked EOS switches that you will have to
build custom.

The conversion to the earlier style is easy and you only need 2 parts
the pawl and the plunger/link. Everything else is reusable, take the
nylon insert out of the bracket the hole in it won't matter.

Keep in mind the wms flippers are going to be either 28volts for the
early system 6/7 style, or 50 volts for the later styles, so you may
have to try a couple different coils to get the right strength. Does
the fat bally flipper bat shaft fit into the wms pawls correctly?

[c...@provide.net]

I've done this before. Frankly, unless you have the
parts laying around, it's not worth the trouble.
the difference in 'feel' is pretty much zero. the
only advantage to it, is parts availability. But
frankly now that Pinball Life stocks all these
parts for Bally flippers, it's not worth it.

In my opinion, i generally go back to the old
style Bally flippers from Linear. But not from any
perspective other than parts consistency. (i buy
the parts at Pinball Resource.)

If you rebuild linear flippers, they'll last your
lifetime.

We did a test where we had one rebuilt linear and
one WPC flipper on a Bally. No one could tell the
differece! ha!

[c...@provide.net]

You can use stock Bally coils on a WPC mech
with one small modification to the mechs.

[LexingtonVAPin]

This pin is in a heavy use situation at a museum in Roanoke. I rebuilt
the linear flippers and due to some damage to the base by some previous
bozo (using wood screws for the coil stop, etc.), we have had problems.
So I have to replace the base.
Additionally, I was shocked how quickly the EOS switches burned up, due
to the serial coils.

I like the external spring design of the WPC flippers. And the longer
lasting EOS switches are a real plus.

I read somewhere that 11630 are a fairly close match at the lower
voltage to the stock coils. I believe the stock coils are shorter, so I
would have to do something to make them fit. I would rather not have to
drill and tap new holes in the base to make that happen.

If I were to convert, I would hope that I would be able to add a
asw-a10-45 switch for the upper flipper.

Plus, the guy who runs the museum hates the linear flippers, so we have
to change them one way or the other.

I doubt we are going to change all of our early SS pins to WPC style
flippers, but those parts are cheaper.

If buying an entire rebuild kit, the early Bally is $40 vs. $23 for
early WPC at Pinball Life, so kits are almost half price.

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[John Robertson]

Why not put a 2.2ufd/250VDC axial lead cap across the EOS switch? They
reduce arcing...

John :-#)#

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www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[LexingtonVAPin]

Interesting suggestion. I cannot imagine why not. Yet I never see
that suggested for older pins to reduce EOS switch wear.

If it works, it should be done for every pin with serial coils.

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[c...@provide.net]

John, the end of stroke cap Idea only works with parallel wound coils. You can use them on series wound coils but they really have no effect. But good thing, because these are parallel wound. Stock bally flip coils are parallel wound, I do believe.

[John Robertson]

I am not convinced that this serial vs parallel coil prematurely wearing
out EOS switch contacts issue is valid. I'd like to see paper on that
from one of the factories. If you have good back-EMF diodes (1N4003/4/5/
or 7) then you only get around 0.7VDC pulse out of the coil as the diode
clamps almost all of the back-EMF energy, the contacts (tungsten
contacts are best) can handle the rest just fine.

The 2.2 caps will help any DC EOS switch (useless on older AC flippers),
and can also but placed across the cabinet flipper switches to reduce
their arcing.

[c...@provide.net]

John I did a video test of spark on parallel versus series wound flipper coils with and without caps. Answer is series wound coils with the caps made little to no difference in spark. On parallel wound coils you could physically see the difference that the caps made. On series wound coils, no difference. Photographed with the lights out slow motion camera

[LexingtonVAPin]

On 1/3/19 3:16 PM, c...@provide.net wrote:
> John, the end of stroke cap Idea only works with parallel wound coils. You can use them on series wound coils but they really have no effect. But good thing, because these are parallel wound. Stock bally flip coils are parallel wound, I do believe.
>

Am I getting myself confused? I thought all the early pins used serial
coils? And those caused more arcing and EOS damage.

Parallel coils were used WPC and later?

I think EBD used 25-500/34-4500. Isn't that serial? And the reason I
think I saw heavy EOS wear?

Or am I nuts (again)?

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[LexingtonVAPin]

On 1/3/19 3:25 PM, c...@provide.net wrote:
> John I did a video test of spark on parallel versus series wound flipper coils with and without caps. Answer is series wound coils with the caps made little to no difference in spark. On parallel wound coils you could physically see the difference that the caps made. On series wound coils, no difference. Photographed with the lights out slow motion camera
>

Are both of you saying that parallel and serial coils give equivalent
spark / wear of EOS switches. But the caps help only on series coils?

So the combo of the cap and series coils reduces wear on EOS switch.

Series coils by themselves, have no reduction in EOS wear.

Parallel coil with cap has no reduction in EOS wear.

?

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[homebrood]

No I think he's saying Parallel + cap has the reduced EOS wear
Series + Cap no difference than without.

[LexingtonVAPin]

Yes, you are right, I got it backwards.

*The combo of the cap and parallel coils reduces wear on EOS switch.

*Parallel coils by themselves, have no reduction in EOS wear.

*Series coil with cap has no reduction in EOS wear.

So this means that early pins with series coils have higher EOS wear.
And a cap will not help.

Changing to parallel with a cap will help.

https://pinballmedic.net/coil_chart.html

Parallel: FL11753, FL11722, FL11630, FL15411, FL11629

Series: FL24/600-30/2600, FL23/600-30/2600

Conversion (same voltage):
FL23/600-30/2600 = FL11630,
FL24/600-30/260 = FL11722

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[John Robertson]

On 2019/01/03 12:25 p.m., c...@provide.net wrote:
> John I did a video test of spark on parallel versus series wound flipper coils with and without caps. Answer is series wound coils with the caps made little to no difference in spark. On parallel wound coils you could physically see the difference that the caps made. On series wound coils, no difference. Photographed with the lights out slow motion camera
>

Do you have that video posted somewhere? I'd really like to see it.

I assume all the other variables were matched - coil voltage, etc. for
this test.

[c...@provide.net]

i did post the video but this was nearly 15 years ago
and i can't remember where i posted it!

I used the same game for the test. i believe it
was a system11 game and i used 11630 for the parallel
coil and the equivalent series coil (400-xx?) i don't
remember all the details but it was pretty telling.

i did it for my own knowledge. it wasn't really a
'thing' back then. i was just curious.

If you look at the Bally -17/-35 coils, i do believe
they are parallel wound. i will have to check next
time when i'm at the shop. you can see how the wires
attach to the lugs to confirm this.

[Pin Del]

Lex,
Just wondering out of the blue, Is your game running a 6802 or 6803 board set ?, I know some early EBDs were 6802 & that is the only reason I ask .

TIA !
Pin-Del,

[LexingtonVAPin]

Hi Pin-Del.

Sorry I cannot answer that. It is about an hour away from me at the
Roanoke Pinball Museum. Next time I am down there, I will check.

Not certain I understand, though. Are you referring to the CPU chip? I
thought these were 6800? I did not know that any used the 6803, much
less the 6802. Eight Ball Champ was 6803.

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[LexingtonVAPin]

Bally EBD flipper coils are listed as 25-500/34-4500.

I have a 6MDM on the rotisserie and there are two wires to the center
lug. On a 11629 I have handy, there are two wires on the end lug.

[LexingtonVAPin]

For what it is worth, I have 4 early SS pins setup. The Silverball
Mania happens to have a 6802 in it (if I can read the chip properly). I
never realized that.

My personal EBD has a label over the CPU and I cannot easily remove it.

All other Bally SS pins and a plethora of dead boards either have 6800
in them or no CPU chip at all.

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[Delma...@aol.com]

Lex I was asking about the CPU board, not the chip on it .
Anyway if you need the early SS Bally flipper Assys, I have 4 or 5 I can send you if you went that route ?.

Pin Del.

[Pin Del]

Here is a little info on the 6802 board .

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.pinball/qRaJB5iuSvo/O3WY0Ixy5KIJ;context-place=topic/rec.games.pinball/7w_ylCWpvHo

[Pin Del]

The spare flipper assy's I have here have 25-800 coils .

Pin-Del,

[LexingtonVAPin]

>>'Is your game running a 6802 or 6803 board set ?, I know some early
>> EBDs were 6802 & that is the only reason I ask .'

I have experience with the -17 and -35 early Bally SS pins.
Some experience with a 6803 board in later Bally pins.
No experience at all with 6802 boards and have never heard of nor seen
one (until I looked at your link).

I was not aware of either the 6802 or 6803 ever being used with EBD,
only the -35. That is why I was confused.

> Here is a little info on the 6802 board .

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.pinball/qRaJB5iuSvo
/O3WY0Ixy5KIJ;context-place=topic/rec.games.pinball/7w_ylCWpvHo

Thanks.

It looks like the 6802 could be used in an EBD.

My SBM with the 6802 processor installed is a plain old -35 board.

> Anyway if you need the early SS Bally flipper Assys, I have 4 or 5 I
can send you if you went that route ?.

Thank you. That is very nice of you. I will let you know.

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[seymour.shabow]

LexingtonVAPin wrote:
>
> I have a 6MDM on the rotisserie and there are two wires to the center
> lug. On a 11629 I have handy, there are two wires on the end lug.
>

I don't think it's necessarily which lugs the wires are on, but which
wires go to which lug with which function (ground, diode orientation, etc.)

I think way back I unwound a bally flipper coil to see, and it is
parallel wound - in fact the giveaway might be that it has 2 flipper
diodes on it vs. one that a series wound did.

I remember watching Clay's video way back when on youtube and it seemed
that the series one got a very SLIGHT reduction in spark, but this is
really hard to tell. The parallel wound one definitely did.

[Pin Del]

There is a EBD close to me I can buy running the 6802 MPU in it, BUT it has been water logged so bad I think all I'd be able to save are a bunch of screws. :(

[LexingtonVAPin]

On 1/3/19 5:32 PM, c...@provide.net wrote:
> If you look at the Bally -17/-35 coils, i do believe
> they are parallel wound. i will have to check next
> time when i'm at the shop. you can see how the wires
> attach to the lugs to confirm this.
>
>

It is too bad that we cannot find the video. I find experimentation, to
prove or disprove widely held assumptions, to be great fun.

I was also trying to figure out how to confirm parallel vs. serial
without unwinding the coil.

The orientation of the diodes of the two coils are reversed (reference
looking at the tabs and viewing the diodes, lugs up). Power on the
right and hold coil on the right hand side for 6MDM - with two wires to
the center lug, diode bands to the right.
For the 11629, diode bands to the left. Two wires on the left hand lug.
Power on the left (on a FH).

There are two flipper diodes on both coils.

My knowledge on design / theory of coils & solenoids is limited. Not
sure how parallel vs. serial would dictate number of diodes. Please
explain.

I had always believed that all early flipper coils were serial until
Clay raised this question. If he is right, there is a lot of
misinformation out there.

"The parallel wound coil was first used on F14 Tomcat and, in
conjunction with a capacitor, greatly reduces the arcing on the EOS
switch (instructions for upgrading can be seen below)."

https://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/solid-state-repair/routine-maintenance/190-rebuilding-flippers

[seymour.shabow]

LexingtonVAPin wrote:
>
> There are two flipper diodes on both coils.
>
> My knowledge on design / theory of coils & solenoids is limited. Not
> sure how parallel vs. serial would dictate number of diodes. Please
> explain.
>

One diode for each coil contained in the bobbin, for reverse voltage
protection. Also, count the # of wires coming out - there's 4. 2 coils.

> I had always believed that all early flipper coils were series until

> Clay raised this question. If he is right, there is a lot of
> misinformation out there.

All WILLIAMS early flipper coils are.

>
> "The [WILLIAMS] parallel wound coil was first used on F14 Tomcat and, in

> conjunction with a capacitor, greatly reduces the arcing on the EOS
> switch (instructions for upgrading can be seen below)."
>

[EMPHASIS ON WILLIAMS] coil added. Clay's guides (especially out of
date bootleg ones) are/were evolving documents - and they are
'compartmentalized' in that any information in them is assumed to apply
to JUST that manufacturer's equipment, unless specifically specified
otherwise. Clay discouraged people from backing up/printing out the
guides - I did myself before they were removed from the web and even in
that short time, lots of information changed. Atari flipper coils
appear to be parallel wound as well... Gottliebs, nope.

You can tell if there are 2 coils in there - unsolder the wires from the
lugs and measure each. You won't find continuity between more than the
2 coils. If I have another hosed flipper coil somewhere I'll unwind
another one and take pictures this time, or just take one again for the
team - it's not like I don't have boxes and boxes of this stuff laying
around. (I do....)

LMK if you want me to take a coil apart and I'll film the results.

[LexingtonVAPin]

On 1/5/19 11:45 AM, seymour.shabow wrote:
> LexingtonVAPin wrote:
>>
>> There are two flipper diodes on both coils.
>>
>> My knowledge on design / theory of coils & solenoids is limited. Not
>> sure how parallel vs. serial would dictate number of diodes.  Please
>> explain.
>>
>
> One diode for each coil contained in the bobbin, for reverse voltage
> protection.  Also, count the # of wires coming out - there's 4.  2 coils.

In the color me dense dept (and I don't have an early Williams coil
handy): it appears that the FH WPC is connected differently. The power
is going to the common (two wire lug). The EOS switch completes the
power winding circuit. When the EOS switch opens, the power winding is
disconnected. The hold winding is always powered. Since they are run
in parallel, each winding needs it own diode. Each winding's field
collapses at different times.

On the 6MDM, the power is to one of the two windings (single wire).
When the EOS is closed it shorts out the first winding (hold) and the
power runs through only the power winding. When the EOS is open, it no
longer shorts out the hold winding and the power runs through both
coils, in series.

In this case, I think that only one diode could be used, since the
windings are connected in series. Both windings' fields collapse at the
same time.

It is not clear to me why Williams stopped using the EOS to short out
the hold winding and started using it to disconnect the power winding.
Maybe in that application, the capacitor is more effective?

>
>> I had always believed that all early flipper coils were series until
>> Clay raised this question.  If he is right, there is a lot of
>> misinformation out there.
>
> All WILLIAMS early flipper coils are.
>
>>
>> "The [WILLIAMS] parallel wound coil was first used on F14 Tomcat and,
>> in conjunction with a capacitor, greatly reduces the arcing on the EOS
>> switch (instructions for upgrading can be seen below)."
>>
>
> [EMPHASIS ON WILLIAMS] coil added.  Clay's guides (especially out of
> date bootleg ones) are/were evolving documents - and they are
> 'compartmentalized' in that any information in them is assumed to apply
> to JUST that manufacturer's equipment, unless specifically specified
> otherwise.  Clay discouraged people from backing up/printing out the
> guides - I did myself before they were removed from the web and even in
> that short time, lots of information changed.  Atari flipper coils
> appear to be parallel wound as well... Gottliebs, nope.

My quote does not come from Clay's guides. That comment about F-14
being the first to use parallel seems to be common across the web.
[If it is on the web, it must be true.]

>
> You can tell if there are 2 coils in there - unsolder the wires from the
> lugs and measure each.  You won't find continuity between more than the
> 2 coils.  If I have another hosed flipper coil somewhere I'll unwind
> another one and take pictures this time, or just take one again for the
> team - it's not like I don't have boxes and boxes of this stuff laying
> around.  (I do....) >
> LMK if you want me to take a coil apart and I'll film the results.

It would be nice to take apart 3 different coils: WPC, early Bally,
early Williams. Are you a glutton for punishment? :-)

--
http://orcalcoast.com/

[seymour.shabow]

LexingtonVAPin wrote:
>
> My quote does not come from Clay's guides. That comment about F-14
> being the first to use parallel seems to be common across the web.
> [If it is on the web, it must be true.]
>

Well, whomever's guide. I hadn't seen that site yet I'll have to digest
it later.

>
> It would be nice to take apart 3 different coils: WPC, early Bally,
> early Williams. Are you a glutton for punishment? :-)
>

I just took apart a bally flipper coil from black jack (the solid state
one). Had 2 diodes.... the fatter coil winding handily enough was
green, and the thinner much more prevalent wire was redish. At no point
other than the lugs were they connected together. The hold coil was the
outer red wire and the thicker inner green one was the power stroke - I
ended up having to pull the coil spool ends off and pull the green wire
out from the center, the outer wire kept breaking due to some adhesive
on it.

Your turn to do the early williams....

The WPC era I'll take WMS word for it.