IronMan at Allentown - That Ol' DMD
Big Daddy
just starting to discover the hobby.....
We checked out the new IM with the LED set-up, and actually paid for
several games to check it out and form our impressions.
We each walked away with the same thought:
Great game, awesome presence, nicely done.
STERN got this one "spot on."
But we each feel the 'yesterday's technology' DMD simply sucks and
actually brings the whole piece down a peg or two.
My comments were along the lines of - in today's world of LCD large-
format and High-Def TVs - this is the best graphics package that we
can get?
His comment was the dots are programmed too small for the average 30+
year old user's declining eyesight LOL, they are murky, and he has
better technology in his car dashboard for his Bluetooth and Navi/GPS.
He also wondered if for the 25+ crowd, is such a DMD feature a turn-
off to a generation who grew up on their ipods, their computer's GUIs,
and newer touch-screen handlhed devices?
So, are we being too harsh about this one feature of this game?
Everything else about IM was love, love, love.......so we left
wondering if the DMD as-is is a plus or a minus feature with an
otherwise outstanding title?
"Is this just us?"
Thanks, and it was once again great to see so many folks and fellow
RGPer's sticking it out Sunday!
BD
seymour.shabow
I would rather see just alpha numeric displays - the animations don't
add a lot to my enjoyment of the game. Well done ones always did, like
twilight zone's or similar era WMS games, but you're right - the
displays themselves look very dated. Not that simple LED numerics
wouldn't also, but I for one don't care if there's a video mode in the
game (I'm playing pinball, not a [primitive] video game).
Going any other direction with full motion color video is a mistake -
too much investment for little if any return. Partially why a lot of
the recent games animation's haven't made any impression good or bad on
me at all - I just ignore them. I like that the score is visible at all
times now - that's the most important thing to me.
-scott CARGPB#29
Tony Holdgate
for animation is not a favourite for me.
"seymour.shabow" <seymour...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bde27a3$0$18558$6e1e...@read.cnntp.org...
Big Daddy
LOL, my buddy also able to see Bruce's STTNG demo machine about 20 ft.
away from IM, and said "Gosh you can really see THAT even from here."
I was playing IM, glanced over and thought he was right - from that
distance, even that mid-90s WMS display smokes the one on IM.
(I love the job STERN did on IM however).
BD
badbilly27
I for one love the animations in the displays and video game modes on
pinball machines. Just numbers would be a horrible time machine
trip. Don't get me wrong nostalgic - cool; but it's 2010 people get
with the program. If slot machines can have animations and mini games
it's not too hard to expect a pinball machine to get a bit more
innovative there. A pachinko machine has more animations in it now.
I love combining pinball and video modes - it adds to the experience
for me. But, I think this goes back to our age demographics. Younger
video - older numbers. No offense just an observation. Fun topic but
I don't see Stern changing it.
MB
If you have video board limitations and budget restraints for
programmers- then at least get a multicolor DMD/LED screen. Moreover-
since ALL Stern products are licensed- just "Lift" the animation
sequences straight from the film and get a LCD in there. I don't buy
Gary's argument that license holders would be more worried about their
IP getting away from them. The money they save on programming the
dots- could go towards the costs of the LCD's (which would be damn
minimal after designing/sourcing a new video board). But Stern must be
on the brink if they are saving 2 bucks on pf slides- no way they are
going to start innovating now- they didnt even when money wasn't as
tight.
After all, we're not asking for P2K here
marc
TheKorn
bfce-e38...@o14g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
> He also wondered if for the 25+ crowd, is such a DMD feature a turn-
> off to a generation who grew up on their ipods, their computer's GUIs,
> and newer touch-screen handlhed devices?
>
> So, are we being too harsh about this one feature of this game?
> Everything else about IM was love, love, love.......so we left
> wondering if the DMD as-is is a plus or a minus feature with an
> otherwise outstanding title?
>
> "Is this just us?"
Not at all. If you ask any non-pinhead when ANY Stern machine was made,
they look RIGHT AT the DMD and guess "in the 90s?"
It's just another symptom of Gary Stern being stuck in 1992. If the
display technology was pushed backwards (simple numeric) then people would
write it off as a cost saving measure (i.e. semi-accept it) and wouldn't
think twice about it. If the display techology were pushed forwards (LCD,
plasma, OLED, etc.) then it'd look modern.
But a monochromatic gas plasma dot display? SO 1990s.
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
mr tobias
> also the way stern do these later games with only 2/3rds of the display used
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, the split screen made some sense with say WoF, but I'm not sure
it's a good idea to implement it in every release given the
limitations of the DMD.
Rare Hero
some mock-up pictures I'm going to post later this week. The idea is
this: An LCD embedded in the playfield. It's basically taking the
concept of Stern's mini-displays in WOF/WPT to the next level. An LCD
as part of the playfield would eliminate the need for a DMD (the
scores could be on the PF LCD), and many of the inserts as well. For
example, in Spider-Man - imagine if there was an LCD in the middle of
the playfield that played the various movie animations when hitting
the villains ...it would be right there in front of you, in full
color. Instead of blinking inserts, there could be an animating arrow
& text showing where to hit the ball for combos or mode starts.
Theoretically, there could be some kind of optos or sensors that allow
the LCD to display animation as the ball rolls over it...Spidey's webs
following the ball trajectory, or something like that. Anyway - like
I said, I've got some mockup pics I'll post later....if anyone's
already thought of this idea, I apologize!
Greg
Menace
A group of my collector friends and I were discussing this same thing
while on our way to Expo '08 and we all thought it was a good idea. I
also brought up the possibility of using a small OLED or LCD display
in place of an insert(s), just think of the possibilities... (I'm not
saying for all inserts, just strategic ones)
D
wbradley
And here I thought the idea of the DMD was to provide enhanced scoring
displays without completely distracting the player from the game. It
also attracts other people to watch and get in line to play. I dont
know why but I like the animations on the WMS games, TZ etc much
better than the more detailed LED DMD graphics on newer Sterns. The
exception isTSPP, which has a more "animated look" reminiscent of the
WMS animations. I think the problem is with the newer 11 shade LED DMD
displays, Stern is trying to make the graphics look like movies. I
dont think it is more entertaining however. Either use a TFT and do
movies (which I am oppoosed to), or do clever animations which are
visually much clearer and IMHO much more entertaining for ther
players. Or a combo thereof.
My .02
Daniel Tonks
news:9f991953-4f88-4b0d...@k19g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Just wait until technology advances to the point where we can simply get a
paper thin flexible irregularly shaped LED display that simply covers up the
central area of what we now consider playfield artwork.
But for now, I really think an LCD screen is the way to go. They can no
longer be considered too dim - just get outdoor versions, the type meant to
be seen in sunlight. There are numerous ready-to-go hardware platform kits
ready to drive whatever type of screen and whatever type of content is
desired (because let's not fool ourselves, such a drastic change in display
technology/capabilities is going to require a complete redesign of SAM).
Base the OS on some real-time ready-to-go *nix O/S , throw in USB,
networking, a webcam... heck, toss in bluetooth headphone support so you can
hear the game in a crowded bar. And once you hook up to the net, you open up
a whole new world of possibilities - the kind of things today's game players
would be looking for. First order of business would be an App that
automatically finds you the closest pinball machine to where you are.
- Dan
seymour-shabow
>
> Just wait until technology advances to the point where we can simply get a
> paper thin flexible irregularly shaped LED display that simply covers up
> the
> central area of what we now consider playfield artwork.
>
That would be really cool, like future pinball but on a 'real'
playfield.... that's the type of video pinball I could really get
behind. No lamps to install in the PF, just cutouts for the mechanical
components.
-scott CARGPB#29
Pinball Wizard
Is there ANYBODY else but me who REALLY LIKES the split-screen DMD? I
like it as an easy way to see my score, and how much my "last shot"
was worth. And it's done without sacraficing anything except a little
DMD real estate which many here have said they don't care so much
about anyway. I'm thinking mainly of BDK, BBH, and IJ4 just coz I've
played them the most lately. Especially with BBH when I hit something
I wonder "how much did that score", like a simple ramp shot, or
something that's not a mode. I used to have to look at my score,
shoot a shot, then look at it again and try to do the math. I love
the split-screen. I'd like a DMD but again, I think Stern is
"surviving" right now. To just do a so-so job of a DMD for the sake
of it would not bring any ROI. I think they'd need to do something
kinda BIG like P2K did. I wouldn't hold my breath right now. I liked
the movie clips in SM, IJ4, and BDK too. I don't see the need to go
beyond that. I think the BIG MONEY needs to be spent in licensing (as
IJ4 showed, even a DUD of a game with a good license will sell), and
in making stuff LESS LIKELY TO BREAK. LOTR was so hampered by tech
issues. People in here found and/or developed Balrog fixes, flipper
strength fixes, and tweaked the ring. Did "Sluggo the crane operator"
who buys 1 pin every other year do ANYTHING when Balrog broke? Probly
not. Now they have a LOTR with a broken Balrog, and flippers that
can't hit the Ring which doesn't work anyway; but LOTR fans still put
their money in- but not RGP'ers.
T
Pinsgonewild
right with Pinball 2000. Unfortunately no one has the resources or
courage to take pinball to the next level of development with this
platform which would carry pinball forward instead of this stagnant
90's stage it's presently stuck in.
Don.
TheKorn
news:4633fea8-1f95-4c41...@i9g2000vbh.googlegroups.com:
> Is there ANYBODY else but me who REALLY LIKES the split-screen DMD?
I can see the *utility* of it, but I don't think anyone really *likes* it.
It's only 2/3rds of a DMD; by definition it's less than what came before.
TheKorn
> I'm not sure if anyone has ever brought up this concept, but I made
> some mock-up pictures I'm going to post later this week. The idea is
> this: An LCD embedded in the playfield. It's basically taking the
> concept of Stern's mini-displays in WOF/WPT to the next level.
The problem with this idea is the same one with multi-level games like BH,
HH, etc... To make it worthwhile you have to go reasonable large, which
means you're basically forcing the design to be a fan design. All the
shots have to be wayyy in the back, or all the way to the sides, to get
the hardware out of the way of the display. While interesting the first
time or two out, requiring all shots to be around the edge grows stale
REALLY fast.
i.e. you can't do the TV scoop, CERTAINLY can't do the buck, no iron
monger or whiplash, no drops like WPT, etcetcetc.
TheKorn
news:554dc8fa-fb50-477a...@j33g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
> And here I thought the idea of the DMD was to provide enhanced scoring
> displays without completely distracting the player from the game. It
> also attracts other people to watch and get in line to play. I dont
> know why but I like the animations on the WMS games, TZ etc much
> better than the more detailed LED DMD graphics on newer Sterns. The
> exception isTSPP, which has a more "animated look" reminiscent of the
> WMS animations. I think the problem is with the newer 11 shade LED DMD
> displays, Stern is trying to make the graphics look like movies. I
> dont think it is more entertaining however. Either use a TFT and do
> movies (which I am oppoosed to), or do clever animations which are
> visually much clearer and IMHO much more entertaining for ther
> players. Or a combo thereof.
Unless you're playing in Europe, you're NOT playing on a LED DMD display,
just a standard gas plasma DMD.
(Unless you're talking about actual LED
displays, such as the TV on simpsons.)
1st
> some mock-up pictures I'm going to post later this week. The idea is
> this: An LCD embedded in the playfield.
Once or twice....
1st
Joe Jet
Sorry if this was asked already but i dont see it... why did they go
to the LED (red type) display on 24 and then go back?
Dmod
> to the LED (red type) display on 24 and then go back?
LEDs are only needed for the EU market due to Reduction of Hazardous
Substances (RoHS) laws. Currently LED displays are still more
expensive than gas plasmas.
Randy
Joe Jet
I was aware of the EU issue - but why did 24 use them for US then and
what changed since? I assumed they were CHEAPER at the time 24 was
done... maybe price flux?
Dmod
but I think the LED manufacturing costs have been consistently higher
as it's a relatively new technology with low volumes.
Vishay has a LED board where all the diodes have to be individually
placed (32x128 diodes!). PinLED was building boards using LED arrays
which are easier to integrate at the board level, but challenging to
perfectly align so that the rows and columns look linear. I recall
reading a thread on RGP that PinLED was going to be supplying Stern
but I'm not sure how things turned out.
Randy
no_credit_dot
animations that much harder to see. Atleast the split screen should
be an option to turn on or off based on preference.
-mike
On May 4, 7:23 am, TheKorn <thek...@thekorn.net> wrote:
TheKorn
> to the LED (red type) display on 24 and then go back?
I'm not aware of any US-spec machine that was shipped with an LED display.
Though I guess if they ran out of the plasma displays, it's certainly
possible they did just to prevent the line from stalling.
Joe Jet
I assumed all of the 24's were LED DMD's based on the one i saw at
Pinfest and this post:
see post message #8
Jonny O
> Made it to the show today (Sunday), took along a non-pinhead buddy
> just starting to discover the hobby.....
>
> We checked out the new IM with the LED set-up, and actually paid for
> several games to check it out and form our impressions.
>
[snip]
I don't think you're being too harsh. The DMD is ancient. It's so
ancient, the industry already moved beyond it 10 years ago with
pinball2000. It's tiny, colorless, low-resolution and like 12 people
on the planet know how to program it. Meanwhile there are a gazillion
3D animators and game programmers out there who can't find a job and
work at taco bell.
Hell, just put the damn LCD in the game and program it as a dot-matrix
simulator, but make the code open source so that hobbyists can write
their own display code and substitute their own animations later on.
That opens the door for hobbyists and 3rd parties to make cool
'packages' that can be dropped in for a fresh effect. This is similar
in concept to what the Quake/Doom/etc. MOD communities have been doing
for two decades.
Jonny O
That is a great idea but the underside of a playfield is a rats nest.
It would force the use of a big open space in the pf. Also, part of
the function of the display is to attract attention, so it would
ideally need two displays. Still really not that expensive. 20" LCDs
are dirt cheap.
1st
1st
On May 4, 2:56 pm, Joe Jet <jdeceg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> see post message #8
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_frm/thread/4c...