Flipper Kit Differences?
Jason Bauer
different flipper kits listed for WPC games. Specifically HS2 and BSD
take a different kit than NGG and JD. I mention these games
specifically as that's what I have.
So what is the difference? What happens if I had used a HS2 kit on my
JD? Which I think I may have done.
Any help would be great.
J
Unknown
The HS2 and BSD kits have the shorter coil stop, part # A-12111
IJ was the first game with the longer coil stop.
You can actually tell the coil stops are different from the pictures
of the kits.
If you put an HS2 kit on a JD, the flipper travel will be greater than
it should be.
Ron...
John Wart, jr
The older plungers have a different link too.
The JD might have a bit more flipper travel is all, not a horrible thing :)
--
--john
CARGPB34
http://www.myhomegameroom.com
"Jason Bauer" <jasonpa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188262204.4...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
cody chunn
the coil sleeve doesn't get smashed. I think Sys11 games had that type of
link...
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"John Wart, jr" <johnw...@johnwartjr.com> wrote in message
news:bIKdnaUJR-4g4k7b...@comcast.com...
John Wart, jr
> Yeah, the ones with more travel may require the tapered links so the end of
> the coil sleeve doesn't get smashed. I think Sys11 games had that type of
> link...
>
> --
> -cody
> CARGPB4
>
>
> > The older coil stops were composed of different material and were shorter.
>
> > The older plungers have a different link too.
>
> > The JD might have a bit more flipper travel is all, not a horrible thing
> > :)
>
> > --
> > --john
>
> > CARGPB34
> >http://www.myhomegameroom.com
>
> >news:1188262204.4...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> >> Just was browsing the Pinball Life website and noticed there are
> >> different flipper kits listed for WPC games. Specifically HS2 and BSD
> >> take a different kit than NGG and JD. I mention these games
> >> specifically as that's what I have.
>
> >> So what is the difference? What happens if I had used a HS2 kit on my
> >> JD? Which I think I may have done.
>
> >> Any help would be great.
>
> >> J
My research indicates that link was used up til IJ or TAFG time.
Of course, the manuals are pretty regularly incorrect, so the input of
someone who has a HUO game that was never serviced would be
beneficial :)
Pinball Life
kits. Each kit realizes a change, whether it be subtle or major.
Many changes occurred during this period; the length of the coil
sleeve changed (2), the EOS switch changed (3), the return spring
changed (3), the coil stop changed (3), the plunger length changed
(2), the link changed (2), and a capacitor either was or was not used.
Hopefully I did not make it too confusing. Each kit is listed by the
dates it was in use. All games (to the best of my knowledge) using
any given kit are listed in the text of the listing. I spent the
majority of my free time last winter gathering all the required info
for these kits. I did not just rely on manuals, I also did tons of
field work; visually inspecting numerous confirmed NOS mechs on old
machines to insure that all the kits ended up as correct as I could
possibly make them.
If anyone has any game-specific questions about these flipper rebuild
kits please contact me via e-mail and I will do my best to clarify.
Terry.
www.pinballlife.com
mega...@hotmail.com
i know what would be nice, a excel sheet with all this data.
i wouldn't mind making one if i had all the data, but i'm thinking
someone here might've already done it.
-chris-
Pinball News
subject:
http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/flippers/
Cheers,
Martin.
www.pinballnews.com
c...@provide.net
Here's what you need to know:
1) EOS switch differences. Tungston contacts for
high power (non-fliptronics), gold contacts for
fliptronics games.
2) Flipper link differences. The tapered style is
used for compression return plunger springs.
The non-tapered style (thicker) is used for
the external (expansion) return spring.
In ALL situations, you want to go to the external
expansion spring style! The compression
spring style has a much shorter life span, and
is harder to service. So when ordering new parts
for games that used compression springs
(basically all non-fliptronics games), get the
new style pawl with the external expansion spring.
3) Plunger length, coil stop length, etc.
All irrelevent in my eye.
In TOP#7 we show exactly how to deal with
the issue of plunger and coil stop length.
It's a total NON-issue.
The reason it's a non issue is very simple,
you can make other adjustments to compensate
for this.
BOTTOM LINE: flipper tip travel is what you need
to have properely spec'ed. Again, this is shown
in TOP7 (and the repair guides). The plunger/stop
lengths effect flipper travel.
http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index3.htm#flip
I like my flipper tip travel to be 2 1/4". You may
like more or less than that. But at 2 1/4" tip
travel, that's a nice medium and about what
most games came with when new. It allows
you to trap the ball, but not too much "V" to
make the game overly easy (too much travel
can also damage the flipper link).
With this in mind, you can use ANY of the
current supplier's coil stop/plunger varieties
to get this amount of travel. Just install them,
and make the adjustments needed as shown
in TOP7.
This is the "low road" approach. The reason i
suggest it is simple - suppliers don't seem to
monitor the small differences in coil stop and
plunger lengths they sell. And instead of driving
them (and yourself) nuts, just use what you get,
and make the adjustments to get proper
flipper tip travel.
You can spend all your time sourcing the "right"
plunger/stop parts. But in the end, you'll see a
HUGE variance in supplier stock. Heck even
different batches of coil stops or plungers can have
different lengths! It's not worth all the trouble in the
end. I can make the adjustments on the game,
and spend more time fixing other stuff or playing!
After all, isn't that the idea?
John Wart, jr
produce them, I'm not too sure how 'freely' I would share the info IMO.
Terry's a great guy, but he has to eat too :) I'm sure if you present him
with specific questions privately, he will fill you in :)
--
--john
CARGPB34
http://www.myhomegameroom.com
<mega...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188292413....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Pinball Life
>
>- suppliers don't seem to
> monitor the small differences in coil stop and
> plunger lengths they sell. And instead of driving
> them (and yourself) nuts, just use what you get,
> and make the adjustments to get proper
> flipper tip travel.
Wrong. I monitor the small differences in the coil stop and plunger
lengths I sell. It's my job to to that so you don't have to "drive
yourself nuts." I'm not sure if you are familiar with the updated
kits I have put together addressing these very issues or not -
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=172&pg=1
> You can spend all your time sourcing the "right"
> plunger/stop parts. But in the end, you'll see a
> HUGE variance in supplier stock. Heck even
> different batches of coil stops or plungers can have
> different lengths! It's not worth all the trouble in the
> end. I can make the adjustments on the game,
> and spend more time fixing other stuff or playing!
> After all, isn't that the idea?
The difference in P2K plunger lengths and all other plunger lengths
from Firepower to Cactus Canyon is 0.042. Manufacturing tolorances
for plunger lengths is 0.003, manufacturing tolorances for coil stops
is even less than that. If a supplier is allowing stock to go out
with larger tolerances than above they are simply not doing their job.
You can not "make adjustments on the game" if your plunger is too long
on say, High Speed. The game already uses the shortest of the 3
modern coil stops - A-10821, so there's no substituting a shorter coil
stop to compensate. You could remove the rubber grommet to lengthen
your stroke, but the difference between grommet and no grommet is
0.134, about 3 times more than spec.
Just my 2 cents......
Terry.
www.pinballlife.com
c...@provide.net
well yea DUH, i'm not saying you should mix
High Speed parts with Pinball 2000 parts!
I'm talking about within WPC generations.
The difference in coil stops and plunger
lengths does change.
In the end, you can use any of the available
WPC generation parts, and just make
adjustments in the game to provide the
proper amount of flipper tip travel.
I'm glad you monitor this stuff. But the reality
of it is you and (maybe pinball resource)
seem to be the only ones that do that.
Everyone else doesn't seem to.
Again, i take the low-road approach. I get
what i can get (and sometimes that means
i need a part NOW and i go to the local
repair shop to get it.) Then after i install
it, i make adjustments to the game and
the parts to accomodate my requirements
in flipper tip travel.
Jason Bauer
c...@provide.net
I should also add that local suppliers
often have 'old stock' of plungers and coil
stops. and the europe guys have a whole
other set of suppliers.
the point it, you don't really know what you're
exactly getting (unless you buy from pinlife or
pinresource). and i just don't think it's worth
all the sweat - i just get what i can get, and
make the adjustments needed to get 2 1/4"
tip travel (which works well for 99% of the people
in 99% of the games).
now on the old system11 and prior WMS stuff,
definately go for the kits that Pinlife sell.
but what i'm talking about here is WPC era
plungers/stops.
CraigC -CPM-
everything up to make sure everything is to spec before i rebuild
flippers. I'm not a big fan of taking a pair of channel locks to a
flipper base plate.
competitive's stock was the worst with having the longer plungers
-c
c...@provide.net
wrote:
> Terry does monitor this stuff. I'm the picky bastard that sizes
> everything up to make sure everything is to spec before i rebuild
> flippers. I'm not a big fan of taking a pair of channel locks to a
> flipper base plate.
You're only bending the base plate
a tiny bit. it's not really detectible by
the eye.
and there are other factors involved
too. you can have perfect length
plungers/stops, and still not get the
2 1/4" flipper tip travel. this is often
due to worn rubber plunger rests
(something that none of the rebuild
kits include.) So my point is the same,
why worry about this? get the best
parts you can (PinLife, etc), and then
make the adjustments needed to get
optimal flipper tip travel.
I find i still make these adjustments
even after i get the exact right parts.
I like my games to play a certain way.
So minor adjustments are always
needed to get that.
the other way to change flipper tip
travel is of course to use a
bench grinder on the plunger tip
or coil stop. use the SIDE of the
rotating wheel to get a nice flat
surface. Then polish on a wire
wheel. But that's a lot more work,
and would mean install/removal
a few times to get it right. and the
plating gets removed from the parts,
so i'm not a big fan of doing this.
PT
era rebuild kits. I can't thank Terry enough for taking all the time
to research this subject! His prices are cheap too!
There are three types of WPC kits: early years, middle years and
P2000. From the player's perspective the only noticeable difference
in the kits is the flipper travel. For some reason WMS kept making
the travel shorter (rumor has it to make the machines harder and cut
ball times). So a TZ kit will have more travel than an AFM kit. An
AFM kit will have more travel than an RFM kit.
I HATE not having enough travel to properly catch the ball.
Personally I will buy Terry's early WPC kits for any WPC machines from
now on. In other words; I'd order a TZ kit to install in an AFM. But
that's just me...
I'm not nearly as familiar with the pre-WPC era kits, but I don't
recommend trying to swap parts from era to era.
Good luck
John
CraigC -CPM-
game and dial it in. when they get old the rubber gets harder and gets
a divot which can affect travel also.
I do monkey around a bit when i dial the game in. and i've mixed parts
from flipper eras to get the game play i want. on FT i went with the
shorter stops because i really liked to be able to be somewhat
consistant on back handing the lock shot.
-c
chuck
I bitched about this too when I first got into the hobby. Some people
told me there was no difference in the flippers ;-) Thanks terry for
stepping up to the plate and getting us correct parts.
Lloyd Olson
the flipper.
In top7 is that where you bend the base plate or coil stop ? This can cause
binding, and in commercial use severly shorten the lifespan of the
baseplate. LTG :)
<c...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:1188298025.7...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
cody chunn
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote in message
news:V-ednTf4Sufz-knb...@skypoint.com...
c...@provide.net
so i understand perfectly that you don't quite get it.
the base plate is not bent, it's the at rest portion
that is slightly bent. it doesn't take much to make
this adjustment, and it causes not binding. all
you are doing is moving the rest point of the
flipper link.
it all comes down to how you want your games
to play. there is only one company (besides what
terry is doing) making flipper plungers, stop,
and pawl assemblies. Aside from Pin Life (who is
having plungers custom made), if you get flipper
rebuilds anywhere else, chances are excellent
you WILL have to make these adjustments
to get that optimal 2 1/4 flipper tip travel.
> > for this.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Lloyd Olson
are talking about. So in fairness to me you should either name your source
of misinformation, or you owe me an apology. I don't have a blown out game
in my line up. Lloyd
<c...@provide.net> wrote in message
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c...@provide.net
> > so i understand perfectly that you don't quite get it.- Hide quoted text -
Lloyd Olson
<c...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:1188347244....@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Mighty Chris
Chris
Koz Pinlicious
because that is true, i have never been to your business so it isn't
my place to comment on the condition of your games. where clay got
this from was me running my mouth at a past em meeting where i said
other players had commented that your games weren't in the best
playing condition when they had played in past tournaments you have
held. never did i say i personally saw or played your machines. maybe
i will make a trip out to your place to see for myself in the future.
what i can comment on is the games clay sells out of his make-shift
store-front are *DUG UP COFFINS*. i have seen *those* POS's in person
and wouldn't add one to my personal collection unless i wanted black
mold infesting my gameroom.
i hope this sets the record straight for everyone :-)
Pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
(this isn't news to anyone... even clay knows those container games he
pimps are retired blown out hooker ass collecting social security :-)
ps- someone get clay a candy bar quick! ...he is getting delusional
again ;-)