[rec.games.netrek] Announcing the World Netrek League
World Netrek League
Dear Netrek Community,
Over the past year, it has been the feeling of many people that
netrek is experiencing a decline. There have been many hypotheses given
for this decline and even more suggestions for re-invigorating the game.
It is our opinion that there is no single reason for the decline and
probably no single way to revive the popularity that netrek had in its
prime.
We have asked Tom Holub to consider making several changes to the
INL and he has considered some. However, we do not feel the changes he is
willing to make are adequate. Because of this, we feel it is necessary to
nnounce a league designed to replace the INL. We have formed this new
league (the World Netrek League, WNL) with the intention of addressing
many of the failings which our fellow gamers have cited as reasons for
their displeasure in INL play. A partial list of these issues are:
1) Failure of games to start on or near the
designated starting time.
2) Failure of the game to be exciting and meaningful
over the entire duration of play.
3) Failure of teams to adequately schedule games.
4) Failure in notifying the gaming public of proper
procedures for requesting and resolving disputes.
These issues and others are fully disclosed in the attached
rulebook, which is also available on the league web page
(http://w1.netrek.org/wnl/). The new league committee would consist of the
following five members:
Dave Ahn (a...@vec.wfubmc.edu)
Karthik Arumugham (kar...@arumugham.com)
Kevin Bernatz (kber...@pitt.edu)
Jiteshkumar B. Patel (fugi...@lek.ugcs.caltech.edu)
Dave Swasey (swa...@cs.cmu.edu)
and can be reached by mailing to: w...@lagparty.org.
Early submission for the league is being taken now, but the actual
submission period will begin around September 1st and last until
the end of September. Schedules will be released shortly thereafter.
directed to the league organizers, either through email or through the
league web page.
It is not that we feel Tom has done a poor job in organizing and
running the INL, quite the opposite in fact. However, we feel it is time
for change to re-invigorate netrek and that the change has to start from
the top. In addition to the five WNL members listed above, all captains
of current WNL teams would be considered equal members of the league
committee.
Our first act is to offer a publically available version of
the new league rulebook. Many small changes and a few major changes to
the operation of the league have been carefully considered. It is our
belief that all these changes will lead to a better league and hopefully
eliminate the majority of complaints people have about the current status
and quality of league games. It is not the end all towards reviving
netrek, but we feel it is a signficant step in the right direction. We
have attached the rulebook that would be used for the league. It is our
desire and commitment to provide the netrek community with an exciting
league and to encourage games that are both exciting to play and of the
highest quality.
-WNL organizers
Dave Ahn
Karthik Arumugham
Kevin Bernatz
Jiteshkumar B. Patel
Dave Swasey
w...@lagparty.org
Steve Sheldon
"World Netrek League" <w...@lagparty.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.20.000819...@k6.crackaddict.com...
> Announcing the World Netrek League! - http://w1.netrek.org/wnl/
And you actually think this is a good idea?
Daniel Damouth
I suggest we split our netrek teams between the two leagues. That
way no one will actually have to play.
-Dan Damouth
--
Buffy [to Angel]: I know everything that you did, because you did it to me.
"Amends"
John Morgan Salomon
"I can't have it my way, so I'll go play back at my house. Humf."
I don't seem to recall anybody volunteering any constructive suggestions
for the INL council.
But then again, maybe this will be as promising and successful as
World League Football (tm)!
-John
Fuzzy Helmet Cam
In article <Pine.LNX.4.20.000819...@k6.crackaddict.com>,
World Netrek League <rec.game...@us.netrek.org> wrote:
>Announcing the World Netrek League! - http://w1.netrek.org/wnl/
>
--
This is an official Press Release of Z.O.G. Laboratories International
Department of Propaganda
ZOGNET: zog.net, zog.ch
Kevin M Bernatz
Why? Because we feel that netrek is dying and are actually
trying to do something about it? When the first draft league started
it had less players participating in it than the INL. As time has gone
by, the INL player base has dropped while the DL has remained steady
or even has grown. While the WNL is *not* a draft-based league, it
certainly seems to suggest that the problem is inherent to the INL and
changes should be made to address these problems.
>"I can't have it my way, so I'll go play back at my house. Humf."
>I don't seem to recall anybody volunteering any constructive suggestions
>for the INL council.
What INL council John? There hasn't been an active INL council for
at least 2+ years. ALL INL activity has been handled exclusively by Tom.
He's even admitted that the INLC is a "committee" in name only. We asked
to take over the INL from him to make some changs to the INL. We asked
to have several (in our opinion) important changes made and he decided
against both offers. What other recourse do we have?
Take some time and look at the rulebook and see the changes that
we have made. In addition, realize that the league is controlled by the
captains, so if a rule isn't liked it can be voted on to be replaced in
the next season. We do not want to compete against the INL. We want to
replace it as a better, more enjoyable and more structured league.
The WNL rules are available on the web at the URL that Karthik
posted. The page is still under construction, but the rules are complete.
-K
a WNL organizer
--
Patent Examiner
U.S. Patent & Trademark Office
Crystal Plaza 3, Room 11B11
(703) 308-1737
Tom Holub
Kevin M Bernatz <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote:
)
) What INL council John? There hasn't been an active INL council for
)at least 2+ years. ALL INL activity has been handled exclusively by Tom.
)He's even admitted that the INLC is a "committee" in name only. We asked
)to take over the INL from him to make some changs to the INL.
I have asked for people interested in helping with the INL for several
years now. Dave Ahn did ask to be on the list a couple of years ago;
he has sent one or two INL Council-related mails. Other than that, no
one in this group has asked to be on the Council or even made any
suggestions.
So, if you're so concerned about the direction of the INL, why haven't
you asked to participate?
) We asked
)to have several (in our opinion) important changes made and he decided
)against both offers. What other recourse do we have?
This is not what happened. What happened was, you mailed me saying
"We want you to step down as head of the INL". Period. Not a single
suggestion.
Then when I asked what your plans were, you showed me a rulebook with
rules specifically crafted so I and my team could not participate.
"How do we revive league netrek? Let's lock out the one team that's
been in existence since day 1!"
A simple perusal of the Weenie Netrek League organizer list, and
examination of its actions shows its agenda; power games. I mean,
come on, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you have
Jettish on the organizing board?
The INL will continue. We are still looking for people who are
interested in working with the existing system, and players and teams
interested in playing. There will be an INL season, and it will be a
lot more fun than whatever WNL season occurs, because nothing is more
boring than a continuous scoring game.
-Tom
Steve Sheldon
"Tom Holub" <do...@best.com> wrote in message
news:liTn5.3725$R87.67991@sjc-read...
>
> A simple perusal of the Weenie Netrek League organizer list, and
> examination of its actions shows its agenda; power games. I mean,
> come on, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you have
> Jettish on the organizing board?
I have to agree with Tom on that one point.
My concern is that Jitesh has been whining for years about the
"self-appointed" Tom Holub master of the Universe and INL.
And so then he's involved with creating a new league where he self-appoints
himself as master? Why not have a vote? How did this Central Committee get
appointed?
Then again this will certainly streamline the complaints department, since
he's the root cause of most of them with his whiny little tirades before
each game.
So yes, basically I think you'd have a lot more credibility without Jitesh
on the paperwork.
Jeff Nowakowski
Oh Kevin. All that schooling! You're not trying to be like Einstein, are
you?
-Jeff (specter)
John Morgan Salomon
you guys (except Dave Ahn) volunteering to help revive it. As far as I
can tell, and admittedly I may be misinformed due to not actively
participating myself for quite some time now, Tom is the only person who has
put constant effort in keeping a form of organized league netrek alive.
The alternatives to the INL have been numerous admirable, albeit failed
attempts at draft leagues--they simply didn't seem credible enough in the
long run to attract players and teams.
Similarly, I think it's cool that you've come up with modifications to the
game instead of just talking about them. I haven' tried continuous scoring,
for example, but it's neat that people are introducing new ideas into the
kind of discussions that have formed the game.
So: I hate to badmouth any form of work, however misguided, done towards
growing or improving netrek. However, I can't help but get the feeling that
this is nothing more than a personal grudge match thinly disguised as some
twisted kind of netrek community service. Sorry, Kevin.
-John
Fuzzy Goddammit I Need NET
In article <8nokfn$60a$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
Kevin M Bernatz <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote:
<blah>
> What INL council John? There hasn't been an active INL council for
>at least 2+ years. ALL INL activity has been handled exclusively by Tom.
<blah>
>-K
> a WNL organizer
>--
>Patent Examiner
>U.S. Patent & Trademark Office
>Crystal Plaza 3, Room 11B11
>(703) 308-1737
Shawn K. Quinn
World Netrek League <w...@lagparty.org> wrote:
| Over the past year, it has been the feeling of many people
| that netrek is experiencing a decline. There have been many
| hypotheses given for this decline and even more suggestions for
| re-invigorating the game. It is our opinion that there is no single
| reason for the decline and probably no single way to revive the
| popularity that netrek had in its prime.
I would be interested in playing on any team that needs an additional
player, even if it's just a substitute.
--
Shawn K. Quinn
Niclas Fredriksson
> We do not want to compete against the INL. We want to
> replace it as a better, more enjoyable and more structured league.
Heh, "we do not want to compete against the INL, we just want the INL to
go away entirely so that there is only one league which is the WNL". :)
I like both leagues and I hope I get to play in both. The more clue games
the better.
It kinda sucks that the WNL will use the stupid continuous scoring mode
though. Other than that it all seems great.
Regards,
Niclas
Kevin M Bernatz
>you guys (except Dave Ahn) volunteering to help revive it. As far as I
Basically true. To be honest, I've simply been too busy to
really devote the time up until about 6 months ago. Heck, I haven't
captained an INL or DL team in about 2-3 years (and I used to be a
regular captain in every season).
>can tell, and admittedly I may be misinformed due to not actively
>participating myself for quite some time now, Tom is the only person who has
>put constant effort in keeping a form of organized league netrek alive.
>
>The alternatives to the INL have been numerous admirable, albeit failed
>attempts at draft leagues--they simply didn't seem credible enough in the
>long run to attract players and teams.
Why do you say the DL (which IMO is a form of 'organized league
netrek') were failures? They were never designed to last more than one
season and they all had very good sign-ups of many people who never played
INL. Sure, they had attendance problems at times...but look at the past
couple INL seasons and you will see the same behavior.
>Similarly, I think it's cool that you've come up with modifications to the
>game instead of just talking about them. I haven' tried continuous scoring,
>for example, but it's neat that people are introducing new ideas into the
>kind of discussions that have formed the game.
Thanks.
>So: I hate to badmouth any form of work, however misguided, done towards
>growing or improving netrek. However, I can't help but get the feeling that
>this is nothing more than a personal grudge match thinly disguised as some
>twisted kind of netrek community service. Sorry, Kevin.
You're allowed to badmouth. Of course we're going to meet with some
criticism and some strong sentiments against change. It would be unrealistic
for us to believe otherwise. But we feel that our product (read: league)
really does offer many advantages over what the current INL offers. Yes, Tom,
Jitesh and I have all had our fair share of conflicts. There is certainly no
love lost between the three of us. But what I think people have to realize
(and this addresses both Tom and Steve's post) is that NO one person has
final say in the WNL. It is completely unlike the INL in that regard, where
Tom has final say on everything. Jitesh is one vote. One vote out of 5+X,
where X is the number of captains in the league (maybe 5-8?). So he's
one vote out of 10. Big deal. His opinion is his opinion, but it doesn't
mean anything if 2, 3, 5 or 9 people feel otherwise.
I'll be honest, 90% of the changes were suggested by someone OTHER
than Jitesh...and it was rare that Jitesh's vote on any issue was the
deciding vote. If you want to judge the WNL league, judge us on the
changes we are making. Don't judge us on someone that has 1/10th of the
voice of the combined comittee once the league starts.
For example, Tom mentioned that the changes we proposed were
designed to prevent the GB from playing. This is untrue. We have made the
league to work on a fixed schedule and to require that games start within
15 min. of the start time. In response to Tom's statement regarding his
team being unable to make 9:00 PM EST game times, we pushed one day back
to 9:30 PM EST and Sundays back to 3:30 PM EST (from 3:00). There are also
rules for asking for additional 15 min. delays that can be agreed upon by
both captains.
Tom also mentioned that continuous scoring games are boring. This
is just a prefernce of his, many people that I have talked to feel the
"sit and stash" games that have become common place in INL play are equally
boring. To address the issue of continuous scoring games that may be
over in the first 30 minutes, we have added a swiss-style scoring for
team ranking purposes. This means that a team needs to perform to their
expectations to win points...and winning the game does not guarentee that
they will win points if they don't play to their full potential. So if a
weaker team can keep the continuous score close..even if they "lose", they
can still go up in points after the game.
There are other changes we have made, but these are the two most
controversial. And again, the league is set-up to handle changes by
comittee voting. And all captains can initiate a vote. The league
organizers are just suplimentary to the captains, not "above" them.
-K
WNL Organizer
P.S. Patent examiner != lawyer, Jeff :)....though maybe in 4-5 years I'll
get the law degree and start my own firm :).
Steve Sheldon
"Jeff Nowakowski" <jef...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote in message
news:87vgwwn...@ccs.neu.edu...
> > U.S. Patent & Trademark Office
>
> you?
I always thought it would be interesting to be a Patent Examiner.
I just hope that Kevin realizes he is working at the only organization more
EV33L than Microsoft, according to the minions of slashdot. :)
John Morgan Salomon
Kevin M Bernatz <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote:
> Why do you say the DL (which IMO is a form of 'organized league
>netrek') were failures? They were never designed to last more than one
>season and they all had very good sign-ups of many people who never played
>INL. Sure, they had attendance problems at times...but look at the past
>couple INL seasons and you will see the same behavior.
Sorry, matter of perspective. I thought I remembered some attempts to
keep a formal long-term DL going. Let me revise that to "failed to create
a structured lasting alternative to the INL."
> <stuff>
I'm still curious about one thing. Tom and you both agree that you submitted
a proposed set of rule changes. Apparently Tom, as only active member of the
INL council, vetoed it. So assuming you want to put together some sort of
democratic every-captain-has-his-say replacement league, hasn't it ever
occurred to anyone to maybe submit your changes after volunteering to join
the INLC, and helping to organize and participate in some meetings? As I
recall, all listed members of the INLC are supposed to get an equal vote,
so why hasn't anyone considered doing business that way?
I really don't think this is helping. I wonder whether anyone cares, though.
>-K
> WNL Organizer
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
>P.S. Patent examiner != lawyer, Jeff :)....though maybe in 4-5 years I'll
>get the law degree and start my own firm :).
ps: I've been meaning to patent Battle Blob. I'll need your help.
Tom Holub
)I'm still curious about one thing. Tom and you both agree that you submitted
)a proposed set of rule changes. Apparently Tom, as only active member of the
)INL council, vetoed it.
I didn't veto them; I agreed with some of the changes, am planning to
implement some similar measures in a different way, and disagreed with
others, particularly continuous scoring and fuck-the-west-coast starting
times with forfeit penalties.
-Tom
Jeffrey Nowakowski
>
> I'm still curious about one thing. Tom and you both agree that you submitted
> democratic every-captain-has-his-say replacement league, hasn't it ever
> occurred to anyone to maybe submit your changes after volunteering to join
> the INLC, and helping to organize and participate in some meetings? As I
> recall, all listed members of the INLC are supposed to get an equal vote,
> so why hasn't anyone considered doing business that way?
The INLC is a mailing list. Period. Anybody can get on it. People
on the list have no formal voting power. They can provide feedback,
but that is it. Once in a while Tom will submit issues to the list
when he has a confilict of interest.
Things were less controversial when Andrew was making decisions with
Tom. Like sweet and sour, yin and yang, McCartney and Lennon.
-Jeff
Tom Holub
Jeffrey Nowakowski <jef...@denali.ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
)jo...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (John Morgan Salomon) writes:
)>
)> I'm still curious about one thing. Tom and you both agree that you submitted
)> a proposed set of rule changes. Apparently Tom, as only active member of the
)> INL council, vetoed it. So assuming you want to put together some sort of
)> democratic every-captain-has-his-say replacement league, hasn't it ever
)> occurred to anyone to maybe submit your changes after volunteering to join
)> the INLC, and helping to organize and participate in some meetings? As I
)> recall, all listed members of the INLC are supposed to get an equal vote,
)> so why hasn't anyone considered doing business that way?
)
)The INLC is a mailing list. Period. Anybody can get on it. People
)on the list have no formal voting power. They can provide feedback,
)but that is it. Once in a while Tom will submit issues to the list
)when he has a confilict of interest.
)
)Things were less controversial when Andrew was making decisions with
)Tom. Like sweet and sour, yin and yang, McCartney and Lennon.
The INLC is a mailing list only because no one else does anything.
The INLC has been a very active and democratic group in the past;
the only problem with democracy on the net is that it's very slow.
As people stopped responding to mail, I gradually took over doing
things.
Really, though, there have been very few decisions made by either me
or the Council in recent seasons; only a few end-of-season things
about forfeits and extensions. My main task is just managing teams,
rosters and schedules, which isn't democratizable.
-Tom
John Morgan Salomon
do the administrative work of managing rosters, would a few people be
willing to be council members and vote on controversial issues?
I'd volunteer; as I may be biased, having played on GB, I nominate
Kevin Bernatz (Akira) as well...
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
In article <Fjco5.3789$R87.72476@sjc-read>, Tom Holub <do...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <wzdsnry...@denali.ccs.neu.edu>,
>The INLC is a mailing list only because no one else does anything.
>The INLC has been a very active and democratic group in the past;
>the only problem with democracy on the net is that it's very slow.
>As people stopped responding to mail, I gradually took over doing
>things.
>
>Really, though, there have been very few decisions made by either me
>or the Council in recent seasons; only a few end-of-season things
>about forfeits and extensions. My main task is just managing teams,
>rosters and schedules, which isn't democratizable.
> -Tom
Kevin M Bernatz
>
>I didn't veto them; I agreed with some of the changes, am planning to
>implement some similar measures in a different way, and disagreed with
>others, particularly continuous scoring and fuck-the-west-coast starting
>times with forfeit penalties.
> -Tom
We basically submitted a "rulebook" to Tom and asked him to consider
making the changes to the INL, with one of the changes being the disbanding
of the current INLC and making a new one based on how the WNL is set-up
now (with or without Tom staying an active member). His response was
basically what he wrote above...he agreed that some were good ideas and
strongly disliked others. One thing that has always caused me problems
is that the '"fuck-the-west-coast" starting times', as Tom says, really only
seem to be a problem with a minority of West Coast players (which all
happen to be on GB). And we attempted to address this issue in the new
release of the rules.
As far as continuous scoring goes, I know for a fact that Dan was
complaining at every DL game how the "stash and dash" strategy was boring
and not fun. Tim (Stack) said he would prob. stop playing league netrek
for the same reason. Sure, maybe continuous scoring isn't the Golden
Fleece, but at least its an attempt to address concerns that are causing
people to leave the game. Our initial offer to Tom was to take over the
INL for the season and make our changes. If people didn't like them, they
could easily have said "Bah, we want the old way back". But Tom refused, so
again I ask, what other recourse do we have?
The answer is we start a new league, encourage everyone to sign up
for at least the first season and see if they like the changes. If they
don't, fine. If they do, even better.
-K
WNL Organizer
--
Patent Examiner
U.S. Patent & Trademark Office
Crystal Plaza 3, Room 11B11
Crystal City, Alexandria
Kevin M Bernatz
>do the administrative work of managing rosters, would a few people be
>willing to be council members and vote on controversial issues?
>
>I'd volunteer; as I may be biased, having played on GB, I nominate
>Kevin Bernatz (Akira) as well...
What is it about me? Obviously you wouldn't know this, but that's
how I got on the WNL committee...Swasey "nominated" me to participate.
-K
Tom Holub
)>
)>I didn't veto them; I agreed with some of the changes, am planning to
)>implement some similar measures in a different way, and disagreed with
)>others, particularly continuous scoring and fuck-the-west-coast starting
)>times with forfeit penalties.
)> -Tom
)
) We basically submitted a "rulebook" to Tom and asked him to consider
)making the changes to the INL, with one of the changes being the disbanding
)of the current INLC and making a new one based on how the WNL is set-up
)now (with or without Tom staying an active member).
This is completely false. You asked me to step down, full stop,
without submitting anything at all to me. I then asked what your rule
changes were to be, and you gave me the URL of your rulebook. Never
was it suggested that I become an active member of the WNL organizing
committee.
)strongly disliked others. One thing that has always caused me problems
)is that the '"fuck-the-west-coast" starting times', as Tom says, really only
)seem to be a problem with a minority of West Coast players (which all
)happen to be on GB).
SMACK Pack, and when it existed, LaggU, had similar problems with showing
up on time. I guarantee that if the games were at 6PM Eastern time that
your teams would have trouble showing up on time to. I guarantee with as
much certainty that if the games were at 9PM Pacific time that GB would
have no problems arriving on time. Would that be fair to the east coast?
That's why a *fair* system allows for flexibility.
) As far as continuous scoring goes, I know for a fact that Dan was
)complaining at every DL game how the "stash and dash" strategy was boring
)and not fun.
There is JUST AS MUCH stashing in continuous scoring games; the difference
is the game is also over by the halfway point, or if it's close, there's
no way to tell who's ahead or what you need to do to win.
)INL for the season and make our changes. If people didn't like them, they
)could easily have said "Bah, we want the old way back". But Tom refused, so
)again I ask, what other recourse do we have?
You had made your decision before I refused; you're being completely
disingenuous here. You'd already come up with the NAME for your league
for chrissakes.
-Tom
John Morgan Salomon
a season" rub me the wrong way. The only thing people are asking for is
participation, not takeover. And as for the continuous scoring thing, I
could easily see a group of people (like oh, I don't know, an INL Council?)
voting on whether or not to try it as an alternative for games where both
captains agree on it. Just scrapping and trying new stuff, boom, otherwise
we're not going to play with you, is not a great way to go, regardless of
who's telling the truth. That part, frankly, is not relevant.
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
In article <8nrlgl$hen$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
Kevin M Bernatz <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote:
<stuff>
>-K
John Morgan Salomon
long enough to know how the game works, you're apparently willing to put
some effort into a league, you're a vocal contributor to r.g.n., and judging
from your exchanges with Tom, you'd provide some Yin to his Yang.
Not that I'd want to see either of your Yinyangs.
I get the feeling that if it's possible to get about 4 people together who're
reasonably representative of the netrek players, active and passive, who
read this newsgroup or are interested in the game, and who are willing
to work within an established framework instead of going off and pouting in
a corner when things don't go their way, a lot of the shit that bothers you
about the INL wouldn't be the way it is.
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
In article <8nrljn$hf1$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
Kevin M Bernatz <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote:
Kevin M Bernatz
>)making the changes to the INL, with one of the changes being the disbanding
>)of the current INLC and making a new one based on how the WNL is set-up
>)now (with or without Tom staying an active member).
>
>This is completely false. You asked me to step down, full stop,
>without submitting anything at all to me. I then asked what your rule
>changes were to be, and you gave me the URL of your rulebook. Never
>was it suggested that I become an active member of the WNL organizing
>committee.
Actually, you're only partially correct. The first email
exchange was:
(not counting the one that Swasey sent to you *very* early on
suggesting potential changes to the league...an email which you never
even responded to according to Dave)
********partial excerpt of email below*********
...
Over the past two months, a group of us have been talking about
methods to revive high clue netrek. One change is a reworking of how the
league handles scheduling and decision making. We have spent the past
weeks revising the INL rulebook to accommodate the changes we feel are
needed for the league.
You have been the head of the INLC and league for many years and
have done an excellent job in making sure things have run smoothly.
However, we feel that the best way to initiate the changes we desire is to
start from the top. Since there is no forum for removing the INLC, per
se, we are asking you to step down from the INLC and let us take over for
the following season. We will post a message to rgn detailing the changes
to the league and letting people know that if they think the upcoming
season is a failure, that we will return control of the league to you.
...
Again, we appreciate all that you have done towards making the INL
successful and hope that you will continue to volunteer your time and
knowledge, as well as captaining a team in the league. If you decline to
step down, we will be forced to offer the new league to the netrek
community, probably in direct competition to the INL. In our opinion,
this could be detrimental to the survival of netrek in general, but we
feel strongly that change is necessary or high-clue netrek will eventually
die anyways.
*************end excerpt***********
So yes, initially we did not send you the rules (though the second
email contained the entire rulebook, not just a url pointing to it). The
first sentence of the 3rd paragraph was what I was referring to as your
continued participation (since a captain is 100% equivialent to an
"organizer" in the WNL).
>SMACK Pack, and when it existed, LaggU, had similar problems with showing
>up on time. I guarantee that if the games were at 6PM Eastern time that
>your teams would have trouble showing up on time to. I guarantee with as
>much certainty that if the games were at 9PM Pacific time that GB would
>have no problems arriving on time. Would that be fair to the east coast?
>
>That's why a *fair* system allows for flexibility.
Sorry, I don't remember ever having a problem with LaggU or SMACK
Pack showing up within 15-20 minutes of the start time. And even 20-30
minutes is somewhat acceptable...it was only GB where the game would be
delayed 45+ minutes some times (admittedly, not always). Also, one of the
*biggest* complaints during the DLs was the lack of games starting on
time. More people complained about that than any other issue (I'm sure
anyone who was in the last DL will agree with me on that).
>There is JUST AS MUCH stashing in continuous scoring games; the difference
>is the game is also over by the halfway point, or if it's close, there's
>no way to tell who's ahead or what you need to do to win.
You're right. On both accounts. But that is *NOT* how the WNL
is structured any more (and part of this was through your raising these
issues and through the clue games testing continuous scoring). With the
swiss-style ranking, teams can't afford to just stash and dash if they're
playing a team that has significantly less points than them (I believe the
rulebook has some examples). As far as no way to tell who's ahead, that's
just plain wrong...but currently you are correct in that it is very
difficult to know what you need to do to come back in a cont. scored game.
We're still considering suggestions on ways to improve that.
>You had made your decision before I refused; you're being completely
>disingenuous here. You'd already come up with the NAME for your league
>for chrissakes.
> -Tom
Well, we had been talking about all the changes for a good 3
months before finalizing them and emailing you. One of the (very realistic)
possibilities was that you would not be receptive and we would have to make
a decision on whether to start a new league or just abandon everything. We
decided that starting a new league would be the lesser of two evils and it
was only natural to start talking about a new name (you don't want to know
some of the other suggestions that came up :>).
-K
self-appointed PR director, WNL
Doug Pitters
One of the interesting things about breaks (or attempted breaks) like this
is that they can potentially stimulate one group into actually getting their
act together.
Of course, conventional wisdom would seem to say that the last thing you
want to do when you have an organization/playerbase in decline is to further
splinter the group. It can potentially lead to greater stratification,
confusion, and chaos, in a time when the last thing you want to attract new
players is stratification, confusion and chaos.
So the question that results from this announcement is whether this new
league will be positive for netrek? The timing of the announcement seems to
coincide with the beginning of the upcoming INL season, so it leaves players
with choices.
Should a given player play in both the INL and WNL? That will most likely
result in more games of clued netrek for that player. The last INL season
was played with scheduling conflicts, which leads me to believe that this is
not a feasible option for many netrek players.
So naturally this means that based on each person's individual sets of
criteria, a player will decide to play either INL or WNL this season.
Entire teams may potentially jump leagues, and depending on the quality of
those teams, make the pursuit of a championship in either league somewhat of
a travesty. Even though they say they are not trying to compete with the
INL, competing is exactly what they are doing.
Perhaps this argument is moot in the face of what the WNL is trying to
accomplish as specified in the beginning of its announcement. It is
probably more important to solve the problems of scheduling and in-game
excitement than it is to keep the playerbase together.
I honestly do not know. What I do know is that I have known Kevin for a
long time, and have always had respect for his love of the game, for his
skill playing it, and for his passion for winning. So I certainly hope he
gave a great deal of thought to the impact of this announcement and this new
enterprise before endorsing it or joining it.
I also thought for some reason that Dave Ahn was on the INLC. Does this
mean he will be on both the INL Council and the new WNL committee?
For what its worth, some players have stepped up and asked to be involved in
the administration of the league this coming season. Whether this fact is
moot; whether the death of the INL is upon us remains to be seen.
What will YOU decide?
-doug
Suboceana 3:16
Yomyung Leem
>
> What will YOU decide?
I've decided not to play in either leagues.
John Morgan Salomon
Doug Pitters <ima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<War & Peace deleted>
>What will YOU decide?
I decide to nominate Subby! for the INLC. Can we have elections?
>-doug
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
Steve Sheldon
"Kevin M Bernatz" <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote in message
news:8nrljn$hf1$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu...
> > In article <8nrl2a$c71$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> >John Morgan Salomon <jo...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
> >So why don't we get a proper INLC together again? If Tom's willing to
> >do the administrative work of managing rosters, would a few people be
> >willing to be council members and vote on controversial issues?
> >
> >I'd volunteer; as I may be biased, having played on GB, I nominate
> >Kevin Bernatz (Akira) as well...
>
> What is it about me? Obviously you wouldn't know this, but that's
> how I got on the WNL committee...Swasey "nominated" me to participate.
Don't know.
But I second the nomination. :)
Steve Sheldon
"John Morgan Salomon" <jo...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:8ns7ba$e21$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> In article <4Reo5.159$tM2....@news.goodnet.com>,
> Doug Pitters <ima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> <War & Peace deleted>
>
> >What will YOU decide?
>
> I decide to nominate Subby! for the INLC. Can we have elections?
I second the nomination.
Steve Sheldon
"Yomyung Leem" <le...@lucent.com> wrote in message
news:39A18D76...@lucent.com...
> Doug Pitters wrote:
>
> >
> > What will YOU decide?
>
Actually same here. :(
Zachary Uram
The motion is carried! :)
________________________________________________________
ur...@cmu.edu
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have faith." - John 20:29
Kevin M Bernatz
Why? (Honestly. Is it something in particular about league netrek
that you don't like/enjoy?, is it lack of time?, etc? If it's frustration
with the way the INL has been handled, then I encourage you to at least give
the WNL a shot. It certainly is better than not playing in either, IMO.)
-K
Kevin M Bernatz
>want to do when you have an organization/playerbase in decline is to further
>splinter the group. It can potentially lead to greater stratification,
>confusion, and chaos, in a time when the last thing you want to attract new
>players is stratification, confusion and chaos.
Agreed. This was not done just "on a whim"...as I said, we talked
about this for a good 4-6 months before even approaching Tom about any
changes to the INL/forming a competing league.
>So the question that results from this announcement is whether this new
>league will be positive for netrek? The timing of the announcement seems to
>coincide with the beginning of the upcoming INL season, so it leaves players
>with choices.
We were interested in giving people choices and in seeing the
participation that the INL was going to generate. As it stands, there are
only 2 full teams and 2 half teams listed on the INL rosters page.
>Should a given player play in both the INL and WNL? That will most likely
>result in more games of clued netrek for that player. The last INL season
>was played with scheduling conflicts, which leads me to believe that this is
>not a feasible option for many netrek players.
Based on the above # of teams signed up for the INL, I doubt both
leagues could field mutually exclusive sets of teams. It will have to come
down to a choice between the old and the new.
>So naturally this means that based on each person's individual sets of
>criteria, a player will decide to play either INL or WNL this season.
>Entire teams may potentially jump leagues, and depending on the quality of
>those teams, make the pursuit of a championship in either league somewhat of
>a travesty. Even though they say they are not trying to compete with the
>INL, competing is exactly what they are doing.
Competing in the sense that we want to replace the INL. We do not
want two leagues any more than you do. We want just the WNL.
>Perhaps this argument is moot in the face of what the WNL is trying to
>accomplish as specified in the beginning of its announcement. It is
>probably more important to solve the problems of scheduling and in-game
>excitement than it is to keep the playerbase together.
I don't know if you can separate the two. The important thing is
to (a) keep the players we have and (b) get new players to join. For
some reason, the DL seems to be able to do (b) and the INL has failed to do
(a) for the past several seasons. We're hoping that by responding to issues
raised by active, league players that we can address (a) and keep people
from leaving the game. Other issues that I think we need to address for
(a) and (b) are personal responsibility and accountability for people's
actions towards other players (especially newer players)...but NOTE that
this is NOT a WNL agenda, but my personal feelings. And yes, I know who
is on the WNLC.
>I also thought for some reason that Dave Ahn was on the INLC. Does this
>mean he will be on both the INL Council and the new WNL committee?
It will prob. not be a concern, since I know Dave is facing very
heavy time constraints and may be forced to drop from active participation
in both councils. We'll know more as time develops.
>For what its worth, some players have stepped up and asked to be involved in
>the administration of the league this coming season. Whether this fact is
>moot; whether the death of the INL is upon us remains to be seen.
Several people have made comments related to nominating people to
the INLC or "why we didn't join the INLC", etc. I want to pose the reasoning
behind our motivation of why we did not "go through the INLC" for the changes
that we want to add.
Assume 3-4 months ago that the 5 WNLC members asked Tom to join the
INLC. First, there is no official policy on how INLC members are added.
Does Tom have to add us? Does Tom have unlimited say on who is added (or
course meaning that there is no way he would add Jitesh)? Let us assume for
arguments sake that Tom *does* add everyone. So now we say "We want to have
continuous scoring for next season". What do you *honestly* think would have
happened? If we voted, it would be 5-1 FOR adding it (well..maybe 4-2 since
I don't even think it was unanimous in the WNLC). Do you really think Tom
would add it? No. He would make an executive veto and just say "no, its
not <foo> or <bar>, so it's not going to be used." Same goes with fixed
starting times, and possibily other issues. Our *input* would be used, but
we would have no say in anything. That is the way the INLC has worked ever
since Grey Elf left it. It's NOT Tom's fault. Just all the other INLC
members just don't give a shit....and there was never a concrete system of
what to do in that case, etc. This was why our first "proposal" to Tom was
to basically replace the ENTIRE INLC (himself included) and start from
scratch. Which is what the WNLC is essentially doing. But now we have
concrete rules on WHO is on the committee, how committee members can be
added, etc. The only rules that need to be worked on (I think) are adding
new organizers....but that may even be in there (majority vote of active
members to add a new organizer, with a maximum of 5 organizers/season and
organizers are removed if they do not play in the WNL for 2 seasons in a
row..though I think they can petition to remain as an organizer in this
case but need a majority vote of active WNLC members to be retained).
Hopefully this explains why we approached the situation as we did. We
thought it was the only way to get our changes made. Changes that we feel
strongly in and feel are benifitial to the netrek community, and league
games, in general. Sure, maybe we're wrong..maybe we'll completely fall
flat on our faces...but wouldn't you like to see first? The WNL isn't
meant to be completely different than the INL. It's BASED on the INL.
We tried to take all the positive aspects of the INL and then correct some
of the negative ones. And one of the biggest negative ones is the lack of
any official "rules" for getting a new committee and getting changes made
to the league. IMNSHO, the WNL addresses these two issues very nicely.
-K
WNL PR director
Steve Sheldon
> >In article <39A18D76...@lucent.com>,
> >Yomyung Leem <le...@lucent.com> wrote:
> >
> >I've decided not to play in either leagues.
>
> Why? (Honestly. Is it something in particular about league netrek
> that you don't like/enjoy?, is it lack of time?, etc? If it's frustration
> with the way the INL has been handled, then I encourage you to at least
give
> the WNL a shot. It certainly is better than not playing in either, IMO.)
Hard to devote the time when you're working for the man.
Jeffrey Nowakowski
> to (a) keep the players we have and (b) get new players to join. For
> some reason, the DL seems to be able to do (b) and the INL has failed to do
> (a) for the past several seasons.
The DL gets more players because it is easier to draft teams from a
pool than to get the pool to self-organize into teams. I'm surprised
you guys didn't propose a Draft League to replace the INL, since that
was being discussed during the last DL. This is the only way any
interesting league play is going to survive.
The INL is declining because the playerbase is declining. Continuous
scoring is not going to help with that.
-Jeff (specter)
Kevin M Bernatz
>Jeffrey Nowakowski <jef...@denali.ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
>kber...@pitt.edu (Kevin M Bernatz) writes:
>
>The DL gets more players because it is easier to draft teams from a
>pool than to get the pool to self-organize into teams. I'm surprised
>you guys didn't propose a Draft League to replace the INL, since that
>was being discussed during the last DL. This is the only way any
>interesting league play is going to survive.
We thought about this (and debated it), but in the end we thought
the majority of people would oppose such a change since everyone likes
to play with people they know. We threw out ideas like "restricted
free agents" and "franchise players", etc...where a captain could keep
a core of friends and "fill in the rest" by drafting, but it started
to get too complicated and made people chose "who they liked best". I'm
sure it's something that can be considered in the future, if people
wanted to switch to some sort of drafting process the WNLC could vote
on it at the time.
In theory, since the captains of WNL teams have an equal voice
they are akin to a US Senator and the players on their teams are the
'silent majority' or 'influence' on the Senators, making it that everyone
gets a voice in what happens in the league they play in. If people are
happy or don't need change, then the league functions fine, too.
-K
Tom Holub
Kevin M Bernatz <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote:
)
) It will prob. not be a concern, since I know Dave is facing very
)heavy time constraints and may be forced to drop from active participation
)in both councils. We'll know more as time develops.
Will that be like the two separate times where, in positions of
responsibility (once as Statboy and once as INL Robot maintainer), he
completely dropped out of sight and stopped responding to e-mails?
) Assume 3-4 months ago that the 5 WNLC members asked Tom to join the
)INLC. First, there is no official policy on how INLC members are added.
Yes there is; you ask. I've made that clear repeatedly.
-Tom
Tom Holub
)the majority of people would oppose such a change since everyone likes
)to play with people they know.
Translation: everyone on the WNL organizing committee is a cluestacker.
Of course that means that they'll all want to be on the same WNL team
and they can just beat off in intra-squad scrimmages.
-Tom
Jeffrey Nowakowski
And yet the majority of players played in the last draft league. The
last INL season was a joke. I subbed for numerous games where people
simply could not field teams. The WNL is not going to fix this.
Most of the draft league games were close and fun to play in. There
were some attendance problems, but they were very minor compared to
the INL.
> We threw out ideas like "restricted
> free agents" and "franchise players", etc...
KISS.
-Jeff
Dave Ahn
>Will that be like the two separate times where, in positions of
>responsibility (once as Statboy and once as INL Robot maintainer), he
>completely dropped out of sight and stopped responding to e-mails?
You failed to mention that I had been hospitalized for CTS and had my
wrists in hard cast with strict instructions not to even use a pencil
for 4 months. I'm surprised that you are preaching about my lack of
responsibility, dedication and contributions to Netrek. And amused.
That's the last thing I would have expected.
>Translation: everyone on the WNL organizing committee is a cluestacker.
>Of course that means that they'll all want to be on the same WNL team
>and they can just beat off in intra-squad scrimmages.
I have always been indifferent towards and tolerant of your often hostile
attitude because your opinions usually had some merit (even if I disagreed).
It's ironic that I even defended some of your view points during the WNLC
discussions. I will continue to do so out of principle. I also stayed
out of this INL vs WNL thread because I suspected that it would degenerate
into personal attacks (as it has turned out).
But let me give you a small clue: Netrek does not revolve around you. Your
claims about us masterminding some conspiracy against you is absurd. When
I was asked to join the WNLC, I put aside my personal differences to help
in the effort to revive Netrek. It's sad to see that we cannot have a civil
discussion about this. In the numerous messages in this thread, I have
seen ZERO constructive criticism. What a waste of bandwidth.
--
Dave Ahn | a...@vec.wfubmc.edu | Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center
When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Try to live your life
so that when you die, you will rejoice and the world will cry. -1/2 jj^2
Art Mascarinas
news:wzdsnrx...@denali.ccs.neu.edu...
> The INL is declining because the playerbase is declining. Continuous
> scoring is not going to help with that.
I think you're right. What will increase the playerbase is a new client
with gobs and gobs of eye candy, built in Battlecom , and graphics a la Star
Trek: Armada (the RTS game). The only problem is that you need a horde of
programmers and artists to make this happen. Instead of depending on the
netrek community to develop the client, why can't we pitch the game to an up
and coming game company? Just an idea, maybe somebody would be interested
in making the game.
Until then, we're going to be stuck with a client with graphics par to
Commander Keen. Haha. No offense Steve. I think you've done a wonderful job
with the Windows client.
>
> -Jeff (specter)
Bob Tanner
>
> "World Netrek League" <w...@lagparty.org> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.20.000819...@k6.crackaddict.com...
> > Announcing the World Netrek League! - http://w1.netrek.org/wnl/
>
> And you actually think this is a good idea?
It's just like a fork in an open source project. The "best" fork will survive.
--
Bob Tanner <tan...@real-time.com> | Phone : (612)943-8700
http://www.mn-linux.org | Fax : (612)943-8500
Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9
Doug Pitters
I believe that there has been a line drawn in the sand, and those who have
personal preferences against _individuals_ in each respective league will
make their decisions based on that, and not necessarily based on issues that
are already murky enough as to elude concensus.
If this were a political issue ( the politics of Netrek, oh boy ), then it
would be hard for anyone who, for example, just started playing the game and
were looking to play their first season, to construe what has been posted to
this newsgroup (which I also am unsure is the complete story) is not a
simple takeover attempt.
Was it anticipated apathy from the general netrek community that prevented
the people involved from not airing out this issue to the newsgroup and
general INL community with the prospect of a new league starting say, 2
months ago, rather than doing it right before people are expected to be
finallizing their roster submissions? If there was a great deal of calling
for Tom to resign his position and replace the council, why was this not
done in the open, where everyone could participate.
It is very difficult, if not impossible, to expect to create change from
within a system without becoming an active part of that system. Asking Tom
to step down would, at least in my mind, doom any chances of successfully
getting an endorsing response from him (and thus the INLC) because the
finality of such a request would have clouded the actual issues you want
considered. By issuing the ultimatum, we were doomed to have the WNL, and
thus doomed to splinter our playerbase.
The way to succeed in what is clearly being painted as a meta-dictatorship
is to engender the confidence of the people; getting them to believe that
what you're proposing is actually for the good of the league. For example,
if implementing continuous scoring, as opposed to something like promoting
the ideology of parity, would be good for the league, then by all means, it
should be implemented. But couldn't you have met halfway, collecting the
continuous scoring stats, judging the league in its current form against the
form that you propose and showing hard evidence that scoring would promote
better games between mismatched teams in actual INL play? Perhaps as an
INLC member, this would have succeeded. Who knows?
Next, in years as a player and several seasons as a captain, I have observed
that west-coasters can be ... late. Some teams were later than others, but
on average, west-coasters being late is a true statement.
Yet there is a difference between being late, and either being late and
being a twit about it, or being late and having to deal with a twit about
it. It is the latter scenario that I believe to be the real problem, and
yes it is a real problem, because it tends to involve championship
contenders. It is unclear whether this issue was beyond solvability, as the
egos involved are rather severe, and perhaps antipathy in the general netrek
community did nothing to assuage the concern of yet another season with
scheduling issues.
So in the end, the netrek community was not given the legitimate opportunity
to become involved in an intelligent, relevant discussion about the way the
league was run, in an attempt to avoid the now well-illustrated last resort
of forming a new league.
So what can we do now? Basically I see a few options:
a) the WNLC can do the noble thing and open up their rulebook for discussion
with respect to its use in the INLC, with everyone involved. If a consensus
cannot be reached, then they could once again reclaim the knowledge that
their best efforts to avoid breaking away were thwarted.
b) the general netrek community should discuss the issue of the INL Council,
and what its accountability to the community should be? Should anyone be
allowed on the council? Should it be a commitee of sorts where people who
are interested get nominated and elected to carry out the vision of what
netrek should evolve to?
c) Captains should step up in lieu of their apathetic teammates and speak on
their behalf. So far I've only heard the two sides. Where are all these
active players who also have an (unbiased) opinion?
d) Wait and see which league people join. Or don't join.
Bob Tanner, in another post, describes this split as "just like a fork in an
open source project. The "best" fork will survive." While it is often true
that the best fork does just that, it is also occasionally true that the
fork kills the open source project, and when that "project" has the
potential of directly impacting your life, my life, and the lives of many
people who love the game, you can't just sit back and wait for the survival
of the best fork.
You gotta step up....
-doug
Subby!
David M. Moore
>
> I believe that there has been a line drawn in the sand...
Personally, I'm waiting this one out until there's some sort of
agreement. In the meantime, we need to continue that delightful
streak of clue-pickup games.
> Why was this not done in the open, where everyone could participate.
Frankly, I can empathize with the WNL group for not rushing
the issues to Usenet. Forward progress can't compete with the
assortment of counter-productive babies here.
I can rant and name names; given very little provocation, I will.
--
David Moore
d...@groupinfo.com
Tom Holub
Dave Ahn <a...@vec.wfubmc.edu> wrote:
)do...@best.com (Tom Holub) writes:
)
)>Will that be like the two separate times where, in positions of
)>responsibility (once as Statboy and once as INL Robot maintainer), he
)>completely dropped out of sight and stopped responding to e-mails?
)
)You failed to mention that I had been hospitalized for CTS and had my
)wrists in hard cast with strict instructions not to even use a pencil
)for 4 months.
Twice?
And you know, I'm in the book. I'm sorry that you had to go
through a typing injury, but part of being responsible is, uh, being
responsible.
)But let me give you a small clue: Netrek does not revolve around you. Your
)claims about us masterminding some conspiracy against you is absurd.
Exactly what, other than "conspiracy," do you call it when a group of
people "meets" in secret to discuss plans for removing the head of
an organization?
"Masterminding", perhaps not; it was done in the most crude and
thoughtless manner imaginable.
) When
)I was asked to join the WNLC, I put aside my personal differences to help
)in the effort to revive Netrek. It's sad to see that we cannot have a civil
)discussion about this. In the numerous messages in this thread, I have
)seen ZERO constructive criticism. What a waste of bandwidth.
If you were interested in having a civil discussion, perhaps it would
have been better to begin by asking to discuss things, rather than asking
me to step down so you could do what you want. More disingenuity.
-Tom
Zachary Uram
> Until then, we're going to be stuck with a client with graphics par to
> Commander Keen. Haha. No offense Steve. I think you've done a wonderful job
> with the Windows client.
Hey who needs more than 8 colors? Commander Keen Goodbye Galaxy
was awesome :) I played all the Keen games. I also liked Cyrstal
Caves and other Apogee games such as Duke Nukem.
SDG,
Zach
Steve Sheldon
"Tom Holub" <do...@best.com> wrote in message
news:5Qwo5.3900$R87.76173@sjc-read...
> In article <8nu4ls$3eh$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
> Kevin M Bernatz <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote:
> )
> )the majority of people would oppose such a change since everyone likes
> )to play with people they know.
>
> Translation: everyone on the WNL organizing committee is a cluestacker.
> Of course that means that they'll all want to be on the same WNL team
> and they can just beat off in intra-squad scrimmages.
Hmm, isn't everybody on that list except Ahn on the same INL Team? :)
Steve Sheldon
"Art Mascarinas" <amas...@cisco.com> wrote in message
news:966970351.226255@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
> Until then, we're going to be stuck with a client with graphics par to
> Commander Keen. Haha. No offense Steve. I think you've done a wonderful
job
> with the Windows client.
No offense taken. I was trying to add some colour to the client without
putting in a whole lot of work. :)
Kevin M Bernatz
>Doug Pitters <ima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Was it anticipated apathy from the general netrek community that prevented
>the people involved from not airing out this issue to the newsgroup and
>general INL community with the prospect of a new league starting say, 2
Sorry, that would have accomplished very little if past evidence
is any indication. I believe Jitesh raised some of the very issues we
wanted to address and was either completely ignored or insulted by the
anti-Jitesh crowd. The latter I could careless about *if* the INLC wasn't
one of them...since he did have very good points, if I remember.
It is also the case of 'too many chefs'...as it was, we decided
on 5 because it allowed most things to get decided on quickly and it
would hopefully result in few ties (since the WNL is decided by majority
vote). As it was, several issues took 2+ weeks to decide! Can you imagine
how long it would have taken if we were debating/voting on rgn? Yes, in
an "ideal" world it would have been best to include everyone's input. The
best compromise we could do was to do our best to listen to your complaints
during clue/league games and to listen to your suggestions on alternative
scoring systems. Continuous scoring *barely* passed in our voting (3-2, I'm
pretty sure).
>It is very difficult, if not impossible, to expect to create change from
>within a system without becoming an active part of that system. Asking Tom
The problem is as I cited before. Creating change from *within*
the system was even MORE difficult and quite likely impossible IN OUR
OPINION. Maybe some people don't agree with this, but this is how we felt
and still feel.
>considered. By issuing the ultimatum, we were doomed to have the WNL, and
>thus doomed to splinter our playerbase.
Perhaps, but we still had to ask.
>The way to succeed in what is clearly being painted as a meta-dictatorship
>is to engender the confidence of the people; getting them to believe that
>what you're proposing is actually for the good of the league. For example,
Based on the past couple INL seasons, how could ANY change be bad?
League netrek is dying. If nothing is done, it will be dead anyways. We
don't want that. We think the changes we are proposing will be a step in
the right direction. We do not claim it to be the Godsend to league
netrek, but we certainly think it's better than what is out there.
>Yet there is a difference between being late, and either being late and
>being a twit about it, or being late and having to deal with a twit about
>it. It is the latter scenario that I believe to be the real problem, and
>yes it is a real problem, because it tends to involve championship
>contenders. It is unclear whether this issue was beyond solvability, as the
>egos involved are rather severe, and perhaps antipathy in the general netrek
Which is why you need a very well defined system of rules to deal
with these issues. Not just one ego-maniac versus another. The INL does
not have this. The WNL does.
>So in the end, the netrek community was not given the legitimate opportunity
>to become involved in an intelligent, relevant discussion about the way the
>league was run, in an attempt to avoid the now well-illustrated last resort
>of forming a new league.
Unfortunately more true than not, but I've given my reasons above.
We honestly feel there really was no other way to handle it. The WNL is
set-up to handle rule changes and modifications. Everything can be self-
correcting if people WANT it that way. No one person has complete
authority to decide what can or can't be allowed in future seasons. I
fail to see how the INL can even compete against the WNL on this basis
alone.
>a) the WNLC can do the noble thing and open up their rulebook for discussion
>with respect to its use in the INLC, with everyone involved. If a consensus
>cannot be reached, then they could once again reclaim the knowledge that
>their best efforts to avoid breaking away were thwarted.
Sorry, but this would be sacrificing the integrity of everything
that we worked on. There is no reason to cling to the remnants of a dying
league when there is something that is clearly superior and, most
importantly, clearly receptive to the opinions of the players. Yes, we're
requring that you work within the framwork of the rules. But at least
you KNOW what those frameworks are. And why does Tom care so much if
someone else runs the netrek league? He should be happy that he won't
have to deal with scheduling issues, complaints from us "weenies" and
all the hassles associated with running the league. We already tried to
modify the rules to address concerns that we were "anti-GB", which is
completely unfounded (but he has repeatedly turned this into a 'Jitesh
bashing' and 'anti-GB'/'anti-Mojo' crusade). Trust us, attempting to
"get you" is the last of our concerns.
>b) the general netrek community should discuss the issue of the INL Council,
>and what its accountability to the community should be? Should anyone be
>allowed on the council? Should it be a commitee of sorts where people who
>are interested get nominated and elected to carry out the vision of what
>netrek should evolve to?
Come on Doug...that's great on paper, but completely unrealistic.
As it stands, even having a WNLC of 5 organizers + 6-8 captains are going
to give you around 10-12 WNLC members (assuming some overlap). That's
10-12 votes/opinions that one needs to hear and even that may be a bit
cumbersome. Debating with the whole netrek community...no, thank you..but
I'd rather have them voice issues through their respective captains.
>c) Captains should step up in lieu of their apathetic teammates and speak on
>their behalf. So far I've only heard the two sides. Where are all these
>active players who also have an (unbiased) opinion?
>
>d) Wait and see which league people join. Or don't join.
Join us! Join us! (*shameless promotion*)
>people who love the game, you can't just sit back and wait for the survival
>of the best fork.
We knew it wasn't going to be easy to convince people to leave
something they are used to. It never is. But nothing lasts forever and
change is always accompanied by 'troubled waters'. Give the WNL a chance.
Really, what is there to lose playing in the WNL for one season? If Tom
refuses to captain the GBs in the WNL, I hope Fuzzy, Duck or someone else
will step up. Don't judge the league based on one person on the committee.
Given 10 votes, a single voice is meaningless without support.
Several of the organizers have experience running DL leagues. All
the organizers have extensive INL and general netrek experience, as well
as ALL the organizers having captained league teams (with 3 of the 5 having
captained 4+ teams). We have the background and knowledge that the changes
we've made weren't just done "on a whim". And if the are absolutely wrong,
then the league is designed to make it very easy to KNOW how to make
proposed changes.
-K
WNL organizer
Kevin M Bernatz
>Steve Sheldon <ssheldon...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>Hmm, isn't everybody on that list except Ahn on the same INL Team? :)
Hee..no, Karth has never been on a team with Jitesh that I know
of. And Dave and I jumped ship (again) for the upcoming WNL season.
-K
John Morgan Salomon
It has toys, a full-color client, lots of moving bits, and (as it did when
it was still around) serves as a perfect breeding/bleeding ground for new
players who'll eventually move to regular netrek.
-John
Fuzzy Paradise
In article <966970351.226255@sj-nntpcache-3>,
Art Mascarinas <amas...@cisco.com> wrote:
>"Jeffrey Nowakowski" <jef...@denali.ccs.neu.edu> wrote in message
>news:wzdsnrx...@denali.ccs.neu.edu...
>
>> The INL is declining because the playerbase is declining. Continuous
>> scoring is not going to help with that.
>
>I think you're right. What will increase the playerbase is a new client
>with gobs and gobs of eye candy, built in Battlecom , and graphics a la Star
>Trek: Armada (the RTS game). The only problem is that you need a horde of
>programmers and artists to make this happen. Instead of depending on the
>netrek community to develop the client, why can't we pitch the game to an up
>and coming game company? Just an idea, maybe somebody would be interested
>in making the game.
>
>Until then, we're going to be stuck with a client with graphics par to
>Commander Keen. Haha. No offense Steve. I think you've done a wonderful job
>with the Windows client.
>
>>
>> -Jeff (specter)
John Morgan Salomon
I encourage others to do the same, in the interests of getting our shit
together, if that is indeed what needs to be done.
Competition is healthy, but I think the way it's being done is pretty lame.
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
In article <b%Bo5.241$tM2....@news.goodnet.com>,
Doug Pitters <ima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>I believe that there has been a line drawn in the sand, and those who have
<stuff>
>-doug
>
>Subby!
John Morgan Salomon
Goddamm whippersnappers! When I was your age I had to walk 8 miles to school
in the snow barefoot uphill! Both ways! Commie Demmycrats want to ruin this
country. Damn television conspiracy! It's all Sheldon's fault!
And I can name names too! Rupert! William! Aloisious! Bob!
Argh!
-John
Fuzzy Grumpy Old Man
In article <39A2C9EF...@groupinfo.com>,
David M. Moore <d...@groupinfo.com> wrote:
>I can rant and name names; given very little provocation, I will.
>
>--
>David Moore
>d...@groupinfo.com
Dave Ahn
>And you know, I'm in the book. I'm sorry that you had to go
>through a typing injury, but part of being responsible is, uh, being
>responsible.
Excuse me for prioritizing my health over a game. You are extremely
self-important to think that anybody would go out of their way to phone
you up from a hospital to give you status reports on some INL game stats.
I was in the phone book. Why didn't you call me up yourself and ask me
why I had disappeared? Instead, you just jump to conclusions that suit
your tastes. Clearly you do not understand the concept of extenuating
circumstances. Get real.
>)But let me give you a small clue: Netrek does not revolve around you. Your
>)claims about us masterminding some conspiracy against you is absurd.
>Exactly what, other than "conspiracy," do you call it when a group of
>people "meets" in secret to discuss plans for removing the head of
>an organization?
>"Masterminding", perhaps not; it was done in the most crude and
>thoughtless manner imaginable.
You elevate yourself too much. We discussed amongst ourselves ways to
improve league play. Once we had hashed out our ideas, we contacted you
to solicit your response. I personally thought that some of the wording
in the email was too brash, but I figured that you'd recognize that many
of the suggestions had merit. I was right: you changed the format of the
INL to incorporate some of our suggestions. Yet you continue to make
personal attacks and make no constructive arguments. You are too blinded
by your hatred to think straight. That's too bad.
>If you were interested in having a civil discussion, perhaps it would
>have been better to begin by asking to discuss things, rather than asking
>me to step down so you could do what you want. More disingenuity.
Ok, Tom. We could have worded our emails in a more polite manner. You
could have done the same. Let's discuss why the rule and format changes
proposed by us are without merit. Why don't you politely list off the
problems you have with them?
Kevin M Bernatz
>Niclas Fredriksson <nic...@acc.umu.se> wrote:
>
>It kinda sucks that the WNL will use the stupid continuous scoring mode
>though. Other than that it all seems great.
[NOT speaking for WNLC]
I was thinking about this this morning...what if we considered
the following change to continuous scoring.
****
Continuous scoring applies during regulation time, either with or
without a weighing factor. This is the same as it is set-up now. The
differnce is the way OT is handled (something we were reluctant to touch,
but hear me out).
Case 1: Continuous score is within 2.0 of each other.
The game goes to OT if the team with the higher continuous score has less
than "11-8-1" planet count. Ie., exactly like regular non-continuous scoring
condition for OT for the team with the higher continuous score.
Case 2: Continuous score is within 2.0 of each other.
The game goes to OT if the team with the LOWER continuous score has better
than an 8-11-1 planet count (ie. the analagous case to Case 1). But NOTE
that the team with the lower continuous score cannot WIN outright based on
planet count, rather they can only force the game to go to OT.
Case 3: Continuous score not within 2.0 of each other.
The game goes to OT if the team with the LOWER continuous score has better
than an 8-11-1 planet count (ie. as above). Again, the team with the lower
continuous score cannot WIN outright based on planet count, but they CAN
force the game to go to OT.
OT: Still sudden death, but based on getting to 1.5 planets ABOVE the planet
count going into OT (NOT 'score'!) or an absolute mark of 14-6 (front line
plus one other). E.g. If a team is being beaten on continuous score, but
manage to make a last minute push to get the planet count to 9-11 at the
end of regulation, the game will go to sudden death OT where the winning
condition for the team with 9 planets is 10-9-1 and the winning condition for
the team with 11 planets is 12-7-1.
OT2: Still sudden death, but reset the galaxy to 10:10 planets with all
planets at 4 (except for the HW...allowing teams that had a base with armies
at the end to still get those armies). Then play with normal 11-8-1 victory
condition.
Advantage:
This allows teams that are weaker to always have a chance to force
OT, regardless of the continuous score. The continuous score *is* used for
ranking purposes, so teams are still encouraged to go after continuous
score rather than just sitting and pushing for a last minute win. ONLY the
team with the higher continuous score has a chance for an outright win in
regulation, making games against even strength teams that much more intense
as the two teams battle each other for that chance to make a last minute
regulation 'push'. Opinions?
-K
Tom Holub
)>through a typing injury, but part of being responsible is, uh, being
)>responsible.
)
)Excuse me for prioritizing my health over a game. You are extremely
)self-important to think that anybody would go out of their way to phone
)you up from a hospital to give you status reports on some INL game stats.
If I were incapacitated for some reason, I would contact someone and
let them know so they could do something about it. That's the difference
between being responsible and not.
)You elevate yourself too much. We discussed amongst ourselves ways to
)improve league play. Once we had hashed out our ideas, we contacted you
)to solicit your response.
I don't know why I need to keep correcting this. You contacted me to
get me out of the way; you weren't interested in my response.
)>If you were interested in having a civil discussion, perhaps it would
)>have been better to begin by asking to discuss things, rather than asking
)>me to step down so you could do what you want. More disingenuity.
)
)Ok, Tom. We could have worded our emails in a more polite manner. You
)could have done the same. Let's discuss why the rule and format changes
)proposed by us are without merit. Why don't you politely list off the
)problems you have with them?
The two fundamental problems are that continuous scoring sucks as a
way to decide the winner of a game, and early game times combined with
forced forfeits screws west coast teams, such as mine. I think I've
made my position on those perfectly clear.
-Tom
Tom Holub
That's an absurd statement; clearly fragmenting the league into two leagues
of 4 teams each is bad, and that's exactly what you're doing.
League netrek is having problems due to the shrinking playerbase, and
for no other reason.
-Tom
Kevin M Bernatz
>
>League netrek is having problems due to the shrinking playerbase, and
>for no other reason.
> -Tom
Then answer the simple question of who won the INL championship
last season?
-K
Dave Ahn
>If I were incapacitated for some reason, I would contact someone and
>let them know so they could do something about it. That's the difference
>between being responsible and not.
Yeah, I did. It just so happens that INL game stats didn't make the top
500 list of important things that needed to be handled on my behalf. That
is called prioritizing. You have no grounds to make such hypocritical
accusations about irresponsibility when you yourself have a long history
of ignoring emails and lapsing in your duties for months at a time. At
least I recognize that you have RL obligations that take priority over
netrek. Or at least I think you do.
I'm tired of these silly attacks. Let's just drop the subject.
>The two fundamental problems are that continuous scoring sucks as a
>way to decide the winner of a game, and early game times combined with
>forced forfeits screws west coast teams, such as mine. I think I've
>made my position on those perfectly clear.
Though I designed the continuous scoring system, I have always been upfront
about its potential weaknesses. You and Niclas seem the be the most vocal
opponents of the system, but I find it unreasonable that you are not willing
to give the system a fair shot in league play and/or suggest ways of
improving it (short of not using it). There are lot of other veteran clues
who like continuous scoring. You yourself said that it would serve well
as a tie-breaker for the INL. Maybe the system will turn out to be
unsalvageably useless. But I'd like to see it in practice beyond a few
disorganized pickup clue games. Furthermore, continuous scoring is not
a fundamental part of the WNL. We can remove it via a voting process if
there is enough opposition.
Regarding the game times, I think your complaint is valid. But you should
accept it as truth that the goal was not to "screw west coast teams" as
you claim. I actually suggested a 10-10:30PM EST starting time for one
of the days to accomodate west coasters, but that slot was out-voted.
Maybe we can revisit the scheduling issue. As for the forfeits, it hurts
east coasters as much as the west coasters. I have rarely been in any
game that actually started within 15 minutes of the announced time. If
the forfeit rule is proven to be unreasonable, we can change it via a
voting process.
Any other complaints?
Yomyung Leem
WNL won't be any successful than INL because WNL didn't corperate the
fundamental changes that needs to be made to accomodate declining of the
netrek player database. These are,
1. There STILL is NO place for newbies. I recall my memory when I was a
newbie trying to play in INL, could not find a team/nobody wanted me/ or
could not make a team. This will NOT be resolved by having a new league.
2. Even if there are some teams for semi clues, newbies, they will drop out.
I noticed this from my newbie team. Why would they want to stick around and
play when you know you'll lose for sure/get genoed.
3. WNL is just a cosmetic change of INL, replacing the committe members, but
nothing more or less. This would be a good thing to try if we had a player
pool of 5 ~ 7 years ago when there were enough clued players.
In my conclusion, WNL will have 3 or 4, maybe 5 teams at most with no or one
newbie team. so what the heck is the real point of having WNL? If you are
really trying to get netrek revived, think yourself as a newbie/semi-clue and
rethink. That might be why DL's been so successful while INL was dying out.
LEEMY
Pieter de Wildt
Dave Ahn wrote:
>
*snip*
>
> Regarding the game times, I think your complaint is valid. But you should
> accept it as truth that the goal was not to "screw west coast teams" as
> you claim. I actually suggested a 10-10:30PM EST starting time for one
> of the days to accomodate west coasters, but that slot was out-voted.
> Maybe we can revisit the scheduling issue.
>
10:00 PM = 04:00 AM for most of us, 03:00 for the UK guys.
(any of them playing INL/WNL ?)
Bye
Pieter
Kevin M Bernatz
>Pieter de Wildt <p.m.de...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>
>Please thing about the european players !
>10:00 PM = 04:00 AM for most of us, 03:00 for the UK guys.
>(any of them playing INL/WNL ?)
We have (and they do play in league games). The WNL has Sunday,
3:30 PM EST (9:30 PM for you guys) as a set playing time. Teams can
specify if they need to play on a certain day/time and we'll do our best
to accomodate them. ET has historically ALWAYS played on weekends and
I suspect will continue to do so.
-K
Kevin M Bernatz
>Yomyung Leem <le...@lucent.com> wrote:
>Here are some of my input.
>
>WNL won't be any successful than INL because WNL didn't corperate the
>fundamental changes that needs to be made to accomodate declining of the
>netrek player database. These are,
>
>1. There STILL is NO place for newbies. I recall my memory when I was a
>newbie trying to play in INL, could not find a team/nobody wanted me/ or
>could not make a team. This will NOT be resolved by having a new league.
Yeah, this is a very tough issue to fix :(.
>2. Even if there are some teams for semi clues, newbies, they will drop out.
>I noticed this from my newbie team. Why would they want to stick around and
>play when you know you'll lose for sure/get genoed.
We tried to address this issue by introducing swiss style ranking.
So that the weaker teams can still "win" even if they lose the game. It
would mean the very weak teams would actually play to lose 'respectfully'
rather than playing to try to win (which they realistically would have no
chance of if we're talking true Rookie versus Cluestack games). This is
not necessarily a bad thing since it teaches teamwork for both sides and
hopefully teaches positioning and 'decision making' to the newbie team.
In the old system, Rookie teams HAD to play to win the game or
it was basically meaningless for them. NOTE: that this does not apply
to mediocre teams versus Cluestack teams since mediocre teams will have
more points risked on a game than newbie teams...so they'll have to try
to perform better inorder to "win".
>3. WNL is just a cosmetic change of INL, replacing the committe members, but
>nothing more or less. This would be a good thing to try if we had a player
>pool of 5 ~ 7 years ago when there were enough clued players.
Sorry, there are alot of differences between the INL and WNL.
Much more than "just replacing the committee members."
>In my conclusion, WNL will have 3 or 4, maybe 5 teams at most with no or one
>newbie team. so what the heck is the real point of having WNL? If you are
>really trying to get netrek revived, think yourself as a newbie/semi-clue and
>rethink. That might be why DL's been so successful while INL was dying out.
We thought of making the WNL a draft based league, but honestly felt
that (a) people would not take it serious as a replacement for the INL and
(b) many people don't like a 'draft' based league. Perhaps it *is* what
people want? Again, this is something that CAN be changed in the WNL if
the WNLC votes on it and a majority of people want it. Our goal is NOT to
have the WNL replace the DL.
-K
Steve Sheldon
"John Morgan Salomon" <jo...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:8o00t9$4kj$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
David M. Moore
>
> Careful... John... Don't want to provoke David. :)
>
I laughed at John's "grumpy man". That was funny.
Unlike a certain other "obvious-next-thought" poster
who wouldn't know constructive or creative content
if it wrote itself.
> "John Morgan Salomon" <jo...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
> news:8o00t9$4kj$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> > Me too!
> >
> > Goddamm whippersnappers! When I was your age I had to walk
> > 8 miles to school in the snow barefoot uphill! Both ways!
> > Commie Demmycrats want to ruin this country. Damn television
> > conspiracy!
--
David Moore
d...@groupinfo.com
Zachary Uram
playing on bronco as a result of migration. We need another
Cassius server! Who will pick up the gauntlet? Anyone have info
on status of new paradise server? I've talked to a number of ppl
who miss paradise so why isn't anyone running paradise server? I
was never sure why it died out around '96.
> --
> This is an official Press Release of Z.O.G. Laboratories International
> Department of Propaganda
> ZOGNET: zog.net, zog.ch
>
>
Zachary Uram
cinemadom. And he delivers them in his own inimitable style :)
"Soylent Green is made of PEOPLE!"
"Get your filthy paws off me you damn dirty apes!"
ROFL!
On 23 Aug 2000, John Morgan Salomon wrote:
> Me too!
>
> Goddamm whippersnappers! When I was your age I had to walk 8 miles to school
> in the snow barefoot uphill! Both ways! Commie Demmycrats want to ruin this
> country. Damn television conspiracy! It's all Sheldon's fault!
>
> And I can name names too! Rupert! William! Aloisious! Bob!
>
> Argh!
>
> -John
> Fuzzy Grumpy Old Man
>
> In article <39A2C9EF...@groupinfo.com>,
> David M. Moore <d...@groupinfo.com> wrote:
>
> >I can rant and name names; given very little provocation, I will.
> >
> >--
> >David Moore
> >d...@groupinfo.com
>
>
Steve Sheldon
"David M. Moore" <d...@groupinfo.com> wrote in message
news:39A413AE...@groupinfo.com...
> Steve Sheldon wrote:
> >
> > Careful... John... Don't want to provoke David. :)
> >
>
> I laughed at John's "grumpy man". That was funny.
>
> Unlike a certain other "obvious-next-thought" poster
> who wouldn't know constructive or creative content
> if it wrote itself.
Oh no! I'm not provoking you, am I?
Bucket O'Bitz
Kevin M Bernatz wrote:
>
> >In article <b%Bo5.241$tM2....@news.goodnet.com>,
> >Doug Pitters <ima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >Was it anticipated apathy from the general netrek community that prevented
> >the people involved from not airing out this issue to the newsgroup and
> >general INL community with the prospect of a new league starting say, 2
>
> Sorry, that would have accomplished very little if past evidence
> is any indication. I believe Jitesh raised some of the very issues we
> wanted to address and was either completely ignored or insulted by the
> anti-Jitesh crowd. The latter I could careless about *if* the INLC wasn't
> one of them...since he did have very good points, if I remember.
>
Kevin:
Jittesh is an awesome netrek player for sure. His hours indicate Netrek
is all he has done for his entire life, either he gave his fugitive to
many people or, he, himself used the fugitive to personally use every
swearing insult under the sun to humiliate indiscriminately all ships on
the opposing team. I thought he stopped this tactic, but in the last
draft league some players told me they hated to be on his team because
they can do nothing right and hated his delivery of telling them so.
Netrek is not the Military conscription required of a country, netrek is
stumbled over on the internet and looked into for fun factor. FUN FUN
FUN
You think high level LEAUGE play is fun... If you don't find a way to
make simple netrek fun there will be no more recruits to high level
netrek.
When newbie came along, I had to laugh when Niclas told me my 3.0 stats
on newbie was a disgrace. I was there to help players!
You all who are so deep into the 3rd level of master tactics are simply
forgetting how to train people into the first level in your greed to get
competition, and killing your own art in the process.
I think you WNL guys should talk to INL guy and you all guys come up
with somehting cool.
In the meantime, anyone at all who looks into this is thinking these
guys can't see, let me assure you this: Anyone who can find netrek of
any version and figure out how to set it up is light years ahead of your
average "online" users these days. They deserve some respect.
-David
Tom Holub
)>way to decide the winner of a game, and early game times combined with
)>forced forfeits screws west coast teams, such as mine. I think I've
)>made my position on those perfectly clear.
)
)Though I designed the continuous scoring system, I have always been upfront
)about its potential weaknesses. You and Niclas seem the be the most vocal
)opponents of the system, but I find it unreasonable that you are not willing
)to give the system a fair shot in league play and/or suggest ways of
)improving it (short of not using it).
I think it's fundamentally flawed. It measures "who was ahead the most"
in a game, which is simply not interesting in terms of deciding the
winner. It would be like deciding football games based on yardage
gained.
) There are lot of other veteran clues
)who like continuous scoring. You yourself said that it would serve well
)as a tie-breaker for the INL.
Sure, since when you're doing a tie-breaker, "who was ahead the most"
becomes an interesting piece of data.
)Regarding the game times, I think your complaint is valid. But you should
)accept it as truth that the goal was not to "screw west coast teams" as
)you claim.
I won't accept it as truth, because two of the members of your cabal
are two people who just refuse to shut the fuck up about GB start times.
)Maybe we can revisit the scheduling issue. As for the forfeits, it hurts
)east coasters as much as the west coasters.
No, because east costers need to get to the game by NINE PM, while west
coasters need to get to the game by SIX PM. Which do you think is
easier?
-Tom
Tom Holub
)So that the weaker teams can still "win" even if they lose the game. It
)would mean the very weak teams would actually play to lose 'respectfully'
)rather than playing to try to win (which they realistically would have no
)chance of if we're talking true Rookie versus Cluestack games).
So you're encouraging stashing on the homeworld and playing to lose
15-5. How fun.
A swiss won't work with 4 teams, it's a ridiculous idea.
-Tom
David M. Moore
>
> "David M. Moore" wrote:
> > Unlike a certain other "obvious-next-thought" poster
> > who wouldn't know constructive or creative content
> > if it wrote itself.
>
> Oh no! I'm not provoking you, am I?
Indeed, I was referring to you. However, I wouldn't say that
I have been "provoked". I simply expect your usual no-brainer
reply to every thread (including the spams). After digesting
someone's insightful commentary or interesting proposal,
your inevitable followup post is like a terd that naturally
occurs afterward.
--
David Moore
d...@groupinfo.com
Kevin M Bernatz
I said "swiss-style", not a pure swiss. Read the rulebook if
you're going to argue semantics with me instead of anything logical.
And yes, I *am* encouaging completely outmatched Rookie teams to
stash on the HW and play to lose 15-5 AGAINST TOP TIER TEAMS. If they
are forced to play to win outright, they will get geno'd in <30 minutes
as is the norm in INL play. At least we're giving them a choice on
strategies that can ACTUALLY WIN points for them, rather than just
discourage them because their team is outmatched.
If a non-Rookie team tried to do this, they would lose points and
it would therefor not be a viable strategy. I fail to see how this is
a negative thing? We're giving them an option of playing differently
depending on the relative strength of the team they are facing. Even in
professional sports, teams who are clearly outmatched "play to not be
embarassed"..and with 5 minutes left in the game, if they have a chance to
win, then great. As the rules for continuous scoring stand now, the latter
is not possible. But I think my previous post on the subject may actually
be a nice addition to the continuous scoring rules.
-K
Kevin M Bernatz
>
>I won't accept it as truth, because two of the members of your cabal
>are two people who just refuse to shut the fuck up about GB start times.
blah, blah, blah... At least you worded it correctly and didn't
say "West Coasters start times."
>)Maybe we can revisit the scheduling issue. As for the forfeits, it hurts
>)east coasters as much as the west coasters.
>
>No, because east costers need to get to the game by NINE PM, while west
>coasters need to get to the game by SIX PM. Which do you think is
>easier?
Technically, you're correct...but judging from past experience, ALL
teams have had problems getting people to games "on time". Not just GB, not
just West Coast Teams. In my experience, GB has been the most "memorable"
so that is why I "refuse to shut the fuck up about [it]."
So let's assume that we aren't going to reach a nice agreement on
this issue, so what are our options?
1) The WNL is set-up so that we can vote on 'changing' the start times
for either all or some of the days.
2) Say 1 week before the end of the Team Registration period, we can vote
on issues like continuous scoring and game time/game lengths. This gives
the most time for all captains to be able to register, and hence vote.
3) The issue is "How early is too early for West Coasters" and "How late
is too late for East Co
You say 10:00 PM EST/7:00 PM PST is the earliest that West
Coasters can make games.
I say that midnight EST / 9:00 PM PST is the latest that East
Coasters can stay at games. And even that is really pushing it...11:00 PM
EST is prob. a more reasonable time.
4) A compromise is to start games at 10:00 PM EST/7:00 PM PST and make the
game length 60 minutes. Given that the game prob. won't start until 10:15
and may go another 15 minutes of OT, that puts the game ending time at 11:30
PM EST. Not great, but acceptable. By the same token, starting at 7:15 PM
PST at the latest is not great for West Coasters, but is it acceptable?
You can't have it work both ways and in the past, it was always the
East Coasters who got screwed when games started 30, 40, 45 minutes after
their scheduled start times. I don't have a problem starting relatively
late, but I *do* have a problem starting relatively late AND then being
further delayed because the other team hasn't showed yet.
-K
Yomyung Leem
> you're going to argue semantics with me instead of anything logical.
> And yes, I *am* encouaging completely outmatched Rookie teams to
> stash on the HW and play to lose 15-5 AGAINST TOP TIER TEAMS. If they
This is pretty sad. What are you exactly trying to accomplish here? Try to show
off clue-stacked teams to newbies teams? Try to teach them how to be core heros?
Like I told you, think from a point of rookie's view. I will be so happy not to
lose a game, and actually won the game because we didn't get genoed. I am so
excited!!. If you cannot resolve the fundamental problems that I pointed out from
my last post, WNL is nothing but a name change of INL.
Yung
Art Mascarinas
news:39A4E857...@home.com...
>
> Kevin:
>
> Jittesh is an awesome netrek player for sure. His hours indicate Netrek
> is all he has done for his entire life, either he gave his fugitive to
> many people or, he, himself used the fugitive to personally use every
> swearing insult under the sun to humiliate indiscriminately all ships on
> the opposing team. I thought he stopped this tactic, but in the last
> draft league some players told me they hated to be on his team because
> they can do nothing right and hated his delivery of telling them so.
Jitesh has mellowed out these last few years. You just seem to piss him off
with your twink play. :)
For me, having my teammates not getting in between the enemy and myself when
I'm taking the planet is not fun. Ok, so his delivery is not tactful,
however... He knows what he's talking about. If you need to be consoled
and have your back rubbed when you make a mistake...well, maybe netrek isn't
for you. You should be watching the World Little League championships,
instead. The thing is, we have too many sensitive people who can't take
criticism on their gameplay. Hey even I make mistakes ;) (they are far and
few inbetween though, hehe).
> Netrek is not the Military conscription required of a country, netrek is
> stumbled over on the internet and looked into for fun factor. FUN FUN
> FUN
I agree. However, it become frustrating when nobody listens. I usually get
told to go to hell when I say something. I use tact too. I'm much nicer
than Jitesh ;).
> You think high level LEAUGE play is fun... If you don't find a way to
> make simple netrek fun there will be no more recruits to high level
> netrek.
You know what? I played on a lot of losing teams, but we got better. I
mean we *SUCKED*, got our ass beat, but we learned a lot, and had fun in
the process. Figuring out why the other team beat you is half of the fun.
The first time I ever heard of space control I was flattened. It was an
awesome concept. You have to remember that long ago, ogging was "sexy".
I've seen this game change from an aggressive to a passive one. It's
amazing. The "Cluestack" Jitesh captains are a group of close knit friends
who took their lumps together, persevered, and won together. When we added
Martin Palenik, Lalit Motwani, Narin, and Kevin Wong... We knew we were
unbeatable. It's a good feeling to message a take, fake a planet, and have
your buddies uncloak out of nowhere setting a monster pick for you at the
target planet. That totally rewls. Everybody loves playing together. It
shows, the championships keep rolling in. Call us what you will, it gives
us something to talk about when we're all sitting around drinking beer.
> You all who are so deep into the 3rd level of master tactics are simply
> forgetting how to train people into the first level in your greed to get
> competition, and killing your own art in the process.
Nobody trained me. I just got yelled at a lot. :) Anybody remember Xor?
Haha, man he used to always yell at me (who didn't he yell at?). I think I
was fortunate to have Crunchy Frog and Death 8P calling me a twink all the
time as well. If you are more worried about your feelings than the pure and
simple fact that you made a mistake...too bad...maybe watching Survivor is
better use of your time. I can sum up this game in a few words Position,
Communication, Experience, and Teamwork...that wins games. Having the
worlds greatest dogfighter isn't going to do jack. (It doesn't hurt to have
them on your team though, Hi Martin and Tom F.!) Want to know something
else? when we play, we set our egos aside. Well...except for the times when
Niclas plays 8).
> In the meantime, anyone at all who looks into this is thinking these
> guys can't see, let me assure you this: Anyone who can find netrek of
> any version and figure out how to set it up is light years ahead of your
> average "online" users these days. They deserve some respect.
Online saavy and Netrek play are mutually exclusive. Besides, I think
respect is something you earn.
> -David
Art - Semi-Retired...but still loves the game.
Too many different names to list...
Zachary Uram
> If a non-Rookie team tried to do this, they would lose points and
> it would therefor not be a viable strategy. I fail to see how this is
> a negative thing? We're giving them an option of playing differently
> depending on the relative strength of the team they are facing. Even in
> professional sports, teams who are clearly outmatched "play to not be
> embarassed"..and with 5 minutes left in the game, if they have a chance to
> win, then great. As the rules for continuous scoring stand now, the latter
> is not possible. But I think my previous post on the subject may actually
> be a nice addition to the continuous scoring rules.
I have only played in a few continuous scoring games so I'm no
expert but I think there is more excitement when even though the
other team is down by many points they still mathematically have
chance to come back in last 5 mins and win. It has happened in
football and it's very exciting to watch when it does happen. I
also see Kevin's point regarding helping unmatched teams.
SDG,
Zach
Steve Sheldon
Oh my. I provoked David! My God, what have I Done!?
I can't recall any time where I actually read one of your posts and though
"Wow, what incredible insight!", much less "Oh that was worth my time
reading."
Maybe if you were actually a worthwhile contributor I'd feel insulted, but
unfortunately you just sound like a whiner.
So next time you feel like being provoked, go ahead and name names.
Actually come to think of it... even if you were a worthwhile contributor I
wouldn't feel insulted by your critique. Hasn't happened yet in 7 years of
me posting to the group. :)
Steve Sheldon
"Tom Holub" <do...@best.com> wrote in message
news:g8ap5.4195$R87.85429@sjc-read...
>
> I think it's fundamentally flawed. It measures "who was ahead the most"
> in a game, which is simply not interesting in terms of deciding the
> winner. It would be like deciding football games based on yardage
> gained.
I thought Netrek was like basketball? That's the analogy you usually use.
Isn't Basketball scored by who has the most points?
Steve Sheldon
"Kevin M Bernatz" <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote in message
news:8o3f4l$gtf$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu...
>
> Technically, you're correct...but judging from past experience, ALL
> teams have had problems getting people to games "on time". Not just GB,
not
> just West Coast Teams. In my experience, GB has been the most "memorable"
> so that is why I "refuse to shut the fuck up about [it]."
> So let's assume that we aren't going to reach a nice agreement on
> this issue, so what are our options?
That's not fair. Just because most GB players can't wake up before noon on
a Sunday is no reason to single them out! :)
Steve Sheldon
"Yomyung Leem" <le...@lucent.com> wrote in message
news:39A548D9...@lucent.com...
I think Kevin is saying that is what they are trying to do.
Tom Holub
Steve Sheldon <ssheldon...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
)
)"Tom Holub" <do...@best.com> wrote in message
)news:g8ap5.4195$R87.85429@sjc-read...
)>
)> I think it's fundamentally flawed. It measures "who was ahead the most"
)> in a game, which is simply not interesting in terms of deciding the
)> winner. It would be like deciding football games based on yardage
)> gained.
)
)I thought Netrek was like basketball? That's the analogy you usually use.
)
)Isn't Basketball scored by who has the most points?
"Continuous scoring" gives an advantage to being ahead greater than the
point differential, that is, the longer you are ahead, the further you
get ahead. In essence you get more points just for being ahead, which
is absolutely not the case in basketball, or for that matter in any
sport I can think of.
-Tom
Bucket O'Bitz
Art Mascarinas wrote:
>
> "Bucket O'Bitz" <lon...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:39A4E857...@home.com...
> >
> Art - Semi-Retired...but still loves the game.
> Too many different names to list...
Art,
Cool Reply.
These poeple only want serious players. They go to pickup and chase
people off. They want only the best of the best to play netrek with.
They forgot what it takes to make a training ground... etc.
Jittesh has reason to not like me. I told him he is exactly like I was,
a total asshole in a game that means absolutely nothing to real life.
Thus... play a game for fun and let poeple live their own lives.
I repsect Jitesh, all of us have seen him grow up. Arguably, he has
become the best Netrek player of his time. And argue you will.... but
just watching him [BASE] must be the same as watching the [fill in the
blank] name of whoever was the greatest in 1992.
I have seen a few oldbies come back and say the game has changed so much
in that everyone dets now and phasers... all games evolve and devolve.
We all have our 15 minutes of glory somewhere...
The bottom line is RECRUITING new players. Jittesh has failed here, and
hurt netrek. End.
-David
John Morgan Salomon
Steve Sheldon <ssheldon...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>I thought Netrek was like basketball? That's the analogy you usually use.
>
>Isn't Basketball scored by who has the most points?
Yeah, but not by who has the most ball possession by seconds.
-John
Fuzzy I Play Jai-Alai
John Morgan Salomon
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall
fear no evil. For I am the evilest motherfucker in the valley."
I'll provoke him then I'll provoke his mom and and and.
-John
Fuzzy He Don't Know Me Vewy Weww, Do He
In article <8o1gsv$18ve$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>,
Steve Sheldon <ssheldon...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>Careful... John... Don't want to provoke David. :)
John Morgan Salomon
twitching psychopaths, throw rocks at three of them, point at two others,
and yell "THEY DID IT!" and flee.
I am the fire in your fajitas.
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
In article <39A4FF8B...@groupinfo.com>,
David M. Moore <d...@groupinfo.com> wrote:
>Steve Sheldon wrote:
>>
>> "David M. Moore" wrote:
>> > Unlike a certain other "obvious-next-thought" poster
>> > who wouldn't know constructive or creative content
>> > if it wrote itself.
>>
>> Oh no! I'm not provoking you, am I?
>
>Indeed, I was referring to you. However, I wouldn't say that
>I have been "provoked". I simply expect your usual no-brainer
>reply to every thread (including the spams). After digesting
>someone's insightful commentary or interesting proposal,
>your inevitable followup post is like a terd that naturally
>occurs afterward.
>
>--
>David Moore
>d...@groupinfo.com
Dave Ahn
>)I thought Netrek was like basketball? That's the analogy you usually use.
>)
>)Isn't Basketball scored by who has the most points?
>"Continuous scoring" gives an advantage to being ahead greater than the
>point differential, that is, the longer you are ahead, the further you
>get ahead. In essence you get more points just for being ahead, which
>is absolutely not the case in basketball, or for that matter in any
>sport I can think of.
But then, basketball doesn't have the saddle curve effect, either. Whether
one team is ahead by 2 points or 20, the losing team doens't get an inherent
advantage in making a comeback like they do in Netrek. Continuous scoring
is supposed to help counter this effect.
--
Dave Ahn | a...@vec.wfubmc.edu | Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center
When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Try to live your life
so that when you die, you will rejoice and the world will cry. -1/2 jj^2
Tom Holub
)>)
)>)Isn't Basketball scored by who has the most points?
)>"Continuous scoring" gives an advantage to being ahead greater than the
)>point differential, that is, the longer you are ahead, the further you
)>get ahead. In essence you get more points just for being ahead, which
)>is absolutely not the case in basketball, or for that matter in any
)>sport I can think of.
)
)But then, basketball doesn't have the saddle curve effect, either. Whether
)one team is ahead by 2 points or 20, the losing team doens't get an inherent
)advantage in making a comeback like they do in Netrek. Continuous scoring
)is supposed to help counter this effect.
They get an advantage; they get the ball after the other team scores.
There is also a psychological bell curve, and the real distribution of
basketball score differential really isn't much different than the
distribution of score differential in a typical INL season, where there
are some blowouts, some games with big differentials, and games between
evenly-matched teams are usually within 3 points of each other.
-Tom
Art Mascarinas
How's the new job?
Art
"John Morgan Salomon" <jo...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:8o5dfl$g2a$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> Of course I do.
>
> "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall
> fear no evil. For I am the evilest motherfucker in the valley."
>
> I'll provoke him then I'll provoke his mom and and and.
>
> -John
> Fuzzy He Don't Know Me Vewy Weww, Do He
>
> In article <8o1gsv$18ve$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>,
> Steve Sheldon <ssheldon...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> >Careful... John... Don't want to provoke David. :)
>
>
Niclas Fredriksson
> > What will YOU decide?
>
> I've decided not to play in either leagues.
I've decided to play in both leagues, but I don't know what became of my
new team that was created around May. We had a full roster and were even
discussing strategies on our mailinglist. I guess I'll have to sign up as
a "player looking for a team" in both leagues (whenever the WNL fixes
their homepage to make that possible).
Regards,
Niclas
Niclas Fredriksson
> Where are all these active players who also have an (unbiased) opinion?
I'd like to see a third league as well, so that we can get a LOT of clue
games going. I'm still hoping that someone will create two hockey leagues
as well.
Regards,
Niclas
throne_...@my-deja.com
"Steve Sheldon" <ssheldon...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> "Tom Holub" <do...@best.com> wrote in message
> > Jettish on the organizing board?
>
> I have to agree with Tom on that one point.
>
> My concern is that Jitesh has been whining for years about the
> "self-appointed" Tom Holub master of the Universe and INL.
goddamn! do it the klingon way. get on the dogfight server and
see who r00ls! i'm putting my money on Tom :)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
throne_...@my-deja.com
kber...@pitt.edu (Kevin M Bernatz) wrote:
>A compromise is to start games at 10:00 PM EST/7:00 PM PST and
> make the game length 60 minutes.
i guess nobody remembers the glory of 120 minute games!
in a few months we'll be talking about how we used to
play these "marathon" 90 minute games.
Dave Ahn
>)But then, basketball doesn't have the saddle curve effect, either. Whether
>)one team is ahead by 2 points or 20, the losing team doens't get an inherent
>)advantage in making a comeback like they do in Netrek. Continuous scoring
>)is supposed to help counter this effect.
>They get an advantage; they get the ball after the other team scores.
That's not an advantage. They get the ball after the other team scores
regardless of whether they are ahead or behind.
>There is also a psychological bell curve,
Psychological bell curves have nothing to do with game mechanics. They
only affect team strategy within the same scope of rules.
>and the real distribution of basketball score differential really isn't
>much different than the distribution of score differential in a typical
>INL season,
That is not a very good statistic. The granularity of netrek scores and
other factors make a statistical comparison of score differentials
meaningless between netrek and basketball.
Peter Mardahl
I'd show up to watch this. How about it Jitesh? Tom?
PeterM
Zachary Uram
:D
Niclas Fredriksson
> goddamn! do it the klingon way. get on the dogfight server and
> see who r00ls! i'm putting my money on Tom :)
Hahaha. This is the best suggestion so far. I think all differences should
be resolved at the dogfight server.
/Niclas
John Morgan Salomon
twink splatter afterwards.
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
In article <8oe2fg$eh8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <throne_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <8np1oi$1f9a$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>,
> "Steve Sheldon" <ssheldon...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>
>> "Tom Holub" <do...@best.com> wrote in message
>> news:liTn5.3725$R87.67991@sjc-read...
>> > Jettish on the organizing board?
>>
>> I have to agree with Tom on that one point.
>>
>> My concern is that Jitesh has been whining for years about the
>> "self-appointed" Tom Holub master of the Universe and INL.
>
>goddamn! do it the klingon way. get on the dogfight server and
>see who r00ls! i'm putting my money on Tom :)
>
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Kevin M Bernatz
>John Morgan Salomon <jo...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>Second. Awesome idea. Make sure you get someone to wipe up the SoCal
>twink splatter afterwards.
*sigh* You must be too used to the fresh air over in Switzerland..
the smog over at Berkely must be preventing your brain from forming
rational thoughts. Jitesh would take Mojo in every ship type in a best out
of X format.
-K
John Morgan Salomon
contest like a baby treats a diaper, is the lack of blood to my brain from
the "Thai Baby" treatment yer mom's giving me under the table right now.
Frankly, I think you may be right, since I'm forming the idea that Tots
and his merry band of Caltech twinks replaced Mr. Patel with some twisted
robot clone years ago. "Ewok-Bot Mk. VII on-line, sir."
I still say, do it. And I like the idea of settling all Netrek disputes in
a cage match. Better yet, a cage match after a six-pack and a bong...
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
In article <8ogqmj$2fi$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
Kevin M Bernatz <kber...@pitt.edu> wrote:
> *sigh* You must be too used to the fresh air over in Switzerland..
>the smog over at Berkely must be preventing your brain from forming
>rational thoughts. Jitesh would take Mojo in every ship type in a best out
>of X format.
>
>-K