Yea, tho' I walk through the valley of the shadow of Red Shirt
Jaye Mathisen
Actually, I didn't see a good spot to put this in the
current Netrek teachings/SB bashing...
1) SC's
Back in the good old days of no-UDP, I could only fly BB's,
as a desparate measure to try and stay alive, due to
350ms lag. Along comes UDP/DDtemp change, and I switch to
(in my opinion, a better all-around ship), the DD.
Never really paid much attention to the other ship types,
DD was it. So I get stuck in a game with turkey (RS), MUCUS,
and a few other good players, and finally, revelation dawns.
THE SCOUT KICKS.
After switching to SC's, my play noticeably improved. After
we genocided, it was surprising to see me listed just after
MUCUS with the number of planets taken (he was top, I had
1 less) and the number of armies bombes was the same.
Hell, even against some moderately clueful Kli's, I managed
to indep Kli in a scout after a beautiful fake to cas by mucus.
With UDP and the much reduced lag problem, the SC's nimbleness
certainly makes it a much-improved ship. I guess I must
be getting old and stuck in my ways, but I'm a convert now.
Hell, it took me and 5150 1 sc (his) and 2 DD's (mine) to chase
down ZZ carrying 2 all over the galaxy. Now I realize that ZZ's
probably one of the best, if not the best SC player, but I didn't
think it'd take that long to run him down.
I find that playing a SC keeps me getting back in to the game
much more. If I scummed 2.5+ kills in a DD, I spent too much
time running around trying to drum up 5 armies, but with a
SC, scum,grab,drop,die, repeat. Definitely a "different"
style of play.
However, the SC dropping introduced a problem that at the
time wasn't being taken care of. We had a kind of army
shortage, or too many would-be planet scums, but they
wouldn't take the planets that I just dropped on... Of
course, communication during that whole game was off,
perhaps that's all it was.
2) Bases.
I have to agree with Wreck in most aspects of base play. The
problem is the difference between his range and my range is
about a tactical map width :(. On the other hand, a person
can only get better with practice, and it's irritating to
see somebody take that base out and waste it on a philosophical
difference. Mainly because the person is doing it only to
make sure that nobody else uses it. Which I feel is
fundamentally wrong given that there's only one of 'em.
I do think the base should be unescorted and able to hold it's
own, or at most 1 escort scumming kills and then taking. I usually
tell my teammates that I either intend to hang back and collect,
or attempt to be more aggressive and get up to the front.
The problem with drawing away teammates to defend the base will
always be a problem, I wish that the base could pressor teammates
off the tactical, because some of the so-called good-hearted
escorts ARE being worthless, defending me from nothing. A 4+
kill escort is a pain, and a detriment, I try to get rid of
them via messages, but some of 'em won't go. Hell, I was
in a game the other day I think on discovery, and was
pushing my 2 escorts into the oggers trying to get them
to take the hint, since they were ignoring messages.
3) Messages.
A lot of people lament the fact that people don't read
messages, but I must say, the message board is getting
to be a pain. Too much crap goes to the All/Team board,
and not enough to a specific player. Messages like "Rc,
are you listening?" directed to the Team board do nothing,
other than distract me from what I was doing to look at
the message board. (Especially if I'm not Rc :))
---
Had to throw in my 2 bits worth...
--
Jaye Mathisen, COE Systems Manager (406) 994-4780
410 Roberts Hall,Dept. of Computer Science
Montana State University,Bozeman MT 59717 os...@cs.montana.edu
Grey Knight (Shawn Collenburg)
>3) Messages.
>A lot of people lament the fact that people don't read
>messages, but I must say, the message board is getting
>to be a pain. Too much crap goes to the All/Team board,
>and not enough to a specific player. Messages like "Rc,
>are you listening?" directed to the Team board do nothing,
>other than distract me from what I was doing to look at
>the message board. (Especially if I'm not Rc :))
Personally, I think the "What are you doing in 3rd space while
I'm the only one defending (LPS) dra?" is a little better when
used for public humiliation (since by that time I'm a little pissed)
Grey Knight
Sean Christopher Simmons
through th.. Jaye Math...@cs.montana (3769)
> Back in the good old days of no-UDP, I could only fly BB's,
> as a desparate measure to try and stay alive, due to
> 350ms lag. Along comes UDP/DDtemp change, and I switch to
> (in my opinion, a better all-around ship), the DD.
> Never really paid much attention to the other ship types,
> DD was it. So I get stuck in a game with turkey (RS), MUCUS,
> and a few other good players, and finally, revelation dawns.
> THE SCOUT KICKS.
I think that a lot of people play the DD just because they don't want
to use the default ship. That seems uncool somehow. I was the same
way. The BB is too slow to be much fun (The SB is a special case.), and
the SC is tricky to use well. In fact, the CA is generally better than
the DD in one direction, and the SC is better in the other. Neither one
really loses much, so the DD is sort of hosed. I'll do a full write-up
sometime.
> Hell, it took me and 5150 1 sc (his) and 2 DD's (mine) to chase
> down ZZ carrying 2 all over the galaxy. Now I realize that ZZ's
> probably one of the best, if not the best SC player, but I didn't
> think it'd take that long to run him down.
I couldn't let this one pass. I'd put red Shirt, Mergatroid, Warsong,
as better than me with no questions, and quite a few as possibly better
than me. Thanks for the compliment, though.
> I find that playing a SC keeps me getting back in to the game
> much more. If I scummed 2.5+ kills in a DD, I spent too much
> time running around trying to drum up 5 armies, but with a
> SC, scum,grab,drop,die, repeat. Definitely a "different"
> style of play.
It's a much faster pace. It takes some getting used to, but it's worth it.
"Drop shields. Det"
ZZnew guy
Michael Moore
>
> I think that a lot of people play the DD just because they don't want
>to use the default ship. That seems uncool somehow. I was the same
>way. The BB is too slow to be much fun (The SB is a special case.), and
>the SC is tricky to use well. In fact, the CA is generally better than
>the DD in one direction, and the SC is better in the other. Neither one
>really loses much, so the DD is sort of hosed. I'll do a full write-up
>sometime.
>
I disagree. I play the DD very extensively when it comes time
to play "serious". I use it in the midgame for the most part, and at the
start as well if it is my job to guard armies.
You guys seem to think the DD is worse off for being good at
everything and excellent at nothing, but I find it to be my greatest
asset. The DD can do most everything. I have the speed I need to get
places, the fuel and firepower to defend planets, escort, and control
space. And I have the ability to carry five armies. High-quality games
evolve rapidly, you can't always know which aspect of the game you'll
be called upon to perform ahead of time.
This stuff about scouts being better dogfighters than DDs is,
as far as I have seen, totally wrong. Not just when I went out hunting
down people to dogfight in DD vs. Scout, but in everyday games where
I come up against a scout. I always smack myself upside the head when
I let a scout out dogfight me, simply because it happens so rarely.
This may seem like tooting my own horn, but consider that on
bronco at 5pm last week I came in with Spaceace, Red shirt, Mr. Wizard,
about 5 admirals in all, only one or two newbies. Naturally I wanted
to grab the base but some other loser had grabbed it so I was stuck
with doing grunt work. :)
Anyway, I used the DD. Red shirt used the scout, spaceace had
his CA, and I had my DD. The teams were very even, it was a great game,
and at the end of the hour it was all tied up again. Guess who had the
highest ratings in the game at the end of an hour? I didn't have the
highest planets, I didn't have the highest bombing, or the highest
offense, but I did have the highest total. This proves my point fairly
well. The DD is good at doing most everything. And when the
circumstances are right, this versatility can make it the most dangerous
ship on the board (with the exception of the SB, which of course is
the greatest ship of all - TRANSWARP TRANSWARP TRANSWARP)
The scout is great for endgame, and scoutbombing, and things were
speed is essential. She is not good for dogfighting (despite popular
belief) nor is she good for escorting or ogging (she can make do but you'd
rather have a DD in these situations, or better yet a CA).
The CA is good for space control, escorting, ogging, and dogfighting.
The DD is good at all of the above, but to a lesser degree. But
the universialtiy (catholicism?) of it is what people should exploit to
use it effectively. And when you get right down to she has her place
in netrek as much as any other ship(and if not more so -- the mid-game,
while not the longest, is probably the most important part of the game,
and that is where the DD is most usefull) as any other ship.
I am fairly strong in my beliefs, but in the end all is just
opinion. How can one prove anything in the world of netrek?
-Michael )Ged( (SB law # 4 - Pelters should be shot on site.)
PS - I wonder if they will *ever* network xtank..... that would be some
fun times!!
Robert Hill
> [...stuff about the hosed DD...]
> You guys seem to think the DD is worse off for being good at
> everything and excellent at nothing, but I find it to be my greatest
> asset. The DD can do most everything. I have the speed I need to get
> places, the fuel and firepower to defend planets, escort, and control
> space. And I have the ability to carry five armies. High-quality games
> evolve rapidly, you can't always know which aspect of the game you'll
> be called upon to perform ahead of time.
The DD is excellent at a few things, by the way. The problem I have with
your statement is that most of the time, I have a specific idea of what I
am going to do with a ship. If I don't, then I use the ship that *I* can
do my best in, the CA. If I know I am going to do a particular thing,
i'll take a ship out that best fits that need...almost always, this isn't
the DD. My play seems to be about this ship ratio: 50% CA, 30% SC, 15%
DD, 5% BB. This is by no means what I think other people should do. I
think all players should play the ship that they play best unless they
have a reason not to.
A scout can usually ogg better than a DD, bomb better than a DD. It can
kindof take planets better than a DD, but in a way a DD is better, because
it can carry 5. DD has great cloaking, but the range of a DD as compared
to a SC is close(and usually irrelevant). If you need to fight...how can
you justify using a DD rather than a CA? Perhaps you fight much better in
a DD than most do. I like the CA because it is difficult for scout oggers
to kill. Its been my experience that DD's are much easier to kill in a SC
than CAs.
> This stuff about scouts being better dogfighters than DDs is,
> as far as I have seen, totally wrong. Not just when I went out hunting
> down people to dogfight in DD vs. Scout, but in everyday games where
> I come up against a scout. I always smack myself upside the head when
> I let a scout out dogfight me, simply because it happens so rarely.
It all depends. If a SC doesn't run from a DD, I think the DD will beat
it. This rarely happens, so I think the matter isn't important. Of
course, remember, against the clueless, anything will work.
> This may seem like tooting my own horn, but consider that on
> bronco at 5pm last week I came in with Spaceace, Red shirt, Mr. Wizard,
> about 5 admirals in all, only one or two newbies. Naturally I wanted
> to grab the base but some other loser had grabbed it so I was stuck
> with doing grunt work. :)
> Anyway, I used the DD. Red shirt used the scout, spaceace had
> his CA, and I had my DD. The teams were very even, it was a great game,
> and at the end of the hour it was all tied up again. Guess who had the
> highest ratings in the game at the end of an hour? I didn't have the
> highest planets, I didn't have the highest bombing, or the highest
> offense, but I did have the highest total. This proves my point fairly
> well. The DD is good at doing most everything. And when the
> circumstances are right, this versatility can make it the most dangerous
> ship on the board (with the exception of the SB, which of course is
> the greatest ship of all - TRANSWARP TRANSWARP TRANSWARP)
Ratings aren't significant...so you got some DI and planets..stats aren't
meaningful in the short run. I'm sure if Red Shirt played for the stats,
he would've made out like a bandit.
> The scout is great for endgame, and scoutbombing, and things were
> speed is essential. She is not good for dogfighting (despite popular
> belief) nor is she good for escorting or ogging (she can make do but
> you'd rather have a DD in these situations, or better yet a CA).
I'd disagree with you here, also. Scouts are good for dogfighting, as
long as they give ground. There is no way that a scout is not good for
ogging. That's all I seem to do now adays in pickup games. The scout is
a mondo ogger...much better than a DD. A SC is a much better ogger than a
CA to ogg other scouts and it is about even for ogging DD's. A CA is a
much better ogger for larger ships than any other ship.
> The CA is good for space control, escorting, ogging, and
>dogfighting.
Yup...it sucks for planet taking (no decel), but I find myself doing most
of my planet work in it anyway because it is such a good fighter.
> The DD is good at all of the above, but to a lesser degree. But
> the universialtiy (catholicism?) of it is what people should exploit to
> use it effectively. And when you get right down to she has her place
> in netrek as much as any other ship(and if not more so -- the mid-game,
> while not the longest, is probably the most important part of the game,
> and that is where the DD is most usefull) as any other ship.
Certainly the DD has its place in the game...it is a useful ship...but I
think most people understand that there are better alternatives than the
DD in general. Ask hell peacock....or almost any other reformed DD
player(there are many, like me :).
> I am fairly strong in my beliefs, but in the end all is just
> opinion. How can one prove anything in the world of netrek?
You really can't. I'll stick by my guns that for 85% of the time, the DD
is NOT the ship to use.
Rob
aka Spaceace!
sl...@cc.usu.edu
> the DD. My play seems to be about this ship ratio: 50% CA, 30% SC, 15%
> DD, 5% BB. This is by no means what I think other people should do. I
I prefer to use the dd, because it *can* do a lot of stuff, my ship
usage is more like; DD: 50% SC: 25% BB: 20% and CA: 5%.
> If you need to fight...how can
> you justify using a DD rather than a CA?
Because they are more maneuverable than CA's and can dodge easier,
their torps also move faster than CA's do, they may not cause as much damage.
I personally think that DD's should raise their torpspeed, by 1 point;
SC torpspeed: 16
DD torpspeed: 14
CA torpspeed: 12
BB torpspeed: 12
AS torpspeed: 16
SB torpspeed: 14
This is how it is right now, the difference is not that noticeable,
unless you actualy pay attention. the most noteable aspect, is with a sc's
torps, which seem to jamm over everybody elses. I think tweaking the DD's
torpspeed to 15, and tweaking the CA's torpspeed to 13, would give a little bit
more variable between ships. I have tried this, and you can tell the
difference (although my friend admantly hates it, because he is a scout scumm,
but...I am a DD scumm :)
>> This stuff about scouts being better dogfighters than DDs is,
>> as far as I have seen, totally wrong.
How true that is. The main way a scout kills a larger ship, is when
they runnerscumm. Which brings up the point of faster torps for DD's...it does
even it out a little.
> I'd disagree with you here, also. Scouts are good for dogfighting, as
> long as they give ground.
That sure is an elegant way of saying runnerscumming!
>> I am fairly strong in my beliefs, but in the end all is just
>> opinion. How can one prove anything in the world of netrek?
By grinding peoples vital organs into the dust, all the while insisting
that DD's are better (and not stopping until they agree with you!).
-Lynx
Michael Moore
>Michael Moore writes
>
>to kill. Its been my experience that DD's are much easier to kill in a SC
>than CAs.
>
Well, obviously if you gotta get somewhere the CA is more likely
to survive a direct ogg. But if you have the whole board the DD is
capable of running from oggers much better than CAs.... its sort of a
tradeoff.
>
>It all depends. If a SC doesn't run from a DD, I think the DD will beat
>it. This rarely happens, so I think the matter isn't important. Of
>course, remember, against the clueless, anything will work.
>
Well, that's what I think too. But that is dogfighting, not
running away. If you have to control a part of space with a DD, you'll
be glad to show the scout where the door is... IMHO.
>
>Ratings aren't significant...so you got some DI and planets..stats aren't
>meaningful in the short run. I'm sure if Red Shirt played for the stats,
>he would've made out like a bandit.
>
It was an hour of mid-game play.... I felt is was quite
meaningfull because no one was scumming per-say. I was just doing
whatever I could when the occasions arose. And I submit to you,
the reading public, that it was the DDs versatility that made me more
effective than the rest during this phase of play.
>
>I'd disagree with you here, also. Scouts are good for dogfighting, as
>long as they give ground. There is no way that a scout is not good for
>ogging. That's all I seem to do now adays in pickup games. The scout is
>a mondo ogger...much better than a DD. A SC is a much better ogger than a
>CA to ogg other scouts and it is about even for ogging DD's. A CA is a
>much better ogger for larger ships than any other ship.
>
In a DD scouts are troublesome, but really, a scout ogger? If
the target isn't damaged, or a DD/sc, I don't think so.
>
>Certainly the DD has its place in the game...it is a useful ship...but I
>think most people understand that there are better alternatives than the
>DD in general. Ask hell peacock....or almost any other reformed DD
>player(there are many, like me :).
>
I am a CA player who switched to the DD when the cooling rate
was changed. So I'm just as reformed, only in the opposite direction.
The DD is very usefull for the mid-game and when you can't know ahead
of time just what you might need to do. If used during these times it
is the best ship to have. If I had to choose one ship to have for
the whole game, I would take the DD.n
-Michael )Ged( SB law # 6 - twinks are expendable.
Sean Christopher Simmons
throug.. Sun G...@iastate.edu (840)
> Ged, I tried telling everyone about the merits of the DD a week or two ago.
> All I got was CMU players "proving" that other ships were better by talking.
> I always get more DI than CAs and SCs, you always get more DI than CAs and SCs,
> and, of course, we give away fewer free kills than SCs. When I switch to a
> scout, my planet rating drops by 1/3, my planet bombing goes up a little, but
> ogging also drops by 1/3. Offense stays about the same, but at the cost of
> a .85 ratio instead of 1.2...those free kills are hurting the team!
> Now, I may just suck in a Scout, but then why don't the scout players
> outplay Ged and I? We probably have less talent than some of these scout
> players, but we're in a better ship. ;-) Just let them think that SCs are
> better. Those INL scouts are just as crunchy as pick-up scouts.
I find it somewhat amazing that some people still use DI and ratio to
prove what good play is. Most of the top players I see have .8-1.0
ratios and make 3-5 DI/hour. Of course it depends quite a bit. I
wouldn't judge on those numbers alone.
The typical DD player spends most of the game trying to scum 2+ kills.
Haven't gotten them, he picks up until he's full and then waits for a
planet to be completely clear beacuse he doen't want to risk losing his
kills. The typical SC spends most of his time bombing. He he gets a
kill, he may keep bombing or may pick up and drop until he's killed.
There is a lot less time wasted. The DD will get more DI and a better
ratio. The SC will win more games.
Of the players for SS, GB, XG, and TWNN, 2 are well known for using
DDs. However, in spite of his reputation, bav almost entirely gave up
DDs when he quit playing on Chaos, and even Hell Peacock has been forced
to use other ships more and more. There is a reason for this. When the
best players in the game all treat a ship with scorn, why do people not
pay attention? Do Ged and Weenie Blaster know the game better than
Spaceace and Red Shirt?
ZZnew guy
Sun God
All I got was CMU players "proving" that other ships were better by talking.
I always get more DI than CAs and SCs, you always get more DI than CAs and SCs,
and, of course, we give away fewer free kills than SCs. When I switch to a
scout, my planet rating drops by 1/3, my planet bombing goes up a little, but
ogging also drops by 1/3. Offense stays about the same, but at the cost of
a .85 ratio instead of 1.2...those free kills are hurting the team!
Now, I may just suck in a Scout, but then why don't the scout players
outplay Ged and I? We probably have less talent than some of these scout
players, but we're in a better ship. ;-) Just let them think that SCs are
better. Those INL scouts are just as crunchy as pick-up scouts.
Kevin Michael Bernatz
> ZZnew guy
Yea Gads! ZZ's are propagating to new accounts!! Call the Police! Call
Superman! Get the women and children in the house! Help! Help! HELP!
-KB
Akira/Sun Tzu/Fidei Defensor/Mo/Redjac/Ame Damnee/Arbiter
Bellum/Pallida Mors/Kill_The_Scums/Spartacus/MaTiLdA
(Just checking to see if I remember all my names :> )
exo...@iastate.edu
Cruisers are the best all-around ship, the standard default ship
of netrek; the other ships can sometimes be better suited to specialized
tasks, but there is no question which ship is the best all-around. It's
very silly to argue against the obvious......:)
Exodus
Jon Blow
> Ask hell peacock....or almost any other reformed DD
>player(there are many, like me :).
I was going to stay out of this discussion, but...
I wouldn't call myself a "reformed" DD player. The DD is far and away
my favorite ship to play. I just don't use them for EVERYTHING anymore,
because I've become more serious about winning.
From my observations I would note that there are relatively few people out
there who actually play DD effectively. I don't think that this is
because it is hard to play one effectively, but because most people just
don't have the right idea.
Lately I fly a cruiser and have an offense of 3, simply because most of
the time I'm in a game there is a severe lack of ogging, escorting, and
local space control on my team and I try to fill that gap. When I'm
actually trying to be a general player, I will play a wide variety of
ships depending on what's going on at the time.
-Hell Peacock
Scott Drellishak
)Someone writes:
)> Ask hell peacock....or almost any other reformed DD
)>player(there are many, like me :).
)
)I was going to stay out of this discussion, but...
)
)I wouldn't call myself a "reformed" DD player. The DD is far and away
)my favorite ship to play. I just don't use them for EVERYTHING anymore,
)because I've become more serious about winning.
As another (formerly vocal) proponent of DDs, I'd like to second this
comment. DDs are great -- but not for *everything*. For instance, I
don't try to take heavily defended (read "last") planets in a DD if I
can help it. Similarly, I don't ogg starbases in a DD if I can help
it. Note the "if I can help it"s, though. The DD can do anything
passably well (except absorb phasers a close range), so if I play one,
and the team suddenly needs me to do something, I'm able. I have no
qualms about ogging starbases in a DD -- I just hope the rest of the
team uncloaks when I do.
I you can pick your ship task by task, then the DD is clearly not the
ship to choose every time. Otherwise, the DD lets you be prepared for
just about anything.
--
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Scott Drellishak s...@neuromancer.metaphor.com |
| "Spumco ... the Danes call it quality." |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Roger Books
> Ged, I tried telling everyone about the merits of the DD a week or two ago.
>All I got was CMU players "proving" that other ships were better by talking.
>I always get more DI than CAs and SCs, you always get more DI than CAs and
SCs,
>and, of course, we give away fewer free kills than SCs. When I switch to a
>scout, my planet rating drops by 1/3, my planet bombing goes up a little,
but
>ogging also drops by 1/3. Offense stays about the same, but at the cost of
>a .85 ratio instead of 1.2...those free kills are hurting the team!
I pick my ships by mission and lag. A DD is a wonderfully useful all around
ship, when you have a small lag. A scout is the best dogfighter in the
game, when you have absolutely no lag. You can't touch a scout with torps,
when it has no lag. With even small lag a dogfighting scout is
powdered toast (tm). With medium lagg a DD has the same fate. In places
where you are fighting multiple opponents or have moderate lagg the CA is
the best all around ship. (BB??? I only use those for amusement value.)
Of course, for maximum lag I use an SC and scoutbomb, staying away from
other players unless guarding worlds I want to bomb. Then I lock on,
maxwarp, shield, cloak, and start hitting the bomb key just before the
world comes on the tactical. [still no UDP :(]
Roger
Michael Moore
>
> I find it somewhat amazing that some people still use DI and ratio to
>prove what good play is. Most of the top players I see have .8-1.0
>ratios and make 3-5 DI/hour. Of course it depends quite a bit. I
>wouldn't judge on those numbers alone.
Well, I certainly don't think DI is a universal indicator. But it
does show *something*.
> The typical DD player spends most of the game trying to scum 2+ kills.
>Haven't gotten them, he picks up until he's full and then waits for a
>planet to be completely clear beacuse he doen't want to risk losing his
>kills. The typical SC spends most of his time bombing. He he gets a
>kill, he may keep bombing or may pick up and drop until he's killed.
>There is a lot less time wasted. The DD will get more DI and a better
>ratio. The SC will win more games.
I always move in my DD with the first kill. I do just want the
scout does (only slower). And if I manage to snag another kill somewhere
down the line (like I don't die dropping my two), I can start inflicting
even more damage. I think this is a key point of using the DD.
The scout is extremely vital because without her bombing you're
in trouble. The DD is no where near as usefull for bombing as the scout.
This is often what can mean the difference between victory and defeat, so
in that sense I agree with you.
> Of the players for SS, GB, XG, and TWNN, 2 are well known for using
>DDs. However, in spite of his reputation, bav almost entirely gave up
>DDs when he quit playing on Chaos, and even Hell Peacock has been forced
>to use other ships more and more. There is a reason for this. When the
>best players in the game all treat a ship with scorn, why do people not
>pay attention? Do Ged and Weenie Blaster know the game better than
>Spaceace and Red Shirt?
>
Well, excuuuuuuuuuse me for not bowing to peer pressure. I suppose
I should be cowed into submission for daring to have opinions which differ
with the obviously superior players in the game.
It is true it says something, but then most of you are from CMU,
and I find there is a certain bias there.
Also, call Ged arrogant, but I think I know the game as well as
they do. We just have different opinions. Or perhaps revelation comes
suddenly at 3000 DI??? Well, I'm afraid I am a thousand short.
Besides, most of the folks at CMU thought 6 captains couldn't
toast a top-notch SB, and while that was never proven (in netrek you
can't really prove anything, as I've said), it was demonstrated quite
strongly that they could. And it was the captains who were right, not
the Admirals.
And really, wherefor all this arrogance? I think anyone with
200 DI and half a brain is as much a menace as all these four-digit
DI players.
And related to this, Spaceace is arguably the best in the game,
but really, there isn't much difference between him and the other
greats. There are scores of players who are just as effectively
dangerous as he is in a game.... i.e. the edge that spaceace has over
the others is slight at best and rather insignificant overall.
-Michael )Ged( SB law # 7 - if more than three get through at once,
kiss your ass goodbye.
Roger Books
>
> Because they are more maneuverable than CA's and can dodge easier,
>their torps also move faster than CA's do, they may not cause as much damage.
>I personally think that DD's should raise their torpspeed, by 1 point;
>
>SC torpspeed: 16
>DD torpspeed: 14
>CA torpspeed: 12
>BB torpspeed: 12
>AS torpspeed: 16
>SB torpspeed: 14
>
> This is how it is right now, the difference is not that noticeable,
>unless you actualy pay attention. the most noteable aspect, is with a sc's
>torps, which seem to jamm over everybody elses. I think tweaking the DD's
>torpspeed to 15, and tweaking the CA's torpspeed to 13, would give a little bit
>more variable between ships. I have tried this, and you can tell the
>difference (although my friend admantly hates it, because he is a scout scumm,
>but...I am a DD scumm :)
>
Whine whine whine. If you want to raise the DD's torp speed to make it
fair, the scout should have it's torp range raised. The big reason an SC
has to runnerscum to fight is because it's torps are so short you have to
have someone rushing at you for the torps to have the range to hit. Does
anyone know what the difference is between SC torp ranges and CA tractor
ranges? CA (or BB) tractors are the worst thing that can happen to a
scout.
Cirdan
Sherlock (found a small clue.)
Robert Hill
> >
> > I find it somewhat amazing that some people still use DI and ratio
> >to prove what good play is. Most of the top players I see have .8-1.0
> >ratios and make 3-5 DI/hour. Of course it depends quite a bit. I
> >wouldn't judge on those numbers alone.
>
> Well, I certainly don't think DI is a universal indicator. But it
> does show *something*.
I disagree...in the short run, DI shows nothing. Most people can easily
get 10-12 ratings in the first half-hour of tmode, keep over 8 for the
first hour. DI and ratings show nothing unless averaged over a long time
(maybe 50 hours or so) and even then i think they are an indication of
what you do, not how good you are.
> > The typical DD player spends most of the game trying to scum 2+
> >kills.
> >Haven't gotten them, he picks up until he's full and then waits for a
> >planet to be completely clear beacuse he doen't want to risk losing his
> >kills. The typical SC spends most of his time bombing. He he gets a
> >kill, he may keep bombing or may pick up and drop until he's killed.
> >There is a lot less time wasted. The DD will get more DI and a better
> >ratio. The SC will win more games.
>
> I always move in my DD with the first kill. I do just want the
> scout does (only slower). And if I manage to snag another kill
> somewhere down the line (like I don't die dropping my two), I can start
> inflicting even more damage. I think this is a key point of using the
> DD.
Well, you are a *good* DD player...you are certainly not the typical case.
I certainly think that SC's will tend to drop their 2 armies more
frequently than a DD...you say you live and get another kill..is there
some difference to this than being a scout, scum a kill get 2 armies...get
another kill...go back and refit to a DD (a completely understandable
thing, IMHO). Or how about scumming a kill in a CA (much easier to do)
then picking up?? You say of course there is...its easier to get a kill
in a DD(or to take planets in a DD)...I say: excrement. Of course, if
you are a good DD player, and a shitty scout(cruiser), this may be true in
your case. If you *really* want to use your 2 armies better, get in a SC
(2 better warps) or a CA (1 less warp, but more punch).
> The scout is extremely vital because without her bombing you're
> in trouble. The DD is no where near as usefull for bombing as the
> scout. This is often what can mean the difference between victory and
> defeat, so in that sense I agree with you.
Sure...the scout is the ultimate bomber. I also think that 8 sc's will
beat 8 DD's....but it would be player dependant (of course). Perhaps this
is the only way to settle the debate once and for all....
> > Of the players for SS, GB, XG, and TWNN, 2 are well known for
> >using DDs. However, in spite of his reputation, bav almost entirely
> >gave up DDs when he quit playing on Chaos, and even Hell Peacock has
> >been forced to use other ships more and more. There is a reason for
> >this. When the best players in the game all treat a ship with scorn,
> >why do people not pay attention? Do Ged and Weenie Blaster know the
> >game better than Spaceace and Red Shirt?
>
> Well, excuuuuuuuuuse me for not bowing to peer pressure. I
> suppose I should be cowed into submission for daring to have opinions
> which differ with the obviously superior players in the game.
Well, I wish ZZ hadn't added the last line, that way ged couldn't weasle
out of the point by going on with the usual CMU-bash lines. Just to be
curious, has red shirt said anything about this? Not recently, methinks.
He *does* frequently play DD's, and I think his insights to the matter
would be most interesting. Bert, join the fray!!!
I think the simple reason that more big names (ala hell peacock, bav, me,
yea boy, akira) have moved from DD's to other ships is because DD's are
honestly less useful as a general purpose ship. THE general purpose ship
is the CA. Maybe ged *is* more effective in a DD than a CA...this is
certainly possible. In general, I would say (if he is, which isn't
certain) that he is the exception. In my opinion, no honestly great
player will be better in a DD than some other ship. I thought the DD's
were the most mondo ship ever till I played the CA and SC more.
> It is true it says something, but then most of you are from CMU,
> and I find there is a certain bias there.
Well, we are certainly experienced. I no more agree with ZZnew Guy or red
shirt because they are CMU than I agree with Exodus because he's from
IAState. I think its a consensus that the DD isn't the best general
purpose ship. I may be wrong, however....but I bet i'm right!
> Also, call Ged arrogant, but I think I know the game as well as
arrogant...:-) He can ogg as well as MUCUS PIG, base as well as balton,
scout bomb as well as mergatroid...he's who I want on MY team!!! :-) :-)
:-) :-)
> they do. We just have different opinions. Or perhaps revelation comes
> suddenly at 3000 DI??? Well, I'm afraid I am a thousand short.
Actually, only 2 people have over 3000 DI on bronco...red shirt ain't one
of them :-) (of course, akira and red shirt probably have over 3000 DI on
all their bronco characters combined...me and wiz only play a few chars).
You lose your point with the silly flames, ged...
> Besides, most of the folks at CMU thought 6 captains couldn't
> toast a top-notch SB, and while that was never proven (in netrek you
> can't really prove anything, as I've said), it was demonstrated quite
> strongly that they could. And it was the captains who were right, not
> the Admirals.
Change of subject? Sure...I was wrong. My basis for my opinion was at
the general skill of 6 captains last year and my survival rate during
pickup games when I was SBing. In a pickup game a 6 (typical) captain ogg
couldn't kill a top SB at his home planet. This was the basis for my
(incorrect) opinion. Also, I wouldn't say "most of the folks at CMU"
since it was really just me. Sigh...get on with the point...
> And really, wherefor all this arrogance? I think anyone with
> 200 DI and half a brain is as much a menace as all these four-digit
> DI players.
I'd say you are wrong. Very few (honest) 200 DI players can beat
battle-worn INL veterans. Of course, its a case by case basis.
> And related to this, Spaceace is arguably the best in the game,
> but really, there isn't much difference between him and the other
> greats. There are scores of players who are just as effectively
> dangerous as he is in a game.... i.e. the edge that spaceace has over
> the others is slight at best and rather insignificant overall.
The difference is certainly not as significant as it used to be...:-(.
I completely agree. I can name several of players my equal (or better).
You know...kindof like the list you made of people better than MUCUS PIG.
(NOT!) Seriously, there are many players out there that are better than
me. Wait till I get my phaser lock back, tho!!!! :-)
I think that I help my team the most in the fact that I draw attention.
When I get a kill, I get ogged...no matter what(#%#@#^ oggers!). This is
very useful if I have teammates who have a clue. For instance, yesterday,
2 players played man-to-man defense on me(one at a time on 2 different
games, oddly enough they were both from MIT...is there some anti-spaceace
histeria up there???? :) ). I still did *ok*, but it was very annoying,
and I thought they did a great job. This is certainly not something that
is reflected by much more than my team kicking butt... I think this is a
great tactic to use on good player on the other team. Don't ogg...just
never leave him alone.
Rob
aka Spaceace!
ps most improved player i've seen: tfeng. He's top notch...watch out
for him.
pps DD's suck....
:)
:)
:)
:)
5150
> The typical DD player spends most of the game trying to scum 2+ kills.
>planet to be completely clear beacuse he doen't want to risk losing his kills.
Translation: "The 'typical' DD player is a runner scum."
>The typical SC spends most of his time bombing. He he gets a
>kill, he may keep bombing or may pick up and drop until he's killed.
>There is a lot less time wasted. The DD will get more DI and a better
>ratio. The SC will win more games.
I don't think so. YOU will win more games. The typical SC will not. All
the typical SC will do is bomb and harass the opposition. The typical DD
will try to take more since it has a larger army capacity. I believe the
typical escort will be more willing to clear for a DD than a SC, even tho
the DD only has 20 more points of damage capacity than the SC. Granted, the
SC can get in there w/o really needing an escort. But we're talking about
the 'typical' players here.
>When the best players in the game all treat a ship with scorn, why do people
>not pay attention? Do Ged and Weenie Blaster know the game better than
>Spaceace and Red Shirt?
Such unscrupulous namedropping, Hugh. If the best players treat a ship with
scorn, all the more reason i use it and ogg the crap out of them (unless they
are in a SC).
5150
Michael Moore
Spaceace expounds :
>
>I disagree...in the short run, DI shows nothing. Most people can easily
>get 10-12 ratings in the first half-hour of tmode, keep over 8 for the
>first hour. DI and ratings show nothing unless averaged over a long time
>(maybe 50 hours or so) and even then i think they are an indication of
>what you do, not how good you are.
>
DI is important only when the scales are balanced. And there
are things which do not give DI, like escorting... or maybe you are
having a bad day. But when you bomb, and when you ogg, and when you
take planets it shows something.
I must confess, however, that my case-in-point would not
stand up to scientific methedology (sp?), since 1 hour is hardly
enough time to be sure of anything.
But in my experience it is true over time, in the INL games
I have played in, and when I play in good pickup/clue games. Always
I use the DD, and always my stats are fairly evenly distributed and
fairly high.
>Well, you are a *good* DD player...you are certainly not the typical case.
>I certainly think that SC's will tend to drop their 2 armies more
>frequently than a DD...you say you live and get another kill..is there
>some difference to this than being a scout, scum a kill get 2 armies...get
>another kill...go back and refit to a DD (a completely understandable
If I live in my DD, or I kill an ogger, or just generally get
another kill while carrying my two, I am immediately available to pick
up more. This is a strength the SC doesn't have, and it happens
frequently enough (at least for me) that it turns into a big win for
the DD over the scout in planet taking.
In the general case of two equally cluefull, equally skilled
players, in the mid-game, I would choose the DD. In the end-game the
scout is almost always better than a DD.
>thing, IMHO). Or how about scumming a kill in a CA (much easier to do)
>then picking up?? You say of course there is...its easier to get a kill
Scumming kills is not a problem even in the most cluefull games.
So the CA being better at it doesn't particularly matter, IMHO.
>in a DD(or to take planets in a DD)...I say: excrement. Of course, if
It is easier to get a kill in a CA, but it isn't THAT much
easier. And then you both have kills, but the DD is faster and can
carry as much as you, so the only problem is living through oggs. And
the DD loses some here (but not enough to nullify its use, I think).
And when it comes to faking for one planet and going for another, only
the scout is better at it. And that is why I think the DD is a better
planet taker in the mid-game than the CA, in general. If there is
heavy ogging, however, the CA might be the safer bet.
>you are a good DD player, and a shitty scout(cruiser), this may be true in
>your case. If you *really* want to use your 2 armies better, get in a SC
>(2 better warps) or a CA (1 less warp, but more punch).
>
I am at home in the CA and I am good enough in the scout. I
use them all a lot, but the DD a little more. I have played the CA
more than any other ship, but when the cooling came I started using the
DD as they were meant to be used, and since then I play them more than
the CA.
>
>Well, I wish ZZ hadn't added the last line, that way ged couldn't weasle
>out of the point by going on with the usual CMU-bash lines. Just to be
>curious, has red shirt said anything about this? Not recently, methinks.
>He *does* frequently play DD's, and I think his insights to the matter
>would be most interesting. Bert, join the fray!!!
>
Fuck weasling out. I just refuse to be refuted based solely
on the fact that all the CMU Admirals disagree with me. I made my point
long time ago....
>I think the simple reason that more big names (ala hell peacock, bav, me,
>yea boy, akira) have moved from DD's to other ships is because DD's are
>honestly less useful as a general purpose ship. THE general purpose ship
>is the CA. Maybe ged *is* more effective in a DD than a CA...this is
Look, all I am saying is that the DD is the best ship for the
mid-game. I am not so sure the CA is the general purpose ship, but I
haven't decided for sure yet......
>certainly possible. In general, I would say (if he is, which isn't
>certain) that he is the exception. In my opinion, no honestly great
>player will be better in a DD than some other ship. I thought the DD's
>were the most mondo ship ever till I played the CA and SC more.
>
I think that a truly good player will be better in a DD during
the mid-game than any other ship. And thus we differ.
>> It is true it says something, but then most of you are from CMU,
>> and I find there is a certain bias there.
>
>Well, we are certainly experienced. I no more agree with ZZnew Guy or red
>shirt because they are CMU than I agree with Exodus because he's from
>IAState. I think its a consensus that the DD isn't the best general
>purpose ship. I may be wrong, however....but I bet i'm right!
>
Well it seems among the cluefull circles I am the minority. But
I was with the SB debate too. Cheh-CHING.
>Actually, only 2 people have over 3000 DI on bronco...red shirt ain't one
>of them :-) (of course, akira and red shirt probably have over 3000 DI on
>all their bronco characters combined...me and wiz only play a few chars).
>
>You lose your point with the silly flames, ged...
>
My point was made a long time ago. Now I am simply defending
my stance against senseless assertions like "Since all the admirals
believe it it must be right".
>
>Change of subject? Sure...I was wrong. My basis for my opinion was at
>the general skill of 6 captains last year and my survival rate during
>pickup games when I was SBing. In a pickup game a 6 (typical) captain ogg
>couldn't kill a top SB at his home planet. This was the basis for my
>(incorrect) opinion. Also, I wouldn't say "most of the folks at CMU"
>since it was really just me. Sigh...get on with the point...
>
My sub-point here is that it is once again a case of my having a
minority opinion. I am trying to say that just because you are in
the minority doesn't mean you are wrong. It isn't a flame, unless you
are overly defensive about being wrong.
And don't go acting like you were the only one. Not a single
admiral that I recall thought the captains could do it... at best the
super-clue said they didn't know. I took a lot of heat for it, but
I'm taking a lot of heat now...
>> 200 DI and half a brain is as much a menace as all these four-digit
>> DI players.
>
>I'd say you are wrong. Very few (honest) 200 DI players can beat
>battle-worn INL veterans. Of course, its a case by case basis.
>
Well, ok. I was too strong there, what I mean is that you
have to watch out for them just as much as for the admirals. Your
chances of taking a planet under them is only slightly better than
under a battle-worn rough-and-tumble grizzled INL veteran. Same
with ogging, same with being ogged, same with everything.
But you probably still disagree with me.... :)
>
>I completely agree. I can name several of players my equal (or better).
>You know...kindof like the list you made of people better than MUCUS PIG.
>(NOT!) Seriously, there are many players out there that are better than
>me. Wait till I get my phaser lock back, tho!!!! :-)
>
Better schmetter.... the amount they are better than you or
worse than you is my concern. I say it is slight, hardly worth noticing,
but others feel it is a vast chasm that separates you. It is this
difference that was the basis for my MUCUS list and is the basis for
my assertions now.
>ps most improved player i've seen: tfeng. He's top notch...watch out
>for him.
>
And there is an example. He is just as dangerous as you are
to me for all intents and purposes. It makes no difference if you
are Fear, chi, Spaceace, Mucus, Duck Dodgers, Exodus, Hector, Freekill,
Red Shirt, ZZnewguy, Yea Boy, Hell Peacock, Mojo, Wreck, or whomever.
I respect them all equally because neither is more dangerous than the
other.
-Michael )Ged(
5150
>> [...stuff about the hosed DD...]
>This is by no means what I think other people should do. I
>think all players should play the ship that they play best unless they
>have a reason not to.
Of course. I play about 15% SC, 25% CA, 4% AS, 1% BB, 55% DD. Basing,
naturally, is a different case.
>A scout can usually ogg better than a DD, bomb better than a DD.
*bzzz* Wrong. Thank you for playing. YOU can surely ogg better in a SC
than a DD. The average person cannot. Then again, the average person really
doesn't ogg that much...
>Its been my experience that DD's are much easier to kill in a SC than CAs.
Well, i think most people would conclude that's pretty obvious: better
pressors, more damage capacity, and better weapons, only worse maneuverability.
>> This stuff about scouts being better dogfighters than DDs is,
>> as far as I have seen, totally wrong.
>It all depends. If a SC doesn't run from a DD, I think the DD will beat
>it. This rarely happens, so I think the matter isn't important. Of
>course, remember, against the clueless, anything will work.
If a lighter ship doesn't run from a heavier ship (except maybe CA vs. BB),
the lighter ship will lose. Period. Speaking on average, of course; i'm
not about to go dogfight ZZ's scout in my CA to prove my point.
>There is no way that a scout is not good for ogging. That's all I
>seem to do now adays in pickup games. The scout is
>a mondo ogger...much better than a DD. A SC is a much better ogger than a
>CA to ogg other scouts and it is about even for ogging DD's. A CA is a
>much better ogger for larger ships than any other ship.
There is no way a scout is a better ogger than a DD. It has crappier beams,
shitty torps, and a weak phaser, plus a weaker explosion, plus worse cloaking
and less fuel. What more can i say? The only time i use SC to ogg is to ogg
difficult DDs and to ogg SCs. The only time i use CA to ogg is to ogg tough
BBs and bases. Otherwise, the DD is a great ogger. On average the CA is
better at ogging, but i prefer using the DD because it turns better and has
better brakes.
>> The CA is good for space control, escorting, ogging, and
>>dogfighting.
>Yup...it sucks for planet taking (no decel), but I find myself doing most
>of my planet work in it anyway because it is such a good fighter.
Most CAs that want to take are t-o-a-s-t. If you want to die after taking,
use a SC.
>Certainly the DD has its place in the game...it is a useful ship...but I
>think most people understand that there are better alternatives than the
>DD in general. Ask hell peacock....or almost any other reformed DD
>player(there are many, like me :).
I used to hate DDs, mostly because of the etemp problem; all i would use
in the beginning would be CA to get a kill, then hop into AS and take.
Then they fixed the DD etemp thing, and i've used almost nothing else since.
>> I am fairly strong in my beliefs, but in the end all is just
>> opinion. How can one prove anything in the world of netrek?
>You really can't. I'll stick by my guns that for 85% of the time, the DD
>is NOT the ship to use.
Correction: is NOT the ship _you_ will use.
5150
5150
> In a DD scouts are troublesome, but really, a scout ogger? If
>the target isn't damaged, or a DD/sc, I don't think so.
You should really try it. Makes SCs less troublesome. Of course, i wouldn't
ogg Spaceace!'s CA in an SC, but the average motel, sure.
>If I had to choose one ship to have for
>the whole game, I would take the DD.n
I'd have a hard time deciding between CA and DD. It would depend on the
game and the opposition.
5150
Joseph E. Beck
m...@cis.ohio-state.edu (Michael Moore) writes:
> You guys seem to think the DD is worse off for being good at
> everything and excellent at nothing, but I find it to be my greatest
> asset. The DD can do most everything.
>I have the speed I need to get places,
Yes, slightly faster than a CA.
> the fuel and firepower to defend planets, escort, and control
> space.
Yes, the fire power of a SC.
> And I have the ability to carry five armies. High-quality games
> evolve rapidly,
Hmmm...how many times in good games are 5 armies sitting around?
That's when Warsong finally convinced me that SC's were cool. If
there are 5 armies frequently lying around (being able to pick these
up being the only advantage of the DD) then the game is probably not
very clued and it doesn't matter which ship you use.
> you can't always know which aspect of the game you'll
> be called upon to perform ahead of time.
Funny, I usually do. I look around for armies to bomb, SC or CA or AS
(a good mix prevents people from scumming kills of you as easily).
To escort/scum kills: CA. Ogging: SC if they're in DD's or clueless
(these often overlap), CA's otherwise. Taking: SC, or AS if we've
saved 5 armies for a push at an AGRI.
> This stuff about scouts being better dogfighters than DDs is,
> as far as I have seen, totally wrong. Not just when I went out hunting
> down people to dogfight in DD vs. Scout, but in everyday games where
> I come up against a scout. I always smack myself upside the head when
> I let a scout out dogfight me, simply because it happens so rarely.
Just curious, who did you fight? You entered the dogfighting
tournament and did pretty well, were the SC of equal quality? In
standard games I tend to blow away DD's when I'm in a SC, but I don't
draw conclusions from it since most DD players tend to suck.
> The scout is great for endgame, and scoutbombing, and things were
> speed is essential. She is not good for dogfighting (despite popular
> belief) nor is she good for escorting or ogging (she can make do but you'd
> rather have a DD in these situations, or better yet a CA).
I don't have problems ogging a DD in a SC. CA's can't rundown DD's so
they don't work too well.
> The CA is good for space control, escorting, ogging, and dogfighting.
And of course, bombing.
>
> The DD is good at all of the above, but to a lesser degree. But
> the universialtiy (catholicism?) of it is what people should exploit to
> use it effectively. And when you get right down to she has her place
> in netrek as much as any other ship(and if not more so -- the mid-game,
> while not the longest, is probably the most important part of the game,
> and that is where the DD is most usefull) as any other ship.
Only if you don't know what you're going to do. Personally, my ships
don't last too long so I take a SC or CA depending on what I want to
do. If you have no idea as to what's going on I'd rather guess and
take a SC or CA than take a ship that's ok at everything.
> I am fairly strong in my beliefs, but in the end all is just
> opinion. How can one prove anything in the world of netrek?
By arguing for hundreds of posts until the other side gives up.
joe
Purple haze
Lamb, Leg Of
Gregory D Dearing
> In a DD scouts are troublesome, but really, a scout ogger? If
>the target isn't damaged, or a DD/sc, I don't think so.
That's one of the reasons they -are- effective; most people don't
consider them a real threat. Combine this with their high speed
and their ability to hit deep in enemy space...What you get is
often total suprise and the subsequent death of the target.
I usually only use this when I already happen to be in a scout, but
it's produced great results in INL and Clue games. Of course,
those 2 hour games do help the suprise factor some =)
> I am a CA player who switched to the DD when the cooling rate
>was changed. So I'm just as reformed, only in the opposite direction.
>The DD is very usefull for the mid-game and when you can't know ahead
>of time just what you might need to do. If used during these times it
>is the best ship to have. If I had to choose one ship to have for
>the whole game, I would take the DD.n
Ditto on every point.
--
Greg Dearing
Email: Dear...@osu.edu
Joseph E. Beck
lyo...@iastate.edu (Sun God) writes:
> Ged, I tried telling everyone about the merits of the DD a week or two ago.
> All I got was CMU players "proving" that other ships were better by
> talking.
> I always get more DI than CAs and SCs, you always get more DI than CAs and SCs,
> and, of course, we give away fewer free kills than SCs. When I switch to a
> scout, my planet rating drops by 1/3, my planet bombing goes up a little, but
> ogging also drops by 1/3. Offense stays about the same, but at the cost of
> a .85 ratio instead of 1.2...those free kills are hurting the team!
> Now, I may just suck in a Scout, but then why don't the scout players
> outplay Ged and I? We probably have less talent than some of these scout
> players, but we're in a better ship. ;-) Just let them think that SCs are
> better. Those INL scouts are just as crunchy as pick-up scouts.
Yeah....those CMU'ers don't have any idea what they're talking about.
Especially in INL games, geez, those guys can never seem to win a
game. Just because *you* suck when you play a SC compared to a DD
does not make it a better ship. How about the time required to learn
a new style of play?
Ok, now how many good players take DD's? How many take a mixture of
SC's and CA's? Most people from CMU started in DD's, since Terrence
also flew one frequently when he scummed 3rd space. But eventually
most switched to another ship type. I (and a few others) credit this
to Adrenochrome who showed what CA's were good for. So most people at
CMU have tried DD's for quite awhile, so know what they're talking
about when they blast them. And if you have any question about the
skill of the players, feel free to set up a scrimmage and see just how
crunchy the SC's are.
Brian Paulsen
)) Hell, it took me and 5150 1 sc (his) and 2 DD's (mine) to chase
)) down ZZ carrying 2 all over the galaxy. Now I realize that ZZ's
)) probably one of the best, if not the best SC player, but I didn't
)) think it'd take that long to run him down.
) I couldn't let this one pass. I'd put red Shirt, Mergatroid, Warsong,
)as better than me with no questions, and quite a few as possibly better
)than me. Thanks for the compliment, though.
Of course, FreeKill is exactly as good as you are :)
Brian
Brian Paulsen
>running away. If you have to control a part of space with a DD, you'll
>be glad to show the scout where the door is... IMHO.
I think the problem is that few people dogfight. I *will* get a kill in
my scout, and you *will* get a kill in your DD. It's so easy to scum kills,
that how good a ship can dogfight is almost meaningless.
The problem is if it's you (DD) against me (SC) and I'm carrying. You
will stop me a huge amount of times. I get a little advantage because
I can fly to another planet a lot faster than you can catch me.
However, if you are carrying, I'll kill you damn near as many times as
you got me in the previous scenario. You get a little advantage with
my slightly reduced firepower, and your ability to cloak damn near forever.
Personally, I like the speed that I get with the scout. However, if I
have 2.5 kills or more, I usually refit to a DD.
> In a DD scouts are troublesome, but really, a scout ogger? If
>the target isn't damaged, or a DD/sc, I don't think so.
Heh - watch out next time you're on bronco, bub. I know several people
will be quite happy to show you the power of a SC ogger. The fact is
that any decent planet taker has little trouble with any *one* ogger.
People know how to runner-scum pretty well. The SC is a very, very good
ship for dealing with runner-scums.
Brian
Andy McFadden
>> This is how it is right now, the difference is not that noticeable,
>>unless you actualy pay attention.
Or are chasing the guy firing the warp 16 torps.
>Whine whine whine. If you want to raise the DD's torp speed to make it
>fair, the scout should have it's torp range raised.
...and the BB will be taking more hits, so its shields should be improved...
and the CA will have to run more, so its etemp should be improved... and, of
course, with those changes, we need to fix that small DD fuel tank...
Ack foo splat. Stop.
> CA (or BB) tractors are the worst thing that can happen to a
>scout.
ObAmusement: watching a teammate chase after an SC bomber in an AS. Only
messages on the team board were from me, screaming at my teammates to take
the 2 armies I carried (as an SB) and retake Den, which was sitting at 1.
Finally the "clue word" stuff kicked in and booted a twink (same guy logged
in three times) and a clued person showed up.
I really like that feature... didn't help much that game, but at least it
kept the mega-twinks out.
>Roger
>bo...@fsunuc.physics.fsu.edu
--
fad...@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]
Brian Paulsen
>In article <cfKeikK00...@andrew.cmu.edu> ss...@andrew.cmu.edu (Sean Christopher Simmons) writes:
>>The typical SC spends most of his time bombing. He he gets a
>>kill, he may keep bombing or may pick up and drop until he's killed.
>>There is a lot less time wasted. The DD will get more DI and a better
>>ratio. The SC will win more games.
I'm willing to play on an all-scout team against any DD team who's willing
to be embarrassed when we beat them. Perhaps this Saturday? Seeing as how
all the scouts will probably be from CMU, maybe we'll try playing it a
non-CMU server to give you guys the benefit of us being lagged...
My hand-picked team will include (if they consent to play):
FreeKill
ZZnewGuy
Red Shirt
Warsong
Mergatroid
sunscreamer
SpaceAce!
pyscho bomber
Balton
Helix
Given that some of these probably won't be able to appear, I'm very willing
to accept others on the all-scout team. Also, if we have extras, we'd
probably be able to make lots of substitutions.
Brian
Felix S. Gallo
> In a DD scouts are troublesome, but really, a scout ogger? If
>the target isn't damaged, or a DD/sc, I don't think so.
Oh, for a fast X connection. Oh, for a fast X connection.
> -Michael )Ged( SB law # 6 - twinks are expendable.
rear ensign sunscreamer, fingers twitching
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Felix Sebastian Gallo rhod...@wixer.cactus.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Markiel
>
>lyo...@iastate.edu (Sun God) writes:
>> Ged, I tried telling everyone about the merits of the DD a week or two ago.
>> All I got was CMU players "proving" that other ships were better by
>> talking.
>And winning INL games.
>
>Especially in INL games, geez, those guys can never seem to win a
>game. Just because *you* suck when you play a SC compared to a DD
>does not make it a better ship. How about the time required to learn
>a new style of play?
>
reason CMU teams win in the INL is that their players have played an
average of 300 more hours than anyone else in the past year (in addition
to having great net connections to the rest of the world). As you
point out yourself below, better players will probably win regardless
of ship choice. I think it safe to say that the CMU players being
discussed here are way up at the top of the skill level. It doesn't
necessarily follow that the ships they use are the best: they could
just be really good at that particular ship.
> And if you have any question about the
>skill of the players, feel free to set up a scrimmage and see just how
>crunchy the SC's are.
>
My point.
> joe
> Purple haze
> Lamb, Leg Of
-Grey Elf
mar...@callisto.pas.rochester.edu
Andrew Markiel
>
>I'm willing to play on an all-scout team against any DD team who's willing
>to be embarrassed when we beat them. Perhaps this Saturday? Seeing as how
>all the scouts will probably be from CMU, maybe we'll try playing it a
>non-CMU server to give you guys the benefit of us being lagged...
>
>My hand-picked team will include (if they consent to play):
>FreeKill
>ZZnewGuy
>Red Shirt
>Warsong
>Mergatroid
>sunscreamer
>SpaceAce!
>pyscho bomber
>Balton
>Helix
>
hand-picked most of the best netrek players anywhere, I'd pick them
to win no matter what ships were used.
Great scouts beat up all ships.
>
>Brian
-Grey Elf
mar...@callisto.pas.rochester.edu
Michael Moore
>DD
>Yes, the fire power of a SC.
>
Better firepower than a scout. The scout's advantage is in
torp speed, not firepower.
>Hmmm...how many times in good games are 5 armies sitting around?
>That's when Warsong finally convinced me that SC's were cool. If
>there are 5 armies frequently lying around (being able to pick these
>up being the only advantage of the DD) then the game is probably not
>very clued and it doesn't matter which ship you use.
>
Quite often in a good game there will be three or four armies
to be picked up. I pick my two up from a planet just like the scout,
but if a pop should occurr and I am in reasonable distance, I can
use them if I have multiple kills. This happens quite often in any
game. In the mid-game there are just too many planets to be covered
by scoutbombers. Not to mention that planets near the front are
heavily trafficed.
>> you can't always know which aspect of the game you'll
>> be called upon to perform ahead of time.
>Funny, I usually do. I look around for armies to bomb, SC or CA or AS
>(a good mix prevents people from scumming kills of you as easily).
>To escort/scum kills: CA. Ogging: SC if they're in DD's or clueless
>(these often overlap), CA's otherwise. Taking: SC, or AS if we've
>saved 5 armies for a push at an AGRI.
>
Funny, I usually don't. I sometimes make up my mind when I die
what it is I want to do, but often I am not sure. Will I need to ogg
someone who picks up, or escort someone who just got a kill and is
trying to take, or defend a piece of space, or ogg the sb.... most
of this is decided not before you come in, but after...
>> This stuff about scouts being better dogfighters than DDs is,
>> as far as I have seen, totally wrong. Not just when I went out hunting
>> down people to dogfight in DD vs. Scout, but in everyday games where
>> I come up against a scout. I always smack myself upside the head when
>> I let a scout out dogfight me, simply because it happens so rarely.
>Just curious, who did you fight? You entered the dogfighting
>tournament and did pretty well, were the SC of equal quality? In
>standard games I tend to blow away DD's when I'm in a SC, but I don't
>draw conclusions from it since most DD players tend to suck.
>
No scouts fought in the final round of the tourney.
I fought Mergatroid, FillInTheBlank, and about four others. I
did OK in the dogfight tourney, though in the final round I sucked. I did
fly CAs, when everyone else was flying BBs, but I still think the CA is
better (see how stubborn I am)....
-Michael )Ged(
Michael Moore
>
>Ok, now how many good players take DD's? How many take a mixture of
>SC's and CA's? Most people from CMU started in DD's, since Terrence
>also flew one frequently when he scummed 3rd space. But eventually
>most switched to another ship type. I (and a few others) credit this
>to Adrenochrome who showed what CA's were good for. So most people at
>CMU have tried DD's for quite awhile, so know what they're talking
>about when they blast them. And if you have any question about the
>skill of the players, feel free to set up a scrimmage and see just how
>crunchy the SC's are.
>
There have been many revolutions of the game. Scoutbombing
was virtually unheard of two years ago, three years ago ogging was just
beginning its reign.
And before these "revolutions", do you think everyone was doing
it? NO! It wouldn't have been a dramatic change if they had been. And
once everyone saw how good it was, they started to take advantage of it.
So I say you guys aren't giving the DD the proper respect, it is a very
deadly ship during the mid-game. Problem is there aren't that many good
DD players out there because most of the best players are using
something else. This fact does not prove they are correct, though for
some reason everybody seems to think it does.
I'll skip all the CMU arrogance you so blatantly plaster all
over your posts.... a thing can be wrong even if everyone believes
it is right.
-Michael )Ged(
Herbert Enderton
>DDs. However, in spite of his reputation, bav almost entirely gave up
>DDs when he quit playing on Chaos, and even Hell Peacock has been forced
>best players in the game all treat a ship with scorn, why do people not
>pay attention? Do Ged and Weenie Blaster know the game better than
>Spaceace and Red Shirt?
>
I am not scornful of destroyers, and I doubt Spaceace is either. Ask
instead whether Ged knows the game better than woof, Purple Haze, or
yourself; I'd say the answer is "yes." (I don't know about Weenie
Blaster; I can never keep all those lyodavs straight.)
I play destroyers a lot these days, but haven't tried them in INL
games. In pick-up games there are always some twinks, and I can scum a
kill off a twink in a destroyer much more easily than I can in a scout.
They don't have to be total newbies, just bad enough that I can hit
them with some undetted torps and they don't phaser me too much.
For ogging, I find a destroyer better than a cruiser or a scout: if
I'm a cruiser the carrier can elude me, and if I'm a scout I might not
be able to do much to him when I catch him (unless he's really bad).
This applies especially to ogging carriers in their own backfield. See
Hell Peacock's notes on the "Fool's Ogg" in playing-dd-alt in the
archives.
-- Red Shirt
Brian Paulsen
>In article <105...@netnews.upenn.edu> pau...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Paulsen) writes:
>>My hand-picked team will include (if they consent to play):
>>FreeKill
>>ZZnewGuy
>>Red Shirt
>>Warsong
>>Mergatroid
>>sunscreamer
>>SpaceAce!
>>pyscho bomber
>>Balton
>>Helix
>I suspect this game won't be very interesting, because since you've
>hand-picked most of the best netrek players anywhere, I'd pick them
>to win no matter what ships were used.
True. But I also left a big handful of extremely clued players out of
the list. I put SpaceAce! into the list because he believed that SC's
are better than DD's, but I'd be willing to take him out (just haven't
seen you that often in a SC, Rob - but I'm willing to bet you're damn
good at it)
If I put together a team that would go against it...
Stilleto
Duck Dodgers
Hell Peacock
Ged
Yea Boy!
Ryche
Mojo
would be in the top of the list. I think I could list a lot of people who
could play a very close game with the team I listed. However, I would make
sure that your hand-picked team has a good number of hours as DD's...
Brian
Justin Botelle
)
) And don't go acting like you were the only one. Not a single
)admiral that I recall thought the captains could do it... at best the
Then you have a poor memory.
)super-clue said they didn't know. I took a lot of heat for it, but
)I'm taking a lot of heat now...
)
))) 200 DI and half a brain is as much a menace as all these four-digit
))) DI players.
didn't the SINL Angry men have half a brain and 200 DI, and they did not
do too well. join the Spring INL, Mike.
) -Michael )Ged(
Justin
Justin Botelle
)In article <0fK=xgu00Vp...@andrew.cmu.edu) ss...@andrew.cmu.edu (Sean Christopher Simmons) writes:
)
))) Hell, it took me and 5150 1 sc (his) and 2 DD's (mine) to chase
))) down ZZ carrying 2 all over the galaxy. Now I realize that ZZ's
))) probably one of the best, if not the best SC player, but I didn't
))) think it'd take that long to run him down.
)
)) I couldn't let this one pass. I'd put red Shirt, Mergatroid, Warsong,
))as better than me with no questions, and quite a few as possibly better
))than me. Thanks for the compliment, though.
)
)Of course, FreeKill is exactly as good as you are :)
Now, Brian, you've forgotten, we're "head and shoulders" below *everyone* from
CMU.
)
)Brian
Justin
Michael Moore
>In article <1jete...@hadrosaur.cis.ohio-state.edu) m...@cis.ohio-state.edu (Michael Moore) writes:
>)
>) And don't go acting like you were the only one. Not a single
>)admiral that I recall thought the captains could do it... at best the
>
>Then you have a poor memory.
Perhaps one or two... you get my point.
>
>didn't the SINL Angry men have half a brain and 200 DI, and they did not
>do too well. join the Spring INL, Mike.
>
Most didn't have over 200 di..... all had at least half
a brain. And we did extremely well, thankyouverymuch.
-Michael )the ever verbose Ged(
Robert Hill
>
>
> DI is important only when the scales are balanced. And there
> are things which do not give DI, like escorting... or maybe you are
> having a bad day. But when you bomb, and when you ogg, and when you
> take planets it shows something.
> I must confess, however, that my case-in-point would not
> stand up to scientific methedology (sp?), since 1 hour is hardly
> enough time to be sure of anything.
> But in my experience it is true over time, in the INL games
> I have played in, and when I play in good pickup/clue games. Always
> I use the DD, and always my stats are fairly evenly distributed and
> fairly high.
Jeez...ged...learn the point: stats are meaningless in the short run.
> If I live in my DD, or I kill an ogger, or just generally get
> another kill while carrying my two, I am immediately available to pick
> up more. This is a strength the SC doesn't have, and it happens
> frequently enough (at least for me) that it turns into a big win for
> the DD over the scout in planet taking.
No offense, but how much INL experience do you have? I know you played
with the angry men, but I rarely see effective use of a DD in an INL game.
The reason is that they aren't as effective for general purpose duty.
> It is easier to get a kill in a CA, but it isn't THAT much
> easier. And then you both have kills, but the DD is faster and can
> carry as much as you, so the only problem is living through oggs. And
> the DD loses some here (but not enough to nullify its use, I think).
> And when it comes to faking for one planet and going for another, only
> the scout is better at it. And that is why I think the DD is a better
> planet taker in the mid-game than the CA, in general. If there is
> heavy ogging, however, the CA might be the safer bet.
Ok...scumming a kill in a DD isn't THAT much easier than in a SC. And
when....[...deleted....]
> >you are a good DD player, and a shitty scout(cruiser), this may be true
uh...that didn't come out right...I didn't mean to imply you weren't good
in a scout or a cruiser. You can certainly dogfight in a CA...I never see
you in a scout...
> I am at home in the CA and I am good enough in the scout. I
> use them all a lot, but the DD a little more. I have played the CA
> more than any other ship, but when the cooling came I started using the
> DD as they were meant to be used, and since then I play them more than
> the CA.
I agree...the cooling made the DD a viable option. That's why I pushed
for the change. I'm glad DD's are useful (I use them whenever I feel like
it, or feel it is best).
> Fuck weasling out. I just refuse to be refuted based solely
> on the fact that all the CMU Admirals disagree with me. I made my point
> long time ago....
rightfully so. You still haven't explained the fact that most "good" DD
players have switched to CA's or SC's.
> Look, all I am saying is that the DD is the best ship for the
> mid-game. I am not so sure the CA is the general purpose ship, but I
> haven't decided for sure yet......
I understand what you are saying. I disagree. Such is life. It doesn't
much matter, methinks.
> Well it seems among the cluefull circles I am the minority. But
> I was with the SB debate too. Cheh-CHING.
Well....i'll let that debate slide....for NOW.
> My point was made a long time ago. Now I am simply defending
> my stance against senseless assertions like "Since all the admirals
> believe it it must be right".
Sure, sure.... Sounds like weasling to me...
> My sub-point here is that it is once again a case of my having a
> minority opinion. I am trying to say that just because you are in
> the minority doesn't mean you are wrong. It isn't a flame, unless you
> are overly defensive about being wrong.
Ged, when haven't you started a flame war? Have you *ever* posted to a
newsgroup without prompting one?
> And don't go acting like you were the only one. Not a single
> admiral that I recall thought the captains could do it... at best the
> super-clue said they didn't know. I took a lot of heat for it, but
> I'm taking a lot of heat now...
You took a lot of heat for it...sure. How many other comments have you
made about SBing though? God, can anyone count that high? The MUCUS PIG
debate? Jeez...
> Well, ok. I was too strong there, what I mean is that you
> have to watch out for them just as much as for the admirals. Your
> chances of taking a planet under them is only slightly better than
> under a battle-worn rough-and-tumble grizzled INL veteran. Same
> with ogging, same with being ogged, same with everything.
You watch out for captains as much as you do rear admirals? I'm not so
surprised...
> But you probably still disagree with me.... :)
'fraid so...:-)
Herbert Enderton writes
> I am not scornful of destroyers, and I doubt Spaceace is either. Ask
> instead whether Ged knows the game better than woof, Purple Haze, or
> yourself; I'd say the answer is "yes." (I don't know about Weenie
> Blaster; I can never keep all those lyodavs straight.)
I'm not "scornful" of DD's. I love them. Unfortunately, they are not an
optimal ship to play for me. For some people they are...most (I would
guess) are not.
> I play destroyers a lot these days, but haven't tried them in INL
> games. In pick-up games there are always some twinks, and I can scum a
> kill off a twink in a destroyer much more easily than I can in a scout.
> They don't have to be total newbies, just bad enough that I can hit
> them with some undetted torps and they don't phaser me too much.
I'm sure DD's would do fine in INL games. I've used them and they do work
will for certain roles. I'd never use one as a general purpose ship,
however.
> For ogging, I find a destroyer better than a cruiser or a scout: if
> I'm a cruiser the carrier can elude me, and if I'm a scout I might not
> be able to do much to him when I catch him (unless he's really bad).
DD's can't phaser worth bull. This is their major ogging drawback. I
like using DD's to ogg scouts and DD's. I rarely ogg CA's in DD's and I
wouldn't try an AS or BB if I had my choice.
Rob
aka Spaceace!
Scott Herod
>to be embarrassed when we beat them. Perhaps this Saturday? Seeing as how
>all the scouts will probably be from CMU, maybe we'll try playing it a
>non-CMU server to give you guys the benefit of us being lagged...
>
>My hand-picked team will include (if they consent to play):
>FreeKill
>ZZnewGuy
>Red Shirt
>Warsong
>Mergatroid
>sunscreamer
>SpaceAce!
>pyscho bomber
>Balton
>Helix
>
>Given that some of these probably won't be able to appear, I'm very willing
>to accept others on the all-scout team. Also, if we have extras, we'd
>probably be able to make lots of substitutions.
>
>Brian
With that team you could all be in one of those one shot newbie ships
and you would still win.
Mad DDogg
P.S. Of course I want comment about my favorite ship.
have clue, will travel
bot...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Justin Botelle) writes:
>pau...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Paulsen) writes:
>)Of course, FreeKill is exactly as good as you are :)
>Now, Brian, you've forgotten, we're "head and shoulders" below *everyone*
>from CMU.
Just to clear up the pecking order...
CMU is head and shoulders above UPENN. UPenn is thus the collarbone or ribs.
BERKELEY is somewhere around the neck, ears or collarbone compared to CMU,
according to various reports.
KSU occupies the left arm (for those out-in-left-field chaos servers), and
controls the hips for hockey checks.
IASTATE controls the hands, although the left one rarely knows what the right
one is doing.
USC occupies the liver + intestines. It may be functional, but the lagggggggg
implies that it'll pass your packets when it's damn good and ready.
WASHINGTON is the back, as people love to walk over sturgeonites.
MIT sits on the spinal column, although rumors of spina bifida persist.
UTEXAS has to be the spleen, as very few people are sure just WHAT the hell
was happening there when the chaos servers were up.
ULOWELL, TORONTO, MSU, UMD, and others are spread throughout various other
portions of the mid-to-lower body. assign bodily functions yourself, I'm
not THAT hooked on a flamewar. ;)
okay, who'd I miss? :)
smiley-captioned for the humor-impaired.
--Lt. Cmdr. Nixon's Colon, NCSU
--"Speaking of head & shoulders... NCSU, of course,
is the dandruff of the netrek world."
--
jec...@eos.ncsu.edu \\ po...@aza.csc.ncsu.edu
"I don't know where you took --=-- To KLH: Love ya, Katya!
me, but I didn't want to leave." \\ have clue, will travel.
---------------------------------------------------
Scott Herod
>
>ObAmusement: watching a teammate chase after an SC bomber in an AS. Only
>messages on the team board were from me, screaming at my teammates to take
>the 2 armies I carried (as an SB) and retake Den, which was sitting at 1.
>Finally the "clue word" stuff kicked in and booted a twink (same guy logged
>in three times) and a clued person showed up.
>
>I really like that feature... didn't help much that game, but at least it
>kept the mega-twinks out.
>
>
>fad...@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
>[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]
I think I was in this game. I love the way your teammates were firing
torps over your base. It almost made ogging too easy. By the way what
ever happened? I got ghostbusted.
Mad DDogg
P.S. How does one spell "Muahaha" ?
5150
>Just to clear up the pecking order...
>CMU is head and shoulders above UPENN. UPenn is thus the collarbone or ribs.
>BERKELEY is somewhere around the neck, ears or collarbone compared to CMU,
> according to various reports.
Berkeley is actually the tounge.
>KSU occupies the left arm (for those out-in-left-field chaos servers), and
> controls the hips for hockey checks.
>IASTATE controls the hands, although the left one rarely knows what the right
> one is doing.
>USC occupies the liver + intestines. It may be functional, but the lagggggggg
> implies that it'll pass your packets when it's damn good and ready.
We're getting a laxative, don't you worry.
>WASHINGTON is the back, as people love to walk over sturgeonites.
>MIT sits on the spinal column, although rumors of spina bifida persist.
>UTEXAS has to be the spleen, as very few people are sure just WHAT the hell
> was happening there when the chaos servers were up.
>ULOWELL, TORONTO, MSU, UMD, and others are spread throughout various other
> portions of the mid-to-lower body. assign bodily functions yourself, I'm
> not THAT hooked on a flamewar. ;)
ULowell gets my vote for kidneys, UToronto for lymph system, MSU for
appendix, and UMD is the bladder.
>okay, who'd I miss? :)
UCI and CalTech are the knees.
>smiley-captioned for the humor-impaired.
Oh, stop that. Let them be offended.
> --Lt. Cmdr. Nixon's Colon, NCSU
> --"Speaking of head & shoulders... NCSU, of course,
> is the dandruff of the netrek world."
Does this make UNCC the hair?
5150
reader: use your imagination
Michael Moore
guess I always want the last word??? I don't know... but I do know
this is all reaching the point of stupidity, and I would be the
bigger fool for continuing it....
So I'll shut the hell up now (and if any of you post something
to the effect of "Thank GOD!!!!!" or "Finally!!!!", I'll smack you).
See you on the servers!
-Michael )Ged( SB law # 8 - LPS escorting rarely works, but you
should try anyway.
Andy McFadden
>I think I was in this game.
Yup.
> I love the way your teammates were firing
>torps over your base.
What I couldn't understand was how they managed to fire over me and then
explode on top of me after neatly missing all of the incoming oggers. Talent
waiting to be discovered. Blowing my wtemp made it a real quick trip.
> By the way what
>ever happened?
I sat in a base between Ear and Alt for about 30 minutes. Your team twinked
out (or is it "twinked up"? The act of the ranks swelling out with twinks...)
I suppose I should call them "newbies", but many of them new how to carry.
Few of them knew how to take a planet under a starbase firing plasmas at them,
which brought us back to 5 planets when I left. (Finally got a clued player
on my team... thanks Fe.)
Anybody ever Chung a starbase?
Brian Paulsen
>I'm sure DD's would do fine in INL games. I've used them and they do work
>will for certain roles. I'd never use one as a general purpose ship,
>however.
I would agree. I've seen SpaceAce! and Yea Boy!!!!! use them effectively
against TWNN and I've used DD's against them. The trick is that most of the
time, we go to the front, grab our kills fast in a CA and then refit.
Unless you've fairly mastered scumming kills, or you have fellow teammates
leaving you kills, you just ain't gonna get kills in a DD against skilled
opponents.
If you find that you can quickly scum 2 kills in a DD against the most
skilled opponents, then I would agree that the DD is a near ideal ship.
I typically find that either I can only find one person to scum a kill off
of, or there's only a couple armies to pick up, so the SC is more to my
fashion.
In pickup games, DD's are fine because you can always find the twink to give
you the kills you need. Hell, in pickup games, you can probably play an
AS all the time if you are only going to planet scum.
>> For ogging, I find a destroyer better than a cruiser or a scout: if
>> I'm a cruiser the carrier can elude me, and if I'm a scout I might not
>> be able to do much to him when I catch him (unless he's really bad).
Over the summer, I found that a lot of SINL teams were ogging with DD's.
I wasn't a noted planet scum at the time, and would average near 15-18
planets a game. DD's are my third choice for ogging ships. SC's have
an advantage of being able to get by escorts and to follow the enemy
anywhere. CA's have the advantage of being able to kill an escort and
still being left with enough fuel to kill the carrier. DD's are wimps.
>DD's can't phaser worth bull. This is their major ogging drawback. I
>like using DD's to ogg scouts and DD's. I rarely ogg CA's in DD's and I
>wouldn't try an AS or BB if I had my choice.
Brian
Brian Paulsen
Heh. I've picked what I consider the best SC players out there - and I'm
sure I've forgotten a few (sorry for any offense). I'm more than sure that
we could beat the best DD team out there. The problem is that it's pretty
damn hard to list the best DD team out there because damn near all the
people that I considered clued don't really play the DD as a ship of
choice.
If anybody wants to play the Scout Team of Death, just try to put together
a DD team... :)
Brian
Felix S. Gallo
>pau...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Paulsen) writes:
>>
>>I'm willing to play on an all-scout team against any DD team who's willing
>>to be embarrassed when we beat them. Perhaps this Saturday? Seeing as how
>>all the scouts will probably be from CMU, maybe we'll try playing it a
>>non-CMU server to give you guys the benefit of us being lagged...
>>
>>My hand-picked team will include (if they consent to play):
>>FreeKill
>>ZZnewGuy
>>Red Shirt
>>Warsong
>>Mergatroid
>>sunscreamer
And wouldn't it be great if we brought BEER?
>>SpaceAce!
>>pyscho bomber
>>Balton
>>Helix
>>
So after I recovered from the shock of being mentioned in a list of good
netrek players even though I haven't had an X terminal I can effectively
use for over five months,
>I suspect this game won't be very interesting, because since you've
>hand-picked most of the best netrek players anywhere,
Andrew hands out THIS line.
> I'd pick them
>to win no matter what ships were used.
>
>Great scouts beat up all ships.
Ahem.
Look.
I've obviously been away at my real job for too long. Let me explain
something that you folks have apparently forgotten.
Arguments about netrek ships are not won by presenting a list of players
who have been rumored to be able to play those ships.
Arguments about netrek ships are not won by logical, reasoned discourse
or the presentation of considered rhetoric. No, no.
ARGUMENTS ABOUT NETREK SHIPS ARE WON BY THE CAPS LOCK KEY AND THE PERSON
WHO HUMILIATES HIS OPPONENTS THE BEST.
All you monocephalic TROGLODYTES who hold the mistaken "belief" that
destroyers are IN ANY WAY USEFUL are DEPRAVED, PUSTULENT LUNATICS WHO
WOULDN'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY NETREK IF THE SCOUT TEAM MENTIONED ABOVE
SPELLED IT OUT FOR YOU IN THIRD SPACE. YOU CROONING, CLEFT-PALATED
WORMS, YOU MISERABLE CHUNKS OF OFFAL, YOU ACCURSED WRETCHES TWITCHING
EPILEPTICALLY IN A PUDDLE OF YOUR OWN EXCRETIONS: I PRONOUNCE YOU HEXED,
DEAD ON ARRIVAL, NULL AND VOID, SPENT, and MARKED FOR DEATH. Thee and
thine will know only the SUFFERING that IGNORANCE and FUTILITY bring.
You simpering, cowering REPUBLICANS. You couldn't find your TONGUE with
your TEETH.
The last person to fly a destroyer against me was EXODUS. I WEAR HIS
FLESH AS A COAT. NEXT!
>-Grey Elf
>mar...@callisto.pas.rochester.edu
rear ensign sunscreamer in effect
minister of playing only the newsgroup part of the game
Erik Lauer
> The scout is great for endgame, and scoutbombing, and things were
>speed is essential. She is not good for dogfighting (despite popular
>belief) nor is she good for escorting or ogging (she can make do but you'd
>rather have a DD in these situations, or better yet a CA).
>
> The CA is good for space control, escorting, ogging, and dogfighting.
>
> The DD is good at all of the above, but to a lesser degree. But
>the universialtiy (catholicism?) of it is what people should exploit to
>use it effectively. And when you get right down to she has her place
>in netrek as much as any other ship(and if not more so -- the mid-game,
>while not the longest, is probably the most important part of the game,
>and that is where the DD is most usefull) as any other ship.
>
> I am fairly strong in my beliefs, but in the end all is just
>opinion. How can one prove anything in the world of netrek?
>
> -Michael )Ged( (SB law # 4 - Pelters should be shot on site.)
How about a game between all CA and all DD on inl.ksu.edu? You can put
together the DD team.
> And really, wherefor all this arrogance? I think anyone with
>200 DI and half a brain is as much a menace as all these four-digit
>DI players.
>
> And related to this, Spaceace is arguably the best in the game,
>but really, there isn't much difference between him and the other
>greats. There are scores of players who are just as effectively
>dangerous as he is in a game.... i.e. the edge that spaceace has over
>the others is slight at best and rather insignificant overall.
Good. Then the team composition should not make to much of a difference
to you.
Erik
---=
Sean Christopher Simmons
throug.. Roger Bo...@fsunuc.physi (1402)
> A scout is the best dogfighter in the
> game, when you have absolutely no lag. You can't touch a scout with torps,
> when it has no lag.
Who needs torps?
"The lines are better than the dots, but they don't go as far, so
sometimes you have to use the dots." -- Drewski's first law of netrek
"Drop shields. Det"
ZZnew guy
Sean Christopher Simmons
> I always move in my DD with the first kill. I do just want the
> scout does (only slower). And if I manage to snag another kill somewhere
> down the line (like I don't die dropping my two), I can start inflicting
> even more damage. I think this is a key point of using the DD.
So let me understand this. . . you spend most of the game playing an
inferior ship so that *IF* the chance comes up, you can carry more
armies. I can see why the only list of top players that you make is
your own.
> > Of the players for SS, GB, XG, and TWNN, 2 are well known for using
> >DDs. However, in spite of his reputation, bav almost entirely gave up
> >DDs when he quit playing on Chaos, and even Hell Peacock has been forced
> >to use other ships more and more. There is a reason for this. When the
> >best players in the game all treat a ship with scorn, why do people not
> >pay attention? Do Ged and Weenie Blaster know the game better than
> >Spaceace and Red Shirt?
> >
> Well, excuuuuuuuuuse me for not bowing to peer pressure. I suppose
> I should be cowed into submission for daring to have opinions which differ
> with the obviously superior players in the game.
You know, I had the same attitude after Spaceace first posted his "ship
of lose" article. I spent the next 2-3 months using almost solely DDs.
It was probably the biggest slump I've been in.
> It is true it says something, but then most of you are from CMU,
> and I find there is a certain bias there.
Nothing like avoiding the issue at hand to start some CMU bashing, eh?
For your information, half of the people, and teams that I listed were
non-CMU. All of them were the best in the game. I'm sorry if a lot of
good players come from CMU. I know that I lot of them don't, and I
think that my article showed that. If you want to argue about CMU
arrogance, please start a new header.
> Also, call Ged arrogant, but I think I know the game as well as
> they do. We just have different opinions. Or perhaps revelation comes
> suddenly at 3000 DI??? Well, I'm afraid I am a thousand short.
We know we know. There's a CMU conspirisy to keep the world from
knowing that you're as good in a base as Balton and MUCUS PIG can't Ogg
you. The only reason that the world doesn't know that you're the best
player is because of a CMU media block. The aliens are in on it too.
> Besides, most of the folks at CMU thought 6 captains couldn't
> toast a top-notch SB, and while that was never proven (in netrek you
> can't really prove anything, as I've said), it was demonstrated quite
> strongly that they could. And it was the captains who were right, not
> the Admirals.
Craig has offered. I haven't seen anyone organize the Captain's team.
> And really, wherefor all this arrogance? I think anyone with
> 200 DI and half a brain is as much a menace as all these four-digit
> DI players.
And I think that your typical YMCA boxer can take on Riddeck Bowe. All
those hours of practice are totally worthless.
> -Michael )Ged( SB law # 7 - if more than three get through at once,
> kiss your ass goodbye.
XG vs GB: 5 man surprize Ogg of Balton, plus one bomber for Rom and
one for Dra. Net Result -- 6 armies bombed. Ged is the best.
"Drop shields. Det."
ZZnew guy
lnk...@cayley.uwaterloo.ca
>>pau...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Paulsen) writes:
>>)Of course, FreeKill is exactly as good as you are :)
>
>>Now, Brian, you've forgotten, we're "head and shoulders" below *everyone*
>>from CMU.
>
>Just to clear up the pecking order...
>
>
>ULOWELL, TORONTO, MSU, UMD, and others are spread throughout various other
> portions of the mid-to-lower body. assign bodily functions yourself, I'm
> not THAT hooked on a flamewar. ;)
>
at the "bottom" of the body; instead it is where you'll most likely get
frost bites.... Man it's freaking cold here!
-Keith "COLD" (really, I mean "COLD"!)
aka Killer at garnet.cdf
Sean Christopher Simmons
> I don't think so. YOU will win more games. The typical SC will not. All
> the typical SC will do is bomb and harass the opposition. The typical DD
> will try to take more since it has a larger army capacity. I believe the
> typical escort will be more willing to clear for a DD than a SC, even tho
> the DD only has 20 more points of damage capacity than the SC. Granted, the
> SC can get in there w/o really needing an escort. But we're talking about
> the 'typical' players here.
Call it as you see it. I'd much rather have a team-mate who will bomb
and harras and drop armies without escort than one who spends is time
scumming kills because he's more likely to get escort if he carries more
armies. Your mileage may vary, I guess.
> Such unscrupulous namedropping, Hugh. If the best players treat a ship with
> scorn, all the more reason i use it and ogg the crap out of them (unless they
> are in a SC).
The namedropping is the whole POINT. There just aren't that calibur of
DD players.
Further, if you can't Ogg a SC with a DD, doesn't that just support
what I'm saying?
Jonathan Hardwick
> All you monocephalic TROGLODYTES who hold the mistaken "belief" that
> destroyers are IN ANY WAY USEFUL are DEPRAVED, PUSTULENT LUNATICS WHO
> WOULDN'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY NETREK IF THE SCOUT TEAM MENTIONED ABOVE
> SPELLED IT OUT FOR YOU IN THIRD SPACE. YOU CROONING, CLEFT-PALATED
> WORMS, YOU MISERABLE CHUNKS OF OFFAL, YOU ACCURSED WRETCHES TWITCHING
> EPILEPTICALLY IN A PUDDLE OF YOUR OWN EXCRETIONS: I PRONOUNCE YOU HEXED,
> DEAD ON ARRIVAL, NULL AND VOID, SPENT, and MARKED FOR DEATH. Thee and
> thine will know only the SUFFERING that IGNORANCE and FUTILITY bring.
> You simpering, cowering REPUBLICANS. You couldn't find your TONGUE with
> your TEETH.
>
> The last person to fly a destroyer against me was EXODUS. I WEAR HIS
> FLESH AS A COAT. NEXT!
He's baaaaaaack. Not an all-time classic post, but definitely
limbering up and looking in good shape for the oncoming season.
Thank god. I was getting withdrawal symptoms.
Jonathan H., j...@cs.cmu.edu Keeper Of The Netrek Archives
Access for the masses : anonymous FTP to gs69.sp.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.206.167).
If you have AFS, look in /afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/jch/netrek. If you have WAIS,
use the netrek-ftp database, available on port 6000 of gourd.srv.cs.cmu.edu.
Danny
> Of course, for maximum lag I use an SC and scoutbomb, staying away from
>other players unless guarding worlds I want to bomb. Then I lock on,
>maxwarp, shield, cloak, and start hitting the bomb key just before the
>world comes on the tactical. [still no UDP :(]
Yep! Maxwarp, hit cloak, pray the packet doesn't get lost, and start hitting
bomb an inch and a half out. If there's any defense don't even bother about
trying to get away alive just keep bombing and make sure of the armies (*),
otherwise leave the planet as soon as you arrive :)
No UDP? You poor soul. I wouldn't think it's physically possible to play
lagged without UDP! I know CMU beat Reed with 2 updates/sec and TCP, but
I don't know how. Apparently they used BBs...
ICMP Redirect - SC bomber with lag
danny - best base in the Southern Hemisphere
(*) My ratio on bronco is going to go < .1 soon :-)
sl...@cc.usu.edu
> okay, who'd I miss? :)
>
Hey! You forgot USU, were the little callouses that develop on the
feet! (we WILL have an INL team...really)
-Lynx
Brandon
(no, I am serious, really)
Jaye Mathisen
My intention of the original posting was just to point out how radically the
game can change for the player (myself) when just playing SC's. Back in the
action in a hell of a hurry, it makes for a much faster game. I was
losing more 1-on-1 confrontations, but usually just after I dropped 2 armies
somewhere. Boom, in just a few seconds, back in the action.
When playing a DD, I find that I tend to play more cautious, going for the
2+ kills so I can carry enough armies to really take, rather than getting
into the thick of things.
Nowhere in the original post did I try to restart the SC vs DD debate, in
fact, i stayed out of that whole can o' worms when it originally came
up, other than a reply to a posting from Ged.
I flew Sc's all the time when bombing, and playing for an INL team to
SC bomb, no question of it's superiority there. But I never tried to
use the SC as the "main" ship before, and that's what I was commenting on.
>For ogging, I find a destroyer better than a cruiser or a scout: if
>I'm a cruiser the carrier can elude me, and if I'm a scout I might not
>be able to do much to him when I catch him (unless he's really bad).
>This applies especially to ogging carriers in their own backfield. See
>Hell Peacock's notes on the "Fool's Ogg" in playing-dd-alt in the
>archives.
Amen to this. I agree completely here. I don't see how you can
ogg better in a SC than a DD. I can't. I'm not a great ogger yet, but
I'm probably real close to 90% of the time the target dies (excluding the
base) with the DD. (It'd be a lot closer to 100% if I didn't get in these
stupid tailchases by uncloaking too early, or not catching them slowing
down for the turn :(.). If they don't die on the first ogg, they will on
the second run.
But whenever I try to ogg in the SC, I don't seem to do the damage and
combined explosion as the DD. Could be my ogging style, I tend to uncloak
right before the target, phaser, torps, explode, but I notice that
some of the better SC players tend to uncloak right on top, or just past
me and let me have it.
It's all a matter of taste obviously, I was just expressing that mine have
changed, at least for the short term.
--
Jaye Mathisen, COE Systems Manager (406) 994-4780
410 Roberts Hall,Dept. of Computer Science
Montana State University,Bozeman MT 59717 os...@cs.montana.edu
Jason Sung Park
scout tourney) at CMU. One team was all scouts - Red Shirt was the
captain (I don't remember if they were allowed to have AS for the
initial bombing run but I don't think they had a base) and the other
team was allowed to choose whatever ship they wanted- EEK was the
captain. I was on EEK's team.
The scouts actually led in planets for the first half hour, but we
slowly came back. We eventually won but only by two planets (11-9).
And I don't remember if we ever took anything past their front line
planets. The problem with playing against an all scout team is the
SWARM. Getting a kill was no problem at all, but holding the kill
(especially if they knew you were carrying) was very difficult. If you
survivied the first SWARM, they usually got you on the second (If you
were trying to take a planet, they usually SWARMED you atleast twice
before you even got to the planet... DAMN they're fast!!!). That and
the scarcity of out armies made it almost impossible to take any planet
past their front line. They even killed our base at IND (the base had
to worry about wtemp because the scout would come back so quickly). It
took a couple of waves but they did it.
Whoever thinks a scout can't ogg, should have played in this tourney.
Trust me... they have enough fire power to kill off almost anything...
and if they don't get you the first time, they'll probably get you the
second time around.
And if you want to know about the legitimacy of the tourney, here's a
list of players and the stats of the game (some of the player may not be
considered awesome but they are all clued.)
0: (FED) Earth 4 REPAIR FUEL FR
1: (FED) Rigel 4 FR
2: (FED) Canopus 2 FR
3: (FED) Beta Crucis 4 REPAIR FR
4: (ROM) Organia 5 FUEL FR
5: (FED) Deneb 4 AGRI FR
6: (FED) Ceti Alpha V 2 FUEL FR
7: (FED) Altair 4 FUEL FR
8: (FED) Vega 4 FR
9: (FED) Alpha Centauri 4 FUEL FR
10: (ROM) Romulus 4 REPAIR FUEL FR
11: (ROM) Eridani 4 REPAIR FUEL FR
12: (ROM) Aldeberan 4 FUEL AGRI FR
13: (ROM) Regulus 4 REPAIR FUEL FR
14: (ROM) Capella 4 FR
15: (ROM) Tauri 4 FR
16: (ROM) Draconis 4 FR
17: (ROM) Sirius 7 REPAIR FUEL FR
18: (ROM) Indi 4 REPAIR FR
19: (ROM) Hydrae 5 REPAIR FR
Planets:
IND: 0 FED: 9 ROM: 11
Spare armies:
IND: 0 FED: 0 ROM: 5
Scouts planets armies kills deaths
psycho (F0) 1 27 25 48
guest (F0) 2 46 30 46
Balton (F1) 4 117 88 112
Stigmata (F3) 3 90 80 74
Warlock (F4) 5 82 61 70
Crack Pot (F6) 5 129 35 75
null_void (Fa) 2 83 48 113
Brother X (Fc) 3 118 91 106
Red Shirt (Fe) 8 261 70 56
Total 33 953 528 700
Other
Val Ckurai (R2) 6 137 108 68
Ladyhawke (R5) 2 191 95 83
Kill_The_Scums (R7) 4 169 98 91
Phantom (R8) 5 55 70 74
Balinor (R9) 1 3 39 21
Lancelot (Rb) 3 0 18 20
Mr. Wizard (Rb) 1 10 24 18
Adrenochrome (Rb) 1 8 22 8
SpaceAce! (Rd) 3 233 78 72
grapes (Rf) 7 61 72 58
Balinor SB 49 2
Total 33 867 673 515
Grand Total 66 1820 1201 1212
Jason
aka- grapes (semi-retired)
tufu (semi-retired)
Scott Drellishak
)In article <1993Jan19.0...@udel.edu> jec...@eos.ncsu.edu writes:
)>
)>bot...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Justin Botelle) writes:
)>>pau...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Paulsen) writes:
)>>)Of course, FreeKill is exactly as good as you are :)
)>
)>>Now, Brian, you've forgotten, we're "head and shoulders" below *everyone*
)>
)>Just to clear up the pecking order...
)>
) [..CMU/UPenn/BERKELEY/KSU/IASTATE/USC/WASHINGTON/MIT/UTEXAS..]
Are you Of The Body?
--
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Scott Drellishak s...@neuromancer.metaphor.com |
| "Spumco ... the Danes call it quality." |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Shannon C Sprock
rear ensign sunscreamer writes:
The last person to fly a destroyer against me was EXODUS. I WEAR HIS
FLESH AS A COAT. NEXT!
ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho
ho
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he
he
NOT!
Kevin Michael Bernatz
> >I think the simple reason that more big names (ala hell peacock, bav, me,
> >yea boy, akira) have moved from DD's to other ships is because DD's are
> >honestly less useful as a general purpose ship. THE general purpose ship
> >is the CA. Maybe ged *is* more effective in a DD than a CA...this is
> Look, all I am saying is that the DD is the best ship for the
> mid-game. I am not so sure the CA is the general purpose ship, but I
> haven't decided for sure yet......
Hmm, I missed the first exerpt (Rob's). I switched from DD's before the
cooling rate because Torpedo Magnet and most other good CA players would
simply fly at warp 4 and dodge all your torps and phaser you to death.
A good CA can kill a good DD anytime, anywhere if he doesn't chase and
is solely doing this to dogfight. Likewise, a good DD can avoid being
killed by any ship if he knows when to run. It would seem the to are
contridictory, but I assure you they are not. Recently, I have been
playing DD's much more often because the cooling rates *do* make them a
viable option. If there is an agri to be taken or if I manage to get
two kills and don't feel like plasma scumming* or Chunging** myself I'll
grab a DD. If the agri is front line I'll prob. grab an AS. If I have
1 kill, or the ogging is heavy I will always fly a scout. (This is
assuming that I'm going to refit in the first place....which I only do
if I'm in a BB or occasionally in a CA). I disagree with the assertion
that the DD is the best mid-game ship. I don't think anyone is capable
of saying that about any ship. Each person is better at different ships
and at different points in the game. For you, the DD is best at
mid-game. However, for myself and (it seems) alot of other people it is
not. In fact, I wouldn't be surprized if alot of us simply grabbed
whatever ship we felt we needed to complete a certain task, whether this
was at the beginning, middle or end of a game.
-KB
Kevin Michael Bernatz
You'll have to pardon any repetition....it seems CMU is running a day
or so behind on most posts this semester.
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 18-Jan-93 Re: Yea, tho' I walk
throug.. 51...@scf.usc.edu (3362)
> The only time i use SC to ogg is to ogg
> difficult DDs and to ogg SCs. The only time i use CA to ogg is to ogg tough
> BBs and bases. Otherwise, the DD is a great ogger. On average the CA is
> better at ogging, but i prefer using the DD because it turns better and has
> better brakes.
You say that the only time you use a scout is to ogg difficult DD's.
Perhaps that's the point that people are trying to illustrate. Against
average Joe Schmo's the DD is a good ogger, but against good INL calibre
players (read : difficult DD's and scouts) you need to use a scout
(which is what 5150 does). I find it hard to believe that against a
*harder* opponent you would use a ship that would be worse at ogging
(and hense decrease your chance of killing him).
My personal preference really depends on the location of the carrier,
who he is, and what ship type he is in. All of these play into what
ship type and what tactic I use (Escort type and number also play into
what tactic).
Enemy Me Me if enemy has good escort
SC (near front) SC/DD SC/DD and a prayer
SC (backfield) CA CA
DD (front) SC/DD SC/DD and a prayer
DD (back) DD/CA CA
CA (front) SC/DD/CA DD/CA
CA (back) CA/BB CA/BB
BB (front) CA CA/BB
BB (back) SC/CA/BB CA/BB
AS (front) SC/DD/CA SC/DD/CA
AS (back) CA CA
Basically, I prefer ogging in a CA since the combined phaser power and
maneuverability makes it (IMNSHO) the best ogger. If you uncloak and
phaserlock any ship on the first shot you probably have a 80+% chance of
killing it no matter what escort is around (assuming you are within
30-40 point phaser range). Against good planet takers this probably
drops to around 50% and if you miss your first phaser I'd say it's more
like 40%/20% for average/good planet takers, respectively. Everyone is
going to have their own opinion, so argueing the merits of one over the
other is not exactly an easy thing to do :).
-KB
Rear Admiral Akira
Randell Jesup
>As another (formerly vocal) proponent of DDs, I'd like to second this
>comment. DDs are great -- but not for *everything*. For instance, I
>don't try to take heavily defended (read "last") planets in a DD if I
>can help it. Similarly, I don't ogg starbases in a DD if I can help
>it. Note the "if I can help it"s, though. The DD can do anything
>passably well (except absorb phasers a close range), so if I play one,
>and the team suddenly needs me to do something, I'm able. I have no
>qualms about ogging starbases in a DD -- I just hope the rest of the
>team uncloaks when I do.
As another player who has a definite preference for DD's, I have to
agree with this. When trying to take well-defending planets I usually don't
want to be in a DD, I want something that can soak up punishment while
beaming (like AS). However, one doesn't always have time to switch, and it's
a lot easier to scum a kill off a defender and pick up in a DD without getting
labelled a taker. In fact, in the last genocide at bigmax I was in I finished
the last planet in a DD, coming in a little late and from a different direction
(I had to go a long ways to pick up and almost didn't get back in time for
the wave). I'll og SB's in a DD if needed, but given a chance I'll switch to
BB or CA (depending on range to base). For general space control, scumming
kills, and nailing takers I usually fly DD's - I just fly/dodge/shoot better
in them. I also find I can get back faster for fuel/pickup/etc. They can
be useful for ferrying armies to a base too. I occasionally even fly them in
LPS's, though usually by chance. At bigmax I once was up to 16 kills in a DD
in an LPS at Pol (Kli space).
--
GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
- Doug Mohney, in comp.arch
Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering.
je...@cbmvax.commodore.com BIX: rjesup
Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion.
Randell Jesup
>Anybody ever Chung a starbase?
A certain unnamed Admiral (rear?) did so at Bronco the last time I
played there - twice. Combined with pressoring teammates with kills into walls
and plasma-ing them. I won't discuss what he did inbetween...
Brian Paulsen
even try to find a Destroyer Team of Doom. However, I'm so confidant that
DD's suck, I'm willing to field a team of Cruiser Team of Cruicfixation to
show that the pecking order puts DD's damn near bottom....
I think I could arrange to have the SC and CA team be completely different
teams so that a SC-CA match could be run... :)
Brian
Sean Christopher Simmons
> I am not scornful of destroyers, and I doubt Spaceace is either.
As the author of the "Ship of lose" post, I would have to say that he
is. I've talked to Rob about it quite a bit too. He is, perhaps, not
as scornful of them as I am, but certainly not a big fan.
> I play destroyers a lot these days, but haven't tried them in INL
> games. In pick-up games there are always some twinks, and I can scum a
> kill off a twink in a destroyer much more easily than I can in a scout.
> They don't have to be total newbies, just bad enough that I can hit
> them with some undetted torps and they don't phaser me too much.
This is perhaps a point that I didn't make clear. I know that INL
games != random twink games. I'm more worried about the INL games
(Never thought I'd be saying that when the INL first formed.). You can
get away with anything if your opponents are bad enough. I gave up
flying DDs three times. The first time, I gave them up because I found
it easier to get kills in an AS in a normal pick-up games. This doesn't
mean that I reccomend the AS as the ship to fly all the time in INL
games.
ZZnew guy
Sean Christopher Simmons
> However, if I
> have 2.5 kills or more, I usually refit to a DD.
That was my plan for a long time. It actually took Sunscreamer to
point out that I was telegraphing my next move this way. That was when
I gave up the DD for the third time.
ZZnew guy
Sean Christopher Simmons
> I fought Mergatroid, FillInTheBlank, and about four others. I
> did OK in the dogfight tourney, though in the final round I sucked. I did
> fly CAs, when everyone else was flying BBs, but I still think the CA is
> better (see how stubborn I am)....
You can often be stubborn past the point of paying attention. All of
the CAs had <1 ratios. All but one of the BBs had >1 ratio. You still
think that the CA dogfights better. I don't see how you reached your
conclusion.
Note: While I'm convinced that the BB dogfights better, I still think
that it is the worse of the two ships overall.
ZZnew guy
5150
> Call it as you see it. I'd much rather have a team-mate who will bomb
>and harras and drop armies without escort than one who spends is time
>scumming kills because he's more likely to get escort if he carries more
>armies. Your mileage may vary, I guess.
The typical SC will not drop armies, unfortunately. I can wait for the damn
DD to get its kills; in the meantime i'll ogg and bomb and do whatever i feel
like doing. It really doesn't matter in a pickup game.
>>Such unscrupulous namedropping, Hugh. If the best players treat a ship with
>>scorn, all the more reason i use it and ogg the crap out of them (unless they
>>are in a SC).
> The namedropping is the whole POINT. There just aren't that calibur of
>DD players. ^
(caliber) And that's only because you can't be as annoying in a DD. It's
like SB players who stand out: they can be annoying in an SB. You can't be
annoying in a CA, BB, or DD.
> Further, if you can't Ogg a SC with a DD, doesn't that just support
>what I'm saying?
No. You can't ogg a BB with a SC, either. This is totally unrelated.
5150
Sean Christopher Simmons
throug.. Felix S. Ga...@wixer.cac (2682)
> >>sunscreamer
> And wouldn't it be great if we brought BEER?
> >>SpaceAce!
> >>pyscho bomber
> >>Balton
> >>Helix
> >>
> So after I recovered from the shock of being mentioned in a list of good
> netrek players even though I haven't had an X terminal I can effectively
> use for over five months,
Sunscreamer was a good scout. I don't really think that he's of the
same calibur as that list. It's good to know that he has a realistic
oppinion of himself. I'd go so far as to say that he's too harsh.
There are a lot of players who have over-inflated oppinions of
themselves (I will NOT give names.). I respect those who know what they
are capable of.
ZZnew guy
Sean Christopher Simmons
> I would agree. I've seen SpaceAce! and Yea Boy!!!!! use them effectively
> against TWNN and I've used DD's against them. The trick is that most of the
> time, we go to the front, grab our kills fast in a CA and then refit.
> Unless you've fairly mastered scumming kills, or you have fellow teammates
> leaving you kills, you just ain't gonna get kills in a DD against skilled
> opponents.
I would tend to agree with this. There are some specialized cases
when the DD is handy. However, it is very weak as a Jack-of-all-trades
ship. I would say the same of the AS.
ZZnew guy
Sean Christopher Simmons
ZZnew guy
Michael Moore
>
> You can often be stubborn past the point of paying attention. All of
>the CAs had <1 ratios. All but one of the BBs had >1 ratio. You still
>think that the CA dogfights better. I don't see how you reached your
>conclusion.
It wasn't a conclusion. I just wasn't thouroughly convinced that
the BBs were better. There were only two CAs in the game, and if you ask
us we both had shitty nights. Sure, sounds like weasling, but this seems
to be my forte.
Anyway, I am not absolutely convinced on this subject. To be
honest, it is probably true that the BB is better in a dogfight than the
CA. But I want to use the CA maneuverability to a maximum before I
consent...
-Michael (Ged) Sb law # 9 - Find the twinks that can't shoot early
on, then let them live and use them
for TP maneuvering.
PS - Surely this benign post cannot incite a flamewar.....
Roger Books
>Organization: Sponsored account, School Of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
>Path: mailer.cc.fsu.edu!gatech!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ss72+
>Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
>Message-ID: <ofKrzA600...@andrew.cmu.edu>
>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 23:13:00 -0500
>From: Sean Christopher Simmons <ss...@andrew.cmu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Yea, tho' I walk through the valley of the shadow of Red Shirt
>In-Reply-To: <books...@fsunuc.physics.fsu.edu>
>References: <1jarhb...@hadrosaur.cis.ohio-state.edu> <C10pH9...@cs.cmu.edu> <1jd2g...@monster.cis.ohio-state.edu> <C116y...@news.iastate.edu>
> <books...@fsunuc.physics.fsu.edu>
>Lines: 15
You left out my comment about tractors. You lines are only good if you
can get that tractor lock on me. Of course, since I normally play with
250+ms lag you should be able to tractor me quite easily. Dodging your
opponents moves long before they are made really sucks.
Cirdan
Useless stats? What does 3.0+ bombing
0.8 defense
0.3- offense
tell you about me?
Roger Books
> The namedropping is the whole POINT. There just aren't that calibur
>of DD players.
> Further, if you can't Ogg a SC with a DD, doesn't that just support
>what I'm saying?
>
>"Drop shields. Det"
>
>ZZnew guy
The namedropping is useless. DD's just haven't been useful long enough
to develop the same quality players, not that I'm a DD fan, not that anyone
cares what my opinion is [ :) ].
Cirdan
(Not that anybody cares about any opinion other than their own on r.g.n.)
Kevin Michael Bernatz
> >>FreeKill
> >>ZZnewGuy
> >>Red Shirt
> >>Warsong
> >>Mergatroid
> >>sunscreamer
> >>SpaceAce!
> >>pyscho bomber
> >>Balton
> >>Helix
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 18-Jan-93 Re: Yea, tho' I walk
throug.. Brian Pau...@eniac.seas (1208)
> Stilleto
> Duck Dodgers
> Hell Peacock
> Ged
> Yea Boy!
> Ryche
> Mojo
<sniff> <sniff>... I guess it's true... I've finally reached
has_been_dom when Ceri and Greg are picked ahead of me...
*Big smiley*
-KB
Rear Admiral Akira
Commodore Sun Tzu
P.S. Hey Brian! Taking 4th space is tough! Give us some credit :) :) :)
Kevin Michael Bernatz
(again...s.. Scott He...@newton.Color (903)
> P.S. How does one spell "Muahaha" ?
Ask Duck... he's the Muahaha (sp?) expert :)
-KB
Joseph E. Beck
m...@cis.ohio-state.edu (Michael Moore) writes:
> In article <QfKiewq00...@andrew.cmu.edu> "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.\
> cmu.edu> writes:
> >DD
> >Yes, the fire power of a SC.
> >
>
> Better firepower than a scout. The scout's advantage is in
> torp speed, not firepower.
Depends on how you define "firepower". I think of it on how much
damage something is likely to do at range X. Not counting torp speed
just seems wrong to me. I don't think 2 ships with 30 points torps
where one ship's move at warp 16 and another's at 14 have equivalent
torps firepower.
> >Hmmm...how many times in good games are 5 armies sitting around?
> >That's when Warsong finally convinced me that SC's were cool. If
> >there are 5 armies frequently lying around (being able to pick these
> >up being the only advantage of the DD) then the game is probably not
> >very clued and it doesn't matter which ship you use.
> >
>
> Quite often in a good game there will be three or four armies
> to be picked up.
This is very strange to me. In recent games I have taken almost no
planets. Why? Because more and more people have discovered planet
taking, general clue level has increased. As a result there are a lot
of people waiting for armies. The areas that a team usually needs is
bombing and ogging (in that order). With a lot of teamates trying to
take planets acquiring 3 or 4 armies just isn't likely.
> I pick my two up from a planet just like the scout,
> but if a pop should occurr and I am in reasonable distance, I can
> use them if I have multiple kills.
Ah...so the DD has acquired 2 kills. What is the SC doing while the
DD was attempting this feat.
> This happens quite often in any
> game. In the mid-game there are just too many planets to be covered
> by scoutbombers. Not to mention that planets near the front are
> heavily trafficed.
Wow. So you're bringing your 2 kill DD with armies into an area
that's "heavily trafficed" at the front?
> >> This stuff about scouts being better dogfighters than DDs is,
> >> as far as I have seen, totally wrong. Not just when I went out hunting
> >> down people to dogfight in DD vs. Scout, but in everyday games where
> >> I come up against a scout. I always smack myself upside the head when
> >> I let a scout out dogfight me, simply because it happens so rarely.
> >Just curious, who did you fight? You entered the dogfighting
> >tournament and did pretty well, were the SC of equal quality? In
> >standard games I tend to blow away DD's when I'm in a SC, but I don't
> >draw conclusions from it since most DD players tend to suck.
> >
>
> No scouts fought in the final round of the tourney.
No kidding. SC versus BB is just stupid.
> I fought Mergatroid, FillInTheBlank, and about four others.
Mergatroid? Impressive. Fill doesn't impress me as a SC player
(could be wrong, correct me if I am).
joe
Purple haze
Lamb, Leg Of
Joseph E. Beck
Joseph E. Beck
hd...@cs.cmu.edu (Herbert Enderton) writes:
> > Of the players for SS, GB, XG, and TWNN, 2 are well known for using
> >DDs. However, in spite of his reputation, bav almost entirely gave up
> >DDs when he quit playing on Chaos, and even Hell Peacock has been forced
> >to use other ships more and more. There is a reason for this. When the
> >best players in the game all treat a ship with scorn, why do people not
> >pay attention? Do Ged and Weenie Blaster know the game better than
> >Spaceace and Red Shirt?
> >
> >ZZnew guy
>
> I am not scornful of destroyers, and I doubt Spaceace is either. Ask
> instead whether Ged knows the game better than woof, Purple Haze, or
> yourself; I'd say the answer is "yes."
I'd say the answer is "no". Oh, and your question should have been
does Ged know the game better than woof, Purple haze, *and* yourself
(ZZ). Because he knows the game better than 1 person on the side of
an argument doesn't make the argument invalid (if he knows the game
better than all players on the side of an argument it says something).
>I play destroyers a lot these days, but haven't tried them in INL
>games. In pick-up games there are always some twinks, and I can scum a
>kill off a twink in a destroyer much more easily than I can in a scout.
>They don't have to be total newbies, just bad enough that I can hit
>them with some undetted torps and they don't phaser me too much.
If you bother to play in these games why not go all the way and take
an AS. That way you can pick up 20 armies after picking up 6.7 kills,
and can carry 3 armies per kill. Much more efficient. Come on, "hit
them with some undetted torps and hope they don't phaser me too
much.". I think Rob summed it up well when he said anything works
against twinks. Against idiots SC's work about as well, and are much
tougher to ogg once they pick up.
>For ogging, I find a destroyer better than a cruiser or a scout:
Ok. I will take a SC, you can have a DD. Try to ogg me. I will
take an AS, you can have a DD. Try to ogg me. Or you can try to ogg
a competent AS player and see how it goes. DD's work ok ogging CA's,
but fail miserable at SC's and AS. But of course, if the CA takes
some undetted torps, and doesn't phaser me too much, I just kill him
in my SC, bomb the planet, then pick up 2 armies.
Joseph E. Beck
Brian Paulsen
Sorry, shoulda been more specific. I refit if I either have to go to the
base or go to my homeworld, *and* I think I need the speed of a DD (or
the cloaking power). Otherwise, I'm more than happy to take planets in
a CA. I would have to disagree with people on how bad the CA is for planet
taking. I found it to be pretty good. It's almost the only ship that gives
you the cloaking ability and the firepower to cloak for a while, uncloak,
and kill the planet defender if need be.
Brian
Robert Hill
> In Dec. of '91, there was a scout tourney (well... actually it was a 1/2
> scout tourney) at CMU. One team was all scouts - Red Shirt was the
> captain (I don't remember if they were allowed to have AS for the
> initial bombing run but I don't think they had a base) and the other
> team was allowed to choose whatever ship they wanted- EEK was the
> captain. I was on EEK's team.
They couldn't use AS's in the initial run.
> The scouts actually led in planets for the first half hour, but we
> slowly came back. We eventually won but only by two planets (11-9).
> And I don't remember if we ever took anything past their front line
> planets. The problem with playing against an all scout team is the
> SWARM. Getting a kill was no problem at all, but holding the kill
> (especially if they knew you were carrying) was very difficult. If you
> survivied the first SWARM, they usually got you on the second (If you
> were trying to take a planet, they usually SWARMED you atleast twice
> before you even got to the planet... DAMN they're fast!!!). That and
> the scarcity of out armies made it almost impossible to take any planet
> past their front line. They even killed our base at IND (the base had
> to worry about wtemp because the scout would come back so quickly). It
> took a couple of waves but they did it.
This was one of the most interesting games i've played in. It seemed that
there was 3 ships for us to use (the non-scout team). Either a) BB's b)
AS's or c) SC's. You needed sc's to kill their scout carriers. You used
BB's as zone defenses and escorts. You used AS's as planet takers. I'll
never forget me and Val CKurai sitting on org (fuel) (in BB's) and
destroying like 20 scouts before we were killed. It seemed the scouts
were like a stream of torps...it was very tough.
> And if you want to know about the legitimacy of the tourney, here's a
> list of players and the stats of the game (some of the player may not be
> considered awesome but they are all clued.)
>
The teams were pretty even. At the time, the players were some of the
best players at CMU. Just for the record, the psycho included wasn't
psycho feta(bomber)...
> psycho (F0) 1 27 25 48
> Jason
> aka- grapes (semi-retired)
Rob
aka Spaceace!
> tufu (semi-retired)
>
>
Daniel G. McDaniel
> Of the players for SS, GB, XG, and TWNN, 2 are well known for using
>DDs. However, in spite of his reputation, bav almost entirely gave up
>DDs when he quit playing on Chaos, and even Hell Peacock has been forced
Well this says it all for me... I Quit...
Now adys if you want some good entertainment on Chaos you have to invite
people to play... or just incenerate scummers... There was a time when
Chaos was fun but it appears that all the Weenies play Mod servers now...
Oh well no great lose... instant tracking plasmas are annoying any how...
>to use other ships more and more. There is a reason for this. When the
>best players in the game all treat a ship with scorn, why do people not
>pay attention? Do Ged and Weenie Blaster know the game better than
>Spaceace and Red Shirt?
>
>ZZnew guy
As for DD's I like em... And I agree they never seem to be useful when
ogging a semiclueful base... Not Mucus... In that case it doesn't matter
what you fly :( As for which is better the DD or the SC... this is all
dependent on whos flying it...
===============================================================================
--Tundra/Dan | "Quack Quack!"
| -- Tundra/Dan aka Rubber Duck
|
| Disclaimer: If you dont like my opinions dont read them...
===============================================================================
Robert Hill
Well, in a good game, they will know who is carrying anyway (unless you
deceive them). I know if I have 2.5 kills and 5 armies, i'll be in a DD.
Of course, i'm the motel, so what do I know about saving armies? :-)
Rob
aka Spaceace!
Robert Hill
> fad...@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden) writes:
> >Anybody ever Chung a starbase?
>
> A certain unnamed Admiral (rear?) did so at Bronco the last time I
> played there - twice. Combined with pressoring teammates with kills
> into walls and plasma-ing them. I won't discuss what he did
> inbetween...
>
> je...@cbmvax.commodore.com BIX: rjesup
Gee...I wonder who that was? Could it be the man himself? Naww....that's
even too scummy for him!! (NOT!)
Rob
aka Spaceace!
Brian Paulsen
)) Stilleto
)) Duck Dodgers
)) Hell Peacock
)) Ged
)) Yea Boy!
)) Ryche
)) Mojo
)<sniff) <sniff)... I guess it's true... I've finally reached
)has_been_dom when Ceri and Greg are picked ahead of me...
Heh - not at all. With a few exceptions on the above list, I've just listed
players who I've seen that I think are both clued and can play DD's. That
list is extremely short - most clued players would never admit to liking a
DD better. I'm not saying the above players like it better, but they do
play it rather well.
By the way, sorry Bav for forgetting you. You and Hell Peacock used to be
the top DD players that I could remember from last year.
)P.S. Hey Brian! Taking 4th space is tough! Give us some credit :) :) :)
Yeah, but you usually do it with a real ship, not a DD :) :)
P.S. - You are one of my top picks for the CA team.
Brian
Jim Ivey
In article <UfLMthW00...@andrew.cmu.edu> "Joseph E. Beck"
<jb...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> > I fought Mergatroid, FillInTheBlank, and about four others.
> Mergatroid? Impressive. Fill doesn't impress me as a SC player
> (could be wrong, correct me if I am).
Nope, you're dead on. I'm a terrible scout player. DD's as well.
And BB's for that matter. Heck, throw AS's in there, too:)
In essence, yes.. I'm only good at CA's.:) And bases of course.. I'm
the (second) greatest base in existence. No, really..
And while I'm on the soapbox, a couple quick opinions.
1) 40-second pops are inane. It's stupid to say that it adds an
interesting strategic element to the game. It's a facet of the program
that was initially there to make coding easier. You're taking advantage of
it. I can't see any reason to keep them.
2) SC's vs DD's. In a straight out dogfighting contest, with nothing
else involved, I believe that people of exactly equal skill will find the
following. BB beats CA beats DD beats SC. The difference comes when you
get into a real game, in which case I'd much rather have a CA than a BB,
and a SC instead of a DD. I'm not really interested in going into my
reasons why, because I think this whole flame-war is as inane as the
40-second pop debate. I'm just being a prick and sticking out my opinion
while I'm here.
3) One-race genocide. I've _always_ thought this was a great idea.
And I still think a two-race screen is better than the four-race screen. I
_hate_ _hate_ _HATE_ seeing some cowardly little shit come cloaking in out
of third/fourth space to take a planet. Get some balls and learn to take
the heat of a front-line skirmish.
4) Base debates. Wreck is the best.
5) Chunging. It makes me giggle, but it's getting old.
6) People with OGG in their name that have a defense above .8. Get a
grip.
That's enough for now, I suppose.. Direct flames up the rear of your
college buddies, not me.
Jamie / FillInTheBorg
Sun God
Note: While I'm convinced that the CA dogfights better (than the DD), I
still think that it is the worse of the two ships overall.
Note: While I'm convinced that the DD dogfights better (than the SC), I
still think it is the better of the two ships, because with scattered pops 2
armies isn't enough to do more than bomb the hard way.
I can see why all of you scout fanatics want the 40 second timer in the
INL...
--Dave/WeenieBlaster
More annoying than Ged!
Able to kill admirals in a single DD!
It's a Warbird! It's a DD! It's WeenieBlaster!
(still having trouble with tall buildings)
Joseph E. Beck
>damage something is likely to do at range X. Not counting torp speed
>just seems wrong to me. I don't think 2 ships with 30 points torps
>where one ship's move at warp 16 and another's at 14 have equivalent
>torps firepower.
referring to SC torps. I'm mearly pointing out that torp speed is an
important determiner of firepower.
Also, I'd like to apologize for my posts showing up twice. My sender
wasn't bothering to mention if it had sent posts or not. Sorry about
that.
Kevin Michael Bernatz
throug.. Jason Sung Park@andrew.c (3699)
> Kill_The_Scums (R7) 4 169 98 91
> Phantom (R8) 5 55 70 74
Geez, Bill the planet scum! Taking more planets then even me :).
(It should also be noted that as of the later parts of the game, BOTH
teams were flying scouts... This was before the increased engine
cooling rate on the DD, but I still think the non-scout team would have
chosen Scouts).
-KB
Rear Admiral "A possible clue" Akira
Flt. Captain Kill_The_Scums
Sean Christopher Simmons
throug.. Jason Sung Park@andrew.c (3699)
> Scouts planets armies kills deaths
> psycho (F0) 1 27 25 48
> guest (F0) 2 46 30 46
> Balton (F1) 4 117 88 112
> Stigmata (F3) 3 90 80 74
> Warlock (F4) 5 82 61 70
> Crack Pot (F6) 5 129 35 75
> null_void (Fa) 2 83 48 113
> Brother X (Fc) 3 118 91 106
> Red Shirt (Fe) 8 261 70 56
>
> Total 33 953 528 700
>
>
> Other
> Val Ckurai (R2) 6 137 108 68
> Ladyhawke (R5) 2 191 95 83
> Kill_The_Scums (R7) 4 169 98 91
> Phantom (R8) 5 55 70 74
> Balinor (R9) 1 3 39 21
> Lancelot (Rb) 3 0 18 20
> Mr. Wizard (Rb) 1 10 24 18
> Adrenochrome (Rb) 1 8 22 8
> SpaceAce! (Rd) 3 233 78 72
> grapes (Rf) 7 61 72 58
> Balinor SB 49 2
At one point, the non-scouts took Den (Agri)
The SC wee not allowed AS in the opening bombing wave or a SB at any time.
Psycho and Lancelot were probably the weakest players in the game.
I don't know who guest or Stigmata were.
Brother X was ZZnew guy
Ladyhawke was EEK!
Kill_The_Scums was Akira
grapes was tufu
ZZnew guy
Sean Christopher Simmons
> I think I could arrange to have the SC and CA team be completely different
> teams so that a SC-CA match could be run... :)
I don't like that plan. I wanted to be on both teams.
ZZnew guy
Sean Christopher Simmons
throug.. Roger Bo...@fsunuc.physi (1805)
> You left out my comment about tractors. You lines are only good if you
> can get that tractor lock on me. Of course, since I normally play with
> 250+ms lag you should be able to tractor me quite easily. Dodging your
> opponents moves long before they are made really sucks.
Tractor is very important. It is also longer range than phaser, so if
you can hit with phasers, you can lock tractor (unless your foe is
cloaked). It is, in fact, much easier to hit with tractors. As I've
said before, when you're severly lagged, the tractor is the only weapon
that you can depend on.
> Useless stats? What does 3.0+ bombing
> 0.8 defense
> 0.3- offense
Hard to tel much from this. It does say that your bombing probably
comes from actually bombing, not Ogging. You look sort of like an
overeager (Or over-lagged) SC bomber. Planet rating?
ZZnew guy
Sean Christopher Simmons
> DD's just haven't been useful long enough
> to develop the same quality players, not that I'm a DD fan, not that anyone
> cares what my opinion is [ :) ].
I've played probably half of my hours in a DD. Strangely to some, I
gave them up AFTER the e-temp change was made. Why? Well, I had
already been using a SC for bombing, and I'd been using the DD for
Ogging and scumming. Finally, Spaceace bullied me into using a CA for
Ogging, and it was clear -- instantly -- that it was better. It was
also clear that it fought better. So I gave up the DD for general use.
This was the second (and most important) time that I gave up the DD.
ZZnew guy
James Hawtin
twinks then?
James.
PS What kind of naff American work is twink anyway :-)
Roger Books
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 20-Jan-93 Re: Yea, tho' I walk
>throug.. Roger Bo...@fsunuc.physi (1805)
>> Useless stats? What does 3.0+ bombing
>> 0.8 defense
>> 0.3- offense
>
> Hard to tel much from this. It does say that your bombing probably
>comes from actually bombing, not Ogging. You look sort of like an
>overeager (Or over-lagged) SC bomber. Planet rating?
Overeager, lag normally around 250, no UDP SC bomber.
Planet rating floats around 1.0
>
>ZZnew guy
Cirdan
g2c...@cdf.toronto.edu
>Ok so with have had the list of the best..... Now perhaps a list of the biggest known
>twinks then?
>
1. Paper Boy! (who always tell others what to do but kept on failing to do
them himself. :))
Any others?
-- Paper Boy!
lnk...@cayley.uwaterloo.ca
I don't know if "Paper Boy!" is the biggest known twink around or not.
But he will be one of the biggest scum around (he's still working on it :).
One of his character on garnet is called "Rabbit Hunter", and so far he's got
7+ on bombing, 3+ on planets, 0.5< on offense in something like 3 or 4 hours.
If anyone feel like ogging bigtime scummer, look out for our Rabbit Hunter.
(Personally I don't ogg him, I know Chen quite well. Just wanna use him as an
ogg bait to draw more players to garnet; of course, clued ones preferred.
Sorry, Chen. Hehehe :)
Incidentally, for those of you who visited garnet, you might have noticed a
strange phenomenon: sometimes well aimed torps were self-detted before they
impacted. Well, some of our not-so-bright local players got a bad habit from
our experimental Tuesdays (aka borg day), during which self-det torps inflict
damage.
Oh, BTW, _who_ is the biggest scum around in the netrek-land?
-COLD
Keith (Killer on garnet)
Sean Christopher Simmons
throug.. Sun G...@iastate.edu (1444)
> > Note: While I'm convinced that the BB dogfights better, I still think
> >that it is the worse of the two ships overall.
> >
> >ZZnew guy
> Note: While I'm convinced that the CA dogfights better (than the DD), I
> still think that it is the worse of the two ships overall.
> Note: While I'm convinced that the DD dogfights better (than the SC), I
> still think it is the better of the two ships, because with scattered pops 2
> armies isn't enough to do more than bomb the hard way.
> I can see why all of you scout fanatics want the 40 second timer in the
> INL...
The arguement has sort of stagnated, so I'm not going to go back into it.
I will say, however, that a number of the "scout fanatics", including
myself are for scattered popping. I'm not even sure why you think that
it hoses scouts. It does in some ways and helps in others. I think
that the arguement that a number of SC-bombers (like Mergatroid) have
against scattered pops is that it means they're going to get stuck doing
nothing but bombing instead of bombing and a bit of this and that on the
side. As an often SC-bomber, I can certainly sympathsize.
ZZnew guy