Tmi-3 Project
somerville32
I thought I would just make a quick post to inform those who read this
news group that a new project called Tmi-3 has been born. mi-3 is an
umbrella project that aspires to revive the LpCommunity through
offering services such as IRC Chats; standardization; a mutual location
for research, education, and certification; a modern and powerful lpc
mudlib; and MudOS driver development. We have recieved alot of support
already from the mudmagic community and I'm really looking forward to
the success of Tmi-3. If you are interested in helping out in any area,
then feel free to e-mail me or visit our SourceForge project page at
https://sourceforge.net/projects/tmi-3/ (The website is currently in
development). Before I go, I just want to make a few points. 1) This is
a mutual project for the whole community 2) The more people who come
out to help, the better the results 3) For the LpCommunity, By the
LpCommunity. Well, I hope that helps :) Feel free to e-mail me for more
information or to get your input in.
Thanks,
~ Somerville32
vi...@securesoftware.com
more. Do your own thing, don't try to leech recognition off someone
else's legacy.
Kaylus
leaving barely anything of quality or even amusement. What is worse is
that an idiotic troll like you is degenerating them even further.
It is obvious that you are attention starved, why else would you have
replied? After reading your post I did a quick scan of Google and a
scan of the archived usenet posts. Amazingly there was no reference to
this TMI-3 project you mention, which means that the person here who is
attempting to start this knows nothing about it.
Since this person knows nothing about it, and for that case the
majority of people probably have no knowledge, wouldn't it then be YOU
who is attempting to "leech recognition off someone else's legacy" with
your pathetic plea for attention?
Kaylus@Solice
vi...@securesoftware.com
the guy wasn't too aware of what was going on there, and I think it's
clear he doesn't have the sanction of any of us who were TMI admins
(this is certainly the first I've heard of it). That kind of common
courtesy should have been extended, and as far as I can tell, it
wasn't.
It could be done with the greatest intensions, but it seems completely
wrong to leverage whatever shred of recognition TMI still has without
getting buy-in from the people who were there when it went away... at
least those who are still easy to contact (which is several of us).
Just because the person didn't know about TMI-3 doesn't excuse them
from not trying to contact us (in which case they would have learned
about it).
Lars Duening
> It is dissapointing to see that the threads here have degenerated
> leaving barely anything of quality or even amusement. What is worse is
> that an idiotic troll like you is degenerating them even further.
>
> It is obvious that you are attention starved, why else would you have
> replied? After reading your post I did a quick scan of Google and a
> scan of the archived usenet posts.
Too bad that you didn't google for 'Viega TMI' as well.
--
Lars Duening; lars at bearnip dot com
Kaylus
I understand your intentions fully, though why would you even bother
naming it after TMI? Why not find something more in line with your
current project?
> It was all over the TMI-2 buliten boards at the time. It's clear that
> the guy wasn't too aware of what was going on there, and I think it's
> clear he doesn't have the sanction of any of us who were TMI admins
> (this is certainly the first I've heard of it). That kind of common
> courtesy should have been extended, and as far as I can tell, it
> wasn't.
John:
It was clear from the beginning that this person had no idea, and I
agree with you wholeheartedly that he should have attempted to contact,
from common courtesy, those who had anything do to with the original
TMI namesake.
My problem wasn't with anything more than the less-than intelligent
response proffered, especially from someone of your reputation. It is
more than clear that his goal isn't to leech recognition off of ANYONE
but to rebuild the LPC community (which is probably hopeless).
Lars Duening:
> Too bad that you didn't google for 'Viega TMI' as well.
Lars:
One change, you should have said "Rust TMI" and "John Viega" google
searches, it would have proven your point much better ;)
Then again, there is no need to google anything, the whole point of me
mentioning google was to point out the original poster would have had
no knowledge of TMI-3 ever having existed.
I am also quite aware of John Viega's work, both in the LPC community
and out (more impressive IMO), which is another reason this post caught
my attention. His accomplishments and his previous contributions don't
prove that his (JV's) -original- post doesn't degenerate these groups,
which are based on the LPC community and which the (S32's)-original-
poster is trying to help.
Kaylus
Adjust the antenna, you might get a signal.
p.s. Boo. Sorry, I reread my previous post and my original intention
was to write "leeching recognition off of someone else's (non)legacy"
in reference to TMI-3 and the non-existance of anything pertaining to
it.
vi...@securesoftware.com
informing him of that. The point that he's trying to leech off
whatever reputation the name "TMI" has (not that he's trying to leech
off a TMI-3 legacy... I think you misinterpreted what I was saying in
the first post). As you say, it was quite clear from his original mail
he'd never talked to anyone from TMI-2, for this reason alone. (He also
thinks he's taken over the MudOS name, BTW, which he also has never
asked about).
I know what his end goal is, but he is *clearly* trying to leech
recognition for his project using the TMI name, and without first
getting buy-in from any of the old TMI people. Considering that, I
don't see that it merited a response that would take any longer to
write than the one I gave, nor do I see how it degenerates a group that
is essentially already absolutely dead, anyway :) You're certainly
entitled to a different opinion, though.
Kaylus
vi...@securesoftware.com wrote:
> I did not expect him to know there was already a TMI-3 project. I was
> informing him of that. The point that he's trying to leech off
> whatever reputation the name "TMI" has (not that he's trying to leech
> off a TMI-3 legacy... I think you misinterpreted what I was saying in
> the first post). As you say, it was quite clear from his original mail
> he'd never talked to anyone from TMI-2, for this reason alone. (He also
> thinks he's taken over the MudOS name, BTW, which he also has never
> asked about).
Agreed, I misinterpreted. Admittedly your original post was open to
interpretation as it was. Though you are right, as to leeching off of
what namesake there is left for TMI he is guilty. and i'd recommend him
go with something like MIR (Mud Institute for Research) or something
just as similar, although in the end the concept will be similar but it
will avoid stepping on toes.
> I know what his end goal is, but he is *clearly* trying to leech
> recognition for his project using the TMI name, and without first
> getting buy-in from any of the old TMI people. Considering that, I
> don't see that it merited a response that would take any longer to
> write than the one I gave, nor do I see how it degenerates a group that
> is essentially already absolutely dead, anyway :) You're certainly
> entitled to a different opinion, though.
Every vantage point offers a different perspective. It is 'leeching'
off the TMI namesake, though whether that specific intent was there is
questionable. The reply it merited was not (subje....
-----> Post interrupted due to browsing while typing.
Fuck it. I take it back, you are right. I just looked up the posts at
MudMagic and it seems that was clearly his intent. To pull on the
namesake of TMI.
http://www.mudmagic.com/boards/bases/26/514/514
I hate it when I defend someone and end up being wrong. Heh. I'll still
argue that adding to the noise further drowns the little signal left :)
Thanks.
Kaylus
somerville32
to me now that I must. First off, I'm not ignorant. I know very well
about TMI history, and that includes the two different Tmi-3 project
attempts. It appears, IMHO, that it was purely politics that destroyed
such a powerful and helpful institution that really kept the LPmudding
community around as long as it did. Looking back at what happened, I
feel that TMI really lost focus of its original aspirations and goals
due to a power struggle that finally ripped everything to shreds. My
goal, in using the name, was to remember those goals and aspirations
and to continue the legacy. You claim that I didn't attempt to
contact old TMI admins, but how do you know? I admit that I hadn't
got around to contacting you because of fear that the political stench
of that era still hadn't evaporated (which it appears true) but I did
contact several and have some of them on the team (which names I
won't release as requested by them). Furthermore, the ones who have
moved on from mudding and such have given us their good graces.
Now, to further counter the allegations I would like to point out that
Lima isn't calling TMI-3 (While there was another TMI-3 project, it
wasn't successful enough to consider it in this argument). When
people think of TMI-3 now, I believe they think of our project. You
might be ponders the use of the word "our", well... if you actually
took some time to really look at what we are doing then you would see
that it is a community project. Everyone has a say, everyone can take
part, everyone can make this successful or a failure. You say that we
are leaching off of someone's legacy... Whose legacy? You really
think that anyone would agree with you that the legacy belonged to one
person? Why is it wrong to leverage from the recognition of our
predecessors? Please Rust, tell me these things. I respect your work
Vega but I don't appreciate the way you are treating an organization
that has such good intentions.
As for the MudOS name, that can be an issue that can be discussed
somewhere else. The MudOS project was a separate project that has
merged with TMI-3. They are in their own endeavor to complete their
task.
I'll send you an e-mail later today Rust to formally request your
permission since you were rightfully an admin of the late Tmi-2 and
Tmi-3 project. If you feel the need to reject my request, we'll go
from there. Please accept this as an apology.
somerville32
one has said no so far except for your objection here).
vi...@securesoftware.com
Ultimately, I have no problem with there being a TMI-3 or even calling
it TMI-3 (though I probably would have picked TMI-4). I have no
problem seeing the legacy leveraged as long as there are people who
endorse it. At the end, TMI-2 was in Leto's care (isn't he still
technically the maintainer??), and I'd be most comfortable if he were
comfortable enough to give his blessing. I'd be just as comfortable if
you had active involvement from anyone who was ever involved there.
I certainly don't like the way you've handled this in that you're not
saying who is endorsing you, and, so far as I can tell, you have never
once even claimed anywhere in the past two months (before now). From an
outside perspective, you are not showing in any way shape or form why
you're entitled to pick up the torch and cary on a legacy. It seems
like it would be one of the first things anyone should do. My problem
is not with your "good intentions" so much as it is with your approach
and actions.
The whole history of TMI is irrelevant. I have respect for everyone
who was involved with it at any point, and would cheer on any of those
guys if they got re-engaged. My issue is in the way you've run with
something where by all public appearances you'd been looking to embrase
their legacy without any moral entitlement to it. If you have such a
thing, then my prime concern melts away like ice, and I wish you the
best of luck.
BTW, I don't understand your notion of the TMI legacy living with a
single person. If it's anyone's legacy, it's Buddha's, in some sense.
But at the end of the day, I was more concerned with the moral right
to pick up the name. You certainly have the moral right to pick up the
mission.
Also, I'm surprised you'd cite "politics". Most of us have move well on
from the mud development world. TMI-2 petered out about a decade ago. I
don't think I've really been involved in almost 12 years. If there are
people who still get hung up on political issues from that long ago on
a mud of all things, that seems a bit unexpected, and their own issue.
If they want to get involved with the project and bring their own
preferences and politics back, that's a new issue. At the end of the
day, I can't see any of this as a reason not to ask around. What did
you really expect people to do that would be "bad" from a political
standpoint?? Do you really expect people like me to attempt to derail
use of the name over someone else's endorsement just because of
differences in opinion and core design issues, or because of
personality conflicts, all from 10 years ago? With people who never
met face to face? I think it's a bit unrealistic.
Whatever. At the end of the day, I don't like how you've gone about
it, but if you've actually got buy-in and involvement from others, then
I absolutely wish you the best of luck.
Now MudOS is a different issue. MudOS still has a maintainer, even if
he doesn't release updates or work on it. I can promise you that
nobody has approached him about this in at least 8 months. He
absolutely 100% certainly hasn't turned over any control of the
project, either. So it was another reason why you have come across as
trying to take away someone else's name without their concent.
vi...@securesoftware.com
Anyway, Leto definitely claims you haven't approached him (we may have
been at odds over TMI-3 stuff 12 years ago, but we've actually been
good friends for a long time). You guys claim to have MudOS and yet
you've never approached Marius (who is my best friend). There was
certainly cause for me to react negatively and to believe that you're
not talking to people. I also don't think I am in any way wrong in my
assessment of your behavior being inappropriate.
You're clearly trying to gain from the legacy of TMI, whether or not
your underlying objectives are just. I certainly don't know what's in
your head, and don't care to judge that. But, if you think you have
some right to take this legacy, let's see it. You certainly haven't
handled it in a professional manner, whatever the case.
Edison
> As for the MudOS name, that can be an issue that can be discussed
> somewhere else. The MudOS project was a separate project that has
> merged with TMI-3. They are in their own endeavor to complete their
> task.
Done. Pre-emptively renamed gamedriver to MUM. I would have preferred to
continue to call it MudOS as a tribute to the old school MudOS hackers
like Truilkan.
-Ed.
vi...@securesoftware.com
you would have had the moral right to do that.
Timbo
>voted on Tmi-3 (no one has said no so far except for
>your objection here).
I didn't suggest a name to use, but I did say no to the name TMI-3. I
didn't argue about it because you had already made your mind up though.
Don't include me in this 'community' and claim that I (along with
other people, even) agreed to things which I didn't.
Since I haven't been helpful enough to contribute a name, my offering
is SapidMUD, because SapidLib is what you said the mudlib will be
called, when talking about it at
http://www.mudmagic.com/boards/bases/26/514/563/page3.htm
-Tim
somerville32
all of it's subprojects are still in the planning stage. People
complain about not contacting certain people to ask them for permission
to use the name "Tmi-3" or "MudOS" but we are _in_ that stage where we
do just that. We are setting up and getting ready to take these actions
that need to be taken. I completly understand where you people are
coming from and I appologize if you don't feel we took action quickly
enough.
Also, I want to further stress the point that th is is a community
project that is here to help revive the community; I hope that we can
all take pride and joy in working together to accomplish this task.
John Viega
name. This is incredibly wrong no matter what you are planning to do.
You didn't go to the obvious people and say, "can we use the name?".
Instead, you are using the name, and at best will go and say, "do you
mind?" It isn't going to come across too well, particularly since
you've been called on this in public.
Building a community is a good thing, and we wish you the best on that.
But you still should go take on your own name.