Medievia article
Wanda Lyons
: Sounds like the writer of the article was too lazy to find a real mud,
: an ethical mud. Maybe he found the address and Sultress' name in the
: men's bathroom...
:
Geeeze Randy.. are you the one that's been erasing my name off those
men's room walls? I went to a lot of trouble having it put there ya
know. The least you could do is to leave it alone. I guess you haven't been
successful in erasing all the walls though.. since the response to our
invite to join in the Adult Bedtime Story hour on the mud has been
tremendous. Every night at 10pm (pst) we've been swamped with people
showing up to listen to my very own bedtime stories. I guess a little
bathroom wall advertising works!
Sultress, Medievia IV
Come MUD with Me!
intense.netaxs.com 4000
Bedtime Stories every night 10pm (pst)! Adults Only! (not for the weak,
meek, or prudish)
--
________________________________________________________________________
Sin.. the Sultress of Medievia s...@netcom.com
Come MUD With Me! medievia.netaxs.com 4000
Scott G Cowell
Bedtime Stories every night 10pm (pst)! Adults Only! (not for the weak,
meek, or prudish)
Yet again reinforcing my opinion of Medievia - what a fucking joke. This
is called leading the way in MUD development?
-sc
Wanda Lyons
: Bedtime Stories every night 10pm (pst)! Adults Only! (not for the weak,
: meek, or prudish)
: Yet again reinforcing my opinion of Medievia - what a fucking joke. This
: is called leading the way in MUD development?
The joke is on you if you believed that crock of bull...
Sultress... who doesn't have time for silly stories or threads on rgmd.
Come MUD With Me!
198.69.186.36 4000
Matuse
>Scott G Cowell (cow...@tealblue.crayola.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
>: Bedtime Stories every night 10pm (pst)! Adults Only! (not for the weak,
>: meek, or prudish)
>
>: Yet again reinforcing my opinion of Medievia - what a fucking joke. This
>: is called leading the way in MUD development?
>
>The joke is on you if you believed that crock of bull...
>
>Sultress... who doesn't have time for silly stories or threads on rgmd.
And yet she does have time to respond to that article. I sort of wonder
how Vryce feels about that statement, since Sult was made a god in the
first place to hand newsgroup PR. Guess the all-night mudsex sessions
just take too much out of her.
Good thing she doesn't have to scroll through those 2 lines of credits on
the entry screen, or the lag would make the game unplayable.
--
{-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-}
{- Disclaimer1: All opinions expressed here, no matter how seemingly strange -}
{- and evil, are not only the author's, but are totally correct as well -}
{- Disclaimer2: Any spelling/grammar errors in this post are also the author's}
{- and if you bother to flame them, he'll just laugh his ass off at you. -}
{-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-}
Scott G Cowell
The joke is on you if you believed that crock of bull...
I guess so. Boy do I feel stupid. Dunno what could have led me to believe
that you'd be leading a group masturbation session. Guess it was my
belief that you'd fuck a goat if it would get Medievia more players.
Silly me.
Sultress... who doesn't have time for silly stories or threads on rgmd.
Then don't post here. You have nothing to contribute to any serious threads
anyway.
-sc
shepard todd emory
>-sc
Woohoo! It's on again! That good ol' MedThread(tm).
Wanda Lyons
: In article <sinCyo...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: >Scott G Cowell (cow...@tealblue.crayola.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
: >: Bedtime Stories every night 10pm (pst)! Adults Only! (not for the weak,
: >: meek, or prudish)
: >
: >: Yet again reinforcing my opinion of Medievia - what a fucking joke. This
: >: is called leading the way in MUD development?
: >
: >The joke is on you if you believed that crock of bull...
: >
: >Sultress... who doesn't have time for silly stories or threads on rgmd.
: And yet she does have time to respond to that article. I sort of wonder
: how Vryce feels about that statement, since Sult was made a god in the
: first place to hand newsgroup PR. Guess the all-night mudsex sessions
: just take too much out of her.
Well i don't know about you, but it doesn't take me a whole heck of a lot of
time to type out these silly little thread responses... and i'm not even
a fast typist. As far as how Vryce feels about what i post here, i can
only say that he has (thus far) been very supportive. Should he not agree
with what i do here, i have no doubt that he would let me know. He also
happens to have a great sense of humor, so i doubt he would be upset
about my bedtime story post. Now, if i were to go and post publically
about our all-night marathon mudsex orgies, or mention the new Dungeon of
Sin area located in the bowels of God mountain, or how we ... uhh.. gee i
better stop before i say too much.
too funny..
Sultress
Wanda Lyons
: The joke is on you if you believed that crock of bull...
: I guess so. Boy do I feel stupid. Dunno what could have led me to believe
: that you'd be leading a group masturbation session. Guess it was my
: belief that you'd fuck a goat if it would get Medievia more players.
: Silly me.
You ARE silly.. Scott, Medievia doesn't "need" any more players. At 100+
during prime time, we have plenty! Sorry to disappoint you when you
showed up looking for a circle jerk.. next time, make an appointment. As
for the goat, he was last week.. you missed a great show. :)
: Sultress... who doesn't have time for silly stories or threads on rgmd.
: Then don't post here. You have nothing to contribute to any serious threads
: anyway.
Thank you but i will post when and where i want. You don't know WHAT i
have to contribute.. you don't know *me* at all. Serious threads? Like
this one that you are contributing to? Since when did this group require
or even desire total seriousness? That's like asking for people to stop
the name calling and constant references to sexual misconduct. That's
like asking for people to stop the flaming and bickering and try being
truthful and compassionate.
Get real.. that doesn't happen in rl, why should it here?
Sultress, Medievia IV
Come MUD with me!
intense.netaxs.com 4000
Matuse
>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In article <sinCyo...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
>: >Scott G Cowell (cow...@tealblue.crayola.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
>: >: Bedtime Stories every night 10pm (pst)! Adults Only! (not for the weak,
>: >: meek, or prudish)
>: >
>: >: Yet again reinforcing my opinion of Medievia - what a fucking joke. This
>: >: is called leading the way in MUD development?
>: >
>: >The joke is on you if you believed that crock of bull...
>: >Sultress... who doesn't have time for silly stories or threads on rgmd.
>
>: And yet she does have time to respond to that article. I sort of wonder
>: how Vryce feels about that statement, since Sult was made a god in the
>: first place to hand newsgroup PR. Guess the all-night mudsex sessions
>: just take too much out of her.
>
>Well i don't know about you, but it doesn't take me a whole heck of a lot of
>time to type out these silly little thread responses... and i'm not even
>a fast typist. As far as how Vryce feels about what i post here, i can
>only say that he has (thus far) been very supportive. Should he not agree
>with what i do here, i have no doubt that he would let me know. He also
>happens to have a great sense of humor, so i doubt he would be upset
>about my bedtime story post. Now, if i were to go and post publically
>about our all-night marathon mudsex orgies, or mention the new Dungeon of
>Sin area located in the bowels of God mountain, or how we ... uhh.. gee i
>better stop before i say too much.
It never fails to amaze me how people can so willfully mis-interpret what
other people say, especially when actually acknowledging the opposition
would put them in a bad place, since an actual response would look feeble
at best.
So go ahead wanda, change the subject of the thread to get out of an
actual answer, and purposefully misinterpret what people say to suit your
needs, just makes you and your mud that much more pitiful.
ps: Anyone else notice how she oh-so-selectively deleted the bit about
the opening screen credits? No real surprise of course, her prodominating
logic seems to be "if i'm not right, i'll just ignore it"
Benjamin L. Greear
Every Man and Woman over the age of 12..and under too sometimes think's
constantly about sex and most of us can admit we want it. The only problem
seems to be that we spend all of our time mudding and perhaps even worse,
putting each other down over stupid stuff..just to pad our egos and in the
vain hope that someone somewhere will think we are a little better than
someone else. I figure most of you have probabbly ventured into NetSex of
some kind...I have.. I found it kinda cheezy and so now ignore it..but
leave other people alone if the like it. Besides...realize that not all
people are stupid...sarcasm can actually be found in this newsgroup too :P
As for all the baloney about the copyright and credits:
One question: (and you don't even have to tell me..just tell yourself the
truth)
Have you ever or do you now own a piece of shareware you have not registered?
There I thought so..I know I have a few lying around too.
Oh, and another thing, if any of yall use rn to read this group..how do you
include the text of the file you are replying too?
God bows to math...but I'll never bow to grammar.
Have happy lives..one day i'll have a .sig but until then,
Merrily Yours,
Ben Greear/ Grock/ Korg/ Korsage (of Jedi I hope soon)
Paul McClung
Heh.. I had to read that thread and chuckle.
100+ players on Med huh?
Well, this is gonan sound a tad like flameing, but its hopefully not to bad.
I've talked to some players on med and asked em what they think? I alwasy
seem to get responces like "Welll such and such, and this and that" etc...
etc... ad hoc infitum nausea.
Then I ask em, so why don't you leave?
And I get answers like 'Well, I got a <some weapon> or I just got my new
<some spell> or some other answer like that.
Those types of answers make me roll out of my chair laughing.
heh... laugh on and keep wallowing in the mud.
Paul McClung
--
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Wanda Lyons
: It never fails to amaze me how people can so willfully mis-interpret what
: other people say, especially when actually acknowledging the opposition
: would put them in a bad place, since an actual response would look feeble
: at best.
And it never ceases to amaze me how gullible and totally clueless some
people can be. Especially when they try and come off as the judge and
news group post police at the same time. A bullshit post gets a bullshit
response.
: So go ahead wanda, change the subject of the thread to get out of an
: actual answer, and purposefully misinterpret what people say to suit your
: needs, just makes you and your mud that much more pitiful.
Suit my needs? Please... You tell me what the actual question is and
you'll get an answer.
: ps: Anyone else notice how she oh-so-selectively deleted the bit about
: the opening screen credits? No real surprise of course, her prodominating
: logic seems to be "if i'm not right, i'll just ignore it"
The bit about the opening screen credits? Nothing like beating a subject
into the ground. I didn't ignore your stupid remark, it wasn't worth
responding to. I couldn't possibly say anything that i haven't said
already. And if i remember correctly you didn't ask anything, you just
made some sort remark about how it was a good thing i didnt have to
scroll through those "2 lines of text because the lag from ut would make
the game unplayable". Was that a question? Did i miss something here?
*IF* you have something to say or ask, seriously, do it. Why do you
constantly have to shove some sort sexual inuendo dig at me? Every thing
you write to me contains something of that nature. And when i respond
with an obviously scarcastic reply, you yell that i am changing the
subject to not respond to a question that exists only in your mind!
how can such an uncool person post from sucn a cool place? there outta
be a law....
Sultress of Sin
Wanda Lyons
: Well, this is gonan sound a tad like flameing, but its hopefully not to bad.
*boggle* Since WHEN did you worry about sounding like you are flaming
Medievia?
: I've talked to some players on med and asked em what they think? I alwasy
: seem to get responces like "Welll such and such, and this and that" etc...
: etc... ad hoc infitum nausea.
: Then I ask em, so why don't you leave?
: And I get answers like 'Well, I got a <some weapon> or I just got my new
: <some spell> or some other answer like that.
: Those types of answers make me roll out of my chair laughing.
Excuse me Paul.. i just *know* you were trying to make somesort of point
here, however i think you left out a few lines..
: heh... laugh on and keep wallowing in the mud.
ah... ! That explains it. Toxic mud... Better get outt there Paul..
before the damage is permanent.
Sultress, Medievia IV
Matuse
>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: It never fails to amaze me how people can so willfully mis-interpret what
>: other people say, especially when actually acknowledging the opposition
>: would put them in a bad place, since an actual response would look feeble
>: at best.
>
>And it never ceases to amaze me how gullible and totally clueless some
>people can be. Especially when they try and come off as the judge and
>news group post police at the same time. A bullshit post gets a bullshit
>response.
Uh, yea, ok. I don't consider myself the "judge and netcop" of any
newsgroup (well, except when people post Make.Money.Fast), if thats your
opinion of my posts, it remains just that: YOUR opinion.
>: So go ahead wanda, change the subject of the thread to get out of an
>: actual answer, and purposefully misinterpret what people say to suit your
>: needs, just makes you and your mud that much more pitiful.
>
>Suit my needs? Please... You tell me what the actual question is and
>you'll get an answer.
Ok:
1) If you don't have the time to respond to silly usenet threads, why do
you post here at all? (its all silly)
2) If your job for med is to handle usenet business, isn't this in direct
conflict with 1)?
3) Why do you (you meaning your mud) refuse to install the required
credits into your game?
>: ps: Anyone else notice how she oh-so-selectively deleted the bit about
>: the opening screen credits? No real surprise of course, her prodominating
>: logic seems to be "if i'm not right, i'll just ignore it"
>
>The bit about the opening screen credits? Nothing like beating a subject
>into the ground. I didn't ignore your stupid remark, it wasn't worth
>responding to. I couldn't possibly say anything that i haven't said
>already. And if i remember correctly you didn't ask anything, you just
>made some sort remark about how it was a good thing i didnt have to
>scroll through those "2 lines of text because the lag from ut would make
>the game unplayable". Was that a question? Did i miss something here?
Just because you are tired of a topic (and probably also tired of being
VASTLY in the wrong, yet unable to change your opinion, probably due to
some ego thing), doesn't make that topic less valid. I'm sick of hearing
people whining all the time in the news, that doesn't make their
particular whine any less justified.
>*IF* you have something to say or ask, seriously, do it. Why do you
>constantly have to shove some sort sexual inuendo dig at me? Every thing
>you write to me contains something of that nature. And when i respond
>with an obviously scarcastic reply, you yell that i am changing the
>subject to not respond to a question that exists only in your mind!
Funny, I don't see anything relating to sex at all (except what you
supplied yourself)
>how can such an uncool person post from sucn a cool place? there outta
>be a law....
How can such a dunce refuse to acknowledge when she and her head imp are
wrong? There outta be a law.
Angus Buchanan
I have tried a lot of mud and medieva is from far the best i found.. it is
user friendly, and the ansi colors don't look shitty..
C'mon if you don't like it just play somewhere else.. If it was so
shitty.. i don't understand why they are so many people calling everyday
and staying so many times on med..
btw sultress, is there a way to get the source for medieva? i am planning
on opening a mud, but i don't wanna mess up with the old diku and merc
bullshit..
Frantic,
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Chris Leonard
: Are all those guyz jaelous? Have you played Medieva?
: I have tried a lot of mud and medieva is from far the best i found.. it is
: user friendly, and the ansi colors don't look shitty..
: C'mon if you don't like it just play somewhere else.. If it was so
: shitty.. i don't understand why they are so many people calling everyday
: and staying so many times on med..
: btw sultress, is there a way to get the source for medieva? i am planning
: on opening a mud, but i don't wanna mess up with the old diku and merc
: bullshit..
: Frantic,
Good luck. I've asked several Gods what the steps are to
be a coder on medievia, and the answer is:
"No one sees the code, only IO and Vryce."
A small pet peeve really, but how can Medievia lead in mud-developement,
if it doesn't share any of its innovations with others who seek
to build worthy muds.
As to the crap about credits not included<shrug> Big deal. so they're in
violation.
and to the MudSex bit, are you trying to invalidate someones opinions
because of their prefrences?
That's a sure-fire sign of stupidity on your part.
And any flames to this, please take it to email.
I don't read this newsgroup regularly and it would be a shame in wasting
such responses.
PS> he who wishes to be a coder on medievia (feel free to relay that
to vryce)
Shawn L. Baird
>Are all those guyz jaelous? Have you played Medieva?
Yes, I've played Medievia.
>I have tried a lot of mud and medieva is from far the best i found.. it is
>user friendly, and the ansi colors don't look shitty..
It was fairly user friendly. I don't care for ANSI color much, so I wouldn't
know about that part.
>C'mon if you don't like it just play somewhere else.. If it was so
>shitty.. i don't understand why they are so many people calling everyday
>and staying so many times on med..
It's not a bad mud. One just wonders why a good mud refuses to give credit
to the original Diku team. Diku is what got the ball rolling and it deserves
its acknowledgement. Give me one reason why the effort of installing the
proper credits as according to the license agreement is such a bother? It
bothers me when people essentially steal something from someone else, enhance
it a bit, and call it their own. If they don't give credit in the way the
original Diku creators ask, they're doing just that, regardless of wherever
else they may credit them. It's akin to getting FSF licensed GNU software
and not following the GNU public license. I don't really agree with the FSF
on a great number of things, but still when using their software I abide by
their license terms. Is that so hard to understand? They didn't have to
release their software at all, so by abiding by their license agreements I am
saying that I respect their rights to maintain control over their brainchild,
even if I don't agree with the way they are doing it. Now, if the Diku
license was fairly taxing maybe there'd be some excuse. But surely adding
the names of a few people who created the base of the game used by Medievia
isn't completely out of order.
>btw sultress, is there a way to get the source for medieva? i am planning
>on opening a mud, but i don't wanna mess up with the old diku and merc
>bullshit..
Write your own and avoid all the bullshit. If you can't program, don't open
a mud at all, as it will never compete. (Or at least, don't open it with the
expectation that hordes of people are going to come and visit you.) If you
can code and want to start with a clean base, Circle isn't so bad. Gamma
Diku isn't even full of that many bugs. I haven't seen many cases where a
gamma server has been released with bug patches only though. Most of us who
have worked with it could probably give you a reasonably accurate list of
what they are, however. I doubt you'll be able to get the source for
Medievia, as when you flout around claiming to be the "future of mudding,"
you aren't likely to invite "competition."
Shawn L. Baird
>As to the crap about credits not included<shrug> Big deal. so they're in
>violation.
Well, the real bit of curiosity for me is, why don't they just do it? In
other words, we make a big fuss about it here, yes, but if it isn't such a
big fuss, why don't they just put it in? Apparently they see it as a big
deal as well. Or perhaps it's an ego thing, as I suspect. Anytime you
see "the best MUD" or a similar phrase being spouted at you by the server
itself, I think it's time to turn around and run. :)
Matuse
>Are all those guyz jaelous? Have you played Medieva?
Jealous....of medeivia...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I just want to thank you for giving me the biggest laugh of the week.
>I have tried a lot of mud and medieva is from far the best i found.. it is
>user friendly, and the ansi colors don't look shitty..
The ansi colors are probably the worst of any i've seen (and i'm not a
big fan of it in the first place). Your screen looks like a bedecked
christmas tree, with every single line in a different (and very annoying)
color.
>C'mon if you don't like it just play somewhere else.. If it was so
>shitty.. i don't understand why they are so many people calling everyday
>and staying so many times on med..
I *DO* play somewhere else. And I've talked to some people there...quite
a few of them, when asked why they play responded with such gems as "well
i just got a new sword that is really cool, so i don't want to leave" or
"well, i just don't want to be a newbie anywhere else, other muds are so
hard"
>btw sultress, is there a way to get the source for medieva? i am planning
>on opening a mud, but i don't wanna mess up with the old diku and merc
>bullshit..
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! My second best laugh of the day. Vryce won't
give 2 lines of credit, why in hell do you think he is going to give
anyone his precious source code? If you don't wanna mess up with old diku
and merc, then LEARN TO CODE. If all you want to do is take med source
and run it out of the box, how much of a loser are you? (Can you say BIIIIIIG
LOSER boys and girls? I knew you could).
Angus Buchanan
: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! My second best laugh of the day. Vryce won't
: give 2 lines of credit, why in hell do you think he is going to give
: anyone his precious source code? If you don't wanna mess up with old diku
: and merc, then LEARN TO CODE. If all you want to do is take med source
: and run it out of the box, how much of a loser are you?
ahah right i didn't want to put the diku credits.. i don't like the word
diku it is obscene.. enough jokin'.. never mind i code on a circle
base..never mind.. or just hack vryce's host (joke)..
frantic.
Wanda Lyons
: In article <sinCyt...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: >And it never ceases to amaze me how gullible and totally clueless some
: >people can be. Especially when they try and come off as the judge and
: >news group post police at the same time. A bullshit post gets a bullshit
: >response.
: Uh, yea, ok. I don't consider myself the "judge and netcop" of any
: newsgroup (well, except when people post Make.Money.Fast), if thats your
: opinion of my posts, it remains just that: YOUR opinion.
uuuhhh yeah. no kidding. Everything everyone says here is just that,
their opinion. Unless they are quoting some statistic or someone else.
: Ok:
: 1) If you don't have the time to respond to silly usenet threads, why do
: you post here at all? (its all silly)
: 2) If your job for med is to handle usenet business, isn't this in direct
: conflict with 1)?
: 3) Why do you (you meaning your mud) refuse to install the required
: credits into your game?
1 & 2) The term "silly" is highly subjective. Your silly and my silly are
not the same i am sure. What is silly to me today, may not be silly to me
tomorrow. Having to actually write this here and now is in my opinion
even sillier still. Whether or not it is "all" silly is subject to the
same. Since i am replying to this, i will have to withdraw my earlier
statement that i don't have time for "silly usenet threads" as i
obviously took the time to reply to this. As for it being in conflict
with my job... not at all. My boss thinks i reply to too much silliness
as it is.
3) Pay attention this time, better yet, log it.
The original code (whatever diku/merc version it was) has long since been
abandoned from what runs Medievia IV today. The code was rewritten
creating Medievia II, totaly recoded for Medievia III and still more
coding tossed and new code added creating Medievia IV. I believe the
only module still containing any original code is the help system. (For
any more detail than that, you'll need to get it from the coders) At any
rate, that there have been countless hours put into it is unquestionable.
That it was originally based on another's source is not denied. They are
given full credit for their contribution. However, their names are NOT on
the opening screen. Then again, neither is Vryce's.
No, this isn't what the license.doc requires, but then how diluted does
the code need to be before compliance to that degree becomes optional?
Obviously, Vryce feels he reached that saturation point some time ago. I
agree with him. Having played on a number of other muds, there is a vast
difference in Medievia and other similar based muds. Even those who also
claim to have rewritten their muds, still retain much more of an "out of
the box" feel compared to Medievia IV.
That there isn't more flexibility in where their names are shown, is
unfortunate. On the otherhand, they wrote it, they can require whatever
they want in order to grant it's use, right? It is up to the individual
coder whether or not he uses it or not. I understand that. It is also up
to the coder to determine when he has replaced enough of that original
code to the point that he doesn't feel compelled to follow their request
to the letter.
What it comes down to, is we just don't WANT to see them names on our
login screen. We don't wanna see ANYbody's name. So there aren't any. If
Vryce was trying to NOT give credit where credit is due, they wouldn't be
listed under the credit command either.
You along with many others, may not agree with this. That is up to you.
I am not here to attempt to change your mind, nor to justify Vryce and
myself to you. You asked why, and that is what you got, *MY* opinion as
to why.
: Just because you are tired of a topic (and probably also tired of being
: VASTLY in the wrong, yet unable to change your opinion, probably due to
: some ego thing), doesn't make that topic less valid. I'm sick of hearing
: people whining all the time in the news, that doesn't make their
: particular whine any less justified.
That we are "VASTLY in the wrong", is YOUR opinion, nothing more. That
it is "some ego thing" is ALSO your opinion, and one that couldn't be
further from the truth. I am tired of the topic because it is pointless
to continue the discussion. Whines are never justified. If you can't get
your complaint satisfied once it has been heard, what is the point in
continuing to spam the rest of us with it over and over again?
: >*IF* you have something to say or ask, seriously, do it. Why do you
: >constantly have to shove some sort sexual inuendo dig at me? Every thing
: >you write to me contains something of that nature. And when i respond
: >with an obviously scarcastic reply, you yell that i am changing the
: >subject to not respond to a question that exists only in your mind!
: Funny, I don't see anything relating to sex at all (except what you
: supplied yourself)
Go do a search on your posts in this thread. If you still can't find
anything, i'll go back and quote them for you.
: >how can such an uncool person post from sucn a cool place? there outta
: >be a law....
: How can such a dunce refuse to acknowledge when she and her head imp are
: wrong? There outta be a law.
*Yawn* Can't you come up with something original for a change?
Sultress..
Matuse
Ok, if Med is so vastly changed and different from original diku (and merc!!)
then why the hell are you posting anything relating to it in this newsgroup?
Pay close attention to the title: rec.games.mud.DIKU. If you aren't a
dikumud anymore (as you claim) then either petition for your own group,
or take your posts and other assorted bullshit to r.g.m.misc. If you post
here, you are running a DIKUMUD, and if you run a dikumud, then you are
*REQUIRED* to follow the terms of the license.doc (which, when it all
boils down, are such insignificant requirements its laughable).
>: >how can such an uncool person post from sucn a cool place? there outta
>: >be a law....
>: How can such a dunce refuse to acknowledge when she and her head imp are
>: wrong? There outta be a law.
>*Yawn* Can't you come up with something original for a change?
Can't you come up with something more original than these ever-present
*yawn*s? Seems like every post has one, you'd might as well just stick it
in your .sig. And if the threads bore you that much, go away.
Wanda Lyons
: In article <sinCyx...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: Ok, if Med is so vastly changed and different from original diku (and merc!!)
: then why the hell are you posting anything relating to it in this newsgroup?
Because i can.
: Pay close attention to the title: rec.games.mud.DIKU. If you aren't a
: dikumud anymore (as you claim) then either petition for your own group,
: or take your posts and other assorted bullshit to r.g.m.misc. If you post
: here, you are running a DIKUMUD, and if you run a dikumud, then you are
: *REQUIRED* to follow the terms of the license.doc (which, when it all
: boils down, are such insignificant requirements its laughable).
YOU pay close attention. This is a PUBLIC net, or hadn't you heard? Don't
you think it is about time you took off that Net Police Chief costume??
Halloween is over. I don't need permission from YOU to post here, nor do
i need to meet any qualifications you spew forth. Since it all boils down
to such insignificant laughable requirements, then you won't mind if i
ignore them, now will you?
: >: >how can such an uncool person post from sucn a cool place? there outta
: >: >be a law....
: >: How can such a dunce refuse to acknowledge when she and her head imp are
: >: wrong? There outta be a law.
: >*Yawn* Can't you come up with something original for a change?
: Can't you come up with something more original than these ever-present
: *yawn*s? Seems like every post has one, you'd might as well just stick it
: in your .sig. And if the threads bore you that much, go away.
EVERY post has a *yawn* in it? That was the second time. You can't think
up anything halfway true so you just say anything, doncha? I won't
venture to tell you what YOU can stick in YOUR .sig.
Sultress.. who is here to torment you
Shawn L. Baird
>3) Pay attention this time, better yet, log it.
>The original code (whatever diku/merc version it was) has long since been
>abandoned from what runs Medievia IV today. The code was rewritten
>creating Medievia II, totaly recoded for Medievia III and still more
>coding tossed and new code added creating Medievia IV. I believe the
>only module still containing any original code is the help system. (For
Uh ... sure. You're going to tell me that something that feels like a Diku,
plays a Diku, and was originally based off of Diku code has only the help
system left to be replaced? I doubt it. Remember that when you go into a
function and add:
/* we're like totally cool */
it doesn't get construed as having changed that function totally from the
original. Of course, I suppose the "gods" of Medievia wouldn't be willing
to submit to an informal review of whether or not this is the case ...
*snicker* If you rewrote the whole damned MUD and it does still work like
that though, I pity them for being even worse coders than I had imagined.
*grin*
>You along with many others, may not agree with this. That is up to you.
>I am not here to attempt to change your mind, nor to justify Vryce and
>myself to you. You asked why, and that is what you got, *MY* opinion as
>to why.
I think we were more curious about the facts why, but I doubt we shall
ever see them.
>*Yawn* Can't you come up with something original for a change?
Why should we? Medievia didn't. *loud laughter*
Matuse
>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In article <sinCyx...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
>: Ok, if Med is so vastly changed and different from original diku (and merc!!)
>: then why the hell are you posting anything relating to it in this newsgroup?
>
>Because i can.
Well then I'll just go on over to rec.games.mud.tiny and *.lp and start
posting ads for every diku!!! Of course, why pay attention to nettiquete
and common sense when I can do something just cause i want to!
>: Pay close attention to the title: rec.games.mud.DIKU. If you aren't a
>: dikumud anymore (as you claim) then either petition for your own group,
>: or take your posts and other assorted bullshit to r.g.m.misc. If you post
>: here, you are running a DIKUMUD, and if you run a dikumud, then you are
>: *REQUIRED* to follow the terms of the license.doc (which, when it all
>: boils down, are such insignificant requirements its laughable).
>
>YOU pay close attention. This is a PUBLIC net, or hadn't you heard? Don't
>you think it is about time you took off that Net Police Chief costume??
>Halloween is over. I don't need permission from YOU to post here, nor do
>i need to meet any qualifications you spew forth. Since it all boils down
>to such insignificant laughable requirements, then you won't mind if i
>ignore them, now will you?
Yea, its a public net, but (most) everyone accepts that you do certain
things in certain places. By your argument I'll go start posting binaries
on non-binary groups, and have low-volumne sites take those groups
off..won't that make me a popular fellow? Posting in-appropriate messages
to groups is 1) Rude, 2) Stupid, 3) Waste of time/space/memory
Its jus the fact that the requirements so so insignificant that I *won't*
let you ignore them. *2* fucking lines at the login screen, and all the
flammage and general hatred would END. Is that really so much? No, its
really not.
Btw: Your now constant attempts to portray me as some sort of horrible NetCop
are not going to deflect me (or any other reasonably intelligent person) from
a topic you find uncomfortable/don't want to listen to anymore.
>: Can't you come up with something more original than these ever-present
>: *yawn*s? Seems like every post has one, you'd might as well just stick it
>: in your .sig. And if the threads bore you that much, go away.
>
>EVERY post has a *yawn* in it? That was the second time. You can't think
>up anything halfway true so you just say anything, doncha? I won't
>venture to tell you what YOU can stick in YOUR .sig.
Oh please, I would just LOVE to hear what I can stick in my .sig. Please
tell me, I'm almost dying of anticipation.
And you have a pretty selective memory if you think you've only posted
the *yawn* twice. Those two times are just in the past couple days.
Before that, I can think of about 4 times (unfortunately they've all long
since scrolled off my reader, so I couldn't tell you article #s (also its
really not worth scrolling through 200 posts to find it)) when you did it.
I'm sure Kris can remember at least 2...you both had a large war over Med
creds and sojourn where you replied to most of his comments with it.
>Sultress.. who is here to torment you
Yet failing badly.
Matt - Hardly tormented
Schultz, Russell
discuss something _VAGUELY_ related to DIKU muds(like spam, or maybe
chihuahuas).
Russ/Poo...@ronin.bchs.uh.edu 5000
Speaking of which, this Anothermud concept of 'mini' rooms is vaguely
interesting to me. Another step, it seems, to the 'online ultima' idea
that (imho) muds are here to provide. Though 'fluffy' they're not
terribly large space wasters, and add a sense of size to the mud.
How will other chars movements be charted? or is visibility 'same
square' only? Does the map center around the player? A continuous
update? (hmm...perhaps i should get on and see this....nah, i'll just
waste my bandwidth here by asking questions)
Timothy Mark Lawless
[Stuff about silly stuff deleted]
: 3) Pay attention this time, better yet, log it.
: The original code (whatever diku/merc version it was) has long since been
: abandoned from what runs Medievia IV today. The code was rewritten
^^^^^^^^^
: creating Medievia II, totaly recoded for Medievia III and still more
: coding tossed and new code added creating Medievia IV. I believe the
: only module still containing any original code is the help system. (For
: any more detail than that, you'll need to get it from the coders) At any
: rate, that there have been countless hours put into it is unquestionable.
: That it was originally based on another's source is not denied. They are
: given full credit for their contribution. However, their names are NOT on
: the opening screen. Then again, neither is Vryce's.
3.1 If you Base your writing on another's Writings and do not cite them,
That is plagerism. Granted You have the Credits command. It was only
installed after an earlier thread that was thought to have died, but
alas, like a festering sore, it remains.
3.2 (Q?) Are the structures the same? Do you use char_data for mobs and players?
OBJ_DATA for objs? ROOM_INDEX_DATA for Rooms? You can claim to have
rewritten it. (Well, not you, since all you do is post to usenet, but
INTENSE Software, Who owns it.)
3.3 (Q?) Why would someone recode all the object manipulation commands, and
Yet have them work (Player's Perspective) The same way? It would not
Have any puprpose unless one wanted to sell a diku 'look and feel' mud
(or service) ( Re: Apple, Microsoft, and look and feel)
: No, this isn't what the license.doc requires, but then how diluted does
^^^^^^^|
YES IT IS! READ THE DIKU LISENCE DOCUMENT!!! |
If it was REWRITTEN how
can it be diluted?
: the code need to be before compliance to that degree becomes optional?
: Obviously, Vryce feels he reached that saturation point some time ago. I
: agree with him. Having played on a number of other muds, there is a vast
: difference in Medievia and other similar based muds. Even those who also
: claim to have rewritten their muds, still retain much more of an "out of
: the box" feel compared to Medievia IV.
*Humms silently to self*
: That there isn't more flexibility in where their names are shown, is
: unfortunate. On the otherhand, they wrote it, they can require whatever
: they want in order to grant it's use, right? It is up to the individual
: coder whether or not he uses it or not. I understand that. It is also up
: to the coder to determine when he has replaced enough of that original
: code to the point that he doesn't feel compelled to follow their request
: to the letter.
So, Hypotheticly speaking, If Vryce did release his code, i could change
one line and claim that it is mine since i have determined that i have
replaced enough of the original code to the point *I* dont' feel compelled
to follow their request to the letter.
: What it comes down to, is we just don't WANT to see them names on our
: login screen. We don't wanna see ANYbody's name. So there aren't any. If
Verry well said. Its not that you don't have to, You just don't want to
comply. Like millions of people don't WANT to comply with software lisences
and Distribute pirated copies. But, its all right if you don't WANT
to do it.
: Vryce was trying to NOT give credit where credit is due, they wouldn't be
: listed under the credit command either.
Used to be they WERN'T. It was the bitching and moaning here that got them.
: You along with many others, may not agree with this. That is up to you.
: I am not here to attempt to change your mind, nor to justify Vryce and
: myself to you. You asked why, and that is what you got, *MY* opinion as
: to why.
:
: : Just because you are tired of a topic (and probably also tired of being
: : VASTLY in the wrong, yet unable to change your opinion, probably due to
: : some ego thing), doesn't make that topic less valid. I'm sick of hearing
: : people whining all the time in the news, that doesn't make their
: : particular whine any less justified.
: That we are "VASTLY in the wrong", is YOUR opinion, nothing more. That
: it is "some ego thing" is ALSO your opinion, and one that couldn't be
: further from the truth. I am tired of the topic because it is pointless
I assume that it is your opinion that that opinion is Far from the truth?
Or is it Fact? :)
--
______ _ _
/ _/_ / _// //
--/ o ______ ____/ /_ __ , / __. , , , // _ _ _
(_/ <_/ / / <_(_) (__/ /_/ (_/ /___ (_/|_(_(_/_</_</_/_)_/_)_
"Trust me, I know what I / tlaw...@whale.st.usm.edu
am doing...I think." '
Derek Snider
: 3) Why do you (you meaning your mud) refuse to install the required
: credits into your game?
Credits credits credits... that's all anyone whines about around here.
Look... I've had this investigated by lawyers. When you modify something
to a certain point, your inherit it. If you're telling me that Medievia
isn't 70% different than DikuMUD Gamma 0.0, (which you'd have to have
actually seen the SOURCE CODE to tell for sure), then maybe you could
complain...
Even if Medievia WASN'T 70% different, the DikuMUD team, (not *YOU*)
would have to do the complaining. (Which they have)
And for their complaining to hold much ground, they'd have to prove that
Medievia, through not putting the credits on the screen, caused them some
sort of damage.
Since DikuMUD is *FREE*... they can't say they lost any money.
Even if it wasn't free... Medievia isn't *SELLING* it, or *CHARGING* for
its use.
Medievia, like Realms of Despair, is offering their mud to all of the
Internet as a *FREE* service. Do you think it costs NOTHING to run a
MUD like Medievia? From what I gathered, Medievia has a dedicated machine,
with over 32 Megs of RAM, enough disk space for the thousands and thousands
of player files, logs, areas, data files, source code, etc... plus an
Internet connection of high bandwidth (apparently a T3), which is FAR from
inexpensive.
It costs Medievia money to run... but they let people from all over the
world play it for free. As do we at Realms of Despair.
The operators have spent considerable time and effort developing and
maintaining the mud, which is far different from some college student
taking a stock Diku or Merc mud, changing a few bits of text, and running
it from the college, (without sysadmin permission), and probably won't
stay up for more than a few weeks, if that.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Telnet to our mud ... Realms of Despair ---> mud.compulink.com 4000
Or join our International Teleconference ---> chat.compulink.com 9000
Mark Lewis
<stuff that I deleted, find it elsewhere>
: Sultress, Medievia IV
: Come MUD with me!
: intense.netaxs.com 4000
<wrote stuff that I deleted...but only because I wanted to make this
short and sweet> <or was that sweat?>
I would like to say that I visited Medievia once...just to look, and
I was very happy for them that so many mudders were on. There, it's
said.
My real reason for replying to this thread is to say that I have always
liked reading from Sultress. She has always written interesting stuff
and written it well. So there. It's said. :}
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MORT
)))) EARTHQUAKE (((( )))) EARTHQUAKE ((((
The GOD of LIGHT
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUD.PRIMENET.COM 4000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eric Kidder
debate...about having people put notices on. Personally, I think
Med. is wrong here...BTW, I have played the MUD, it isn't that hot.
The colors kinda suck (I don't like rainbows on my screen)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric James Kidder "They say in Hamburg, in the spring time,
also at the boys party so much, you can skate home
kidd...@expert.cc.purdue.edu in the sick." -- Dieter (from Sprockets)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wanda Lyons
: s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: >*Yawn* Can't you come up with something original for a change?
: Why should we? Medievia didn't. *loud laughter*
How would you know?? Ever play there?
Sulty
Matuse
>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: 3) Why do you (you meaning your mud) refuse to install the required
>: credits into your game?
>
>Credits credits credits... that's all anyone whines about around here.
>
>Look... I've had this investigated by lawyers. When you modify something
>to a certain point, your inherit it. If you're telling me that Medievia
>isn't 70% different than DikuMUD Gamma 0.0, (which you'd have to have
>actually seen the SOURCE CODE to tell for sure), then maybe you could
>complain...
>
>Even if Medievia WASN'T 70% different, the DikuMUD team, (not *YOU*)
>would have to do the complaining. (Which they have)
>And for their complaining to hold much ground, they'd have to prove that
>Medievia, through not putting the credits on the screen, caused them some
>sort of damage.
>Since DikuMUD is *FREE*... they can't say they lost any money.
>Even if it wasn't free... Medievia isn't *SELLING* it, or *CHARGING* for
>its use.
Almost never before in my life have a heard such an outpour of bullshit.
Maybe you don't keep track on some current NetEvents, but TSR is forcing
people to not post articles relating to their games, forcing sysadmins
with suits of they don't remove (non copyrighted!!!) netbooks from their
FTP sites, and a whole bunch of other shit from people who aren't
*SELLING* anything or *CHARGING* for anything. I'll drop a line to Rob
Repp, their net-representative as to your mud, and very soon after you'll get
a note from TSR that they might sue you if you continue to use TSR ideas,
tables, etc.
Besides, changing the inside doesn't matter anywhere near as much as the
outside.
FACT: Your mud is a STOCK MERC from the players point of view, yes it has
color and vampires, but...big deal, those are puny changes, and as far as
i can tell, *NOTHING* else has been changed from the players point of view.
If i went through some classic song (mozart, beethovan, etc), and changed
what 70% of the notes looked like...no matter what it looks like on the
paper, it still sounds the same when the band strikes up.
>Medievia, like Realms of Despair, is offering their mud to all of the
>Internet as a *FREE* service. Do you think it costs NOTHING to run a
>MUD like Medievia? From what I gathered, Medievia has a dedicated machine,
>with over 32 Megs of RAM, enough disk space for the thousands and thousands
>of player files, logs, areas, data files, source code, etc... plus an
>Internet connection of high bandwidth (apparently a T3), which is FAR from
>inexpensive.
And the schools that host other muds pay the exact same amounts, yet they
don't charge anyone for the exact same (and usually MORE) resources.
>It costs Medievia money to run... but they let people from all over the
>world play it for free. As do we at Realms of Despair.
This is because you both know that your muds are so feeble that if you
tried to charge, people would leave in droves for the superior (and still
free!) muds where are out there. Not only that, but your grand "look how
generous i am" defense would fall on its face, and would give the
diku/merc authors a very legitimite ground to sue your ass into the pavement.
>The operators have spent considerable time and effort developing and
>maintaining the mud, which is far different from some college student
>taking a stock Diku or Merc mud, changing a few bits of text, and running
>it from the college, (without sysadmin permission), and probably won't
>stay up for more than a few weeks, if that.
Its a funny thing, but muds like the one you describe go away after not
even a couple weeks (especially if they don't have their sysadmin's
permission) no-one plays them after very long, and they die from lack of
interest, if the imps doesn't get bored with it first. But lets look at
some muds (run from schools!) that have lasted a *LOOOOOOOOONG* time with
dedicated *STUDENT* imps with lots of players.
Alex (4 years now?)
Epic (in its many incarnations)
Silly (3 years? fairly widely used source code)
Circle (more muds openeing up on this code recently than mercs :) )
Grimne (easily 3 1/2 years up now, still going strong)
As soon as your feeble mud is fit to join this (rather incomplete) list
(and no, you are not the one to judge when this is, everyone else in the
mudding community is) then you can claim to be superior to the other
out-of-the-box muds (of which yours most certainly is).
Shawn L. Baird
>The operators have spent considerable time and effort developing and
>maintaining the mud, which is far different from some college student
>taking a stock Diku or Merc mud, changing a few bits of text, and running
>it from the college, (without sysadmin permission), and probably won't
>stay up for more than a few weeks, if that.
I, for one, do not say that the people doing work on a MUD should not
receive credit for it. I just also feel that those who have worked on it
in the past should as well. No matter how much you modify a Diku, you're
doing just that, modifying it. I don't care if you replace 100% of the
code. It's not about legality, it's about common courtesy. The Diku
people, whose code you based your system off of, didn't have to license
the code to you for free either. They also spent considerable time and
effort developing the stock Diku code. Don't they deserve credit and
common courtesy as well?
Shawn L. Baird
>: Why should we? Medievia didn't. *loud laughter*
>How would you know?? Ever play there?
Yep. As you would recognize from my previous articles. My most recent
one explains in more detail. It's okay, most people here are so stuck in
the Diku rut they wouldn't know a new idea if it bonked them in the head.
No, new ideas aren't always better ideas. One usually has to try them out
first and I'll be the first to admit to a lot of failed experiments along
the way. :/ Medievia does what it seeks to be fairly well, I think. It
isn't even remotely close to my idea of what a MUD should be, but that
doesn't really matter. The two most objectional things I can think of is
this refusal to acknowledge that the MUD is still a Diku and still holds
Diku at its roots, and secondly that it is far overhyped.
Russ Taylor
> Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
> : 3) Why do you (you meaning your mud) refuse to install the required
> : credits into your game?
> Credits credits credits... that's all anyone whines about around here.
> Look... I've had this investigated by lawyers. When you modify something
> to a certain point, your inherit it. If you're telling me that Medievia
> isn't 70% different than DikuMUD Gamma 0.0, (which you'd have to have
> actually seen the SOURCE CODE to tell for sure), then maybe you could
> complain...
That's nice, please post a reference with a phone number to contact
these lawyers?
> Even if Medievia WASN'T 70% different, the DikuMUD team, (not *YOU*)
> would have to do the complaining. (Which they have)
> And for their complaining to hold much ground, they'd have to prove that
> Medievia, through not putting the credits on the screen, caused them some
> sort of damage.
> Since DikuMUD is *FREE*... they can't say they lost any money.
> Even if it wasn't free... Medievia isn't *SELLING* it, or *CHARGING* for
> its use.
It doesn't matter, stealing a free item is still stealing.
> Medievia, like Realms of Despair, is offering their mud to all of the
> Internet as a *FREE* service. Do you think it costs NOTHING to run a
> MUD like Medievia? From what I gathered, Medievia has a dedicated machine,
> with over 32 Megs of RAM, enough disk space for the thousands and thousands
> of player files, logs, areas, data files, source code, etc... plus an
> Internet connection of high bandwidth (apparently a T3), which is FAR from
> inexpensive.
> It costs Medievia money to run... but they let people from all over the
> world play it for free. As do we at Realms of Despair.
*sniff* such noble fellows! I really shed a tear for their SELFLESS efforts.
> The operators have spent considerable time and effort developing and
> maintaining the mud, which is far different from some college student
> taking a stock Diku or Merc mud, changing a few bits of text, and running
> it from the college, (without sysadmin permission), and probably won't
> stay up for more than a few weeks, if that.
Your mud is nowhere near the quality of several notable muds that are
.edu or formerly .edu games. BTW, changing a few bits of text is EXACTLY
what you did with Midgaard, yet you never seem to acknowledge that fact.
--
"Have you ever seen a communist drink a glass of water?
Darrin Bright
>: 3) Why do you (you meaning your mud) refuse to install the required
>: credits into your game?
>
>Credits credits credits... that's all anyone whines about around here.
>
>Look... I've had this investigated by lawyers. When you modify something
>to a certain point, your inherit it. If you're telling me that Medievia
>isn't 70% different than DikuMUD Gamma 0.0, (which you'd have to have
>actually seen the SOURCE CODE to tell for sure), then maybe you could
>complain...
It is not merely a question of credit. It is a question of *RESPECT*.
Frankly, I doubt you've changed 70%, but then I don't really care.
>Even if Medievia WASN'T 70% different, the DikuMUD team, (not *YOU*)
>would have to do the complaining. (Which they have)
>And for their complaining to hold much ground, they'd have to prove that
>Medievia, through not putting the credits on the screen, caused them some
>sort of damage.
>Since DikuMUD is *FREE*... they can't say they lost any money.
>Even if it wasn't free... Medievia isn't *SELLING* it, or *CHARGING* for
>its use.
>
>Medievia, like Realms of Despair, is offering their mud to all of the
>Internet as a *FREE* service. Do you think it costs NOTHING to run a
>MUD like Medievia? From what I gathered, Medievia has a dedicated machine,
>with over 32 Megs of RAM, enough disk space for the thousands and thousands
>of player files, logs, areas, data files, source code, etc... plus an
>Internet connection of high bandwidth (apparently a T3), which is FAR from
>inexpensive.
Why do you keep waving this statement around like a club? I know of
HUNDREDS of free muds, even those on commercial systems which are not free,
who do NOT complain about it like you do. Fine, if you think you're doing
the entire world a service by putting up a free mud, then go ahead and be
happy. But if you expect me to give a damn... *shrug* HUNDREDS of free
muds are already out there who don't whine about costs.
>It costs Medievia money to run... but they let people from all over the
>world play it for free. As do we at Realms of Despair.
TAANSTAAFL. I am still unimpressed.
Ezra of the People's Front of Judea
Wanda Jackson-Lyons
Timothy Mark Lawless <tlaw...@whale.st.usm.edu> wrote:
<lots and lots of stuff deleted>
Pav...
I'm not about to get into a debate with you about Medievia. You were a
god there a lot longer than i have been. Why you resigned, i don't know.
Considering the questions you've asked here, i can only assume it was
because of differences of opinion between the two of you. I can't
comment on that because i don't know anything about it. The other things
you asked, are beyond my scope of involvement as far as the MUD goes..
.. but then, you already knew that, didn't you?
Come on Pav.. if you have a beef with Vryce.. mail him personally. I
can't answer for him.
>So, Hypotheticly speaking, If Vryce did release his code, i could change
>one line and claim that it is mine since i have determined that i have
>replaced enough of the original code to the point *I* dont' feel compelled
>to follow their request to the letter.
Sure you could. Whether or not you were legally right, morally right,
are different stories. Then again, we both know that Vryce isn't
releasing his code anytime soon. :)
>: What it comes down to, is we just don't WANT to see them names on our
>: login screen. We don't wanna see ANYbody's name. So there aren't any. If
>
>Verry well said. Its not that you don't have to, You just don't want to
>comply. Like millions of people don't WANT to comply with software lisences
>and Distribute pirated copies. But, its all right if you don't WANT
>to do it.
Not the same thing.. not even close.
>: Vryce was trying to NOT give credit where credit is due, they wouldn't be
>: listed under the credit command either.
>Used to be they WERN'T. It was the bitching and moaning here that got them.
That was then, this is now. And even if he were to put the names on that
screen, we would STILL hear about how they USED to not be there for
eternity...
>I assume that it is your opinion that that opinion is Far from the truth?
>Or is it Fact? :)
All you have here Pav, is *my* opinion.. as usual. What it is worth to
you or anyone else here, is up to you. I won't be losing any sleep over
it though :)
If you wanna REALLY talk about any of this or anything else, come see me
on the MUD.. we live in the same building (the Keep) you know :) (Or
Sindy does anyway)
Sultress..
198.69.186.36 4000
--
wa...@btree.brooktree.com * s...@netcom.com * UUCP: ...ucsd!btree!wanda
Matuse
>In article <39p22d$i...@server.st.usm.edu>,
>Timothy Mark Lawless <tlaw...@whale.st.usm.edu> wrote:
>>: Vryce was trying to NOT give credit where credit is due, they wouldn't be
>>: listed under the credit command either.
>
>>Used to be they WERN'T. It was the bitching and moaning here that got them.
>
>That was then, this is now. And even if he were to put the names on that
>screen, we would STILL hear about how they USED to not be there for
>eternity...
Bzzzzzzz, wrong. Once Vryce placed the credits command, complaint about
this stopped *IMMEDIATELY*. I was the first person to mention that this
was a GoodThing(tm). The only time its mentioned now is in reference to
"well you went this far, why not finish it?".
If he installed the credits, then people would stop this issue, and
solely concentrate on what they perceive are medievias other faults ;)
Plus it would free up bandwidth to flame Thoric, and you can't argue with
that reasoning :)
Wanda Lyons
: <wrote stuff that I deleted...but only because I wanted to make this
: short and sweet> <or was that sweat?>
: I would like to say that I visited Medievia once...just to look, and
: I was very happy for them that so many mudders were on. There, it's
: said.
: My real reason for replying to this thread is to say that I have always
: liked reading from Sultress. She has always written interesting stuff
: and written it well. So there. It's said. :}
What a sweetie you are! <and that's sweetie not sweatie :)>
I appreciate your comments and look forward to your next(?) visit. Do
come and look me up.. i'll give ya the grand tour... }:>
Sultress
@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@@@@
@@! @@! @@! @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
@!! !!@ @!@ @!!!:! @!@ !@! !!@ @!!!:! @!@ !@! !!@ @!@!@!@!
!!: !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: !: .:! !!: !!: !!!
: : : :: ::: :: : : : : :: ::: :: : : : :
intense.netaxs.com 4000 198.69.186.36 4000
Wanda Lyons
: I, for one, do not say that the people doing work on a MUD should not
: receive credit for it. I just also feel that those who have worked on it
: in the past should as well. No matter how much you modify a Diku, you're
: doing just that, modifying it. I don't care if you replace 100% of the
: code. It's not about legality, it's about common courtesy. The Diku
: people, whose code you based your system off of, didn't have to license
: the code to you for free either. They also spent considerable time and
: effort developing the stock Diku code. Don't they deserve credit and
: common courtesy as well?
Yes they do, and they get both.
Sultress, Medievia IV
intense.netaxs.com 4000
Wanda Lyons
: In article <39ubpp$o...@btree.brooktree.com> wa...@btree.brooktree.com (Wanda Jackson-Lyons) writes:
: >In article <39p22d$i...@server.st.usm.edu>,
: >Timothy Mark Lawless <tlaw...@whale.st.usm.edu> wrote:
: >>: Vryce was trying to NOT give credit where credit is due, they wouldn't be
: >>: listed under the credit command either.
: >
: >>Used to be they WERN'T. It was the bitching and moaning here that got them.
: >
: >That was then, this is now. And even if he were to put the names on that
: >screen, we would STILL hear about how they USED to not be there for
: >eternity...
: Bzzzzzzz, wrong. Once Vryce placed the credits command, complaint about
: this stopped *IMMEDIATELY*. I was the first person to mention that this
: was a GoodThing(tm). The only time its mentioned now is in reference to
: "well you went this far, why not finish it?".
I suppose that in your position as Chief of NetPolice you are sure of
this? Are you going to personally arrest those who bring it up after? :)
I am glad you feel qualified to speak for this entire group. You must
feel very special.
: If he installed the credits, then people would stop this issue, and
: solely concentrate on what they perceive are medievias other faults ;)
Other faults? Impossible... we are perfect!
: Plus it would free up bandwidth to flame Thoric, and you can't argue with
: that reasoning :)
Call me mudignorant, but i don't know Thoric and so can't say one way or
another whether your reasoning is valid.
Sultress
intense.netaxs.com 4000
Matuse
>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In article <39ubpp$o...@btree.brooktree.com> wa...@btree.brooktree.com (Wanda Jackson-Lyons) writes:
>: >In article <39p22d$i...@server.st.usm.edu>,
>: >Timothy Mark Lawless <tlaw...@whale.st.usm.edu> wrote:
>: >>: Vryce was trying to NOT give credit where credit is due, they wouldn't be
>: >>: listed under the credit command either.
>: >
>: >>Used to be they WERN'T. It was the bitching and moaning here that got them.
>: >
>: >That was then, this is now. And even if he were to put the names on that
>: >screen, we would STILL hear about how they USED to not be there for
>: >eternity...
>
>: Bzzzzzzz, wrong. Once Vryce placed the credits command, complaint about
>: this stopped *IMMEDIATELY*. I was the first person to mention that this
>: was a GoodThing(tm). The only time its mentioned now is in reference to
>: "well you went this far, why not finish it?".
>
>I suppose that in your position as Chief of NetPolice you are sure of
>this? Are you going to personally arrest those who bring it up after? :)
>I am glad you feel qualified to speak for this entire group. You must
>feel very special.
AGAIN with this ludicrous netcop thing....this is getting really feeble
wanda, are you THIS desperate to impeach what i say? I guess that rather
than arguing a hopeless position you resort to moronic and unfounded
name-calling. How lovely.
The "position" i speak from is as a *READER* of the group. When vryce put
the credit command in, flames changed from "put some credits in!" to "put
the rest of the credits in!". If you have such a selective memory for this,
that still doesn't change that fact of what happened.
>: If he installed the credits, then people would stop this issue, and
>: solely concentrate on what they perceive are medievias other faults ;)
>
>Other faults? Impossible... we are perfect!
Such self-delusionment. There is no such thing as a flawless mud,
anywhere. Never will be.
>: Plus it would free up bandwidth to flame Thoric, and you can't argue with
>: that reasoning :)
>
>Call me mudignorant, but i don't know Thoric and so can't say one way or
>another whether your reasoning is valid.
Thoric = Derek Snider, code thief extraordinaire.
Thoric = Derek
Vryce = Mike
Sultress = Wanda
You get the idea
Wanda Lyons
: In article <sinCz4...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: >
: >I suppose that in your position as Chief of NetPolice you are sure of
: >I am glad you feel qualified to speak for this entire group. You must
: >feel very special.
: AGAIN with this ludicrous netcop thing....this is getting really feeble
: wanda, are you THIS desperate to impeach what i say? I guess that rather
: than arguing a hopeless position you resort to moronic and unfounded
: name-calling. How lovely.
Oh geee.. lighten up Matt. I'm begining to think my words must be
hitting a little too close to home for all the protesting you are doing.
Me desperate to impeach what you say? Oh please. I sought only to
interject a bit of sarcastic humor into what has become a dull repitious
thread.
: The "position" i speak from is as a *READER* of the group. When vryce put
: the credit command in, flames changed from "put some credits in!" to "put
: the rest of the credits in!". If you have such a selective memory for this,
: that still doesn't change that fact of what happened.
Is your memory so failing that you can't remember the message that i had
just responded to? In it, the fact that the credit command had only
recently been implemented was brought up again, "in the thread that you
though was dead" is how it was put.. or something to that nature. My
point though, is what makes you think you can speak for the rest of the
world and say that NO one will ever mention it again? Seems a pretty
ignorant thing to say, don't you think? Granted, the majority of it will
stop, but given the way the flames fly around here, SOMEone will
invariably bring it up again.
: >: If he installed the credits, then people would stop this issue, and
: >: solely concentrate on what they perceive are medievias other faults ;)
: >Other faults? Impossible... we are perfect!
: Such self-delusionment. There is no such thing as a flawless mud,
: anywhere. Never will be.
Matt... do you have one once of a sense of humor? Maybe your mud being
down has caused you a build up of stress or something.. i know that
killing mobs relaxes me.. that's why i play. I sure hope yours goes back
up soon.. i think you need a break.
: >: Plus it would free up bandwidth to flame Thoric, and you can't argue with
: >: that reasoning :)
: >
: >Call me mudignorant, but i don't know Thoric and so can't say one way or
: >another whether your reasoning is valid.
: Thoric = Derek Snider, code thief extraordinaire.
: Thoric = Derek
: Vryce = Mike
: Sultress = Wanda
: You get the idea
Yeah... but you forgot one.. i don't see your name there...
Sultress of Medievia IV
198.69.186.36 4000
Derek Snider
: FACT: Your mud is a STOCK MERC from the players point of view, yes it has
: i can tell, *NOTHING* else has been changed from the players point of view.
visable to the average player:
1) Many more skills and spells (unless you are of all classes, and have
gotten you character up to high levels.. you never see them)
2) The memory management, linked lists, area loading, player file loading
and save have been rewritten or overhauled.
3) Added (other than ANSI, RIP, etc):
- Clans (not just names, but lots of code)
- True Online building (saves rooms, mobs, objects, resets and mobprograms)
4) A hierarchy of 10 god levels.... each with distinctive abilities and
duties.
5) Monitoring and logging as channels that gods can view.
6) Auto-generating WIZLIST
7) Hunting, hating and fearing mobiles
Plus a lot more I can't think of at the moment... plus lots of bug fixes.
: Alex (4 years now?)
: Epic (in its many incarnations)
: Silly (3 years? fairly widely used source code)
: Circle (more muds openeing up on this code recently than mercs :) )
: Grimne (easily 3 1/2 years up now, still going strong)
: As soon as your feeble mud is fit to join this (rather incomplete) list
: (and no, you are not the one to judge when this is, everyone else in the
: mudding community is) then you can claim to be superior to the other
: out-of-the-box muds (of which yours most certainly is).
Wow... 5 muds... that's SOOOOOOOOOO many...
I assure you that Realms of Despair will be around for many years to come.
(Mainly because I *AM* the sysadmin)
Derek Snider
: > Look... I've had this investigated by lawyers. When you modify something
: > to a certain point, your inherit it. If you're telling me that Medievia
: > isn't 70% different than DikuMUD Gamma 0.0, (which you'd have to have
: > actually seen the SOURCE CODE to tell for sure), then maybe you could
: > complain...
: That's nice, please post a reference with a phone number to contact
: these lawyers?
If you're willing to call... I'll see if they are willing for me to release
their number.
: > Even if it wasn't free... Medievia isn't *SELLING* it, or *CHARGING* for
: > its use.
: It doesn't matter, stealing a free item is still stealing.
If it's free, you CAN'T steal it. Check your logic buddy.
: > It costs Medievia money to run... but they let people from all over the
: > world play it for free. As do we at Realms of Despair.
: *sniff* such noble fellows! I really shed a tear for their SELFLESS efforts.
Indeed you should. You run a mud from a school... I doubt you shell out
one cent to pay for its operation.
: Your mud is nowhere near the quality of several notable muds that are
: .edu or formerly .edu games. BTW, changing a few bits of text is EXACTLY
: what you did with Midgaard, yet you never seem to acknowledge that fact.
I'm talking about code, not areas...
Derek Snider
: receive credit for it. I just also feel that those who have worked on it
: in the past should as well. No matter how much you modify a Diku, you're
: doing just that, modifying it. I don't care if you replace 100% of the
: code. It's not about legality, it's about common courtesy. The Diku
: people, whose code you based your system off of, didn't have to license
: the code to you for free either. They also spent considerable time and
: effort developing the stock Diku code. Don't they deserve credit and
: common courtesy as well?
I was happy to leave the CREDITS intact... until I got 10 million complaints
about the names on the opening welcome screen... it wasn't until then that
I disposed of them.
Matuse
>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In article <sinCz4...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
>: >: If he installed the credits, then people would stop this issue, and
>: >: solely concentrate on what they perceive are medievias other faults ;)
>: >Other faults? Impossible... we are perfect!
>: Such self-delusionment. There is no such thing as a flawless mud,
>: anywhere. Never will be.
>Matt... do you have one once of a sense of humor? Maybe your mud being
>down has caused you a build up of stress or something.. i know that
>killing mobs relaxes me.. that's why i play. I sure hope yours goes back
>up soon.. i think you need a break.
Well in this at least we can agree. I *really* wish that Another would
return, so I could get back on it. Also i'd get the chance to post a big
penis waving article that listed all its changes over Gamma code (HA! a
mud that actually runs off gamma code, how often do you see that nowadays?).
Assuming you meant to write "did you once have a..." Yea, I did, but
Vryce and Thoric have leeched it from me. I'll be happier once this
thread is ended (not cause i'll stop, but when those pesky lil credits
are placed) and once my mud comes back up.
>: >: Plus it would free up bandwidth to flame Thoric, and you can't argue with
>: >: that reasoning :)
>: >Call me mudignorant, but i don't know Thoric and so can't say one way or
>: >another whether your reasoning is valid.
>: Thoric = Derek Snider, code thief extraordinaire.
>: Thoric = Derek
>: Vryce = Mike
>: Sultress = Wanda
>: You get the idea
>
>Yeah... but you forgot one.. i don't see your name there...
I didn't really think it needed......but
Matuse = Matt (big change there eh? Its a nickname I go in jr. hi, and
use it on all my muds, makes for easy regocnition)
Brian Cheatwood
>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: FACT: Your mud is a STOCK MERC from the players point of view, yes it has
>: color and vampires, but...big deal, those are puny changes, and as far as
>: i can tell, *NOTHING* else has been changed from the players point of view.
>FACT? Bullshit. Realms of Despair has MANY changes... most which are NOT
>visable to the average player:
>1) Many more skills and spells (unless you are of all classes, and have
>gotten you character up to high levels.. you never see them)
It's not the quantity, it's the quality... don't forget. So Mud X has
500 skills... so what?
>2) The memory management, linked lists, area loading, player file loading
>and save have been rewritten or overhauled.
Admittedly, I wouldn't know your internal code, so I can't comment on that.
>3) Added (other than ANSI, RIP, etc):
> - Clans (not just names, but lots of code)
> - True Online building (saves rooms, mobs, objects, resets and mobprograms)
I've seen many muds with clans and Online building... again, so what?
>4) A hierarchy of 10 god levels.... each with distinctive abilities and
>duties.
Oooooh, that's a strong point? :) Hey, my mud has _50_ god levels, it rules!
>5) Monitoring and logging as channels that gods can view.
>6) Auto-generating WIZLIST
This is new?
>7) Hunting, hating and fearing mobiles
>Plus a lot more I can't think of at the moment... plus lots of bug fixes.
Any mud implementor has to fix bugs. I don't doubt for a minute that the
Merc and Diku authors know that the code they wrote/modified had some bugs
in it. No code is bug free... look at the professional software that's
written and all the patches that get released within about 2 weeks of it's
entry into the software market. It's nice that you fix bugs, and it's nice
that you post about them, but keep in mind that the Diku and Merc authors
still gave you a starting point. It's a lot easier to fix bugs IMHO than
to write the whole code from scratch. (although writing the whole code
from scratch is probably the better thing to do in the long run.)
>: Alex (4 years now?)
>: Epic (in its many incarnations)
>: Silly (3 years? fairly widely used source code)
>: Circle (more muds openeing up on this code recently than mercs :) )
>: Grimne (easily 3 1/2 years up now, still going strong)
>: As soon as your feeble mud is fit to join this (rather incomplete) list
>: (and no, you are not the one to judge when this is, everyone else in the
>: mudding community is) then you can claim to be superior to the other
>: out-of-the-box muds (of which yours most certainly is).
>
>Wow... 5 muds... that's SOOOOOOOOOO many...
>
>I assure you that Realms of Despair will be around for many years to come.
>(Mainly because I *AM* the sysadmin)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now THAT is one of the funniest things I've read in here in quite a while. :)
Oh sorry, I forgot to mention all your credits, but hey, you probably don't
care since you're so loose with the Merc/Diku credits anyways, right?
Really, Derek, the main point is that you still modified _someone else's_
base code. Not giving them credit (which honestly, 2 lines on the login
sequence and a credits command that most people will never use isn't asking
much) is in direct violation of the license, and at the very mimimum showing
a blatant lack of respect. Just because those 2 lines are on the login
sequence hardly means that you wouldn't get any credit for running your mud.
The players I think would know well enough who does the work around there,
wouldn't you think? :)
Not to mention, you seem to have a need to try to impress other people with
your accomplishments. Your work will speak for itself... you don't _need_
to have to justify it by listing your other credentials, and I doubt anyone
really cares. For example, I'll cheerfully admit I hardly know anything about
C, but I doubt anyone cares about that on here either. :)
If your mud doesn't give credit to the Diku authors, then your mud could
hardly be called a 'DikuMUD', right? I wonder why you're on this newsgroup
then...
Really, 2 lines and a credits command isn't asking for much...
--Setanta :)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Cheatwood |"I could be sitting here all day!" - Hurricane
Ohio University, Athens |"Some day you'll learn to play pinball" - ST:TNG
bche...@ace.cs.ohiou.edu |Smile, it makes the world wonder what you're up to!
Matuse
>: FACT: Your mud is a STOCK MERC from the players point of view, yes it has
>: color and vampires, but...big deal, those are puny changes, and as far as
>: i can tell, *NOTHING* else has been changed from the players point of view.
>FACT? Bullshit. Realms of Despair has MANY changes... most which are NOT
>visable to the average player:
>1) Many more skills and spells (unless you are of all classes, and have
>gotten you character up to high levels.. you never see them)
Beyond trivial. Insignificant changes like this take *maybe* 5 minutes to
code. Hell, I couldnt' code my way out of a paper bag, and i could still
make puny changes like this.
>2) The memory management, linked lists, area loading, player file loading
>and save have been rewritten or overhauled.
Bah, these kind of changes dont show up at all to the player, and make no
substative changes to any form of gameplay.
>3) Added (other than ANSI, RIP, etc):
> - Clans (not just names, but lots of code)
I'm still waiting for you to add something original (even a little bit)
that could *possibly* justify you claiming credit for writing the entire
code.
> - True Online building (saves rooms, mobs, objects, resets and mobprograms)
Hmmm, how many muds have this? 40? 50? Don't all MOOs have this? I'm
still waiting for something original.
>4) A hierarchy of 10 god levels.... each with distinctive abilities and
>duties.
OH WOWW!!! i am *SO* impressed here...imagine that...gods with *10*
different levels....what a complete JOKE. This isn't a "most muds have
it" feature...*EVERY SINGLE MUD* has this.
>5) Monitoring and logging as channels that gods can view.
Even if this was the tiniest bit original (which it sure as hell isn't)
i've been immortal of 4 different muds that had it, YEARS before your mud
even existed (hell, long before the merc code you stole was even written).
>6) Auto-generating WIZLIST
Ohhhhhhh! Hold on while I go beat off...this is such a fantastic revalation.
Renegade Outpost had this in mid-92, and their auto-wizlist also keeps
track of the gods' current TITLES, does yours do that? I don't think so.
Besides, an auto wizlist is just a lazy cop-out for imps who are too
dä8amn lazy to just change the wizlist file (Anothermud can make online
changes to the wizlist (among other files) that take immediate effect
without even requiring a shutdown, could you code this? I doubt it).
And if your mud is so pitifully easy that people can immort often enough to
make an autowizlist even needed, what does that say for the ease and
stupidity of your game? Quite a bit.
>7) Hunting, hating and fearing mobiles
SillyMud had this 3 years ago or more...come back when you have something
original to wave your penis over.
>Plus a lot more I can't think of at the moment... plus lots of bug fixes.
You are the imp and you don't even know what your own code features are?
How pathetic.
>: Alex (4 years now?)
>: Epic (in its many incarnations)
>: Silly (3 years? fairly widely used source code)
>: Circle (more muds openeing up on this code recently than mercs :) )
>: Grimne (easily 3 1/2 years up now, still going strong)
>: As soon as your feeble mud is fit to join this (rather incomplete) list
>: (and no, you are not the one to judge when this is, everyone else in the
>: mudding community is) then you can claim to be superior to the other
>: out-of-the-box muds (of which yours most certainly is).
>
>Wow... 5 muds... that's SOOOOOOOOOO many...
I'll subscribe to "hooked on phonics" for you, so you can learn how to read.
Note carefully the part which says RATHER INCOMPLETE. There are dozens of
muds both down and still in existance which ran wonderfully on .edu sites
(and other scholastic sites not in the US).
>I assure you that Realms of Despair will be around for many years to come.
>(Mainly because I *AM* the sysadmin)
Or until your bosses realize the thief that you are and yank your access. Do
they read newsgroups, or do you oh-so-handily take over the job of that
so they can't read what the rest of the world thinks of you?
Just ONCE i would like to see you post something that isn't completely stupid
doesn't have to be something major...like say, list a feature or a
spec_proc that is at least partially original (that is, don't make
another list of features which have existed on other muds for 2 or more
years).
Matuse
>Shawn L. Baird (sca...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: I, for one, do not say that the people doing work on a MUD should not
>: receive credit for it. I just also feel that those who have worked on it
>: in the past should as well. No matter how much you modify a Diku, you're
>: doing just that, modifying it. I don't care if you replace 100% of the
>: code. It's not about legality, it's about common courtesy. The Diku
>: people, whose code you based your system off of, didn't have to license
>: the code to you for free either. They also spent considerable time and
>: effort developing the stock Diku code. Don't they deserve credit and
>: common courtesy as well?
>
>I was happy to leave the CREDITS intact... until I got 10 million complaints
>about the names on the opening welcome screen... it wasn't until then that
>I disposed of them.
What a heaping, raw, steaming pile of BULLSHIT. I ask all other
implementors out there, if they have *EVER* received even *one* complaint
over the credits in the login screen. Even one.
Never mind any complaints over the actual CREDITS command, which is
*totally* optional for the players to use.
Please derek, site from your logs even a single example of someone
complaining over this, I can see it now....Foobar gossips 'Boy those
extra 3 lines at the login screen really fuck things up, take 'em out!'
And exactly how do all these complaints relate to stealing midgaard and
claiming credit for it? If people complain so much over the author
credits, well you better take out the credits from the "areas" command.
Cause we sure wouldn't want you to get another 10 million complaints
about all those extra words which your moronic players have to decipher.
How utterly pathetic.
Matuse
>Russ Taylor (rta...@cie-2.uoregon.edu) wrote:
>: > Look... I've had this investigated by lawyers. When you modify something
>: > to a certain point, your inherit it. If you're telling me that Medievia
>: > isn't 70% different than DikuMUD Gamma 0.0, (which you'd have to have
>: > actually seen the SOURCE CODE to tell for sure), then maybe you could
>: > complain...
>
>: That's nice, please post a reference with a phone number to contact
>: these lawyers?
>If you're willing to call... I'll see if they are willing for me to release
>their number.
Oh please, this is the weakest cop-out you've used yet (and thats saying
a lot). Please cite *any* reference via a law book or court case that
upholds your views. You don't need to consult your lawyers on this if
they've already told you. Or could it be that these examples DON'T exist,
and you are just really crappy at covering it? I'd learn towards the latter.
>: > It costs Medievia money to run... but they let people from all over the
>: > world play it for free. As do we at Realms of Despair.
>: *sniff* such noble fellows! I really shed a tear for their SELFLESS efforts.
>Indeed you should. You run a mud from a school... I doubt you shell out
>one cent to pay for its operation.
Its a funny thing, but I seem to recall there being such a thing as TUITION,
and TAXES....people who think university people get free computer access are
extremely deluded fools.
>: Your mud is nowhere near the quality of several notable muds that are
>: .edu or formerly .edu games. BTW, changing a few bits of text is EXACTLY
>: what you did with Midgaard, yet you never seem to acknowledge that fact.
>I'm talking about code, not areas...
Even if you don't talk about areas, your mud is still vastly inferior to
99% of other games out there, the changes which your brag about so highly are
minor at best, and stupid at worst, most of them a self-respecting imp
wouldn't even BOTHER to code because they are so dumb.
Michael Edward Chastain
Derek Snider <de...@cid.compulink.com> wrote:
> I was happy to leave the CREDITS intact... until I got 10 million complaints
> about the names on the opening welcome screen... it wasn't until then that
> I disposed of them.
Smells like bullshit to me.
How many complaints did you get about the 'credits' command?
Joshua Bardwell
>In article <3a14kd$t...@news.compulink.com> de...@cid.compulink.com (Derek Snider) writes:
>>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>>2) The memory management, linked lists, area loading, player file loading
>>and save have been rewritten or overhauled.
>Bah, these kind of changes dont show up at all to the player, and make no
>substative changes to any form of gameplay.
I guess you don't care when your mud lags because it's swapping memory to
disk huh? That isn't "a substantive change to gameplay" huh? Take any
CS course involving optimization and they'll tell you that every cycle counts
-- those cycles he may (or may not depending on how good a coder he is, but
I'll give him the benifit of the doubt) save you by rewriting all this add
up to more cycles that are spent executing _your_ commands.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joshua Bardwell | "May be going to hell in a bucket, baby
Internet: gt6...@prism.gatech.edu | But at least I'm enjoying the ride!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matuse
>In article <matuseCz...@netcom.com> mat...@netcom.com (Matuse) writes:
>>In article <3a14kd$t...@news.compulink.com> de...@cid.compulink.com (Derek Snider) writes:
>>>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>>>2) The memory management, linked lists, area loading, player file loading
>>>and save have been rewritten or overhauled.
>
>>Bah, these kind of changes dont show up at all to the player, and make no
>>substative changes to any form of gameplay.
>
>I guess you don't care when your mud lags because it's swapping memory to
>disk huh? That isn't "a substantive change to gameplay" huh? Take any
>CS course involving optimization and they'll tell you that every cycle counts
>-- those cycles he may (or may not depending on how good a coder he is, but
>I'll give him the benifit of the doubt) save you by rewriting all this add
>up to more cycles that are spent executing _your_ commands.
Gee, guess I've never seen lag caused by memory swapping. My luck to play
muds where the coder has more intellect than a squished grape.
Christopher R. Boggs
>What a heaping, raw, steaming pile of BULLSHIT. I ask all other
>implementors out there, if they have *EVER* received even *one* complaint
>over the credits in the login screen. Even one.
Umm....Only when they are lacking. =]
-Chris
--
| Chris Boggs - Alumnus - MGT '94 | Email: crb...@crl.com |
| Georgia Institute of Technology | Rotisserie Baseball Addict |
| ObDisclaimer: Do not mistake this post as anything but personal opinion. |
| "Its not whether you win or lose that matters, its how much you win by." |
Shawn L. Baird
>I was happy to leave the CREDITS intact... until I got 10 million complaints
>about the names on the opening welcome screen... it wasn't until then that
>I disposed of them.
Wow, 10 million complaints. That's a lot. I'm surprised your mail spool
didn't overflow and, in it's burgeoning development achieve self awareness
and try to take over the world. I don't know, sounds like complete bullshit
to me, Derek. But hey, that's not a huge surprise ...
Shawn L. Baird
>If it's free, you CAN'T steal it. Check your logic buddy.
Hmmm, better talk to your lawyers. Free items can still be copyrighted and
by being free are not neccesarily released into the public domain. Check
your facts.
>Indeed you should. You run a mud from a school... I doubt you shell out
>one cent to pay for its operation.
Nobody held you at gunpoint and said you must. Nor did anyone say that once
you shell out money you are no longer required to abide by the license
agreement. I looked at your "list of features". They could all be achieved
without rewriting more than, say, 10% of the core server. Hell, almost every
modified mud I'm familiar with had all of the features you listed of any
importance.
Shawn L. Baird
>I guess you don't care when your mud lags because it's swapping memory to
>disk huh? That isn't "a substantive change to gameplay" huh? Take any
>CS course involving optimization and they'll tell you that every cycle counts
>-- those cycles he may (or may not depending on how good a coder he is, but
>I'll give him the benifit of the doubt) save you by rewriting all this add
>up to more cycles that are spent executing _your_ commands.
They'll also tell you, if they're any good, that wasting your time optimizing
code that doesn't need any optimization is foolish. Most Dikus I know of
only lag because of shoddy programming (i.e., memory leaks, needlessly
complex list traversals of everything in the game, etc.) or a bad network.
In addition, the modifications needed to save memory are hardly substantial.
It is very easy, for example, to add string sharing to the server. Strings
and large tables tend to dominate structure usage compared to other members.
Anyway, take any real computer science course involving optimization and
they'll tell you to optimize code that needs it, not every piece of code you
come across. Since every cycle counts, you will of course be rewriting the
Diku server in assembly. Have fun, see you again in fifty years.
Matuse
>mat...@netcom.com (Matuse) writes:
>
>>What a heaping, raw, steaming pile of BULLSHIT. I ask all other
>>implementors out there, if they have *EVER* received even *one* complaint
>>over the credits in the login screen. Even one.
>
> Umm....Only when they are lacking. =]
Yea yea yea, just go and shoot holes in my post with this sort of thing :)
Ya bonehead :)
Christopher R. Boggs
So far I have seen Medieva and Apocalypse IV mentioned in gaming
magazines as suggested Dikus to try, as an entry into the genre.
Isn't that kinda like using a Ford Pinto to advertise American cars?
I wish MUME or one of the other well repsected Dikus would get some
coverage instead of the powergaming Dikus.
Oh well...Its good to want things.
Darrin Bright
>: FACT: Your mud is a STOCK MERC from the players point of view, yes it has
>: color and vampires, but...big deal, those are puny changes, and as far as
>: i can tell, *NOTHING* else has been changed from the players point of view.
>FACT? Bullshit. Realms of Despair has MANY changes... most which are NOT
>visable to the average player:
>1) Many more skills and spells (unless you are of all classes, and have
>gotten you character up to high levels.. you never see them)
Oh? Like what, burning hands?
Ok. You removed some spells/skills.
>2) The memory management, linked lists, area loading, player file loading
>and save have been rewritten or overhauled.
This would be the internals you were referring to? Um, yer nowhere near 70%
dude
>3) Added (other than ANSI, RIP, etc):
> - Clans (not just names, but lots of code)
> - True Online building (saves rooms, mobs, objects, resets and mobprograms)
ANSI takes about 10 minutes to add in a mud. RIP might be more difficult
but just isn't used widely enough. Clans? Gee, thats real original.
True Online Building. This is, I assume, to help you edit areas you've
stolen?
>4) A hierarchy of 10 god levels.... each with distinctive abilities and
>duties.
*snort* This is a chance? Whatever.
>5) Monitoring and logging as channels that gods can view.
Sounds like wiznet. Stick and ROM have it. Been there, done that.
>6) Auto-generating WIZLIST
I've talked over something similar with Alander and Zump. This sounds like
a scriptfile, not part of the actual mud code.
>7) Hunting, hating and fearing mobiles
>Plus a lot more I can't think of at the moment... plus lots of bug fixes.
The circle hunting code was released publically, wasn't it? I'm not sure
what hating and fearing means... did you change wimpy and aggressive or
something?
>I assure you that Realms of Despair will be around for many years to come.
>(Mainly because I *AM* the sysadmin)
Whatever. You're still nowhere near 70%. I've seen everything except RIP
implemented on other Merc muds that comply with the licensing agreements.
I see no way you could have rewritten the whole code.
Ah well. Enough crap from me.
Naved A. Surve
Derek Snider <de...@cid.compulink.com> wrote:
>FACT? Bullshit. Realms of Despair has MANY changes... most which are NOT
>visable to the average player:
>4) A hierarchy of 10 god levels.... each with distinctive abilities and
>duties.
>5) Monitoring and logging as channels that gods can view.
>6) Auto-generating WIZLIST
>7) Hunting, hating and fearing mobiles
Huh? I can't believe anyone could say they consider adding a "hierarchy
of 10 god levels" a major change and still keep a straight face.
Monitering and logging viewable by gods as channels? That's stock Circle
code material; a trivial hack.
Auto-generating WIZLIST? Stock Circle material.
Hunting, hating and fearing mobiles are simple spec-procs.
I am far from impressed by your vast list of changes.
-Naved
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Naved A. Surve | The Johns Hopkins University
sur...@cs.jhu.edu | Baltimore, Maryland
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Naved A. Surve
Derek Snider <de...@cid.compulink.com> wrote:
>Indeed you should. You run a mud from a school... I doubt you shell out
>one cent to pay for its operation.
Excuse me? I shell out $19,500 per year in tuition costs alone to this
school for the right to be here. While the magnitudes differ from school
to school, where did you get this silly idea that it is free?
Lars Balker Rasmussen
de...@cid.compulink.com (Derek Snider) writes:
>Credits credits credits... that's all anyone whines about around here.
Whenever you join a conversation, at least.
>Look... I've had this investigated by lawyers. When you modify something
>to a certain point, your inherit it. If you're telling me that Medievia
>isn't 70% different than DikuMUD Gamma 0.0, (which you'd have to have
>actually seen the SOURCE CODE to tell for sure), then maybe you could
>complain...
70% again, huh? Citation, please.
>Even if Medievia WASN'T 70% different, the DikuMUD team, (not *YOU*)
>would have to do the complaining. (Which they have)
And are.
>And for their complaining to hold much ground, they'd have to prove that
>Medievia, through not putting the credits on the screen, caused them some
>sort of damage.
Why? Citation, please.
>Since DikuMUD is *FREE*... they can't say they lost any money.
>Even if it wasn't free... Medievia isn't *SELLING* it, or *CHARGING* for
>its use.
So? Citation, please.
>Medievia, like Realms of Despair, is offering their mud to all of the
>Internet as a *FREE* service. Do you think it costs NOTHING to run a
>MUD like Medievia? From what I gathered, Medievia has a dedicated machine,
>with over 32 Megs of RAM, enough disk space for the thousands and thousands
>of player files, logs, areas, data files, source code, etc... plus an
>Internet connection of high bandwidth (apparently a T3), which is FAR from
>inexpensive.
So? So do a lot of other muds, who still obeys the license.
>It costs Medievia money to run... but they let people from all over the
>world play it for free. As do we at Realms of Despair.
Gosh. Aren't you nice?
>The operators have spent considerable time and effort developing and
>maintaining the mud, which is far different from some college student
>taking a stock Diku or Merc mud, changing a few bits of text, and running
>it from the college, (without sysadmin permission), and probably won't
>stay up for more than a few weeks, if that.
Well, Mr Snider. DikuMUD was designed, implemented and evolved by a bunch
of students at the university of Copenhagen. The game ran on a local machine
(freja.diku.dk), with permission due to the LEGAL AGREEMENT they had with
the university, and with the department of computer science, whose name
they borrowed (DIKU).
I know Michael Seifert. The legalities were certainly in order. The
license is good. You and Mr Krause are in violation. Things are being
taken care of.
Gnort, post-gamma member of the Diku-team.
--
Lars Balker Rasmussen <a href="http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~gnort/">Click!</a>
"Personally, I think that you are all despicably cruel to newbies."
-- Terry Pratchett
Lars Balker Rasmussen
>: VASTLY in the wrong, yet unable to change your opinion, probably due to
>: some ego thing), doesn't make that topic less valid. I'm sick of hearing
>: people whining all the time in the news, that doesn't make their
>: particular whine any less justified.
>
>That we are "VASTLY in the wrong", is YOUR opinion, nothing more.
Well, actually, dear Wanda, it's also the opinion of the Diku team, but
maybe their opinion doesn't count?
>That
>it is "some ego thing" is ALSO your opinion, and one that couldn't be
>further from the truth. I am tired of the topic because it is pointless
>to continue the discussion. Whines are never justified. If you can't get
>your complaint satisfied once it has been heard, what is the point in
>continuing to spam the rest of us with it over and over again?
``Mr OffiCER! I am SICK and TIRED of you constantly GIVING ME THESE
PARKING TICKETS! STOP IT!''
Sigh,
Gnort
Lars Balker Rasmussen
om...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Chris Leonard) writes:
>Good luck. I've asked several Gods what the steps are to
>be a coder on medievia, and the answer is:
>
>"No one sees the code, only IO and Vryce."
That's funny. Here's what Vryce posted some time ago:
In article <3436it$4...@netaxs.com>, Mike Krause wrote:
>Any imp with a serious problem with Medievia, email me, we will talk
>voice. I am very willing to share ideas, code and concepts.
I'd LOVE to follow up Mike's offer, so we can establish once and for all
that Medievia isn't a DikuMud.
>As to the crap about credits not included<shrug> Big deal. so they're in
>violation.
Yeah, `Big deal'.
Devon Sharky
: Well, Mr Snider. DikuMUD was designed, implemented and evolved by a bunch
: of students at the university of Copenhagen. The game ran on a local machine
: (freja.diku.dk), with permission due to the LEGAL AGREEMENT they had with
: the university, and with the department of computer science, whose name
: they borrowed (DIKU).
: I know Michael Seifert. The legalities were certainly in order. The
: license is good. You and Mr Krause are in violation. Things are being
: taken care of.
Is there some other basis for disliking Medeivia and Realms of
Despair? I ask this because other muds; popular muds, are currently
violating the DIKU license in the same manner as Medeivia and Realms
without comment.
I have no problem with the DIKU license. The mud I am helping
develop will follow the license agreement to the letter, and I support
the condemnation of anyone who does not follow the minor mandates of the
generous DIKU team. However, in the interests of fairness, condemn all
muds for these acts, or tell us what your real problem is with Medeivia
and Realms. (Personally, I think Medeivia is banal pabulum..but that is
another subject..)
Brian Moore
: Is there some other basis for disliking Medeivia and Realms of
: violating the DIKU license in the same manner as Medeivia and Realms
: without comment.
Those are the only two I know of. I have better things to do than to
go down the MUD list and find who and who isn't in compliance. If others
are violating it, please be specific and I'll add them to my auto-flame
list. I do have other problems with both the above MUDs as well, but that
is mostly related to the penis-waving that goes on as part of their insistence
that they do to justify their thievery. Neither MUD is the be-all-end-all
(or "The future of MUDding") that they claim to be, neither is even very
original: but that is also related to their claims of being ultra-modified.
I also hate Derek for being a twit imp that goes to other MUDs to advertise
his on global channels.
: I have no problem with the DIKU license. The mud I am helping
: develop will follow the license agreement to the letter, and I support
: the condemnation of anyone who does not follow the minor mandates of the
: generous DIKU team. However, in the interests of fairness, condemn all
: muds for these acts, or tell us what your real problem is with Medeivia
: and Realms. (Personally, I think Medeivia is banal pabulum..but that is
: another subject..)
Again, please give some names and I'll put them in my auto-flamer. Anyone
that refuses to give credit where credit is due (both ethically and
legally) does not deserve the cooperation of the net and/or this newsgroup.
Lars Balker Rasmussen
Is there some other basis for disliking Medeivia and Realms of
Despair? I ask this because other muds; popular muds, are currently
violating the DIKU license in the same manner as Medeivia and Realms
without comment.
No, I guess the only other reason for disliking these particular two muds
is the admins pigheadedness, when confronted with the fact that they're
violating the license.
The reason I don't go as aggresively against other muds out there violating
the license, is that I don't know about them. I really have no time to log
onto every dikumud on the net, public or otherwise, to see whether they
follow the simple rules set up by the license, and indeed, I have no great
desire to do so. I rely on the information in this newsgroup, and if a
violation is reported, I check it out, inform the rest of the Diku-group,
and try to convince the muds implementors that they're in the wrong, using
e.g. their bulletin board systems, or personal contact on the mud. If that
doesn't help, I will occasionally take the matter up on this newsgroup.
As has been speculated, we have no great desire to start legal procedures,
as we're all currently either students or poor programmers. That's not to
say that we won't resort to these means eventually.
I have no problem with the DIKU license. The mud I am helping
develop will follow the license agreement to the letter, and I support
the condemnation of anyone who does not follow the minor mandates of the
generous DIKU team.
And, we appreciate this :)
However, in the interests of fairness, condemn all
muds for these acts, or tell us what your real problem is with Medeivia
and Realms.
As described above.
(Personally, I think Medeivia is banal pabulum..but that is
another subject..)
Indeed :-)
Again, I welcome all to report violations of the DikuMUD license, either to
this group, or email to me, sei...@diku.dk or di...@stacken.kth.se.
We'll then take the matters from there.
Gnort
Chris Herringshaw
Probably because of 2 reasons.
1) Most other MUDs are happy to comply once this violation of
copyright is pointed out by the holders of the copyright, and
take corrective measures.
2) Most all other MUD imps do not act like assholes on this
newsgroup, and flagrantly flaunt the fact that they are in
violation of the copyright and do not plan to do anything
about it, and daring the DIKU people to say otherwise.
If these people weren't so obvious in their disrespect for
the people who conditionally GAVE them the code base they
now use, nobody would even hardly notice.
They provided something for everyone else to work off of,
and no matter how much anyone changes their work, THEY MUST
STILL ABIDE BY THE COPYRIGHT. DIKUMUD AND IT'S DERIVITIVES
ARE NOT PUBLIC DOMAIN. THEY ARE *CONDITIONALLY* FREE. THE
CONDITIONS ARE THAT YOU LEAVE THEIR NAMES IN THE LOGIN SCREEN
AND THE CREDITS COMMAND IF YOU USE THE SOFTWARE IN ANY WAY,
AND YOU DROP THEM A MESSAGE SAYING YOU ARE USING THEIR DIKU
CODE FOR ON A SYSTEM SOMEWHERE.
So, Derek and the rest of you thieves and assholes (Vryce),
as soon as you modified the source you came under the terms
of the copyright. By your subsequent removal of login
screen credits, you immediately came under violation of
that copyright. It is irrelevant HOW MUCH (%70) you changed
the source, because AS SOON as you changed it in the smallest
way the very first time, you were operating under the DIKU
copyright, and hence, you are clearly and irrefutably
in violation. You don't *have* an argument, so put the
damn names in the login screen for christ sake.
READ IT FOR YOURSELVES.
(Of course Derek and Mike *had* copies of this, but probably
deleted it - also in violation of the copyright)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
/* ************************************************************************
* Copyright (C) 1990, 1991 *
* All Rights Reserved *
************************************************************************* */
DikuMud License
Program & Concept created by
Sebastian Hammer
Prss. Maries Alle 15, 1
1908 Frb. C.
DENMARK
(email qu...@freja.diku.dk)
Michael Seifert
Nr. Soeg. 37C, 1, doer 3
1370 Copenhagen K.
DENMARK
(email sei...@freja.diku.dk)
Hans Henrik St{rfeldt
Langs} 19
3500 V{rl|se
DENMARK
(email bom...@freja.diku.dk)
Tom Madsen
R|de Mellemvej 94B, 64
2300 Copenhagen S.
DENMARK
(email no...@freja.diku.dk)
Katja Nyboe
Kildeg}rdsvej 2
2900 Hellerup
31 62 82 84
DENMARK
(email ka...@freja.diku.dk)
This document contains the rules by which you can use, alter or publish
parts of DikuMud. DikuMud has been created by the above five listed persons
in their spare time, at DIKU (Computer Science Instutute at Copenhagen
University). You are legally bound to follow the rules described in this
document.
Rules:
!! DikuMud is NOT Public Domain, shareware, careware or the like !!
You may under no circumstances make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in
any possible way. You may under no circumstances charge money for
distributing any part of dikumud - this includes the usual $5 charge
for "sending the disk" or "just for the disk" etc.
By breaking these rules you violate the agreement between us and the
University, and hence will be sued.
You may not remove any copyright notices from any of the documents or
sources given to you.
This license must *always* be included "as is" if you copy or give
away any part of DikuMud (which is to be done as described in this
document).
If you publish *any* part of dikumud, we as creators must appear in the
article, and the article must be clearly copyrighted subject to this
license. Before publishing you must first send us a message, by
snail-mail or e-mail, and inform us what, where and when you are
publishing (remember to include your address, name etc.)
If you wish to setup a version of DikuMud on any computer system, you
must send us a message , by snail-mail or e-mail, and inform us where
and when you are running the game. (remember to include
your address, name etc.)
Any running version of DikuMud must include our names in the login
sequence. Furthermore the "credits" command shall always cointain
our name, addresses, and a notice which states we have created DikuMud.
You are allowed to alter DikuMud, source and documentation as long as
you do not violate any of the above stated rules.
Regards,
The DikuMud Group
Note:
We hope you will enjoy DikuMud, and encourage you to send us any reports
on bugs (when you find 'it'). Remember that we are all using our spare
time to write and improve DikuMud, bugs, etc. - and changes will take their
time. We have so far put extremely many programming hours into this project.
If you make any major improvements on DikuMud we would be happy to
hear from you. As you will naturally honor the above rules, you will receive
new updates and improvements made to the game.
--
====================================================================
Christopher Herringshaw Networking and Special Projects Division
Medical Center Information Technology (MCIT) xxv...@med.umich.edu
University of Michigan Medical Center, B1911 CFOB
1414 Catherine Street, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-0704 (313) 747-2778
====================================================================
Timothy Mark Lawless
: In article <39ubpp$o...@btree.brooktree.com> wa...@btree.brooktree.com (Wanda Jackson-Lyons) writes:
: >In article <39p22d$i...@server.st.usm.edu>,
: >Timothy Mark Lawless <tlaw...@whale.st.usm.edu> wrote:
: >>: Vryce was trying to NOT give credit where credit is due, they wouldn't be
: >>: listed under the credit command either.
: >
: >>Used to be they WERN'T. It was the bitching and moaning here that got them.
: >
: >That was then, this is now. And even if he were to put the names on that
: >screen, we would STILL hear about how they USED to not be there for
: >eternity...
: Bzzzzzzz, wrong. Once Vryce placed the credits command, complaint about
: this stopped *IMMEDIATELY*. I was the first person to mention that this
: was a GoodThing(tm). The only time its mentioned now is in reference to
: "well you went this far, why not finish it?".
: If he installed the credits, then people would stop this issue, and
: solely concentrate on what they perceive are medievias other faults ;)
Lets be realistic. Vryce will NEVER put the credits on his opening screen.
Why? Simply because the rucuss over them not being there gives sultress
a reason to post, inviting more players over to the mud. Strange things is,
Since the changes i have heard people tell me who are still on med that the
players online usualy hover about 70-80 (not bad) but that is down from the
old average of about 100 players. Wonder why.
Pav@phidar (gw.traveller.com 9000)
Hehe, I have to say it
"Phidar - At least we have credits" - (Anonymous user)
--
______ _ _
/ _/_ / _// //
--/ o ______ ____/ /_ __ , / __. , , , // _ _ _
(_/ <_/ / / <_(_) (__/ /_/ (_/ /___ (_/|_(_(_/_</_</_/_)_/_)_
"Trust me, I know what I / tlaw...@whale.st.usm.edu
am doing...I think." '
Matuse
> Is there some other basis for disliking Medeivia and Realms of
>Despair? I ask this because other muds; popular muds, are currently
>violating the DIKU license in the same manner as Medeivia and Realms
>without comment.
The problem (in addition to the license.doc) lies in how the game was coded.
Med has several (mostly) original features, I happen to dislike most of
'em,but thats a personal bias, other people will (and do) like them.
Realms of Despair on the other hand is an almost straight from the box
merc nightmare (bias here again, I hate mercs). It has essentially *NO*
original features, the ones snider claims are original have existed on
other muds for many YEARS, yet he still try to claim credit for
re-inventing the wheel. And then gets all uppity when someone points out
that fact that his mud is exactly like 20-30 other mercs on the net.
Michael Edward Chastain
Shawn L. Baird <sca...@netcom.com> wrote:
> In addition, the modifications needed to save memory are hardly substantial.
> It is very easy, for example, to add string sharing to the server. Strings
> and large tables tend to dominate structure usage compared to other members.
It's very easy for Derek Snider to have string sharing, because it
was already in his base code when he stole it.
Strings do dominate memory use in Diku. I was surprised by how much --
the day I implemented string sharing in my mud, memory use went from
3.5 megabytes to 2.0 megabytes.
Michael Edward Chastain
Naved A. Surve <sur...@zebra.cs.jhu.edu> wrote:
> Monitering and logging viewable by gods as channels? That's stock Circle
> code material; a trivial hack.
>
> Auto-generating WIZLIST? Stock Circle material.
It appears that Derek's an opportunistic thief. I wouldn't be
surprised if he pirated Jeremy Elson's code without following Mr.
Elson's license terms, too.
Derek Snider
: Realms of Despair on the other hand is an almost straight from the box
: original features, the ones snider claims are original have existed on
: other muds for many YEARS, yet he still try to claim credit for
: re-inventing the wheel. And then gets all uppity when someone points out
: that fact that his mud is exactly like 20-30 other mercs on the net.
(1) As you state... "merc nightmare"... it the merc out of the box...
Because my mud is *NOT* "straight from the box", it is not the nightmare
that merc is. If you're going to say Realms is straight from the box...
then you should also say that Rom2 is "almost straight from the box",
and that EnvyMud is indeed straight from the box... and I won't even
mention EdgeMud.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Telnet to our mud ... Realms of Despair ---> mud.compulink.com 4000
Or join our International Teleconference ---> chat.compulink.com 9000
Derek Snider
: I also hate Derek for being a twit imp that goes to other MUDs to advertise
: his on global channels.
Uhhh... I don't think so.
Maybe players on my mud do... but I sure don't.
Brian Moore
: Brian Moore (bmo...@cie-2.uoregon.edu) wrote:
: : I also hate Derek for being a twit imp that goes to other MUDs to advertise
: : his on global channels.
: Uhhh... I don't think so.
: Maybe players on my mud do... but I sure don't.
Right after you did your "vampire" (you know, the ones that don't suck?)
code, a lv1 named "Thoric" who also answered to "Derek" came onto the MUD
I often play to advertise it. What a coincidence eh?
Of course, considering your honesty in the past, your claim that it wasn't
you is hardly believable.
charcoal grey
Lars Balker Rasmussen <gn...@daimi.aau.dk> wrote:
>In article <39pkb1$l...@news.compulink.com>,
> de...@cid.compulink.com (Derek Snider) writes:
>
>>And for their complaining to hold much ground, they'd have to prove that
>>Medievia, through not putting the credits on the screen, caused them some
>>sort of damage.
>
>Why? Citation, please.
>
>>Since DikuMUD is *FREE*... they can't say they lost any money.
>>Even if it wasn't free... Medievia isn't *SELLING* it, or *CHARGING* for
>>its use.
>
>So? Citation, please.
Okay, citations... these are U.S. law, Title 17, section 504, as quoted from
the Copyright Law FAQ, maintained by Terry Carroll, posted to misc.legal and
a bunch of related newsgroups regularly, and available via anonymous ftp
to rtfm.mit.edu, /pub/usenet/news.answers/law/Copyright-FAQ. Since there's
a couple of big words in the two paragraphs, I'll summarize: Even if you
aren't making money off RoD, you're still liable for quite a large sum as
you are in violation of the DIKU copyright.
--- begin citation ---
"Statutory damages" are damages specified in the statute, as opposed to
"actual damages," which are damages that you can demonstrate in court
that you actually suffered. If you registered your work prior to
infringement, you can skip showing any actual damage, and just elect to
receive statutory damages. 17 U.S.C. 504(a).
Statutory damages for copyright infringement are $500 - $20,000, as
determined by the judge. If the infringer proves that he or she was not
aware and had no reason to believe that his or her acts constituted
infringement, the court may lower damages to as low as $200 per
infringement. On the other hand, if the plaintiff proves that the
defendant's infringement was "committed willfully," the judge may award
damages to as high as $100,000 per infringement. 17 U.S.C. 504(c).
--- end citation ---
I imagine that about five minutes of glancing through rgmd archived posts
would be more than enough for anyone of sufficient mental caliber to have
attained a position within the judicial system to acknowledge that Mr.
Snider's legal irregularities were certainly "committed willfully," but
mabye that's just me.
My advice: plead insanity. Those selfsame rgmd archives would be a convincing
argument on your behalf.
Brian Cheatwood
>code looks like? IT RUNS THE SAME, SO IT *IS* THE SAME. My position on
Hey, my 1984 Cavalier runs like a Corvette, so it IS a Corvette! Putting
the fact aside that Derek is a thief and all of that, which we all well
know anyways, the code and how a mud 'looks' can be two different things. :)
If you change the look, by simple logic you must have changed the code, but
if you've changed the code, you've not necessarily changed the look.
I hope this doesn't sound like a defense of Derek though. *grin*
Happy flaming folks. :)
-Setanta
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Cheatwood |"I could be sitting here all day!" - Hurricane
Ohio University, Athens |"Some day you'll learn to play pinball" - ST:TNG
bche...@ace.cs.ohiou.edu |Smile, it makes the world wonder what you're up to!
Matuse
>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: Realms of Despair on the other hand is an almost straight from the box
>: merc nightmare (bias here again, I hate mercs). It has essentially *NO*
>: original features, the ones snider claims are original have existed on
>: other muds for many YEARS, yet he still try to claim credit for
>: re-inventing the wheel. And then gets all uppity when someone points out
>: that fact that his mud is exactly like 20-30 other mercs on the net.
>
>(1) As you state... "merc nightmare"... it the merc out of the box...
>Because my mud is *NOT* "straight from the box", it is not the nightmare
>that merc is. If you're going to say Realms is straight from the box...
>then you should also say that Rom2 is "almost straight from the box",
>and that EnvyMud is indeed straight from the box... and I won't even
>mention EdgeMud.
Can you get it through your thick head that I don't care about what the
code looks like? IT RUNS THE SAME, SO IT *IS* THE SAME. My position on
mercs has been spelled out really clearly, and part of my dislike is how
totally similar all the mercs (well, most of 'em) are. Fact is, your mud
plays, with almost totally insignificant changes, just like any of a
dozen other mercs, yet you foolishly claim that you've changed it so much
as to not require following the license.
I've never played rom, or envy, or edge, because they are all mercs, i
would never have played YOURS if the credits were there...because its a merc.
Derek Snider
: In article <3a6om9$3...@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>,
Those things were easy to implement, and I did them myself for your
information. If you had a chance to see my auto-wizlist code... you'd
see it looks nothing like circle's code... (I suppose, since I never
looked at circlemuds wizlist code... I'll have to compare it)
Matuse
Derek Snider
: "Statutory damages" are damages specified in the statute, as opposed to
: that you actually suffered. If you registered your work prior to
: infringement, you can skip showing any actual damage, and just elect to
: receive statutory damages. 17 U.S.C. 504(a).
IS some actual damage of any value.
What you're quoting is still based on someone making a profit from
someone else's work.
P.S.: RoD isn't located in the U.S.
Furry
: P.S.: RoD isn't located in the U.S.
Doesn't matter.. we have laws rather similar to that here in Canada too.
--
-- Alex
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Alex Fletcher c/o The Fantastic Furry World
Located in lots of places.
The opinions expressed here are mine, so in the immortal words
of Bob McKenzie, 'Take off, Eh?'
Matuse
>In article <matuseCz...@netcom.com> mat...@netcom.com (Matuse) writes:
>>Can you get it through your thick head that I don't care about what the
>>code looks like? IT RUNS THE SAME, SO IT *IS* THE SAME. My position on
>
>Hey, my 1984 Cavalier runs like a Corvette, so it IS a Corvette! Putting
What derek has done is analagous to buying a corvette, removing the outer
body, replacing it with a cavalier body (slightly modified to fit) and
calling it your own invention. Regardless of the pretty minor changes you
make, it'll still drive just like a corvette.
>know anyways, the code and how a mud 'looks' can be two different things. :)
>If you change the look, by simple logic you must have changed the code, but
>if you've changed the code, you've not necessarily changed the look.
Um....no. If he re-wrote every single line of code, and yet when he
played it, it looked exactly like, and played exactly like it does now
(ie: a standard merc) he is still on copyright violation for "look and feel".
If he changed the code so that instead of n/e/s/w, it was left, right,
forward, backward, it wouldn't be coded or look like a merc, so maybe he
could get away from that. But the fact is, he hasn't changed the game
worth shit, either code or playwise. Every single feature or bug fix he
has EVER mentioned has existed on other muds (usually on LOTS of other muds)
for years, yet he still claims enough originality to not follow the
copyright..which is just blatant bullshit.
Matuse
>Lars Balker Rasmussen (gn...@daimi.aau.dk) wrote:
>: wa...@btree.brooktree.com (Wanda Jackson-Lyons) writes:
>: >That was then, this is now. And even if he were to put the names on that
>: >screen, we would STILL hear about how they USED to not be there for
>: >eternity...
>
>
>: Are we still bitching over the fact that the internal credits were missing
>: for a long, long time? We might bitch about them having the wrong
>: contents, but we don't, as they at least have some of the RIGHT contents.
>: But, just to follow your argument: Try us.
>
>No Gnort... i believe the ball is in YOUR court.
You misread what he says. You claim that if you put the credits in, that
me and the others will continue complaining about how they weren't there
before. Gnort challenges your claim: Put the credit in, and watch us shut up
about it.
Wanda Lyons
: In article <sinCzJ...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: ><laff..>
: ^^^^^^^
: Better than a *yawn* i guess ;)
ya.. but i think another yawn is in order as this isn't getting anybody
anywhere, is it?
: I think its pretty obvious that med and RoD are guilty (RoD moreso, but
: thats a different thread). The license.doc REQUIRES the prescence of the
: names at the login screen, your mud is a diku, and does not have them,
: therefore it is clearly in violation. You cannot argue this, because it
: is a FACT. No opinion has been presented there, your mud does not live up to
: the terms in the license which is the basis for possesing the code and
: modifying it in the first place. Just because you don't feel like putting
: the credits in (which from yours and vryce's post seems to be the
: attitude about this) doesn't mean you are not in violation like you often
: proclaim.
I'm not going to argue with you. Nor will i continue to restate my
position further. As you can't seem to see that i haven't once denied the
lack of the diku team names on the opening screen. And while you've at
least conceded the fact that there is no thievory intended on the part of
Medievia, this isn't getting anybody anywhere.
I do have to point out however, that i find it amusing that you feel that
you are so far above the rest of us that you can make the determination
of whether a person is guilty of a crime or not. Must be nice. I guess
we'll have to change your title here from Chief of rgmDiku police, to all
that plus /Judge & Jury... :)
Sultress...
198.69.186.36 4000
--
________________________________________________________________________
Sin.. the Sultress of Medievia s...@netcom.com
Come MUD With Me! medievia.netaxs.com 4000
Brian Moore
: Auto-flame list? Figures. For someone to be called a thief, something
: has to be stolen. Tell me what Medievia stole from the Diku team? And
: before YOU go waving your self-righteous penis, let's hope you know what
: you're talking about.
They have stolen the code, of course.
: If you don't have time to check something out for yourself, how can you
: even espress an opinion about it? "Because somebody said so" does not
: make it so. Only an idiot would buy beachfront property in Wyoming over
: the phone.
Don't be a moron. I know it's hard, but try to read. I said I do not go
down the mud list: I didn't say that I don't connect to sites that are
alleged to be out of compliance.
: Since NO body has been proven guilty why have you already given them the
: death penalty? I would think you would at least wait until they had been
: arrested.
Death penalty? Geeze, you need to get a life.
Lars Balker Rasmussen
wa...@btree.brooktree.com (Wanda Jackson-Lyons) writes:
>>: listed under the credit command either.
>
>>Used to be they WERN'T. It was the bitching and moaning here that got them.
>
>screen, we would STILL hear about how they USED to not be there for
>eternity...
Sorry Wanda, but this argument is insanely stupid.
Are we still bitching over the fact that the internal credits were missing
for a long, long time? We might bitch about them having the wrong
contents, but we don't, as they at least have some of the RIGHT contents.
But, just to follow your argument: Try us.
Gnort
Lars Balker Rasmussen
de...@cid.compulink.com (Derek Snider) writes:
>I was happy to leave the CREDITS intact... until I got 10 million complaints
>about the names on the opening welcome screen... it wasn't until then that
>I disposed of them.
Whoops, Derek!
You just admitted that you believe that your mud is derived from DikuMUD.
This argument doesn't hold. I have NEVER heard of ANYONE complaining about
TWO lines of names in all my years as a dikumud person. Again, I request
some sources.
Gnort, assuming he's in Dereks kill-file, since he gets no replies.
Wanda Lyons
: s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: >That we are "VASTLY in the wrong", is YOUR opinion, nothing more.
: Well, actually, dear Wanda, it's also the opinion of the Diku team, but
: maybe their opinion doesn't count?
Dear Lars, of course their opinion counts. And they have every right to
it, and to express it. I wasn't aware that Mr. Mateus was now a
spokesperson for the Diku team. (Congratulations Matt!)
Even still, an opinion is just an opinion. Doesn't make it true, or
right or wrong for that matter.
Sultress
Matuse
>: Devon Sharky (devon@@photobooks.gatech.edu) wrote:
>: Again, please give some names and I'll put them in my auto-flamer. Anyone
>: that refuses to give credit where credit is due (both ethically and
>: legally) does not deserve the cooperation of the net and/or this newsgroup.
>
>death penalty? I would think you would at least wait until they had been
>arrested.
^^^^^^^
Better than a *yawn* i guess ;)
I think its pretty obvious that med and RoD are guilty (RoD moreso, but
thats a different thread). The license.doc REQUIRES the prescence of the
names at the login screen, your mud is a diku, and does not have them,
therefore it is clearly in violation. You cannot argue this, because it
is a FACT. No opinion has been presented there, your mud does not live up to
the terms in the license which is the basis for possesing the code and
modifying it in the first place. Just because you don't feel like putting
the credits in (which from yours and vryce's post seems to be the
attitude about this) doesn't mean you are not in violation like you often
proclaim.
Wanda Lyons
: wa...@btree.brooktree.com (Wanda Jackson-Lyons) writes:
: >>: Vryce was trying to NOT give credit where credit is due, they wouldn't be
: >>: listed under the credit command either.
: >
: >>Used to be they WERN'T. It was the bitching and moaning here that got them.
: >
: >That was then, this is now. And even if he were to put the names on that
: >screen, we would STILL hear about how they USED to not be there for
: >eternity...
: Sorry Wanda, but this argument is insanely stupid.
: Are we still bitching over the fact that the internal credits were missing
: for a long, long time? We might bitch about them having the wrong
: contents, but we don't, as they at least have some of the RIGHT contents.
: But, just to follow your argument: Try us.
: Gnort
No Gnort... i believe the ball is in YOUR court.
Sultress
Wanda Lyons
: In article <sinCzJ...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: >Lars Balker Rasmussen (gn...@daimi.aau.dk) wrote:
: >: In article <sinCyx...@netcom.com>,
: >: s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: >: >That we are "VASTLY in the wrong", is YOUR opinion, nothing more.
: >
: >: Well, actually, dear Wanda, it's also the opinion of the Diku team, but
: >: maybe their opinion doesn't count?
: >Even still, an opinion is just an opinion. Doesn't make it true, or
: Ah, but saying that someone is wrong just because you think they are is also
: an opinion...and since that is the arguement you use to defend the lack of
: credits, you are in the same area as you describe. The difference being that
: the rest of us have the law and the license.doc on our side, whereas you just
: have "well i don't think it should be".
Excuse me Matt? I've never said ANYbody was wrong. Please don't put words
into my fingers. 'k? Nor have i presented any defense for the lack of
credits on the opening screen. I don't have to as i haven't denied that
fact.
Granted, you have the license.doc. As far as the law goes, without a
guilty verdict, that isn't much more than what we have.
Matuse
>: In article <sinCyx...@netcom.com>,
>: s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
>: >That we are "VASTLY in the wrong", is YOUR opinion, nothing more.
>
>: Well, actually, dear Wanda, it's also the opinion of the Diku team, but
>: maybe their opinion doesn't count?
>
>Dear Lars, of course their opinion counts. And they have every right to
>it, and to express it. I wasn't aware that Mr. Mateus was now a
>spokesperson for the Diku team. (Congratulations Matt!)
Uh, sorry, no. I (periodically) speak for AnotherMud, and always for myself.
I've never spoken "for" the diku team...their opinion and mine happen to
coincide on this point.
>Even still, an opinion is just an opinion. Doesn't make it true, or
>right or wrong for that matter.
Ah, but saying that someone is wrong just because you think they are is also
an opinion...and since that is the arguement you use to defend the lack of
credits, you are in the same area as you describe. The difference being that
the rest of us have the law and the license.doc on our side, whereas you just
have "well i don't think it should be".
--
Wanda Lyons
: : violating the DIKU license in the same manner as Medeivia and Realms
: : without comment.
: Those are the only two I know of. I have better things to do than to
: go down the MUD list and find who and who isn't in compliance. If others
: are violating it, please be specific and I'll add them to my auto-flame
: list. I do have other problems with both the above MUDs as well, but that
: is mostly related to the penis-waving that goes on as part of their insistence
: that they do to justify their thievery. Neither MUD is the be-all-end-all
: (or "The future of MUDding") that they claim to be, neither is even very
: original: but that is also related to their claims of being ultra-modified.
Auto-flame list? Figures. For someone to be called a thief, something
has to be stolen. Tell me what Medievia stole from the Diku team? And
before YOU go waving your self-righteous penis, let's hope you know what
you're talking about.
If you don't have time to check something out for yourself, how can you
even espress an opinion about it? "Because somebody said so" does not
make it so. Only an idiot would buy beachfront property in Wyoming over
the phone.
: Again, please give some names and I'll put them in my auto-flamer. Anyone
: that refuses to give credit where credit is due (both ethically and
: legally) does not deserve the cooperation of the net and/or this newsgroup.
Since NO body has been proven guilty why have you already given them the
death penalty? I would think you would at least wait until they had been
arrested.
<laff..>
Sultress
Wanda Lyons
: In article <sinCzJ...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
: >Lars Balker Rasmussen (gn...@daimi.aau.dk) wrote:
: >: Are we still bitching over the fact that the internal credits were missing
: >: for a long, long time? We might bitch about them having the wrong
: >: contents, but we don't, as they at least have some of the RIGHT contents.
: >: But, just to follow your argument: Try us.
: >
: >No Gnort... i believe the ball is in YOUR court.
: You misread what he says. You claim that if you put the credits in, that
: me and the others will continue complaining about how they weren't there
: before. Gnort challenges your claim: Put the credit in, and watch us shut up
: about it.
<chuckle>
No Matt.. i didn't misread what he said. I just declined his "Try us."
And just for clarification Matt, i never said YOU would continue to
complain. I'm pretty confident that you wouldn't. However there are
others who would. Others with a more personal grudge against Medievia.
At any rate, this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the fact that the
names are not there. I never meant that as a line of defense, or to be
taken seriously.
Sultress
198.69.186.36 4000
Wanda Lyons
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Subject: Re: Medievia article
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.diku
References: <sinCyp...@netcom.com> <matuseCy...@netcom.com> <sinCyt...@netcom.com> <matuseCy...@netcom.com> <gnort.784646133@tours> <3a7s57$9...@mordred.gatech.edu> <3a7uei$n...@pith.uoregon.edu> <sinCzJ...@netcom.com> <3amr9k$ka2@pith
.uoregon.edu>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Brian Moore (bmo...@cie-2.uoregon.edu) wrote:
: Wanda Lyons (s...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : Auto-flame list? Figures. For someone to be called a thief, something
: : has to be stolen. Tell me what Medievia stole from the Diku team? And
: : before YOU go waving your self-righteous penis, let's hope you know what
: : you're talking about.
: They have stolen the code, of course.
How is it stealing if they give full credit to them? As i thought..you
don't have a clue.
: : If you don't have time to check something out for yourself, how can you
: : even espress an opinion about it? "Because somebody said so" does not
: : make it so. Only an idiot would buy beachfront property in Wyoming over
: : the phone.
: Don't be a moron. I know it's hard, but try to read. I said I do not go
: down the mud list: I didn't say that I don't connect to sites that are
: alleged to be out of compliance.
And you never said that you did. You said gimme some names so i can add
them to my list. I'll stop being a moron if you will.
: : Since NO body has been proven guilty why have you already given them the
: : death penalty? I would think you would at least wait until they had been
: : arrested.
: Death penalty? Geeze, you need to get a life.
Come on.. certainly even you can take an analogy and apply it to the
discussion at hand. Then again..maybe you can't.
The calibur of flamers is at an all time low. Time for a vacation.
See ya!
Sultress
Come MUD With Me!
@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@@@@
@@! @@! @@! @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
@!! !!@ @!@ @!!!:! @!@ !@! !!@ @!!!:! @!@ !@! !!@ @!@!@!@!
!!: !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: !: .:! !!: !!: !!!
: : : :: ::: :: : : : : :: ::: :: : : : :
intense.netaxs.com 4000 198.69.186.36 4000
Brian Moore
: How is it stealing if they give full credit to them? As i thought..you
Simple: look at the login screen and compare what there with what is supposed
to be there.
: : Don't be a moron. I know it's hard, but try to read. I said I do not go
: : down the mud list: I didn't say that I don't connect to sites that are
: : alleged to be out of compliance.
: And you never said that you did. You said gimme some names so i can add
: them to my list. I'll stop being a moron if you will.
And any names given to me I check. If you are really bored, check the log
files from Medievia... I have been there.
: : : Since NO body has been proven guilty why have you already given them the
: : : death penalty? I would think you would at least wait until they had been
: : : arrested.
: : Death penalty? Geeze, you need to get a life.
: Come on.. certainly even you can take an analogy and apply it to the
: discussion at hand. Then again..maybe you can't.
Not when the analogy is non-sensical. Show me how flaming Medievia's
lack of credits is akin to a death sentence. Analogies work because
of commonalities. Yours doesn't work.
: The calibur of flamers is at an all time low. Time for a vacation.
A good, then the quality shall go up. Thanks.
: See ya!
I hope not.
Lars Balker Rasmussen
s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
>Matuse (mat...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In article <sinCzJ...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Wanda Lyons) writes:
>: >Lars Balker Rasmussen (gn...@daimi.aau.dk) wrote:
>
>: >: Are we still bitching over the fact that the internal credits were missing
>: >: for a long, long time? We might bitch about them having the wrong
>: >: contents, but we don't, as they at least have some of the RIGHT contents.
>: >: But, just to follow your argument: Try us.
>: >
>: >No Gnort... i believe the ball is in YOUR court.
>
>
>No Matt.. i didn't misread what he said. I just declined his "Try us."
Then how is the ball in our court?
The only possible way this can be resolved is if one of two things happen:
1) Mr. Krause puts back in the credits he removed, and comply with the
license.
2) All of us tire and go away.
Er, make that three:
3) Nuclear strike wipes out the Medievia host.
Now, the various probabilities of any of the above scenarioes happening can
be discussed from now till doomsday, but I can assure you that 2) has a
very low one.
So what can WE do? (Aside from nuking netaxs.com.)
>And just for clarification Matt, i never said YOU would continue to
>complain. I'm pretty confident that you wouldn't. However there are
>others who would. Others with a more personal grudge against Medievia.
And so what? Their concerns will probably mostly be related to things not
concerning the license, but rather the way the game is being run. Surely
their hypothetical flaming shouldn't bar you from complying with the wishes
of the Diku group?
>At any rate, this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the fact that the
>names are not there. I never meant that as a line of defense, or to be
>taken seriously.
Er, good.