My hat's off to Servina
Butt Ko Witz
morals and ethics above the standard self-centered philosophy that
seems the norm on Med. Also for Servina's apparent maturity over the
matter, as shown on a web page he put up about it (sorry, not posting
url, Servina can do that if he so desires).
Although I didn't know Servina on Med (recent god), nor do I know who
his mortal is, I would extend my hand and offer a hearty shake.
Unfortunately possibly the only "pay off" he might get from taking the
moral and ethical path.
3 down, how many to go before Mike decides he needs to fess up and
clean up Med in order to keep the game running with _good_ support
staff? Support staff with morals.. oh wait, guess that doesn't matter
to him and others who are in the know.
Omawarisan
M. Whittington
Seems like a double-edged sword, cutting both ways. As the more
ethical (I resist the word "moral" due to, well, many reasons)
immortals depart, does it not stand to reason that the staff
becomes less ethical, overall? And isn't a lack of ethics the
problem to begin with? I suspect you're right, though, that the
sole payoff for those of you leaving will be the knowledge that
you've stood your ground and held true to your convictions. And
that, oddly, is often the only true reward for so acting. Vryce,
and those like him, will never understand the value of such rewards,
which is why the departure was needed in the first place. Of course,
if it helps, a great many of us admire you and the others who have
taken the hard road. It shows a depth of character either missing
or hidden here in the death throes of the 20th Century.
So I'll join you in lauding Servina's decision.
Reginleif of Harshlands MUD
Butt Ko Witz
wrote:
> As the more
>ethical (I resist the word "moral" due to, well, many reasons)
Not meant as a flame, but "morals" is a direct result of "ethics",
from my understanding of the terms anyway.
Ethics being the society's concensus that something (the theory of
situation "X") is wrong or right. Morals is the personal reaction to
the concensus.
Society (ethics) define "X" as being wrong. Morals, by definition,
would dictate shunning "X".
Society define "Y" is right. Morals, by definition, dictate embracing
"Y".
Morals being a personal and direct reaction to society's ethics about
"X".
Course then we have one group's "ethics" pressed upon another group's
"ethics" causing conflict between the groups, and conflicts within
one's personal morals. The Moral Majority for example. Another example
would be the "Don't ask don't tell" policy of Mediev..err the army.
As to Medievia, I find it disheartening that those that have looked at
the issues, and see the ethics of it, don't have the morals to follow
the ethical path. Or is it: follow their moral path to the ethical
solution.
Anywho, I never scored very well in Philosophy, which is probably
apparent by this post. :)
Omawarisan
rr...@lanminds.com
>Not meant as a flame, but "morals" is a direct result of "ethics",
>from my understanding of the terms anyway.
>
>Ethics being the society's concensus that something (the theory of
>situation "X") is wrong or right. Morals is the personal reaction to
>the concensus.
>
>Society (ethics) define "X" as being wrong. Morals, by definition,
>would dictate shunning "X".
>Society define "Y" is right. Morals, by definition, dictate embracing
>"Y".
>
>Morals being a personal and direct reaction to society's ethics about
>"X".
>Course then we have one group's "ethics" pressed upon another group's
>"ethics" causing conflict between the groups, and conflicts within
>one's personal morals. The Moral Majority for example. Another example
>would be the "Don't ask don't tell" policy of Mediev..err the army.
>
>As to Medievia, I find it disheartening that those that have looked at
>the issues, and see the ethics of it, don't have the morals to follow
>the ethical path. Or is it: follow their moral path to the ethical
>solution.
>
Well.. maybe this is a result of what you posted above, about
differing groups and personal morals. There are people who can look
at a situation like Medievia and have it be ethically/morally ok with
them. It all depends on what you base your moral viewpoint off of.
Hedonists, as I recall, take the very simple view of "if it brings me
pleasure, it's good", which would be right in line with Vryce's
actions.
Kira Skydancer
Fredfish
>
> On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 19:20:59 GMT, st...@eden.com (M. Whittington)
> wrote:
>
> > As the more
> >ethical (I resist the word "moral" due to, well, many reasons)
>
> from my understanding of the terms anyway.
>
> Ethics being the society's concensus that something (the theory of
> situation "X") is wrong or right. Morals is the personal reaction to
> the concensus.
>
> Society (ethics) define "X" as being wrong. Morals, by definition,
> would dictate shunning "X".
> Society define "Y" is right. Morals, by definition, dictate embracing
> "Y".
>
> Morals being a personal and direct reaction to society's ethics about
> "X".
> Course then we have one group's "ethics" pressed upon another group's
> "ethics" causing conflict between the groups, and conflicts within
> one's personal morals. The Moral Majority for example. Another example
> would be the "Don't ask don't tell" policy of Mediev..err the army.
>
> As to Medievia, I find it disheartening that those that have looked at
> the issues, and see the ethics of it, don't have the morals to follow
> the ethical path. Or is it: follow their moral path to the ethical
> solution.
>
> apparent by this post. :)
>
> Omawarisan
Au contraire, mon ami, tu es tres correcte! RETURN 0; (sorry, just tried
to email someone in french, hadn't got out of the function ;) )
An interesting consequence of all this is that Micheal Krause is thusly
considered 'ethical' within the Medievia community, and you, Omawarisan,
could thus be considered immoral. :)
Seriously, I find it pretty damn depressing that Medievia gods remain
silent on this. As a former god, can you answer to the best of your
abilities:
a) How many of the Med gods SHOULD know, /have the ability to know/ that
Med is Diku/Merc?
Really, this should be everyone, but I won't jump to conclusions.
b) How many of them actually profess to know, or at least will not deny
it if asked directly?
Hmm... even Vyrce meets this definition. (I have consulted my legal
staff on this issue and they assure me it is not an issue... bla bla bla
open-source copyrights are all unenforceable... bla bla bla Med ad...
bla bla bla you're all 14 year olds (Hey, that's me Vyrce!))
c) How many of them express any concern, discomfort, or unease with the
situation? (Er, with the situation that Med == Diku, not that,
continuing the analogy, 'Med' is a global variable :) )
Anyway, this is only for my own personal curiousity, not out of any
particular desire to destroy Med, conquer the world, or eat pickles.
BTW, would anyone like to see the statistics i've come up with about Med
money-making? They're very... disturbing...
::: Fredfish :::
Found 9768442 matches for "information overload".
Butt Ko Witz
<oxford_S...@ISon.aibnBAD.com> wrote:
>a) How many of the Med gods SHOULD know, /have the ability to know/ that
>Med is Diku/Merc?
This is hard to answer. _I_ should have known long ago. But anytime
anything popped up that was "anti-med" or "diku this, merc that" I
just ignored it. Once KaVir's site was up, I went to check out the
rumors. And here I am.
Anyway, "How many ... SHOULD know"? I'd say any god that's been around
for more than a year _should_ know. And any god level 136+ (of which a
few are insta 136's or even 140's and regardless of their "rank"
_should_ be wise enough to research before spouting opinions).
How many have the ability to know that it's diku/merc? Well from the
med side, only those that code. Mostly 144+ gods. Any coder with a
clue, I've been told, can easily see what is NOT original to Medievia
(I personally have not seen enough code online, nor do I know enough
about coding to know). But anyone with some brain functions can look
at KaVir's comparisons and look at the Medievia supporting
"rebuttals" aka advertisements and come to a conclusion.
>b) How many of them actually profess to know, or at least will not deny
>it if asked directly?
Far as I know it's a short list:
1. Thranz (worked on code, openly admits it is based on Diku)
2. Servina (not sure on his opinions over the code, far as I know he
never coded for Med, but he removed himself over the issues anyway)
3. Myself (Omawarisan) (never coded for med, 100% belief the code is
based on Diku, 90% certain V will never admit it until forced in a
court of law).
4. Rumor is another god has spoken out. A god that has been with Med
for a long time (pre Med IV, and pre-med III or maybe earlier).
5-et. al. . I know of only one other that, if asked directly, would
not deny it or just skirt the issue. Probably some past gods with
knowledge would not deny it, but I have no contacts with any -- and
there are potential grudges against Medievia that might be mixed with
biased opinions anyway.
As far as the current staff and coders, I really don't know. I believe
many blindly support anything Vryce says -- speaking out, or simply
asking about the issue will only result in flames from V anyway. I
have great respect for all coders on med, past and present -- with the
exception of Mike Krause. These are the people who have actually built
Medievia with zero return, other than personal satisfaction at making
many others happy. But these are also the ones that _know_, and
continue to disrespect fellow coders (perhaps unintentionally, but
nonetheless..) while supporting Mike's wallet off the works of many
others, in particular the Diku team.
>c) How many of them express any concern, discomfort, or unease with the
>situation? (Er, with the situation that Med == Diku, not that,
>continuing the analogy, 'Med' is a global variable :) )
Not really sure, as I don't receive the medgod mail anymore, nor do I
log into med. But I'm sure it is or was an issue. I know Servina
posted to medgod about his removal, so the issue is obviously around
Med/MedGod.
Knowing how it is as an imm on med, few speak about it. The new gods
would be afraid of rocking the boat. V would be rudely replying to any
topics about Diku which would certainly curtail 80+% of the gods from
further discussions. I'd say few are uncomfortable enough to interrupt
their fun (or their power trip) to care enough about their morals vs.
V's master plan.
Funny, I have the desire to play some Lemmings,
Omawarisan.
KaVir
oxford...@on.aibn.com wrote:
>
[huge snip]
> BTW, would anyone like to see the statistics i've come up with about
> Med money-making? They're very... disturbing...
I've love to! Going by information I've gathered from various Med
players, my estimate is around the $800k mark (total, since 1995).
What sort of estimates have you come up with?
KaVir.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
thr...@my-deja.com
> morals and ethics above the standard self-centered philosophy that
> seems the norm on Med. Also for Servina's apparent maturity over the
> matter, as shown on a web page he put up about it (sorry, not posting
> url, Servina can do that if he so desires).
>
> Although I didn't know Servina on Med (recent god), nor do I know who
> his mortal is, I would extend my hand and offer a hearty shake.
> Unfortunately possibly the only "pay off" he might get from taking the
> moral and ethical path.
>
> 3 down, how many to go before Mike decides he needs to fess up and
> clean up Med in order to keep the game running with _good_ support
> staff? Support staff with morals.. oh wait, guess that doesn't matter
> to him and others who are in the know.
>
> Omawarisan
Well-said Oma. Unfortunately there are also a number of "drone gods"
(as I call them) who think it somehow makes them superior to others (in
their small little fishbowl) just to have a meaningless god on Med and
blindly ignore the fact the people like Michael Krause are the reason
that publicly developed code has an achille's heel. They also don't
seem to realize how they are exploited into working for him for free
while he collects large sums of money off of stolen code.
I am currently coding a new MUD engine written entirely in Java that I
am very proud of and am struggling on how/if I will release the project
into the public domain mainly because of people like Michael Krause who
supplement their lackluster coding skills by stealing other people's
code.
Thranz
KaVir
thr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
[snip]
> I am currently coding a new MUD engine written entirely in Java that I
> am very proud of and am struggling on how/if I will release the
> project into the public domain mainly because of people like Michael
> Krause who supplement their lackluster coding skills by stealing
> other people's code.
While I don't know much about java, it's my understanding that the code
is compiled down to bytecode which can then run on any platform. In
this case, couldn't you choose to only release the core classes in
bytecode form? Assuming there was decent documentation, people could
still develop their muds quite extensively - but they wouldn't have
access to the full source code.
You could also try taking a standard legal license such as the artistic
license (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/artistic-license.html),
which is presumably much more enforcable than the Diku license
(although I'm still wary about what could be considered "user support").
Another thing you might want to do is offer an alternative license,
which DOES allow profit to be made - but sell the license for a fixed
figure (eg $50k). Should someone not pay that, you WOULD be able to
claim back losses. While such a paltry sum would hardly dent the money
Vryce makes from his Diku derivative, it would certainly be enough to
put most people off.
KaVir.
David S. Rubin
> Funny, I have the desire to play some Lemmings,
> Omawarisan.
Now THERE'S a good game! Maybe someone should develop LemMUD - where
the object is to _prevent_ the mobs from killing themselves?
Cheers,
David S. Rubin <dav...@touro.edu> - Certified Novell Administrator!
[Rahvin (Guardian of the Knowledge, Mystical -<SHAMAN>-) on Mystic Adventures]
--
"What are words for when no-one listens anymore;
When no-one listens, it's no use talking at all."
"Words" - The Kinks
Michael Dunlap
>While I don't know much about java, it's my understanding that the code
>is compiled down to bytecode which can then run on any platform. In
>this case, couldn't you choose to only release the core classes in
>bytecode form? Assuming there was decent documentation, people could
>still develop their muds quite extensively - but they wouldn't have
>access to the full source code.
It is very easy to extract source from a bytecode....grab a program
like JAD (Java Decompiler) and you're all set.
<snip>
>Another thing you might want to do is offer an alternative license,
>which DOES allow profit to be made - but sell the license for a fixed
>figure (eg $50k). Should someone not pay that, you WOULD be able to
>claim back losses. While such a paltry sum would hardly dent the money
>Vryce makes from his Diku derivative, it would certainly be enough to
>put most people off.
Yes, but then how do people make use of the codebase? Unless maybe
you stipulate that if they intend to make money off of it they need to
buy the liscense...Sun does something like this for their Solaris
software. Corporations must buy a liscense...but individual users can
get the software free (pay shipping) if it's for personal use.
-Michael