Questions on Firmirs and stuff
Fhaolan
I've been playing Warhammer 40K for a few months now (Orks! Orks! Orks
is best! We kills them all and shootz da rest!... Sorry. Couldn't help
myself. :) And the group I play with also does regular Warhammer. I
want to try something different than Orks this time, and went looking
for something more obscure.
I was glancing through a friend of mine's old Warhammer books, and he
pointed out the race known as the Firmir, or something spelled
similar. He also mentioned that at some point there were actual
miniatures and an army list for them (though as alies to Chaos, I
think).
I was curious...
1) Did this army list actually exist officially, or was it a 'house
rule' book put out by someone other than GW?
2) How many miniatures were ever made for them? This doesn't matter so
much, as I've scratch-built mini's before. I'm just a bit frightened
by the idea of scratch-building the *entire* army without *anything*
to use as a 'model'... :)
3) Assuming the previous two are true, has anyone ever used them in a
battle?
4) Being new to the hobby, I'm a little vague on the concept of Ally
forces. Is it completely banned to field an army of ally-type forces?
Do you *have* to have a core of one of the main races?
Oh, and on an semi-unrelated note...
5) I like the Gorkamorka miniatures. In many cases they seem more
detailed than their equivalant 40K versions. However, some of the
vehicles are armed with weapons not in the Orks Codex. Such as the
Wrekker Trukk with that cannon-ball on a chain, or a Rokket Buggy. Are
there 'official' rules somewhere for using these mini's with 40K, or
are they just considered flat-out illegal?
-Fhaolan, ark...@istar.ca
-
Andrew Tobin
>I was curious...
>
>1) Did this army list actually exist officially, or was it a 'house
>rule' book put out by someone other than GW?
Actually there were rules produced by GW for Fimir. If you can get a
of a copy of WD #102 on pg19-22 has all that stuff. Plus stuff for
fantasy roleplay.
>2) How many miniatures were ever made for them? This doesn't matter so
>much, as I've scratch-built mini's before. I'm just a bit frightened
>by the idea of scratch-building the *entire* army without *anything*
>to use as a 'model'... :)
At leat nine different models were made. Theses are on page 23 of the
same WD
>3) Assuming the previous two are true, has anyone ever used them in a
>battle?
I liked playing with them
>4) Being new to the hobby, I'm a little vague on the concept of Ally
>forces. Is it completely banned to field an army of ally-type forces?
>Do you *have* to have a core of one of the main races?
>
>Oh, and on an semi-unrelated note...
>
>5) I like the Gorkamorka miniatures. In many cases they seem more
>detailed than their equivalant 40K versions. However, some of the
>vehicles are armed with weapons not in the Orks Codex. Such as the
>Wrekker Trukk with that cannon-ball on a chain, or a Rokket Buggy. Are
>there 'official' rules somewhere for using these mini's with 40K, or
>are they just considered flat-out illegal?
If you are planing on fielding Fimir even though they are not in the
new army list and therefore nonexistant and flat-out illegal, I say
play with what ever you want in 40K, I do.
>-Fhaolan, ark...@istar.ca
Andrew
PM Bowles
On 14 May 1998, Fhaolan wrote:
> I've been playing Warhammer 40K for a few months now (Orks! Orks! Orks
> is best! We kills them all and shootz da rest!... Sorry. Couldn't help
> myself. :) And the group I play with also does regular Warhammer. I
> want to try something different than Orks this time, and went looking
> for something more obscure.
>
> I was glancing through a friend of mine's old Warhammer books, and he
> pointed out the race known as the Firmir, or something spelled
> similar. He also mentioned that at some point there were actual
> miniatures and an army list for them (though as alies to Chaos, I
> think).
>
> I was curious...
>
> 1) Did this army list actually exist officially, or was it a 'house
> rule' book put out by someone other than GW?
Fimir were available as potential Chaos Champions in Realms of Chaos:
Slaves to Darkness (but then so were Dark Eldar) and rules for using
them in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay appeared in that book's bestiary. I
only started playing WFB with 4th Edition, by which time they had gone,
but I want them back. :-(
> 2) How many miniatures were ever made for them? This doesn't matter so
> much, as I've scratch-built mini's before. I'm just a bit frightened
> by the idea of scratch-building the *entire* army without *anything*
> to use as a 'model'... :)
Fimir plastics were released with MB's Heroquest; the minatures were
plastics. I don't know what else was made, but the Fimir are cyclopean
Lizardmen which resemble Sauruses and have a variety of tail variations
(these are indications of caste, and particularly high-level wizards
have two tails; a common tail was a Krokigor-like flail, and indeed I
mistook a Krox on the 5th Edition box for a redesigned, two-eyed Fimir.
I was unfortunate. :-( )
> 3) Assuming the previous two are true, has anyone ever used them in a
> battle?
I think so; they had reasonable WS (4 I believe), a high T and a couple
of wounds for basic troops and were protected by a magical fog which
made them difficult to hit (because they live in dark, mist-shrouded
swamps, they use the fog to protect them against the blinding effects of
direct sunlight).
> 4) Being new to the hobby, I'm a little vague on the concept of Ally
> forces. Is it completely banned to field an army of ally-type forces?
> Do you *have* to have a core of one of the main races?
At present, though there has been talk in White Dwarf of a Mercenaries
book, hopefully including such creatures as the Fimir. Most armies have
a restricted list of allies (eg, Lizardmen can't take allies, while Wood
Elves can ally only with High Elves, Bretonnians, The Empire and Dwarfs)
and can take a maximum of 25% of the force as allied troops.
> Oh, and on an semi-unrelated note...
>
> 5) I like the Gorkamorka miniatures. In many cases they seem more
> detailed than their equivalant 40K versions. However, some of the
> vehicles are armed with weapons not in the Orks Codex. Such as the
> Wrekker Trukk with that cannon-ball on a chain, or a Rokket Buggy. Are
> there 'official' rules somewhere for using these mini's with 40K, or
> are they just considered flat-out illegal?
The weapons don't exist, except for 'eavy shootas (40K heavy bolters)
and the Scorcha (the heavy flamer on the Wartrak Scorcher); the vehicles
do.
Philip Bowles
Fhaolan
On 14 May 1998, sc...@primenet.com (Andrew Tobin), and PM Bowles
<pb6...@bris.ac.uk> replied to my message:
>On 14 May 1998, Fhaolan wrote:
>> 1) Did this army list actually exist officially, or was it a 'house
>> rule' book put out by someone other than GW?
PM wrote:
>Fimir were available as potential Chaos Champions in Realms of Chaos:
>Slaves to Darkness (but then so were Dark Eldar) and rules for using
>them in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay appeared in that book's bestiary. I
>only started playing WFB with 4th Edition, by which time they had gone,
>but I want them back. :-(
Andrew wrote:
>Actually there were rules produced by GW for Fimir. If you can get a
>of a copy of WD #102 on pg19-22 has all that stuff. Plus stuff for
>fantasy roleplay.
Ah. Cool. :) I will see what I can do to get ahold of that mag, and
maybe even the StD book. Even if I don't field a force of Fimir, it
would be an interesting read.
>> 2) How many miniatures were ever made for them? This doesn't matter so
>> much, as I've scratch-built mini's before. I'm just a bit frightened
>> by the idea of scratch-building the *entire* army without *anything*
>> to use as a 'model'... :)
PM wrote:
>Fimir plastics were released with MB's Heroquest; the minatures were
>plastics. I don't know what else was made, but the Fimir are cyclopean
>Lizardmen which resemble Sauruses and have a variety of tail variations
>(these are indications of caste, and particularly high-level wizards
>have two tails; a common tail was a Krokigor-like flail, and indeed I
>mistook a Krox on the 5th Edition box for a redesigned, two-eyed Fimir.
>I was unfortunate. :-( )
Andrew wrote:
>At leat nine different models were made. Theses are on page 23 of the
>same WD
Hmmm. Okay, so that answers that one pretty firmly. Which means if I
want to do this, I'd be better off scrounging in the dark recesses of
various hobby shops, and grabbing some Lizardmen to modify.
I don't know if I have the time and energy to scratch-build an entire
army, but what the heck. :)
>> 3) Assuming the previous two are true, has anyone ever used them in a
>> battle?
PM wrote:
>I think so; they had reasonable WS (4 I believe), a high T and a couple
>of wounds for basic troops and were protected by a magical fog which
>made them difficult to hit (because they live in dark, mist-shrouded
>swamps, they use the fog to protect them against the blinding effects of
>direct sunlight).
Andrew wrote:
>I liked playing with them
Which is good enough for me. The 'magic mist' is hopefully not a
powergaming trick. I'll find that out when I get the books/magazines.
I like using odd tricks on the battlefield, but I'll leave the
'Ultimate Cosmic Power' toys to someone else. :)
>> 4) Being new to the hobby, I'm a little vague on the concept of Ally
>> forces. Is it completely banned to field an army of ally-type forces?
>> Do you *have* to have a core of one of the main races?
PM wrote:
>At present, though there has been talk in White Dwarf of a Mercenaries
>book, hopefully including such creatures as the Fimir. Most armies have
>a restricted list of allies (eg, Lizardmen can't take allies, while Wood
>Elves can ally only with High Elves, Bretonnians, The Empire and Dwarfs)
>and can take a maximum of 25% of the force as allied troops.
Hmmmm. Okay. I won't wait for GW to produce the Mercenaries book. I
know how low a priority it probably is for GW. It's not like every
Warhammer player will run out and buy a copy. Only those few who are
going to be interested in obscure forces to field.
>> 5) I like the Gorkamorka miniatures. In many cases they seem more
>> detailed than their equivalant 40K versions. However, some of the
>> vehicles are armed with weapons not in the Orks Codex. Such as the
>> Wrekker Trukk with that cannon-ball on a chain, or a Rokket Buggy. Are
>> there 'official' rules somewhere for using these mini's with 40K, or
>> are they just considered flat-out illegal?
PM wrote:
>The weapons don't exist, except for 'eavy shootas (40K heavy bolters)
>and the Scorcha (the heavy flamer on the Wartrak Scorcher); the vehicles
>do.
Andrew wrote:
>If you are planing on fielding Fimir even though they are not in the
>new army list and therefore nonexistant and flat-out illegal, I say
>play with what ever you want in 40K, I do.
*grin* That's why I said the question was semi-related to the others,
I sorta figured that if there probably wasn't conversion rules for
both Gorkamorka-to-40K and oldWarhammer-to-newWarhammer, but I had to
ask.
As for the Fimir, I'm sorta surprised that they haven't shown up in
any Codex as an Ally, as apparently there *were* official miniatures
at one point. Were the miniatures poorly made, and not worth
continuing? Or is it just that they didn't sell enough of them,
because they *were* so obscure?
-Fhaolan, ark...@istar.ca
Psilar
On 15 May 1998 01:36:23 GMT, ark...@istar.ca (Fhaolan) wrote:
>On 14 May 1998, sc...@primenet.com (Andrew Tobin), and PM Bowles
><pb6...@bris.ac.uk> replied to my message:
>>>Actually there were rules produced by GW for Fimir. If you can get a
>>of a copy of WD #102 on pg19-22 has all that stuff. Plus stuff for
>>fantasy roleplay.
>Ah. Cool. :) I will see what I can do to get ahold of that mag, and
>maybe even the StD book. Even if I don't field a force of Fimir, it
>would be an interesting read.
Well, I have the mag, I have WHFB 3rd edition, and I have a
scanner, so I'll try to help you out. I've sent you a scanned picture
with 9 Fimirs on it. I hope this will help you out and give you ideas.
If anyone else would like this scanned picture file, please
just send me an email asking for it and I'll send it to you. The file
is about 129K, which isn't so bad considering that it's a scanning of
a whole page. Just zoom in once and the pictures look great. If there
are problems, just let me know (nicely) and I'll fix it :-D.
Now, I'm trying to avoid spam, so please change the 'hatemail'
to 'hotmail' in my address. Thanks :-).
I hope you like the picture,
Psilar
SLovaas
I've used the Fimir as allies for the Orcs (as per 3rd edition rulebook). We
have a house and group rule that any 3rd edition troop type is ok as long as
the points and stats aren't too grossly overwhelming.
Like, what, did someone from the Empire go and exterminate ALL the Fimir one
day? I'd rather think that there are a few left in the remote mists that might
once & a while venture out if the Orcs bribe them well enough...
Same deal with Zoats for my Woodies.
And no, GW won't let you use them; same with any tourney or campaign, but
they're cool. And that's reason enough for us.
Steve Lovaas
SLo...@aol.com
ro...@my-dejanews.com
Hey all,
regarding Fimirs.
According to sources up high, Thr Fimir were based on drawings made by Jes
Goodwin, apparently inspired by the Jim Henson movie 'The Dark Crystal'.
They first appeared in WFRP, and subsequently 2nd edition WFB. When I asked
some of the designers about them, their eyes started to roll and they said
things like "oh no! Not the Fimir! They were terrible." Same goes for Zoats,
although they sort of said that both still exist, but aren't going to make an
appearence mainly becuase their forces aren't big enough to field armies
(mainly said because I was badgering them about lost races and if they were
allowed in WFRP).
In the UK at least, Fimir are still available from mail order. Plus, if you
can scrounge a copy of Heroquest, there were a load of smaller Fimir (probably
Shearl) with the game.
Happy Fimm hunting!
Robert Clark
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Jpattern
Yep, and there were Dark Crystal minis put out by Grenadier way back in the
late 70s/early 80s. Two boxed sets, scarce as hen's teeth now.
Jeff Moore
jpat...@aol.com
PM Bowles
On Wed, 20 May 1998 ro...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> regarding Fimirs.
>
> According to sources up high, Thr Fimir were based on drawings made by Jes
> Goodwin, apparently inspired by the Jim Henson movie 'The Dark Crystal'.
> They first appeared in WFRP, and subsequently 2nd edition WFB. When I asked
> some of the designers about them, their eyes started to roll and they said
> things like "oh no! Not the Fimir! They were terrible." Same goes for Zoats,
> although they sort of said that both still exist, but aren't going to make an
> appearence mainly becuase their forces aren't big enough to field armies
> (mainly said because I was badgering them about lost races and if they were
> allowed in WFRP).
>
> In the UK at least, Fimir are still available from mail order. Plus, if you
> can scrounge a copy of Heroquest, there were a load of smaller Fimir (probably
> Shearl) with the game.
It would be nice to see them in either Dogs of War (with a permanent
version of that old Jade foggy spell) or simply referred to in an army
book so that they 'officially' still exist (like the Trogldyte mentioned
in the Blood Bowl book).
Philip Bowles
Graeme Davis
Actually, Jes and I worked on them together. The Dark Crystal similarity is
coincidental, believe it or not - I showed Jes an illo of a Fomorian on the
cover of a paperback book of Irish folktales, and we went from there. It all
started when Bryan Ansell decided that WFRP should introduce a new race to
the WH world - "to be as distinctive of Warhammer as the Broo are of
Runequest" were his exact words if memory serves - and to this end he came
up with the Zoats, which everyone hated, but which he said would have to go
in if no-one could come up with anything better. And he *did* own the
company, so we took the threat seriously. So as I say, Jes and I came up
with the concept for Fimir, Jes did the designs and I did the culture and
game stats - and in the end, both Zoats and Fimir ended up in WFRP, and
nobody much cares for either race. The popularisation of Fimir wasn't helped
by a communications foul-up when Nick Bibby took over making the miniatures
from Jes - Nick made them all Ogre-sized, compared to Jes' and my idea that
they should be Orc sized. So we had big, expensive miniatures with low game
stats, and nobody bought them. Sigh.
Jpattern
Graeme Davis wrote:
>>So we had big, expensive miniatures with low game
stats, and nobody bought them. Sigh.<<
Well, *some* people liked them and bought them, myself included, but you're
right, they were pretty expensive. I never had more than 12 of the metal ones
for that reason. I'd still like to see them come back, though.
And thanks for posting, Graeme. I like these "behind the scenes" glimpses. It's
not often that I see posts from designers/creators on any of the newsgroups I
subscribe to, especially this one.
Jeff Moore
jpat...@aol.com
Eric Reel
In article <6jveko$1tq$1...@news1.rmi.net>, gra...@vr1.com says...
>stats, and nobody bought them. Sigh.
>
>
Interesting. I'd always assumed this race got dropped because of it's un-PC ness
( weren't these things always hauling off human females to breed with? ).
Anyway, I always thought they were kind of a neat army. Ah well...
Eric
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation.
Angulion
gra...@vr1.com wrote:
>>Actually, Jes and I worked on them together. The Dark Crystal similarity is
coincidental, believe it or not - I showed Jes an illo of a Fomorian on the
cover of a paperback book of Irish folktales, and we went from there.<<
A little "Balor of the Evil Eye" influence on the Fimir's cyclopean character
there, huh?
>> So as I say, Jes and I came up with the concept for Fimir, Jes did the
designs and I did the culture and game stats - and in the end, both Zoats and
Fimir ended up in WFRP, and nobody much cares for either race. The
popularisation of Fimir wasn't helped by a communications foul-up when Nick
Bibby took over making the miniatures from Jes - Nick made them all Ogre-sized,
compared to Jes' and my idea that they should be Orc sized. So we had big,
expensive miniatures with low game stats, and nobody bought them. Sigh.<<
Boo, hiss! I loved 'em. I want more of 'em. Can you really get them from the
UK? If so, how exactly do you go about it?
Graeme Davis
Eric Reel wrote in message <6jvko6$q...@news.microsoft.com>...
>
>Interesting. I'd always assumed this race got dropped because of it's
un-PC ness
>( weren't these things always hauling off human females to breed with? ).
>
>Anyway, I always thought they were kind of a neat army. Ah well...
People did comment on the un-PCness of them at the time (which I'd swiped
from the Orkney kunal-trow, a sort of relative of the fomorians), but no, it
was entirely commercial I think. I'm tempted to ask when did questions of
taste intervene (especially in those days, with the RoC books well into
development), but I'm not that bitter. Most of the time.
rebecca clark
PM Bowles wrote:
<<Snip>>
> >
> > 5) I like the Gorkamorka miniatures. In many cases they seem more
> > detailed than their equivalant 40K versions. However, some of the
> > vehicles are armed with weapons not in the Orks Codex. Such as the
> > Wrekker Trukk with that cannon-ball on a chain, or a Rokket Buggy. Are
> > there 'official' rules somewhere for using these mini's with 40K, or
> > are they just considered flat-out illegal?
>
> and the Scorcha (the heavy flamer on the Wartrak Scorcher); the vehicles
> do.
>
In a upcoming WD they are supposed to give rules for using the gorka
morka vehicles in 40k... Incidentally (sp?), I think the reason the
Gorka minis are so bad-ass is the same reason the ones fro Necro were so
bad... in that game EVERY model is a character model so they all haveta
look cool and slightly individual.
5715...@mmu.ac.uk
In article <6jveko$1tq$1...@news1.rmi.net>,
"Graeme Davis" <gra...@vr1.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, Jes and I worked on them together. The Dark Crystal similarity is
> coincidental, believe it or not - I showed Jes an illo of a Fomorian on the
> cover of a paperback book of Irish folktales, and we went from there.
Oops, sorry Graeme! Looks like disinformation from Rick P again...
> It all
> started when Bryan Ansell decided that WFRP should introduce a new race to
> the WH world - "to be as distinctive of Warhammer as the Broo are of
> Runequest" were his exact words if memory serves - and to this end he came
> up with the Zoats, which everyone hated, but which he said would have to go
> in if no-one could come up with anything better. And he *did* own the
> company, so we took the threat seriously.
Sounds like an extremely sensible idea, the new race thing. I always admired
Warhammer for its original elements, of course now I'm older and have read
some Moorcock, Tolkien and other stuff I'm not so sure ;)
Graeme, have you ever considered doing a write-up of the genesis of the
background? That would go great in Warpstone (a WFRP fanzine, folks)!
Robert "These Trolls are driving me crazy" Clark.
Gargamel
> coincidental,
They don't seem all that similar to me. The fimir I've seen looked like
Kroxigor-type things, and the ones in HeroQuest are lizardy too. The skeksis
were insectoid sort of bony things, not lizardy, or fimiry at all.
--
Gargamel : Arch-enemy of the bane of all humanity - The Smurfs. Ś
---------------------------------------------------------------'
garg...@argonet.co.uk /// For every PC out there, there's a Risc
/// waiting to be fulfilled.