40K: Don't Play With Resin!
Mark A. Renye
Hello All,
After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
- GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
them in tournaments.
- Resincast and Armorcast, although honorable in there business methods,
have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
Shadowswords, etc. The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
(Contrary to popular belief the GWUS staff really DOES care about the
average person, and not just monetarily).
I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
game. They just take the fun out of the game.
I realize that many people like using Titans and Super Heavies but these
are my opinions.
Unlike the popular slogan of the Arena people
Resin vehicles and huge points values are NOT the way the Game was meant
to be played. Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and have
personally spoken with Jervis Johnson. He agrees with what I've said.
(not a boast, a fact).
--
Mark A. Renye
"I am NOT a number, I am a FREE MAN!!"
Joe Duke
In article <crusader-130...@phl02-132-051.metrotron.com>,
crus...@metrotron.com says...
>Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
>game. They just take the fun out of the game.
How about the tanks that there are rules for?
Do you think as well they are a little silly in a squad based game?
Personally, I do .
my .02
Joe
Imam Sawez
I would have to both agree and disagree with Mr. Renye. 40k should be a
squad and skirmish level game. The old rogue trader rules were almost a
role-playing game! So yes, huge vehicles and scout Titans are a bit out of
the scale of the game. But on the other hand, and this is something we
must not overlook, the game is what you make it. And if part of what you
make it is a huge game, +6000 or so points a side, then there is a place
for the huge vehicles and the titans, provided that you have something
that matches those monsters.
And they can also be fun, in the way that Titan Legions isn't, because
you are facing something the size of an Englishman's ego. 40k is a great
skirmish game, but with enough players it can be a big points game too,
and that can kick butt just as much as 10 guys with 1 heavy weapon between
them against the equivalent in greenskins.
Imam Sawez im...@digex.net
Individual Connectivity Project
Coordinator Telecommute Solutions Group Digital Express Group,Inc.
"I know I keep quoting the commentaries. That's actually all I've read,
the commentaries. No actual text, just commentaries. Why do you ask?"
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Mark A. Renye wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
> observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
>
> - GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
> that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
> them in tournaments.
>
> - Resincast and Armorcast, although honorable in there business methods,
> have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
> believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
> Shadowswords, etc. The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
> from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
> that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
> in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
> (Contrary to popular belief the GWUS staff really DOES care about the
> average person, and not just monetarily).
>
> I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
> need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
> huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
> Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
> game. They just take the fun out of the game.
>
Moiner
In article <crusader-130...@phl02-132-051.metrotron.com>,
crus...@metrotron.com (Mark A. Renye) wrote:
>Hello All,
>
> After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
>observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
>
>- GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
>that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
>them in tournaments.
Until GW starts producing its own (having let Resincast and Armorcast do
its marketting research for free), you mean?
--
Moiner
"nobody knows everything, SO use everything you know!"
Derek Hollingdrake
Imam Sawez wrote:
>
> I would have to both agree and disagree with Mr. Renye. 40k should be a
> squad and skirmish level game. The old rogue trader rules were almost a
> role-playing game! So yes, huge vehicles and scout Titans are a bit out of
> the scale of the game. But on the other hand, and this is something we
> must not overlook, the game is what you make it. And if part of what you
> make it is a huge game, +6000 or so points a side, then there is a place
> for the huge vehicles and the titans, provided that you have something
> that matches those monsters.
> And they can also be fun, in the way that Titan Legions isn't, because
> you are facing something the size of an Englishman's ego. 40k is a great
> skirmish game, but with enough players it can be a big points game too,
> and that can kick butt just as much as 10 guys with 1 heavy weapon between
> them against the equivalent in greenskins.
>
> Imam Sawez im...@digex.net
> Individual Connectivity Project
> Coordinator Telecommute Solutions Group Digital Express Group,Inc.
> "I know I keep quoting the commentaries. That's actually all I've read,
> the commentaries. No actual text, just commentaries. Why do you ask?"
>
>
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
> > observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
> >
> > - GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
> > that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
> > them in tournaments.
> >
> > have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
> > believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
> > Shadowswords, etc. The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
> > from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
> > that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
> > in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
> > (Contrary to popular belief the GWUS staff really DOES care about the
> > average person, and not just monetarily).
> >
> > I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
> > need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
> > huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
> > Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
> > game. They just take the fun out of the game.
> >
> > I realize that many people like using Titans and Super Heavies but these
> > are my opinions.
> >
> > Unlike the popular slogan of the Arena people
> >
> > Resin vehicles and huge points values are NOT the way the Game was meant
> > to be played. Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and have
> > personally spoken with Jervis Johnson. He agrees with what I've said.
> > (not a boast, a fact).
> >
> > --
> > Mark A. Renye
> >
> > "I am NOT a number, I am a FREE MAN!!"
> >
> >
you said something about a 6000 pt. game? it would have to be bigger than
nthat concidering that 15600 pt. vehichals come from suport
Chad Matlick
Mark A. Renye wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
> observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
>
> - GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
> that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
> them in tournaments.
No official rules, just datafaxes that look exactly like 40K datafaxes
with the 40k logo printed on them. GW has really worked to cut down on
the confusion, haven't they :].
>
> - Resincast and Armorcast, although honorable in there business methods,
> have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
> believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
> Shadowswords, etc. The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
> from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
> that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
> in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
> (Contrary to popular belief the GWUS staff really DOES care about the
> average person, and not just monetarily).
>
> I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
> need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
> huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
> Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
> game. They just take the fun out of the game.
>
Oh right, and the basilisk really belongs in a skirmish level game!
Answer this one for me; why is an artillery piece like the basilisk ok,
but a lightly armed and armored troop carrier like the falcon grav-tank
considered unbalancing? Because GW doesn't make as much money off of
them (yet). I realize you'r mainly concerned with titans, super-heavies,
etc, but the fact is that a Tempest tank or tyranid Malefactor is no
more unbalancing than a super-cheese character. The warmaster of chaos
has no more right to be in a 2,000 point game than a heavy tank, less if
you ask me.
Resin vehicles will only be considered too large and unbalancing until
GW starts producing them. Then, suddenly, everybody will wonder how they
did without them ;>
irene Tang
In <3210BC...@inforamp.net> Derek Hollingdrake
>>
>> > Hello All,
>> >
>> > After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the
following
>> > observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
>> >
>> > - GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This
means
>> > that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed
to use
>> > them in tournaments.
>> >
these
>> > are my opinions.
>> >
>> > Unlike the popular slogan of the Arena people
>> >
>> > Resin vehicles and huge points values are NOT the way the Game was
meant
>> > to be played. Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and
have
>> > personally spoken with Jervis Johnson. He agrees with what I've
said.
>> > (not a boast, a fact).
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mark A. Renye
>> >
>> > "I am NOT a number, I am a FREE MAN!!"
>> >
>> >
>
>
than
>nthat concidering that 15600 pt. vehichals come from suport
I'm also a player of long standing, since be for the game was even
called 40k, and here are some of my comments about this subject.
1. If GW did't like the idea of titans & S/H tanks, why did they just
renew there contract with armorcast
2. Mark, what did jervis really say, because he and some of the other
studio people in the UK, are making sure that the new data faxes that
come with the resin, are along the same lines as the game, and fit in.
3. Then theres the size of the game issue, where did you come up with
6000 pts (thats 3000 a side). A baneblade or shadowsword is 500 pts,
even with only 25% support the army size would only be 2000 pts, which
is well within the normal points area of a 40k game.
4. You state there are NO offical rules for the Titans & tanks, well
yes you are right, the data faxes have not been in the white dwarf or
any of the supplements. But if you have a copy of the Citidal journal
No:7, you might want to look at the rules for both the tanks.
and in closeing, I find it very disconserting, that a member of the GW
staff, would find the need to slam the big models, in away that makes
anyone looking at his post, think that this could be an offical GW
statement.
I wonder if tim or any of the other GW staff who are on the net think
this way ?????
My best regard to all player
Gino S. Mifsud
Eric Reel
In article <crusader-130...@phl02-132-051.metrotron.com>,
crus...@metrotron.com says...
>
>Hello All,
>
> After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
>observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
>
>- GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
>that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
>them in tournaments.
>
So what?
>- Resincast and Armorcast, although honorable in there business methods,
>have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
>believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
>Shadowswords, etc. The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
>from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
>that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
>in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
>(Contrary to popular belief the GWUS staff really DOES care about the
>average person, and not just monetarily).
>
False. All Armorcast vehicles come with a datafax that fully explains how
to use 'em.
>I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
>need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
>huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
>Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
>game. They just take the fun out of the game.
>
Probably true. OTOH, they do look cool and present an unusual opponent.
>I realize that many people like using Titans and Super Heavies but these
>are my opinions.
>
>Unlike the popular slogan of the Arena people
>
>Resin vehicles and huge points values are NOT the way the Game was meant
>to be played. Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and have
>personally spoken with Jervis Johnson. He agrees with what I've said.
>(not a boast, a fact).
>
The game was meant to be played for fun. If titans & such do it for you,
then that's just the way it is. If you don't like 'em don't play with 'em.
Personally, I like using the Tyranid vehicles from Armorcast because:
a) they look cool
b) they add a new element to the tyranid army
c) I enjoy painting and displaying them.
>--
>Mark A. Renye
>
>"I am NOT a number, I am a FREE MAN!!"
Eric
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation.
David Brunswick
Well, tyranid tanks are not that expensive, and the rules for them are
like ordinary tanks. They are not unbalancing, and they fit in well with
the game. In non-tournament cases, they are great for playing with, and
add to the fun. Also, they do not cost a fortune.
--
Mike
brun...@mail.med.upenn.edu
Jerry
Mark A. Renye wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
> observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
>
> - GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
> that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
> them in tournaments.
>
Mark A. Renye
I just wanted to clear up some things about my original post.
- I am not an employee of GW (nor are any Outriders). I used to work for
the company and still maintain a close relationship with many of the
people working there.
- My main intention was to make people realize that GW can't be held
responsible for a third parties' products. But, when it interferes with a
philosophy of the company it has every right to clamp down on the
licensing issues. As far as everyone I have spoken to is concerned there
is no agreement with Armorcast. The activities of both Armorcast and
Resincast have been, in the past, mutually exclusive of GW. As soon as
problems arose concerning design and copyright infringements, and equally
important, misrepresentation as officially sanctioned supplements to 40K,
than this became an issue.
- When I referred to points values of 6000 points I meant per side. If
that is still not enough to field these things than I am even more opposed
to them.
- Of course you can do whatever you want. You can spend $80.00 on a
Shadowsword or Baneblade. Just don't coerce someone into playing against
you. It is not fair to your opponent.
- As far as GW reps are concerned there will NEVER be Citadel Resin Kits
of Titans or Super Heavy Vehicles. The smaller stuff like Falcons and
Battlewagons have a better chance.
- Just because the datafax looks like an official GW datafax doesn't mean
it is official. This confusion is at the heart of this discussion.
- At GenCon Jervis Johnson spoke with people from Armorcast. Armorcast
people were also invited to the GW dinner party. I think that Armorcast
is going to market its products more as display peices similar to the way
Comic book characters are produced as resin kits. They are also making
some pretty good scenery items.
I am sure that other issues were raised in the previous posts. I will try
to re-read them and respond later.
See ya,
whitten
Mark A. Renye wrote:
> Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and have
> personally spoken with Jervis Johnson.
>
Well, in 1886 I used my pocket time travel device to step
forward in time and pick up a version of 40K. I then returned to
1886 and have been playing 40K ever since. - Playing longer than
me? I think not!
Thomas Whitten
p.s. The above: A tale more plausable then the plot of the next STNG
movie.
OTR TimS
I have two Tempests, and I have used one on a couple of rare ocassions. I
do want to get a Titan, not to play with, but to paint because they look
so darn cool.
Whether titans and big tanks (i.e. Shadowsword, Tempest, etc) belong in
the game is really up to the people playing. The big reason is that, you
must have your opponent's approval before you can use anything resin. With
that simple rule in mind, if you don't like resin, tell your opponent. In
our games here at our store, if someone uses resin, chances are BOTH
players are going to be using resin.
Tim
HOBBY ZONE - All Hobby Items (including Games Workshop) ALWAYS 30% off!
Free Shipping On Orders Over $100 (USA ONLY)! COD Available (USA ONLY)!
HUGE Inventory! Web Page Under Cosntruction!
Visit our store!: Hobby Zone, 1426 Logan Ave, Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA,
82001
E-mail Queries To: otr...@aol.com
"Every man dies, not every man really lives."
Steven M. O'Malley
: observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
<snippage about superheavies>
Also remember, though, that Armorcast makes the only available Ork War Wagon,
which I plan on getting as soon as I save up the cash. This is in the
Ork Codex, and is by no stretch of the matter overpowering or expensive.
I also note that Armorcast includes points costs and data faxes for their
stuff. Also from people I've spoken to who bought some of the less expensive
Eldar titans, they never actually use them in battles, they just bought them
for looks and the challenge of painting something of that size and doing
it justice.
Steve O.
PS- Who cares what GW allows in sanctioned tournaments? Do you only play 40k
at tournaments and feel that you must use all the minis you own when you
do so?
Jeff
crus...@metrotron.com (Mark A. Renye) wrote:
>Resin vehicles and huge points values are NOT the way the Game was meant
>to be played. Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and have
>personally spoken with Jervis Johnson. He agrees with what I've said.
>(not a boast, a fact).
>Mark A. Renye
Don't get me wrong, but how long have you been playing? I've been
playing since the first edition of 40K was released over here. One
thing I learned early on was that the game was supposed to be kinda
fun and wild. My Chaos Warhound (Cerebus by name) certainly makes the
game fun for all involved. Redemptor (Chris's Reaver) is just as fun.
You can state all the facts you want, but one of the founding ideas
behind the game is improvisation. If I want it to be a Titan Arms
Race, so be it.
Not a Flame, Just Facts.
JEFFK
|Jeff or Verna Claw/Claw/Bite/Breath/Wing/Tail/Wedgie|
| |
|j...@iquest.net http://www.iquest.net/~jmk/index.html|
Ray
Before I address the issue of vehicles in 40K, let me make a plea to
everyone that responds to messages...PLEASE snip out the parts of the post
that you are not addressing directly. Doing this will enable a newcomer to
understand the issue to which you are responding without burdening the
system with repeated messages. Some people even quote entire replies to
messages that contain the previous message quoted!
Now, on to the subject at hand! IMHO, I don't believe that a squad level
game *needs* vehicles at all. I think that armor teamed with squads should
be tactical in nature. If you look at army organization through the ages you
will find that there are tactical level units and their *direct* support and
regimental/brigade/battalion level support. BIG guns have no place in
forward lines. Teaming ONE tank with infantry in game is reasonable...two
tanks is stretching it...three...well, you get the picture. Hoever, there
are tactical vehicles in 40K that do have a proper place. A Rhino is an M114
in disguise. Land speeders/Jet bikes are attack helicopters, etc. These DO
belong on the tactical battlefield.
Of course you can play any way that you want to...its your game! I (and I
speak for NO ONE else) prefer to remain true (or as close a possible) to the
scale of the game.
--
.------------------------------------.
| Ray Rangel |
----====| 8915 Mansfield |====----
------======| San Antonio, TX 78251, USA |======------
----====| -----==============------ |====----
| xr...@texas.net |
'------------------------------------'
Andrew Bolce'
>- Resincast and Armorcast, although honorable in there business methods,
>have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
>believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
>Shadowswords, etc.
no. you don't NEED them. you don't NEED regular tanks either. all you
NEED is a commander and enough squads to make 25%. if you want to win
though you'll probably want a different army.
The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
>from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
>that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
>in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
but if they do make those rules then they won't have that reason to
worry about anymore would they?
>I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
>need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
>huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
>Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
>game. They just take the fun out of the game.
and what about the tyranid vechiles? do you count them as super heavy?
they're made by armorcast.
>I realize that many people like using Titans and Super Heavies but these
>are my opinions.
make a better point table against them. then you'll love it when you
kill them in one shoot.
>Unlike the popular slogan of the Arena people
>
>Resin vehicles and huge points values are NOT the way the Game was meant
>to be played. Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and have
>personally spoken with Jervis Johnson. He agrees with what I've said.
>(not a boast, a fact).
>
Minion
I don't see any problems with Armorcast or Epicast vehicles and titans
if the players agree, and if you're playing a battle with armies
consisting of 5000 pts. or more, the vehicles make perfect sense,
although I wouldn't use a titan on anything less than an 8'x8' table.
~Minion
ASMODAI
Mark A. Renye (crus...@metrotron.com) wrote:
: I think that they look great, but they are just too
What better reason do you need ?
: Trust me, I have been playing longer than you
How do you know that ? I started up with 40K right about when it came out.
:, and have
: personally spoken with Jervis Johnson.
Damn, that makes you real special.
: --
: Mark A. Renye
: "I am NOT a number, I am a FREE MAN!!"
--
Bub
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~sd_fort
" I hate computers ! "
Sevrenn
In article <crusader-130...@phl02-132-052.metrotron.com>,
crus...@metrotron.com (Mark A. Renye) writes:
>- Of course you can do whatever you want. You can spend $80.00 on a
>Shadowsword or Baneblade. Just don't coerce someone into playing against
>you. It is not fair to your opponent.
YOU ! HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE 'EM. PICK UP THE DICE, SLOWLY, SLOWLY ARRIGHT
! ROLL 'EM !
I've never been coerced into playing a game or buying a product in my
life.
Gene
Duncan Watwood
ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
: : --
: : Mark A. Renye
: --
: Bub
: http://alcor.concordia.ca/~sd_fort
: " I hate computers ! "
Bub, relax.
Nubud
Brainbasha
> - My main intention was to make people realize that GW can't be held
> responsible for a third parties' products. But, when it interferes with
a
> philosophy of the company it has every right to clamp down on the
> licensing issues. As far as everyone I have spoken to is concerned
there
> is no agreement with Armorcast. The activities of both Armorcast and
> Resincast have been, in the past, mutually exclusive of GW. As soon as
> problems arose concerning design and copyright infringements, and
equally
> important, misrepresentation as officially sanctioned supplements to
40K,
> than this became an issue.
This is interesting - the bottom of my Warhound datafax says, "Datafax
produced
by Armorcast in cooperation with Games Workshop Ltd. ...... Under license
from Games
Workshop Ltd." Of course I don't hold GW responsible. I didn't pay
them. I don't
quite understand why, if Armorcast has infringed copyrights, GW isn't
doing anything
about it.
> - When I referred to points values of 6000 points I meant per side. If
> that is still not enough to field these things than I am even more
opposed
> to them.
So your criticism of these game enhancements isn't based on experience
with them?
Baneblades are 500 points (as found in the Citadel Journal, btw - also not
available
for tournaments). Real honestly I find two Leman Russes more devastating.
(Same
amount of firepower and not as big a target.) But the Baneblade makes for
nice scenarios.
I have the Shadowsword turret for that hull as well, but I only use it in
titans battles.
> - Of course you can do whatever you want. You can spend $80.00 on a
> Shadowsword or Baneblade. Just don't coerce someone into playing
against
> you. It is not fair to your opponent.
How can You judge this? You admitted you've not played with them!
> - As far as GW reps are concerned there will NEVER be Citadel Resin Kits
> of Titans or Super Heavy Vehicles. The smaller stuff like Falcons and
> Battlewagons have a better chance.
That's fine - titans are being done - rather well. Of course so are the
Falcons, Battlewagons,
and several tyranid vehicles. They give variety to the game.
> - Just because the datafax looks like an official GW datafax doesn't
mean
> it is official. This confusion is at the heart of this discussion.
We aren't talking about the Olympics here. "Official" depend on where you
are
playing. Some games clubs are allowing certain resin vehicles as they
recognize they
help make the hobby more fun. What would you have an unofficial datafax
look like? These pieces are meant to be used with the 40K game?
> - At GenCon Jervis Johnson spoke with people from Armorcast. Armorcast
> people were also invited to the GW dinner party. I think that Armorcast
> is going to market its products more as display peices similar to the
way
> Comic book characters are produced as resin kits. They are also making
> some pretty good scenery items.
Well I hope when he was speaking he said something along the lines of,
"Thanks for
helping to increase interest in the Warhammer 40K hobby." Tim produced
"The Inquisitor"
(which had MORE of those unofficial rules - for troops I might add - oh
my!). Tim and his
staff run titan demo games at conventions all over the US. This doesn't
just increase
interest in resin titans - many of those people have this as their first
taste of the
Warhammer 40K hobby.
> I am sure that other issues were raised in the previous posts. I will
try
> to re-read them and respond later.
Please try to look at this as a way to better enjoy the hobby. Yes,
titans can be
unbalancing; Wolf Guard, Warp Spider Exarchs, Abaddon, Tigurius can be
unbalancing.
But it's a thrill when you think you're ready to ride the Big Waves to get
together with
a friend, plan out a scenario, and play it out. I don't care if I win
then - the fun is in the
playing.
- Brainbasha
//-------------------------------------------
// Richard Murphy - Brain...@aol.com
// Santa Clara CA
//-------------------------------------------
Stu Pidd
: - GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
: that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
: them in tournaments.
Nor have they sanctioned many of the house rules that I, or many
others use. No big deal.
: - Resincast and Armorcast, although honorable in there business methods,
: have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
: believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
: Shadowswords, etc. The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
: from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
: that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
: in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
: (Contrary to popular belief the GWUS staff really DOES care about the
: average person, and not just monetarily).
OK, and you know that it's ________cast saying that, and not just some
kid getting over excited about some huge tank that he thinks will be
even more unstoppable than Abaddon?
: I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
: need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
: huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
: Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
: game. They just take the fun out of the game.
OK, but first: not everyone feels that way, so don't tell everyone not
to buy them. Let people make their own decisions. No one's forcing you
to buy or play with the resin stuff. Number two: there are also plenty
of resin vehicles that are of the same class as the Leman Russ, Land
Raider, etc. (The falcon, the ork battlewagon, and the tyrannid
"vehicles" all spring to mind as examples of moderately powered resin tanks).
: Resin vehicles and huge points values are NOT the way the Game was meant
: to be played. Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and have
: personally spoken with Jervis Johnson. He agrees with what I've said.
: (not a boast, a fact).
Oh, well damn. It's not the way it was meant to be played? I'd better
stop. And can you guarentee that you've been playing longer than me? I
bought the book when it first came out. In fact, I have the old WD
issues with the adverts for the "upcoming release" of 40k. I also seem
to remember the baneblade stats being in WD, along with instructions
on how to build it, as well as many others... not to mention a system
for creating your own vehicles. not to mention Dark Millenium, which
encouraged conversions as long as your opponent agrees (which was
stated to keep the cheez heads from getting out of hand).
Now, I'm not one of the people who complains about GW and their
policies and pricing, but I do think that one big factor in their
whole official/unofficial thing is that they make money off of the
official vehicles, but not off of official vehicles.
--
TOM at tdur...@Phoenix.kent.edu
web pages at http://phoenix.kent.edu/~tdurdell
"Jesus HATES you; and so DO I" -"Humiliation" card from LUNCH MONEY,
by Atlas Games
Stu Pidd
: Now, on to the subject at hand! IMHO, I don't believe that a squad level
: be tactical in nature. If you look at army organization through the ages you
: will find that there are tactical level units and their *direct* support and
: regimental/brigade/battalion level support. BIG guns have no place in
But this is a FICTIONAL game of the FUTURE, not a modern or even near
future simulation.
cdrd...@slic.com
Hmmm... your kinda askin' for it here... But I'll let you slide 'cause
your (in my opinion) a newbie...
I started "keeping" my White Dwarfs around Issue 72... That's what
1985 or 86... 40k didn't exist then... it's was just the Warhammer Boxed
set... (the one before the HardCover books) I can remember lot's of
"New" races... Skaven, Imperial Guard, Squats... So, I doubt you've been
playing longer than me... but that's not the point...
Everyone in my Group owns Resin of some type... Titans or Falcon
grav-tanks we use them all...Why, well which is more common on the 40k
battlefield, Warhound Titans or Bjorn the Fell-Handed... I see that damn
Bjorn in every Space wolf army... (Damn it Ragnar, that's 20 orks and 40
Gretchin!!! I know he's THE oldest living Dreadnought, but FOURTY
GRETCHIN!!! we'll be slaughtered without Bjorn!) That's the reason...
"In the war-torn universe of the 41 century there is only war"... Hmmm...
doesn't sound like a limited conflict to me... sounds like war...
The problem is, with this version of 40k, GW has screwed it up... it use
to be Squad on squad combat... a skirmish game, now it's just AD&D...
your big Characters against my big Characters... both with just enough
Terminators to fulfull the Squad requirement...
Sanctioned tournaments? Huh??? What's a Sanctioned GW tournament???
The only one I know is the Big Tournament in England... they don't allow
Titans, but they don't allow Characters either... And in my 11 years of
GW gaming, I still have not seen the "Tournament Rules" They're always
whatever the person running the event makes up... Beside, I'll go to
Conventions about 2-3 times a year, but I'll play 40k every Saturday...
OH, and one more thing, next time your talking with your friend Jervis,
Ask him why the Superheavies were published in the C. Journal... And find
out why he HIMSELF wrote the Datafaxes for the titans if he doesn't
approve of them...Got it right in front of me, "Jervis Johnson and Andy
Chambers"...
Mike
Ray
In response to my statement that only tactical armor really has a place in 40K
you said...
>But this is a FICTIONAL game of the FUTURE, not a modern or even near
>future simulation.
>
True. But what I said was that through the ages, tactical units use tactical
support. Battalion support (artillery etc.) is used before skirmishing takes
place (unless you are talking about WWI during which, niether side seemed to
mind shelling their own troops in the trenches).
While 40K certainly does represent combat in the far future...it still
represents combat. The rules of war don't change very often and change only in
response to completely new types of weapons like the rifle, submarine, and
airplane (to name a few). In 40K there are no *new* weapons (psykers are the
exception) so why would the way warfare is conducted change? 10 victory points
to the person who said "It wouldn't!"
So while you can do *anything* in 40k that two concenting players wish, if you
want to play with some basis in military science and common horse sense you
will play with something less than 3 drreads in a 2K army. Of course if your
opponent does the same...well...that's when you stop calling it a wargame and
start calling it a fantasy game.
Jason Grundy
In article <crusader-130...@phl02-132-051.metrotron.com>,
Mark A. Renye <crus...@metrotron.com> wrote:
>Hello All,
>
> After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
>observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
>
>that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
>them in tournaments.
Whats your point? Although playing tournament legal is nice, it isn't
necessary.
>- Resincast and Armorcast, although honorable in there business methods,
>have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
>believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
>Shadowswords, etc. The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
>from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
>that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
>in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
>(Contrary to popular belief the GWUS staff really DOES care about the
>average person, and not just monetarily).
Do you typically make stuff up like this and try to use it as an
arguement, or are you just trolling?
Your entire last paragraph is such utter bullshit, I've already wasted
too much time on it.
Oh, wait, phone is ringing...
Hey, that was Armourcast. They called to tell me that I NEED to buy their
stuff in order to play. Too bad I just spent all my money on official
citadel miniatures so I could be tourney legal!
>I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
Bully for you.
>need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
>huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
>Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
>game. They just take the fun out of the game.
Obviously this well thought out opinion takes into account all the
monster vehicles already on the field. Or the fact that my exarch, or
haywire grenade or vortex grenade or wraithguardd or farseer or avatar or
any other HtH monster view it as yet another can to pop. This one just
being worth more VP.
And of course, all the 'official' stuff in the Citadel Journel. Oh, wait,
whats this? The Citadel Journel has RULES for the Baneblade and ShadowSword,
not to mention the Thunder Hawk...
>I realize that many people like using Titans and Super Heavies but these
>are my opinions.
Congratulations. My opinion is that vehicles period shouldn't be in the
game, and neither should characters that have a good chance of taking out
2 opponents of the same size simultaneously.
But since this crap exists, the resin stuff really doesn't make any
difference.
>Unlike the popular slogan of the Arena people
>
>Resin vehicles and huge points values are NOT the way the Game was meant
>to be played. Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and have
>personally spoken with Jervis Johnson. He agrees with what I've said.
>(not a boast, a fact).
Oh, I bow to your studlyness.
Can I be like you? Please!
--
___
gru...@gaul.csd.uwo.ca
No dress rehersals, this is your life - The Hip.
whitten
Ray wrote:
>
> Of course you can play any way that you want to...its your game! I (and I
> speak for NO ONE else) prefer to remain true (or as close a possible) to the
> scale of the game.
> --
Yes, and I think that is the point. Reading this news group
for over a year and a half I am starting to get a little tired of being
*told* how I should play, what my table top force should look like, etc.
There should be more sharing of ideas and giving of assistance in this
group. I also like reading the battle reports. The rest that appears
here I could care less about.
Thomas Whitten
Corey Goettsche
Well, I do agree with you about things like super-heavy tanks and titans.
They really just don't work in 40k. However, there are resin vehicles of
standard tanks that appear in epic, but not in 40K. For example, I own a
resin 40K Ork Gobsmasha. This really helps out my orks by having a tank of
their own without having to use stolen Imperial tanks. Anyway, some of
the resin stuff is excessive, but so are the costs for them (both in terms
of points and money). Personally, I think most of the resin vehicles (and
scenery) add a lot to the game. Kind of interesting going up a Tyranid
Swarm with Exocrines and other "monsters".
Anyway, my 2 standard imperial credits.
Corey W. Goettsche, who just knows someday he'll go up against someone
with a 40K Imperator.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around."
Ray
In article <3211DB...@mtu.edu>, whi...@mtu.edu says...
>
>Ray wrote:
>
>>
>> Of course you can play any way that you want to...its your game! I (and I
>> speak for NO ONE else) prefer to remain true (or as close a possible) to
the
>> scale of the game.
>> --
>
> Yes, and I think that is the point. Reading this news group
>for over a year and a half I am starting to get a little tired of being
>*told* how I should play,
>Thomas Whitten
I like reading about the way other people view the game. But like T.W. above
get pretty darned tired of people telling me I can't play Lehman Russ...
What on Earth possess these people. If I can get my opponent to agree, I will
field a Bart Simpson Happy Meal Doll! (Who, by the way, can shoot while hidden
without being exposed by rolling a 4-6 on 1D6...sometimes known as the "Not me
Man!" roll.)
Tirion
My only complaint is that even the Resin vehicles are on the small
side. Take 10 Eldar Guardians and stand them together. Now see if you
can conceive of them in the Falcon Grav Tank model. Sure if you want to
stuff them in like sardines, but the idea of an IFV (Infantry Fighting
Vehicle) is to transport the troops faster than they can walk in some
condition to fight, not crammed into a box with a shoe horn.
The same goes for the Wave Serpent and the Tempest. They really need
to be about 25% or so larger.
Mark A. Renye
> Hmmm... your kinda askin' for it here... But I'll let you slide 'cause
> your (in my opinion) a newbie...
Maybe I AM asking for it, but I am NOT a newbie (its almost laughable)
> I started "keeping" my White Dwarfs around Issue 72... That's what
> 1985 or 86... 40k didn't exist then... it's was just the Warhammer Boxed
> set... (the one before the HardCover books) I can remember lot's of
> "New" races... Skaven, Imperial Guard, Squats... So, I doubt you've been
> playing longer than me... but that's not the point...
Well, thats debatable, but your right, its not the point. I could name
drop a bunch of old old citadel stuff that I mail ordered from england in
the 80's but whats the point?
> Everyone in my Group owns Resin of some type... Titans or Falcon
> grav-tanks we use them all...Why, well which is more common on the 40k
> battlefield, Warhound Titans or Bjorn the Fell-Handed... I see that damn
> Bjorn in every Space wolf army... (Damn it Ragnar, that's 20 orks and 40
> Gretchin!!! I know he's THE oldest living Dreadnought, but FOURTY
> GRETCHIN!!! we'll be slaughtered without Bjorn!) That's the reason...
> "In the war-torn universe of the 41 century there is only war"... Hmmm...
> doesn't sound like a limited conflict to me... sounds like war...
Very true. The stuff that really doesn't belong are the Titans (IMO).
The Falcons and Battlewagons and the like are on the same scale as what is
currently sold by GW. The fact that resin is the material that the stuff
is made out of doesn't bother me. Its WHAT is being made (titans,
superheavies).
> The problem is, with this version of 40k, GW has screwed it up... it use
> to be Squad on squad combat... a skirmish game, now it's just AD&D...
> your big Characters against my big Characters... both with just enough
> Terminators to fulfull the Squad requirement...
You are right. The game has become very different from what it used to
be. That is mainly due to the increased cost of figures. It is far
easier to field a 400 point character than a 400 point squad (Marines).
Being an old veteran player I appreciate the INTENTION of the game. That
is, it was made to be squad level, and now it is becoming a character
game. My friends and I still play with many troops and only a couple
characters (less than 25%). I personally enjoy the game much more this
way. The mechanics work better at this level. The game is more fun
(IMHO).
> Sanctioned tournaments? Huh??? What's a Sanctioned GW tournament???
> The only one I know is the Big Tournament in England... they don't allow
> Titans, but they don't allow Characters either... And in my 11 years of
> GW gaming, I still have not seen the "Tournament Rules" They're always
> whatever the person running the event makes up... Beside, I'll go to
> Conventions about 2-3 times a year, but I'll play 40k every Saturday...
I never used conventions as an example. When I speak of official, I mean
something that doesn't require your opponents consent to use.
> OH, and one more thing, next time your talking with your friend Jervis,
> Ask him why the Superheavies were published in the C. Journal... And find
> out why he HIMSELF wrote the Datafaxes for the titans if he doesn't
> approve of them...Got it right in front of me, "Jervis Johnson and Andy
> Chambers"...
Because the Citadel Journal is a supplement. Think of it as a fanzine.
The stuff in there is not official (as per the above definition). Only
White Dwarf published rules are 'official'. If a suitable number of
people request info about something it is going to get the attention of JJ
or AC. Since resin vehicles have become popular JJ took the time to hack
out some quick rules to satisfy the readers of the Journal.
Tina Mcmullen
>>>>> In article <crusader-130...@phl02-132-051.metrotron.com>, crus...@metrotron.com (Mark A. Renye) writes:
In article <crusader-130...@phl02-132-051.metrotron.com> crus...@metrotron.com (Mark A. Renye) writes:
> Hello All,
> After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
> observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
> - GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
> that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
> them in tournaments.
> - Resincast and Armorcast, although honorable in there business methods,
> have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
> believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
> Shadowswords, etc. The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
> from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
> that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
> in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
> (Contrary to popular belief the GWUS staff really DOES care about the
> average person, and not just monetarily).
> I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
> need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
> huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
> Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
> game. They just take the fun out of the game.
Yeah, the ork battlewagon is _SUCH_ a huge, unbalancing waste of 50
pts!!!
HELLOOO??
It's not _my_ fault that GW doesn't make these anymore. Or that the
Eldar Wave Serpent, which is shown in almost _every_ major picture of
an Eldar battle, including the front for fucking Codex, is, as far as
I know, onlly available in resin.
Sheesh.
-Robin
Jason Grundy
I keep looking at the Rhino with 5 termis beside it, and I just have to
shake my head.
Jason Grundy
In article <4uu9jh$b...@news2.texas.net>, Ray <xr...@texas.net> wrote:
>What on Earth possess these people. If I can get my opponent to agree, I will
>field a Bart Simpson Happy Meal Doll! (Who, by the way, can shoot while hidden
>without being exposed by rolling a 4-6 on 1D6...sometimes known as the "Not me
>Man!" roll.)
Doesn't he cause fear in all smaller models, and gets a demonic save? Can
only truely be killed by an eraser? Yeah, he's mean, but 402 pts is too much.
whitten
Ray wrote:
> What on Earth possess these people. If I can get my opponent to agree, I will
> field a Bart Simpson Happy Meal Doll! (Who, by the way, can shoot while hidden
> without being exposed by rolling a 4-6 on 1D6...sometimes known as the "Not me
> Man!" roll.)
> --
I've been wanting to field Bart for awhile now, do you have the
stats? :)
T.W.
Stu Pidd
: So while you can do *anything* in 40k that two concenting players wish, if you
: will play with something less than 3 drreads in a 2K army. Of course if your
: opponent does the same...well...that's when you stop calling it a wargame and
: start calling it a fantasy game.
And there you go, that's exactly what it is.
I hope you're not taking this as a flame, or even an argument (sort
of). I just got some email from someone asking how I could manage to
play my 2000 point chaos army, which is all squads except for the
general and a dread. So I agree with you on the style of play. It's
also what I enjoy best.
However, some people don't, and I think that along with the shift in
target group (from older wargamers, to younger kids) the emphasis of
the game has also shifted from a wargame to a fantasy game of big
guns, bigger tanks, and even bigger "superheroes". In the other
thread, regarding resin tanks, the author said that he knew that the
origional concept of the game was for small skirmishes between troops,
etc etc etc... But the thing is, it's not tha same game anymore.
Still though, you (and I for that matter) can continue to play the
game as we enjoy it, but I usually plan on seeing hero & tank armies
when I play new opponents, because that's what's drawing people in.
ASMODAI
: > Hmmm... your kinda askin' for it here... But I'll let you slide 'cause
: > your (in my opinion) a newbie...
: Maybe I AM asking for it, but I am NOT a newbie (its almost laughable)
Damn, you want a prize or something ?
: Very true. The stuff that really doesn't belong are the Titans (IMO).
I see nothing wrong with playing a scenario where Imperial Guard storm
troopers have to sabotage an Eldar Phantom titan, or something similar.
If there's rules for them, why not use 'em ?
It seems to me as though you just play straight and hack, mission card
strategy card games of 40K. Tempests can be used in scenarios, how about
a commando raid where the objective is to destroy two or three tempests ?
: Its WHAT is being made (titans,
: superheavies).
I don't own any of these, but some of my friends do, and while I don't
realy think they belong in "competition" games, their use in friendly
games is acceptable.
The models also look nice, so why complain about their being produced ?
: Because the Citadel Journal is a supplement. Think of it as a fanzine.
: The stuff in there is not official (as per the above definition). Only
: White Dwarf published rules are 'official'. If a suitable number of
: people request info about something it is going to get the attention of JJ
: or AC. Since resin vehicles have become popular JJ took the time to hack
: out some quick rules to satisfy the readers of the Journal.
Of course, you must be right, after all, you spoke to him right ?
: --
: Mark A. Renye
: "I am NOT a number, I am a FREE MAN!!"
--
Tim Dupertuis
Hi Guys,
Just though I'd jump in here a bit (been real busy).
Mark is right in that CJ stuff is all optional-not official.
Titans, super heavies and all of the other Armorcast models (except battlewagon)
are are OPTIONAL vehicles-only usable with your opponent's consent. If you look
at it this way, you don't have to play against them if you don't want to. We are
not trying to force these things down people's throats.
The models are available because a couple of crazy 40k players wanted some for
themselves and then were allowed by GW to make them available to other crazy
players as well.
> Ask him why the Superheavies were published in the C. Journal... And find
> out why he HIMSELF wrote the Datafaxes for the titans if he doesn't
> approve of them...Got it right in front of me, "Jervis Johnson and Andy
> Chambers"...
Just because their names are on the Forge World Warhound datafax doesn't mean
that they had anything to do with writing the datafax. The copy of it I got
directly from Andy and Jervis had their names crossed off. We are now working on
new datafaxes for all of the Titans (although it will be a while before we get
the Gargant done) and I spent 5 hours working on them with Jervis at Gencon.
Other Stuff
The Chaos Cannon of Khorne and Cauldron of Blood will be released in 3-4 weeks.
Wheeeeeee....
Tim
BTW the new Armorcast e-mail address is: ti...@armorcast.com
--
Tim DuPertuis ARMORCAST and INQUISITOR
PO BOX 14485 SANTA ROSA, CA 95402-6485
(707) 576-1619 Voice/Fax http://www.nashville.com/~armorcast/armor.html
OTR TimS
In article <4v11sa$q...@newsflash.concordia.ca>, sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca
(ASMODAI) writes:
>I see nothing wrong with playing a scenario where Imperial Guard storm
>troopers have to sabotage an Eldar Phantom titan, or something similar.
>If there's rules for them, why not use 'em ?
Also, Armorcast has announced that they will soon have TWO Datafaxes for
all their titans... one with the normal rules on it, another that severely
weakens their armament to make them more playable in smaller games....
Tim
"Every Man Dies, Not Every Man Really Lives" - William Wallace
"It's not whether you win or lose, it's how much blood you draw!" - Kharn
the Betrayer
Visit our store!: Hobby Zone, 1426 Logan Ave, Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA,
82001
Ray
In article <4v0mkq$b...@tombstone.kent.edu>, tdur...@kent.kent.edu says...
>However, some people don't, and I think that along with the shift in
>target group (from older wargamers, to younger kids) the emphasis of
>the game has also shifted from a wargame to a fantasy game of big
>guns, bigger tanks, and even bigger "superheroes". In the other
>thread, regarding resin tanks, the author said that he knew that the
>origional concept of the game was for small skirmishes between troops,
>etc etc etc... But the thing is, it's not tha same game anymore.
>
>Still though, you (and I for that matter) can continue to play the
>game as we enjoy it, but I usually plan on seeing hero & tank armies
>when I play new opponents, because that's what's drawing people in.
>
Alas, so true (almost). I agree with you except that most of the people I know
aren't kids and they lean on their vehicles, named characters, and dreads. I
like the puzzle, the challenge of figuring out how to handle a difficult
tactical situation.
I am new to 40k, but an old hand at wargaming. One of the things that I am
having the hardest time with is named characters and how powerful they are. In
a "normal" game, I can flank, use pincers, set up interlocking fields of fire,
etc. In 40k I have to set all that I have learned aside and think about dread
simply walking through fire zones. I have to consider a named character hosing
an entire squad as it attempts a flanking maneuver. I am *NOT* complaining. It
is a new and interesting game...but it tosses the manual of small unit tactics
right out the window.
Avatar
Ray (xr...@texas.net) wrote:
:
: While 40K certainly does represent combat in the far future...it still
: response to completely new types of weapons like the rifle, submarine, and
: airplane (to name a few). In 40K there are no *new* weapons (psykers are the
: exception) so why would the way warfare is conducted change?
Hmmmm...I don't know where you live, but I don't have any knowledge of
plasma weapons, have not seen a functional man portable laser weapon, and
have not seen anything even close to a multi-melta in the real world...How
about power fists?? Anyone?? There are plenty of new weapons in the
game, why can't weapons change?? Forces must be self supported and
capable of dealing with alien threats and environments (nice drastic
changes I do beleive...). Psykers are a bizarre addition to te
battlefield for sure, though........In the tens od thousands of years that
have supposedly occurred between now and 40k, whose to say that combatw
ill not drastically alter. You are only looking at a few thousand years
of development in the studies of warfare, so it is rather difficult to
properly extrapolate the state of warfare 38 thousand years from now.....
Avatar
Avatar
Ray (xr...@texas.net) wrote:
:
: game *needs* vehicles at all. I think that armor teamed with squads should
: be tactical in nature. If you look at army organization through the ages you
: will find that there are tactical level units and their *direct* support and
: regimental/brigade/battalion level support. BIG guns have no place in
: tanks is stretching it...three...well, you get the picture. Hoever, there
: are tactical vehicles in 40K that do have a proper place. A Rhino is an M114
: in disguise. Land speeders/Jet bikes are attack helicopters, etc. These DO
: belong on the tactical battlefield.
:
The German army, in the second world war, made great innovations in
combining the use of armor with infantry maneuvers. Actually, you have it
backwards. The tanks and vehicles SHOULD be on the front lines and the
infantry follows up behind them to clean up the mess. If you wanted to
field a mechanized infantry force in 40k, you could easily add a rhino for
each squad (with perhaps a land raider for a termie squad or the leaders).
in fact, it could be feasible to have each squad in a landraider
(expensive, but possible....). I do not equate Landspeeders with attack
helicopters, but view them more as scouting vehicles, that could very
logically come to grips with the enemy before your foot troops do.
Its interesting how everyone feels that 40k MUST be a squad level game and
must hold to all the standard rules for army contruction today. The fact
is that 40k is what it is, nothing more and nothing less. 40K is fun to
play when you can add a small tank to support your force in combat (light
tanks do support infantry quite well). All of the parts combine to make a
decent whole that is fun to play, who cares if the armies don't
match any official military conventions??
Of course, you are also free to play as you choose....;)
Avatar
Avatar
whitten (whi...@mtu.edu) wrote:
:
: Yes, and I think that is the point. Reading this news group
: for over a year and a half I am starting to get a little tired of being
: There should be more sharing of ideas and giving of assistance in this
: group. I also like reading the battle reports. The rest that appears
: here I could care less about.
If you cut out the posts about people complaining because their opponents
want to do more than play with only guardians or tactical squads there
won't be anything left to read!!!!! :)
Its funny, if people would pay more attention when building their OWN
armies and stop telling others how to build armies so that their army can
easily win without effort, things owuld be a lot nicer......Figuring out
what your army is capable of and knowing what to expect from an enemy are
the two main ways to win at this game.....You'd think by now everyone and
their brother could squash any warp spider exarchs they face or
wraithguard or anything, because with the amount people complain about
them, they should also be investigating the best ways to take 'em out!!
Avatar
Ray
In article <4v2qc8$h...@netaxs.com>, ava...@netaxs.com says...
>
>Ray (xr...@texas.net) wrote:
>:
>: While 40K certainly does represent combat in the far future...it still
>: represents combat. The rules of war don't change very often and change only
in
>
>: response to completely new types of weapons like the rifle, submarine, and
>: airplane (to name a few). In 40K there are no *new* weapons (psykers are
the
>: exception) so why would the way warfare is conducted change?
>
>Hmmmm...I don't know where you live, but I don't have any knowledge of
>plasma weapons, have not seen a functional man portable laser weapon, and
>have not seen anything even close to a multi-melta in the real world...How
>about power fists?? Anyone?? There are plenty of new weapons in the
>game, why can't weapons change??
Well, the NAMES change, but a projectile weapon is still a projectile weapon.
The names change, the descriptions of what they do change, but the effects on
the game and the tactical situation don't. What you have are a bunch of guys
running around with muskets (single shot projectile) and repeating rifles
(storm bolters) and shotguns/blunderbusses (short range, high energy weapons).
The NORMAL weapons in 40K are not unique to 40K except in name.
Before I get flamed...I am NOT complaining, just making an observation that
the weapons in 40K shouldn't have a big impact on the way small unit tactics
are used. This is because (once again there are a few exceptions) the weapons
in 40K have 20th century correlaries.
whitten
Stu Pidd wrote:
>
> : So while you can do *anything* in 40k that two concenting players wish, if you
> : want to play with some basis in military science and common horse sense you
> : will play with something less than 3 drreads in a 2K army. Of course if your
> : opponent does the same...well...that's when you stop calling it a wargame and
> : start calling it a fantasy game.
>
> And there you go, that's exactly what it is.
>
> I hope you're not taking this as a flame, or even an argument (sort
> of). I just got some email from someone asking how I could manage to
> play my 2000 point chaos army, which is all squads except for the
> general and a dread. So I agree with you on the style of play. It's
> also what I enjoy best.
>
> target group (from older wargamers, to younger kids) the emphasis of
> the game has also shifted from a wargame to a fantasy game of big
> guns, bigger tanks, and even bigger "superheroes". In the other
> thread, regarding resin tanks, the author said that he knew that the
> origional concept of the game was for small skirmishes between troops,
> etc etc etc... But the thing is, it's not tha same game anymore.
>
If well balanced, vechicles make perfect sense in a 40k battle
if two things are considered. First, if the battle being fought on the
table top is considered to be a small portion of the over battle. And
two, the battle group with the vechicles is in a army that uses the
strategy of combined arms as part of their military doctrine.
As I understand the theory behind combined arms, far from being
an expert, ground troops are carried with the armored column. So when
and if the force actually comes in direct contact with the enemy, not
counting the standard exchange of fire that can occur at distances
greater than one mile, the ground troops can be dispursed to protect
the armor from its biggest threat - enemy infinatry. (Actually,
described is only part of the combined arms strategy. The most relevant
to this discussion.)
Thomas Whitten
Tom Payne
In article <crusader-130...@phl02-132-051.metrotron.com>
crus...@metrotron.com "Mark A. Renye" writes:
> Hello All,
>
> After speaking with many of the people at GWUS I offer the following
> observations about Resin vehicles in 40K.
>
Thanks. No, really. I mean it. I really wanna read about someone who thinks
that if he doesn't like tanks, then they don't exist.
> - GW has NEVER sanctioned the use of Resin vehicles in 40K. This means
> that there are NO official rules for them and you won't be allowed to use
> them in tournaments.
>
So? They're Chapter Approved datafaxes, aren't they?
> - Resincast and Armorcast, although honorable in there business methods,
> have unwittingly misled many people, specifically younger players into
> believing that if they collect 40K armies than they NEED Titans and
> Shadowswords, etc. The GWUS customer service trolls get lots of calls
Erm, do you wanna share with us HOW exactly you found this out?
> from kids asking about the rules for these vehicles. When the kid learns
> that there ARE none an upset parent calls trying to find out why. It is
What?! What kind of a sheltered existance do these kids lead?
> in GW's best interest not to sanction these for just this reason alone.
> (Contrary to popular belief the GWUS staff really DOES care about the
> average person, and not just monetarily).
>
<frown>
Why? I hate it when people insist that GW give a damn about their customer's
happiness. As long as a person goes on buying, they couldn't give a leaping
funt. GW is a company. It's sole purpose is to make money.
> I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
> need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
> huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
> Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
> game. They just take the fun out of the game.
>
Okay, so you think a 500 point tank is unbalancing and unrealistic.
What about special characters and overly powerful non special characters? The
presence of these in great enough QTY reduces the game to a fight between
characters, not squads.
> I realize that many people like using Titans and Super Heavies but these
> are my opinions.
>
> Unlike the popular slogan of the Arena people
>
Who are they?
> Resin vehicles and huge points values are NOT the way the Game was meant
> to be played. Trust me, I have been playing longer than you, and have
Really? And pray tell, how do you know? Did you get a pre-release of RT when it
was first published?
Although *I* have only been playing since the release of the 1st edition SH,
that's still quite a long time. And there are others who have spent *years*
playing this damned game, so if you'd care to step off your soap box please do
so.
In fact, come to think of it I might have been on RGMW longer than you. So
there. *pbbt*
> personally spoken with Jervis Johnson. He agrees with what I've said.
> (not a boast, a fact).
>
"not a boast, a fact"? Really?
Wowee. I've never heard of anyone talking to JJ. Oh, except Isaac, Allen, most
of the people at the 40k tourney, the outriders (and there are a LOT of them),
Mr Flibble and even I had a brief conversation with him about the chaos codex
in email.
So what makes you think that talking to JJ gives you any weight to swing? If
everyone thought that, then we wouldn't be able to see the game for the
boasting.
And JJ seems to agree with most people's statements <G>. He does seem to change
his mind quite often. Besides, if GW thought that resin was a bad idea, they
wouldn't be getting AC to do all their market research, now would they?
> --
> Mark A. Renye
>
> "I am NOT a number, I am a FREE MAN!!"
>
--
Tom Payne
"That mad game the world so loves to play." -- J Smith
Ray
In article <4v2pln$h...@netaxs.com>, ava...@netaxs.com says...
>
>Ray (xr...@texas.net) wrote:
>The German army, in the second world war, made great innovations in
>combining the use of armor with infantry maneuvers. Actually, you have it
>backwards. The tanks and vehicles SHOULD be on the front lines and the
>infantry follows up behind them to clean up the mess. If you wanted to
>field a mechanized infantry force in 40k, you could easily add a rhino for
>each squad (with perhaps a land raider for a termie squad or the leaders).
>in fact, it could be feasible to have each squad in a landraider
>(expensive, but possible....). I do not equate Landspeeders with attack
>helicopters, but view them more as scouting vehicles, that could very
>logically come to grips with the enemy before your foot troops do.
>
What you say is true...except...there ALWAYS a lot more ground pounders than
there are tanks. While the German army pioneered using armor as assault/shock
troops, they soon found that you can't win battles against an equivalent
opponent. That tactic worked well in Poland where the Pkv IVs faced Polish
*lancers* on horseback, but it wouldn't work against a modern force. That's
why they couldn't take Bastone.
>Its interesting how everyone feels that 40k MUST be a squad level game and
>must hold to all the standard rules for army contruction today. The fact
>is that 40k is what it is, nothing more and nothing less. 40K is fun to
>play when you can add a small tank to support your force in combat (light
>tanks do support infantry quite well). All of the parts combine to make a
>decent whole that is fun to play, who cares if the armies don't
>match any official military conventions??
>
IMHO, the rules are written around squads and special characters (many of whom
*must* lead a squad). It is pretty obvious (to me) that 40K is a squad level
game.
>Of course, you are also free to play as you choose....;)
Naturally, the point is to have fun. I bring these ideas forward because I
gain a lot of insight and ideas from other people's views of the game. I just
want to share...far be it from me to *demand* that anyone play my way or *nay*
way.
>
>Avatar
Melisa Nicoud
Hello,
Dale A Holland
In article <4v2qc8$h...@netaxs.com>, Avatar <ava...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>Hmmmm...I don't know where you live, but I don't have any knowledge of
>plasma weapons, have not seen a functional man portable laser weapon, and
>have not seen anything even close to a multi-melta in the real world...How
>
>Avatar
Heh. We in the US are actually pretty close to a man portable laser weapon.
We have the lasers that are powerful enough, the problems are power consumtion
and 'jitter' (basically targeting errors keeping the laser from getting things
hot enough to cook) I actually have seen a 'meltagun'. One of my friends had a
mouse problem at his house. He took apart a microwave attached a parabolic dish
to the emitter and used car batteries and a big capacitor to power it. Those
were not happy rodents.
Me
Hey Folks,
I think what Mark Rayne meant to say, . . was that the resin vehicles are
not GW product, so don't ask them rules questions, etc. about them. It
doesn't mean GW employees do not like them, heck I know many of the GWUS
folks have them. Just don't bug them about it, they didn't make it.
I love the models, Biasi does a darn good sculpting job, and Tim and his gang
do a great job molding the stuff. If I had the money, I'd get the whole line.
Currently I have only the Tyranid stuff, a battlewagon, etc. I plan on using
my 20 or so vehicles and some friend's titans in a 25mm game of EPIC (5 25mm
figs to a 2-3 inch base). I still need to get that company of marines done. .
Dustin Burger
GW Outrider
Play games. Don't argue. Have fun
ASMODAI
Me (m...@work.not) wrote:
: Hey Folks,
: I think what Mark Rayne meant to say, . . was that the resin vehicles are
: not GW product, so don't ask them rules questions, etc. about them. It
: doesn't mean GW employees do not like them, heck I know many of the GWUS
: folks have them. Just don't bug them about it, they didn't make it.
Actually when I look at the thread subject header, I see " 40k : Don't
play with resin ". Which is pretty much telling me what to do.
: Dustin Burger
: GW Outrider
: Play games. Don't argue. Have fun
--
Harry Pottash
In article <4v31up$n...@news2.texas.net>, xr...@texas.net (Ray) wrote:
> In article <4v2qc8$h...@netaxs.com>, ava...@netaxs.com says...
> >
> >Ray (xr...@texas.net) wrote:
> >:
> >: While 40K certainly does represent combat in the far future...it still
> >: represents combat. The rules of war don't change very often and
change only
> in
> >
> >: response to completely new types of weapons like the rifle, submarine, and
> >: airplane (to name a few). In 40K there are no *new* weapons (psykers are
> the
> >: exception) so why would the way warfare is conducted change?
> >
> >Hmmmm...I don't know where you live, but I don't have any knowledge of
> >plasma weapons, have not seen a functional man portable laser weapon, and
> >have not seen anything even close to a multi-melta in the real world...How
> >about power fists?? Anyone?? There are plenty of new weapons in the
> >game, why can't weapons change??
>
> Well, the NAMES change, but a projectile weapon is still a projectile weapon.
> The names change, the descriptions of what they do change, but the effects on
> the game and the tactical situation don't. What you have are a bunch of guys
> running around with muskets (single shot projectile) and repeating rifles
> (storm bolters) and shotguns/blunderbusses (short range, high energy weapons).
> The NORMAL weapons in 40K are not unique to 40K except in name.
>
> Before I get flamed...I am NOT complaining, just making an observation that
> the weapons in 40K shouldn't have a big impact on the way small unit tactics
> are used. This is because (once again there are a few exceptions) the weapons
> in 40K have 20th century correlaries.
sorry to mention this but the weapons are very diffrent, though not
nessisaraly better, simply the fact that they are diffrent makes room for
there to be a change in tactics (if a inch were 10 ft. then a modern rifle
could shoot a LOT farther than a laz-cannon).
all the practical ranges for the wepons are tiny, and there are other
factors, like powerfists wich have no modern equivilent that I know of, or
the very low number of sustaind fire wepons (in the modern military
everyone seems to have a machinegun)
realy the wepondry is very diffrent.
--
"wrongs wrong, even if it helps ya"
-popeye the sailor
Sergio Monge
While we are on the topic of basic tactics, would any of you consider the
teleporter a major issue as far as planning strategy.
This Saturday, I am fielding a three thousand point force with two squads
of teleporting terminators led by a Terminator captain with the warp jump
wargear card and supported by an assault squad, tactical squad, and scout
squad. There is an inquisitor, a captain w/jump pack, a chaplain w/jump pack
and a techmarine in the army. There is also a rhino and a tarantula involved.
The major strategy is to teleport into the backfield using the captains
teleport homer to bring them in on target, and open up with the heavy
flamer and assault cannon as the assault squad slams into the most vulnerable
area of the army and the tactical squad holds and the scouts act as a sqeed
bump. There are no vortex grenades, or superheavy tanks. There is no
use of combat drugs. Unless you count frenzon. What i do have is a butt
load of veterean sargeants armed with auxiliary grenade launchers and
auto launchers on the terminator characters. There is a rad grenade, and
a stasis grenade.
My opponent doesn't know what I am fielding, and I have no idea what he is
fielding. This should be fun.
Does anyone have any comments, I am curous if anyone would cry chedder.
-surge
Trevor Stamper
Actually, GW does get a percentage from Armorcast and others, it si in their
genreal contract. Why would you licsence a product and not get money?
C'mon, this iws GW, the $2 a plastic bulk mini company.
Tim Dupertuis
Hi all,
This isn't quite correct. There will be two independent systems for using
Titans:
1) The final version of the original Inquisitor rule system that attempts to
represent the true power (based on the background) of Titans on the
battlefield. We try NOT to call the playsheets for these rules "Datafaxes" to
limit the confusion between the two systems. These rules are currently shipping
in the model boxes. When we get the second edition datafaxes done, they will
ship in the boxes in place of the Inquisitor rules, which will be available in
Inquisitor #14.
2) Upcoming second edition datafaxes in which power is sacrificed for
playability and the rules are much more integrated into the 40K system.
I spent 5 hours with Jervis at GenCon working on the datafax versions of the
Titans. This is where the "Datafax produced in cooperation with Games Workshop"
comes from. We are working much closer now with the Design Studio in the
development of Armorcast datafaxes
Later, Tim
Thomas Andersson
>getting things hot enough to cook) I actually have seen a 'meltagun'. One of
>my friends had a mouse problem at his house. He took apart a microwave
>attached a parabolic dish to the emitter and used car batteries and a big
>capacitor to power it. Those were not happy rodents.
Micropowered skaven frier! :)
--
+--------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
| Thomas Andersson, AKA <steiner> | ______ |
+--------------------------------------------------------+ |\ |
| | |_\ |
+--------------------------------------------------------+ | \ |
| ste...@kd.qd.se http://www.kd.qd.se/~steiner | |
+--------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
Decades BBS 33k6 24h 2:203/625.0 +46-54/831561
Ed Chauvin
In article <4v43gc$9...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
eni...@fairway.ecn.purdue.edu (Dale A Holland) wrote:
>In article <4v2qc8$h...@netaxs.com>, Avatar <ava...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>>Hmmmm...I don't know where you live, but I don't have any knowledge of
>>plasma weapons, have not seen a functional man portable laser weapon, and
>>have not seen anything even close to a multi-melta in the real world...How
>>
>>Avatar
>Heh. We in the US are actually pretty close to a man portable laser weapon.
>We have the lasers that are powerful enough, the problems are power
consumtion
>hot enough to cook) I actually have seen a 'meltagun'. One of my friends had
a
>mouse problem at his house. He took apart a microwave attached a parabolic
dish
>to the emitter and used car batteries and a big capacitor to power it. Those
>were not happy rodents.
>
>
Mark A. Renye
In article <4v3ftf$7...@flagstaff.net66.com>, m...@work.not (Me) wrote:
> Hey Folks,
>
> I think what Mark Rayne meant to say, . . was that the resin vehicles are
> not GW product, so don't ask them rules questions, etc. about them. It
> doesn't mean GW employees do not like them, heck I know many of the GWUS
> folks have them. Just don't bug them about it, they didn't make it.
>
> I love the models, Biasi does a darn good sculpting job, and Tim and his gang
> do a great job molding the stuff. If I had the money, I'd get the whole line.
> Currently I have only the Tyranid stuff, a battlewagon, etc. I plan on using
> my 20 or so vehicles and some friend's titans in a 25mm game of EPIC (5 25mm
> figs to a 2-3 inch base). I still need to get that company of marines done. .
>
>
>
> Dustin Burger
> GW Outrider
>
> Play games. Don't argue. Have fun
Hello All,
Apparently my postings regarding Resin has caused a lot of discord.
I appreciate Dustin (above) clarifying my main points. I really LIKE the
models but there are reasons that have been explained before that make
them controversial. I do not presume to speak for anyone except myself.
My opinions on their use are just that, opinions. The confusion that some
people have concerning their "official" nature were spoken directly to me
by GWUS staff members (I am friends with many in the Baltimore offices, I
used to be an employee).
Concerning my original comments on the legal issues, I have spoken
out of turn. I have learned that they ARE in fact officially licensed
from GW. If this has caused any confusion, or concern on anyone's part
than I appologize. The word that I heard was that the license was
revoked, apparently this is NOT the case. Armorcast IS abiding by ALL
licensing agreements and always has.
Thanks for reading,
Demetrios S Papadopoulos
Mark A. Renye wrote:
> <SNIP>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Apparently my postings regarding Resin has caused a lot of discord.
> I appreciate Dustin (above) clarifying my main points. I really LIKE the
> models but there are reasons that have been explained before that make
> them controversial. I do not presume to speak for anyone except myself.
> My opinions on their use are just that, opinions.
<SNIP>
> Thanks for reading,
>
> --
> Mark A. Renye
>
> "I am NOT a number, I am a FREE MAN!!"
The subject header indicates a command rather than opinion, as stated by
another poster.
--
demetrios
"You learn by dying."
athesdan
ive got the eldar falcon antigrav tank, and i think it is a very
balanced resin model. its a light, troop carring tank with a lascannon
and shuriken catapult for 150pts. since its not an official gw product i
always ask my opponents beforehand if i can use it, and after reviewing
the datafax they say yes. if they say no, i always have a alternate army
list to pull from.
--
athesdan:@
"...one man's mundane and desperate existence is another man's
Technicolor."
http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~bkraso1/athesdan.html
now serving 100s of netsurfers
col._nathan_cross
>> I have personal opinions about them as well. Primarily I do not see the
>> need for them in 40K. I think that they look great, but they are just too
>> huge for 40K. A squad level game should not have super-heavy vehicles.
>> Six heavy bolters, two battlecannons, etc. unbalance the HELL out of the
>> game. They just take the fun out of the game.
>>
>> --
>> Mark A. Renye
>>
>> "I am NOT a number, I am a FREE MAN!!"
>>
Six Heavy Bolters??? Since *when* does a Baneblade have all of that?
Read the Datafax again...there is 1 (ONE) heavy bolter, on the front
of the tank, and 7 (SEVEN) *bolters* (3 linked on each side, and one
in front)
As for being "unbalaced", The same 500 pointswill get you a pair of
well-equipped Leman Russ MBTs..I'd rather face the solo Baneblede.
As for the rest of the anti-resin barrage, as soon as you're finished
name dropping, (and frankly, I don't care *Who* you've spoken to..),
take a moment to look at the Baneblade datafax....look
carefully...Note the words "Chapter Approved" ?? Also look at who
wrote teh datafax....
I think that, mayhap, you should spend more time working on anti-tank
tactics, and you'll find the Baneblade much more palatable...
Praise the Emperor
Colonel Nathan Cross
Cadian XXIX Mechanized Infantry.
Stu Pidd
: ship in the boxes in place of the Inquisitor rules, which will be available in
: Inquisitor #14.
When will Inquisitor #14 be around????
--
TOM at tdur...@Phoenix.kent.edu
web pages at http://phoenix.kent.edu/~tdurdell
"Jesus HATES you; and so DO I" -"Humiliation" card from LUNCH MONEY,
by Atlas Games
athesdan
Jason Grundy wrote:
>
> In article <4uu9jh$b...@news2.texas.net>, Ray <xr...@texas.net> wrote:
> >field a Bart Simpson Happy Meal Doll! (Who, by the way, can shoot while hidden
> >without being exposed by rolling a 4-6 on 1D6...sometimes known as the "Not me
> >Man!" roll.)
>
> Doesn't he cause fear in all smaller models, and gets a demonic save? Can
no, no. that's a barney doll.
athesdan
Ray wrote:
> Before I get flamed...I am NOT complaining, just making an observation that
> the weapons in 40K shouldn't have a big impact on the way small unit tactics
> are used. This is because (once again there are a few exceptions) the weapons
> in 40K have 20th century correlaries.
flame 'em.
Leman Russ
>>getting things hot enough to cook) I actually have seen a 'meltagun'. One of
>>my friends had a mouse problem at his house. He took apart a microwave
>>attached a parabolic dish to the emitter and used car batteries and a big
>>capacitor to power it. Those were not happy rodents.
>Micropowered skaven frier! :)
And possibly more side effects than chomping warpstone!
Leman Russ(wary as usual of unshielded radiation...)
Avatar
Stryx (st...@chickasaw.com) wrote:
: In article <4v2qc8$h...@netaxs.com>, ava...@netaxs.com says...
:
: >Hmmmm...I don't know where you live, but I don't have any knowledge of
: >have not seen anything even close to a multi-melta in the real world..
: Plasma weapons exist (Arc Welder) but lack the magnetic bottle effects
: described in fantasy to achieve killing range. Space based Plasma is
: another matter entirely. Man portable lasers exist, but are not cost
: effective to conventional AP rounds. Again, wait for space. Finally,
: Multi-Meltas are nothing but Microwave Casters, which can be built
: easily with conventional components (see nail in da' microwave trick).
: They just don't match up to fast steel (yet).
:
This is all well and good, but still don't show why the weapon tactics
have to be the same. A weapon in development is not the same as a weapon
in full deployment. I am well aware that such weapons are under
development, but the simple fact is they are not in regular use so their
existence, at the moment, has no impact at all on military unit tactics,
which was Ray's arguement. All of these weapons will have a pretty great
impact on warfare as we know, but that impact is unknown. Ray was stating
that things won't change at all in 40,000 years because weapons are so
similar, and my comment was there to show that there are weapons that do
not exist in a battlefield context that can and probably will change the
outlook on the battlefield.....
Avatar
Mr. Self Destruct
>We're working on them - hope to see new ones maybe next year. Vyper is
>coming later this year if all goes well.
Yeah, right, sure, uh huh... I believe it.
Adam
Stryx
>Hmmmm...I don't know where you live, but I don't have any knowledge of
>plasma weapons, have not seen a functional man portable laser weapon, and
>have not seen anything even close to a multi-melta in the real world..
Plasma weapons exist (Arc Welder) but lack the magnetic bottle effects
described in fantasy to achieve killing range. Space based Plasma is
another matter entirely. Man portable lasers exist, but are not cost
effective to conventional AP rounds. Again, wait for space. Finally,
Multi-Meltas are nothing but Microwave Casters, which can be built
easily with conventional components (see nail in da' microwave trick).
They just don't match up to fast steel (yet).
>How about power fists?? Anyone??
Why carry a club if you have a gun?
Force fields are another matter though.
>Avatar
M. Stryx
Tyranid
>>I would like to see more kits of vehichles that
Games Workshop have designed rules for but don't produce, land
raider, battle wagon ect.<<
We're working on them - hope to see new ones maybe next year. Vyper is
coming later this year if all goes well.
Tim Huckelbery
Games Workshop USA Customer Service
Give us a call! 1-800-492-8820
And visit the Games Workshop Web Site:
http://www.games-workshop.com
Disclaimer: All rules clarifications are _unofficial_ until they appear in
White Dwarf, etc.!
Tim Dupertuis
>I tend to agree with peope that if you want to play with resin
vehichles go right ahead. The reason that I don't like them is
that the do unbalance the game. Take the falcon grav tank, it
costs 70 points carries 10 troopers, has a las cannon, and a
shuriken cannon, moves as a skimmer and has enclosed armour. Now
look at a eldar viper jet bike, for 80 points you get a skimmer
that carries no troops other than the crew, has the exact same
weapons, has about half the armour of the falcon, and has exposed
crew that can be killed with a lucky roll of a lasgun. Something
doesn't seem to equate. This is the same with almost all of the
other resin kits. I would like to see more kits of vehichles that
Games Workshop have designed rules for but don't produce, land
raider, battle wagon ect.
Hello Nurgle,
The Armorcast Falcon comes with a new Falcon datafax out that was developed with
the direct assistance of Andy and Jervis. This is a much more balanced datafax
(150 points) and replaces any other Falcon datafaxes. Is is shown below.
We are now working very closely with Andy and Jervis in the development of
Datafaxes. This will result in new and more balanced datafaxes for the Falcon,
Wave Serpent,Dactylis, Warhound, Reaver, possibly the superheavy tanks and any
future vehicles.
Some previous datafaxes were designed primarily to sell models...
Very much in favor of game balance Tim
BTW Armorcast f does produce an Ork Battlewagon.
ELDAR FALCON GRAV TANK
POINTS COST: 150 points
MOVEMENT:
Slow Combat Fast
10" 20" 30"
Type: SKIMMER
RAM VALUE:
8 Strength
D12 Damage
-5 Save
CREW:
1 Eldar Guardian driver
1 Eldar Guardian gunner
TRANSPORT:
Eleven Eldar, or two support weapon platforms with crews.
WEAPONS:
One lascannon with targeter and a 45{ field of fire to the front,and twin linked
shuriken catapults with tar-geter with a 90{ field of fire to the front.
Because the shurikan catapults have ample supplies of ammunition they are less
prone to jamming, so reroll any jams rolled on the sustained fire dice.
POP UP ATTACKS:
The Eldar Falcon can make pop up attacks as described in the rulebook.
SPECIAL RULES:
Generally skimmers cannot be attacked in hand to hand combat by troops on the
ground, it being assumed that the skimmer is able to zip up high enough to avoid
the fight if it wants to. This does not apply to the Falcon (or its larger
cousin, the Tempestand all other large Eldar vehicles), as they are simply not
quite agile or fast enough to carry out the evasive maneuver.
WEAPON DATA
Range To Hit
Save Armor
Weapon Short Long Short Long Strength Damage Modifier
Pen. Special
Lascannon 0-20 20-60 - - 9 2D6 -6 3D6+9
-
Shuriken Catapults 0-12 12-24 - - 4 1 -2
D6+4 Sust. 2D
ELDAR FALCON DAMAGE TABLES
Armor
D6 Location Front Side/Rear
1 Grav Engine 16 15
2-5 Hull
21 18
6 Lascannon
17 15
D6 Grav Engine Damage Table
1 The grav engine is damaged but keeps running. The Falcon may only move
at slow speed for the rest of the game.
2-5 The grav engine is destroyed. The Falcon moves out of control next turn
and then comes to a permanent halt for the rest of the battle.
6 A grav engine is blown off and the resulting damage causes the Falcon to
flip over. The wreck comes to rest D6" away in a random direction. Any
model it lands on takes D6 S7 hits with a -2 saving throw modifier. Roll a
D6 for each model on board. They are killed in the crash on a D6 roll of 4, 5 or
6 with no armor save allowed. Surviving models may dismount using the normal
rules.
D6 Hull Damage Table
1 The driver is hit and killed with no armor save. The Falcon will
move out of control until another model takes over.
2-4 A large explosion tears through the crew/passenger compartment. Roll a
D6 for each model on board. On a roll of 4, 5 or 6 they are hit and killed with
no armor save allowed.
5 The FalconUs engine explodes, killing everybody on board with no armor
save allowed. The Falcon is spun round to face in a random direction by the
force of the explosion and then comes to a permanent halt.
6 A spark ignites the FalconUs fuel tank and it bursts into flames,
killing everybody on board with no armor save allowed. The Falcon is destroyed
and any models within 3" of the Falcon suffer D6 Strength 10 hits with a -3
saving throw modifier.
D6 Weapon Damage Table
1 The lascannon is damaged and the weapon may only be fired if you first
roll a 4 or more on a 1D6.
2-5 The lascannon is destroyed and the weapon may not fire for the rest of
the game.
6 The lascannon is destroyed as above, but the explosion causes a
flashback to the hull causing a secondary explosion there. Roll on the Hull
Damage Table to find out what effect this has.
Datafax produced by ARMORCAST in cooperation with Games Workshop Ltd.
Copyright ) 1996 Games Workshop Ltd. All Rights Reserved. Under license from
Games Workshop Ltd
Warhammer and Games Workshop are registered trademarks of Games Workshop Ltd.
Used under license.
Dave I.
Ok, so here we go:
1)Possession of teleporting models
--it says in the rules that a "daemon" may posses a non
chaos teleporting model on a roll of a 6. Question is
what *kind* of daemon?
a) a Greater Daemon?
b) A lesser Daemon, and if so, do they still follow
the rules unders "summoning" stating that at
least 3 of them must arrive? that would be kinda
tricky?
2) Summoning. If I summon, say, 3 lessers daemons, can I
(on a subsequent turn) summon 1 more as long as it
can be placed within squad coherency of its pals?
-=Thanks bunches
-=D
nurgle 1
Glen
: We're working on them - hope to see new ones maybe next year. Vyper is
: coming later this year if all goes well.
Oh, that's just great. Should I just sign over my savings now or should I
give you part of my paycheck till the year 2025? :) I've been waiting a
long time to buy a squadron of Vypers for my Eldar army. The jetbikes are
cool, but they don't compare to a Vyper.
Scott Shupe
Dave I. wrote:
>
> Ok, so here we go:
> 1)Possession of teleporting models
> --it says in the rules that a "daemon" may posses a non
> chaos teleporting model on a roll of a 6. Question is
> what *kind* of daemon?
> a) a Greater Daemon?
I would say only if the teleporter is a character.
> b) A lesser Daemon, and if so, do they still follow
> the rules unders "summoning" stating that at
> least 3 of them must arrive? that would be kinda
> tricky?
> 2) Summoning. If I summon, say, 3 lessers daemons, can I
> (on a subsequent turn) summon 1 more as long as it
> can be placed within squad coherency of its pals?
Yes. This is in the codex, in the section on summoning lesser daemons.
Scott
Avatar
Tyranid (tyr...@aol.com) wrote:
:
: coming later this year if all goes well.
This is nice......The chaos army has been cut back to being allowed to use
a land raider, a rhino and a predator for vehicular support. One of those
vehicles isn't even available so that leaves Rhinos and predators until
sometime next year. Gotta love it!! Of course I could buy some vehicles
from the Ultramarines list if I wanted to pay 225 for a single razorback.
I'm sorry but this is rather annoying. I know it isn't your fault Tim,
but it would be nice if the guys upstairs could better coordinate their
product releases........
Avatar
OTR TimS
In article <4vh3tn$3...@newsflash.concordia.ca>, sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca
(Bub) writes:
>The Vyper model was actually on display at Games Day, and Jervis claimed
>that the master model had already been made, so only a few months away
>from being released. The first Eldar mini in months.
Could SOMEONE PLEASE tell me how the Vyper looked??????? Did it look ok,
did it look GOOD, or did it look like plastic dung? I do believe it's
supposed to be all plastic, right?
Tim
"Every Man Dies, Not Every Man Really Lives" - William Wallace
"It's not whether you win or lose, it's how much blood you draw!" - Kharn
the Betrayer
Visit our store!: Hobby Zone, 1426 Logan Ave, Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA,
82001
Glen
: look at a eldar viper jet bike, for 80 points you get a skimmer
: that carries no troops other than the crew, has the exact same
: weapons, has about half the armour of the falcon, and has exposed
: crew that can be killed with a lucky roll of a lasgun. Something
: doesn't seem to equate. This is the same with almost all of the
: other resin kits. I would like to see more kits of vehichles that
: Games Workshop have designed rules for but don't produce, land
: raider, battle wagon ect.
I wouldn't even bother using the Falcon Grav Tank in a game. Look at the
size of the Lascannon on the Falcon. It's huge and it only does the
damage of a Lascannon? There are Marines running around with Lascannons
1/20th of the size and it does the same amount of damage. Lascannons
are small enough for a Squat to carry and move around with. Somebody made
some big mistakes when they converted the Falcon over from Epic. To add
insult to injury, the INCREASED the point cost of the Falcon. Have they
lost their minds? They really crippled the Eldars....AGAIN. It's really
hard to understand how they can classify a Falcon as a Heavy Skimmer and
not give it heavier firepower. At least change it back where as enemy
troops can't engage it hand-to-hand.
I'm really hoping that they'll make it all up by putting out the Vyper
and making it look good.
Bub
Mr. Self Destruct (dark...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: >We're working on them - hope to see new ones maybe next year. Vyper is
: >coming later this year if all goes well.
: Yeah, right, sure, uh huh... I believe it.
The Vyper model was actually on display at Games Day, and Jervis claimed
that the master model had already been made, so only a few months away
from being released. The first Eldar mini in months.
: Adam
--
Bub
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~sd_fort
" I'm not crazy.... I swear ! "
Brainbasha
> I wouldn't even bother using the Falcon Grav Tank in a game. Look at the
size of the Lascannon on the Falcon. It's huge and it only does the
damage of a Lascannon? There are Marines running around with Lascannons
1/20th of the size and it does the same amount of damage. Lascannons
are small enough for a Squat to carry and move around with. Somebody made
some big mistakes when they converted the Falcon over from Epic. To add
insult to injury, the INCREASED the point cost of the Falcon. Have they
lost their minds? They really crippled the Eldars....AGAIN. It's really
hard to understand how they can classify a Falcon as a Heavy Skimmer and
not give it heavier firepower. At least change it back where as enemy
troops can't engage it hand-to-hand.
Yes it's double what you used to pay. Now it's in line with the Marine
Razorback. You've got a lascannon, so does the razorback. The falcon has
twin shuriken catapults - the razorback has twin plasmas. The falcon is
faster, a skimmer, AND still carries 10 eldar. The razorback carries 5
marines. The falcon can do pop-up attacks.
BTW - those lascannons being toted around by troops aren't move and shoot
like the falcon-mounted one.
I play marines and eldar. (I'm not just bemoaning the state of marine
vehicles!) I don't think anyone wants vehicles getting too nasty. What
Inquisitor calls "Class 3" weapons start to get really devastating on the
40K battlefield.
Brainbasha
//-------------------------------------------
// Richard Murphy - Brain...@aol.com
// Santa Clara CA
//-------------------------------------------
Bub
Glen (gle...@lys.vnet.net) wrote:
: I wouldn't even bother using the Falcon Grav Tank in a game. Look at the
: size of the Lascannon on the Falcon. It's huge and it only does the
: damage of a Lascannon?
What does "only the damage of a lascannon mean". The highest powered
weapon which is man portable in 40K.... What is the big deal ?
: Somebody made
: some big mistakes when they converted the Falcon over from Epic. To add
: insult to injury, the INCREASED the point cost of the Falcon. Have they
: lost their minds? They really crippled the Eldars....AGAIN.
I fail to see how they "crippled the Eldar" seing as the Falcon is an
unofficial tank and isn't supposed to be used in "official" games.
: It's really
: hard to understand how they can classify a Falcon as a Heavy Skimmer and
: not give it heavier firepower.
Obviously because Eldar don't believe in crude, heavy firepower.
None of their vehicles pack an insane amount of guns like Imperial or Ork
vehicles do.
And on the subject of transport tanks with heavier firepower, why not
give Rhinos assault cannons ? (because it's a transport tank !)
: I'm really hoping that they'll make it all up by putting out the Vyper
: and making it look good.
It looks great, but guaranteed to be priced considerably higher than I'd
want to pay for a big jetbike.
Tyler
Two squads of Terminators on occasion is reasonable, but if you used
that many all the time you would probably be able to slice it. It is
always nice to shake things up a bit just to keep your opponent on his
toes. I doubt that I would cry cheddar, but I play Dark Angels and
seldom face the teleporter "threat." In my experience they are too
expensive for the lack of accuracy. The teleporting behind the lines
strategy is a sound one, assuming that you hit near your mark. But on
average you will land 11" away in a random direction. This could make
hitting the table hard depending on how far behind your enemy you want
to hit. Or even worse you could find your precious squad of 500+ point
terminators in open ground in front of something like a Battlecannon or
Multimelta which would end your trip real fast. The Termi Captain going
first is a good idea, but there is still a good chance you will not
hit. I assume that a great deal of the termis are equipped for
assualt. I would probably go with some heavy weapons instead of the
assualt squad. The terminators will probably attract so much attention
that the enemy won't even notice your dev's with heavies pounding away
from the other side of the table. He will have to either ignore them or
split his forces, which will make his defense weaker overall. Doesn't
seem like a lot of marines for 3000 points but I guess teleporting
terminators will do that to you.
How does the battle end?
--
Master Ravenclaw
Dale A Holland
In article <177EA13262S...@uriacc.uri.edu>,
Dave I. <ADAS...@uriacc.uri.edu> wrote:
>Ok, so here we go:
> 1)Possession of teleporting models
> --it says in the rules that a "daemon" may posses a non
> chaos teleporting model on a roll of a 6. Question is
> what *kind* of daemon?
> a) a Greater Daemon?
> the rules unders "summoning" stating that at
> least 3 of them must arrive? that would be kinda
> tricky?
pick. :)
I'd say no to the second part. The daemons are scrambling at some poor schmuck
who bungled into the wrong part of the warp, not trying to see where all their
buddies are.
> 2) Summoning. If I summon, say, 3 lessers daemons, can I
> (on a subsequent turn) summon 1 more as long as it
> can be placed within squad coherency of its pals?
P 62 Chaos Codex
Daemons summoned on subsequent turns may be added to an existing unit of daemons
AKA Yup.
Muhahahaha!
Hope that helped!
Mr. Self Destruct
In article <4vh3tn$3...@newsflash.concordia.ca>, sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca (Bub) wrote:
>Mr. Self Destruct (dark...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
>
>: >We're working on them - hope to see new ones maybe next year. Vyper is
>: >coming later this year if all goes well.
>
>: Yeah, right, sure, uh huh... I believe it.
>
>The Vyper model was actually on display at Games Day, and Jervis claimed
>that the master model had already been made, so only a few months away
>from being released. The first Eldar mini in months.
Normally I'd believe them and they have been doing a good job recently, but
the vyper has been worked on for YEARS now.
Adam
Howard Liu
>I wouldn't even bother using the Falcon Grav Tank in a game. Look at the
>size of the Lascannon on the Falcon. It's huge and it only does the
>1/20th of the size and it does the same amount of damage. Lascannons
>insult to injury, the INCREASED the point cost of the Falcon. Have they
>troops can't engage it hand-to-hand.
Well, it's not the size of the weapon that matters...
From a post by Pat Marstall (Mars...@bah.com), on the (currently hosed)
Warhammer 40K mailing list:
The Squats will tell you that it is WIDTH that matters (and they'll deny any
suggestion that the size of the weapon inhibits their performance at ALL).
An Ork I knew, when asked about this, replied that it was neither length nor
width that mattered, but how much fun you have while firing your gun ( I also
asked him about pre-firing activities, but he just looked at me blankly and
picked his nose).
Despite their reported prowess with their Heavy Weapons, the Space Marines
profess no interest in the size or shape of their weapons... it's only
performance that matters.
Chaos... well, let's not go there.
As for the Eldar, we (as an enlightened race) realize that it is neither
length nor width that matters, but the skill in which you use it. Of course,
our guns are so big that we have to use grav-assisted sleds to carry them
around....
-Pat Marstall
Seriously, straight ports from Epic often end up tragically in 40K.
Regardless of whether you think the Falcon belongs in 40K (and I really,
really don't want to start a holy war here - and this means you, "Bub"), 40K
and Epic are different games, and the strategy and balance are different in
each. Bikes are normally used in Epic to pile an enemy in close combat, but
you'd probably be laughed off the field if you tried it in 40K (for one thing,
you might get shot down by one heavy bolter on overwatch). The Falcon in Epic
is a fast, versatile tank, able to carry troops, skim, and get away with a
decently powerful (i.e. better than one of the twin-linked lascannons on a
Land Raider, better than a Leman Russ's battlecannon) pop-up attack. In 40K
terms, that would be pretty fierce - they're probably better off downgrading
its capabilities. (Curiously, the Carnifex, in Epic, was upgraded, and seems
pretty insane to me. It's not even in the same class as the other
dreadnoughts, it's a friggin' super-heavy tank, except that it moves faster
and regenerates).
The Falcon, in Epic, isn't comparable to a Rhino, or even a Leman Russ. It's
up there with the Land Raider (although the Russ and the Raider are pretty
close in 40K). And in Epic, the Eldar lascannon is superior to the Imperial
one - but the weapons in 40K are more strictly regimented and defined. A
lascannon is a lascannon is a lascannon.
How can you cripple an army by giving it a new unit, no matter how bad?
Anyway, there was a holy war over whether the Falcon belongs in 40K scale at
all, the argument being that giving the superior Eldar HtH units a means of
easy transportation would unbalance the game in their favor. (On a
parenthetical note, if you want to see unbalancing, let a Tyranid army buy
spore pods for 40K). I don't really care one way or the other, which I
suppose puts me by default on the side that allows the Falcon, but I think
that if the issue is in doubt, it would be far better to overprice the Falcon
than to underprice it. That way, you would at least leave the option open to
people who are interested in the background and feel of the game, and in
having a wide variety of colorful units, while discouraging its use by people
who want to win at minimal cost. I also think that they ought to overprice
their special characters a little, by the same reasoning. At least then not
every Chaos army would be led by Abaddon, Despoiler of Worlds.
Ugh. Too much talk. Time to go eat...
Howard
New URL http://sdcc17.ucsd.edu/~h2liu/Cult.htm
"What if she turns you into a newt?"
"I'll get better."
Bub
OTR TimS (otr...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <4vh3tn$3...@newsflash.concordia.ca>, sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca
: (Bub) writes:
: >The Vyper model was actually on display at Games Day, and Jervis claimed
: >that the master model had already been made, so only a few months away
: >from being released. The first Eldar mini in months.
: Could SOMEONE PLEASE tell me how the Vyper looked??????? Did it look ok,
: did it look GOOD, or did it look like plastic dung? I do believe it's
: supposed to be all plastic, right?
Tim,
the vyper looked great, it's going to be made of plastic though we saw
one of the original molds all in white.
It's an Eldar jetbike with a longer and thicker canopy which goes goes
over the driver's head ! Fortunately, kunnin' eldar engineers made a hole
through which the driver can stick his head out of. The canopy up front
doesn't come to a triangular edge like regular jetbikes, instead, there are
two "fangs" at the front, making two triangle edges.
The back looks pretty much like Jonas Ekestam's Vyper, except it's a bit
larger and has a targetter on it.
Can't wait to get my 'ands on one of dese :)
: Tim
: "Every Man Dies, Not Every Man Really Lives" - William Wallace
: "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how much blood you draw!" - Kharn
: the Betrayer
: Visit our store!: Hobby Zone, 1426 Logan Ave, Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA,
: 82001
--
Tim DuPertuis
Howard Liu wrote:
> Seriously, straight ports from Epic often end up tragically in 40K.
> Regardless of whether you think the Falcon belongs in 40K (and I really,
> really don't want to start a holy war here - and this means you, "Bub"), 40K
> and Epic are different games, and the strategy and balance are different in
> is a fast, versatile tank, able to carry troops, skim, and get away with a
> decently powerful (i.e. better than one of the twin-linked lascannons on a
> Land Raider, better than a Leman Russ's battlecannon) pop-up attack.
>
> New URL http://sdcc17.ucsd.edu/~h2liu/Cult.htm
Howard is correct in saying that the vehicles have to be toned down to
work well in 40K.
Epic and 40K are very different games, even if they share the same
background. The Falcon is an APC, not a tank, and APCs are not able to
carry the firepower or the same armor as main battle tanks.
Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson are the ones who set the final design
features of the Falcon datafax, drastically upgrading the armor so that
it is comparable to a Chimera and bumping the points to 150 (also
comparable to a Chimera).
Enjoy, Tim
OTR TimS
In article <4viteo$o...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, eni...@fairway.ecn.purdue.edu
(Dale A Holland) writes:
>> 1)Possession of teleporting models
>> --it says in the rules that a "daemon" may
posses a
>non
>> chaos teleporting model on a roll of a 6.
Question
>is
>> what *kind* of daemon?
I thought it had to be a demon you PAID for? Hence, no demons, none there
to possess the enemy...
OTR TimS
In article <4vj9rf$o...@news1.ucsd.edu>, h2...@ucsd.edu (Howard Liu)
writes:
>As for the Eldar, we (as an enlightened race) realize that it is neither
>length nor width that matters, but the skill in which you use it. Of
course,
>our guns are so big that we have to use grav-assisted sleds to carry them
>around....
Bawhahahhahahaha!!! Good one!!!
OTR TimS
In article <4vjlq8$6...@newsflash.concordia.ca>, sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca
(Bub) writes:
>the vyper looked great, it's going to be made of plastic though we saw
>one of the original molds all in white.
>It's an Eldar jetbike with a longer and thicker canopy which goes goes
>over the driver's head ! Fortunately, kunnin' eldar engineers made a hole
>through which the driver can stick his head out of. The canopy up front
>doesn't come to a triangular edge like regular jetbikes, instead, there
are
>two "fangs" at the front, making two triangle edges.
>The back looks pretty much like Jonas Ekestam's Vyper, except it's a bit
>larger and has a targetter on it.
Bub,
Thanks a bunch for the info! It sounds really kool. I am going to be
buying a few of these babies, too, I even thought of painting one in each
of the major craftworld's colors. The two 'fangs' sound pretty cool, as
long as they aren't to large and gawdy looking. (Fangs = Vyper). And who
is Jona Ekestam, and where could I see a pic of his Vyper?
Thanx!