Space Marine Army

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Stim Neuro

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Feb 6, 2002, 2:04:09 PM2/6/02
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Time to open a can of worms.
I've recently started, and have 2 tac squads, a Chaplin, and 5
Terminators. Any tips on what I should add next?

Darth Tear

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Feb 6, 2002, 2:22:15 PM2/6/02
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"Stim Neuro" <stim_...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:e454ad38.02020...@posting.google.com...

> Time to open a can of worms.
> I've recently started, and have 2 tac squads, a Chaplin, and 5
> Terminators. Any tips on what I should add next?

Sell the Termies :) no, ok, keep them...but since your primary goal will be
to reach a 1000 p.ts army, I won't use them in it. I'll assume you're
building a vanilla army.

I suggest to buy: a Rhino (might prefer to wait for the new model), a Land
Speeder, a 5 men Assault squad, another Tac squad or maybe even two, and
possibly a Whirlwind or Predator or Razorback (same suggestion as for the
Rhino).

Then it depends on your playing style. If you want to build a shooty army,
which seems better for a vanilla marine, buy special and heavy weapon marine
blisters (dont buy that stupid Devastator squad with 4 different weapons..).
This way you can build Tac (or even Devastator) squads easily, combining
blisters and Tac squad marines. Always prefer 7-8 men squad at most, instead
of full 10 men squads.

--

--

DarkTear

---IHGGer # 1008---
---IHGGDNDer # 18---
---ICQ# 8760577 ---

"No! Try not!
Do. Or do not.
There is no try."


Jason Dyer

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Feb 6, 2002, 2:30:35 PM2/6/02
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Stim Neuro wrote:

Firstly - the "locals" will ask you to "tag" your messages with [40K]

Which type of marines army are you using? There are a number os
variants, and depending upon which, you will need to expand your forces
to match their specialties.
I will assume that you are collecting an "UltraMarine" army.

My first recommendation would be to get a Rhino transport and a few more
marines to make a command squad to go with the Chaplain. The Chaplain is
a hard hitting character, but he needs some support to get into HtH, a
vehicle will get him there sooner, and the command squad will "protect"
him.

Next... a fast attack.
Choices include assault marines - with jump packs, and Land Speeders.
Speeders are great, as you can configure them to tank killing roles.
This will be important against tyrannids, guard, Tau and other marines
in particular.

Then I would suggest a heavy support, such as a Whirlwind or Vindicator.

Land Raiders are really only worth the points in 1700pts battle and up -
250 pts is a lot to loose in turn one against a bright/dark lance!

Hope this helps a little, and contact again if you want more "advice"

JKD
________________________________________________
Jason Dyer, Ph.D.
Vancouver, BC, Canada

Research Scientist, GW-Outrider
Member RTC, 3rd Edition Fanboy

dy...@cord.ubc.ca
http://members.xoom.com/jkdyer/40k/wh40k-main.html

RGMW FAQ - Now in HTML!
http://www.sheppard.demon.co.uk/rgmw_faq/rgmw_faq.htm


Jim M

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Feb 6, 2002, 2:36:44 PM2/6/02
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"Stim Neuro" <stim_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e454ad38.02020...@posting.google.com...

> Time to open a can of worms.
> I've recently started, and have 2 tac squads, a Chaplin, and 5
> Terminators. Any tips on what I should add next?

More Tac squads...

Maybe some scouts...

Assault Marines are good...

Dev squads, but you may want to get the HW separate, and just bash a Tac
Squad...

Look at transport options,

And at least 3 Land Speeders...

Once you have lots and lots of troops...

WHIRLWIND!!!!!!!!!

The biggest problem with advising you as to what to get next, is that we
haven't a clue as to what or how you want to play, do you want a shooty army
or an assault based army?

--
Jim M
j...@hnjcomics.com
http://www.hnjcomics.com
Still looking to sell or trade that box of Eldar Guardians...

george worroll

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Feb 6, 2002, 2:59:07 PM2/6/02
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I'd recommend at least one Rhino for a tac squad, or a Razorback if they
are 6 or less strong. Whirlwinds are deadly if you can guess ranges
well. I'm only ok at guessing ranges, but even still its one of the
best units in my army. A devastator squad or two can be quite helpful
even in a HtH army, they can provide fire support to the advancing close
combat troops.

Beyond that, if you could give us a better idea of if this is a HtH
army, a shooting army, or a balance, more specific tips can be easily
given.

Rob Fungsang

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Feb 6, 2002, 6:24:45 PM2/6/02
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"Stim Neuro" <stim_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e454ad38.02020...@posting.google.com...
> Time to open a can of worms.
> I've recently started, and have 2 tac squads, a Chaplin, and 5
> Terminators. Any tips on what I should add next?

If by tac squads you mean two boxes of the 10-man set, start by upgrading
your existing units. Replace one squad's special weapon with a plasma gun
model. Then get a Rhino for the other squad (note: a new, more expensive
Rhino model is coming soon); this squad may also want to upgrade its special
weapon or add a veteran sgt.

Now you're ready to expand. Solid purhcases are a Predator, Landspeeder, or
a smaller Tac squad & Razorback. These are units good enough to want to
field multiple copies.

After you get some more experience, you can expand with more advanced units,
such as a Veteran squad (buy the Space Wolve Blood Claws box to get 10 men
with pistol/sword), a Dreadnought (many decide to convert the heavy weapon),
a Command squad, and a Devastator squad. Do NOT buy the boxed sets to build
the last two units.

Beyond that, there are the Fun-to-Have-But-Not-Essential units and the
Garbage units. The latter group consists of Terminator Assault squads,
Landspeeder Typhoons, Landspeeder Tornados, and all flavors of bikes. The
former is everything else not yet mentioned.

RF


Edward Bielcik

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Feb 6, 2002, 11:33:46 PM2/6/02
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>If by tac squads you mean two boxes of the 10-man set, start by upgrading
>your existing units. Replace one squad's special weapon with a plasma gun
>model. Then get a Rhino for the other squad (note: a new, more expensive
>Rhino model is coming soon); this squad may also want to upgrade its special
>weapon or add a veteran sgt.
>
>Now you're ready to expand. Solid purhcases are a Predator, Landspeeder, or
>a smaller Tac squad & Razorback. These are units good enough to want to
>field multiple copies.
>
>After you get some more experience, you can expand with more advanced units,
>such as a Veteran squad (buy the Space Wolve Blood Claws box to get 10 men
>with pistol/sword), a Dreadnought (many decide to convert the heavy weapon),
>a Command squad, and a Devastator squad. Do NOT buy the boxed sets to build
>the last two units.

Rob

Continuing this conversation from the Black Templars string because it
seems more appropriate here, how would you compose a 1700 point
generic Space Marine army for a tournament where you would only be
able to use one army?

In fact, this question shouldn't just be for Rob. Anybody can jump in
here.

Regards

Ed

Erik Connell

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Feb 6, 2002, 11:32:32 PM2/6/02
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"Rob Fungsang" <rfungsa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:a3sdv1$1ajimb$1...@ID-89564.news.dfncis.de...
*sob* ALL bikes are garbage? *looks mournfully at his 9 bikes and 1 attack
bike*. But, but, they are such nice looing models! Is there any way to
make use of bikes short of taking a whitescar or ravenwing army?

Erik C


Rob Fungsang

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Feb 6, 2002, 11:39:18 PM2/6/02
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"Erik Connell" <conn...@ses.curtin.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3c6202f3$0$30...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...

Sure, dioramas. But the only way to make them useful during a game is to go
back to 40k2.

RF


Rob Fungsang

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Feb 7, 2002, 12:28:12 AM2/7/02
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"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c6200d1...@netnews.att.net...

Hm, let's see... 1700 pts is planning for a GW tourney. I don't like the
current composition scoring system, so they won't factor in my decision.
Here's what I'd take:

Chaplain w/bolt pistol, Terminator Honors, and frag grenades - 87 pts.
5-man Command squad, includes Apotechary & Standard Bearer w/bolt pistols,
power weapons and frags, techmarine w/boltpistol & powerfist - 150 pts.
Attach a Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, extra armor, and smoke. - 93
pts.

Two dreadnoughts, each with plasma cannons, armor, and smoke. - 123 pts
apiece.

3 5-man Tac squads, each with Lascannon & Plasma Gun - 96 pts apiece.
1 9-man Tac squad with meltagun and veteran sgt w/power weapon (175 pts) in
a Rhino w/armor and smoke (58 pts)

1 Predator Annihilator w/lascannons sponsons, armor, and smoke - 153 pts.

Three landspeeders w/multimeltas in squadrons of one - 65 pts apiece.

1 8-man Devastator squad with 4 MLs - 200 pts
Attached is a Rhino w/armor. They'll never use it, but you can delpoy it
early as a gambit piece - 55 pts.

Total: 1700 pts.

You can vary this if you have a general idea of what opponents/missions you
are likely to play beforehand. For example, if there are multiple Tyranid
or Ork opponents in your area, you can safely drop a Landspeeder in an
effort to add another Tactical unit. Or if you know you'll be playing
missions that keep Heavy Support in reserves, drop the Dev squad for another
Predator or a Dreadnought.

RF


Edward Bielcik

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Feb 7, 2002, 12:18:02 PM2/7/02
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Rob

First, thanks for your reply and help.

if you don't mind I'm going to ask some questions. Please don't take
any of these questions as crticism, I'm just trying to understand some
of the concepts of game.

>Hm, let's see... 1700 pts is planning for a GW tourney. I don't like the
>current composition scoring system, so they won't factor in my decision.

Yep. The general idea is to build toward tourneys like Baltimore.
I'll build a "core" army and then add 300 points worth of troops for
the local "league".

But being new at this, I have no idea what the "new" composition
scoring system is. Care to expand on that?

>Here's what I'd take:
>
>Chaplain w/bolt pistol, Terminator Honors, and frag grenades - 87 pts.
>5-man Command squad, includes Apotechary & Standard Bearer w/bolt pistols,
>power weapons and frags, techmarine w/boltpistol & powerfist - 150 pts.
>Attach a Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, extra armor, and smoke. - 93
>pts.
>
>Two dreadnoughts, each with plasma cannons, armor, and smoke. - 123 pts
>apiece.
>

Looks like this army is oriented toward assault, so I understand the
Command Squad composition and plasma on the Razorback, but why use
Dreadnoughts? Once they're in close they're pretty vulnerable to
anti-armor weapons aren't they? I've been warned away from using them
by other knowledgeable players. What's the contraversy? I don't mind
a long answer on this one. <g>

>3 5-man Tac squads, each with Lascannon & Plasma Gun - 96 pts apiece.<

Why no Rhino for these? Are you dividing them this way in order to
increase the number of lascannons in the field? Aren't Lascannons and
Plasma guns used for differerent tactical purposes? Lascannons for
anti-armor and Plasma guns for anti-infantry?

>1 9-man Tac squad with meltagun and veteran sgt w/power weapon (175 pts) in
>a Rhino w/armor and smoke (58 pts)
>
>1 Predator Annihilator w/lascannons sponsons, armor, and smoke - 153 pts.

I understand the above concepts.


>
>Three landspeeders w/multimeltas in squadrons of one - 65 pts apiece.

I think I understand this too. They're "tank killers" and separating
them into three different units means that they all don't stop on one
morale roll.

I guess this would use up all of your "fast attack" options too, and
that's why you don't include "assault squads". Am I right? or do you
have other reasons for not including an "Assault Squad"?


>
>1 8-man Devastator squad with 4 MLs - 200 pts
>Attached is a Rhino w/armor. They'll never use it, but you can delpoy it
>early as a gambit piece - 55 pts.

I guess you feel that you have enough Lascannons in the field with
your tactical Squads, so you don't include them here, but what do the
other four Marines get? Wouldn't HB's be useful? And what's the
tactical advantage of having four ML's in a group?

>Total: 1700 pts.
>
>You can vary this if you have a general idea of what opponents/missions you
>are likely to play beforehand. For example, if there are multiple Tyranid
>or Ork opponents in your area, you can safely drop a Landspeeder in an
>effort to add another Tactical unit. Or if you know you'll be playing
>missions that keep Heavy Support in reserves, drop the Dev squad for another
>Predator or a Dreadnought.

I understand the Predator, but why the Dreadnought for anti-heavy
support. I really need to understand the tactical use of
Dreadnoughts. <g>

Thanks for your help.

Ed

John Hwang

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Feb 7, 2002, 4:16:24 PM2/7/02
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stim_...@hotmail.com (Stim Neuro) wrote:
>Time to open a can of worms.
>I've recently started, and have 2 tac squads, a Chaplin,

So far, so good.

>and 5 Terminators.

D'oh!

>Any tips on what I should add next?

More Tacticals; 10 SM w/ Jump Packs; a 5-7 man Dev squad of MLs and Plasma
Cannon; Lascannon and Plasma Guns for your Tacticals (passing the MLs over to
the Devs) -- none in any particular order. Rhinos and Razorbacks wouldn't hurt
either.

--- John Hwang "JohnHw...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny

Saint Jason

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Feb 7, 2002, 5:01:36 PM2/7/02
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>Time to open a can of worms.

How so?

>I've recently started, and have 2 tac squads, a Chaplin, and 5
>Terminators. Any tips on what I should add next?

Devistators and Command Squad. Plasma Cannon for the Dev's, and split the
Techmarine off to there. (With Techmarine Reroll, your chance of being fried by
plasma drops to around 1/108. Granted, it's a bit expensive, but for four St 7,
AP 2, H1, Blast shots that hit roughly 89% of the time....

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ <cut here> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
St. Jason

The truth is the first casualty of war - Aeschylus
RGMW - Give us the best of your knowledge and we'll mock you - Ned Leavitt

Saint Jason

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Feb 7, 2002, 5:03:05 PM2/7/02
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>I suggest to buy: a Rhino (might prefer to wait for the new model), a Land
>Speeder, a 5 men Assault squad, another Tac squad or maybe even two, and
>possibly a Whirlwind or Predator or Razorback (same suggestion as for the
>Rhino).

Bzzt! Buy Rhinos now, or nab `em when they go on sale to make room for the new
ones. (Besides, the old Rhinos are better looking... :^P

Rob Fungsang

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Feb 7, 2002, 7:49:37 PM2/7/02
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"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c62a84d...@netnews.att.net...

>
> Rob
>
> First, thanks for your reply and help.
>
> if you don't mind I'm going to ask some questions. Please don't take
> any of these questions as crticism, I'm just trying to understand some
> of the concepts of game.
>
> >Hm, let's see... 1700 pts is planning for a GW tourney. I don't like the
> >current composition scoring system, so they won't factor in my decision.
>
> Yep. The general idea is to build toward tourneys like Baltimore.
> I'll build a "core" army and then add 300 points worth of troops for
> the local "league".
>
> But being new at this, I have no idea what the "new" composition
> scoring system is. Care to expand on that?
>
About the best thing you can say about the system is it provides guidelines
to what used to be a completely subjective system. Let's see... From
memory, to get the max 30 out of a possible 40 points:

* The HQ has to have minimal wargear. Taking anything useful will lower
your score, as it costs too much.
* You must spend a _lot_ on Troops. 700 pts doesn't even earn a single
point. This is where the biggest chunck of points can come from (up to 15).
* Even more points if the number of Troops units outnumbers Elites, Fast
Attack, and Heavy Support combined.
* Further redundency by awarding bonus points for having a maxed size Troops
unit.

> >Here's what I'd take:
> >
> >Chaplain w/bolt pistol, Terminator Honors, and frag grenades - 87 pts.
> >5-man Command squad, includes Apotechary & Standard Bearer w/bolt
pistols,
> >power weapons and frags, techmarine w/boltpistol & powerfist - 150 pts.
> >Attach a Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, extra armor, and smoke. -
93
> >pts.
> >
> >Two dreadnoughts, each with plasma cannons, armor, and smoke. - 123 pts
> >apiece.
> >
> Looks like this army is oriented toward assault,

No, it's a shooting army, but it prepares for 40k3's strong HtH bias.

so I understand the
> Command Squad composition and plasma on the Razorback, but why use
> Dreadnoughts? Once they're in close they're pretty vulnerable to
> anti-armor weapons aren't they? I've been warned away from using them
> by other knowledgeable players. What's the contraversy? I don't mind
> a long answer on this one. <g>
>

Dreads are shooters/HtH defenders. Shooting's obvious; it can move and fire
a heavy weapon. In HtH, vehicle armor is very tough. Dreads and other
walkers can't even be hurt by meltabombs unless they are stunned/immobilized
beforehand. Only monsterous creatures and models with powerfists have any
real chance to kill them. Furthermore, an infantry powerfist must wait
until after a dread powerfist strikes, and except for the Death Company, SW,
and BT units the model wearing a powerfist is a minor character who can be
singled out. All this means a dread is nigh-invincible in HtH if he picks
his opponents well. He defends because of its poor mobility relative to
other assault units.

> >3 5-man Tac squads, each with Lascannon & Plasma Gun - 96 pts apiece.<
>
> Why no Rhino for these?

These squads aren't particularly valuable, and aside from starcannons, you
can't kill these squads easily without wasting shots that would be better
aimed towards other units.

>Are you dividing them this way in order to increase the number of
lascannons in the field?

Yup.

>Aren't Lascannons and Plasma guns used for differerent tactical purposes?
Lascannons for
> anti-armor and Plasma guns for anti-infantry?
>

No. Plasma guns are anti-light vehicle, and they will be more useful than a
meltagun or flamer that will never get into range.

> >1 9-man Tac squad with meltagun and veteran sgt w/power weapon (175 pts)
in
> >a Rhino w/armor and smoke (58 pts)
> >
> >1 Predator Annihilator w/lascannons sponsons, armor, and smoke - 153 pts.
>
> I understand the above concepts.
> >
> >Three landspeeders w/multimeltas in squadrons of one - 65 pts apiece.
>
> I think I understand this too. They're "tank killers" and separating
> them into three different units means that they all don't stop on one
> morale roll.
>
> I guess this would use up all of your "fast attack" options too, and
> that's why you don't include "assault squads". Am I right? or do you
> have other reasons for not including an "Assault Squad"?
> >

They're too expensive. BP/CCW Veterans in a Rhino fill the same role with
better protection and a lower cost per model after 6 men.

> >1 8-man Devastator squad with 4 MLs - 200 pts
> >Attached is a Rhino w/armor. They'll never use it, but you can delpoy it
> >early as a gambit piece - 55 pts.
>
> I guess you feel that you have enough Lascannons in the field with
> your tactical Squads, so you don't include them here, but what do the
> other four Marines get?

Protection. The less bolter marines there are, the earlier the heavy weapon
must be a casualty.

> Wouldn't HB's be useful?

Not at the cost a Dev squad works out to. A Whirlwind or Predator
Destructor is a lot cheaper.

> And what's the tactical advantage of having four ML's in a group?
>

Only slightly less powerful than lascannons, yet 1/3 less the cost than
Devastator lascannons.

RF


Edward Bielcik

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Feb 7, 2002, 10:13:05 PM2/7/02
to

>> >Here's what I'd take:
>> >
>> >Chaplain w/bolt pistol, Terminator Honors, and frag grenades - 87 pts.
>> >5-man Command squad, includes Apotechary & Standard Bearer w/bolt
>pistols,
>> >power weapons and frags, techmarine w/boltpistol & powerfist - 150 pts.
>> >Attach a Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, extra armor, and smoke. -
>93
>> >pts.
>> >
>> >Two dreadnoughts, each with plasma cannons, armor, and smoke. - 123 pts
>> >apiece.
>> >
>> Looks like this army is oriented toward assault,
>
>No, it's a shooting army, but it prepares for 40k3's strong HtH bias.

I'm not sure that I undrstand this. Are you saying that you *should*
purposely enter HTH with the Command Squad, or not?

> >1 8-man Devastator squad with 4 MLs - 200 pts
>> >Attached is a Rhino w/armor. They'll never use it, but you can delpoy it
>> >early as a gambit piece - 55 pts.

Why do you say they'll never use it? I thought the idea was to use it
get into range.

>> I guess you feel that you have enough Lascannons in the field with
>> your tactical Squads, so you don't include them here, but what do the
>> other four Marines get?
>
>Protection. The less bolter marines there are, the earlier the heavy weapon
>must be a casualty.

What I meant was, how would you arm the other four Space marines? But
I'm confused by your answer. What do you mean by "the less Bolter
Marines there are, the earlier the Heavy Weapon must be a casualty"?

Thanks

Ed


Rob Fungsang

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Feb 7, 2002, 11:10:47 PM2/7/02
to

"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c633eb0...@netnews.att.net...

>
> >> >Here's what I'd take:
> >> >
> >> >Chaplain w/bolt pistol, Terminator Honors, and frag grenades - 87 pts.
> >> >5-man Command squad, includes Apotechary & Standard Bearer w/bolt
> >pistols,
> >> >power weapons and frags, techmarine w/boltpistol & powerfist - 150
pts.
> >> >Attach a Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, extra armor, and
smoke. -
> >93
> >> >pts.
> >> >
> >> >Two dreadnoughts, each with plasma cannons, armor, and smoke. - 123
pts
> >> >apiece.
> >> >
> >> Looks like this army is oriented toward assault,
> >
> >No, it's a shooting army, but it prepares for 40k3's strong HtH bias.
>
> I'm not sure that I undrstand this. Are you saying that you *should*
> purposely enter HTH with the Command Squad, or not?
>
Yes, you should always enter HtH, but whether you actively seek it depends
on your opponent. For Orks, Black Templar, or Blood Angels, I'd let them
close the distance and then charge them. For other Imperial armies
(Imperial Guard, Battle Sisters, vanilla marines) or Dark Eldar, I'd drive
towards them.

> > >1 8-man Devastator squad with 4 MLs - 200 pts
> >> >Attached is a Rhino w/armor. They'll never use it, but you can delpoy
it
> >> >early as a gambit piece - 55 pts.
>
> Why do you say they'll never use it? I thought the idea was to use it
> get into range.
>

Missile launchers have a 48" range. Being close to the enemy is not
necessary nor desirable. You don't actually put the Devs in the Rhino
because a unit can only fire two weapons from inside it.

> >> I guess you feel that you have enough Lascannons in the field with
> >> your tactical Squads, so you don't include them here, but what do the
> >> other four Marines get?
> >
> >Protection. The less bolter marines there are, the earlier the heavy
weapon
> >must be a casualty.
>
> What I meant was, how would you arm the other four Space marines?

Bolters. There's no other option.

But
> I'm confused by your answer. What do you mean by "the less Bolter
> Marines there are, the earlier the Heavy Weapon must be a casualty"?

When your unit takes casualties from shooting, you get to pick what order
the models die. Naturally, you want the heavy weapon models to die last. A
5-man Dev squad would have to lose a heavy weapon with the second casualty,
while the above 8-man unit can wait until its 6th casualty to give one up.

RF


Edward Bielcik

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Feb 8, 2002, 12:38:12 AM2/8/02
to

>> I'm not sure that I undrstand this. Are you saying that you *should*
>> purposely enter HTH with the Command Squad, or not?
>>
>Yes, you should always enter HtH, but whether you actively seek it depends
>on your opponent. For Orks, Black Templar, or Blood Angels, I'd let them
>close the distance and then charge them. For other Imperial armies
>(Imperial Guard, Battle Sisters, vanilla marines) or Dark Eldar, I'd drive
>towards them.

OK. I see what you're saying now.

>> I'm confused by your answer. What do you mean by "the less Bolter
>> Marines there are, the earlier the Heavy Weapon must be a casualty"?
>
>When your unit takes casualties from shooting, you get to pick what order
>the models die. Naturally, you want the heavy weapon models to die last. A
>5-man Dev squad would have to lose a heavy weapon with the second casualty,
>while the above 8-man unit can wait until its 6th casualty to give one up.

I see. I thought you were referring to the unit that you were
*attacking*. <G>

I get the picture totally now.

Now how about a tactical question, so I can get an idea of how this
particular army would operate. Let's say this is a "cleanse" mission
against a HTH type army like Templars and you have the opening move.
The four quadrants all have a small building or two to hide in/behind
and no other terrain on the table. What would be you're priorities,
and where would you send your units. Are there typical "gambits" that
you would use? Enemy units that you always try to eliminate first? A
number of quadrants that you try to take first and hold? Now I know
it would depend on the type of vehicles and units that your opponent
is using, but I'm going to assume that there are similarities from
army to army with Templars.

Thanks again for your help. I don't want to bore anyone else with
this string, but I'm sure there are others that are interested in
discussing general tactics for this game.

Regards

Ed

Rob Fungsang

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 8:54:11 AM2/8/02
to
"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c635e12...@netnews.att.net...

> Now how about a tactical question, so I can get an idea of how this
> particular army would operate. Let's say this is a "cleanse" mission
> against a HTH type army like Templars and you have the opening move.

In quadrant games, deploying the first piece is the most important. If you
get to deploy the first unit, you can put the Dev squad's Rhino near the
table center. The opponent must then deploy all his units 18" away from
that Rhino while you can deploy a comfortable distance away. This increases
the distance he must cross to assault. If the Templar get first deployment,
they can get a Turn 1 charge if you're careless.

> The four quadrants all have a small building or two to hide in/behind
> and no other terrain on the table. What would be you're priorities,
> and where would you send your units.

Kill their fastest HtH unit, which is usually riding a transport. Shooting
is a defensive action in this game, because most units must remain
stationary to maximize their firepower. Aside from speeders and dreads,
I've occasionally kept everything else stationary until the last turn when I
make a run for other quadrants.

> Are there typical "gambits" that you would use?

There's the Rhino deployment above. I also like to recklessly send my land
speeders for good shots until they die or are weaponless. They're cheap,
and the potential benefits are too great to ignore. Once they are
weaponless run them to the far ends of the board because they can still
claim a quarter. Alternatively, a weaponless speeder can block enemy LOS to
other units.

Enemy units that you always try to eliminate first? A
> number of quadrants that you try to take first and hold?

Focus on holding your own quarter in the first two turns. Counter your
opponent's movement the next two. Try and sneak into the remaining quarters
on the last two turns.

RF


Edward Bielcik

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 11:19:23 AM2/8/02
to

>
>> Now how about a tactical question, so I can get an idea of how this
>> particular army would operate.

Rob

Thanks very much for sharing your ideas and tactics. Everything that
you've suggested sounds tactically sound and accomplishable.

If you don't mind continuiing with this, I would also like to know how
you would compose a "vanilla" Marine 1700 point army with a HTH
orientation. There are probably specific chapters that would be
better suited for HTH, but, being new, I'd like to try HTH tactics
with the Marines I already own, or can obtain without a huge addtional
investment . I was very impressed with your ideas for a "shooty"
army, and as a result have already picked up a few addtional pieces to
round out my army and try some of the formations that you've
suggested.

Thanks

Ed

Jim M

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Feb 8, 2002, 1:26:13 PM2/8/02
to
"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c63f66b...@netnews.att.net...
Hmmm Being a DA player, I have never much thought about HTH armies, but IF I
were to try and make one I think I would go with 2 maxed out Scout Squads
(all with P/CCW), as these can be deployed after everything else is set
up...a couple of 10 man tac squads with flamers & possibly HB (fire support
or HTH) a chaplain with termie honors and artificer armor and pistol , an 9
man assault squad with/out Jump packs and vet sgt w/pistol& PW a Dev Squad
with two Missile Launchers (or Plas Cans) and 7 Marines with bolters and a
Sgt with P/CCW (fire support) in a Rhino. Some Land Speeders for Support
with MM and finally a Land Raider or Crusader to deliver the assault squad
(with Chaplain) into hth quickly...

Now I have never tried to build this, but it seems to me it might work
okay...for HTH though I think it is best to Max out squads where ever
possible...

Jim M

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Feb 8, 2002, 2:16:00 PM2/8/02
to
"Jim M" <J...@hnjcomics.com> wrote in message
news:u6862cm...@news.supernews.com...
Damn rereading this I forgot the vet squad with termie honors in a rhino...

Edward Bielcik

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Feb 8, 2002, 2:38:07 PM2/8/02
to

Rob

Re: The Dreadnoughts, your suggestion was:

>Two dreadnoughts, each with plasma cannons, armor, and smoke. - 123 pts
>apiece.<

I have the basic plastic Space Marine Dreadnought kit. It doesn't
include a Plasma Cannon. So my question is, are there any sites that
either show how to do the conversion, or at least show a picture after
a conversion? I don't see any photos in the few White Dwarf issues
that I have.

But then do you think it's a very important factor to have
Dreadnoughts with Plasma Cannons, or do you think the Lascannons would
fit the bill? Or, for that matter, any of the other HW's that come
with the kit? Your suggested army looks pretty balanced, so I'm
thinking that you feel that the Plasma Guns on the Dreadnoughts are
important enough to do the conversion.

Regards

Ed


New, improved Craig Little with a shorter, fat free Usenet name

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Feb 8, 2002, 5:41:45 PM2/8/02
to

"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c642573...@netnews.att.net...

>
> Rob
>
> Re: The Dreadnoughts, your suggestion was:
>
> >Two dreadnoughts, each with plasma cannons, armor, and smoke. - 123 pts
> >apiece.<
>
> I have the basic plastic Space Marine Dreadnought kit. It doesn't
> include a Plasma Cannon. So my question is, are there any sites that
> either show how to do the conversion

It was in the FAQ at www.rgmw.org


Rob Fungsang

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Feb 8, 2002, 5:59:39 PM2/8/02
to
"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c63f66b...@netnews.att.net...

> Thanks very much for sharing your ideas and tactics. Everything that
> you've suggested sounds tactically sound and accomplishable.
>
> If you don't mind continuiing with this, I would also like to know how
> you would compose a "vanilla" Marine 1700 point army with a HTH
> orientation. There are probably specific chapters that would be
> better suited for HTH, but, being new, I'd like to try HTH tactics
> with the Marines I already own, or can obtain without a huge addtional
> investment . I was very impressed with your ideas for a "shooty"
> army, and as a result have already picked up a few addtional pieces to
> round out my army and try some of the formations that you've
> suggested.

I haven't really thought about a HtH vanilla army since the release of the
Space Wolves and Armageddon codices. But here goes:

Chaplain w/bolt pistol, T-honors, frag grenades - 87 pts.
5-man command squad w/techmarine & standard bearer w/powerfists, apothecary
w/power weapon & frag grenades, meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 166 pts.
Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts.
Note: detach the techmarine.

Commander w/lightning claws, iron halo, T-honors, frag grenades - 116 pts.

8-man Veteran squad w/BP & CCW, frag grenades - 152 pts.
Rhino w/armor, smoke - 58 pts.
Note: the techmarine joins here.

5-man Tac squad w/meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 85 pts.
Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts.

5-man Tac squad w/meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 85 pts.
Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts.

Rob Fungsang

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Feb 8, 2002, 6:05:01 PM2/8/02
to
"Rob Fungsang" <rfungsa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:a41l81$1b9rq4$1...@ID-89564.news.dfncis.de...

Hm, I seem to have accidently discovered a keyboard shortcut for sending...
To continue:

> I haven't really thought about a HtH vanilla army since the release of the
> Space Wolves and Armageddon codices. But here goes:
>
> Chaplain w/bolt pistol, T-honors, frag grenades - 87 pts.
> 5-man command squad w/techmarine & standard bearer w/powerfists,
apothecary
> w/power weapon & frag grenades, meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 166 pts.
> Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts.
> Note: detach the techmarine.
>
> Commander w/lightning claws, iron halo, T-honors, frag grenades - 116 pts.
>
> 8-man Veteran squad w/BP & CCW, frag grenades - 152 pts.
> Rhino w/armor, smoke - 58 pts.
> Note: the techmarine joins here.
>

Dreadnought w/plasma cannon, smoke, armor - 123 pts.

> 5-man Tac squad w/meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 85 pts.
> Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts.
>
> 5-man Tac squad w/meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 85 pts.
> Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts.
>
5-man Tac squad w/meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 85 pts.
Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts.

9-man Tac squad w/meltagun, veteran sgt w/BP & PW - 175 pts.


Rhino w/armor, smoke - 58 pts.

3 Landspeeders w/multimeltas in squardons of one - 65 pts each.

Total 1699 pts.

RF


Edward Bielcik

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Feb 8, 2002, 6:06:57 PM2/8/02
to

>>
>> I have the basic plastic Space Marine Dreadnought kit. It doesn't
>> include a Plasma Cannon. So my question is, are there any sites that
>> either show how to do the conversion
>
>It was in the FAQ at www.rgmw.org

I checked the faq at that address and it refers to several other
addresses. Can you tell me which one you mean?

Thanks

Ed


Ned Leavitt

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 6:07:07 PM2/8/02
to
In article <a41li3$1bgq1s$1...@ID-89564.news.dfncis.de>, "Rob Fungsang" <rfungsa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
<snip marine hth list>

So, in a hand-to-hand based marine army, you wouldn't use assault marines or
hth-armed scouts?
I almost added bikes to that list, but they just die in a normal army. Maybe
in cityfight, or a terrain with lots of woods, mountains and buildings to
block shooting line of sight, but with space to move between them.

-NEd

"People who are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history"
-J Danforth Quayle

"HA! I just killfiled god!"
-RGMW Outakes

"Words are like leaves / And where they most abound
Much fruit of sense beneath / is rarely found"
-Alexander Pope

"Just once, i wish we would encounter an alien menace that wasn't immune to
bullets."
-The Brigadier, "Doctor Who"

Puns are the highest AND lowest form of humour.

Edward Bielcik

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 6:22:39 PM2/8/02
to

>> If you don't mind continuiing with this, I would also like to know how
>> you would compose a "vanilla" Marine 1700 point army with a HTH
>> orientation. There are probably specific chapters that would be
>> better suited for HTH, but, being new, I'd like to try HTH tactics
>> with the Marines I already own, or can obtain without a huge addtional
>> investment . I was very impressed with your ideas for a "shooty"
>> army, and as a result have already picked up a few addtional pieces to
>> round out my army and try some of the formations that you've
>> suggested.
>
>I haven't really thought about a HtH vanilla army since the release of the
>Space Wolves and Armageddon codices. But here goes:
>
>Chaplain w/bolt pistol, T-honors, frag grenades - 87 pts.
>5-man command squad w/techmarine & standard bearer w/powerfists, apothecary
>w/power weapon & frag grenades, meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 166 pts.
>Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts.
>Note: detach the techmarine.
>
>Commander w/lightning claws, iron halo, T-honors, frag grenades - 116 pts.
>
>8-man Veteran squad w/BP & CCW, frag grenades - 152 pts.
>Rhino w/armor, smoke - 58 pts.
>Note: the techmarine joins here.
>
>5-man Tac squad w/meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 85 pts.
>Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts.
>
>5-man Tac squad w/meltagun, sgt w/BP & CCW - 85 pts.
>Razorback w/lascannon & twin plasma, armor, smoke - 93 pts

Looks like the most obvious changes from a "shooty" type army are
swapping the long range Lascannons for short range Melta-Guns, putting
the troops in vehicles, and making the vehicles Razorbacks, losing the
Land Speeders, giving the Sgts CCW, and making the main squad Vets.
Couple of other minor tweaks here & there.

Looks good and do-able.

But are you implying that if a HTH army is to be fielded that it ought
to be Space Wolves or Templars? What's your feeling on the other
codexed chapters? Any favorites?

Thanks again.

Ed


Rob Fungsang

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Feb 8, 2002, 6:33:26 PM2/8/02
to

"Ned Leavitt" <nlea...@uoguSPAMelpBADh.ca> wrote in message
news:a41ltr$565$2...@testinfo.cs.uoguelph.ca...

> In article <a41li3$1bgq1s$1...@ID-89564.news.dfncis.de>, "Rob Fungsang"
<rfungsa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> <snip marine hth list>
>
> So, in a hand-to-hand based marine army, you wouldn't use assault marines
or
> hth-armed scouts?

Nope. Assault marines are expensive and easier to kill than a squad in a
transport. HtH scouts would just slow me down.

> I almost added bikes to that list, but they just die in a normal army.
Maybe
> in cityfight, or a terrain with lots of woods, mountains and buildings to
> block shooting line of sight, but with space to move between them.

From what I've read in Cityfight battle reports, bikes become even more
useless than in standard games. You're always in difficult terrain, which
means you have a 1 in 6 chance to die every movement phase, and bikes can't
take cover saves.

RF


Rob Fungsang

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Feb 8, 2002, 6:42:29 PM2/8/02
to

"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c6459b4...@netnews.att.net...
Actually I managed to send the post before I finished. Check my other post
for the finished list.

> Looks good and do-able.
>
> But are you implying that if a HTH army is to be fielded that it ought
> to be Space Wolves or Templars?

Or Blood Angels. They're the strongest marine army (and cheesiest, with
some fundamentally broken bonuses), followed by Templar and then Wolves.

> What's your feeling on the other codexed chapters? Any favorites?
>

The Dark Angels (my army) just got desparately needed revisions. They are
now the strongest shooting marine force.

The Salamanders are now the weakest SM army.

If you count Chaos, they rank just below vanilla marines in shooting, a good
step ahead in HtH.

Can't say much about the Index Astartes rules because I haven't read or
played against most of them.

RF


Edward Bielcik

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Feb 8, 2002, 7:24:38 PM2/8/02
to

>The Dark Angels (my army) just got desparately needed revisions. They are
>now the strongest shooting marine force.

I've been considering them for a main army as well. Are the revisions
that you're referring to in the Dark Angels Codex, or have there been
printed changes in White Dwarf? Or somewhere else?

BTW, in case you missed my other post, I picked up a Dreadnought kit
and was surprised to find that the Plasma Gun isn't included. Do you
think the "vanilla" Marine army can get along without the Plasma Guns,
or are they really needed for balance?

Regards

Ed

Rob Fungsang

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:07:55 PM2/8/02
to

"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c64694e...@netnews.att.net...

>
> >The Dark Angels (my army) just got desparately needed revisions. They
are
> >now the strongest shooting marine force.
>
> I've been considering them for a main army as well. Are the revisions
> that you're referring to in the Dark Angels Codex, or have there been
> printed changes in White Dwarf? Or somewhere else?
>
The revisions are to the Dark Angels codex in this month's White Dwarf (US
265, UK 266), or online at
http://www.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/spacemarines/astartes
/darkangels/

> BTW, in case you missed my other post, I picked up a Dreadnought kit
> and was surprised to find that the Plasma Gun isn't included. Do you
> think the "vanilla" Marine army can get along without the Plasma Guns,
> or are they really needed for balance?
>

They could, but why settle? The conversion is quite simple and gives your
army more options. Otherwise you can get a better price-to-performance
return from other units.

RF


Edward Bielcik

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:27:29 PM2/8/02
to

>The revisions are to the Dark Angels codex in this month's White Dwarf (US
>265, UK 266), or online at
>http://www.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/spacemarines/astartes
>/darkangels/

Thanks for the info.


>
>> BTW, in case you missed my other post, I picked up a Dreadnought kit
>> and was surprised to find that the Plasma Gun isn't included. Do you
>> think the "vanilla" Marine army can get along without the Plasma Guns,
>> or are they really needed for balance?
>>
>They could, but why settle? The conversion is quite simple and gives your
>army more options. Otherwise you can get a better price-to-performance
>return from other units.

I'm not afraid to tackle a conversion if it's worth it. I just wanted
to make sure that it was. I haven't seen any photos of this
particular conversion. Do you know of a site, WD article, or any
other place I can see a picture of it? Or can you give me a general
description of what's to be done?

BTW, I have a question about Space Marine uniform colors. I've been
told that it doesn't matter what color the figures are painted, as
there are many sub chapters of existing well known chapters, like
Blood Marines and Templars, so, If I decide to paint my Blood Angels
black or my Templars blue it's OK as long as I use the correct badges.
Is this true? Or will I get hassled by the judges at a tourney if I
show up with a white Dark Angels army and try to use their codex? I'm
an old time traditional wargamer and I find it hard to imagine an army
of mechanized infantry wearing bightly colored, bullet attracting
colors, <g> I'd rather have them painted in some dark shade like
black, brown, or green, but don't want to hamper myself when it comes
to my choice of chapter.

Thanks

Ed

Ned Leavitt

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 8:40:26 PM2/8/02
to
In article <3c64753d...@netnews.att.net>, bie...@worldnet.att.net (Edward Bielcik) wrote:

>BTW, I have a question about Space Marine uniform colors. I've been
>told that it doesn't matter what color the figures are painted, as
>there are many sub chapters of existing well known chapters, like
>Blood Marines and Templars, so, If I decide to paint my Blood Angels
>black or my Templars blue it's OK as long as I use the correct badges.
>Is this true? Or will I get hassled by the judges at a tourney if I
>show up with a white Dark Angels army and try to use their codex? I'm
>an old time traditional wargamer and I find it hard to imagine an army
>of mechanized infantry wearing bightly colored, bullet attracting
>colors, <g> I'd rather have them painted in some dark shade like
>black, brown, or green, but don't want to hamper myself when it comes
>to my choice of chapter.
>

Rules- and tourney- wise, your particular colour and marking scheme can be
whatever you want. In a tournament, i woudln't push it too hard, ie painting
Dark Angels and using Black Templar rules, but other than that, most
tournaments olny require a certain level of paintign on all your minis, not
specific colours.

Edward Bielcik

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:55:45 PM2/8/02
to

>Rules- and tourney- wise, your particular colour and marking scheme can be
>whatever you want. In a tournament, i woudln't push it too hard, ie painting
>Dark Angels and using Black Templar rules, but other than that, most
>tournaments olny require a certain level of paintign on all your minis, not
>specific colours.

By "painting Dark Angels and using Black Templar rules" do you mean
using Dark Angels markings or colors? What I want to do is use my own
color scheme, but the correct markings for the chapter. IE paint a
Blood Angels unit black, but use the correct markings.

Ed

New, improved Craig Little with a shorter, fat free Usenet name

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 9:10:12 PM2/8/02
to

"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c647f1f...@netnews.att.net...

That would be fine, you can paint it up your own colour scheme and markings
and use it as a Blood Angels 'successor chapter' so it uses the Blood Angel
rules. Strictly by the fluff, you can't do this with Salamanders, who had no
succesors and Space Wolves, who's singlesuccesor chapter was destroyed.


Edward Bielcik

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Feb 8, 2002, 9:14:50 PM2/8/02
to

>That would be fine, you can paint it up your own colour scheme and markings
>and use it as a Blood Angels 'successor chapter' so it uses the Blood Angel
>rules. Strictly by the fluff, you can't do this with Salamanders, who had no
>succesors and Space Wolves, who's singlesuccesor chapter was destroyed.

Thanks. That opens up a few possibilities for me. <g> How about the
"White Scars"? I've heard of them, and seen there markings in kits,
but I don't know anything about them.

Thanks

Ed

Rob Fungsang

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Feb 8, 2002, 9:17:32 PM2/8/02
to

"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c64753d...@netnews.att.net...
>

> I'm not afraid to tackle a conversion if it's worth it. I just wanted
> to make sure that it was. I haven't seen any photos of this
> particular conversion. Do you know of a site, WD article, or any
> other place I can see a picture of it? Or can you give me a general
> description of what's to be done?
>

I'm sure they're all over the net if you look for them; it's a popular
conversion. Probably the three most common methods:

1) Attaching a Leman Russ plasma cannon sponson to a dread right arm. Cut
the original weapon at the base of the arm so it forms a smooth face like
the missile launcher arm.

2) As above, but cut the back half off a Devastator plasma cannon and attach
that instead. This looks pretty sweet if you use a 3rd ed plasma cannon and
can keep the hoses intact.

3) Mail Order the Chaos dreadnought plasma cannon arm. Just need to clip
and file the Chaos markings and spikes.

> BTW, I have a question about Space Marine uniform colors. I've been
> told that it doesn't matter what color the figures are painted, as
> there are many sub chapters of existing well known chapters, like
> Blood Marines and Templars, so, If I decide to paint my Blood Angels
> black or my Templars blue it's OK as long as I use the correct badges.
> Is this true? Or will I get hassled by the judges at a tourney if I
> show up with a white Dark Angels army and try to use their codex? I'm
> an old time traditional wargamer and I find it hard to imagine an army
> of mechanized infantry wearing bightly colored, bullet attracting
> colors, <g> I'd rather have them painted in some dark shade like
> black, brown, or green, but don't want to hamper myself when it comes
> to my choice of chapter.

A color scheme of your own is fine as long as it isn't mistaken for an
established paint scheme, and for this reason I suggest creating your own
badge. *BUT* I do remember tournaments in 2nd edition that forced all
non-standard schemes to play as vanilla marines. Even though I haven't
encountered that in 3rd edition, try to avoid these anal people.

RF


Craig Little, Duc Petit of Bretonnia, Salamanders Chaplain Grabthar

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Feb 8, 2002, 9:20:35 PM2/8/02
to

"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3c6483f8...@netnews.att.net...

They're a big biker chapter, and their rules appeared in a white dwarf (US
256) and got much discussion here. Your best bet is head over to
groups.google.com and search for "Index Astartes: White Scars"


Edward Bielcik

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Feb 8, 2002, 9:27:54 PM2/8/02
to

>2) As above, but cut the back half off a Devastator plasma cannon and attach
>that instead. This looks pretty sweet if you use a 3rd ed plasma cannon and
>can keep the hoses intact.

This sounds like my best bet. Thanks for the info.

Regards

Ed

Ned Leavitt

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Feb 8, 2002, 10:39:03 PM2/8/02
to

If you paint your marines with a black colour scheme and give them teh blood
angels markings, anyone who protests the use of the Blood Angels codex is a
twit. I just mean, there may be some resistance if, say, your guys are black
and white with crosses on their shoulder pads (Black Templar) and you use them
as a Blood Angels army. Beyond the chapters which already have codices,
however, you can paint however you want, and play using whichever rules you
want.

Edward Bielcik

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Feb 8, 2002, 11:25:40 PM2/8/02
to

>>By "painting Dark Angels and using Black Templar rules" do you mean
>>using Dark Angels markings or colors? What I want to do is use my own
>>color scheme, but the correct markings for the chapter. IE paint a
>>Blood Angels unit black, but use the correct markings.
>>
>
>If you paint your marines with a black colour scheme and give them teh blood
>angels markings, anyone who protests the use of the Blood Angels codex is a
>twit. I just mean, there may be some resistance if, say, your guys are black
>and white with crosses on their shoulder pads (Black Templar) and you use them
>as a Blood Angels army<

Thanks. It's not like I want to change tradition or anything. I just
want to paint units in a way that makes sense to me.

Ed

Justin Gaskins

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Feb 9, 2002, 12:53:05 AM2/9/02
to

For ease, use a Chaos Dred arm.

John Hwang

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Feb 9, 2002, 2:23:04 AM2/9/02
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bie...@worldnet.att.net (Edward Bielcik) wrote:

>But are you implying that if a HTH army is to be fielded that it ought
>to be Space Wolves or Templars? What's your feeling on the other
>codexed chapters? Any favorites?

Blood Angels, obviously. Most efficient army list available for this sort of
thing due to their loads of useful special rules. The next best choice would
be Black Templars, due to fall-forward and their vows.

--- John Hwang "JohnHw...@cs.com.no.com"
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| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
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John Hwang

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Feb 9, 2002, 2:26:03 AM2/9/02
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"Rob Fungsang" rfungsa...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>"Edward Bielcik" <bie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
>> But are you implying that if a HTH army is to be fielded
>> that it ought to be Space Wolves or Templars?
>
>Or Blood Angels. They're the strongest marine army (and cheesiest, with
>some fundamentally broken bonuses), followed by Templar and then Wolves.

Yup.

>> What's your feeling on the other codexed chapters? Any favorites?
>
>The Dark Angels (my army) just got desparately needed revisions.
>They are now the strongest shooting marine force.

Among Loyalists, yes.

>The Salamanders are now the weakest SM army.

Yes. Clearly inferior to the basic list.

>If you count Chaos, they rank just below vanilla marines in shooting, a good
>step ahead in HtH.

SCAFH is pretty darn good at shooting...

>Can't say much about the Index Astartes rules because I haven't read or
>played against most of them.

Iron Warriors get that extra Heavy slot in exchange for 2 Fast slots, plus
access to *real* Ordnance... That's nothing to sneeze at, either.

John Hwang

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Feb 9, 2002, 2:30:55 AM2/9/02