Chaos Space Marines: how to start??
Eraser3k
ask you some suggestions before to start painting my army! I've chosen to
buy a Chaos SM Army since i really like their bg and the miniatures. Now
i've to paint them but i don't know what kind of army i should start. I
explain: some friends have said me that i should assemble an army associated
to a demon like Tzeentch or Nurgle but i really like the look of Iron
Warriors and Black Legion that are undivided chaos.
The QUESTION IS: A UNDIVIDED CHAOS ARMY IS LESSER POWERFUL THEN A MARKED
ARMY OR IS IT BALANCED TOO????
I've just bought the Chaos Megaforce, the Demon Prince and 2
Obliterators......what kind of other pieces should i need to do a 1500-2000
pts army??
Thanks in advance to everybody for the lost time...........
Eraser3k
J. Nowlin
>ARMY OR IS IT BALANCED TOO????
First: Invest in barbituates, man. Calm down.
Second: Undivided armies are fine. Iron Warriors are bastards, so play them
and tell your friends to suck on your basilisk.
Karyth Teel
"Eraser3k" <a...@meabout.it> wrote in message
news:1R9pc.259695$rM4.11...@news4.tin.it...
The Chaos Codex is pretty confusing, with regards to the various ways to
name your army. First off, the alignment of your army (Khorne, Tzeentch,
Nurgle, Slaneesh, or Undivided) is based on the Mark taken by your armies
"leader." The leader for your army is the Great Demon or Chaos Lord, if you
have one, or the Lieutenant worth the most points if you don't. Your armies
alignment matters for certain things, so it's key to pick that mark well.
The demon prince that you bought would be your leader (as a Chaos Lord w/
more than 50 pts in demonic gifts), so the mark you give him will affect
unit selection later on. For example, squads that take a Mark of Chaos
different from your Leaders become Elite selections, regardless of their
original slot. Regardless of your Leaders mark, troops can always take the
Mark of Chaos Undivided, and remain in their original slot.
Where this rule really comes into play is with your basic Marines, who,
once marked with a specific god's Mark, gain drastic rules changes. If your
Leader has the Mark of a specific god, that gods basic troops stay Troops,
while other god's marked marines become elite. If your leader has the Mark
of Khorne, for example, than Berzerkers (Marines of Khorne) become Troops,
as are Marines unmarked, or with the Mark of Undivided. Marines with the
Mark of Nurgle (Plague Marines) become Elites, as would Bikers with the Mark
of Tzeentch. In a Marked army, you may never include rival god's Marks, so
an army may never have both the Mark of Nurgle and the mark of Tzeentch, or
Khorne and Slaanesh.
Nearly every army is Marked, one way or the other. On top of the rules for
Marks, there are the specific Chaos Legions. These are similar to the
chapters for loyalist marines. There are nine legions, one for each god and
5 for Chaos Undivided. The four legions for the gods are all very focused,
speciailist forces that limit your choices to units with the exact same mark
as your leader, so every unit must have the same mark. the undivided
legions are all a bit more generalist, yet still have special rules that
focus them.
The Iron Warriors, in the background, were the siege specialists for the
emperor. in their rules, they may include up to four Heavy Supports
(everyone else get's three) and they can take two new vehicles, the Basilisk
and the Vindicator. Iron Warriors are a rock hard army that excels at
shooting, yet can still take a pimped out Demon Prince and other toys for
HtH. It's a nice list, all around, if a bit powerfurl.
Karyth Teel
Erik Setzer
You might consider waiting for about four to six months, as 40K 4th
edition will be coming out then, and a lot of tactics will be
changing.
That said, an Undivided army is just as potent as the others, and in
some cases (the Iron Warriors noted in another post especially) can be
more potent.
You'll want to start with a core of three or four squads of regular
CSMs, backed by a squad of Chosen (in power armor or Terminator armor)
or Obliterators. A Daemon Prince makes a good leader. Grab some
Havocs for fire support, and a Predator's worth it too with the new
rules coming out. Some Raptors might be useful, but they could be a
bit expensive - convert them if you must. They'll be *very* useful
with the new transport rules making transport assaults less effective
and harder to pull off.
The rest is basically whatever matches your preference for play.
Check out the book, see what kind of tactics you think you'll be
using, and go with whatever units you think best match that style of
play.
I've also got a Chaos tactica online you can check out, it might give
you ideas:
http://www.inisfail.com/~kaptingavrin/malleus/tactica-csm.html
Some other hints about Chosen of Chaos:
http://www.inisfail.com/~kaptingavrin/malleus/tactica-csm-chosen.html
Hope this helps!
-Erik
--
Forge World has announced a new special today! A free
lobotomy with each purchase!
RGMW FAQ @ http://www.rgmw.org
Read it for your own good!
Eraser3k
question: can you make a 1500 pts Army List using Iron Warriors to give me
an example of all pieces I should need? And what about Black Legion? How you
consider them?
Thanks in advance
Eraser3k
Blue Raja
> Thanks to everybody for the quick answers! In addiction, I've another
> question: can you make a 1500 pts Army List using Iron Warriors to give me
> an example of all pieces I should need? And what about Black Legion? How
you
> consider them?
The general policy here is for the army creator (ie you) to write a list
which the other posters will critique. If you want hints on what to
include, try searching Google for some previous lists that have been posted
(http://groups.google.com/).
Using Iron Warriors you'll want a Basilisk (is there any other reason to use
them?). Other than that they're pretty standard AFAIK.
Also, please read the FAQ if you haven't done so already (link below).
--
The Blue Raja
"Besides, true evil never shows itself by trying to legitimizing itself.
Take 'Raja, for example. He's an EVIL little bastard and doesn't have to
announce it to the world. He decimates the millions with polite,
conversation and leaves a wake of devastation in his path." - Butch
RGMW FAQ - By order of Yoda Bob
http://www.rgmw.org
Helicon_One
> Hi, guys! I'm a beginner to the fantastic world of WH40K so i would like
to
> ask you some suggestions before to start painting my army! I've chosen to
> buy a Chaos SM Army since i really like their bg and the miniatures. Now
> i've to paint them but i don't know what kind of army i should start. I
> explain: some friends have said me that i should assemble an army
associated
> to a demon like Tzeentch or Nurgle but i really like the look of Iron
> Warriors and Black Legion that are undivided chaos.
Don't do Iron Warriors; every 12 year old cheesehead munchkin plays Iron
Warriors, so go for something less obvious. Word Bearers or Alpha Legion are
pretty nice for looks and background, less widely seen than the Iron
Warriors, and their rules are reasonably balanced. Black Legion are ok too I
guess, but a bit generic for my liking (although, ultimately, I guess that's
their point).
> The QUESTION IS: A UNDIVIDED CHAOS ARMY IS LESSER POWERFUL THEN A
> MARKED ARMY OR IS IT BALANCED TOO????
No need to shout, I'm only here.... An undivided Chaos army is balanced
enough, and more importantly, if you're new to the game it doesn't bog you
down with loads of army-specific special rules and restrictions like the
marked armies can do, so you can focus on learning the game without having
to spend ages just learning your army.
> I've just bought the Chaos Megaforce, the Demon Prince and 2
> Obliterators......what kind of other pieces should i need to do a
1500-2000
> pts army??
If you're just starting out, aiming straight for 1500-2000pts is getting
ahead of yourself a little. I'd suggest to start with you build a 500pt list
(from the above, you might have this already), play some games with it,
figure out what you don't have enough of in your force and expand to 750pts,
and repeat the process up to 1000pts, 1500, and then 2000 (or whatever you
get up to).
Ultimately for a 1500pt or 2000pt army I'd get some Chaos Marines, more
Chaos Marines and even more Chaos Marines. Throw a couple of tanks and a
daemon pack or two into the mix as desired, but lots of marines should be
your aim.
Tim
--
----------------
As we speak, Palestinian terrorists are polluting the United States with
genetically modified bagels that make people gay. The Office of Homeland
Security has accordingly raised the alert level to fuchsia.
Mike-Al - Usenet outtake
www.rgmw.org - the RGMW FAQ, ignore at your peril!
Currently listening to: 'Let's Kill Music' - The Cooper Temple Clause
Helicon_One
> Thanks to everybody for the quick answers! In addiction, I've another
> question: can you make a 1500 pts Army List using Iron Warriors to give me
> an example of all pieces I should need? And what about Black Legion? How
you
> consider them?
We can't design an army for you, you're the one who has to play it in the
end so only you will know what units you want in it in the first place.
As a VERY rough outline to the sort of quantities of models you'll require,
in a 1500pt Chaos army I'd expect to see 40-50 Marines with a few heavy and
special weapons mixed in and a Rhino or two, a commander, a couple of tanks
and a daemon pack. Couldn't be more specific than that, i'm afraid (for one
thing, my army lists tend to change every week or so).
Tim
--
----------------
As we speak, Palestinian terrorists are polluting the United States with
genetically modified bagels that make people gay. The Office of Homeland
Security has accordingly raised the alert level to fuchsia.
Mike-Al - Usenet outtake
www.rgmw.org - the RGMW FAQ, ignore at your peril!
Currently listening to: 'Saddest Song' - Easyworld
ric
> Don't do Iron Warriors; every 12 year old cheesehead munchkin plays Iron
> Warriors, so go for something less obvious.
<snip>
Are you listening Spacker :o)
Ric
Spacker
news:e4spc.456$SK5.8...@news-text.cableinet.net...
I'm merely finding an outlet for my inner child ;)
Dan
Qrab
"Blue Raja" <the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> Using Iron Warriors you'll want a Basilisk (is there any other reason to use
> them?). Other than that they're pretty standard AFAIK.
"9 Obliterators, 3 Predators and a Basilisk" is what you meant to say.
--
Be seeing you-
Qrab
Qrab
"Eraser3k" <a...@meabout.it> wrote:
> I explain: some friends have said me that i should assemble an army
> associated to a demon like Tzeentch or Nurgle
Sounds like your friends are trying to set you up with armies that are
difficult for a new player to play effectively.
> but i really like the look of Iron Warriors and Black Legion that are
> undivided chaos.
Iron Warriors are the new Biel Tann. That is, every powergaming
cheezeball out there plays this army. Black Legion is a good choice,
though some find it bland because it lacks any unique rules. As others
have said, Alpha Legion or Word Bearers are also good choices.
> The QUESTION IS: A UNDIVIDED CHAOS ARMY IS LESSER
> POWERFUL THEN A MARKED ARMY OR IS IT BALANCED TOO????
Well, this depends on the units you field, really. All in all, an
undivided army is going to be more flexible than a marked army, so I'd
say that it'd be the more powerful of the two.
> I've just bought the Chaos Megaforce, the Demon Prince and 2
> Obliterators......what kind of other pieces should i need to do a
> 1500-2000 pts army??
This is what I'd consider a solid foundation for building a Chaos army:
2-4 units of Chaos Space Marines with heavy and special weapons.
1 unit of Possessed with daemonic talons.
1 unit of Havocs with missile launchers or autocannons and the
tankhunter ability.
Blue Raja
news:qrab-883423.1...@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
> 1 unit of Possessed with daemonic talons.
I ran numbers for these guys a few weeks back and they came out much worse
than Daemonettes. Are you trying to keep it unaligned or is there another
reason to avoid the daemon packs?
Janet
"Eraser3k" <a...@meabout.it> wrote:
> Thanks to everybody for the quick answers! In addiction, I've another
> question:
That is just too good to not comment on. I've got a bit of an addiction
with wargaming too.
janet
--
It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on.
Marilyn Monroe
Qrab
"Blue Raja" <the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> "Qrab" <qr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:qrab-883423.1...@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
> > 1 unit of Possessed with daemonic talons.
>
> I ran numbers for these guys a few weeks back and they came out much worse
> than Daemonettes. Are you trying to keep it unaligned or is there another
> reason to avoid the daemon packs?
I wasn't trying to keep it unaligned, just listing what I thought would
make a good foundation for a chaos army. Certainly addining in a Daemon
pack is something I'd recommend. If I had them, I'd probably field
Daemonettes on a regular basis. I'm curious how it came to pass that you
had such a bad result with Possessed. I take it you used them more than
once? What armies did you face? How did you attempt to use them?
John Hwang
> "Blue Raja" <the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> Using Iron Warriors you'll want a Basilisk (is there any other
>> reason to use them?). Other than that they're pretty standard
>> AFAIK.
>
>"9 Obliterators, 3 Predators and a Basilisk" is what you meant to say.
Under TVR, why not take 4 Vindicators and/or Defilers?
--
--- John Hwang "JohnHw...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
Blue Raja
> I'm curious how it came to pass that you
> had such a bad result with Possessed. I take it you used them more than
> once? What armies did you face? How did you attempt to use them?
I haven't actually tried them in a game, I just crunched some numbers to see
how they compare, to see whether it was worth putting some together for
gaming.
I compared them with Daemonettes (the other option I was considering) and,
according to the numbers, they consistantly kill only 1/2 as many pts as the
Daemonettes while taking twice as many pts in casualties.
I believe the problem is that they cost twice as much as a Daemonette, while
having more or less the same stats. That means the Daemonettes will get
twice as many attacks and hence twice as many rending kills.
This isn't to say that I'd consider Possessed w/ Talons bad, but with
Daemonettes also available they seem to come a distant second.
Qrab
johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
> Qrab qr...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> > "Blue Raja" <the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> >> Using Iron Warriors you'll want a Basilisk (is there any other
> >> reason to use them?). Other than that they're pretty standard
> >> AFAIK.
> >
> >"9 Obliterators, 3 Predators and a Basilisk" is what you meant to say.
>
> Under TVR, why not take 4 Vindicators and/or Defilers?
Because IW can only have up to 1 Basilisk and up to 1 Vindicator.
Lascannon Preds are cheaper than Defilers, thereby freeing up the points
for the 9 Obliterators (630 points) and a tooled up Daemon Prince.
Qrab
"Blue Raja" <the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> "Qrab" <qr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:qrab-DDB16A.0...@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
> > I'm curious how it came to pass that you
> > had such a bad result with Possessed. I take it you used them more than
> > once? What armies did you face? How did you attempt to use them?
>
> I haven't actually tried them in a game, I just crunched some numbers to see
> how they compare, to see whether it was worth putting some together for
> gaming.
See, this is where number crunching lets you down. When you start
factoring in real game situations, the two units level out. I strongly
suggest using proxies to see how Possessed do in a real game.
> I compared them with Daemonettes (the other option I was considering) and,
> according to the numbers, they consistantly kill only 1/2 as many pts as the
> Daemonettes while taking twice as many pts in casualties.
> I believe the problem is that they cost twice as much as a Daemonette, while
> having more or less the same stats.
There are three significant differences between the Possessed statline
and the Daemonette statline:
Possessed are S5, meaning their non-rending hits have a better chance to
wound (and can even wound a Wraithlord).
Possessed are T4, meaning that they are less likely to be wounded by
small arms fire and CCW hits than Daemonettes are.
Possessed have a 3+/5+i save, meaning they can walk through small arms
fire and shrug off CCW attacks that Daemonettes can't.
> That means the Daemonettes will get
> twice as many attacks and hence twice as many rending kills.
> This isn't to say that I'd consider Possessed w/ Talons bad, but with
> Daemonettes also available they seem to come a distant second.
Yes, Daemonettes are a better deal based strictly on points value and
the kind of casualties they can deal out on paper, but the game doesn't
take place on paper, does it.
Blue Raja
> > > I'm curious how it came to pass that you
> > > had such a bad result with Possessed. I take it you used them more
than
> > > once? What armies did you face? How did you attempt to use them?
> >
> > I haven't actually tried them in a game, I just crunched some numbers to
see
> > how they compare, to see whether it was worth putting some together for
> > gaming.
>
> See, this is where number crunching lets you down. When you start
> factoring in real game situations, the two units level out. I strongly
> suggest using proxies to see how Possessed do in a real game.
I probably will next game (whenever that will be).
> > I compared them with Daemonettes (the other option I was considering)
and,
> > according to the numbers, they consistantly kill only 1/2 as many pts as
the
> > Daemonettes while taking twice as many pts in casualties.
> > I believe the problem is that they cost twice as much as a Daemonette,
while
> > having more or less the same stats.
>
> There are three significant differences between the Possessed statline
> and the Daemonette statline:
>
> Possessed are S5, meaning their non-rending hits have a better chance to
> wound (and can even wound a Wraithlord).
True, although I believe this is overridden by the Daemonette's greater
number of attacks.
> Possessed are T4, meaning that they are less likely to be wounded by
> small arms fire and CCW hits than Daemonettes are.
I'd considered this, but since Daemonettes will likely be summoned close to
combat shooting casualities become less relevant.
> Possessed have a 3+/5+i save, meaning they can walk through small arms
> fire and shrug off CCW attacks that Daemonettes can't.
Well, Daemonettes will still save 50% as regularly against non-power attacks
in HtH. Since there's twice as many it balances out.
> > That means the Daemonettes will get
> > twice as many attacks and hence twice as many rending kills.
> > This isn't to say that I'd consider Possessed w/ Talons bad, but with
> > Daemonettes also available they seem to come a distant second.
>
> Yes, Daemonettes are a better deal based strictly on points value and
> the kind of casualties they can deal out on paper, but the game doesn't
> take place on paper, does it.
Oh I don't disagree that number crunching isn't the be-all of the game, but
it does give you an idea of how things will play out.
BTW there's another advantage with the Daemonettes that I haven't mentioned:
more attacks means more consistant results, which is tactically important.
John Hwang
> johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>> >"9 Obliterators, 3 Predators and a Basilisk"
>> Under TVR, why not take 4 Vindicators and/or Defilers?
>
>Because IW can only have up to 1 Basilisk and up to 1
> Vindicator.
Should I imply that Vindicators are like Imperial Wraithlords -- only useful in
quantity?
>Lascannon Preds are cheaper than Defilers, thereby
>freeing up the points for the 9 Obliterators (630 points)
>and a tooled up Daemon Prince.
Got it.
Qrab
johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
> Qrab qr...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> > johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>
> >> >"9 Obliterators, 3 Predators and a Basilisk"
>
> >> Under TVR, why not take 4 Vindicators and/or Defilers?
> >
> >Because IW can only have up to 1 Basilisk and up to 1
> > Vindicator.
>
> Should I imply that Vindicators are like Imperial Wraithlords -- only
> useful in quantity?
You wouldn't hear me disagree with you. At the very least an Imperial
army needs two. An Iron Warriors army has so many other toys, that
fielding one is OK.