[40K] My Nazi space marines...
Maclendon
I started my own 40k Space Marine chapter known as
Mein Kreigern (My Warriors)
They all sport swastikas...
The primary goal of the chapter is the complete destruction of ALL alien
races, as well as Chaos forces.
Eric Jimerson
In <4t39qm$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> macl...@aol.com (Maclendon)
writes:
You need to find out whether or not Kreigen is masculine,
feminine or nueter, and put the appropriate suffix behind "mein".
Use 1/48th scale Tigers and Panthers in place of Preadators.
Jagdpanther
Moiner
In article <4t39qm$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, macl...@aol.com
(Maclendon) wrote:
>I started my own 40k Space Marine chapter known as
>
>Mein Kreigern (My Warriors)
>
>They all sport swastikas...
>
>The primary goal of the chapter is the complete destruction of ALL alien
>races, as well as Chaos forces.
Gee, what an ugly, pathetic, little troll.
--
Moiner
"nobody knows everything, SO use everything you know!"
charles e jr luna
While I applaud your attempt at customizing your space marine chapter, I
am not convinced that the use of swastikas is either appropriate or in
good taste. I think this might offend a lot of people, so you might tone
down the 'Nazi' aspects of it. Often (and unfortunately) just using the
German is enough to imply what the swastika makes unequivocal. Then
again, if you don't care what people think--use the swastikas.
Charles
cel...@unm.edu
ASMODAI
: Mein Kreigern (My Warriors)
: They all sport swastikas...
: The primary goal of the chapter is the complete destruction of ALL alien
: races, as well as Chaos forces.
Honestly, who the !@#!$ cares ?
--
Bub
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~sd_fort
" 'Attack' is the only order worth remembering " - Kharn
Donald Gates
sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca (ASMODAI) wrote:
>Maclendon (macl...@aol.com) wrote:
>: I started my own 40k Space Marine chapter known as
>: Mein Kreigern (My Warriors)
>: They all sport swastikas...
>: The primary goal of the chapter is the complete destruction of ALL alien
>: races, as well as Chaos forces.
>Honestly, who the !@#!$ cares ?
I might, if a clever history and color text are provided at some point
in time. It may make for an interesting story, and it could easily
fit into the WH40K setting - the Imperial Guard seems to draw more
than a few background traits from the German Military of the early to
mid 1900s. If however, this was the entirity of what Maclendon
intended to share, I think he/she shouldn't have bothered...
- Don
----------------------------------------
Sigfile Deleted to Protect the Innocent!
----------------------------------------
Rick Rutherford
Nero fiddled while Donald Gates (dga...@primenet.com) wrote:
: ...the Imperial Guard seems to draw more
: than a few background traits from the German Military of the early to
: mid 1900s.
Actually, the Imperial Guard are more like Russians in space than
anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
(an essential element of Soviet military doctrine from WWII - present).
--
Rick Rutherford ri...@digex.net The above opinions are mine.
"It seems to me that the nearer painting approaches sculpture the better
it is, and that sculpture is the worse the nearer it approaches painting."
-- Michelangelo
dartfrog
In article <4t81m1$n...@news3.digex.net>, ri...@ss1.digex.net says...
>
>Nero fiddled while Donald Gates (dga...@primenet.com) wrote:
>: ...the Imperial Guard seems to draw more
>: than a few background traits from the German Military of the early
to
>: mid 1900s.
>
>Actually, the Imperial Guard are more like Russians in space than
>anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
>(an essential element of Soviet military doctrine from WWII -
present).
>
The basic troops are numerous, but Ill-equipped for their battle field.
They use massive amounts of armor. Combined with the aforementioned
arty, and I have to agree. That's probably why I bought so many
"Valhallen" guardsmen.
-DF
John P. Raynor
Maclendon (macl...@aol.com) wrote:
: I started my own 40k Space Marine chapter known as
:
: Mein Kreigern (My Warriors)
:
: They all sport swastikas...
:
: The primary goal of the chapter is the complete destruction of ALL alien
: races, as well as Chaos forces.
Hold your fire, everyone...this idiotic little troll
isn't worth wasting valuable ammunition on...
Time to banish you to my kill-file Maclendon. <plunk>
- J. Raynor
Howard Eberly
dartfrog wrote:
>
> In article <4t81m1$n...@news3.digex.net>, ri...@ss1.digex.net says...
> >
> >Nero fiddled while Donald Gates (dga...@primenet.com) wrote:
> >: ...the Imperial Guard seems to draw more
> >: than a few background traits from the German Military of the early
> to
> >: mid 1900s.
> >
> >Actually, the Imperial Guard are more like Russians in space than
> >anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
> >(an essential element of Soviet military doctrine from WWII -
> present).
> >
>
> The basic troops are numerous, but Ill-equipped for their battle field.
> They use massive amounts of armor. Combined with the aforementioned
> arty, and I have to agree. That's probably why I bought so many
> "Valhallen" guardsmen.
>
But from a another P.O.V.
Russians had sucky armor while the I.G. do not...
although the Arty thing is a good point
(The Russians literally thought of Artillery as "The God Of The
Battlefield")
Donald Gates
ri...@ss1.digex.net (Rick Rutherford) wrote:
>Nero fiddled while Donald Gates (dga...@primenet.com) wrote:
>: ...the Imperial Guard seems to draw more
>: than a few background traits from the German Military of the early to
>: mid 1900s.
>Actually, the Imperial Guard are more like Russians in space than
>anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
>(an essential element of Soviet military doctrine from WWII - present).
Don't forget the phrase "Panzer Blitz!" - I think that the IG is an
amalgamation of several historical armies, with some new twists added
to the mix. The infantry aspect (cheap foot troops, substandard
weaponry for the grunt) is very Russian, but the reliance on rapid
armor strikes smacks VERY strongly of the Panzer Blitzkreig. Some of
the tank designs actually STRONGLY resemble German WWI armour (as well
as a number of other things). As I said, the IG draws from a lot of
sources, and using a "Nazi" theme to Imperial troops (even though the
original post was talking about marines, not guard) was not completely
without a foundation.
Johan Berghmans
Donald Gates wrote:
>
> sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca (ASMODAI) wrote:
>
> >Maclendon (macl...@aol.com) wrote:
> >: I started my own 40k Space Marine chapter known as
>
> >: Mein Kreigern (My Warriors)
>
> >: They all sport swastikas...
>
> >: The primary goal of the chapter is the complete destruction of ALL alien
> >: races, as well as Chaos forces.
>
>
> I might, if a clever history and color text are provided at some point
> in time. It may make for an interesting story, and it could easily
> than a few background traits from the German Military of the early to
> intended to share, I think he/she shouldn't have bothered...
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Sigfile Deleted to Protect the Innocent!
> ----------------------------------------
Hmmm... Well - Some people might be insulted anyway... But - he should at least
get the translation better... He's not very accurate in his German, is he. He
should at least get that right... "My warriors" is "Meine Krieger" in German.
Ah well - posting such an e-mail says enough on itself.
Roshan Zaraine,
Farseer of Vaulmakon.
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Johan Berghmans E-mail: berg...@cs.rulimburg.nl
berg...@matriks.rulimburg.nl
WWW: http://www.cs.rulimburg.nl/~bergmans/
______________________________
MAastricht Technological Research Institute for Knowledge and Systems,
Department of Computer Science,
University of Maastricht | Limburg,
the Netherlands,
Maclendon
The Chapter started as a faction of the Ultramarines. Its leaders felt
that Marneus Calgar wasn't punishing his enemies enough. They felt
complete annihalation of the Tyranids, Orks, and Eldar would solve the
problems of the Imperium. To get their chapter marking they looked back
and saw the symbol for the Nazi party as a sign of extermination, and
adopted it.
maclendon
ASMODAI
Maclendon (macl...@aol.com) wrote:
: The Chapter started as a faction of the Ultramarines. Its leaders felt
Actually, it would be nice if you did a bit of research before you
plugged swastikas and say that they are symbols of extermination.
You'll probably offend some players, but more importantly, an aryan
swastika is the symbol for fertility, which the indian nation has also
adpoted.
: maclendon
Eric Jimerson
In <4t93gg$o...@newsflash.concordia.ca> sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca
(ASMODAI) writes:
>
>Maclendon (macl...@aol.com) wrote:
>: The Chapter started as a faction of the Ultramarines. Its leaders
felt
>: that Marneus Calgar wasn't punishing his enemies enough. They felt
>: complete annihalation of the Tyranids, Orks, and Eldar would solve
the
>: problems of the Imperium. To get their chapter marking they looked
back
>: and saw the symbol for the Nazi party as a sign of extermination,
and
>: adopted it.
>
>Actually, it would be nice if you did a bit of research before you
>plugged swastikas and say that they are symbols of extermination.
>You'll probably offend some players, but more importantly, an aryan
>swastika is the symbol for fertility, which the indian nation has also
>
The Swastika was, I believe, an ancient religious symbol. The
Pre-WW2 Germans were certainly not the first to use it- Finnland for
instance also had it as their national insigna before they got hooked
up with the Germans. There are Swastikas in the trimwork of the
National Archives building in Washington DC.
The Nazis, and Hitler in particular, were big into Runes. They
found the Swastika and liked it. The "SS" runes were the same.
If you want a symbol that represents extermination of all those
unlike yourself... try the Hammer and Sickle. Or whatever Pol Pot used
as a banner.
Jagdpanther
sPz Abt 501
dartfrog
In article <31F832...@richmond.infi.net>, ebe...@richmond.infi.net
says...
>> >: than a few background traits from the German Military of the early
>> to
>> >: mid 1900s.
>> >
>> >anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
>> >(an essential element of Soviet military doctrine from WWII -
>> present).
>> >
>>
field.
>> They use massive amounts of armor. Combined with the aforementioned
>> arty, and I have to agree. That's probably why I bought so many
>> "Valhallen" guardsmen.
>>
>
>
>But from a another P.O.V.
>Russians had sucky armor while the I.G. do not...
I must disagree. The T-34 series of tank were some of the best
tanks EVER produced for their time. They were reliable, cheap, had good
protection and excellant firepower. In all over 85,000 T-34s were
produced and some are still being used in Central Africa and North
Korea. The T-34 is considered to progenitor to modern tank design.
Other Soviet tanks of the time, namely the KV series and the "Joseph
Stalin" series also served with distinction during the war.
It is commonly believed that the Germans had superior tanks than
the allies, but this was not really the case until 42/43. The Panzer I
and II were inferior to many of their Soviet, British, and French
counterparts. The later Panzer IIIs were good, but lacked the
numerical strength the Soviets held. The Panzer IVF was the first
German tank that could stand toe-to-toe with the Russian heavy
tanks.
The German's armored success was due primarily to their superior
tactics and leadership. (Read Guderian's "Achtung Panzer" it's an
excellent read.) They viewed the tank as its own weapon, not a support
weapon for the infancy<g>. In the attack they would range ahead, strike
hard and allow the infantry to come behind and mop up. The Germans also
enjoyed a close cooperation within the "Combined Arms Team" of armor,
infantry, arty and air units.
So to sum up...Soviet Armor was not very "sucky."
-Dartfrog
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
INFANTRYMEN: "We all know artillery is the King of Battle and the
Infantry is the queen....so what is armor?"
TANKER: "We're the chastity belt that keeps the bitch from getting
raped."
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Rick Rutherford
Nero fiddled while ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
: You'll probably offend some players, but more importantly, an aryan
Interestingly enough, you can find swastikas in Rudyard Kipling's
books. The symbol, as far as he was concerned, was used as
a Christian fertility sign (of course, he died long before Nazi
Germany existed). Imagine Space Marines running around the galaxy
promoting fertility...heh heh heh.
As far as Space Marines go, though, they're essentially genocidal
fanatics to begin with -- the rulebooks (especially Rogue Trader)
describe them as violently intolerant of any deviation from the
Emperor's notions of "purity", so adding a swastika is simply
putting a 20th-century stamp on a dark-future Fascist society.
It is, however, sophomoric bad taste.
Rick Rutherford
Nero fiddled while Howard Eberly (ebe...@richmond.infi.net) wrote:
: hmmmm...maybe I spoke too quickly...but compare almost anything to
: the King Tiger ;)
: Well...not sucky armor...but it pales in comparison to the metal gods
: that the Germans created...I should have considered the ^^^^^^^^^^
: earlier German stuff...
The late-war German tanks were impressive when they were:
a) available, and
b) functional.
The Panther in particular had a number of mechanical problems
when the early models came out (which often made it a liability
rather than an asset), and the King Tiger was never produced in
sufficient numbers to make a significant impact on the Eastern Front.
There's no question that the King Tiger was a "Lord of the
Battlefield", but 1 King Tiger vs. 10 T-34's is a poor match...
One of the reasons the T-34 wass the best all-around tank of
World War II was its reliability -- unlike a lot of German
tanks, a T-34 could just keep going and going and going.
Howard Eberly
Eric Jimerson wrote:
>
> In <31F832...@richmond.infi.net> Howard Eberly
> <ebe...@richmond.infi.net> writes:
> >
> >> >Actually, the Imperial Guard are more like Russians in space than
> >> >anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
> >> >(an essential element of Soviet military doctrine from WWII -
> >> present).
> >> >
> >>
> >> The basic troops are numerous, but Ill-equipped for their battle
> field.
> >> They use massive amounts of armor. Combined with the
> aforementioned
> >> arty, and I have to agree. That's probably why I bought so many
> >> "Valhallen" guardsmen.
> >>
> >
> >
> >But from a another P.O.V.
> >Russians had sucky armor while the I.G. do not...
> >(The Russians literally thought of Artillery as "The God Of The
> >Battlefield")
>
> but sucky. Before the T-34 was the BT-7, whuch had a (relatively) big
> gun and was _FAST_- while it could not stand toe to toe with the
> Germans, it was a useful recce vehicle.
>
> Please note that all the German Post-Barbarossa tank designs
> and improvements were brought on by the appearance of the T-34. The
> Tigers wold not have been as powerful as they were and the Panther
> would not have even been built had there been no "sucky" Russian tanks.
> The T-34 set the world onto the path of tank design that we still
> travel today.
>
> The Russians lived on Arty. Much like the IG. But, unlike the
> IG, the Russians put their Arty on battleworthy SP mounts- does JSU-152
> ring a bell? Gimme an Earthshaker on a Russ chassis, and I'll be happy.
> Sling one between the tracks of a LandRaider, and I'll jump up and
> down...
>
> I am an avid Panzer devotee. IMHO, the German Panzer forces
> accomplished military feats beyond what they could have reasonably
> expected to do. I also know that if it werent for the "sucky" Russian
> armor, no PzKfW IV would have ever been given a gun better than the
> 75mm/L24.
>
> Jagdpanther
>
> sPz-Abt 501 (SS)
hmmmm...maybe I spoke too quickly...but compare almost anything to
the King Tiger ;)
Well...not sucky armor...but it pales in comparison to the metal gods
that the Germans created...I should have considered the ^^^^^^^^^^
earlier German stuff... got carried
away there,
sorry
Howard Eberly
> : the King Tiger ;)
> : Well...not sucky armor...but it pales in comparison to the metal gods
> : that the Germans created...I should have considered the ^^^^^^^^^^
> : earlier German stuff...
>
>
> a) available, and
> b) functional.
>
> The Panther in particular had a number of mechanical problems
> when the early models came out (which often made it a liability
> rather than an asset), and the King Tiger was never produced in
> sufficient numbers to make a significant impact on the Eastern Front.
> There's no question that the King Tiger was a "Lord of the
> Battlefield", but 1 King Tiger vs. 10 T-34's is a poor match...
>
> One of the reasons the T-34 wass the best all-around tank of
> World War II was its reliability -- unlike a lot of German
> tanks, a T-34 could just keep going and going and going.
>
Although in actual combat...you'd have to get quite a few of those
suckers to distract the Tiger the while one of the other buggers shot at
the gas tank.
Kai-Oliver Maurer
charles e jr luna wrote:
>
> While I applaud your attempt at customizing your space marine chapter, I
> am not convinced that the use of swastikas is either appropriate or in
> good taste. I think this might offend a lot of people, so you might tone
> down the 'Nazi' aspects of it. Often (and unfortunately) just using the
> German is enough to imply what the swastika makes unequivocal. Then
> again, if you don't care what people think--use the swastikas.
>
> Charles
> cel...@unm.edu
>
> : I started my own 40k Space Marine chapter known as
> : Mein Kreigern (My Warriors)
> : They all sport swastikas...
> : The primary goal of the chapter is the complete destruction of ALL alien
> : races, as well as Chaos forces.
As a German I would even say it is *quite* bad taste. In addition, consulting
one's dictionary is definitely not the safest thing to do ;).
Oliver
Eric Jimerson
Howard Eberly
dartfrog wrote:
>
> In article <31F832...@richmond.infi.net>, ebe...@richmond.infi.net
> says...
> >
> >dartfrog wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <4t81m1$n...@news3.digex.net>, ri...@ss1.digex.net says...
> >> >
> >> >Nero fiddled while Donald Gates (dga...@primenet.com) wrote:
> >> >: ...the Imperial Guard seems to draw more
> >> >: than a few background traits from the German Military of the early
> >> to
> >> >: mid 1900s.
> >> >
> >> >anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
> >> >(an essential element of Soviet military doctrine from WWII -
> >> present).
> >> >
> >>
> >> The basic troops are numerous, but Ill-equipped for their battle
> field.
> >> They use massive amounts of armor. Combined with the aforementioned
> >> arty, and I have to agree. That's probably why I bought so many
> >> "Valhallen" guardsmen.
> >>
> >
> >
> >But from a another P.O.V.
> >Russians had sucky armor while the I.G. do not...
>
Gimme an Abrams or a King Tiger anyday!
Eric Jimerson
In <31F92F...@richmond.infi.net> Howard Eberly
<ebe...@richmond.infi.net> writes:
>
>
>> I am an avid Panzer devotee. IMHO, the German Panzer forces
>> accomplished military feats beyond what they could have reasonably
>> expected to do. I also know that if it werent for the "sucky"
Russian
>> armor, no PzKfW IV would have ever been given a gun better than the
>> 75mm/L24.
>>
>> Jagdpanther
>>
>> sPz-Abt 501 (SS)
>
>
>the King Tiger ;)
>Well...not sucky armor...but it pales in comparison to the metal gods
>that the Germans created...I should have considered the ^^^^^^^^^^
> away there,
> sorry
No problem, bucko. Lots of people do the same thing- assume the
Russian armor was crap. The tanks were good- I believe the Sovs had
2200 T34s in service in June 1941- the were just handled poorly.
BTW... The King Tiger was a beast- but her big sister the
Jagdtiger was a REAL monster. Go see one- you'll be in awe.
Jagdpanther
Eric Jimerson
In <31F9E4...@richmond.infi.net> Howard Eberly
<ebe...@richmond.infi.net> writes:
>
>> > sorry
>>
>> No problem, bucko. Lots of people do the same thing- assume
the
>> Russian armor was crap. The tanks were good- I believe the Sovs had
>> 2200 T34s in service in June 1941- the were just handled poorly.
>>
>> BTW... The King Tiger was a beast- but her big sister the
>> Jagdtiger was a REAL monster. Go see one- you'll be in awe.
>>
>> Jagdpanther
>
>
by
>Germany
Oh, no... The Krauts had some monsters- a few were even built..
The Jagdtiger is heavier and taller, perhaps a little longer.
About 25% more armor, and a 128mm gun in the hull that was almost twice
as powerful as the 88/L71.
Jagdpanther
sPz-Abt 501 (SS)
Howard Eberly
Eric Jimerson wrote:
>
> In <4tc722$q...@miranda.its.deakin.edu.au> Chris Collins> > Aye, and give ME a JS-3 to take on your Pzkfw VI, and I believe a
> T-60
> >could counter an A-1 any day of the week. King tigers are nice with
> their
> >big 88mm gun and loads of armour, but are not noted for an impressive
> >turn of speed or their reliability, and JS series tanks (As all
> russian
> >tanks were) were developed to run in conditions that vary from artic
> >conditions to desert. Don't quote me with the M-1 vs T-60 battle, as I
>
> >care little for modern tanks.
> >
> > If it wasn't for the T-34, your beloved king tiger wouldn't exist. As
>
> >they certainly didn't develope it to quell the threat of the almighty
> >Sherman (commonly known as the "Tommy-Cooker", for obvious reasons).
> > T-34, a tank WAY ahead of its time, and I believe a T-34 85 would be
> a
> >match for a KT, what it doesn't have in armour it easily makes up in
> >speed, an equally hard hitting gun and its ability to cross difficult
> >terrain, while German armour was notorious for ending up wallowing in
> the
> >mud, or loosing a track at the wrong time.
>
> One or two comments:
>
> The T-34 is the forefather of the Modern MBT. Its introduction
> onto the battlefielf spawned a whole new way of thinking in armor
> design. The Panther, Germany's direct answer to the T34 was the best
> MBT in the world until the M48 - this too is a credit to the T34.
>
> The only "Josef Stalin" series of tanks that were worht their
> salt were the JS-Is with the 100mm gun. The later JS-II and -III were
> better vehicles armor wise, but they were slower and their 122mm gun
> was not as effective in the anti-armor role (it did excell with HE
> rounds, however). Also, the JS-II, -III carried 23 rounds of two-piece
> ammo to a Panthers 70-odd, and the Panthers 75/L70 gun was just as good
> as the 122 for killing tanks.
>
> The 85mm gun on the T34 was in no way as good as the 88/L71 on
> the KT. It was slightly inferior to the 88/L56 on the Tiger I, and
> markedly inferior to the 75/L70 on the Panther.
>
> As for speed... German 88 crews were renowned for their ability
> to pick off fast moving T34s at 1000 or so meters. The 88s were capable
> of killing any target they could see- no Allied gun could claim that.
>
> Jagdpanther
>
> sPz-Abt 501 (SS)
>
>
> >
Well...seems I bit off a lil' more than I could chew!!! sorry about this
thread...but miniatures-wise, I'll continue the search for a KT...(I
think it would really Orky!) but I guess I'm just a hopeless
fanatic^H^H^H^H^H^H^H romantic....
dartfrog
In article <31F92F...@richmond.infi.net>, ebe...@richmond.infi.net
says...
<snip>
>
>hmmmm...maybe I spoke too quickly...but compare almost anything to
>the King Tiger ;)
>Well...not sucky armor...but it pales in comparison to the metal gods
>that the Germans created...I should have considered the ^^^^^^^^^^
>earlier German stuff... got carried
> away there,
> sorry
Many of these "Metal Gods" were good, but suffered from some severe
problems. The Mercedes version of the Panther A lacked a hull machine
gun (Ref: "Panzer Commander"), and they all suffered some severe
initial teething problems. The T-34 still enjoyed a significant
numerical and reliabiltiy advantage.
The King Tiger suffered more than anything from its poor ground
pressure distribution.. The thing couldn't leave the road for fear of
miring. They were powerful, but came out too late and with too few
numbers to do much of anything. If you're really interested in seeing
one, however, visit the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor at Ft. Knox
KY. They have one in the museum that's cut away on one side to expose
the interior. It sure was roomy <g>.
-DF
dartfrog
>Bigger!?!?! I thought that K.T.'s were the biggest things ever put out
by
>Germany
The jagdtiger was not really a tank. It was a tank destroyer. It
carried a 128mm cannon amd weighed around 100 tons. It was slow and
mired easily. Very few bridges/roads could support it.
The Germans also built a few larger vehicles. One, the MAUS, weighed in
at an impressive 185 tons and sported a 185mm cannon mounted coaxially
with a 75mm. As I recall only two of these monsters were built and
they were logistical nightmares.
Although it's not very well known, the US developed a similar vehicle to
the Jagdtiger called the T-10(That's right the US once used this
designator as well, look at all the T-29 heavy tanks that were produced
after the war.) The T-10 was a 90 ton behemoth armed with a
105mm hull-mounted cannon (looked like a JP Kannone). The thing had
four sets of tracks, two mounted side-by-side on each side to help
distribute the vehicle weight. These vehicles were designed to assault
the Seigfried line, but the project was abandonned during trials. Only
two were ever built.
-DF
Howard Eberly
Eric Jimerson wrote:
>
> In <31F92F...@richmond.infi.net> Howard Eberly
> <ebe...@richmond.infi.net> writes:
> >
> >
> >> I am an avid Panzer devotee. IMHO, the German Panzer forces
> >> accomplished military feats beyond what they could have reasonably
> >> expected to do. I also know that if it werent for the "sucky"
> Russian
> >> armor, no PzKfW IV would have ever been given a gun better than the
> >> 75mm/L24.
> >>
> >> Jagdpanther
> >>
> >> sPz-Abt 501 (SS)
> >
> >
> >the King Tiger ;)
> >Well...not sucky armor...but it pales in comparison to the metal gods
> >that the Germans created...I should have considered the ^^^^^^^^^^
> >earlier German stuff... got carried
> > away there,
> > sorry
>
> Russian armor was crap. The tanks were good- I believe the Sovs had
> 2200 T34s in service in June 1941- the were just handled poorly.
>
> BTW... The King Tiger was a beast- but her big sister the
> Jagdtiger was a REAL monster. Go see one- you'll be in awe.
>
> Jagdpanther
I guess I got sucked into a common, misleading belief
(I Blame The Media!!! ;)
Well at least it wasn't something life threatening....
(can't think of any examples right now ((it's late, so sue me)))
Chris Collins
John Bade
On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:42:02 -0700, Howard Eberly
<ebe...@richmond.infi.net> wrote:
I've painted my Marines up as German SS with 2 squads of storm
troopers for Nazi allies!
Jiffy Firelighter
Eric Jimerson
dartfrog
In article <4tc722$q...@miranda.its.deakin.edu.au>,
ccol...@deakin.edu.au says...
>
>
>>Gimme an Abrams or a King Tiger anyday!
>
> Aye, and give ME a JS-3 to take on your Pzkfw VI, and I believe a T-60
>could counter an A-1 any day of the week. King tigers are nice with
their
>big 88mm gun and loads of armour, but are not noted for an impressive
>turn of speed or their reliability, and JS series tanks (As all russian
>tanks were) were developed to run in conditions that vary from artic
>conditions to desert. Don't quote me with the M-1 vs T-60 battle, as I
>care little for modern tanks.
Sorry, but my M1A1HA W/APFSDSDU-T rounds can kill anything on the modern
battlefield. My personage is protected by one of the best armored tanks
in the world. I think you we're referring to the T-80 and while its
nice, it's still essential a medium tank, not an MBT.
-2LTDF
ASMODAI
Rick Rutherford (ri...@ss4.digex.net) wrote:
: Interestingly enough, you can find swastikas in Rudyard Kipling's
: books. The symbol, as far as he was concerned, was used as
: a Christian fertility sign (of course, he died long before Nazi
: Germany existed). Imagine Space Marines running around the galaxy
: promoting fertility...heh heh heh.
I've got some pretty gruesome images in my head now ;)
" Have 4 children or die heretic ! "
: As far as Space Marines go, though, they're essentially genocidal
: fanatics to begin with -- the rulebooks (especially Rogue Trader)
: describe them as violently intolerant of any deviation from the
: Emperor's notions of "purity", so adding a swastika is simply
: putting a 20th-century stamp on a dark-future Fascist society.
: It is, however, sophomoric bad taste.
Agreed.
: --
: Rick Rutherford ri...@digex.net The above opinions are mine.
: "It seems to me that the nearer painting approaches sculpture the better
: it is, and that sculpture is the worse the nearer it approaches painting."
: -- Michelangelo
--
Eric Jimerson
In <4tb53o$a...@news4.digex.net> ri...@ss1.digex.net (Rick Rutherford)
writes:
>
>The late-war German tanks were impressive when they were:
>
>a) available, and
>b) functional.
No kidding. Even the Mid-war MkIV F2s, Gs and Hs were good
tanks. Their reliability was higher than the later Tigers and Panthers,
as their design was more mature. A MkIV H could take on a T-34 on even
terms. Of course, the Russians knew this and put an 85mm gun on the
T34....
>The Panther in particular had a number of mechanical problems
>when the early models came out (which often made it a liability
>rather than an asset),
I'm sure the poor tankers at Kursk would agree. Damn fuel
pumps. But... 2 out of 5 Panthers NOW is better than 4 out of 5 LATER.
and the King Tiger was never produced in
>sufficient numbers to make a significant impact on the Eastern Front.
Or on the Western. The King Tiger should never have been built.
Too big, too Heavy. The Panther II should have been pushed ahead of the
KT- smaller, lighter, same gun, similar protection, more reliable. But,
nothing is more scary to a Sherman crew than the prospects of taking a
ridge that you know is defended by KTs....
>One of the reasons the T-34 wass the best all-around tank of
>World War II was its reliability -- unlike a lot of German
>tanks, a T-34 could just keep going and going and going.
Agreed. I hate those damn T34s. <G>
Jagdpanther
sPz-Abt 501 (SS)
Howard Eberly
Eric Jimerson wrote:
>
> In <31F92F...@richmond.infi.net> Howard Eberly
> <ebe...@richmond.infi.net> writes:
> >
> >
> >> I am an avid Panzer devotee. IMHO, the German Panzer forces
> >> accomplished military feats beyond what they could have reasonably
> >> expected to do. I also know that if it werent for the "sucky"
> Russian
> >> armor, no PzKfW IV would have ever been given a gun better than the
> >> 75mm/L24.
> >>
> >> Jagdpanther
> >>
> >> sPz-Abt 501 (SS)
> >
> >
> >hmmmm...maybe I spoke too quickly...but compare almost anything to
> >the King Tiger ;)
> >Well...not sucky armor...but it pales in comparison to the metal gods
> >that the Germans created...I should have considered the ^^^^^^^^^^
> >earlier German stuff... got carried
> > away there,
> > sorry
>
> No problem, bucko. Lots of people do the same thing- assume the
> Russian armor was crap. The tanks were good- I believe the Sovs had
> 2200 T34s in service in June 1941- the were just handled poorly.
>
> BTW... The King Tiger was a beast- but her big sister the
> Jagdtiger was a REAL monster. Go see one- you'll be in awe.
>
> Jagdpanther
Sevrenn
In article <31F92D...@richmond.infi.net>, Howard Eberly
<ebe...@richmond.infi.net> writes:
>Gimme an Abrams or a King Tiger anyday!
>
>
Pardon my hopping in here.....
Nope, PPSh-es, Sturmoviks, and a buttload of motivated Comrades in T-34's
(some, literally, hot off the assembly lines) were just fine to deal with
them poor SOBs in the Wehrmact, and those S.ausage S.uckers. But, hey this
is R.G.M.W, not R.G.M.H. In point of fact, Soviet armor was fairly cutting
edge in the pre-electronics age, while pre-war US armor, quite frankly,
was not up to snuff. Even during the war, the Sherman was a mediocre tank,
but as the Orks know, if you can make a million of 'em, quality, well,
can afford to suffer......
Gene
Tobias Rasokat
Howard Eberly wrote:
>
> Bigger!?!?! I thought that K.T.'s were the biggest things ever put out by
> Germany
Ever heard of the 'Maus' or the E100? A King Tiger is a light tank
compared to them with their weight of 150+ tons. Not to talk of ideas to
produce vehicles in the 1500t class...
Nothing of this ever saw field service, though...
TOBIAS
Voltron LePew
In article <4tau1p$a...@news3.digex.net> ri...@ss4.digex.net (Rick Rutherford) writes:
>Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!ss4.digex.net!not-for-mail
>From: ri...@ss4.digex.net (Rick Rutherford)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer
>Subject: Re: [40K] My Nazi space marines...
>Date: 26 Jul 1996 17:08:09 GMT
>Organization: Digital Express Group, Inc. (DIGEX)
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>References: <4t8e4e$r...@news.ycc.yale.edu> <4t8o9a$4...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4t93gg$o...@newsflash.concordia.ca>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: ss4.digex.net
>X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
>Nero fiddled while ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
>: You'll probably offend some players, but more importantly, an aryan
>: swastika is the symbol for fertility, which the indian nation has also
>: adpoted.
>Interestingly enough, you can find swastikas in Rudyard Kipling's
>books. The symbol, as far as he was concerned, was used as
>a Christian fertility sign (of course, he died long before Nazi
>Germany existed). Imagine Space Marines running around the galaxy
>promoting fertility...heh heh heh.
Well, all of this is partially correct. As has been stated, Hitler was
greatly interested in runes and symbolic use of shapes. He seized upon an
Indian glyph, the manji, that symbolized fertility (as has been stated) and
life. But guess what? The manji faces the opposite direction from the
swastika. The cross pieces of a manji make two Zs, whereas the crosspieces of
a swastika make two Ss. Why did Hitler decide to reverse the direction of a
glyph that meant life? You tell me. Probably the same reason millions of
"deviants" were put to death under his regime.
The use of this symbol, in partial ignorance, seems to be a toleration of what
it stands for, much like a local player who has painted his Redemptionists
white and called them "the Clan." However, I have no fundamental qualm with
this, it being a free country and all, it just kind of makes me sad to see
people giving Nazism and the KKK even subtle approval.
--lee ("but he made the trains run on time...")
archcommander_justinian
>>Actually, the Imperial Guard are more like Russians in space than
>>anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
>
>Not to mention the Mordians LOOK like Russians in dress uniform!
I always thought the Mordians looked a lot like Waffen SS troops,
especially with the silver/black alternate color scheme the Codex
showed.
The Ice warriors of Valhalla- Now THERE are some Russians.
I think a Nazi chapter would be very interesting. Except PC,
Non-White Robed, Non-Triskelion, people keep getting mad at
Non-PC, White Robed, Triskelion-bearing people.
Death to PC!
-Archcommander Justinian
Archmarines Chapter
Imperial Space Marines
"To Purge, Eradicate, and Defeat Chaos is our Fate."
-Maxim Divinus Odiator Malis: Motto of the Archmarines
Check out the Codex Archmarines at:
http://www.au.malaysia.net/people/tangcm/arch.htm
OTR TimS
In article <4t81m1$n...@news3.digex.net>, ri...@ss1.digex.net (Rick
Rutherford) writes:
>Actually, the Imperial Guard are more like Russians in space than
>anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
Not to mention the Mordians LOOK like Russians in dress uniform!
Da, Comrade!
Tim
HOBBY ZONE - All Hobby Items (including Games Workshop) ALWAYS 30% off!
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HUGE Inventory! Web Page Under Cosntruction!
Visit our store!: Hobby Zone, 1426 Logan Ave, Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA,
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"Every man dies, not every man really lives."
OTR TimS
In article <4t93gg$o...@newsflash.concordia.ca>, sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca
(ASMODAI) writes:
>You'll probably offend some players, but more importantly, an aryan
>swastika is the symbol for fertility, which the indian nation has also
>adpoted.
So that would make his marines.... marines of fertility? That is trully
scary...
ASMODAI
OTR TimS (otr...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <4t81m1$n...@news3.digex.net>, ri...@ss1.digex.net (Rick
: Rutherford) writes:
: >Actually, the Imperial Guard are more like Russians in space than
: >anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
: Not to mention the Mordians LOOK like Russians in dress uniform!
Actually, if painted a certain way, they look a lot more like US marines.
: Da, Comrade!
: Tim
: HOBBY ZONE - All Hobby Items (including Games Workshop) ALWAYS 30% off!
: Free Shipping On Orders Over $100 (USA ONLY)! COD Available (USA ONLY)!
: HUGE Inventory! Web Page Under Cosntruction!
: Visit our store!: Hobby Zone, 1426 Logan Ave, Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA,
: 82001
: E-mail Queries To: otr...@aol.com
: "Every man dies, not every man really lives."
--
Bub
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~sd_fort
" Postman plod, postman plod he's a miserable sod "
Marshman
frue...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Voltron LePew) wrote:
>Well, all of this is partially correct. As has been stated, Hitler was
>greatly interested in runes and symbolic use of shapes. He seized upon an
>Indian glyph, the manji, that symbolized fertility (as has been stated) and
>life. But guess what? The manji faces the opposite direction from the
>swastika. The cross pieces of a manji make two Zs, whereas the crosspieces of
>a swastika make two Ss. Why did Hitler decide to reverse the direction of a
>glyph that meant life? You tell me. Probably the same reason millions of
>"deviants" were put to death under his regime.
Probably because he was a lunatic and quite sick.
IMHO, of course... although I think I might be right :(
-- "A Marshmallow can be a gift from heaven, properly cared for and put
through the appropriate methods to ready it for consumption. Pay
attention to these words, and your marshmallows will be a full day of
delight!"
-- Marshman
Ryan Montieth Gill
ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
: Maclendon (macl...@aol.com) wrote:
: : The Chapter started as a faction of the Ultramarines. Its leaders felt
: : that Marneus Calgar wasn't punishing his enemies enough. They felt
: : complete annihalation of the Tyranids, Orks, and Eldar would solve the
: : problems of the Imperium. To get their chapter marking they looked back
: : and saw the symbol for the Nazi party as a sign of extermination, and
: : adopted it.
I've been working on a Space Marine Epic Chapter that I am either going
to name after one of the two The Red Devils (British 1 Arborne Div) or
The Afrika Corps. So I can sympethize a tiny bit. I have a great respect
for the the Afrika Corps under Rommel. (I think the Imperial 40K Eagle
perched upon a palm tree would make a grand symbol.
Dispite alot of bad feelings there were many people who served in the
Wermacht that were Old German Imperial Army or Kreigsmarine soldiers
that had little sympathy with the Nazi party. They were unfortunately
swept up in the tide of the appeal the Nazis had to the Masses. Poles,
Swedes, Fins, Austrians, Cechs, Alsacians (sp?), Dutch, and many other
conquered peopleds were forced into conscript armies. I have one friend
whos Father (from Alsance Lorraine) was forced to join the wermacht and
was sent to the Russian front. Once he returned the French government
imprisoned him as a trator to France. Sad to be stuck on the border areas
of two nations that use your region as a buffer zone.
The Waffen SS deserve no tribute by any person. They were a mob of
brutal, cold blooded murderers.
If I were you I'd use the pre Nazi German Emblems. Black even crosses
work too.
, : : Actually, it would be nice if you did a bit of research before you
: plugged swastikas and say that they are symbols of extermination.
: You'll probably offend some players, but more importantly, an aryan
: swastika is the symbol for fertility, which the indian nation has also
: adpoted.
Not to mention the Buddist sign of good luck.
--
- Ryan Montieth Gill /|\ Scotland Forever DoD# 0780/AMA/SOHC -
- _ryan...@turner.com or la...@emory.edu_ '85 CB700S 'Mehev' -
- I speak not for CNN, nor they for me. '72 CB750K 'The Barge' -
- '76 MonteCarlo 'Bumblecrow' -
ASMODAI
Voltron LePew (frue...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: Well, all of this is partially correct. As has been stated, Hitler was
: greatly interested in runes and symbolic use of shapes. He seized upon an
: Indian glyph, the manji, that symbolized fertility (as has been stated) and
: life. But guess what? The manji faces the opposite direction from the
: swastika. The cross pieces of a manji make two Zs, whereas the crosspieces of
: a swastika make two Ss.
Hitler didn't reverse the Manji, this was how the european aryan
population used the symbol. While the other aryan groups who went to
india used the standard manji you see now in hindu temples.
So whatever way you look at it, the swastika has always existed as it has
with the northern aryans, while it was reversed for the aryans who went
to the indian sub-continent.
I think I read some sort of Aryan veda which described this.. or it might
have been in class.
: The use of this symbol, in partial ignorance, seems to be a toleration of what
: it stands for, much like a local player who has painted his Redemptionists
: white and called them "the Clan." However, I have no fundamental qualm with
: this, it being a free country and all, it just kind of makes me sad to see
: people giving Nazism and the KKK even subtle approval.
Uh-huh.
: --lee ("but he made the trains run on time...")
Thomas Andersson
>Rick Rutherford (ri...@ss4.digex.net) wrote:
>I've got some pretty gruesome images in my head now ;)
>" Have 4 children or die heretic ! "
Hmm.. that dying bit just MIGHT interfer with the performace part
needed to make the 4 children. :)
--
+--------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
| Thomas Andersson, AKA <steiner> | ______ |
+--------------------------------------------------------+ |\ |
| | |_\ |
+--------------------------------------------------------+ | \ |
| ste...@kd.qd.se http://www.kd.qd.se/~steiner | |
+--------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
Decades BBS 33k6 24h 2:203/625.0 +46-54/831561
Howard Eberly
Thomas Andersson wrote:
>
> >Eric Jimerson wrote:
>
> >> No problem, bucko. Lots of people do the same thing- assume the
> >> Russian armor was crap. The tanks were good- I believe the Sovs had
> >> 2200 T34s in service in June 1941- the were just handled poorly.
> >>
> >> BTW... The King Tiger was a beast- but her big sister the
> >> Jagdtiger was a REAL monster. Go see one- you'll be in awe.
>
> >Germany
>
> ever had been more than 2 of them... That's a BIG motha!!
>
Altogether Now:
How Big Was It?
Eric Jimerson
Here's some stuff I dug up. Sources:
German: Encyclopodia of German Tanks of WW2, Arms and Armor
Press 1993
Russian: Tank Data: Aberdeen Proving Ground Series, 1969
Please pardon poor formating..
Table 1: German and Russian Tank Guns
Shell MV Pennetration (mm)
Gun | Wt(kg) | M/sec | | 300M | 1000M | 2000M | #rds
German Tank Guns
88L71 7.3 1129 270 225 150 72
88L56 7.3 930 190 155 120 92
75L70 4.75 1120 225 160 115 81
75L48 4.1 990 160 110 75 87
50L60 .93 1060 85 38 15 99
Russian Tank Guns
122L43 22.4 793 170 130 95 28
100L60 15.8 838 180 160 140 32
85L52 9.2 792 110 75 45 55
Guns:
88L71: King Tiger
88L56 Tiger I
75L70 Panther (all models)
75L48 Mk IV H and later
122L43 JS-II, JS-III
100L60 JS-I
85L52 T34/85
As can be seen here.. the German guns were smaller in caliber,
and had lighter AP shells, but fired them at a much higher velocity-
this is why they preformed so well. The 50/L60 is included to show how
weak the best of the German early tank guns were in comaprison.
Table 2: German and Russian Tank Armor Values
Armor Values Road
Tank | Front | Side | Rear | Speed(mph)
King Tiger 234/185 80/89 90 22.5
Tiger I 108/102 62/81 87 22
Panther G 140/112 58/50 47 29
Mk IV H 83/52 30/35 22 25
JS-III 134/253 93/107 90 22.5
JS-II 124/117 91/99 55 26
JS-I 133/112 97/72 72 26
T34/85 83/104 54/79 43 30
Split armor values are read Hull/Turret
Joseph R Martinez
On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Isaac Tobin wrote:
> How does playing a gang of KKK give them subtle approval? Not everyone plays
> "good guys".
> The KKK are most certainly evil. As are nazis. So if an evil army bears some
> similarity to them, how does that approve them?
> I don't think Hitler would approve of twisted ratmen using the swastika, or
> big green morons dressing in Nazi uniforms.
When you paint up a group of models in Nazi regalia, or a group of
redemptionists as clan members, you give the ideas that lie behind them a
benign approval. Its not subtle, because when I see the swastika, no
matter whether its in a different context or not, I am reminded of the
Nazis and their actions. By painting up models that resemble these
groups, you are trying to bring a certain set of thoughts into the
viewers mind. Now, whether you believe in those principles or not, you
are promoting their existence. This can be seen as approval. I don't
think most people are trying to actively promote the ideas, so I think
its a benign approval that those people are giving. But nevertheless,
the ideas are there and should not be promoted. Granted, its a free
country and there are no thought police with any power yet, so do what
you want, just realize that some people will be offended.
Isaac Tobin
>The use of this symbol, in partial ignorance, seems to be a toleration of
what >it stands for, much like a local player who has painted his
Redemptionists >white and called them "the Clan." However, I have no
fundamental qualm with >this, it being a free country and all, it just kind of
makes me sad to see >people giving Nazism and the KKK even subtle approval.
>--lee ("but he made the trains run on time...")
How does playing a gang of KKK give them subtle approval? Not everyone plays
"good guys".
My redemptionists are bad guys, based on the Spanish Inquisition (we have
three methods ...). Have you read the background for redemptionists? They
purge all unbeleivers and "deviants" with holy fire. Sounds pretty evil to me.
Sounds a wee bit similar to the KKK ...
The KKK are most certainly evil. As are nazis. So if an evil army bears some
similarity to them, how does that approve them?
I don't think Hitler would approve of twisted ratmen using the swastika, or
big green morons dressing in Nazi uniforms.
I dont mind if you dont approve of redemptionists in white - you can think of
them as friendly religous zealots if you want. But dont indicate that those
who approve of that are in same way pro-naziism (now that is offfensive to me).
-Isaac (is...@aloha.com)
http://www.aloha.com/~isaac/ plus one of the following:
My homepage = nothing needed WH40K=wh40k.htm
Tobin Graphics=tg.htm Necromunda=necro.htm
"I was a victim of a series of accidents, as are we all."
Thomas Andersson
>Eric Jimerson wrote:
--
Alan Brain
jble...@pcsedu.com (dartfrog) wrote:
>Sorry, but my M1A1HA W/APFSDSDU-T rounds can kill anything on the modern
>battlefield. My personage is protected by one of the best armored tanks
>in the world. I think you we're referring to the T-80 and while its
>nice, it's still essential a medium tank, not an MBT.
>
> -2LTDF
Much as the M-1A2 or M1-A1HA is well protected, the Armour Piercing Fin Stabilised
Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium - Tracer rounds ( but we shouldn't discuss Mark
numbers on an open line ) are by no means the last word in APDS technology.
The Ultimate APDS round belongs to the US Navy.
They took an army 280mm shell from the Atomic Cannon, fitted a sabot to it to make
it fit for the 16" (that's 415 millimetres ) on the USS Iowa, and fired it some 50
odd miles. 15 Kt yield.
Sorry, but I don't see the M1 in any mark either shooting accurately at that range,
nor surviving a direct hit.
Regards, AEB, Canberra, Australia
Alan Brain
Who would have thought a fairly idiotic troll would have lead to a discussion about
WW2 Soviet Armour - by people who actually know the subject! (Or at least conform to
my own prejudices).
Bravo.
Brian F. King
Joseph R Martinez wrote:
>
> On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Isaac Tobin wrote:
> > plays "good guys".
> > some similarity to them, how does that approve them?
> > I don't think Hitler would approve of twisted ratmen using the swastika,
> > or big green morons dressing in Nazi uniforms.
>
> redemptionists as clan members, you give the ideas that lie behind them a
> benign approval. Its not subtle, because when I see the swastika, no
> matter whether its in a different context or not, I am reminded of the
> Nazis and their actions. By painting up models that resemble these
> groups, you are trying to bring a certain set of thoughts into the
> viewers mind. Now, whether you believe in those principles or not, you
> are promoting their existence. This can be seen as approval. I don't
> think most people are trying to actively promote the ideas, so I think
> its a benign approval that those people are giving. But nevertheless,
> the ideas are there and should not be promoted. Granted, its a free
> country and there are no thought police with any power yet, so do what
> you want, just realize that some people will be offended.
So I suppose we should all paint up the zealots (who purge the heretics with
fire and bullets) in Pope hats in order to spread Christianity?
Perfect symbolism, if you ask me...
God, you guys are silly.
I'm surprised you haven't joined with the groups trying to ban D&D because
"there's demons in them thar books"... Oooooppsss, there's daemons in 40K,
too! Can't play that army - gives 'benign approval' to Satan himself!
The Eldar (elves/fay) are spreading that heathen type Celtic religion....
The marines remind me of the Inquisition and the Crusades...
I guess the only army I can play is tyranids... until someone comes up with
something they don't like about that...
Howard Eberly
are you referring to me??? I already posted an apology for starting this
silly thread!
Jerry
YEA! I'll tell you whats wrong with dem bugs! They don't look human, they're all
different, so FRAG the bastards!
Putting a nazi symbol, BTW I think it "looks" cool although I by no means support
Hitler or his Idealism, is not a support of the Nazi Party or its Ideology. The
Armies that fought for Hitler were no more evil than those that fought for our
President. We look upon those soldiers as "evil" because we are taught to dehuminize
our enimies so we can kill them. Shun the party, but not the soldiers. Oh BTW, the
whole damn thing is silly, no one should be offended by the symbolism of ignorance,
but by the piles of bones left behind by tyrants. That's the real crime against
humanity.
Rick Rutherford
Nero fiddled while Joseph R Martinez (mart...@gas.uug.arizona.edu) wrote:
: ... Granted, its a free
: you want, just realize that some people will be offended.
This is the point, really -- whether you are painting your bad guys as
Klan members or SS troops, you're playing with symbolism that reaches far
beyond the scope of the game into a recent history of savage, brutal
real-life murder. Some people will be offended by the symbolism because
they're offended by anything that isn't "Politically Correct", but others
will be offended because they know (and/or are related to people who know)
what it's like to be hunted by the Klan/SS/whatever.
Do what you want, just don't be surprised when an elderly Jewish man
starts cursing at you (for good reason) at the next convention...
Thomas Andersson
>ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
>The Waffen SS deserve no tribute by any person. They were a mob of
>brutal, cold blooded murderers.
Isn't this just a 'tiny' bit over generalised?? Do you coun't Waffen SS
alone, misstake it as Algemeine SS or do you mean SS as a whole??
Voltron LePew
In article <31FE12...@ncinter.net> "Brian F. King" <bri...@ncinter.net> writes:
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>From: "Brian F. King" <bri...@ncinter.net>
>Newsgroups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer
>Subject: Re: [40K] My Nazi space marines...
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>Joseph R Martinez wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Isaac Tobin wrote:
>> > How does playing a gang of KKK give them subtle approval? Not everyone
>> > plays "good guys".
>> > The KKK are most certainly evil. As are nazis. So if an evil army bears
>> > some similarity to them, how does that approve them?
>> > I don't think Hitler would approve of twisted ratmen using the swastika,
>> > or big green morons dressing in Nazi uniforms.
>>
>> When you paint up a group of models in Nazi regalia, or a group of
>> redemptionists as clan members, you give the ideas that lie behind them a
>> benign approval. Its not subtle, because when I see the swastika, no
>> matter whether its in a different context or not, I am reminded of the
>> Nazis and their actions. By painting up models that resemble these
>> groups, you are trying to bring a certain set of thoughts into the
>> viewers mind. Now, whether you believe in those principles or not, you
>> are promoting their existence. This can be seen as approval. I don't
>> think most people are trying to actively promote the ideas, so I think
>> its a benign approval that those people are giving. But nevertheless,
>> the ideas are there and should not be promoted. Granted, its a free
>> country and there are no thought police with any power yet, so do what
>> you want, just realize that some people will be offended.
>So I suppose we should all paint up the zealots (who purge the heretics with
>fire and bullets) in Pope hats in order to spread Christianity?
>Perfect symbolism, if you ask me...
>God, you guys are silly.
>I'm surprised you haven't joined with the groups trying to ban D&D because
>"there's demons in them thar books"... Oooooppsss, there's daemons in 40K,
>too! Can't play that army - gives 'benign approval' to Satan himself!
>The Eldar (elves/fay) are spreading that heathen type Celtic religion....
>The marines remind me of the Inquisition and the Crusades...
>I guess the only army I can play is tyranids... until someone comes up with
>something they don't like about that...
Listen, if you'd been following this thread like a good little knee-jerker,
then you would have observed that I said that there's nothing that I can do
about such people who paint their figs in this way. It's a free country!!!
However, I must take issue with being called silly over the fact that I _don't
like the subtle/benign/APATHETIC attitude taken towards the use of powerful
racist symbolism. If you had ancestors/family members who were
killed/burned/tortured by the Klan or Nazis, I don't think you give two s**ts
that the idiot fielding this army is "playing the bad guys." That seems to go
without saying.
As for the concept of people sometimes "playing the bad guys." Bad guys
according to whom? Until you make them so (by use of disgustingly racist
symbolism) none of the armies in any of the games can be pointed at as not
having a valid world view. They're all correct in their own eyes, and they
all hate each other equally.
In that respect, then, I suppose such a hate-filled game would tend to attract
people who don't mind fascism/hatred/genocide because, after all, c'mon, hey,
"I'm playing the bad guys..."
As for your argument about us "being like the anti-D and D ers" well, I play
most of the Games Workshop games, the content of the _games_ don't give me any
problems, I would just choose not to play if my opponent breaks out a bunch of
swastika-branded "Meine Kreiger." Capiche? Its got nothing to do with
stopping a game from existing, its got nothing to do with censorship.
The point is: THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED TO THE
PROPAGATION OF RACE-HATE.
So get over yourself and stop trying to lump us with Fundamentalists.
Knee-jerker.
--lee ("Oh, that guy said something was bad. He must mean he wants it
banned...")
whitten
Isaac Tobin wrote:
>
> The KKK exists. Its a fact. They are utterly and horribly evil, and should all
> be killed.
Everybody is capable of good and evil acts. The KKK, misguided
and wrong as they may be, are still human beings. And though their acts
may be due to ignorance, hatred, or even evil, death is not warrented.
Killing someone because they believe 'white' is a better color than
'black' is no better than killing someone because they are 'black'.
Being of Euro ethnic origins and having grown up in the States,
I have seen discrimination though haven't experienced it myself. I can't
say I understand what Africa-Americans, or any other discriminated
upon group, feels. I also can't say I understand the motivations of
those in this society who spew forth hate. I have hated before so I
understand hate. And I feel pity for those who hate - the haters and
those who hate the haters. But I don't feel pity for the victims of
hate, for ultimately they are the strong ones.
Thomas Whitten
These games we play are just games. Outside of the diversion
they provide, they are worthless. Anything worth while is gained from
the people you play the games with.
Isaac Tobin
>When you paint up a group of models in Nazi regalia, or a group of
>redemptionists as clan members, you give the ideas that lie behind them a
>benign approval. Its not subtle, because when I see the swastika, no
>matter whether its in a different context or not, I am reminded of the
>Nazis and their actions. By painting up models that resemble these
>groups, you are trying to bring a certain set of thoughts into the
>viewers mind. Now, whether you believe in those principles or not, you
>are promoting their existence. This can be seen as approval. I don't
>think most people are trying to actively promote the ideas, so I think
>its a benign approval that those people are giving. But nevertheless,
>the ideas are there and should not be promoted. Granted, its a free
>country and there are no thought police with any power yet, so do what
>you want, just realize that some people will be offended.
So you would rather forget and ignore these evils?
I agree that painting Swastikas on marines is in bad taste, but I must
disagree about the redempionists.
The KKK exists. Its a fact. They are utterly and horribly evil, and should all
be killed. I see no problem with parodying them. Are you saying when you
parody something you approve them?
Yes, you promote their existence, but ignoring these two vile groups will not
make them go away.
Adam Dixon
Voltron LePew wrote:
> Well, all of this is partially correct. As has been stated, Hitler was
> greatly interested in runes and symbolic use of shapes. He seized upon an
> Indian glyph, the manji, that symbolized fertility (as has been stated) and
> life. But guess what? The manji faces the opposite direction from the
> swastika. The cross pieces of a manji make two Zs, whereas the crosspieces of
> glyph that meant life? You tell me. Probably the same reason millions of
> "deviants" were put to death under his regime.
>
> it stands for, much like a local player who has painted his Redemptionists
> white and called them "the Clan." However, I have no fundamental qualm with
> this, it being a free country and all, it just kind of makes me sad to see
> people giving Nazism and the KKK even subtle approval.
>
> --lee ("but he made the trains run on time...")
While playing a game of Necromunda at my local games store, the idea of
painting up some Redemptionist 'good ole boys' and an
Afro-American/Black street gang from Delaque miniatures then having a
big fight was brought up. Now, this may sound totally un-PC, but you
have to admit, it would be entertaining!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adam Dixon
adi...@primenet.com
"I hate them not because they hate
us, but because they are incapable of
good, honest, human hatred."
-Inquisitor Agmar on Tyranids
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Leif Eriksson
Ryan Montieth Gill wrote:
>
> Dispite alot of bad feelings there were many people who served in the
> Wermacht that were Old German Imperial Army or Kreigsmarine soldiers
> that had little sympathy with the Nazi party. They were unfortunately
> swept up in the tide of the appeal the Nazis had to the Masses. Poles,
> Swedes, Fins, Austrians, Cechs, Alsacians (sp?), Dutch, and many other
> conquered peopleds were forced into conscript armies. I have one friend
> was sent to the Russian front. Once he returned the French government
> imprisoned him as a trator to France. Sad to be stuck on the border areas
> of two nations that use your region as a buffer zone.
>
Although there were some (don't know how many, but probably quite a few) swedish
volunteers in the Waffen SS. As were there volunteers from the baltic states who
wanted to free their countries from Soviet Union.
> The Waffen SS deserve no tribute by any person. They were a mob of
> brutal, cold blooded murderers.
>
Depends on who you ask. They were an Elite corps, no doubt consisting
both of patriots and fanatics. Many atrocities were committed by all sides
during the second world war. Just remember the golden rule of history:
He who wins, writes the history.
> If I were you I'd use the pre Nazi German Emblems. Black even crosses
> work too.
>
> , : : Actually, it would be nice if you did a bit of research before you
> : plugged swastikas and say that they are symbols of extermination.
> : You'll probably offend some players, but more importantly, an aryan
> : swastika is the symbol for fertility, which the indian nation has also
> : adpoted.
>
> Not to mention the Buddist sign of good luck.
Finland used a blue swastika, reversed compared to the german, as their National
Emblem during WWII, so it wasn't just the nazis. After WWII the swastika has
been associated with Nazis mainly. Some Neo-Nazis in Sweden has begun to adopt
other old Viking Runes, branding them too, as Nazi symbols. It's a pity.
============================================================================
Leif Eriksson, the one and Only Computer Student and Warhammer fanatic
d95...@student.csd.uu.se
http://www.csd.uu.se/~d95lee/ (seduced by the Chocolate side of the Force)
============================================================================
Eric Jimerson
In <4tmtk0$t...@express.ior.com> jble...@pcsedu.com (dartfrog) writes:
>>
>>The Ultimate APDS round belongs to the US Navy.
>>
>>They took an army 280mm shell from the Atomic Cannon, fitted a sabot
>>to it to make it fit for the 16" (that's 415 millimetres )
>
406mm is correct... 203mm (8 in) x2 = 406mm (16in)
Please note that the Iowa-Class battleships were armed with the
"new model" 16 C50 guns, not to be confused with the 16" C45 guns on
the earlier Maryland, North Carolina and South Dakota classes.
> on the USS Iowa, and fired it some 50
>>odd miles. 15 Kt yield.
I was not aware that the Sub-Caliber 16" rounds were nuclear
rounds. I know that the Battleships continued to carry these after
Nuclear Weapons were cleared from USN ships- so I think perhaps they
were not.
The Sabot rounds for the Iowa class came into being to give the
big guns more range. The power of the 16" was far greater than that
required to disable a modern naval vessel, and an 8" round similarly
so. The use of a smaller, lighter shell enabled the gun to shoot
farther- a capability that the guns needed.
>>Sorry, but I don't see the M1 in any mark either shooting accurately
at
>that range,
>>nor surviving a direct hit.
>>
>>Regards, AEB, Canberra, Australia
>>
>>
>>
>Are you suggesting mounting 406mm cannon on Tanks? The discussion was
>on armored vehicles, naval guns are a completely different story. The
>16 inch guns of the Iowa are meant for coastal bombardment.
Actually, they were designed to throw targe heavy armor-piercing
shells at other, primarily Japanese, battleships. Shore Bombardment was
an important, but secondary role.
Its like
>comparing apples and oranges. The only comperable weapons system in
>the US Army are the 203mm M110 SP Howitzers. Unfortunately they have
>been transferres into the reserves. (Replaced with MLRS in active
>units.)
I agree. Battleships and Battletanks are certainly only
minimaly similar- they were both designed to use a large high-velocity
gun(s) to destroy similar armored targets.
But... it usually takes one armor pennetration on a tankto kill
it... a battleship can take several (dozen) and still function. Which
guns are more effective? ;-]
Jagdpanther
Howard Eberly
Thomas Andersson wrote:
>
> >ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
>
> >The Waffen SS deserve no tribute by any person. They were a mob of
> >brutal, cold blooded murderers.
>
> alone, misstake it as Algemeine SS or do you mean SS as a whole??
(as they were before WWII) If you want to talk brutal SS: Toten Kof
Schul Staf (sp?) Toten Kof=Death's Head
Demetrios S Papadopoulos
> without saying.
>
> As for the concept of people sometimes "playing the bad guys." Bad guys
> according to whom? Until you make them so (by use of disgustingly racist
> symbolism) none of the armies in any of the games can be pointed at as not
> having a valid world view. They're all correct in their own eyes, and they
> all hate each other equally.
>
> In that respect, then, I suppose such a hate-filled game would tend to attract
> people who don't mind fascism/hatred/genocide because, after all, c'mon, hey,
> "I'm playing the bad guys..."
>
I am sure both Hitler and the KKK believed their own world view was
valid and correct in their own eyes. According to them, their actions
were not bad.
Thomas Andersson
>Nero fiddled while Joseph R Martinez (mart...@gas.uug.arizona.edu) wrote:
>This is the point, really -- whether you are painting your bad guys as
>Klan members or SS troops, you're playing with symbolism that reaches far
>beyond the scope of the game into a recent history of savage, brutal
>real-life murder. Some people will be offended by the symbolism because
>they're offended by anything that isn't "Politically Correct", but others
>will be offended because they know (and/or are related to people who know)
>what it's like to be hunted by the Klan/SS/whatever.
>Do what you want, just don't be surprised when an elderly Jewish man
>starts cursing at you (for good reason) at the next convention...
Well.. I don't really know about any elderly jewish persons that are that
heavily into Warhammer (40K) that they would go to any convetion. But
IF they do.. why don't take their own Sionist/Israeli gang/army and beat
the hell out of the clan/nazi troops and aveng them self!
Eric Jimerson
In <875.6785T...@kd.qd.se> ste...@kd.qd.se (Thomas Andersson)
writes:
>>ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
>
>>The Waffen SS deserve no tribute by any person. They were a mob of
>>brutal, cold blooded murderers.
>
>Isn't this just a 'tiny' bit over generalised?? Do you coun't Waffen
SS
>alone, misstake it as Algemeine SS or do you mean SS as a whole??
>
Umm.. yeah. The Waffen SS were not _as_ responsible for the
horrible acts in the war. They were, primarily, a military force that
fought the enemy. They were only rarely used in Death Camps or other
'Policing" duties (there were, however, SS Police units).
Jagdpanther
Thomas Andersson
>Listen, if you'd been following this thread like a good little knee-jerker,
>then you would have observed that I said that there's nothing that I can do
>about such people who paint their figs in this way. It's a free country!!!
If there's nothing you can do then why not let it rest.. You seems to be the
only one having a problem with his Kriegers..
>However, I must take issue with being called silly over the fact that I
>_don't like the subtle/benign/APATHETIC attitude taken towards the use of
>powerful racist symbolism. If you had ancestors/family members who were
>killed/burned/tortured by the Klan or Nazis, I don't think you give two s**ts
> that the idiot fielding this army is "playing the bad guys." That seems to
>go without saying.
Well.. I think you're overreacting.. as long as people hate/fear adn make
such fuss about nazi/other like sumbols the will retain their power as a
source for new interest in their ideas.. By over use in various ways for non-
realted things they lose their inherent power.. and thus the connected ideas
is forgotten.. so instead of demoting you should be promoting their usage..
>As for the concept of people sometimes "playing the bad guys." Bad guys
>according to whom? Until you make them so (by use of disgustingly racist
>symbolism) none of the armies in any of the games can be pointed at as not
>having a valid world view. They're all correct in their own eyes, and they
>all hate each other equally.
So now they aren't bad guys? Nazis are the good guys? -> :)
>In that respect, then, I suppose such a hate-filled game would tend to
>attract people who don't mind fascism/hatred/genocide because, after all,
>c'mon, hey, "I'm playing the bad guys..."
If they where pro they would be saying.. "but hey.. we are the GOOD guys!"
Isn't just stating that they play the Bad guys a confirmations of the fact
that they don't support the underlying ideas?
>The point is: THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED TO THE
>PROPAGATION OF RACE-HATE.
Well.. 40K is mostly about war between the races (and pure hate for some of
them)...
Thomas Andersson
>On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Isaac Tobin wrote:
>When you paint up a group of models in Nazi regalia, or a group of
>redemptionists as clan members, you give the ideas that lie behind them a
>benign approval. Its not subtle, because when I see the swastika, no
>matter whether its in a different context or not, I am reminded of the
>Nazis and their actions. By painting up models that resemble these
>groups, you are trying to bring a certain set of thoughts into the
>viewers mind. Now, whether you believe in those principles or not, you
>are promoting their existence. This can be seen as approval. I don't
>think most people are trying to actively promote the ideas, so I think
>its a benign approval that those people are giving. But nevertheless,
>the ideas are there and should not be promoted. Granted, its a free
>country and there are no thought police with any power yet, so do what
>you want, just realize that some people will be offended.
Well.. to avoid offending any and all at every timeis impossible..
And the ide (probably) of using the symbols, that bring the viewers
thought to certain ideas and pictures, are just that.. to bestove
that particular image on the viewer. The meaning is to show that these
are the 'bad boys' and nothing else.. I have absolutely no problem with
this.. If you are so sensitive about useage of imagery and 'hidden' ideas
you should have a very hard time playing RPG/Strategy games since the often
revolve round killing and hunting down animals and unworthy beeings
(subhumans as well as aliens).
dartfrog
In article <4tnta6$b...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, jgp...@ix.netcom.com
says...
The destruction of enemy warships was the primary mission back in
1943-45. The Iowa class ships have only seen action since then in the
shore bombardment role (Korea, Viet Nam, Beirut, Kuwait/Iraq) The
Saboted rounds were not meant for Anti-shipping purposes. They were to
enhance the ships' over the horizon fire support role.
>
>
>
> Its like
>>comparing apples and oranges. The only comperable weapons system in
>>the US Army are the 203mm M110 SP Howitzers. Unfortunately they have
>>been transferres into the reserves. (Replaced with MLRS in active
>>units.)
>
>
> I agree. Battleships and Battletanks are certainly only
>minimaly similar- they were both designed to use a large high-velocity
>gun(s) to destroy similar armored targets.
> But... it usually takes one armor pennetration on a tankto
kill
>it... a battleship can take several (dozen) and still function. Which
>guns are more effective? ;-]
effective or efficient? You're still comparing direct/indirect fire
weapons.
-DF
>
> Jagdpanther
dartfrog
In article <4tl3mq$3i...@red.interact.net.au>, aeb...@dynamite.com.au
says...
>
>jble...@pcsedu.com (dartfrog) wrote:
>
>>Sorry, but my M1A1HA W/APFSDSDU-T rounds can kill anything on the
modern
>>battlefield. My personage is protected by one of the best armored
tanks
>>in the world. I think you we're referring to the T-80 and while its
>>nice, it's still essential a medium tank, not an MBT.
>>
>> -2LTDF
>
>Much as the M-1A2 or M1-A1HA is well protected, the Armour Piercing Fin
Stabilised
>Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium - Tracer rounds ( but we shouldn't
discuss Mark
>numbers on an open line ) are by no means the last word in APDS
technology.
>
>
>They took an army 280mm shell from the Atomic Cannon, fitted a sabot to
it to make
>it fit for the 16" (that's 415 millimetres )
406mm according to Jane's / Harpoon.
on the USS Iowa, and fired it some 50
>odd miles. 15 Kt yield.
>
>Sorry, but I don't see the M1 in any mark either shooting accurately at
that range,
>nor surviving a direct hit.
>
>Regards, AEB, Canberra, Australia
>
>
>
Are you suggesting mounting 406mm cannon on Tanks? The discussion was
on armored vehicles, naval guns are a completely different story. The
16 inch guns of the Iowa are meant for coastal bombardment. Its like
comparing apples and oranges. The only comperable weapons system in
the US Army are the 203mm M110 SP Howitzers. Unfortunately they have
been transferres into the reserves. (Replaced with MLRS in active
units.)
I would say, however, that the M1 probably retains a higher 1st Round
kill probability with its 120mm. (The Iowa-class relies on an RPV for
its over the horizon gunnery.)....Unless you're referring to Nukes,
where again, your comparing penguins and parsnips.
I still consider the M1A1 Common to be the best tank out there. You can
keep the A2....
-Dartfrog
There are two other problems: The saboted 406mm rounds were in the
prototype stage and the Iowa class battleships are in mothballs.
Brian F. King
> >Joseph R Martinez wrote:
> >> When you paint up a group of models in Nazi regalia, or a group of
> >> redemptionists as clan members, you give the ideas that lie behind them
> >> a benign approval. Its not subtle, because when I see the swastika, no
> >> matter whether its in a different context or not, I am reminded of the
> >> Nazis and their actions. By painting up models that resemble these
> >> groups, you are trying to bring a certain set of thoughts into the
> >> viewers mind. Now, whether you believe in those principles or not, you
> >> are promoting their existence. This can be seen as approval. I don't
> >> think most people are trying to actively promote the ideas, so I think
> >> its a benign approval that those people are giving. But nevertheless,
> >> the ideas are there and should not be promoted. Granted, its a free
> >> country and there are no thought police with any power yet, so do what
> >> you want, just realize that some people will be offended.
> Brian F. King wrote:
> >So I suppose we should all paint up the zealots (who purge the heretics
> >with fire and bullets) in Pope hats in order to spread Christianity?
> >Perfect symbolism, if you ask me...
> >God, you guys are silly.
> >I'm surprised you haven't joined with the groups trying to ban D&D because
> >"there's demons in them thar books"... Oooooppsss, there's daemons in 40K,
> >too! Can't play that army - gives 'benign approval' to Satan himself!
> >The Eldar (elves/fay) are spreading that heathen type Celtic religion....
> >The marines remind me of the Inquisition and the Crusades...
> >I guess the only army I can play is tyranids... until someone comes up
> >with something they don't like about that...
Voltron LePew wrote:
> Listen, if you'd been following this thread like a good little knee-jerker,
> then you would have observed that I said that there's nothing that I can do
> about such people who paint their figs in this way. It's a free country!!!
Unless you changed both names and universities, "Voltron", I never said one
bloody thing about YOU.
I posted a reply to Joseph in Arizona, not Voltron in Ohio...
Must be a guilty conscience. Or a knee-jerk response, huh?
> However, I must take issue with being called silly over the fact that I
> _don't like the subtle/benign/APATHETIC attitude taken towards the use of
> powerful racist symbolism. If you had ancestors/family members who were
> killed/burned/tortured by the Klan or Nazis, I don't think you give two
> s**ts that the idiot fielding this army is "playing the bad guys." That
> seems to go without saying.
Would it help if I told you my grandfather's name was Wilhelm Koenig?
Could that be a GERMAN name?
Oops, the knee-jerk thing again.
[Or is your knee even involved?]
> As for the concept of people sometimes "playing the bad guys." Bad guys
> according to whom? Until you make them so (by use of disgustingly racist
> symbolism) none of the armies in any of the games can be pointed at as not
> having a valid world view.
Nope, no bad guys whatsoever.
Just because those Chaos-type guys want the universe to fall into a state of
decay/decadence/war doesn't mean they are EVIL.
Those are admirable goals, from their own viewpoint.
> They're all correct in their own eyes, and they all hate each other
> equally.
Just like the Palestinians and Israelis?
The Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland?
Yep, Nothing wrong on either side.
Admirable goals, from their own viewpoint.
[And I'm sure the Unabomber had goodness in his heart as well.]
> In that respect, then, I suppose such a hate-filled game would tend to
> attract people who don't mind fascism/hatred/genocide because, after all,
> c'mon, hey, "I'm playing the bad guys..."
Just curious; especially in D&D...
Isn't the goal normally "Good triumphs over evil"?
How can this occur if the GM doesn't play "EVIL"?
If the 'bad guy' is just a misunderstood sot, where's the "victory"?
The more 'evil' the enemy, the greater the triumph when it is deafeated, no?
So if my army is symbolized by some of the greatest evil we have known,
doesn't that mean that beating it is a major victory?
> The point is: THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED TO THE
> PROPAGATION OF RACE-HATE.
I fail to see how this is a propogation of race-hate.
Because a given lump of lead is painted to look like a Nazi must mean I
believe and espouse the ideals of Naziism?
Such a narrow-minded viewpoint.
I guess we also shouldn't play any of the Avalon hill games retelling the
battles of WWI and WWII, hmm? Well, at least no one should play the
Germans... Who knows,someone might get the wrong idea...
Thomas Andersson
>>>The Waffen SS deserve no tribute by any person. They were a mob of
>>>brutal, cold blooded murderers.
>>
>>Isn't this just a 'tiny' bit over generalised?? Do you coun't Waffen
>SS
>>alone, misstake it as Algemeine SS or do you mean SS as a whole??
> Umm.. yeah. The Waffen SS were not _as_ responsible for the
>horrible acts in the war. They were, primarily, a military force that
>fought the enemy. They were only rarely used in Death Camps or other
>'Policing" duties (there were, however, SS Police units).
I know that, and the generalisations that many people make are dangerous..
Carter Eberly
Thomas Andersson wrote:
>
> >Thomas Andersson wrote:
>
> >> >Bigger!?!?! I thought that K.T.'s were the biggest things ever put out by
> >> >Germany
> >>
> >> Well.. the germna Maus would probably have been the biggest if there
> >> ever had been more than 2 of them... That's a BIG motha!!
>
> >How Big Was It?
>
> I have a book about it, but unfortunately a friend have borrowed from me
> atm.. I'll come back in a few days with a answer for you..
>
Great Punchline! ;) (BTW, whats the name of the book?)
Moiner
In article <31FF83...@ncinter.net>, "Brian F. King"
<bri...@ncinter.net> wrote:
>> >Joseph R Martinez wrote:
>> However, I must take issue with being called silly over the fact that I
>> _don't like the subtle/benign/APATHETIC attitude taken towards the use of
>> powerful racist symbolism. If you had ancestors/family members who were
>> killed/burned/tortured by the Klan or Nazis, I don't think you give two
>> s**ts that the idiot fielding this army is "playing the bad guys." That
>> seems to go without saying.
>
>Would it help if I told you my grandfather's name was Wilhelm Koenig?
>Could that be a GERMAN name?
Probably; OTOH, the only person I ever knew named Bill Koenig was
Jewish, so it gets still more complicated.
I just don't get why you're expending so much effort to defend some
despicable little troll who wants to play with Nazi Marines, and drags
out badly composed German in order to do so.
--
Moiner
"nobody knows everything, SO use everything you know!"
Thomas Andersson
>> >brutal, cold blooded murderers.
>>
>> Isn't this just a 'tiny' bit over generalised?? Do you coun't Waffen SS
>> alone, misstake it as Algemeine SS or do you mean SS as a whole??
>SS=Gestapo=German Police Nowadays they are no longer Nazis but police
>(as they were before WWII) If you want to talk brutal SS: Toten Kof
>Schul Staf (sp?) Toten Kof=Death's Head
What the F* are you talking about?? SS != Gestapo, Gestapo = Geheime Staats
Politzei, the secret (civilian and partybound ) police. In addition to the
Gestapo there where the regular Police. Gestapo have NOTHING to do with
pre/post WWII german police.. (military intelligience = Abwehr, party
intelligience = Sicherheitsdienst
"SS: Toten Kof Schul Staf" ??? What are you trying to say?? If you mean the
full name of SS it's Schutzstaffel (as it orginated as Hitlers personal
bodyguard).
ASMODAI
: >The Waffen SS deserve no tribute by any person. They were a mob of
: >brutal, cold blooded murderers.
: Isn't this just a 'tiny' bit over generalised?? Do you coun't Waffen SS
: alone, misstake it as Algemeine SS or do you mean SS as a whole??
I didn't say that, though I agree with it.
Some of the recruiting policies required for applicants to have gone
through brain-washing Nazi youth academies, and turned them all into
merciless and remoreseless killers. These units along with Russian units
is what made the Russian front wars some of the most horrifying battles
of all time.
: --
: +--------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
: | Thomas Andersson, AKA <steiner> | ______ |
: +--------------------------------------------------------+ |\ |
--
Bub
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~sd_fort
" I realy *realy* hate John Tesh "
ASMODAI
Thomas Andersson (ste...@kd.qd.se) wrote:
: If there's nothing you can do then why not let it rest.. You seems to be the
: only one having a problem with his Kriegers..
I don't understand the motivation, nor the interest that anybody else
would have in his idea.
: Well.. I think you're overreacting.. as long as people hate/fear adn make
: such fuss about nazi/other like sumbols the will retain their power as a
: source for new interest in their ideas.. By over use in various ways for non-
: realted things they lose their inherent power.. and thus the connected ideas
: is forgotten.. so instead of demoting you should be promoting their usage..
Yeah..... right.
: So now they aren't bad guys? Nazis are the good guys? -> :)
According to them, yes.
Otherwise, no.
: >The point is: THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED TO THE
: >PROPAGATION OF RACE-HATE.
: Well.. 40K is mostly about war between the races (and pure hate for some of
: them)...
Then again, 40K is :
a) NOT REALITY !
b) A GAME !
Something which seems to escape many people as of late (including myself :)
: | Thomas Andersson, AKA <steiner> | ______ |
--
Eric Jimerson
In <4tomg4$7...@express.ior.com> jble...@pcsedu.com (dartfrog) writes:
>>
>>>Are you suggesting mounting 406mm cannon on Tanks? The discussion
>was
>>>on armored vehicles, naval guns are a completely different story.
>The
>>>16 inch guns of the Iowa are meant for coastal bombardment.
>>
>>
>>shells at other, primarily Japanese, battleships. Shore Bombardment
>>>was an important, but secondary role.
>
>The destruction of enemy warships was the primary mission back in
>1943-45. The Iowa class ships have only seen action since then in the
>shore bombardment role (Korea, Viet Nam, Beirut, Kuwait/Iraq) The
>Saboted rounds were not meant for Anti-shipping purposes. They were
>to enhance the ships' over the horizon fire support role.
The guns are meant NOW for costal bombardment. The guns were
originaly meant to kill ships. Kinda like saying the primary puropose
of a P-51 is to be a museum piece...
Aagin, I have not seen any refrence to the 16" sabot round
having any explosive capability, and certanly not a nuclear one. Do you
have a specific reference you are using?
OTH fire support? Umm.. lesse... 16" HE rounds have an
effetcive range of what- 44000yds or so? This is already Beyond Visual
Distance. The guns can already shoot farther than the ship can see-
what added capability is there in extending this range, but losing a
HUGE amount of payload? Naval Gunfire on a non-moving target is always
fairly effective, even before the advent of radar fire control. I have
also read then the sabot rounds have a laser-guided capability, using
a mmast-mounted director.
Also consider that if the USN wants to use the BBs for OTH fire
support, they do carry Tomohawks.
>
>>
>>
>> Its like
>>>comparing apples and oranges. The only comperable weapons system in
>>>the US Army are the 203mm M110 SP Howitzers. Unfortunately they
have
>>>been transferres into the reserves. (Replaced with MLRS in active
>>>units.)
>>
>>
>> I agree. Battleships and Battletanks are certainly only
>>minimaly similar- they were both designed to use a large
high-velocity
>>gun(s) to destroy similar armored targets.
>> But... it usually takes one armor pennetration on a tankto
>kill
>>it... a battleship can take several (dozen) and still function. Which
>>guns are more effective? ;-]
>
>
>effective or efficient? You're still comparing direct/indirect fire
>weapons.
Not really. The vast majority of naval gun engagements are
within visual range, where the gun is sighted directly at the target.
While the tube might be at maximum alevation, and the shell might
impact at a high angle, it is still Direct Fire.
I think the reason for the disparity of effectiveness might be
that a BB weighs a lot more in comaprison to the impacting shell than a
MBT (but I havent done the math). They are also far more structuraly
sound than a tank, and have DC parties that can fix things. Of course,
a lucky shot (ala the HMS Hood) wil ruin your day.
Jagdpanther
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Eric Jimerson
In <31FFAF...@richmond.infi.net> Howard Eberly
<ebe...@richmond.infi.net> writes:
>Thomas Andersson wrote:
>>
>> >ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
>>
>> >The Waffen SS deserve no tribute by any person. They were a mob of
>> >brutal, cold blooded murderers.
>>
>> Isn't this just a 'tiny' bit over generalised?? Do you coun't Waffen
SS
>> alone, misstake it as Algemeine SS or do you mean SS as a whole??
>(as they were before WWII) If you want to talk brutal SS: Toten Kof
>Schul Staf (sp?) Toten Kof=Death's Head
The "Deaths Head" was the symbol used on some SS uniforms.
Brutal? Well, suppose that depends on who it was on, yes? SS medics
(who also wore the Deaths Head) were known to treat allied soldiers
just as well as their German companions.
"Totenkopf" was the name given to the 3. SS Panzer division. It
was one of the best Panzer divisions around, and was used extensively
(as were most SS Panzer and Panzergrenadier units). Brutal? Depends on
if you were fighting them on a particular day...
Most Waffen SS units were elite well equpiied front-line units.
The Waffen SS was not used primarily for extermination, but front-line
fighting. This does not mean Waffen SS units were angels- I'm sure that
many atrocities were committed byt them- but no more than _any other
combat unit_.
Jagdpanther
Brian F. King
Sorry to interrupt, but what would the caliber and/or yield be on
A bolter round?
A heavy bolter round?
An autocannon round?
A battlecannon round?
An earthshaker round?
And, YES I am being serious - what do you feel would be the modern day
equivalents or 40K weaponry and vehicles? Some appear obvious; others, not
so...
At least this way, we can sort of drift back to RGMW topics...
[Not that I mind the current discussion...
It's just that it doesn't apply to my Leman Russ... :-) ]
Eric Jimerson wrote:
>
> <Big snippage on ammo discussion>
Brian F. King
Moiner wrote:
>
> I just don't get why you're expending so much effort to defend some
> despicable little troll who wants to play with Nazi Marines, and drags
> out badly composed German in order to do so.
I'm not necessarily defending HIM [For all I know, he really could be an
evil racist pig; then again, maybe not...].
What I'm defending the fact that it's his choice and he made it.
Sure, his post was flame bait, and he probably DESERVED getting attacked, but
still...IMHO, there's no need to get up on a pedestal and start preaching
about the evils of painting miniatures...
I mean, seriously - what if it was a historical miniatures game instead of
40K. Would there be a problem then? Would painting and fielding a German
army be 'the root of all racial hatred'? Poppycock! It's a hunk of lead and
a GAME. I just think that certain people must differentiate between fantasy
and reality...
dartfrog
I think this discussion is ready to move to Sci.military.moderated.
> The guns are meant NOW for costal bombardment. The guns
were
>originaly meant to kill ships. Kinda like saying the primary puropose
>of a P-51 is to be a museum piece...
Correct, however, the Saboted rounds were designed in the mid-80's,
when the primary role of the old battlewagons had already changed.
> Aagin, I have not seen any refrence to the 16" sabot round
>having any explosive capability, and certanly not a nuclear one. Do
you
>have a specific reference you are using?
I can't recall the article right now (I'll have to search for it.). It
was a navy journal available at the Armor Library at Ft. KNox. Inside
it detailed some of the proposed changes/modifications to take the Iowa
class into the 21st Century. (One of these plans called for the
removal of the aft turret and replacing it with a wrap-around flight
deck for operating AV-8Bs and a 400 cell VLS!)
> OTH fire support? Umm.. lesse... 16" HE rounds have an
>effetcive range of what- 44000yds or so? This is already Beyond Visual
>Distance. The guns can already shoot farther than the ship can see-
>what added capability is there in extending this range, but losing a
>HUGE amount of payload? Naval Gunfire on a non-moving target is always
>fairly effective, even before the advent of radar fire control. I have
>also read then the sabot rounds have a laser-guided capability, using
>a mmast-mounted director.
Correct they do have an already excellant OTH range, however, by
doubling the effective range with the Saboted rounds you can attack
targets much farther inland. This allows you to destroy targets that
would require air-strikes/missile attacks to neutralize otherwise.
>
> Also consider that if the USN wants to use the BBs for OTH
fire
>support, they do carry Tomohawks.
And those missiles are terribly expensive. It is much more cost
effective to destroy a target that is only 60km inland with a cannon
shell, than a super-expensive missile.
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
> Not really. The vast majority of naval gun engagements are
>within visual range, where the gun is sighted directly at the target.
>While the tube might be at maximum alevation, and the shell might
>impact at a high angle, it is still Direct Fire.
The possibility of an Iowa class being in a naval gun engagement is
highly unlikely, however. The opposing ships would have to transit
through the SAGs picket ship, avoiding missiles the whole way.
Navel combat today is performed by missiles, aircraft and submarines.
-Dartfrog
Avatar
Rick Rutherford (ri...@ss1.digex.net) wrote:
: This is the point, really -- whether you are painting your bad guys as
: Klan members or SS troops, you're playing with symbolism that reaches far
: beyond the scope of the game into a recent history of savage, brutal
: real-life murder. Some people will be offended by the symbolism because
: they're offended by anything that isn't "Politically Correct", but others
: will be offended because they know (and/or are related to people who know)
: what it's like to be hunted by the Klan/SS/whatever.
I'm sorry, but when people can cry at the holocaust museum and then ignore
the horrors that were occurring in Bosnia a while back at the same time,
it shows that harping on symbols means nothing, because people are not
learning what they need to from such tragic incidents. People are still
so strongly living in the past on such issues that they are doing next to
nothing to prevent them from occurring again in the world. People only
remember what they want to remember when it is convenient for them to
remember it. That is the sad state of affairs on this issue.
To those who get offended by a 2" tall piece of pewter painted with a
white robe need to reevaluate the way the look at the world. If you seek
hatred and racism and discrimination in everything you will find it, not
because it is there, mind you, but because you need to find it so your
perception is clouded in the search. Even the simplest and clearest
message can be perverted to actually be spouting some evil thought. Such
is the way of the world, unfortunately. I for one will not proscribe to
such nonsense, though. If someone brings out a mini with a banner that
has a swastica on it, I will evaluate it for what it is: a miniature
painted for a silly wargame. Getting offended by nazi representation in
warhammer could be taken to an even sillier level to prohibit the painting
of minis used in historical wargaming ("Oh no those panzer mk IVs make me
think of the nazis. You'd better repaint them!!"). It just gets
ridiculous. Now spray painting swasticas and racial epiteths on buildings
is a totally different story and tends to be meant to insult and inspire
fear.
When looking at the history of the world, the reign of power of the Third
Reich lasted less than 20 years. That is almost nothing historically
speaking. Far greater atrocities than those perpetrated in europe during
the second war were recorded. One of my personal favs in the history
books was the crusades. European knights attacked the moors to free holy
lands that they had never visited, but that were populated by the moors.
The moors were considered savages and heretics, so it was considered OK to
kill them because it was a religious quest. That concept was hardly
divinely inspired or supported. So I guess we better stop using the
Empire armies in WFB, since they show the evil side of middle ages.
Let's face it. No aspect of the Warhammer games would survive a
thoroughly close PC inspection, because every aspect could be linked to
some bad point in the history of the world. Warfare itself is the worst
part. If we're going to nitpick, we may as well not play since playing
the game condones the evils of warfare whether we admit it or not.....
Let's just get a grip and remember that we are playing a game.....Geesh!!
: Do what you want, just don't be surprised when an elderly Jewish man
: starts cursing at you (for good reason) at the next convention...
:
Hmmmmm....When was the last time that anyone saw an elderly man of any
religion or race at a Games day convention??? I thought the average age
of players was always dropping.......;)
Avatar
dartfrog
In article <3200DD...@ncinter.net>, bri...@ncinter.net says...
>
>Sorry to interrupt, but what would the caliber and/or yield be on
>
>A bolter round?
4.7mm caseless? (G-11)
>A heavy bolter round?
Larger caliber caseless round.
>An autocannon round?
30mm chaingun/25 mm Bushmaster
>A battlecannon round?
145mm HESH
>An earthshaker round?
203mm HE Quick
Just a guess
Dartfrog
Thomas Andersson
>: >ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
>: >The Waffen SS deserve no tribute by any person. They were a mob of
>: >brutal, cold blooded murderers.
>: Isn't this just a 'tiny' bit over generalised?? Do you coun't Waffen SS
>: alone, misstake it as Algemeine SS or do you mean SS as a whole??
>I didn't say that, though I agree with it.
>Some of the recruiting policies required for applicants to have gone
>through brain-washing Nazi youth academies, and turned them all into
Pre war that was true.. not during the war though... The longer the war
lasted, the lower the requirement became. At the end theer wasn't any real
political difference between the arms, just a logistical one. What differed
was that the Waffen SS always got the best equipment available and they were
the only ones that could get anything near to sufficent replenishment..
>merciless and remoreseless killers. These units along with Russian units
>is what made the Russian front wars some of the most horrifying battles
>of all time.
Well.. the front did strange things to men.. In the SS case they didn't really
have any option to fighgt since they would be mericlessly killed on sight by
russian troups..
--
+--------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
| Thomas Andersson, AKA <steiner> | ______ |
Eric Jimerson
In <3200DD...@ncinter.net> "Brian F. King" <bri...@ncinter.net>
writes:
>
>Sorry to interrupt, but what would the caliber and/or yield be on
>
>A bolter round?
12gau exploding shotgun slug.
>A heavy bolter round?
8gau, same as above
>An autocannon round?
20mm/25mm AP
>A battlecannon round?
155mm Howitzer firing HESH.
>An earthshaker round?
203mm/240mm gun firing HE.
> Jagdpanther
Caledor1st
In article <fruedele.4...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
frue...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Voltron LePew) writes:
>However, I must take issue with being called silly over the fact that I
>_don't
>like the subtle/benign/APATHETIC attitude taken towards the use of
powerful
>racist symbolism. If you had ancestors/family members who were
>killed/burned/tortured by the Klan or Nazis, I don't think you give two
s**ts
>
>that the idiot fielding this army is "playing the bad guys." That seems
to
>go
>without saying.
That's funny, I'm part german, and many of my kine were destroyed by the
Nazi party. After WWII, many germans who had lived in Hungry, and other
countries, were sent back to their countries only to be slaughtered.
Many countries did not want theri germans back and killed them. Go ahead,
look in the history books. You'll be hard pressed to find this
information. History has nearly forgotten, but I havn't.
I do give two shits (Look Ma! No sensors!). I'm not going to say that we
should forget about it, or try to hide it. By just reading about
swasticas I am looking through a window into the past. I may not like it,
but I'm shure as hell not going to say that I shouldn't see the truth.
Only by facing the fears, ideologies, and symbols of our modern culture
can we look back and see what went wrong. Trying to banish the past from
our minds makes all of what the Nazis did alright. If we forget, then we
are commiting a greater crime then they did, we are killing all those
people for nothing. All those lives were lost for a reason, and if you
want to forget them then go ahead.
I'd rather give to shits and hope to god that noone ever forgets...
Asuryan
(Great God of Memory...)
Caledor1st
In article <31FE12...@ncinter.net>, "Brian F. King"
<bri...@ncinter.net> writes:
>I'm surprised you haven't joined with the groups trying to ban D&D
because
>"there's demons in them thar books"... Oooooppsss, there's daemons in
40K,
>too! Can't play that army - gives 'benign approval' to Satan himself!
Yeh, it's a good thing the 700 Club isn't very succesful anymore. They
would shut AD&D, Warhammer, and Vampire down, and those are my three
favorite games! 'Benign approval' doesn't mean much in my book. I've
heard people put down my third favorite game (Magic: the Gathering) wilst
I was playing a White deck because 'I was playing with the devils cards'.
I've played many games and watched many movies, and I don't think any of
it has perverted my mind. Games like Vampire deal very tightly with Evil
and Good, but I think playing that game in particular, makes you more
human, and more enlightened. If Vampire is about anything, it is that
evil and good should each have their places. The basic game promotes being
good and sustaining your humanity. Maybe it benignly promotes evil, but
it also clearly promotes humanity: it pretty much puts things in their
places.
Now, in 40k (or WHFB) the roles are different, prehaps more realistic.
Humanty's greatest threat is that which it creates: Choas. So, maybe the
Tyranids are the good guys. Short of letting its self be consumed by
chaos or the Tyranids, humanity has few options. In a dying, stagnating
universe, they must struggle to survive. In a sense, humans (and other
mortals) are littering the universe with their mental rubish. There are
no "Good Guys". I know that this is what attracted me to this game. The
battle for survival may seem lost, but humanity roles forward, ignorent of
their doings and struggling for a place among the stars. The depressing
atmosphere lets a crack of light through the veil in the form of feint
hope. That hope is the only 'benignly promoted' thing in 40K. The
daemons are not evil, humanity is not evil, the Orks are not evil. They
are all just factors in an epic, cosmic game.
Swasticas and KKK members are not the point of the game, but who is to say
they do not exist. All things are part of this chessgame of the gods. We
shouldn't say what is right or wrong in the 40k universe.
From the gamer's point of view it can be looked at in three ways:
1. Anyone putting Swasticas on their troops should take resposibiliaty
for his or her actions, and it should be understood among other gamers
that he is just playing the part. People outside of this genre may not
understand it, so if they are repulsed by the idea, it's the player who
shows symbolism that is not generally accepted that should take
responsibiliaty.
2. Some people don't understand what they are doing. They think it's
cool and are ignorant to the real issue. Don't talk to them if you don't
want to. At some point they will have to take responsibiliaty for their
actions. If you feel like putting pornographic pictures on your banners,
go ahead, just don't be suprised when someone is uncomfortable with your
actions.
3. It's just a game. Sometimes you look at a symbol...say "Heh, they
were murderous killers...why can't my marines be the same?"...then you put
the symbol on all your marines. If asked about your choice of symbolism
you say," It's just a game, if you can't take it, go away". Note that I
donnot promote ignorence in saying this (that's #2). This is merely
saying: get over it...it's a game.
I should also note that we cannot deny what has happened or that bad
things happen. If we are blind to history, then we are fated to repeat
it. Maybe Swasticas offend you, but this serves a good in the end. By
seeing the results of our actions we are reminded of who we are, when we
are, and where we are. Good and Evil are both part of the human persona
and we cannot hide from our inner beast, only accept it and attempt to
restrain it. By seeing what it has done, we look at a mirror of
ourselves, and seek to avoid letting the fangs of evil overcome us once
again.
Asuryan
(Great God of Many Games...)
Chrome Barbarian
>Thomas Andersson wrote:
>>
>> >Thomas Andersson wrote:
>>
>> >> >Bigger!?!?! I thought that K.T.'s were the biggest things ever put out by
>> >> >Germany
>> >>
>> >> Well.. the germna Maus would probably have been the biggest if there
>> >> ever had been more than 2 of them... That's a BIG motha!!
>>
>> >Altogether Now:
>> >How Big Was It?
The Maus was supposed to be @ 185 tons, mounting a 128mm gun.
It's competitor, the E-100, was supposed to be @ 135 tons, mounting a
150mm or 170mm gun. Niether of the prototypes was very successful, due
to the sheer weight; suspension and engine problems plauged both. The
prototypes were destroyed as the Russians closed in.
Or at least, that's what I remember from my copy of 'Military
Vehicles of the World' (i believe it's by Ian Hogg, but i could be
wrong on both the title and author). The book was published about
1980.
Chrome Barbarian.
Caledor1st
In article <4t81m1$n...@news3.digex.net>, ri...@ss1.digex.net (Rick
Rutherford) writes:
>Actually, the Imperial Guard are more like Russians in space than
>anything else -- lots of troops, commissars, and LOTS of artillery
>(an essential element of Soviet military doctrine from WWII - present).
Good point! If you want Germans, get Orks! The Storm Boyz are even
decked out in WWII German outfits. As I've said before, the battle of
Armegeddon is really WWII. There are Orks (Germans) in the middle,
invading two magor Imperial (Russian) cities on the eastern front!
Asuryan
(Great God of the Russians...)
Avatar
ASMODAI (sd_...@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
:
: I didn't say that, though I agree with it.
: through brain-washing Nazi youth academies, and turned them all into
: of all time.
The SS were not merciless or remorseless killers. The reasons the
conflicts they were invovled in were so nasty was because they were the
elite of the elite and were expected to push as hard as possible. They
were there to set an example for the regular army and thus had a higher
casualty rate in their units and divisions. They were the fanatical arm
of the army that was not going to even consider retreat. That is why the
battles they fought in were so harsh. It really had nothing to do with
some kind of murderous intent. Besides, everyone in war has to pushed to
remove remorse from their brains while on the battle field or they will
end up dead, because there just isn't enough time to have the luxury to be
upset about each individual that you had to kill. This is why people
still have mental scars from being invovled in wars. It is not easy to go
fro a normal existence to one of shooting at an enemy with the intent to
kill them. That is a big leap for most anyone (of course there are those
who would actually enjoy that change, but this discussion is not about
them....).
Avatar
Avatar
The Joker (hand...@msn.com) wrote:
: Oi vey! Yikes, and any other forms of surprise you might come up
: with. Your speech of looking back on the Holocaust, etc., etc. was
: well spoken but there are a few things wrong with it....
: 1) In modern day history and current situations, nothing, and I mean
: NOTHING has come close to the holocaust (not even Bosnia). And just
: because I believe in that doesn't mean I think less of the Bosnia and
: other genocidical wars. But when you start to amuse yourself with
: converting minis so they look like a hate group, I feel like
: introducing you to genocide. I am not Jewish, nor have I ever been
: persecuted by the Klan, but I do believe that you have to be mean
: spirited to make light of such a serious issue.
I'm assuming that you are refering to my post on the holocaust and Bosnia,
so I will rebut your rebuttal. I did NOT make light of the holocaust in
anyway. I merely stated a simple fact that a lot of people that get upset
and panic when they see a swastica anywhere, have not done much of
anything to POSITIVELY affect the world around them to solve the issues
that such symbolism represents. I have never converted minis to look like
hate groups, nor do I intend to. I do have an african-american friend who
is currently painting a redemtionist gang to look like the KKK, so what is
the problem?? The problem comes in when people cannot look beyond the
surface of ANY issue and immediately assume the worst in people because of
a symbol that has existed before it was used by some hate group.
The point to my post was that: Instead of whining that some idiot painted
swasticas on his space marine miniatures, do something useful. Get
invovled in groups that promote racial peace, and acceptance of others.
Don't preach with a holier than thou attitude just because yout hink
you're better because you wouldn't paint swasticas on your minis. This is
a serious issue of perception and stupdity that is rampant in the world.
As long as you beleive that nothing worse than the holocaust has ever
happened in the history of the world, you will be oblivious to other
serious problems, just because they don't quite reach that magnitude. The
problem with the holocaust is that people are not LEARNING from it. The
nazis got into power because people did nothing to stop them BEFORE it was
too late. Yet today, the propensity in such situations is to still sit
back and watch as innocent people are killed daily, because of some
group's desires for expanded territory or total control of a country.
: 2) It has almost nothing to do with 40k.
:
And that was the point of the post. 40k is a game. It is not reality,
and it is stupid to preach at someone because they painted a nazi space
marine chapter. If you take a look at what the imperium has done
throughout its history in 40k, those colors are not really all that out of
place. The imperium is very racist, hunts down mutants and sacrifices
those with psychic powers that cannot be trusted to the emperor to keep
his mind alive thousands more years. That imperium certainly is made up
of nice guys........If I actually sat down and maintained the attitude
that some of the individuals in this thread had about racism and hatred
just because of a swastica on a mini, I would not play the 40k game at
all, because such a stance is hypocritical. Someone easily playing a
space marine army representing a very controlling neofascist military
state that regularly destroys the entire populations of planets because of
a handful of chaos cultists on the planet, who then spouts how someone
supports hatred because of painting a swasitica or using a gang that looks
like the KKK in necromunda, needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
In the real world I am well aware of racism and hatred that are rampant in
the world and I do what I personally can to not promote such attitudes and
to treat all people with respect. The way I see it is that anyone who is
painting an army of 40k minis with swasticas is trying desperately to get
attention (most likely) or just has enough courage to not let the closed
mindedness of others keep them from representing an army in any way they
choose. If all people concern themselves with are the symbols of the hate
groups that they despise, they will lose sight of WHY those groups should
be disliked. Those people see a symbol and tend to become just as
repressive and hateful as the groups they consider themselves to better
than. That is what offends me on this issue. Violence begets violence
and hate begets hate. That is why such a vicious cycle has to stop and if
the main hate groups do not stop it, then it is time for those who are
supposedly better to stop it......
I think this will be the last post I will make on the subject to this
newsgroup, because this is something better talked about in e-mail. So if
you wish to continue this discussion please e-mail me....;)
Avatar
Voltron LePew
In article <4tqu89$k...@netaxs.com> ava...@netaxs.com (Avatar) writes:
>Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netaxs.com!not-for-mail
>From: ava...@netaxs.com (Avatar)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer
>Subject: Re: [40K] My Nazi space marines...
>Date: 1 Aug 1996 18:49:45 GMT
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>Rick Rutherford (ri...@ss1.digex.net) wrote:
>: This is the point, really -- whether you are painting your bad guys as
>: Klan members or SS troops, you're playing with symbolism that reaches far
>: beyond the scope of the game into a recent history of savage, brutal
>: real-life murder. Some people will be offended by the symbolism because
>: they're offended by anything that isn't "Politically Correct", but others
>: will be offended because they know (and/or are related to people who know)
>: what it's like to be hunted by the Klan/SS/whatever.
>:
>I'm sorry, but when people can cry at the holocaust museum and then ignore
>the horrors that were occurring in Bosnia a while back at the same time,
>it shows that harping on symbols means nothing, because people are not
>learning what they need to from such tragic incidents. People are still
>so strongly living in the past on such issues that they are doing next to
>nothing to prevent them from occurring again in the world. People only
>remember what they want to remember when it is convenient for them to
>remember it. That is the sad state of affairs on this issue.
? ? Who are these people? I must admit, I feel that I have really fanned the
flames on this, but I certainly didn't ignore "the horrors that were occurring
in Bosnia." Bottlecaps being hammered into flesh, rape and pillage, "racial
cleansing." No, I did not ignore it. It turned my stomach.
>To those who get offended by a 2" tall piece of pewter painted with a
>white robe need to reevaluate the way the look at the world.
It doesn't offend me personally. It just seems unnecessary to trot out
something remniscent of a group that kills people because they are a different
color or religion. Mind you, I said "unnecessary." There is no good way to
stop it, and I wouldn't try even if there were. That would be censorship,
see?
If you seek >hatred and racism and discrimination in everything you will
find it, not >because it is there, mind you, but because you need to find it
so your >perception is clouded in the search.
No, I think its more an issue of being ever vigilant against something that a
lot of people choose to ignore because it is "in the past."
Even the simplest and clearest
>message can be perverted to actually be spouting some evil thought. Such
>is the way of the world, unfortunately. I for one will not proscribe to
>such nonsense, though. If someone brings out a mini with a banner that
>has a swastica on it, I will evaluate it for what it is: a miniature
>painted for a silly wargame.
I would also evaluate it for what it is. A miniature needlessly painted with
symbols of an evil force that the painter obviously has little understanding
of, or sensitivity to.
Getting offended by nazi representation in
>warhammer could be taken to an even sillier level to prohibit the painting
>of minis used in historical wargaming ("Oh no those panzer mk IVs make me
>think of the nazis. You'd better repaint them!!"). It just gets
>ridiculous. Now spray painting swasticas and racial epiteths on buildings
>is a totally different story and tends to be meant to insult and inspire
>fear.
The original post stated that his Marines were intended in much the same way.
>When looking at the history of the world, the reign of power of the Third
>Reich lasted less than 20 years. That is almost nothing historically
>speaking. Far greater atrocities than those perpetrated in europe during
>the second war were recorded. One of my personal favs in the history
>books was the crusades. European knights attacked the moors to free holy
>lands that they had never visited, but that were populated by the moors.
>The moors were considered savages and heretics, so it was considered OK to
>kill them because it was a religious quest. That concept was hardly
>divinely inspired or supported. So I guess we better stop using the
>Empire armies in WFB, since they show the evil side of middle ages.
Ah, but Empire forces in WFB are not white-tuniced figs emblazoned with red
crosses, are they? In fact, find one cross on a painted Empire fig for me.
Besides, even if they did, NOBODY has advocated the BANNING of any type of
paint scheme, or race, or group, or specific person, from a Warhammer/Games
Workshop game. Apparently, it needs to be said again: such insidious and
subtle ignoring of race hatred symbols is just worrisome to me. I don't like
seeing white people painting swastikas on fascist figs and white robes on
religious fanatics. But you know what? I played 40K, and I play
Redemptionists, and I consider them to be completely mentally imbalanced. But
they have red/orangeish-red robes on (yes, with flames). I'm pretty sure the
Klan never dressed like that.
>Let's face it. No aspect of the Warhammer games would survive a
>thoroughly close PC inspection, because every aspect could be linked to
>some bad point in the history of the world. Warfare itself is the worst
>part. If we're going to nitpick, we may as well not play since playing
>the game condones the evils of warfare whether we admit it or not.....
Let's face it. I never said any aspect of the game would survive close PC
inspection. I'm not PC. The whole viewpoint of the game is fascist, and
every race is mired in all kinds of race hate. But I, and everybody else that
I've read that has been on my side of this, have not said we should _stop
playing!!!_
I'm so tired of all the knee-jerk free speech nuts on the net who jump all
over anyone with an opinion in a newsgroup but probably don't give a shit
about their local media, the NEA, government intelligence, etc.
I never told anyone that they should stop doing anything. I just told a
hypothetical person that I didn't think painting symbols of race hate onto
something that is meant for a "silly game" was a very wise idea.
>Let's just get a grip and remember that we are playing a game.....Geesh!!
Exactly. So why drag real world concerns like the extermination of millions
of "deviants" into it?
>Avatar
Avatar
Voltron LePew (frue...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
:
: I'm so tired of all the knee-jerk free speech nuts on the net who jump all
: about their local media, the NEA, government intelligence, etc.
Its interesting that every one who isn't on your side is some kind of
knee-jerk free speech nut who jumps on someone with an opinion on the net.
You apparantly hadn't noticed that those people ALSO have opinions on the
net. I fail to see what any of this has to do with the local media,
government intelligence or even the NEA.
I feel free speech is important, but that does not mean I agree that
people should be allowed to harm anyone physically or verbally with their
speech. I just don't consider an idiot who paints swasticas all over his
minis to be worth the effort of getting upset over. I'm not too certain
that too many gaming stores would even allow him to play in the store
anyway.
:
: I never told anyone that they should stop doing anything. I just told a
: hypothetical person that I didn't think painting symbols of race hate onto
: something that is meant for a "silly game" was a very wise idea.
I never said that you told someone they should stop playing, but if you
are going to censure someone for support of one bad part of history, then
you should be censuring them for all their support of such bad parts of
history. That is the only point I was trying to make.
It is also annoying sometimes, that people tend to make comments that
people are allowed to do what they want, but I am better because I don't
do that. If you are going to accept that someone can do what they will
with their minis, then let them. Being too judgemental can just spread
the rift between all parties invovled. So that neither side understands
the feelings of the other. I am well aware that the issue disturbs you,
and you have a right to be bothered by it. My only issue was to not limit
yourself and others because of that fear and dislike.....
:
: >Let's just get a grip and remember that we are playing a game.....Geesh!!
:
: Exactly. So why drag real world concerns like the extermination of millions
: of "deviants" into it?
:
Because it was already there. The holocaust is one of the strongest
images from the nazi effects on the european and world community. It is
one of the reasons that so many people, like yourself, shudder when they
see a swastica. I do not feel fear or loathing when I see a swastica.
Instead I feel a bit saddened because of the thoughts of what that symbol
has come to mean within that context, but also because I am saddened that
another individual has chosen to expect intolerance of others to make a
better world. At times I feel pity for those who truly believe in the
nazi garbage/doctrine, because they are selling themselves short by hating
many people who could become friends, partners or even lovers to them,
becuase of basic and really insignificant differences.
I'm sorry if any of my posts have bothered you, but subjects such as these
tend to draw such strong lines between individuals, and I hate to see
that. The hatred behind the symbol and the hatred for the symbol become
the all of the topic and at that point nothing is shared or learned by
any...
Also sorry for the e-mail, but I think I've already wasted more than my
fair share of bandwidth on this not quite on topic thread (that is moving
further and further from the topic all the time...)....:)
Cheers!
Avatar
Avatar
Avatar (ava...@netaxs.com) wrote:
: Also sorry for the e-mail, but I think I've already wasted more than my
: further and further from the topic all the time...)....:)
Oops!! Looks like I screwed that one up, eh?? I was tyring to be a good
boy and hit the wrong button...Oh well!! ;)
Avatar
John D Addison
DDED...@ncinter.net> <4tqtrg$u...@express.ior.com>
Distribution:
dartfrog (jble...@pcsedu.com) wrote:
: >A bolter round?
: 4.7mm caseless? (G-11)
: >A heavy bolter round?
: Larger caliber caseless round.
Bolter rounds aren't caseless or the GW artists couldn't illustrate the
cool streams of shells being ejected from the bolters.:)
: >An autocannon round?
Brass Man
jble...@pcsedu.com (dartfrog) wrote:
>In article <31F92F...@richmond.infi.net>, ebe...@richmond.infi.net
>says...
> <snip>
>>
>>hmmmm...maybe I spoke too quickly...but compare almost anything to
>>the King Tiger ;)
>>Well...not sucky armor...but it pales in comparison to the metal gods
>>that the Germans created...I should have considered the ^^^^^^^^^^
>>earlier German stuff... got carried
>> away there,
>> sorry
>
>Many of these "Metal Gods" were good, but suffered from some severe
>problems. The Mercedes version of the Panther A lacked a hull machine
>gun (Ref: "Panzer Commander"), and they all suffered some severe
>initial teething problems. The T-34 still enjoyed a significant
>numerical and reliabiltiy advantage.
Hey, they worked during a Russian winter didn't they?
"The two best generals Russia has.."