[BatRep] Cheesed Over
cyber...@my-deja.com
underestimating your opponent.
So I played in a store tourney yesterday and drew this kid, no more than
12, to play against. His father had made up his army list (I guess), and
I figured my superior strategy would save the day. We both played
vanilla Space Marines.
This was the setup: my left flank, Tac Squad in Rhino, Land Speeder, and
Librarian; his right flank (my left), one Tac Squad. All I have to do is
take that out and roll up his flank, right?
On my right flank, Land Raider, Terminator Squad, 2nd Tac Squad in
Rhino, Tornado, and Devastator Squad; on his left, Terminator Squad, 2nd
Tac Squad, and Force Commander with Assault Squad (also Deep Striking
Terminators who never made it in). Odds in my favor, right?
For you experienced players, the alarm bells are going off, eh? Three
squads, where did all the points go? Right into the fondue pot.
The game starts and suddenly there's an Assassin doing his best to stab
my Librarian in the back. He has combat drugs? 4-9 attacks a round?
Good-bye.
Fine, I send my LR, Termies, and missiles against his Termies. But the
Assault Squad hops into my Termies. The Force Commander gets *five*
attacks before my first and takes out three Termies ("I'll be back").
I'd love to nail that Assault Squad with the Land Raider, but next turn
they make a Sweeping Advance into the Devastators. Guess what happens
next?
Yes, I took out his Tac Squad on my left flank, and most of his
Terminators, but he romped all over my army. Did I mention both of his
Tac Squads had a Lascannon? They took out both my skimmers. Amazingly,
and a first for me, I didn't lose the Land Raider.
The moral of the story is, real strategy doesn't apply in WH40K. Find
out where your opponent cheesed himself up and hit him there with
everything you've got.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Mark Francis
>Assault Squad hops into my Termies. The Force Commander gets *five*
>attacks before my first and takes out three Termies ("I'll be back").
Why aren't the termies inside the Land Raider?
>I'd love to nail that Assault Squad with the Land Raider, but next turn
>they make a Sweeping Advance into the Devastators. Guess what happens
>next?
Did you shoot at the Assault sqd during the sweeping advance with everything
you have? Read the rules on sweeping advance.
>The moral of the story is, real strategy doesn't apply in WH40K. Find
>out where your opponent cheesed himself up and hit him there with
>everything you've got.
Not even close, you reacted to his moves the whole time. He took the initiative
and kept it the entire game.
"There would be nothing to fear if you refused to be afraid"
-Ghandi
vermillian
britf...@aol.comnospam (Mark Francis) wrote:
> >The moral of the story is, real strategy doesn't apply in WH40K. Find
> >out where your opponent cheesed himself up and hit him there with
> >everything you've got.
>
> Not even close, you reacted to his moves the whole time. He took the
initiative
> and kept it the entire game.
True, he did have him reacting the entire game, but what was he to do?
Ignore it? Whatever!
Honestly, there isn't all that much strategy to 40K other than a
slightly more complicated version of rock paper scissors. Look at a
game like Fantasy, where position of troops is MUCH more important,
there aren't a gazillion of things that ignore leadership tests, and
where flanking something actually works, and you'll start to lose
respect for 40K...
just my bitter 2 cents
--
~Screaming Vermillian
CynicVermillian on AIM
"They grow old and depressed while children starve to death.
Elderly have one last gift for us 'fore they pass.
He had use. Now it's done. Cook the old. Feed the young."
~Deadly Toothpase - Eat Them
Insane Ranter
<cyber...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:92o0u9$im5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Not looking for sympathy, just trying to warn newbies about
> underestimating your opponent.
>
> So I played in a store tourney yesterday and drew this kid, no more than
> 12, to play against. His father had made up his army list (I guess), and
> I figured my superior strategy would save the day. We both played
> vanilla Space Marines.
>
> This was the setup: my left flank, Tac Squad in Rhino, Land Speeder, and
> Librarian; his right flank (my left), one Tac Squad. All I have to do is
> take that out and roll up his flank, right?
Well Sounds like ya did this as you posted later.... maybe you fell into the
"trap".
> On my right flank, Land Raider, Terminator Squad, 2nd Tac Squad in
> Rhino, Tornado, and Devastator Squad; on his left, Terminator Squad, 2nd
> Tac Squad, and Force Commander with Assault Squad (also Deep Striking
> Terminators who never made it in). Odds in my favor, right?
>
> For you experienced players, the alarm bells are going off, eh? Three
> squads, where did all the points go? Right into the fondue pot.
>
> The game starts and suddenly there's an Assassin doing his best to stab
> my Librarian in the back. He has combat drugs? 4-9 attacks a round?
> Good-bye.
Tehe... Would a Chaplin have worked better verus the assassin?
>
> Fine, I send my LR, Termies, and missiles against his Termies. But the
> Assault Squad hops into my Termies. The Force Commander gets *five*
> attacks before my first and takes out three Termies ("I'll be back").
>
> I'd love to nail that Assault Squad with the Land Raider, but next turn
> they make a Sweeping Advance into the Devastators. Guess what happens
> next?
>
> Yes, I took out his Tac Squad on my left flank, and most of his
> Terminators, but he romped all over my army. Did I mention both of his
> Tac Squads had a Lascannon? They took out both my skimmers. Amazingly,
> and a first for me, I didn't lose the Land Raider.
He gets lucky rolling dice and takes out your speeders..... Two Sqds. with
Lascannons is cheesy? I wonder what your devestor squad contained.
>
> The moral of the story is, real strategy doesn't apply in WH40K. Find
> out where your opponent cheesed himself up and hit him there with
> everything you've got.
Let's see. What size table did you play on? Maybe a better strategy would
have been to hit his weak flank while remaining out of hand-to-hand with
the stronger side. Conscitrating all the firepower on that side into a squad
until it is destroyed or redetered unless. Sounds like you did a Custer at
Little Big Horn and your just ticked you got beaten by a younger oppent.
Riboflavin
>In article <20001231160803...@ng-mf1.aol.com>,
>> Not even close, you reacted to his moves the whole time. He took the
>initiative
>> and kept it the entire game.
>
>True, he did have him reacting the entire game, but what was he to do?
>Ignore it? Whatever!
He could have avoided running his terminators out in the open against a more
powerful force. I mean, he had a squad of terminators in a Land Raider,
having them jump out in front of the assault squad was simply suicidal.
>Honestly, there isn't all that much strategy to 40K other than a
>slightly more complicated version of rock paper scissors.
Sounds like someone keeps losing their games. Also, Mark could have
remembered the rock-scissors-paper thing and avoided sending his rock
(terminators) up against a rock (terminators), scissors (assault squad), and
paper (F Commander). The fact that him just slamming a squad of terminators
in a Land Raider up against a bigger force didn't win the game for him
doesn't seem like a very good argument that there are no tactics in 40k to
me.
> Look at a
>game like Fantasy, where position of troops is MUCH more important,
>there aren't a gazillion of things that ignore leadership tests, and
>where flanking something actually works, and you'll start to lose
>respect for 40K...
I looked at fantasy, and wasn't interested in playing a fantasy game at
skirmish scale. Either give me big units on the field, or cut to the chase
and give me an RPG. Also, from reading WD battle reports it looks like you
neglected the biggest part of fantasy, throwing out high-powered magic
spells to win the game...
--
Kevin Allegood ribotr...@mindspring.pants.com
Remove the pants from my email address to reply
"Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may
have a meaning of which I disapprove." -- Ashleigh Brilliant
gaug...@my-deja.com
cyber...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Not looking for sympathy, just trying to warn newbies about
> underestimating your opponent.
Are you sincere when you state you're not looking for sympathy? Why the
title "Cheesed Over" then?
> So I played in a store tourney yesterday and drew this kid, no
> more than 12, to play against. His father had made up his army
> list (I guess), and I figured my superior strategy would save
> the day. We both played vanilla Space Marines.
>
> This was the setup: my left flank, Tac Squad in Rhino, Land
> Speeder, and Librarian; his right flank (my left), one Tac Squad.
> All I have to do is take that out and roll up his flank, right?
>
> On my right flank, Land Raider, Terminator Squad, 2nd Tac Squad in
> Rhino, Tornado, and Devastator Squad; on his left, Terminator
> Squad, 2nd Tac Squad, and Force Commander with Assault Squad
> (also Deep Striking Terminators who never made it in). Odds in
> my favor, right?
>
> For you experienced players, the alarm bells are going off, eh? Three
> squads, where did all the points go? Right into the fondue pot.
Does the fondue pot include 2 squads of Terminators, 1 Assault Squad,
and 2 tac squads? Everything but the assassin seems kosher. Perhaps I
need a new definition of cheesy.
> The game starts and suddenly there's an Assassin doing his best
> to stab my Librarian in the back. He has combat drugs? 4-9 attacks
> a round? Good-bye.
Were you not aware before the battle started that he had an Assassin? I
don't know how the Tournament was set up, but I always exchange army
lists with my opponent before gaming. Perhaps had you been aware of the
Assassin you might not have left your Librarian so defenseless.
> Fine, I send my LR, Termies, and missiles against his Termies. But the
> Assault Squad hops into my Termies. The Force Commander gets *five*
> attacks before my first and takes out three Termies ("I'll be back").
I'm not sure that I'm reading this right, but I assume that you attacked
his Terminators with your Terminators, with no additional backing. And
then you cry "cheese" when he adds in his Assault squad to the melee.
Sounds like he understands the concept of completely taking one squad at
a time with all of his forces before moving on to the next. What were
you hoping? That he'd leave his Assault squad out of close combat one
turn longer so that you could shoot at it?
> I'd love to nail that Assault Squad with the Land Raider, but
> next turn they make a Sweeping Advance into the Devastators.
> Guess what happens next?
>
> Yes, I took out his Tac Squad on my left flank, and most of his
> Terminators, but he romped all over my army. Did I mention both of his
> Tac Squads had a Lascannon?
Are you surprised? What did yours have? Flamers? I fail to see how
that is cheesy.
> They took out both my skimmers. Amazingly,
> and a first for me, I didn't lose the Land Raider.
>
> The moral of the story is, real strategy doesn't apply in WH40K. Find
> out where your opponent cheesed himself up and hit him there with
> everything you've got.
So if you had hit him hard against his Assassin, then you would have won
the battle? He won even though one of his Terminators squads didn't
show up. I'd say any cheesiness you claim he had is more than offset by
that point deficit.
The real moral of the story is that you shouldn't underestimate your
opponent, as you mentioned in the beginning of this thread.
Gauge1000
cyber...@my-deja.com
No, I didn't put my Terminators in the Land Raider. For some reason
players shoot at BFTs first. I had lost that BFT in every game before
this one - I didn't want to lose the Terminators, my best unit, along
with it. Okay, they could have survived, but I make chronically bad die
rolls, why tempt fate?
gauge1000 wrote:
> I'm not sure that I'm reading this right, but I assume that you
> attacked his Terminators with your Terminators, with no additional
> backing.
Sorry I didn't make this clear. I identified his Terminators as the
biggest threat and attacked them with my Terminator Squad, my Land
Raider, my Devastator Squad, and my Typhoon. If I'd had a kitchen sink
I'd have thrown that too. I whittled that squad down to two figures,
expecting that his Deep Striking Terminators would appear any minute.
> What did your [Tac squads] have? Flamers? I fail to see how that is
> cheesy.
My Tac squads had standard-issue boltguns. And Vet Sergeants with
Power Fists, in case they ran into vehicles. I should mention that these
were 1st Edition Space Marines, which puts a crimp in the choice of
weaponry.
> He won even though one of his Terminators squads didn't show up. I'd
> say any cheesiness you claim he had is more than offset by that point
> deficit.
The reason his other Termies didn't show was because we had a time
limit. We barely finished three rounds. I agree that he had a perfectly
good reason to put his Commander with the Assault Squad, because that
was the only unit that had a real chance to get into range for an
assault.
What I object to is the exploitation of loopholes to make one figure an
unstoppable killing machine. "I have five attacks. No, you can't fight
back. I hit four times. No, I hit five times, it's a master-crafted
weapon. I wound four times. No, you don't get saves. I killed four of
your guys, neener neener." Take this to its logical conclusion - suppose
your opponent had a figure that, during his turn, could kill d6+3
figures, anywhere on the table, without rolling anything, without you
having any chance to save them... and you can't do anything to hurt this
uber-figure. It stops being a game. It stops being fun.
George Kullavan
cyber...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
<Snip>
> > What did your [Tac squads] have? Flamers? I fail to see how that is
> > cheesy.
> My Tac squads had standard-issue boltguns. And Vet Sergeants with
> Power Fists, in case they ran into vehicles. I should mention that these
> were 1st Edition Space Marines, which puts a crimp in the choice of
> weaponry.
>
Erm, I could have sworn that there were some RT era beakies equipped with
a Conversion Beamer, Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter, or Multi-Melta.
Admittedly, the Heavy Bolter and Multi-Melta aren't too useful, but the
Missile Launcher is still good (even if it looks strange to some), and the
Conversion Beamer could always be used as an 'alternate pattern Lascannon' or
something as AFAIK, CB's aren't around in 40k3.
> > He won even though one of his Terminators squads didn't show up. I'd
> > say any cheesiness you claim he had is more than offset by that point
> > deficit.
>
> The reason his other Termies didn't show was because we had a time
> limit. We barely finished three rounds. I agree that he had a perfectly
> good reason to put his Commander with the Assault Squad, because that
> was the only unit that had a real chance to get into range for an
> assault.
>
> What I object to is the exploitation of loopholes to make one figure an
> unstoppable killing machine. "I have five attacks. No, you can't fight
> back. I hit four times. No, I hit five times, it's a master-crafted
> weapon. I wound four times. No, you don't get saves. I killed four of
> your guys, neener neener." Take this to its logical conclusion - suppose
> your opponent had a figure that, during his turn, could kill d6+3
> figures, anywhere on the table, without rolling anything, without you
> having any chance to save them... and you can't do anything to hurt this
> uber-figure. It stops being a game. It stops being fun.
>
Ouch. Master-Crafted Lightning Claws I take it? The somewhat 'good' news
is that your Terminators should have gotten a 5+ invulnerable save against
them. (As per US WD250 Chapter Approved) If he didn't take Lightning Claws,
then he got pretty lucky rolling to wound. As for uber-characters, I can't
think of any without any exploitable weaknesses in 40k. A squad of
Thunderhammer & Storm Shield equipped terminators would have put that commander
in his place as would swarming him in close combat with superior numbers.
- George
Riboflavin
>First, to answer another question in this thread:
>No, I didn't put my Terminators in the Land Raider.
Why bother taking a Land Raider then? You could take 2 predators for the
same cost and get more firepower and more survivability.
> For some reason
>players shoot at BFTs first.
Probably poor players - 2 lacannon shots a turn is going to take a while to
earn back 250pts.
> I had lost that BFT in every game before
>this one - I didn't want to lose the Terminators, my best unit, along
>with it. Okay, they could have survived, but I make chronically bad die
>rolls, why tempt fate?
If you make die rolls that badly, you should go to Vegas and clean up. The
only way a terminator fails his armor save when a vehicle blows up is
rolling a 1.
>gauge1000 wrote:
>> I'm not sure that I'm reading this right, but I assume that you
>> attacked his Terminators with your Terminators, with no additional
>> backing.
>
>Sorry I didn't make this clear. I identified his Terminators as the
>biggest threat and attacked them with my Terminator Squad, my Land
>Raider, my Devastator Squad, and my Typhoon.
What is that dev squad armed with? Since you said missiles before, it sounds
like it's an all ML dev squad, which should have fired at something other
than the terminators. It also sounds like you badly misidentified the
biggest threat, given what his commander did to you.
>If I'd had a kitchen sink
>I'd have thrown that too. I whittled that squad down to two figures,
>expecting that his Deep Striking Terminators would appear any minute.
Since he didn't have a Land Raider, why not just stay away from them? Storm
bolter fire isn't that effective, and it takes a long time for a unit with a
6" move to get to HtH. Really, you seem to be showing that you made a number
of tactical mistakes, not that there are no tactics involved in 40k.
>> What did your [Tac squads] have? Flamers? I fail to see how that is
>> cheesy.
> My Tac squads had standard-issue boltguns.
So your tac squads were poorly equipped. The fact that your army sacrificed
fluff to make itself weaker doesn't make the fact that your opponent
followed fluff (properly equipping his tac squads) cheesey.
> And Vet Sergeants with
>Power Fists, in case they ran into vehicles. I should mention that these
>were 1st Edition Space Marines, which puts a crimp in the choice of
>weaponry.
Funny, I have RT-era space marines with plasma guns, flamers, lascannons,
missile launchers, and heavy bolters, as well as needle guns (which I use as
meltas) and modern melta guns on beakie bodies, plus multimeltas and
conversion beamers (which I use as plasma cannons). It's not like it's that
hard to scratch-build a lascannon from sprue bits if you're too poor to buy
something with one.
>What I object to is the exploitation of loopholes to make one figure an
>unstoppable killing machine.
What, exactly were the 'loopholes' he was exploiting? His FC was hardly an
unstoppable killing machine, you could have shot him up with heavy weapons
(it's certainly easier to kill an assault squad with missiles than a
terminator squad), brought real force to bear in HtH, or a variety of other
things. And you seem to have been relying on your librarian to be a similar
'unstoppable' killing machine - weren't you counting on him to waltz through
a tac squad and into the flank of his force?
>"I have five attacks.
Assuming your librarian has a power or force weapon and bolt pistol, he gets
the same on the charge.
> No, you can't fight back.
Your librarian has the same I5, and terminator power fists strike last
anyway.
> I hit four times.
Your librarian has the same WS5
>No, I hit five times, it's a master-crafted
>weapon.
You should be glad he took master-crafting rather than terminator honors,
since TH is a better deal.
>I wound four times.
He was either lucky or had lightning claws (a 30pt weapon)
>No, you don't get saves.
Same as the power/force weapon that every librarian I'm familiar with has,
though really you get 5+ saves because of the CA in WD251.
> I killed four of
>your guys, neener neener."
Oh darn, his commander did the kind of damage your librarian could do.
>Take this to its logical conclusion - suppose
>your opponent had a figure that, during his turn, could kill d6+3
>figures, anywhere on the table, without rolling anything, without you
>having any chance to save them... and you can't do anything to hurt this
>uber-figure. It stops being a game. It stops being fun.
>
Of course, there are a plethora of ways to kill the rather expensive FC,
including HtH combat, so your 'logical conclusion' is anything but.
RT Maitreya
> Conversion Beamer could always be used as an 'alternate pattern Lascannon' or
> something as AFAIK, CB's aren't around in 40k3.
Conversion beamers look very much like plasma cannon.
I field mine that way, and only one person in all
of my matches has ever even noticed that it *wasn't*
a plasma cannon.
RTM
-"Hey, is that a conversion gun? Cool!"
Mark Francis
>Did I mention both of his
>Tac Squads had a Lascannon?
This is supposed to be the 41st millenium, you know..tanks, dreadnoughts,
Titans! Would you prefer that troops just throw tin cans at each other?
cyber...@my-deja.com
> you seem to be showing that you made a number of tactical mistakes,
> not that there are no tactics involved in 40k.
Yes, I agree, I made several mistakes. Maybe you can add to this list:
1. I failed to learn the objectives of the game.
2. I failed to examine my opponent's army list before the game.
3. I failed to identify the greatest threats in his army.
4. I failed to attack the greatest threats in his army.
5. I failed to insist that my Terminators get the Invulnerable save
allowed by WD 250.
6. I failed to use my Land Raider to its full potential.
7. I failed to use my Librarian to his full potential.
8. I failed to equip my army with the most powerful weapons and
abilities available.
Why no Invulnerable save? My opponent kept running to his Daddy when a
rules question came up, even though I had the Big Book and the SM Codex.
When his Force Commander attacked my Terminators, I mentioned the rule,
so of course he went to Daddy, who was involved in his own game at the
next table. This time Daddy came over, looked at the situation, and said
No Save - I considered myself outvoted. Yes, it was wrong, it was
stupid, I know that now. I plead inexperience. This was only my third
tournament and only my seventh game using 3rd Edition rules (1st Edition
is another story).
A store tourney? Wait, shouldn't there be an official moderator, someone
to settle just this sort of dispute? Well, yes there was. He was sitting
at the other end of the hall playing some kind of boardgame. Not
watching, not refereeing, but playing. Things are probably better
organized at your venues.
Despite my mistakes, I still maintain that tactics have only a minor
role in this game. But that belongs in another thread.
> It's not like it's that hard to scratch-build a lascannon from sprue
> bits if you're too poor to buy something with one.
Ow, noblesse oblige! Excuse me for having a budget and more important
things to spend my time and money on. It's just a game. I'd love to rant
but that belongs in another thread too.
> you seem to have been relying on your librarian to be a similar
> 'unstoppable' killing machine - weren't you counting on him to waltz
> through a tac squad and into the flank of his force?
Actually, no. In some scenarios your opponent gets points for removing
your commander, so I tried to balance his offensive value with keeping
him alive. The Assassin made that a moot point. Yes, he should have
stood off and Smitten the Assassin to death (#7 above). Yes, I should
have put him on my other flank (#4) and probably attach him to the
Terminators. Yes, I shouldn't have bothered trying to protect him (#1).
As it turned out, the Rhino-mounted Tac squad with him easily wiped out
that enemy Tac squad, and given time they would have wiped out his other
flank, assisting the other Tac squad already doing just that. But time
ran out.
>> "I have five attacks.
> Assuming your librarian has a power or force weapon and bolt pistol,
> he gets the same on the charge.
He has a Power Axe and a Storm Bolter. He has only three attacks, four
in a charge.
>> "No, you can't fight back.
> Your librarian has the same I5, and terminator power fists strike last
> anyway
As someone already pointed out, he did the right thing by avoiding a
fair fight, so shouldn't I do the same?
>> "I hit four times.
> Your librarian has the same WS5
Yes, and he'd have used that to good effect... if he hadn't been stabbed
in the back.
>> "No, I hit five times, it's a master-crafted weapon.
> You should be glad he took master-crafting rather than terminator
> honors, since TH is a better deal.
Hmm, I need to look into that....
>> "I wound four times.
> He was either lucky or had lightning claws (a 30pt weapon)
I don't know what weapon he had (#2).
>> "No, you don't get saves.
> Same as the power/force weapon that every librarian I'm familiar with
> has, though really you get 5+ saves because of the CA in WD251.
:-( #5).
>> "I killed four of your guys, neener neener."
> Oh darn, his commander did the kind of damage your librarian could do.
Let's see, the FC gets 4 attacks to my 3, re-rolls misses, and can wound
four Terminators in a single attack... nope, I don't see it.
> Of course, there are a plethora of ways to kill the rather expensive
> FC
Unless of course the FC attaches himself to a squad. You can't touch him
until you've killed every figure in that squad. Oops, then he can attach
himself to a different squad. Given enough time and firepower, you might
take out every squad in his army. But by then the game is over, one way
or another.
All right, a lucky ordnance shot could wound him. Once. But can you
count on the same luck twice? Three times?
A flamer, maybe? While he's involved in another HtH? But you can't fire
into a melee, never ever.
I could get my own Assassin. But some scenarios don't allow them.
And once I get my army tuned up to handle this kind of character,
Murphy's Law dictates that I face something completely different, and
the whole mess starts all over again.
Sorry, I'm not the rules lawyer type. If I have to spend hours looking
for an exception or loophole or footnote just to get a fighting chance,
it's not really worth my while to play the game. Guess I'll stick with
RPGs, where enjoying the game comes before interpreting the rules.
In conclusion, let me point out the difference between stupidity and
ignorance. I don't yet know all the rules, but I learn from my mistakes.
The truly stupid - and much worse, the willfully ignorant - don't learn
anything. I appreciate everyone's time and thought put into this thread.
Riboflavin
>Riboflavin wrote:
>> you seem to be showing that you made a number of tactical mistakes,
>> not that there are no tactics involved in 40k.
>
>Yes, I agree, I made several mistakes. Maybe you can add to this list:
>1. I failed to learn the objectives of the game.
>2. I failed to examine my opponent's army list before the game.
>3. I failed to identify the greatest threats in his army.
>4. I failed to attack the greatest threats in his army.
>5. I failed to insist that my Terminators get the Invulnerable save
>allowed by WD 250.
>6. I failed to use my Land Raider to its full potential.
>7. I failed to use my Librarian to his full potential.
>8. I failed to equip my army with the most powerful weapons and
>abilities available.
>
>Why no Invulnerable save? My opponent kept running to his Daddy when a
>rules question came up, even though I had the Big Book and the SM Codex.
>When his Force Commander attacked my Terminators, I mentioned the rule,
>so of course he went to Daddy, who was involved in his own game at the
>next table. This time Daddy came over, looked at the situation, and said
>No Save - I considered myself outvoted.
Yup, that's definately a mistake. Were his terminators taking the
invulnerable save?
> Yes, it was wrong, it was
>stupid, I know that now. I plead inexperience. This was only my third
>tournament and only my seventh game using 3rd Edition rules (1st Edition
>is another story).
Your plea is kind of meaningless when you persist in holding on to your
inexperience - by posting more information, you could get better answers
from people on this NG. Instead, you just said 'damn, these rules suck, his
army was cheesey because he beat me, there aren't any tactics in 40k'.
>A store tourney? Wait, shouldn't there be an official moderator, someone
>to settle just this sort of dispute? Well, yes there was. He was sitting
>at the other end of the hall playing some kind of boardgame. Not
>watching, not refereeing, but playing.
And was he available to take time out for refereeing? Most people don't like
to just stand around and answer the occasional question all day, you know.
> Things are probably better
>organized at your venues.
Locally, for league games there's normally not an official moderator around,
though the experienced players will all hop in and point out rules problems.
There is a ref at the final tournament, but he normally just observes and
makes rolls for ending random games.
>Despite my mistakes, I still maintain that tactics have only a minor
>role in this game. But that belongs in another thread.
Which is probably why you're not winning games...
>> It's not like it's that hard to scratch-build a lascannon from sprue
>> bits if you're too poor to buy something with one.
>
>Ow, noblesse oblige! Excuse me for having a budget and more important
>things to spend my time and money on. It's just a game. I'd love to rant
>but that belongs in another thread too.
It's hardly cheesey for the other guy to take fluffy tac squads, and you
certainly seemed to be calling his having lascannons in his tac squads
cheesey in your rant. If you're playing in a WYSIWYG league, then you either
need to get accustomed to losing or make conversions/purchases so that you
have a decent force. If you're not in a WYSIWYG league, then you can get
lascannons pretty easily.
>> you seem to have been relying on your librarian to be a similar
>> 'unstoppable' killing machine - weren't you counting on him to waltz
>> through a tac squad and into the flank of his force?
>
>Actually, no. In some scenarios your opponent gets points for removing
>your commander, so I tried to balance his offensive value with keeping
>him alive. The Assassin made that a moot point. Yes, he should have
>stood off and Smitten the Assassin to death (#7 above).
If the assasin wasn't in HtH with him, why didn't the tac squad help kill
the assasin? If an assasin pops up, you want to kill him before engaging
other stuff in the distance.
>Yes, I should
>have put him on my other flank (#4) and probably attach him to the
>Terminators. Yes, I shouldn't have bothered trying to protect him (#1).
Having him join up with a squad is a big step along the road to protecting
him, and you don't want to waste 100pt or so characters regardless of
whether there's points for killing them.
>As it turned out, the Rhino-mounted Tac squad with him easily wiped out
>that enemy Tac squad, and given time they would have wiped out his other
>flank, assisting the other Tac squad already doing just that. But time
>ran out.
Why wasn't the tac squad helping to kill the assasin, though?
>>> "I have five attacks.
>> Assuming your librarian has a power or force weapon and bolt pistol,
>> he gets the same on the charge.
>
>He has a Power Axe and a Storm Bolter. He has only three attacks, four
>in a charge.
Storm bolter is a poor choice on a character for exactly that reason - a
cheaper bolt pistol would do the job. Was he in terminator armor? Since you
seem to be playing WYSIWYG (with the lack of HWs in your tac squads) and
don't have conversions, AFAIK the only librarian with a SB and axe is in
terminator armor. If he's in terminator armor, then he had 4 attacks (3 base
+1 for terminator honors, which is included in terminator armor), 5 on the
charge just like your opponent.
>>> "No, you can't fight back.
>> Your librarian has the same I5, and terminator power fists strike last
>> anyway
>
>As someone already pointed out, he did the right thing by avoiding a
>fair fight, so shouldn't I do the same?
The whole point of tactics is avoiding fair fights. You, however, called the
guy cheesey and went on about rules loopholes when all he did was use a
single unit marginally better than yours (and probably much more expensive).
My point in comparing the FC and librarian is to show that you had a similar
capability and misused it, which means your opponent either wasn't
exploiting loopholes or you were exploiting the same ones.
>>> "I hit four times.
>> Your librarian has the same WS5
>
>Yes, and he'd have used that to good effect... if he hadn't been stabbed
>in the back.
So protect him next time...
>>> "No, I hit five times, it's a master-crafted weapon.
>> You should be glad he took master-crafting rather than terminator
>> honors, since TH is a better deal.
>
>Hmm, I need to look into that....
Terminator honors gives you an extra attack, MC gives you (effectively) an
extra attack if you miss with one of your attacks, and they both cost the
same.
>>> "I wound four times.
>> He was either lucky or had lightning claws (a 30pt weapon)
>
>I don't know what weapon he had (#2).
Are you playing with WYSIWYG or not? If you can't sub in lascannons for your
marines, then he'd better have those lightning claws modeled.
>>> "I killed four of your guys, neener neener."
>> Oh darn, his commander did the kind of damage your librarian could do.
>
>Let's see, the FC gets 4 attacks to my 3, re-rolls misses,
There is nothing in the marine armory that lets you reroll misses - MC lets
you reroll ONE miss, not all of them.
> and can wound
>four Terminators in a single attack... nope, I don't see it.
That's largely because you've decided to whine about cheesiness rather than
attempt to improve your own playing.
>> Of course, there are a plethora of ways to kill the rather expensive
>> FC
>
>Unless of course the FC attaches himself to a squad. You can't touch him
>until you've killed every figure in that squad. Oops, then he can attach
>himself to a different squad.
He can't go running around attaching himself to other squads during your
shooting phase, and other squads likely aren't going to be in as good of a
position as his original. Your army had enough firepower to wipe out 3
terminators with AP3 weapons, you certainly should be able to wipe out 5 (or
even 10) assault mairines (who don't save against them and fail saves twice
as often against bolters).
Plus there are a few ways to kill him without killing off the whole squad,
like ordnance or HtH (librarian with a force weapon, drednought, etc).
> Given enough time and firepower, you might
>take out every squad in his army. But by then the game is over, one way
>or another.
Except that you don't have to do anything of the sort. I've blown away 200pt
characters before without having to walk through a whole enemy army,
concentration of fire (and having firepower in the first place) work
wonders. You managed to kill 3 terminators with 'missiles' (and presumably
storm bolter and bolter fire), against which they save 5 times in 6. Those
same missiles would do much better against his assault squad, who don't get
a save against krak missiles and get a worse save against bolters and
typhoon missiles. Once the squad is dead, all it takes is one single krak
missile to finish off the commander.
>All right, a lucky ordnance shot could wound him. Once.
And he's dead, because of the instant-kill rule - one wound from a weapon
with twice his toughness gets rid of all 3 wounds.
> But can you
>count on the same luck twice? Three times?
With S8 or better (ML, LC, vindicator, melta gun, multimelta, powerfist, or
dred powerfist for marines) you only have to get 'lucky' once.
>A flamer, maybe? While he's involved in another HtH? But you can't fire
>into a melee, never ever.
You can if he made a sweeping advance, though a flamer is a bad choice. Read
the rules on sweeping advances - if he swept in his turn, you can shoot him
on yours. You should know this, several people mentioned it regarding the
assault squad sweeping into your dev squad.
>I could get my own Assassin. But some scenarios don't allow them.
All of the book scenarios allow them, though they're 'opponent agreement
only' (hint) and a lot of tournament/league settings restrict or prohibit
them (our local league allows one SC per army, and an assasin counts as the
special character).
>And once I get my army tuned up to handle this kind of character,
>Murphy's Law dictates that I face something completely different, and
>the whole mess starts all over again.
In most scenarios you're required to have an HQ, and for marines a 2 or 3
wound character with some sort of power weapon is the norm, so it's not like
you'll never expect to see this sort of thing again. And I really don't see
why you'd bother playing a wargame if dealing with different opponents is
something you don't like doing.
Further, one of the best ways of dealing with characters (heavy weapons)
also works well against vehicles, troops, and, well, pretty much everything.
>Sorry, I'm not the rules lawyer type. If I have to spend hours looking
>for an exception or loophole or footnote just to get a fighting chance,
None of the rules you're missing are loopholes or footnotes, aside maybe
from the terminator save. Had you started off with a play by play of the
game instead of just whining, someone could have pointed out some of the
basic and well-known rules like firing into a sweeping advance or the 5+
save for terminators.
>it's not really worth my while to play the game. Guess I'll stick with
>RPGs, where enjoying the game comes before interpreting the rules.
RPGs and wargames are completely different styles of game, so play the one
that suits you better. Just don't expect those of us who play 40k to sit
around and go 'yeah, the game we play sucks, and none of us use any tactics
to win, you rock!'.
>In conclusion, let me point out the difference between stupidity and
>ignorance. I don't yet know all the rules, but I learn from my mistakes.
>The truly stupid - and much worse, the willfully ignorant - don't learn
>anything. I appreciate everyone's time and thought put into this thread.
>
The reason why I flamed you is that you chose to go with stupidity and
willful ignornance, whining that your opponent won by 'cheesing you over'
and complaining that there's no need for strategy/tactics in the game rather
than trying to find out what you could have done. It's only now that you've
gotten around to posting a decent amount of information that someone can go
through and point out the flaws, before there simply wasn't enough to go on.