[40k] Politically Correct paint jobs
john bailey
up my WYSIWYG-ness and I have a dilemma. Years ago when playing 2e, I
bought a mob of stormboyz and as a play on the "stormboyz" name and their
appearance, painted them in a grey scheme with red backplates. On the
backplates, in keeping with the play on the name, I painted black swastikas
on red background.
The paint job has no socio-political significance, I am very far from being
a nazi or white supremacist (my wife is a very dark skinned, very Catholic
Latina), but I don't want to catch shit for this paint job at the RTT. At
the same time, I have other cool things I'd rather spend my little
remaining painting time on before the RTT on Saturday morning.
Should I worry about the swastikas or blow it off and leave them as is?
--
john bailey
Ville Salo
wrote:
You could make the swastikas into little "Windows", oh no that
wouldn't work, that would be even more offensive. Seriously speaking,
I don't really know, somebody is probably not going to like them, so I
would err on the cautious side. (Can you just do a quickie job with
them, paint the back-plates black and apply a waterslide or something
like that?
--
Ville Salo
ville.salo(at)uta.fi
Rufus Broghammer
>
> Should I worry about the swastikas or blow it off and leave them as is?
>
*****Worry about them. Paint over them. I know if I was across the table
from you, as a black man, I would refuse to play you, and we would
probably have words.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Darth Tear
"john bailey" <jbai...@swbell.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:ubruf9...@news.supernews.com...
I'd say yes, you should...no matter if you painted them years ago, swasticas
on anything except WW2 german model show terribly bad taste, at least. I'd
remove them, if not for the risk of offending other people, at least to be
sure not to be considered a nazi.
--
--
DarkTear
"No! Try not.
Do. Or do not.
There is no try."
--
Ville Salo
<zack_i...@yahoo.it> wrote:
>I'd say yes, you should...no matter if you painted them years ago, swasticas
>on anything except WW2 german model show terribly bad taste, at least. I'd
>remove them, if not for the risk of offending other people, at least to be
>sure not to be considered a nazi.
The swastika has become a way too strong a symbol. Of course if you
could explain about the symbol to everyone that sees your figures. (It
was not invented by the nazis and has been used by lots of other
cultures and countries). But most people who meet you are going to
think you're an idiot when they see those swastikas, as can probably
be evidenced by replies to this thread.
--
Ville Salo
ville.salo(at)uta.fi
Poster formerly known as anonymous
turn it into the number 4. Or an opening box.
Robert Singers
"john bailey" wrote
> Should I worry about the swastikas or blow it off and leave
them as is?
I'd just paint them off and not worry about narrow minded people.
Blue Raja
Personally, if I liked them, I'd leave them alone.
OTOH, as a history thing, IIRC the 2nd Ed Stormboyz were based on WWI German
troops, so maybe an iron cross would be more appropriate.
As for the significance and possible repurcussions of the symbol itself, let
me say this: do you think Redemptionists should not be allowed in Necro
games as they resemble the KKK?
--
The Blue Raja
"We tried to stop her by hitting her fists and feet with our faces, but...
" - Gunn
RGMW FAQ - Just read the damn thing
http://www.sheppard.demon.co.uk/rgmw_faq/rgmw_faq.htm
John Hwang
>I painted black swastikas on red background.
>Should I worry about the swastikas or blow it off and leave
>them as is?
I'd just paint over them in a flat metal and call it a day. No need to have
these sorts of things out there. If you leave it on, no doubt, karma says
you'll end up playing against someone who feels strongly about it.
--- John Hwang "JohnHw...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
nboylie
trouble or arent feeling too rebelious take them off.
Ducalguard
I'd leave em. Myself, I painted SS emblems on my old style orks because
they were, afterall stormboyz, and the uniforms weren't just similar to WWII
nazi uniforms, they WERE WWII nazi uniforms, all the way down to the Kaptain
with the German Kommander's hat, eyepatch and pistol. Personally, I don't buy
into political correctness, its all bullshit in my book.
PC is more of a middle-class white phenomoenon if you ask me. I was in a
black studies class a couple years back and the professor started talking about
African-Americans. She also talked about Asian-Americans, Latin-Americans and
any other hyphenated race you can think of. The discussion boiled down to my
finally saying that I don't view blacks as African-Americans, Chineese as
Asian-Americans and all the other labels given. I also said that I found that,
as a white American, I felt discriminated against because of the labelling and
if you WANT to get technical, I'm not White (which is the label she came up
with for anyone not hyphenated)...I said I'm European-American. The funniest
part of the whole discussion is that the entire..and I mean ENTIRE portion of
the class that were black backed me up on that. They even said THEY find
African-American as a label they don't like...they're black and they're
American. Thats exactly what they said. Its funny that we're so worried about
what other people think about things that we find it more conveniant to change
something that doesn't need to be changed to suit a small percentage of the
audience. Now how this relates is that, yes, you could change your paint job
but then chances are you'll find someone simply finding the uniforms as a
negative. If it isn't one thing its another. Whats most important is to be
true to yourself and if you do not mean offense by it and its in the style of
the figure you can't go out of your way to change it (or at least I don't think
you should). Its the whole PC crowd that make it so if you buy a WWII german
vehicle or toy, the swastikas are not on the miniature, even in a historical
context. Oh, and for the record, I'm not racist, I don't abide by the views of
the KKK or any neo-nazi party, I actually despise those backwards buffoons.
Doug
Insane Ranter
"Ducalguard" <ducal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020417221848...@mb-mv.aol.com...
> >Should I worry about the swastikas or blow it off and leave them as is?
>
> I'd leave em. Myself, I painted SS emblems on my old style orks
because
> they were, afterall stormboyz, and the uniforms weren't just similar to
WWII
> nazi uniforms, they WERE WWII nazi uniforms, all the way down to the
Kaptain
> with the German Kommander's hat, eyepatch and pistol. Personally, I don't
buy
> into political correctness, its all bullshit in my book.
[snip]
Read this
http://www.uni-erfurt.de/nordamerika/literatur/roosevelt.htm
And tell us if you think Teddy R. was on the right track.
AntiSocial
Blow it off, but you'll still get shit for it. My friend was called a hick and
white-prider because his "Rebel Wolves" had a confederate flag on one shoulder.
Blue Raja
news:3CBDBC35...@hotmail.com...
> Blow it off, but you'll still get shit for it. My friend was called a hick
and
> white-prider because his "Rebel Wolves" had a confederate flag on one
shoulder.
There's no accounting for narrow-mindedness...
Have any of these people stopped for a second and realised that this is a
*war*game, and that some crossover from real war might occur?
George Worroll
<antipal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Blow it off, but you'll still get shit for it. My friend was called a hick and
>white-prider because his "Rebel Wolves" had a confederate flag on one shoulder.
>
Yeah. Only people of non european descent can be proud of their
ancestry. Descendants of Spanish exempt from above statement provided
their families have been in North America a minimum of 3 centuries and
originally settled in Mexico, Califonia, New Mexico, Texas, Florida,
or the carribean and interbred with the native populations.
You hit on one thing that pisses me off. people equate white pride
with racism. So what if I'm proud of my pure white european ancestry?
AS long as I'm american first, and treat people of other ancestries as
their actions dictate, I should be able to stick White Pride all over
my car and not be harrased over it. The sick thing is, the people
that would harass me over it are likely to have Black Pride and Asian
Pride stickers on their cars... Well if you fucking morons want
equality, then let me have my white pride. And the confederate flag-
like it or not that is a legitimate part of the history and heritage
of the southern United States. And should be displayed and circulated
as a reminder of what nearly destroyed this nation. It wasn't slavery
per se, while that was the largest specific issue sparking it, it was
about states rights and how much power Washington should have to
interfere with the internal affairs of the individual states. It just
happened that slavery was what the southerners got paranoid about. If
it wasn't slavery, it would have been taxes, militias, something would
have come up.
THat isn't meant to rail against minorities who are proud of their
ancestry- people of all descents have something to be proud of in
their cultural heritage. I just wish there wasn't a double standard
when it came to white pride.
To the original poster:
I'd personally remove it, these are minis meant for playing use, and
if your paint job offends people you decrease the fun of the game for
all concerned... ITs your call, if you want to keep the swastikas
then as long as tournament rules allow it then go for it. But for a
public tournament my advice would be to cover them up to avoid offense
and unnecesary tension ruining the fun of the tournament.
If they were for a display, I'd say fuck what others think and leave
it that way. Display miniatures are about art, playing miniatures are
about fun. At least thats how I see it. Though of course there is
some crossover... but swastikas can cause enough problems that I think
they should be left off of playing armies and relegated to the display
case. Still, the most I'd say if facing an army with swastikas is
that I don't agree with it, explain why, and then I'd proceed to get
on with the game
Tahrik Mili
"Blue Raja" <the_bl...@dingoblue.net.au.spamless> wrote in message
news:3cbe1f0a$0$3902$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
<snip>
> As for the significance and possible repurcussions of the symbol itself,
let
> me say this: do you think Redemptionists should not be allowed in Necro
> games as they resemble the KKK?
But they wear red robes, not white :P
Seriously, though, the amount of racial hatred and xenophobia in Warhammer
40K is so hysterical that I find people who would to take offense at the use
of a swastika rather amusing. As if the Emperor's troops are any better to
other races than the SS were..
--
Regards,
Yalaz "Mil" Ozkanli
E-Mail: ya...@hotmail.nospam.com
ICQ: 696664nospam
"Despair: It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black."
- Despair Inc.
Remove .nospam to reply personally.
abdul 666
> > up my WYSIWYG-ness and I have a dilemma. Years ago when playing 2e, I
> > bought a mob of stormboyz and as a play on the "stormboyz" name and their
> I'd say yes, you should...no matter if you painted them years ago, swasticas
> on anything except WW2 german model show terribly bad taste, at least. I'd
> remove them, if not for the risk of offending other people, at least to be
> sure not to be considered a nazi.
Such 'PC' extreme position is totally silly: swastika is an old &
universal solar symbol, used by a lot of cultures from Plain Indians
(should I write 'Native Americans'?) to Japanese; in the same vein one
could claim that the 6-pointed star on display on some american local
police uniforms -as seen in some tv series, and that could be used on
'near future street violence' SWAT minis, e.g.- is offensive as a
sionist symbol! And, unless you meet people specially deprived of
humour, I think you'd be in more risk of being considered as a nazi
when wargaming WWII Germans than cartoonesque Orks with swastikas:
after all, Orks are stupid and ridiculous, so give them what could be
seen as nazi heraldry is an anti-nazi manifesto.
But then, I understand that pressure for Politically Correct attitude
is far more stringent in the US than anywhere else; I pity the
anglo-saxon authors of scientific books who feel compelled to explain
in lenght that if they use 'male' when alluding to their reader it's
just to avoid thr sempiternal 'his or her', that they know well that
women are as sensible as males, &c... rather sad.
Political Correctness sometimes leads to unintentional (dark& bad
taste) humour: in the (awful) 'Conan' tv series, the Cimmerian's 3
sidekicks are handicaped people: a dwarf, a mute and a black...
Justin Taylor
not. I have 40 stormboyz and not one has a swastika.
rzrsedge
"George Worroll" <ctrav...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:n8rsbug6r879jbl4e...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 11:17:26 -0700, AntiSocial
> <antipal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Blow it off, but you'll still get shit for it. My friend was called a
hick and
> >white-prider because his "Rebel Wolves" had a confederate flag on one
shoulder.
> >
>
> Yeah. Only people of non european descent can be proud of their
> ancestry. Descendants of Spanish exempt from above statement provided
> their families have been in North America a minimum of 3 centuries and
> originally settled in Mexico, Califonia, New Mexico, Texas, Florida,
> or the carribean and interbred with the native populations.
>
> You hit on one thing that pisses me off. people equate white pride
> with racism. So what if I'm proud of my pure white european ancestry?
> AS long as I'm american first, and treat people of other ancestries as
> their actions dictate, I should be able to stick White Pride all over
> my car and not be harrased over it. The sick thing is, the people
> that would harass me over it are likely to have Black Pride and Asian
> Pride stickers on their cars... Well if you fucking morons want
> equality, then let me have my white pride.
The problem is when you group all Europeans into one lump. White Pride is
crap and sounds racist. Now if you were to be proud of your Scottish
ancestry
and express it in that way it makes more sense for a pride/ancestry
argument.
In America the black community would have an extremely hard time tracing
back
to their original tribes/locations and so rally around each other from their
shared
history. Most of the asians I know are usually about their country of
origin but since
most non-asains have trouble telling Chinese from a Thai they get lumped
together. It's one thing to be proud of your ancestry but another to try
and to state
a separate race. White isn't a "race", it's just a generic slang term for
looking like
someone of European ethnicity. I don't believe in white pride, but I am
proud of
my Italian, Scottish, and Cherokee ancestry.
rzrsedge
and only you can decide. You can try and bullshit yourself that it's used
elsewhere as a symbol. The reality is that it will be seen as a Nazi
symbol. I personally wouldn't really care if a unit had that, but if you
came to the Tournament passing it fliers and such I might more inclined to
be offended. Conseidering the figs it makes sense, and as it was pointed
out elsewhere 40k isn't exactly a game of friendly groups negotiating
peacefully about their differences. If you just want to have fun and not
get hastled I would cover or change them somehow.
Pochi the Dog
> <antipal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Blow it off, but you'll still get shit for it. My friend was called a
hick and
> >white-prider because his "Rebel Wolves" had a confederate flag on one
shoulder.
> >
>
> Yeah. Only people of non european descent can be proud of their
> ancestry. Descendants of Spanish exempt from above statement provided
> their families have been in North America a minimum of 3 centuries and
> originally settled in Mexico, Califonia, New Mexico, Texas, Florida,
> or the carribean and interbred with the native populations.
>
> You hit on one thing that pisses me off. people equate white pride
> with racism.
Thank the Skinheads and the other morons for hijacking the phrase thus the
image of racism.
>So what if I'm proud of my pure white european ancestry?
Pure?
> AS long as I'm american first, and treat people of other ancestries as
> their actions dictate, I should be able to stick White Pride all over
> my car and not be harrased over it.
I always wondered why Americans say African-American, or Chinese-American.
In Australia the terms used are Australian-African, or Australian-Chinese
which to me means they are first Australian and then the specific ethnic
group. With the American system I get the opposite impression.
> And the confederate flag-
> like it or not that is a legitimate part of the history and heritage
> of the southern United States. And should be displayed and circulated
> as a reminder of what nearly destroyed this nation. It wasn't slavery
> per se, while that was the largest specific issue sparking it, it was
> about states rights and how much power Washington should have to
> interfere with the internal affairs of the individual states.
I equate it to someone putting the Scottish flag on a minis shoulder. If I
saw it I'd call them a hick.:-)
>
> THat isn't meant to rail against minorities who are proud of their
> ancestry- people of all descents have something to be proud of in
> their cultural heritage. I just wish there wasn't a double standard
> when it came to white pride.
Watched American History X last night. Interesting movie.
>
>
> To the original poster:
> I'd personally remove it, these are minis meant for playing use, and
> if your paint job offends people you decrease the fun of the game for
> all concerned... ITs your call, if you want to keep the swastikas
> then as long as tournament rules allow it then go for it. But for a
> public tournament my advice would be to cover them up to avoid offense
> and unnecesary tension ruining the fun of the tournament.
>
Sometimes a image is used intentionally to give offence and/or reaction.
Members of my cricket team lacquered pictures of half naked women on the
cricket bats for decoration and to offend the visiting Pakistani teams. As
for the swastika I feel it is in bad taste. A swastika does not mean white
pride, it means nazi, and yes I know its an ancient symbol.
Kev
Blue Raja
news:sjuv8.162884$eM1....@news.easynews.com...
> > As for the significance and possible repurcussions of the symbol itself,
> let
> > me say this: do you think Redemptionists should not be allowed in Necro
> > games as they resemble the KKK?
>
> But they wear red robes, not white :P
But they could easily wear white.
Same goes for the Mordheim Chaos warbanders w/ hoods.
> Seriously, though, the amount of racial hatred and xenophobia in Warhammer
> 40K is so hysterical that I find people who would to take offense at the
use
> of a swastika rather amusing. As if the Emperor's troops are any better
to
> other races than the SS were..
Exactly.
If you're that sensitive, how can you stand the fluff?
Blue Raja
news:ubssi5l...@corp.supernews.com...
> I would dump the swastikas, no real reason to have them on and plenty to
> not.
Sure there is. He painted them there in the first place, ergo he thought it
looked good.
If he was to walk around giving heils and shouting "in Hitler's name" every
time he assaults, then there's grounds for complaint, but these are just
minis.
Incidentally, how do you feel about swastikas on WWII German historical
minis?
Ville Salo
666) wrote:
>
> Such 'PC' extreme position is totally silly: swastika is an old &
>universal solar symbol, used by a lot of cultures from Plain Indians
>(should I write 'Native Americans'?) to Japanese; in the same vein one
>could claim that the 6-pointed star on display on some american local
>police uniforms -as seen in some tv series, and that could be used on
>'near future street violence' SWAT minis, e.g.- is offensive as a
>sionist symbol!
Exactly. The cross is a simple enough symbol so it has probably been
used around the world for a long time, and yet if you paint your
miniatures with a cross on it, everyone would say you're making a
religious reference, some symbols simply symbolize something bad, no
matter what they have symbolized before.
--
Ville Salo
ville.salo(at)uta.fi
Lisa Grayson
I believe that it depends ultimately on the quality of the paintjob.
If the paintjob is poor, then the swastikas are there purely for shock
value, which is a bit sad really, however if the paintjob is good and
the swastika is themed into it I would keep them on. Ultimately people
who play wargames who get offended by war imagery regardless of the
social-political connotations, perhaps should reconsider there hobby.
When I was playing historical wargames with my british-american SS
korp I got absolutely no flak whatsoever despite many different nazi
symbols. The swastika appeared in ancient China, Egypt, and India. It
has been found on Greek coins, pre-Christian Celtic and Scandinavian
artifacts, the catacombs of the early Christians in Rome, and
Byzantine buildings. The swastika was widely used by American Indians.
It represented the sun and infinity. In general where the swastika is
located it has been a symbol of truth and good. The swastika itself is
not evil rather the 'actions' of the nazi party are. A lot People
cannot seperate symbolism from action, after all the union jack that
is employed on many IG armies in english GT's represents quite
possibly one of the most brutal regimes on this planet ever, yet if
one used this flag in an army there would be no complaints from the
majority of people. Take the stars and stripes as well, this is a
regime that used chemical weaponry on civilian populations in vietnam,
The Japanese flag on fantasy samurai warriors, the list could go on
and on. Ultimately it is up to you to decide what is more important,
the feelings of a few people who are offended by a historical symbol
or a unit in a WARgame that fits the flavour of the symbol.
Just my 2 Euros.
hikaru
"Pochi the Dog" <kevfr...@crapyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a9lum3$kci$1...@mail.wbs.ne.jp...
Got a guy that works with me very pissed off at me about a month ago over
that. he is black, and is always parading about in egyptian style clothing
and talking about afro-centric garbage ( if a white person where I work
talked Euro-centric crap like this, he would be written up- and eventually
fired- for being racist), and carrying on about how "whitey" is the root of
all evil. He loved to accentuate how he was "afro-American". I asked him one
day after he said that how he liked categorising himself after two "dead
white men" ( who, as we all know, are the spawns of satan). He asked me
what the hell I meant. I gave him a history lesson , involving Amerigo
Vespucci and Guais Africanus. I literally thought he was going to punch me
when I was done.
Keep the swastikas if you like. tell them you are mocking Nazis if they give
you shit.
--
Trav
hik...@rfci.diespamdie.net
RGMW Semi-Lurker at large
11/Sept/01: Never forget. Never forgive.
Ratman
>I don't want to catch shit for this paint job at the RTT.
home.
Only use them when playing with people who know you, otherwise
explaining gets more and more anoying and some people might not even
listen to you doing that.
d.e.m.
Lauri Tähkä
...How about a Taliban-themed Imperial guard army?
BobK
The swaztika was never a big symbol until the Nazi's came into it. Ocne
they adopted it, the symbol has been tainted so far that all its
previous meanings become irrelevant. I think my life will still turn
out OK even if I can't use the swaztika for my games.
I'm not really into PC but this is going too far.
Bad Bob
BobK
> Incidentally, how do you feel about swastikas on WWII German historical
> minis?
>
> --
>
> The Blue Raja
>
On historical models there would be no problem. This is an SS
trooper...this is how he dressed...
It's a totally different argument when talking Orks. They don't belong
there. Sombody is choosing to put them there.
The world saw true evil with the Nazi's. I don't think anybody has (or
will) come close to the evil of Hitler and his cronies. Not Osama (just
a thug), not Sadam (just a thug), not Tom Daschel (just a dick), maybe
Stalin (if anyone wants to voice opinion, I could go either way.)
I think we can bury the Swaztika and forget about it. Especially since
there are still survivors among us.
I'll never forget...when I was 7, my elementery school's lunch-lady had
a Ser. # tatooed on her wrist. I knew what it was but couldn't
appreciate it until I was a little older.
Swazi's on orks wouldn't offend me but I would definately wonder about a
person who chooses to paint them on the figs. At a tournement, you'd be
nuts.
Bob K
Ville Salo
>The world saw true evil with the Nazi's. I don't think anybody has (or
>will) come close to the evil of Hitler and his cronies. Not Osama (just
>a thug), not Sadam (just a thug), not Tom Daschel (just a dick), maybe
>Stalin (if anyone wants to voice opinion, I could go either way.)
Stalin was bad. Stalin wasn't quite as megalomaniac, but he was a
paranoid man with no redeeming features. The japanese regime during
WWII wasn't very nice either, they tortured and killed lots of chinese
and koreans. I think it's best that we remember that all nations and
peoples are capable of great evil. _All_ peoples.
--
Ville Salo
ville.salo(at)uta.fi
john bailey
> Swazi's on orks wouldn't offend me but I would definately wonder about a
> person who chooses to paint them on the figs. At a tournement, you'd be
> nuts.
I appreciate the spirit of the comment, and will probably paint them over
tonight, but there shouldn't be that much to wonder about- "stormboyz" - SS
Stormtroopers, throw in the 2e german-looking uniforms and the fluff about
Stormboyz marching about all the time being mocked by the other orks for
being so anal and the connection isn't that hard to make.
I originally intended to put the "SS" insignia on the back, and only did
swastikas instead because it was easier.
BTW- this is just a local RTT (San Antonio, Texas), not a GT or anything.
--
john bailey
john bailey
news:5b8f549d.02041...@posting.google.com:
> john bailey <jbai...@swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:<ubruf9...@news.supernews.com>...
>>I don't want to catch shit for this paint job at the RTT.
>
> If this really is your goal I'd advice you to leave those stormboyz at
> home.
That would actually be my solution, but I don't have time to paint up nine
more boyz and nob for my trukk mob.
--
john bailey
Miikka Lehtonen
news:f824e6dad72c9bf3d8a...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> *****Worry about them. Paint over them. I know if I was across the table
> from you, as a black man, I would refuse to play you, and we would
> probably have words.
Why? It's not as if Hitler had a special bone to pick with black people.
If you weren't tall, white and blonde you were on his list. I'm short and
I've got very dark skin. Also, my religion doesn't quite fit into his scheme
of things, yet I've got no problem with it. Now, I *do* have a huge prob-
lem with neo-nazis and fascists in general.
Miikka Lehtonen
news:3cbe1f0a$0$3902$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> me say this: do you think Redemptionists should not be allowed in Necro
> games as they resemble the KKK?
Hey, my Necro gang *does* wear white cloaks and hoods, but they have
flames painted on as their icons instead of the KKK iconography. They
are supposed to be a bunch of religious nutters who hate everyone and
everything that doesn't fit into their narrow view of what's acceptable.
Blackheart
>
>
>> Incidentally, how do you feel about swastikas on WWII German historical
>> minis?
>>
>> --
>>
>> The Blue Raja
>>
>
>On historical models there would be no problem. This is an SS
>trooper...this is how he dressed...
>It's a totally different argument when talking Orks. They don't belong
>there. Sombody is choosing to put them there.
>The world saw true evil with the Nazi's. I don't think anybody has (or
>will) come close to the evil of Hitler and his cronies. Not Osama (just
>a thug), not Sadam (just a thug), not Tom Daschel (just a dick), maybe
>Stalin (if anyone wants to voice opinion, I could go either way.)
Stalin was way more evil.. Hitler killed 4 - 6 million Jews, Poles,
Gypsies etc..
Stalin killed ~40 Million of HIS OWN PEOPLE.
George Worroll
wrote:
>a separate race. White isn't a "race", it's just a generic slang term for
>looking like
>someone of European ethnicity. I don't believe in white pride, but I am
>proud of
>my Italian, Scottish, and Cherokee ancestry.
Very good points, and generally I agree, but I don't think white pride
should be considered a racist statment.
>
George Worroll
<kevfr...@crapyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>So what if I'm proud of my pure white european ancestry?
>
>Pure?
Pure in the context of no ancestry from outside of western Europe.
Not in the sense of being pure and good and holy(that is earned by the
individual, not granted by ancestry)
>
>> AS long as I'm american first, and treat people of other ancestries as
>> their actions dictate, I should be able to stick White Pride all over
>> my car and not be harrased over it.
>
>I always wondered why Americans say African-American, or Chinese-American.
>In Australia the terms used are Australian-African, or Australian-Chinese
>which to me means they are first Australian and then the specific ethnic
>group. With the American system I get the opposite impression.
>
Good point. We should be first citizens of whatever country we are
in- if you aren't an american first, get the hell out. if you arent a
canadian first, get out of canada...etc...
>> And the confederate flag-
>> like it or not that is a legitimate part of the history and heritage
>> of the southern United States. And should be displayed and circulated
>> as a reminder of what nearly destroyed this nation. It wasn't slavery
>> per se, while that was the largest specific issue sparking it, it was
>> about states rights and how much power Washington should have to
>> interfere with the internal affairs of the individual states.
>
>I equate it to someone putting the Scottish flag on a minis shoulder. If I
>saw it I'd call them a hick.:-)
That would actually be pretty cool... hmm... maybe if I get into
Fantasy at some point I'll do a Scottish themed army. Clan Fergusson
of course. Probably from some far off corner of the empire or some
pissant little kingdom using Empire rules... The oldest existing clan
with a continuous record of existence... Others may be older of
course, when you get as far back as the original expedition when the
Scots left Ireland under Fergus Mor around 500AD records of which
clans were around are bound to be spotty. The only reason we know the
Fergussons were around then is because the Clan founder led the
expedition...
>> THat isn't meant to rail against minorities who are proud of their
>> ancestry- people of all descents have something to be proud of in
>> their cultural heritage. I just wish there wasn't a double standard
>> when it came to white pride.
>
>Watched American History X last night. Interesting movie.
Haven't seen it yet. Mainly want to cause Fairuza balk has a nude
scene...
>Sometimes a image is used intentionally to give offence and/or reaction.
>Members of my cricket team lacquered pictures of half naked women on the
>cricket bats for decoration and to offend the visiting Pakistani teams. As
>for the swastika I feel it is in bad taste. A swastika does not mean white
>pride, it means nazi, and yes I know its an ancient symbol.
Thats why I advised removing/covering it on playing minis, too manyu
problems. outside historical simulations of course, the swastika
won't add to a game and can easily take away.
Howling Fang
> Such 'PC' extreme position is totally silly: swastika is an old &
> universal solar symbol, used by a lot of cultures from Plain Indians
> (should I write 'Native Americans'?)
Yes please...indians are from India.
George Worroll
Grayson) wrote:
<snip>
>Just my 2 Euros.
Erik, that was bad. First photoshoping my SAT results and doing a
horrid job at it, then this. The writing style was dead on to your
style when writing of political/religious/historical issues. And your
random use of European terminology at the end there.
When creating a false identity, its generally best not just to have
positions different from your own identity, but you should make an
effort to write in a different style.
George Worroll
(Blackheart) wrote:
>>On historical models there would be no problem. This is an SS
>>trooper...this is how he dressed...
>>It's a totally different argument when talking Orks. They don't belong
>>there. Sombody is choosing to put them there.
>>The world saw true evil with the Nazi's. I don't think anybody has (or
>>will) come close to the evil of Hitler and his cronies. Not Osama (just
>>a thug), not Sadam (just a thug), not Tom Daschel (just a dick), maybe
>>Stalin (if anyone wants to voice opinion, I could go either way.)
>
>Stalin was way more evil.. Hitler killed 4 - 6 million Jews, Poles,
>Gypsies etc..
>
>Stalin killed ~40 Million of HIS OWN PEOPLE.
Devils advocate here-
Which leader successfully repelled foreign invaders, preserving
national pride and sovereingty? STalin.
Which leader presided over a nation with less internal dissent?
Stalin.
I don't view Stalin so much as immoral.. though he certainly was... I
think he was more of an amoral person, he kept the peace in the Soviet
union by any and all necesary means without regard to teh morality or
lack thereof of his methods. Both of those things above are GOOD
things Stalin did... though, any remotely decent individual would
agree he went too far in securing the second at least... as for the
first, if you are facing potential annihilation, alot of morals go out
the window...
john bailey
> I don't view Stalin so much as immoral.. though he certainly was... I
> think he was more of an amoral person, he kept the peace in the Soviet
> union by any and all necesary means without regard to teh morality or
> lack thereof of his methods.
Keeping the peace was not his goal. Keeping personal power was his goal-
e.g. the purges.
--
john bailey
Ville Salo
<ctrav...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Which leader successfully repelled foreign invaders, preserving
>national pride and sovereingty? STalin.
And attacked countries simply do to his own paranoia. I don't know
much about pre-WWII Russia, but I do suspect that had there not been
Stalin, the country would have done better.
>Which leader presided over a nation with less internal dissent?
Less internal dissent? Yes he killed everyone he thought were thinking
differently. I can't understand how you see this as a positive
argument.
>I don't view Stalin so much as immoral.. though he certainly was... I
>think he was more of an amoral person, he kept the peace in the Soviet
>union by any and all necesary means without regard to teh morality or
>lack thereof of his methods.
No he was paranoid and he didn't do what he did to preserve the Soviet
Union. He did it to preserve his own power. He had people killed
because he thought they were plotting against him etc. And forcibly
moving people around the country and in the process killing dozens of
milliions of people was not necessary.
> Both of those things above are GOOD
>things Stalin did... though, any remotely decent individual would
>agree he went too far in securing the second at least... as for the
>first, if you are facing potential annihilation, alot of morals go out
>the window...
Russia wasn't even too bad in the war, they didn't bomb all that many
civilians (compared to the other warring nations).
--
Ville Salo
ville.salo(at)uta.fi
John Hwang
>Incidentally, how do you feel about swastikas on WWII
>German historical minis?
Only if historically accurate, but if so, mandatory.
Don't muck with history.
--- John Hwang "JohnHw...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
Darth Tear
"abdul 666" <phyt...@biomserv.univ-lyon1.fr> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:21bd1f61.02041...@posting.google.com...
>
> Such 'PC' extreme position is totally silly: swastika is an old &
> universal solar symbol, used by a lot of cultures from Plain Indians
> (should I write 'Native Americans'?) to Japanese;
I dont think it's so silly, since the kind of swastica you mention is
oriented counter-clockwise. The nazi swastica was oriented clockwise. Now
the original poster didnt specify which one was painted on the models, but
it is more than clear that he was worried about his swasticas nazi's
appearance. I ignore wether he was or not aware of the clockwise or counter
clockwise great importance in showing the simbol, but either way, the
swastica is commonly associated with nazism, also because the difference
between the 2 simbols is not so obvious.
Even if he painted the "good" (counterclock) swastica, at a first glance I'd
think "Look, what a squalid nazi mention", and not "Look, what an
interesting use of an ancient simbol of power and energy, showing knowledge
and respect for ancient cultures"...got it? So, no matter about the
intention, those swasticas look out of place to me.
> And, unless you meet people specially deprived of
> humour, I think you'd be in more risk of being considered as a nazi
> when wargaming WWII Germans than cartoonesque Orks with swastikas:
> after all, Orks are stupid and ridiculous, so give them what could be
> seen as nazi heraldry is an anti-nazi manifesto.
Could be, as it could be not. Instead of specifying to every player that I
painted them to joke and mock nazis and not because I like what that simbol
represents, I'd rather not paint them at all.
--
--
DarkTear
"No! Try not.
Do. Or do not.
There is no try."
--
rzrsedge
"George Worroll" <ctrav...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6grtbugdm3kerp3j4...@4ax.com...
rzrsedge
"Howling Fang" <mric...@iknowledge.com> wrote in message
news:bmCv8.1665$eC.241188@localhost...
don't like the term Native American. They consider it a guilty white term.
If you want to avoid problems you can use the persons name or use their
specific tribe affiliation.
Avatar
:
: I'd say yes, you should...no matter if you painted them years ago, swasticas
: on anything except WW2 german model show terribly bad taste, at least. I'd
: remove them, if not for the risk of offending other people, at least to be
: sure not to be considered a nazi.
If someone is so easily offended that small swastikas on the backs of ork
stormboyz offend them, they really need to seek counciling. The orks,
back in the day, had a pretty significant trend to parady to nazi look,
before the orks all turned feral. Its a miniature in a game. Get the
hell over it people.
As long as we let such insignificant little symbols and their appearance
cause a ruckus they will never go away. I have an IG army I am working
that is being painted like a german wehrmacht force using 1/35 scale
german tanks for the vehicles. Why?? Because as an historical modeler as
I well I felt like working on a project that was along those lines, but
still kept me working with 40k. I think I'd laugh my ass off if someone
got offended by my army. It is ludicrous to do so. Its only an army of
little toy soldiers, not a nazi propaganda tool...
Avatar
Avatar
: I'd personally remove it, these are minis meant for playing use, and
: if your paint job offends people you decrease the fun of the game for
: all concerned... ITs your call, if you want to keep the swastikas
: then as long as tournament rules allow it then go for it. But for a
: public tournament my advice would be to cover them up to avoid offense
: and unnecesary tension ruining the fun of the tournament.
ACtually its not his paint job that decreases the fun of the game for all
concerned. It is the narrowmindedness of an opponent who would see
something so insignificant and get so offended by it as to cause a stink
during the game. *That* is what would decrease the fun for all. And that
isn't limited to just paint jobs. There are plenty of things that could
make an opponent bitch and gripe through the whole game ruining the
experience for all concerned. They are just poor sports, regardless of
the circumstances that set them off, unless they opponent came out and
made it their mission to immediately offend them and make them miserable.
IMNSHO, swastikas painted on the back of stormboyz doesn't even come
remotely close to such a thing.
: If they were for a display, I'd say fuck what others think and leave
: it that way. Display miniatures are about art, playing miniatures are
: about fun. At least thats how I see it. Though of course there is
: some crossover... but swastikas can cause enough problems that I think
: they should be left off of playing armies and relegated to the display
: case. Still, the most I'd say if facing an army with swastikas is
: that I don't agree with it, explain why, and then I'd proceed to get
: on with the game
Why is it OK if they are for display. Someone could come along and look
and them and be just as upset as if they saw them on the table. The most
I'd do if I saw swastikas is think, 'what ever', and as long as the
opponent behaved in a polite and friendly fashion I wouldn't care in the
slightest. It doesn't even require a comment of "I don't like swastikas."
That sets an unplesant "I'm better than you, because..." aspect to the
opponent relationship that totally spoils the fun.
Avatar
Avatar
: On historical models there would be no problem. This is an SS
: trooper...this is how he dressed...
: It's a totally different argument when talking Orks. They don't belong
: there. Sombody is choosing to put them there.
I guess you'll be really offended by my IG army then. Having a desire for
a historical project it is painted up as a wehrmacht force with WWII
complete with WWII 1/35 scale german tanks and vehicles. There are german
army markings everywhere. Some of those include swastikas. Its the
nature of the beast, and *my* choice to use them, not your decision to
keep me from using them.
: The world saw true evil with the Nazi's. I don't think anybody has (or
: will) come close to the evil of Hitler and his cronies. Not Osama (just
: a thug), not Sadam (just a thug), not Tom Daschel (just a dick), maybe
: Stalin (if anyone wants to voice opinion, I could go either way.)
: I think we can bury the Swaztika and forget about it. Especially since
: there are still survivors among us.
Oooo. True evil...There isn't anything the Nazi's did when in power than
umpteen other groups have done throughout history. They just used
different methods. Many civilizations subjugated others and enslaved them
and slaughtered them in the name of racial purity. In fact right now
there are numberous places where that self same thing is happening in the
world. Get over the whole "nazi" thing. Obsessing about nazis is what
lets people like Milosevic get into power and do his thing because people
are so obsessed with the past that they can't see the racial cleansing
happening in their own time.
: I'll never forget...when I was 7, my elementery school's lunch-lady had
: a Ser. # tatooed on her wrist. I knew what it was but couldn't
: appreciate it until I was a little older.
And I have sympathy for anyone who suffered through such a horrible thing.
I also have sympathy for anyone who has been forced to live through a
significant war in their own home or country. Doesn't stop me from
playing *war* games, though. See as a human being I can rationally
explore the tactical aspects of war on the table top and at the same abhor
killing in the real world.
Sadly some people who I've known who have those serial numbers tattooed on
their wrists also have the same attitudes about palestinians as the nazis
had about jews when they got their tattoo. How is that for not learning a
thing from what is supposedly one of the most horrific events in all
history??
: Swazi's on orks wouldn't offend me but I would definately wonder about a
: person who chooses to paint them on the figs. At a tournement, you'd be
: nuts.
Interesting, but judging from your comments I would expect that they would
offend you...you seem to be taking that tack. My wonder would last as
long as it took to greet them. A polite friendly person is not someone to
be wondering and worrying about. Just play your game and enjoy yourself.
One could easily wonder about you for playing wargames in the first place.
Avatar
Robert Williams
"rzrsedge" <kgam...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:NXEv8.100928$K5.82...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Red Indians.
Rob
>
>
Mikael Halila
>
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 16:05:53 GMT, blackh...@nothome.com
> (Blackheart) wrote:
>
> >Stalin was way more evil.. Hitler killed 4 - 6 million Jews, Poles,
> >Gypsies etc..
> >
> >Stalin killed ~40 Million of HIS OWN PEOPLE.
>
> Devils advocate here-
>
> Which leader successfully repelled foreign invaders, preserving
> national pride and sovereingty? STalin.
If you take a look at Soviet military history, it would be much fairer
to say that the USSR won in spite of Stalin, not because of him. And
military accomplishments are no excuse for being an inhuman dictator;
Hitler's Wehrmacht did some pretty damned amazing things from a military
standpoint, bt it doesn't make Hitler any better as a person.
> Which leader presided over a nation with less internal dissent?
> Stalin.
I can't believe you just said that. Of course there was no internal
dissent; if you disagreed with the Party you were shot or locked away!
Even petty dictators can maintain a country with no internal dissent if
they've got enough thugs with guns. This is definitely not an
accomplishment.
> I don't view Stalin so much as immoral.. though he certainly was... I
> think he was more of an amoral person, he kept the peace in the Soviet
> union by any and all necesary means without regard to teh morality or
> lack thereof of his methods.
> Both of those things above are GOOD
> things Stalin did... though, any remotely decent individual would
> agree he went too far in securing the second at least...
I find it completely abhorrent that you consider "internal peace" like
that an achievement.
> as for the
> first, if you are facing potential annihilation, alot of morals go out
> the window...
That's complete rubbish. Stalin's handling of the 1941-45 war is not the
issue here; it's his whole reign of terror over the USSR and its
neighbors, during which he had an estimated 20-40 million people killed.
The fact that he was at war for some of the time is not an excuse.
Stalin was an absolutely inhuman monster; human lives meant nothing to
him when there were personal or Party objectives to be fulfilled.
--
Mikael Halila, #118
--
Proud citizen of Dogbertland - Champion of the titanic .sig
"This guy is certainly the dude of the retards."
-Robert Singers, RGMW
"Hey, everyone is a bit bi. I just haven't found the guy I want to
guzzle the semen of."
-someone, RGMW
Masterful troll response #1:
"I'm not wrong. You're an idiot."
_____
Viikon Linnanvuori:
"Utilitarismia voidaan pitää yhdenlaisena luonnonoikeutena tai tulkita
sellaiseksi."
_____
Mikael the Eccentric St:14 Dx:10 Co:8 In:10 Wi:10 Ch:8
Dlvl:0 $:0 HP:20(20) Pw:0(0) AC:9 Xp:1/2 T:19 Conf
Igor
>> >I always wondered why Americans say African-American, or
Chinese-American.
> >In Australia the terms used are Australian-African, or Australian-Chinese
> >which to me means they are first Australian and then the specific ethnic
> >group. With the American system I get the opposite impression.
> >
>
> Good point. We should be first citizens of whatever country we are
> in- if you aren't an american first, get the hell out. if you arent a
> canadian first, get out of canada...etc...
Are you serious?
I sure ain't Belgian first and i'm not planning to get the hell out.
If i'd like to live in the States, no way would i be an American
first, but would that be a reason to kick me out?
I'm Ief first and that would go above being a Utopian if such a place
would exist.
The only exception i'd make is that whoever isn't human first, should
be kicked of this planet. (and no i'm not pro death sentence)
Igor
George Worroll
<mikael...@pp.inet.fi> wrote:
>> Devils advocate here-
>I find it completely abhorrent that you consider "internal peace" like
>that an achievement.
You might not have understood my intent, when one plays devils
advocate, he deliberately brings up the viewpoint opposite the
majority to foster discussion... not necesarily a view the individual
agrees with, but one that will spark discussion.
>Stalin was an absolutely inhuman monster; human lives meant nothing to
>him when there were personal or Party objectives to be fulfilled.
Definitely agreed, even Hitler had more redeeming qualities than
Stalin.
Myrmidon
kgam...@comcast.net, rzrsedge shouted out the following words of wit...
That's odd... I know many folks of Native American desent who much
prefer that term, and they really dislike the term 'indian' for the
simple fact as they put it "We know who we are - it was Columbus that
was lost when he got here."
Myr
--
"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To paint your miniatures, to see them driven before you on the table,
and to hear the lamentation of the cheese-mongers!"
- Del Webb
RGMW FAQ: http://www.rgmw.org
Or...
Blue Raja
news:a9mnq3$8ri$1...@tron.sci.fi...
> "Blue Raja" <the_bl...@dingoblue.net.au.spamless> wrote in message
> news:3cbe1f0a$0$3902$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > As for the significance and possible repurcussions of the symbol itself,
let
> > me say this: do you think Redemptionists should not be allowed in Necro
> > games as they resemble the KKK?
>
> Hey, my Necro gang *does* wear white cloaks and hoods, but they have
> flames painted on as their icons instead of the KKK iconography.
So would you repaint them if you were to play in a tourney, given that
someone could associate them with the KKK?
--
The Blue Raja
"We tried to stop her by hitting her fists and feet with our faces, but...
" - Gunn
RGMW FAQ - Just read the damn thing
http://www.sheppard.demon.co.uk/rgmw_faq/rgmw_faq.htm
Blue Raja
news:3CBEC382...@kotus.fi...
> > >I don't want to catch shit for this paint job at the RTT.
> >
> > If this really is your goal I'd advice you to leave those stormboyz at
> > home.
> > explaining gets more and more anoying and some people might not even
> > listen to you doing that.
>
> ...How about a Taliban-themed Imperial guard army?
That reminds me of something I've done actually...
Around Christmas, I converted a few "Ork-Qaida" boyz (Orks w/ beards and
turbans). Would it be inappropriate to use these at a tourney?
Blue Raja
<snip>
> Its a miniature in a game. Get the
> hell over it people.
Exactly my point.
Some people have said that they wouldn't put the symbol on in the first
place: well that's not an option, it's already there. Removing it smacks of
censorship.
But I suppose as far as those people are concerned I'm a Commie for playing
Red Alert, and a terrorist for making al-Qaida themed Orks.
Berto
"Avatar" <ava...@netaxs.com> wrote in message news:a9nb2l$f...@netaxs.com...
>
Just reading the threads regarding whether you should remove the swastikas
or not and the amount of polarization that it has caused should give you a
clue as to how normal people will agree to disagree. Unfortunately, some of
these people quite rudely or violently.
Since everyone is giving their opinion, the minis are meant to be played
with. The swastikas are a symbol of a group of reactionaries that IMHO were
the Devil themselves. I am an American. I was born in Cuba, I came from
there after Castro took over with his barbudos (the bearded ones). These
people wore a black band with a red/green diamond with the number 26. These
barbudos murdered and jailed some of my families. We would watch how they
were lined up in front of a shallow grave and shot. This memory is etched in
my soul and anyone that would display such a symbol to me, regardless of
their "artistic" gesture, would only make me feel the anguish, anger of a
race of demons. To a person that is Polish, or of jewish belief it would be
nothing more than asking them to relive what their grandfathers and
grandmothers told them. BTW, I fought for this countryin the military and I
did not fight for a flag, confederate or otherwise. I fought for the
Constitution. That is my flag and the flag of all Americans. Please, John,
for some of us who do have memories of bad or evil men who murdered, jailed
people for nothing more than their religion, color or race, dont do it.
Enjoy the wonderful game and make new friends. I am sorry for my lengthy
discourse, but words, deeds, symbols do incite and create the divisions that
we see today. Paint them a race of clowns. Now that would be an army!! :)
And beat the crap out of them and enjoy a Pesi later.
Thank you for allowing me to vent. have not thought of this for 35 years.
God Bless.
Berto
rzrsedge
"Myrmidon" <Im...@home.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.172928471...@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> In article <NXEv8.100928$K5.82...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,
> kgam...@comcast.net, rzrsedge shouted out the following words of wit...
> >
> > "Howling Fang" <mric...@iknowledge.com> wrote in message
> > news:bmCv8.1665$eC.241188@localhost...
> > > <snip>
> > > > Such 'PC' extreme position is totally silly: swastika is an old &
> > > > universal solar symbol, used by a lot of cultures from Plain Indians
> > > > (should I write 'Native Americans'?)
> > >
> > > Yes please...indians are from India.
> > >
> > That's oversimplifying it. Many individuals that are indigenous
Americans
> > don't like the term Native American. They consider it a guilty white
term.
> > If you want to avoid problems you can use the persons name or use their
> > specific tribe affiliation.
> >
>
> That's odd... I know many folks of Native American desent who much
> prefer that term, and they really dislike the term 'indian' for the
> simple fact as they put it "We know who we are - it was Columbus that
> was lost when he got here."
>
to use, go by the tribal affiliation or go through the trouble of learning
the persons name.
Erik Setzer
> Erik, that was bad. First photoshoping my SAT results and doing a
> horrid job at it, then this. The writing style was dead on to your
> style when writing of political/religious/historical issues. And your
> random use of European terminology at the end there.
Eh... the "knowledge" of the subject should have told you it wasn't
me. I'm a bit off on just where the swastika has shown up in history,
I have to admit.
If someone's going to try to make things look like me, they should
remember I have a good number of shortcomings when it comes to
history, which really *isn't* my area of expertise.
-Erik
Blue Raja
> > That's odd... I know many folks of Native American desent who much
> > prefer that term, and they really dislike the term 'indian' for the
> > simple fact as they put it "We know who we are - it was Columbus that
> > was lost when he got here."
> >
> Exactly, so instead of wandering through the muck of which of the two
terms
> to use, go by the tribal affiliation or go through the trouble of learning
> the persons name.
What if you need to refer to the race as a whole?
Justin Taylor
(it was a nazi party symbol, not an army one). However in some European
countries display of the swastika is an criminal offence. I appreciate that
Americans might not feel so upset by the nazis (after all to them the war
was 6000 miles away) but many Europeans would be deeply offended and would
be equivalent to wearing a sign saying "I hate niggers" whilst walking in
Harlem (you see the film?).
As I said no good reason to have them, so unless you are going for nazi
party Orks, I would dump them.
Mikael Halila
>
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 21:43:44 GMT, Mikael Halila
> <mikael...@pp.inet.fi> wrote:
>
> >> Devils advocate here-
> >I find it completely abhorrent that you consider "internal peace" like
> >that an achievement.
>
> You might not have understood my intent, when one plays devils
> advocate, he deliberately brings up the viewpoint opposite the
> majority to foster discussion... not necesarily a view the individual
> agrees with, but one that will spark discussion.
I did actually understand it, but having quite a commitment to
principles like human rights I had to make this point clear.
Unfortunately, defending Stalin is not going to get you many brownie
points from the Finns on this group, even if you only do it for the sake
of the debate.
> >Stalin was an absolutely inhuman monster; human lives meant nothing to
> >him when there were personal or Party objectives to be fulfilled.
>
> Definitely agreed, even Hitler had more redeeming qualities than
> Stalin.
I'm glad we agree on this.
Alan and Carmel Brain
"BobK" <bad...@optonline.net> wrote >
>
> > Incidentally, how do you feel about swastikas on WWII German historical
> > minis?
>
> trooper...this is how he dressed...
> It's a totally different argument when talking Orks. They don't belong
Actually, the Swastika is the Ork Glyph for "Stormboy".
(Source: Freebooterz IIRC)
Though it's not in http://www.mark.deweese.com/40k/Orky.ttf
Pochi the Dog
Igor wrote in message
> George Worroll wrote in message
> >> >I always wondered why Americans say African-American, or
> Chinese-American.
> > >In Australia the terms used are Australian-African, or
Australian-Chinese
> > >which to me means they are first Australian and then the specific
ethnic
> > >group. With the American system I get the opposite impression.
> > >
> >
> > Good point. We should be first citizens of whatever country we are
> > in- if you aren't an american first, get the hell out. if you arent a
> > canadian first, get out of canada...etc...
>
> Are you serious?
I am a resident of Japan and a citizen of Australia and New Zealand. I'm not
Japan first but not getting the hell out. The Japanese Government has given
me the legal right to stay in Japan as resident status not as a citizen.
This means I am denied certain benefits (unemployment benefit, certain
credit, legal rights etc) effectively making me a second class citizen but
thats the deal when you're a foreigner. If I don't like it I can get the
hell out. Along with freedom of speech, I like freedom of movement.
> I sure ain't Belgian first and i'm not planning to get the hell out.
> If i'd like to live in the States, no way would i be an American
> first, but would that be a reason to kick me out?
Did you do your paperwork?
>
<snip>
> The only exception i'd make is that whoever isn't human first, should
> be kicked of this planet. (and no i'm not pro death sentence)
>
Save the Whale
Ratman
But it was not chosen very wisely in the first place.
d.e.m.
john bailey
news:zXLv8.7266$HK4.1...@twister.kc.rr.com:
> Please,
> John, for some of us who do have memories of bad or evil men who
> murdered, jailed people for nothing more than their religion, color or
> race, dont do it. Enjoy the wonderful game and make new friends. I am
> sorry for my lengthy discourse, but words, deeds, symbols do incite
> and create the divisions that we see today. Paint them a race of
> clowns. Now that would be an army!! :) And beat the crap out of them
> and enjoy a Pesi later.
That certainly convinced me.
I guess, Berto, that in this country for those of us who are categorized as
"white" who have not personally (or whose families have not) experienced
that sort of violent oppression these symbols have no personal connection
so we do not appreciate the impact or meaning that they can have for
others. I can however imagine how I would feel about seeing a symbol on a
mini that I once saw on the uniform of a man murdering a family member in
front of my face.
But I don't think I'll be taking up the clown suggestion.... :)
--
john bailey
George Worroll
<kevfr...@crapyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Igor wrote in message
>> George Worroll wrote in message
>> >> >I always wondered why Americans say African-American, or
>> Chinese-American.
>> > >In Australia the terms used are Australian-African, or
>Australian-Chinese
>> > >which to me means they are first Australian and then the specific
>ethnic
>> > >group. With the American system I get the opposite impression.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Good point. We should be first citizens of whatever country we are
>> > in- if you aren't an american first, get the hell out. if you arent a
>> > canadian first, get out of canada...etc...
>>
>> Are you serious?
>
>I am a resident of Japan and a citizen of Australia and New Zealand. I'm not
>Japan first but not getting the hell out. The Japanese Government has given
>me the legal right to stay in Japan as resident status not as a citizen.
>This means I am denied certain benefits (unemployment benefit, certain
>credit, legal rights etc) effectively making me a second class citizen but
>thats the deal when you're a foreigner. If I don't like it I can get the
>hell out. Along with freedom of speech, I like freedom of movement.
My point is, if you are in a country, holding citizenship and drawing
that countries citizens only benefites, you should place your national
loyalty to that nation. It you draw the benefits of a citizen without
supporting the country, that is what is wrong. Basically, if you hold
citizenship in a coutry you do not feel loyal to, you should first do
some serious thought, if you still cannot feel loyalty, you should
work on leaving ASAP and going to a country that you could feel loyal
and right in supporting. If you are living in a country other than
where you hold citizenship, and can accept whatever restrictions the
host government places on non citizens, thats fine.
Note that what is important is feeling loyal to the country, not
necesarily its government. Some of the greatest heros in American
history made their mark and improved the United States by standing up
against the government.
john bailey
Must be where I got the idea in the first place....
I'll use a black lightning bolt instead.
--
john bailey
Blue Raja
<snip>
> Note that what is important is feeling loyal to the country, not
> necesarily its government. Some of the greatest heros in American
> history made their mark and improved the United States by standing up
> against the government.
Sorry, but I don't understand the difference.
Are you saying you should feel loyal to a particular land-mass in order to
live there? Surely one land-mass inspires as much loyalty as any other?
Avatar
: I cannot think of many places on historical minis that would have swastikas
: (it was a nazi party symbol, not an army one). However in some European
: countries display of the swastika is an criminal offence. I appreciate that
: Americans might not feel so upset by the nazis (after all to them the war
: was 6000 miles away) but many Europeans would be deeply offended and would
: be equivalent to wearing a sign saying "I hate niggers" whilst walking in
: Harlem (you see the film?).
Every SS trooper had a swastika on his helmet. Every german paratrooper
has a swastika held by an eagle on his own helmet and it goes on and on.
The symbol was quite prevelant. Europeans are still very touchy on the
subject. Europeans also ban and disallow a lot of things that I think are
pretty stupid to disallow, and are lacking in some of the basic freedoms
that our Constitution is supposed to protect.
: As I said no good reason to have them, so unless you are going for nazi
: party Orks, I would dump them.
:
Your opinion, plain and simple.
Avatar
Avatar
:
: Sorry, but I don't understand the difference.
: Are you saying you should feel loyal to a particular land-mass in order to
: live there? Surely one land-mass inspires as much loyalty as any other?
I do believe the point is that one can support the American Ideal and the
Constitution but still hate a president like Clinton who currently is the
head honcho of the government. There are people in Cuba who do not
support or like Fidel, but they believe in Cuba and its future.
At least I think that is the point that is being made.
Avatar
Pochi the Dog
George Worroll wrote in message
> that countries citizens only benefites, you should place your national
you do not feel loyal to, you should first do
> some serious thought, if you still cannot feel loyalty, you should
> work on leaving ASAP and going to a country that you could feel loyal
> and right in supporting.
Erm, are you're pro-illegal aliens.
> If you are living in a country other than
> where you hold citizenship, and can accept whatever restrictions the
> host government places on non citizens, thats fine.
>
Erm, so you're anti-illegal aliens.
> Note that what is important is feeling loyal to the country, not
> necesarily its government. Some of the greatest heros in American
> history made their mark and improved the United States by standing up
> against the government.
>
My American history stopped in school when the British got kicked out except
the part when the Red Coats trashed Washington. The rest of world however
has its own heros who stood up against the government i.e. Cromwell, Ho Chi
Min, Mao Zedong, Ned Kelly.
Pochi the Dog
Blue Raja wrote in message
> "George Worroll" wrote in message
> > Note that what is important is feeling loyal to the country, not
> > necesarily its government. Some of the greatest heros in American
> > history made their mark and improved the United States by standing up
> > against the government.
>
> Sorry, but I don't understand the difference.
I see a big difference. I feel loyal to Australia because of the my friends,
the pubs, the lifestyle etc. My dealings with the government was
...well...rare. My biggest deal with the federal government was taxes which
does not bred loyalty.
> Are you saying you should feel loyal to a particular land-mass in order to
> live there? Surely one land-mass inspires as much loyalty as any other?
>
I get more inspired looking at the backside of a sheep than a backside of a
camel.
Mikael Halila
>
> Blue Raja wrote in message
>
> > live there? Surely one land-mass inspires as much loyalty as any other?
> >
> I get more inspired looking at the backside of a sheep than a backside of a
> camel.
Stop trying to turn Blue Raja on.
Justin Taylor
model'. I think they had swastikas on their belt buckles but I am not trying
to be picky about it. The point is they would not be depicted on historical
models of the same scale which we are playing (which was the original point
being made).
Berto
"Insane Ranter" <n...@spam.net> wrote in message
news:6erv8.114113$gA5.8...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
>
> "Ducalguard" <ducal...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020417221848...@mb-mv.aol.com...
> > >Should I worry about the swastikas or blow it off and leave them as is?
> >
> > I'd leave em. Myself, I painted SS emblems on my old style orks
> because
> > they were, afterall stormboyz, and the uniforms weren't just similar to
> WWII
> > nazi uniforms, they WERE WWII nazi uniforms, all the way down to the
> Kaptain
> > with the German Kommander's hat, eyepatch and pistol. Personally, I
don't
> buy
> > into political correctness, its all bullshit in my book.
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Read this
>
> http://www.uni-erfurt.de/nordamerika/literatur/roosevelt.htm
>
> And tell us if you think Teddy R. was on the right track.
>
This is a thread from my previous message and john's answer. i do believe in
removing the Hyphen in all of us to try to identify us "better". We are not
a melting pot but a salad with a lot of unique bits in it that create that
unique plate called Americans. Here is the response to political
correctness:
> Please,
> John, for some of us who do have memories of bad or evil men who
> murdered, jailed people for nothing more than their religion, color or
> sorry for my lengthy discourse, but words, deeds, symbols do incite
> and create the divisions that we see today. Paint them a race of
> clowns. Now that would be an army!! :) And beat the crap out of them
>That certainly convinced me.
>I guess, Berto, that in this country for those of us who are categorized as
>"white" who have not personally (or whose families have not) experienced
>that sort of violent oppression these symbols have no personal connection
>so we do not appreciate the impact or meaning that they can have for
>others. I can however imagine how I would feel about seeing a symbol on a
>mini that I once saw on the uniform of a man murdering a family member in
>front of my face.
>But I don't think I'll be taking up the clown suggestion.... :)
--
>john bailey
What I will finish with is that people that really do not understand or have
seen the atrocities of these killers, would at least listen to others that
say that it would be "politically correct" to say this and not that for
decency's sake. I call it etiquette, not bullshit. John was right on point
and all I will say that maybe we need to insert every the words "personal
connection" (see John's statement above), for political correctness, and it
may slow down the banter that some people may say that we may take this
symbols too seriously and all of this is bullshit, and how it should not
hurt our feelings seeing swastikas, numbers on forearms, etc. I am sorry,
but it does, because you see, I have a "personal connection". Thanks, John
for those great words, and I still think a crazy clown army and led by Bozo
may get you noticed more. :)
Thank you,
Berto
Robert Singers
> Save the Whale
Harpoon an equal tonnage of Japanese.
Blue Raja
That's what I thought to, but I was thinking of "the Government" more as a
static entity, and as such disagreeing with "the Government" would be
disagreeing with your country's constitution (they wrote it in the first
place).
Blue Raja
news:a9ps9s$m6n$1...@mail.wbs.ne.jp...
> > Are you saying you should feel loyal to a particular land-mass in order
to
> > live there? Surely one land-mass inspires as much loyalty as any other?
> >
> I get more inspired looking at the backside of a sheep than a backside of
a
> camel.
Are you from Tassie? I'd prefer neither.
J Sakari Salonen
> Justin Taylor (jus...@globalnet.co.uk) wrote:
> : I cannot think of many places on historical minis that would have swastikas
> : (it was a nazi party symbol, not an army one). However in some European
> : countries display of the swastika is an criminal offence. I appreciate that
> : Americans might not feel so upset by the nazis (after all to them the war
> : was 6000 miles away) but many Europeans would be deeply offended and would
> : be equivalent to wearing a sign saying "I hate niggers" whilst walking in
> : Harlem (you see the film?).
> Every SS trooper had a swastika on his helmet. Every german paratrooper
> has a swastika held by an eagle on his own helmet and it goes on and on.
> The symbol was quite prevelant. Europeans are still very touchy on the
> subject. Europeans also ban and disallow a lot of things that I think are
> pretty stupid to disallow, and are lacking in some of the basic freedoms
> that our Constitution is supposed to protect.
The WW2 models where one would probably see very large swastikas are German
and Finnish aircraft. Apart from the Luftwaffe symbols, a remember seeing
large swastikas in the tails of many German WW2 aircraft, and in Finland it
was the symbol of the air force.
--
J. Sakari Salonen / ssal...@cc.helsinki.fi
Pochi the Dog
Blue Raja wrote in message ...
> "Pochi the Dog" wrote in message
> > > Are you saying you should feel loyal to a particular land-mass in
order
> to
> > > live there? Surely one land-mass inspires as much loyalty as any
other?
> > >
> > I get more inspired looking at the backside of a sheep than a backside
of
> a
> > camel.
>
> Are you from Tassie? I'd prefer neither.
>
before going into the real world of the farm.
What do you call an Australian with twenty blonde lovers?
A liar
What do you call a Kiwi with twenty blonde lovers?
A Shepherd
What's the name of the new Kiwi aftershave?
Mint Sauce
Pochi the Dog
Robert Singers wrote in message ...
> "Pochi the Dog" wrote
> > Save the Whale
>
> Harpoon an equal tonnage of Japanese.
>
In was only twenty years ago whalemeat was the mainstay of school lunches.
Now whalemeat is not available in the supermarkets, but dolphin is.
Blue Raja
> > > I get more inspired looking at the backside of a sheep than a backside
> of
> > a
> > > camel.
> >
> > Are you from Tassie? I'd prefer neither.
> >
> Don't knock till you try it. Best to practice with inflatable sheep first
> before going into the real world of the farm.
Good point, wouldn't want to hurt myself.
<snip>
> What do you call a Kiwi with twenty blonde lovers?
> A Shepherd
>
> What's the name of the new Kiwi aftershave?
> Mint Sauce
Someone else to pick on Singers with... excellent...
Pochi the Dog
Blue Raja wrote in message ...
> "Pochi the Dog" wrote in message
backside
> > of
> > > a
> > > > camel.
> > >
> > > Are you from Tassie? I'd prefer neither.
> > >
> > Don't knock till you try it. Best to practice with inflatable sheep
first
> > before going into the real world of the farm.
>
> Good point, wouldn't want to hurt myself.
>
> <snip>
> > What do you call a Kiwi with twenty blonde lovers?
> > A Shepherd
> >
> > What's the name of the new Kiwi aftershave?
> > Mint Sauce
>
Your thongs are missing and the cat's been raped.
What's geographically wrong with Australia?
It's above water.
> Someone else to pick on Singers with... excellent...
>
Pity he's not blonde...
Alan and Carmel Brain
"john bailey" <jbai...@swbell.net> wrote
> "Alan and Carmel Brain" <aeb...@webone.com.au>
>
> > "BobK" <bad...@optonline.net>
> >> It's a totally different argument when talking Orks. They don't
> >> belong there
> >
> > Actually, the Swastika is the Ork Glyph for "Stormboy".
> > (Source: Freebooterz IIRC)
> Must be where I got the idea in the first place....
>
> I'll use a black lightning bolt instead.
Thereby retaining the Orkiness and avoiding giving un-neccessary
offense. There's a time to stand up for "Freedom of Speech" when
it's important, and a time to be just a little over-considerate of
others feelings when it's no big deal, and might add just a little
extra happiness to the world.
Good on you, Mr Bailey.
bONDO
me that there was a division of Army Rangers who used it in the US prior to
it becoming . . unpopular.
Bondo
"Alan and Carmel Brain" <aeb...@webone.com.au> wrote in message
news:3cbfe122$1...@iridium.webone.com.au...
Miikka Lehtonen
news:3cbf73ef$0$15472$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> So would you repaint them if you were to play in a tourney, given that
> someone could associate them with the KKK?
No. I would assume that they know the Necromunda background and
know that the Redemptionists make the KKK look like a kindergarten
fun club. I would also assume that they could distinguish the difference
between a game and reality.
Miikka Lehtonen
> Around Christmas, I converted a few "Ork-Qaida" boyz (Orks w/ beards and
> turbans). Would it be inappropriate to use these at a tourney?
*I* wouldn't have a problem with it. In fact, I would probably laugh with
you. Now, if you had the Orks carrying signs saying something like "Take
that, WTC bitches!" or something similiar, I'd probably be pissed off at
you. That would be disrespecting the dead and generally in horrible taste.
Mikael Halila
>
> The WW2 models where one would probably see very large swastikas are German
> and Finnish aircraft. Apart from the Luftwaffe symbols, a remember seeing
> large swastikas in the tails of many German WW2 aircraft, and in Finland it
> was the symbol of the air force.
...except that the Finnish swastika is the other way round and has short
arms, thus being immediately distinguishable from a Nazi swastika.
Blue Raja
news:a9r63g$h4r$1...@tron.sci.fi...
> > So would you repaint them if you were to play in a tourney, given that
> > someone could associate them with the KKK?
>
> No. I would assume that they know the Necromunda background and
> know that the Redemptionists make the KKK look like a kindergarten
> fun club. I would also assume that they could distinguish the difference
> between a game and reality.
Now replace "Necromunda" with "40K", "Redemptionists" with "Orks" and "KKK"
with "Nazis" ;o)
Blue Raja
> > Around Christmas, I converted a few "Ork-Qaida" boyz (Orks w/ beards and
> > turbans). Would it be inappropriate to use these at a tourney?
>
> *I* wouldn't have a problem with it. In fact, I would probably laugh with
> you. Now, if you had the Orks carrying signs saying something like "Take
> that, WTC bitches!" or something similiar, I'd probably be pissed off at
> you. That would be disrespecting the dead and generally in horrible taste.
Agreed.
But (and this relates to the original question), who would think that my
minis are supporting terrorism (or in the original point that John's minis
are supporting Nazism)?
Samuel Campbell, #109, Marquis De Spooge
"Blue Raja" <the_bl...@dingoblue.net.au.spamless> wrote in message
> "Pochi the Dog" <kevfr...@crapyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a9qn7j$ivp$1...@mail.wbs.ne.jp...
> > > > I get more inspired looking at the backside of a sheep than a
backside
> > of
> > > a
> > > > camel.
> > >
> > > Are you from Tassie? I'd prefer neither.
> > >
> > Don't knock till you try it. Best to practice with inflatable sheep
first
> > before going into the real world of the farm.
>
> Good point, wouldn't want to hurt myself.
>
> <snip>
> > What do you call a Kiwi with twenty blonde lovers?
> > A Shepherd
> >
> > What's the name of the new Kiwi aftershave?
> > Mint Sauce
>
> Someone else to pick on Singers with... excellent...
>
Why don't the New Zealand government class gumboots as a tax deduction.
Because they are sex aids, not workwear
--
Samuel Campbell, #109, Marquis De Spooge
Housedad and Gamer
RGMW outtakes collector
"Ahh but is he the Marquis De Spooge, and if not he should be!"-estarriol
read the FAQ http://rgmw.org
remove .spammersFOAD to reply personally
Blue Raja
news:3cc13f9c$0$9994$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Why don't the New Zealand government class gumboots as a tax deduction.
> Because they are sex aids, not workwear
<wipes a tear>
I love you guys.
Butch Arthur
"Alan and Carmel Brain" <aeb...@webone.com.au> wrote:
> "john bailey" <jbai...@swbell.net> wrote
>
> > "Alan and Carmel Brain" <aeb...@webone.com.au>
> >
> > > "BobK" <bad...@optonline.net>
> > >> It's a totally different argument when talking Orks. They don't
> > >> belong there
> > >
> > > Actually, the Swastika is the Ork Glyph for "Stormboy".
> > > (Source: Freebooterz IIRC)
>
> > Must be where I got the idea in the first place....
Actually, in Codex Orks (1994), there's a glyph you could easily change
the swastika into which would be very orky...the Orky Glyph.
It looks like a pinwheel (four squares in a square, each divided into
two triangles by lines from the center of the meta-square to the outer
corners with one triangle being black, and the other being white, and no
black triangle contacting any other except at the center point)
surrounded by black. I know that's a weird description, but I didn't
want to scan a tiny little photo.
This would be great, as it would be easy to change by just "rounding
out" the swastika arms, AND, for those in the know, like people on this
discussion board, it would still represent the "racism" of Orks, as the
orky glyph represents "ork, ork civilization, good, green". Thus, it's
a tacit statement that orks view skin color and race as important, and
oppress "uvvers", without overtly being associated with Nazism. Plus,
the Orky glyph looks like a propeller, and you could always explain it
that way.
In the same codex, the Stormboys Glyph is a boot (how Orwellian), but it
may have been changed from Freebooterz. Bizarrely, in that Codex, there
is no Lightning Bolt Glyph.
--
Remove pesky grot to reply. Damn grots get inna everything.
Brady Severns
>
> AND . . . the swastika is an American Indian symbol/glyph.
True.
> My father told
> me that there was a division of Army Rangers who used it in the US prior to
> it becoming . . unpopular.
FWIW, there has never been a division-size unit of Army Rangers.
Currently, there are three Ranger battalions that belong to the Ranger
Regiment. Each battalion operates fairly independently of the others and
the Regimental HQ oversees their training and administration, IRC.
A unit of the Oklahoma National Guard did use the swastika in black on a
red circle rimmed in black as their unit patch before WWII, but I don't
recall what size the unit was. It may have been a division or perhaps a brigade.
Brady
---
Some Ranger History:
Several battalions (upwards of 6) operated independently during WWII.
They were directly attached to the division HQ they were assigned to and
received missions from the division operations staff.
You could say that 6 battalions could form a (very) light division, but
the Rangers of WWII were not organized under a single command and never
operated more than two battalions together in a few operations.
Rangers in WWII first wore what has been described as the "Sunoco" tab:
a blue, diamond-shaped lozenge (twice wider than tall) stroked in yellow
with the word "RANGER" in yellow block letters in the field. Towards the
end of the war, Ranger Battalions were identified with the familiar
scroll in black and white with the word RANGER and the battalion
identifiers organized as (for example) "1st [RANGER] Bn"
Ironically, the 75th Ranger Regiment of today draws its lineage from the
5307th Composite Unit (Provisional), recognized then and today by the
name of "Merril's Marauders," which operated in the China-India-Burma
Theater during WWII. The crest which rests on the beret flash of
enlisted men assigned to the 75th Ranger Regiment is the same crest used
to identify the Marauders during the war. It features a quartered shield
in blue and green. The upper-left blue quarter has the star of China,
the bottom right the star of Burma. A red lightning bolt divides the
shield diagonally.
The Ranger Regiment often honors the memory and feats of the Ranger
battalions which operated in Europe. Even rescaling Pont du Hoc in
France as events and the occassion warrant, but the lineage proper is
traced back to the Marauders.
If Rangers ever wore the swastika for any reason, and I don't think they
ever did, I'm not familiar with it.
TMI, sure, but that's the history!
J Sakari Salonen
> J Sakari Salonen wrote:
>>
>> The WW2 models where one would probably see very large swastikas are German
>> and Finnish aircraft. Apart from the Luftwaffe symbols, a remember seeing
>> large swastikas in the tails of many German WW2 aircraft, and in Finland it
>> was the symbol of the air force.
> ...except that the Finnish swastika is the other way round and has short
> arms, thus being immediately distinguishable from a Nazi swastika.
True enough, and it was also blue in colour. Alas, it was "immediately
distinguishable" to only so many people, and the beautiful and traditional
symbol had to be abandonded after the war.
Ratman
> Ratman wrote:
> >
> > john bailey <jbai...@swbell.net> wrote in message news:<ubruf9...@news.supernews.com>...
> > >I don't want to catch shit for this paint job at the RTT.
> >
> > If this really is your goal I'd advice you to leave those stormboyz at
> > home.
> > Only use them when playing with people who know you, otherwise
> > explaining gets more and more anoying and some people might not even
> > listen to you doing that.
> > d.e.m.
>
>
> ...How about a Taliban-themed Imperial guard army?
Tallarn desert raiders is the only IG I like, just have to get rid of
those eagles...
Dennis Kostrzewa
> bONDO wrote:
> >
> > AND . . . the swastika is an American Indian symbol/glyph.
>
> True.
>
> red circle rimmed in black as their unit patch before WWII, but I don't
> recall what size the unit was. It may have been a division or perhaps a brigade.
>
National Guard unit was the one that used the swastika symbol,
unfortunately I don't remember the unit number. It was division sized
and changed it shortly after the US got into WWII. If you can find
his book (try the library) it's got the details on his experience
during WWII. There's also a whole series of his Willie and Joe
cartoons in the book. Absolutely wonderful!. I read the book about 30
years ago so details are hazy.