[WH40K] Critique of Space Marine Army
Ty
vehicles, without really considering their use on the table. Now, I'm having
to design a real army with them. My collection has lots of basic Space
Marines and vehicles, few characters. I have a bunch of Terminators, a
couple of dreadnoughts and six bikes. I bought the dreadnoughts and bikes
because they looked cool, not out of any desire to play with them. I'm not a
big fan of characters.
Anyhow, here's an outline of a space marine army I'm toying with:
1500 Pts - Space Marines Roster - Unnamed
1 Captain @ 62 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Close Combat Weapon (x1)
9 Tactical Squad @ 180 Pts
Bolter (x7); Missile Launcher (x1); Plasmagun (x1); Frag Grenades
1 Sergeant @ [16] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades
9 Tactical Squad @ 180 Pts
Bolter (x7); Missile Launcher (x1); Plasmagun (x1); Frag Grenades
1 Sergeant @ [16] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades
9 Tactical Squad @ 180 Pts
Bolter (x7); Missile Launcher (x1); Plasmagun (x1); Frag Grenades
1 Sergeant @ [16] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades
1 Land Raider @ 250 Pts
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin-Linked Lascannon (x2)
1 Power of the Machine Spirit @ [0] Pts
1 Land Raider @ 250 Pts
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin-Linked Lascannon (x2)
1 Power of the Machine Spirit @ [0] Pts
1 Land Raider @ 250 Pts
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin-Linked Lascannon (x2)
1 Power of the Machine Spirit @ [0] Pts
5 Assault Squad @ 142 Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x3); Plasma Pistol & CCW (x2); Frag Grenades
1 Sergeant @ [22] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades
Total Roster Cost: 1494
I've played a couple of games now with Land Raiders and I love their
ruggedness (and they are cool looking miniatures). I avoided bikes, Termies
and dreadnoughts because they seemed overly expensive considering their
capabilities. I didn't take Rhinos in this army because they are hideously
vulnerable. No Razorbacks because they are vulnerable (but they might make
decent tank destroyers). I bought a Whirlwind because it looks cool; I was
underwhelmed by its usefulness in battle (of course, it is cheap...) I guess
1-2 of them could replace the assault squad.
Now obviously, an enemy could design an army to beat this force. But my
question for you folks is "how do you think this force would fare against
"typical" armies you've seen"? And are there some tricks or traps that
you've learned about playing against/fighting with Land Raiders? Would you
recommend Land Raider Crusaders instead of Land Raiders? Any tweaks or
alternatives you'd recommend? Any reason to take 2 small 5 man squads
instead of a single 10 man squad? Which heavy weapons do you recommend (I
chose the missile launcher because it's a very versatile weapon).
An option I toyed with was eliminating 2 of the Landraiders. Give 2 of the
tactical squads Rhinos. Add two 5 man devastator squads in Razorbacks (arm
them with 3 x heavy bolter; 1 x lascannon). This gives about the same
firepower (6 heavy bolters, 2 lascannon and 2 twinlinked lascannon vs 4
twinlinked lascannon and 2 twinlinked heavy bolters), and more bodies, but
it gives up the combat mobility of the Land Raider (the Rhinos and
Razorbacks are horribly vulnerable IMHO, and the devastators can't move and
fire heavy weapons).
Comments?
--Ty
Desert Joe
quickly. 250 points can buy a lot of stuff. Pluss you have most of your
anti-tank weapons tied in in very expensive transports. On the other
hand your opponent may try so hard to kill your LR that the rest of you
army can move. But 37 Guys does not seem like much to hold ground with.
I was always told odd number of guys were best in squads to help with
break tests. But 10 or 5 is more fluffy. I don't take Devs because I
hate paying point for a unit that cant move and fire. But that's just
me. You could use 2 LasCan Dreds instead of a LR too. But I like dreds,
go figure.
Some random thoughts of someone who doesn't play much.
-Joe
Chris
news:HHxCe.5$UH...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> Being a treadhead, I've bought and painted a number of Space Marine
> vehicles, without really considering their use on the table. Now, I'm
> having
> to design a real army with them. My collection has lots of basic Space
> Marines and vehicles, few characters. I have a bunch of Terminators, a
> couple of dreadnoughts and six bikes. I bought the dreadnoughts and bikes
> because they looked cool, not out of any desire to play with them. I'm not
> a
> big fan of characters.
>
> Anyhow, here's an outline of a space marine army I'm toying with:
>
A major problem with a list like that is the tendency for Eldar, Dark Eldar,
Tau and Necrons to rape armoured vehicles. In the face of massed 'lances or
railguns, even the Raider is 'horribly vulnerable'.
Your option with Rhinos and Razorbacks would be a little easier on you in
this case, as your opponent's knee-jerk reaction is to shoot the Land
Raider. Instead of Devestators, consider more Tac squads. Use your mobility
to bring bulk rapid fire weapons to bear. This was my favoured tactic in 3rd
ed., and it got so much better in 4th! Just make sure those Tac squads take
missile launchers - flexibility is a virtue.
I personally don't like Crusaders, it's easy to stay out of range of one
that's been immobilised, whereas a standard pattern Raider can dominate a
larger area.
One last note: at least give your Captain a storm bolter, the whole army is
set up for shooting and it would be in theme.
good hunting!
chris/bass/idoru
'idoru' website: http://www.idoru.com.au
Lukas "Lukkai" Buergi
overestimated. Sure, they're one of the toughest thing that can be fielded
and carry a good punch. But they also suck up quite a lot of points which.
And with three of them in a 1500 points army, you risk rapidly losing your
infantry because there's just not enough of it with not enough firepower to
survive a resolute attack by your opponent. Of course there will always be
players who concentrate on the land raiders (which will usually win you the
match), but after a while even those will start to pick your infantry apart
first.
Of course it also depends on who you are fighting. Imperial Guard for
example do have enough big tank killer weapons to take out the land raiders
and still have enough manpower to hold against your infantry. Eldar and Tau
do have some specials like pulse mines, which are deadly against any tank
as long as it isn't sufficiently protected by other troops. And Necrons...
Well, they usually don't take long to kill tanks.
You should consider one or two predators an option. A Cybot can be very
valuable and greatly adds to your firepower. A dev squad, while not able to
move and shoot their heavy guns, can decide a whole game if placed at a
critical point. A razorback can be used to do this. He gets them in place
fast enough and adds more firepower to the unit. And he can act as evac or
cover should things go wrong (you don't lose that many points should it be
destroyed). Plus razorbacks, land speeders and rhinos can be used to
quickly take a quarter in the last turn. Which can decide upon win or loss.
Lessee.... I'm not too fond of bikes myself, but I do love trikes. Their
quite hard to kill and add considerable firepower with good maneuvrebility
to your army.
Whoo.. nearly 3am. nearly falling asleep in my chair. 'Night!
--
This is Lukkai
Desert Joe
transports. Hmm. ISn't anything you take as a transport (that is not
taking up a slot on the FOC) not able to claim quarters and such?
jockelinde
Dedicated transports can *not* claim objectives.
--
Joakim
jockelinde
<snip>
> I personally don't like Crusaders, it's easy to stay out of range of one
> that's been immobilised, whereas a standard pattern Raider can dominate a
> larger area.
I don't like Crusaders either. One of them made a large dent in my
army last time I had time for a game.
It was pretty good in 3rd ed. Now 4th ed. has given it the ability to
fire all of it's many weapons on the move. On top of that the twin
linked assault cannon it carries has been given the rending rule. When
in range the Crusader is brutal.
--
Joakim
jockelinde
<snip>
> I was always told odd number of guys were best in squads to help with
> break tests.
Not just any odd number. Break tests deals with quarters so
having units of 5, 9, 13... is a slight advantage. But since break
tests are caused by losing a quarter of your current strength (rather
than your starting strength) this is a rather weak effect.
Even numbered squads, on the other hand, is a good idea. Take at the
qualifications for being a scoring unit, and how victory points
are awarded to the opponent on page 85.
--
Joakim
Allen P
>> I didn't think Razorbacks could take quarters anymore as they are
>> transports. Hmm. ISn't anything you take as a transport (that is not
>> taking up a slot on the FOC) not able to claim quarters and such?
>
>Dedicated transports can *not* claim objectives.
Unless they are Land Raiders, which always count as scoring units,
right?
--
Al
Lukas "Lukkai" Buergi
>> I didn't think Razorbacks could take quarters anymore as they are
>> transports. Hmm. ISn't anything you take as a transport (that is not
>> taking up a slot on the FOC) not able to claim quarters and such?
>
> Dedicated transports can *not* claim objectives.
Quarters as well?
I'm not sure myself now. I know they could do it in the past, but it's
possible that this was changed. So far I haven't been in a situation where
this was important, myself.
--
This is Lukkai
jockelinde
Yes, Landraiders are exempt from this rule (p. 35 of the SM codex).
--
Joakim
jockelinde
> jockelinde wrote:
>
>>> I didn't think Razorbacks could take quarters anymore as they are
>>> transports. Hmm. ISn't anything you take as a transport (that is not
>>> taking up a slot on the FOC) not able to claim quarters and such?
>>
>> Dedicated transports can *not* claim objectives.
>
> Quarters as well?
Nope. See page 85 of the 4th ed. rulebook.
> I'm not sure myself now. I know they could do it in the past, but it's
> possible that this was changed. So far I haven't been in a situation where
> this was important, myself.
In 3rd ed. transports could grab objectives, but not anymore.
--
Joakim
Lukas "Lukkai" Buergi
I stand corrected. It would however still work, if you reloaded the unit
before moving. As long as the unit still is above 50% of its original
strength that is. And you're losing a chance to shoot with them that way.
--
This is Lukkai
Desert Joe
quiant. :)
-Joe
jockelinde
YES!!! MERCILESSLY CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES WITH YOUR SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE OF
THE RULES!!!
--
Joakim
Jim M
as rec.games.miniatures.warhammer and said...
If that fails he could just throw the book at them...
--
Jim M
"Look alive. Here comes a buzzard." -- Walt Kelly (Pogo)
"The only game I like to play is Old Maid - provided she's not too old." --
Groucho Marx
jockelinde
> It was a cold day in September when jockelinde entered the world pub known
> as rec.games.miniatures.warhammer and said...
>
>> In article <TxuFe.209120$xm3.84936@attbi_s21>, Desert Joe wrote:
>> > jockelinde wrote:
>> >> In article <g9bDe.188117$nG6.151829@attbi_s22>, Desert Joe wrote:
>> >>
>> >> <snip>
>> >>
>> >>>I was always told odd number of guys were best in squads to help with
>> >>>break tests.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Not just any odd number. Break tests deals with quarters so
>> >> having units of 5, 9, 13... is a slight advantage. But since break
>> >> tests are caused by losing a quarter of your current strength (rather
>> >> than your starting strength) this is a rather weak effect.
>> >>
>> >> Even numbered squads, on the other hand, is a good idea. Take at the
>> >> qualifications for being a scoring unit, and how victory points
>> >> are awarded to the opponent on page 85.
>> >>
>> > So you are implying that I should actually read the whole rulebook? How
>> > quiant. :)
>>
>> YES!!! MERCILESSLY CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES WITH YOUR SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE OF
>> THE RULES!!!
>>
>>
> If that fails he could just throw the book at them...
Excellent suggestion. This move was fairly effective back in 3rd
edition, but now in 4th edition it is even better as the new rules
come in a hard cover book.
--
Joakim