epic 40k/ space marine
neil and tracey
please explain the main differences - apart from the races given out with
each ones 'boxed game' - thanks in advance and sorry if this is a stupid
question - warhammer's a new hobby.
Ian Rogers
"neil and tracey" <njb...@nbrandon.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:apu696$c86$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
The difference between the two is :rules implementations, scope of battle,
and scale of model...I think.
I've never played epic, but it's basically 40k on a smaller scale so that
larger confrontations (epic battles? :O) can take place.
~ Ian
Daniel Crichton
I think Space Marine was the first edition of the rules for infantry and
vehicles in Epic scale. I still have Adeptus Titanicus, which was the first
edition of rules for using Titans (and the first Epic rules!). Epic 40k is
basically a new revision of the old epic rules from those sets and White
Dwarfs (back around issue 110 I have loads of pages missing where'd I'd cut
out the infantry and vehicles rules add-ons for Adeptus Titanicus before
Space Marine came out).
Dan
(20 years of GW games and still going!)
Sam Stevenson
"neil and tracey" <njb...@nbrandon.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:apu696$c86$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
From what I recall, Space Marine was the original version of the "epic
scale" game (well, apart from Adeptus Titanicus). It was quite good fun, but
took hours and the rules were quite complicated in parts. Epic 40k, on the
other hand, was over-simplified, took about half an hour and was basically a
big pile of turd.
Cheers
Sam
Markham J Eggleton
earlier edition of Epic 40K.
The first Epic scale game was Adeptus Titanicus, which was initially just
Titan battles. If I remember correctly, the original boxed set contained
rules for Imperial and Horus Rebellion Titans and not a lot else. Some nice
compacted styrene buildings and (for the time) nice Titan models, but in
terms of scope, not a huge amount. It was a fun game. As time went by, GW
started publishing rules for vehicles and infantry in WD.
This developed into Space Marine, which was intended as a stand-alone game
and/or an add-on to Titanicus. The figures were fairly basic and the rules a
little over complicated (IMO) to be overly playable. The army lists that I
remember assumed that players would be fielding massive armies and weren't
that well designed (again, IMO). This edition, I believe, was the last GW
game to include Squats.
Epic 40K was a revision of the rules and combined both Titanicus and Space
Marine. The army lists were better and the rules allowed for pretty much any
scale of battle from regiment level up to army/chapter level. In addition,
the developing background for the 40K mythos meant that we started to see
proper Chaos Marines, as well as Tyranids. I'm not sure if there was just
one edition of Epic 40K, but it was a simple game, with a lot of scope,
which went on to lend a lot to the development of Battlefleet Gothic.
If you check out
http://www.gamesworkshop.com/40kuniverse/epic40k/default.htm you will find
information about the upcoming new edition, Epic 40K Armageddon, which looks
to be an improvement on the last edition.
Hope that this helps.
MJE
Mikael
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""Markham J Eggleton" <megg...@blueyonder.co.uk>" of the planet
rec.games.miniatures.warhammer:
>As has been correctly pointed out by others, Space Marine is simply an
>earlier edition of Epic 40K.
>
>The first Epic scale game was Adeptus Titanicus, which was initially just
>Titan battles. If I remember correctly, the original boxed set contained
>rules for Imperial and Horus Rebellion Titans and not a lot else. Some nice
>compacted styrene buildings and (for the time) nice Titan models, but in
>terms of scope, not a huge amount. It was a fun game. As time went by, GW
>started publishing rules for vehicles and infantry in WD.
>
>This developed into Space Marine, which was intended as a stand-alone game
>and/or an add-on to Titanicus.
This is certainly not true. I know that Space Marine included its own
rules for Titans, and I'm almost completely sure that Adeptus
Titanicus was released after Space Marine.
Mikael
--
Go without God
Mikael
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rec.games.miniatures.warhammer:
Space Marine was the first game that got me into this hobby, so here
goes.
Firstly, despite several claims otherwise, IIRC Space Marine was the
very first Epic-scale game. It was a truly excellent game, although
some people found it too detailed for their tastes. It was
unfortunately replaced by Epic 40K, which "streamlined" the game
mechanics much in the same way as a 2,000 pound laser-guided bomb
"streamlines" a bridge. In short, Epic 40K is very scantily detailed,
generalist rubbish. Avoid at all costs.
Daniel Crichton
news:3dc2e27c...@news.inet.fi...
> This is certainly not true. I know that Space Marine included its own
> rules for Titans, and I'm almost completely sure that Adeptus
> Titanicus was released after Space Marine.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't - back when Adeptus Titanicus came out I was
buying up loads of GW stuff as I was a teen with a job and Space Marine was
something I didn't buy, so it wasn't out. I can check back through my White
Dwarfs for release dates if you want - I have every issue from 98 up to
around 175, covering the years all the original epic stuff was developed and
released.
Dan
neil and tracey
"Mikael" <mik...@ci5.gov> wrote in message
news:3dc2e254...@news.inet.fi...
Tim Fitzmaurice
> >This developed into Space Marine, which was intended as a stand-alone game
> >and/or an add-on to Titanicus.
>
> This is certainly not true. I know that Space Marine included its own
> rules for Titans, and I'm almost completely sure that Adeptus
> Titanicus was released after Space Marine.
A) The Space Marine you are talking about is the second edition which the
previosu poster missed out of his chronology.
B) Adeptus Titanicus did come out before the first Space Marine.
Tim
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568
Paul T.
"neil and tracey" <njb...@nbrandon.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:apu696$c86$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Hi,
If I may be so rude, there is not a single post above that is 100% correct.
To sort 1 dispute, the timeline for epic goes:
Adeptus Titanicus: Titans only in Heresy Era
White Dwarf Articles then added rules for infantry and vehicles which were
compiled and updated into:
Space Marine: Inf + vehicles, Space marine Vs Space Marine in the heresy era
Further WD articles then introduced actual Chaos units such as minatours
etc.
Space Marine VII: infantry, vehicles & titans in one box, added other races
such as Orks, Eldar and "Chaos" as opposed to Heresy forces which were all
expanded on in rules boxes (Armies of the Imperium, Ork&Squat Warlords and
Renegades)
Hive War:add on To Space Marine II introducing the first 'Nids
Titan Legions: re-work of SMII rules for larger titan formations -
introduction of Imperator classes & Mega Gargants. Worked alongside SMII.
Epic 40K: Complete re-working from a new perspective. Easier for bigger
games, what epic's designed for.
Epic Armageddon: Yet to be released, due in Winter 2003. Shaping up to be
the Best epic game yet, its a good balance between the fast play of E40K and
the deail in SMII
Trust me, that IS the order of things in epic - I know this scale rather too
well for my own good!
As for the original question, Space Marine (1 or 2) is little similar to
Epic40K in any more than they use the same models. SM 1 was FAR too detailed
and to bitty to realy work well. SMII still had a lot of detail but none the
less did work rather well. A lot of people see this as the best edition of
epic. I myself still play it when I can but I'm not a fanatic for the system
as some are.
Epic40K simplified and abstracted the rules so they were faster moving and
the mechanics were more capable of holding very large games, something which
epic is very prone too. However, the abstract nature of the rules and the
loss in detail from the army lists meant it unfortunately lost a lot of
players it didn't deserve to. It is a good system, but it wasa big jump from
what players were used to in SMII.
Hope this helps - any further questions and you're more likely to get me on
my own forums (site link in sig)
Cheers,
--
Paul "TuffSkull" T.
http://epic40k.com - if its epic, Its there.....
Tim Fitzmaurice
Theyt are similar in the fact they operate at the same scale, 6,, infantry
figures. They both examine a higher scale of battle than 40K (which is
skirmish to platoon level really depending on edition). The 6mm scale
games cover company to battalion level - or full chapter battles if you
feel up to it.
The first game in the line WAS Adeptus Titanics as most people have
stated. It was designed to play with BIG robots, and was highly detailed
head to head combat. White Dwarf introduced a bunch of rules for infantry
and tanks which later became the first Space Marine boxed set (it was
10-15 years ago but I think that happened within a year). The Space Marine
boxed set made the link between Titans and the rest of the familiar figurs
and models from 40k. Detail level was very high and unfortunately the hop
from standard military to the Titans was not handled very well IMO. One or
two titans in a big army battle worked OK, pure infantry/armour battles
were great, and pure Titan battles were good...typical detail was a stand
of infantry could fire twice, once with bolters and once with heavy
weapons, several hardpoints on any tank etc. Codex Titanicus was a later
supplement that introduced all sorts of other races and new toys. Again
the problems here were the link from Titans to Infantry and armour.
Basically rthe detailed option worked but was VERY detailed, the simple
method flowed better but had some weird effects (especially with infantry
assaults on the expensive, in points terms, Titans). Its set at the Horus
Heresy timepoint.
Then the 'epic' line went a bit quiet and then 2nd Edition Space MArine
appeared. THis was a cleaned up version but still operated on the detail
concept. Its also the edition I am least familiar with. It had a number of
supplements IIRC. All reports I have heard of it indicate they got the
link across the original two scales better and that it is the basis on
which the NetEpic project is founded.
Epic 40K covers the same area but takes a different approach, and thats a
boiling down of the high detail to relative numbers and increased
playabilty which it has succeded at very well in general, but at the cost
of losing a lot of detail to the fire and brimstone of the lovers of
technicalities. For instance instead of a Titans slecting from gatling
guns, volcano cannon, plasma cannon etc you simply select to have a
generic heavy weapon battery of FIrepower X, which essentialy is the same
number concept. Its an excellent game, plays well, does its job as far as
being a wargame goes.
Epic Armageddon is coming and seems to be going for a halfway house...not
sure if it will work or not, but Ill probably get it
The best way I can describe the difference is that the latest edition has
playabiltiy and fancy models in buckets, its intuitive and enjoyable and
you can dash to battle but it has lost so much of the older editions' feel
that I can no longer smell the oil and cordite....
And as such what you want out of the game will affect the version you are
interested in. I enjoy both styles dependant on mood and opponent.
Alan and Carmel Brain
"Mikael" <mik...@ci5.gov> wrote
> >This developed into Space Marine, which was intended as a stand-alone
game
> >and/or an add-on to Titanicus.
>
> This is certainly not true. I know that Space Marine included its own
> rules for Titans, and I'm almost completely sure that Adeptus
> Titanicus was released after Space Marine.
OK, here's the real story from someone who's played every edition:
First came Adeptus Titanicus - Titan vs Titan, as has been described
accurately in previous posts. An expansion was Codex Titanicus
Then came Space Marine (1st edition), based on "add-ons" to A.T.
that appeared in White Dwarf. About as complex as WH40k v 4.
Originally just Traitor vs Loyalist Space Marines.
Then came Space Marine (2nd edition), which simplified the game
(so for example, a Land Raider fired twice at 5+ to hit, with
a -2 on armour save, with an all-round firing arc, rather than
separate shots for each Lascannon and bolter with their own
firing arcs). Over the years, White Dwarf articles and rules
supplements added new,unique rules for everything from Ork
Shokk Attack Guns to Tyrannid Trygons to Weirdboyz to...
so the simple base had lots of add-ons.
It was at this time that the game became known as "Epic".
Then came Codex Titanicus ( what? - Same Name, different thing)
This has MegaGargants and Titans in, and a minor rules tweak
to SM2 regarding skimmers and pinning. (I think it's this that
confused you)
Then came "Epic 40,000" or Epic40k. A complete re-write of the
rules to try to introduce some sanity - why should Trygons,
Pulsa Rockets, and Warp Serpents have 3 different sets of
rules mechanics for essentially the same effect? But lo and
behold, many people didn't like it. ( I did like it - a lot)
Then , next year, will come "Epic Armageddon". Yet another
re-write, this time to make it consistent with the current
version of WH40k - mainly deletions of things like Squats,
Ork Shokk Attack Guns etc - but adding Tau etc. Mechanics will
be more like SM1 crossed with Epic40k, because that's what it
appears people want. So a Leman Russ might have 3 shots,
one with the battlecannon, one with the sponsons, one with
the lascannon, all with different effects. But the key will
be to keep reserves, attack in waves, rest your units etc.
Alan and Carmel Brain
"Alan and Carmel Brain" <aeb...@webone.com.au> wrote
> Then came Codex Titanicus ( what? - Same Name, different thing)
> This has MegaGargants and Titans in, and a minor rules tweak
> to SM2 regarding skimmers and pinning. (I think it's this that
> confused you)
For "Codex Titanicus" read "Titan Legions".
Sorry about that. Memory is the secodn thing to go with old
age, and I've forgotten what the first thing is :-)
Jimi
> very first Epic-scale game.
Unfortunately, you are wrong on this score, Mikael. Adeptus Titanicus was
first in the line.
> In short, Epic 40K is very scantily detailed, generalist rubbish. Avoid at
all costs.
Fortunately, you are correct on this score - we went back to Space Marine
after playing crappy E40K.
Jimi
Rob Singers
> OK, here's the real story from someone who's played every edition:
I've got a bunch of bases, a couple of Eldar dreadnaught things, and what looks
like it might be one Ork. Are they still being sold or do people need pick up
bits 2nd hand? I was thinking of tossing them, but if people are hunting for
bits I'll trade them or sell them.
Alan and Carmel Brain
"Rob Singers" <rsin...@finger.hotmail.com> wrote
a) They're still being sold, but only through mail-order/
b) The old square bases aren't available.
c) Sell em on bartertown - as you're using a hotmail account, I have no
idea where you are geographically. I'm in Australia BTW.
d) There's an active mailing list or three on yahoo groups. The
signal-to-noise
ratio in r.g.m.w is so low that few people bother with it.
Rob Singers
> idea where you are geographically. I'm in Australia BTW.
NZ.
neil and tracey
- do you have any further details of where/ by whom ????
"Alan and Carmel Brain" <aeb...@webone.com.au> wrote in message
news:3dc4...@iridium.webone.com.au...
>
> "Rob Singers" <rsin...@finger.hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > "Alan and Carmel Brain" wrote
> > > OK, here's the real story from someone who's played every edition:
> >
> > I've got a bunch of bases, a couple of Eldar dreadnaught things, and
what
> looks
> > like it might be one Ork. Are they still being sold or do people need
> pick up
> > bits 2nd hand? I was thinking of tossing them, but if people are
hunting
> for
> > bits I'll trade them or sell them.
>
Rob Singers
> > a) They're still being sold, but only through mail-order/
>
> - do you have any further details of where/ by whom ????
Please don't top post in RGMW it just leads to nasty flaming. You might want to
read the NG's FAQ at http://www.rgmw.org. Rather than cutting and pasting from
the bottom to the top like you did - just cut out all that other garbage -
there's no need to leave it in there.
The answer to your Question is the http://www.games-workshop.com. Check out the
online store.
Tim Fitzmaurice
> It was at this time that the game became known as "Epic".
Umm Id argue that point....it was routinely being called Epic round
here during the 1st edition of Space MArine at least. I never touched 2nd
Ed Space Marine and all my 1st ed games were referred to as Epic in the GW
shop and out. Its also IIRC on my figure boxes from that time.
Mikael
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rec.games.miniatures.warhammer:
>
>Then came Codex Titanicus ( what? - Same Name, different thing)
>This has MegaGargants and Titans in, and a minor rules tweak
>to SM2 regarding skimmers and pinning. (I think it's this that
>confused you)
I stand corrected; I confused Titan Legions and Adeptus Titanicus.
Mikael
received a subspace message from this:
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[] DJ [] moron [] NARP [] other,
>> Firstly, despite several claims otherwise, IIRC Space Marine was the
>> very first Epic-scale game.
>
>Unfortunately, you are wrong on this score, Mikael. Adeptus Titanicus was
>first in the line.
Crikey!
>> In short, Epic 40K is very scantily detailed, generalist rubbish. Avoid at
>all costs.
>
>Fortunately, you are correct on this score - we went back to Space Marine
>after playing crappy E40K.
I was trying to find my old rulebooks somewhere, but couldn't. It's
sad, since I really, really liked that game.
Tim Fitzmaurice
>
> I was trying to find my old rulebooks somewhere, but couldn't. It's
> sad, since I really, really liked that game.
Go find the NetEpic site...if you preferred the old 2nd Ed Space Marine
game then you will likely really enjoy NetEpic...the brief look at it I
had makes it look really good, and its of the 2nd Ed Epic style...
I believe all rules are in PDF format....
Jimi
Watchout for the crocs!!
> I was trying to find my old rulebooks somewhere, but couldn't. It's
> sad, since I really, really liked that game.
I sold quite a bit of my SM stuff off when the guys started taking an
interest in good 'ol SM and made a killing via the sales - my SM armies
(Orks, Marines, SW, BA, Eldar, etc) totalled over 200,000pts (we likes BIG
games we does) :-)
> Go without God
I prefer local transport - safer and less chance of meeting a bible-thumper.
Jimi