Can Dwarfs beat Bretonnians?
J da Gamer
Does anyone have any suggestions on how a dwarf army might be able to beat
a Bretonnian army?
Jay Browning
Tox
Are you playing tournament-style? Campaign? Standard WHFB5?
Jon Barmore
One easy suggestion s the use of cannons, organ guns, etc. You have 25%
war machines, use them. This is not "cheesy" if you use them. Think about
it, many of these weapons allows no armour save or modify it alot. They
also draw a line of damage, not just one point. If you see a lance
formastion, fire a cannon shot down it and some organ guns at its side. It
will be gone in a few seconds. Also, it is not as powerful, but the flame
cannon template is the same shape as a lance formation . . .
Jon Barmore
Skaven, Wood Elves, Bretonnia, Chaos Dwarves
Tyranids, Chaos 40k
J da Gamer <jdag...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970224121...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
jbe...@vt.edu
In article <Pine.ULT.3.95.97022...@isr.harvard.edu>,
t...@wjh.harvard.edu says...
>
>
>
>On 24 Feb 1997, J da Gamer wrote:
>
beat
>> a Bretonnian army?
>> Jay Browning
>>
Organ Guns (lots to counteract the Lady's Blessing) and Dwarf generals
stacked to the hilt with runes. Also take the rune banner that prevents
units from breaking. Use a BIG unit to engages (aka be charged) by the
knights. Those knights may kill a lot of dwarves at first but then get
stuck in with a unit of miners or other guys with two handed axes, or
halberds. The commoners are easy to crush (can use your artillery on
them) when you can no longer attempt to fire at the knights.
If its a time based game, the fiery ring of thothi can be used to hold the
knights back for a turn.
J da Gamer
I have not tried the flame cannon but in both battles I used two organ
guns (each having a combo including the rune of fortune) and two
gyrocopters (no armor save for either war machine). You only get one or
two chances to shoot before the blasted knights are in melee with your
troops and when they take the Blessing it does not take many die rolls
preventing you from shooting to render them useless.
Jay Browning
J da Gamer
Sorry for not being specific. I was refering to tournamnet scenarios as
per the Battle Book. I tried a large unit of spearmen with a general,
runepriest, battle standard bearer, and champion. The general had the
Crown of Command which allowed me to fight them for three game turns of
combat, but in the end all my characters were slain and unit routed. This
has happened twice, the first time I did not have the crown so it only
lasted a single player turn. The problem is my opponents have either a
general or hero leading the lance, backed with two more heros, backed with
two more champions.
I did a little number crunching, alright number gnawing, and came up with
this for comparative purposes.
Clansmen: WS4 3, S3, T4, Hand Weapons, 5+ Save, 10 files by 4 ranks
Opponent: WS3, S3, T3, Lance (+2S), 2+ Save, 15 Knights Errant, Lance
This arrangement allows 9 knights to face 6 clansmen assuming the leaders
of the two units are facing one another.
I rounded up at .5 or higher, down if less than point five. The numbers
are for comparative purposes only. Assuming the Bretonnians charge the
results average out as follows
Bretonnians Knights Horses
Hits inflicted 5 5
Wounds inflicted 3 2
Dwarfs
Hits inflicted 1
Wounds Inflicted 0
Dwarfs lose by 5
Of course my opponents had better than Knights Errant, I had spearmen
which would increase the number of dwarf attacks, but not enough to
inflict the needed wounds.
I thought about not using war machines at all at just using two or three
large units with double handed weapons and characters but in a tournament
setting I wonder how well this would do against a shooty army. When it
comes to tournaments for some armies its a rock paper scissors situation
in many cases. You want pick an army that stands the best chance of
winning against what you think the other guys will be playing.
Jay Browning
Gerry Kevin Wilson
In article <19970224213...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
J da Gamer <jdag...@aol.com> wrote:
>gyrocopters (no armor save for either war machine). You only get one or
>two chances to shoot before the blasted knights are in melee with your
>troops and when they take the Blessing it does not take many die rolls
>preventing you from shooting to render them useless.
If I were fighting the Brets instead of playing them, I would get them
stuck in HtH wit some inexpensive troops and open fire on the lot of 'em.
The knights cost a minimum of 32 pts apiece. I can't think of many rank
n' files that are nearly that expensive. I'm sure you've got some Dwarven
Grudgebearers or something that are relatively inexpensive. Stall the
knights, then keep firing the cannons. Those dwarves are short, after
all, you might get lucky enough to shoot right over their heads. :)
Of course, a wise Bret general will keep his knights away from your chump
units, often with a screen of mounted squires or somesuch, and do his
damnedest to hit your best troops with them. But then, that's tactics for
ya. We Brets don't need too many, but we gotta be good at the ones we
need, and dodging crappy units with our knights is one we definitely need.
Anyways, good luck...some of the time.
--
= SPAG Magazine = Issues 1-9 at ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/magazines/SPAG =
= All = Ratings = Issue 10 coming soon. It's the =
= About = Reviews = 1996 I-F Competition Issue. =
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Vampire
J da Gamer wrote:
Are you using the campaign rules for 1500 point armies? Or just the
tournament restrictions?
> Sorry for not being specific. I was refering to tournamnet scenarios as
> per the Battle Book. I tried a large unit of spearmen with a general,
> runepriest, battle standard bearer, and champion. The general had the
> Crown of Command which allowed me to fight them for three game turns of
> combat, but in the end all my characters were slain and unit routed. This
> has happened twice, the first time I did not have the crown so it only
> lasted a single player turn. The problem is my opponents have either a
> general or hero leading the lance, backed with two more heros, backed with
> two more champions.
TWO champions? You can't have two champions in ONE unit. Unless you mean
one is the Battle standard bearer. Anyhow, there's lots of things you
can try. If you're not playing to 50 point max items, you could take the
Pipes of Doom. D6 S4 hits and they cant charge. Or the Claw of Nagash on
his General or Hero. Take the Banner of Defiance to try and help u win
combat (make sure you have the full 4 ranks or make it 5 to allow for
casualties) Take the sword of Swift Slaying and Rune of Swiftness to
allow your general and one other character to always strike first and
hopefully take some enemy out before they get a chance to hit. Give your
characters crossbows or guns and fire as they charge in. If you're lucky
you might get one. Include the Battle standard in this unit as well to
give you another +1 and make it the Banner of might or Battle banner. Or
better still, use the Battle standard to carry the Banner of Defiance
and ordinary standard to carry one of the others to keep character
points down. Give a character the potion of Strength as well to get past
the armour save. Even if you're playing to 50 point maximums, you should
get a +8 combat resolution to start with, Characters that can strike
first and a couple of missile shots as the enemy charge (unless they
have that item that turns the shots back on you)
vampire
J da Gamer
>TWO champions? You can't have two champions in ONE unit. Unless you mean
>one is the Battle standard bearer.
Yes, one was the BSB.
>If you're not playing to 50 point max items, you could take the
>Pipes of Doom. D6 S4 hits and they cant charge.
The 50 point limit applies.
>Take the Banner of Defiance to try and help u win combat (make sure you
have >the full 4 ranks or make it 5 to allow for casualties)
Did that.
>Take the sword of Swift Slaying and Rune of Swiftness to allow your
general and >one other character to always strike first and hopefully take
some enemy out >before they get a chance to hit.
Didn't do that. Used RUne of cleaving to boost strength instead.
>Give your characters crossbows or guns and fire as they charge in. If
you're lucky
>you might get one.
Didn't do that.
>Include the Battle standard in this unit as well to give you another +1
and make it >the Banner of might or Battle banner.
Did that. He died in the initial charge.
>Even if you're playing to 50 point maximums, you should get a +8 combat
>resolution to start with.
Mine was about +8 initially, his was +12.
Thanks for the ideas.
Jay Browning
XtianStone
Try putting a fodder unit, or even a war machine out front. Let the
Brettonians destroy it, and you will be in range to charge them next
round. Use weapons that give you a high initiative, and try and hit the
Brettonian unit with more than 1 unit of your own.
Frank Alejano
How about this for an anti-Brettonian unit:
Dwarven General wielding a hammer with Master rune of Swiftness
and a rune of fury (+1A), Cloak with Rune of Spite
(rebound HtH wounds), potion of strength, wearing HA,
shield. 269 points
Dwarven Hero w/ Fiery Ring of Thori, Black Amulet, wielding
2 handed weapon, HA. 184 points
34 Dwarf Spearmen, including Standard Bearer w/Banner of Defiance.
Arranged in 6x6 formation. This prevents loss of rank for
quite a while. 435 points
Flank the unit with your organ guns. As the knights get ready
to charge, activate the ring. That gives you an extra turn of
fire. In combat, issue a challenge with your hero. Anyone
accepting it will probably die to the amulet and his 2-h hammer
The general should be more than capable of taking out the opposing
general in one turn (I would be shocked if he didn't). As a
possible alternative, replace the rune of fury with the curse
rune and see show the general enjoys attacking a Dwarf General
when he only has S2.
This should put you on decent ground with the guy. See if you
can take out the battle standard bearer- that'll make your life
MUCH easier.
Frank
--
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Scowling Jim Cowling
In article <331321...@memh.ti.com>, Frank Alejano <fale...@memh.ti.com> wrote:
>How about this for an anti-Brettonian unit:
>
>Dwarven General wielding a hammer with Master rune of Swiftness
> and a rune of fury (+1A), Cloak with Rune of Spite
> (rebound HtH wounds), potion of strength, wearing HA,
> shield. 269 points
>
>Dwarven Hero w/ Fiery Ring of Thori, Black Amulet, wielding
> 2 handed weapon, HA. 184 points
>
>34 Dwarf Spearmen, including Standard Bearer w/Banner of Defiance.
>Arranged in 6x6 formation. This prevents loss of rank for
>quite a while. 435 points
Almost 1000 points for a single unit of 36 models? As a Bretonnian, I'll be
quite happy to take you on, as my mounted knights utterly ignore this unit and
I let 1000 points of Bretonnian Bowmen (that's about 120 archers) rain down
arrows upon you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
...."Scowling" Jim Cowling...Writer/Atheist/Geek..."A man may build...
....himself a throne of bayonets but he cannot sit on it" -- Inge.....
..............http://www.islandnet.com/~scowling......................
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank Alejano
Scowling Jim Cowling wrote:
>
> In article <331321...@memh.ti.com>, Frank Alejano <fale...@memh.ti.com> wrote:
> >How about this for an anti-Brettonian unit:
> >
> >Dwarven General wielding a hammer with Master rune of Swiftness
> > and a rune of fury (+1A), Cloak with Rune of Spite
> > (rebound HtH wounds), potion of strength, wearing HA,
> > shield. 269 points
> >
> >Dwarven Hero w/ Fiery Ring of Thori, Black Amulet, wielding
> > 2 handed weapon, HA. 184 points
> >
> >34 Dwarf Spearmen, including Standard Bearer w/Banner of Defiance.
> >Arranged in 6x6 formation. This prevents loss of rank for
> >quite a while. 435 points
>
> Almost 1000 points for a single unit of 36 models? As a Bretonnian, I'll be
> quite happy to take you on, as my mounted knights utterly ignore this unit and
> I let 1000 points of Bretonnian Bowmen (that's about 120 archers) rain down
> arrows upon you.
That may be, but, truthfully, I have yet to see a brettonian player
field
that many archers. Besides, against many armies, this tactic would be
somewhat problematic- some fast cavalry or flying creatures would
utterly
disperse your archers. With dwarves, a couple of units of crossbowmen,
believe it or not, would outperform your archers. Do the calculations
yourself
70 Dwarves firing s4 Xbows at long range kill 16 archers a turn.
100 archers firing s3 longbows at long range kill 11 dwarves a turn.
cost of 50 xbowmen: 770 points
cost of 100 archers: 800 points
Not a good bargain.
Your knights want to charge the x bowmen that are flanking the main
unit?
No problem. Knights, meet the Dwarves incredible invisible exploding
organ
gun, which happens to be parked right in front of the xbows. (this
trick
absolutely INFURIATES brettonians) The knights would get wiped out by
the
blast.
What point total would this be, BTW? in a 2000 point game, fielding
anywhere
near this many archers leaves a pitiful amount for knights or
characters.
Where's you magic defense? What happens when the unopposed 4th level
mage
Crushes your archers? What happens when your enemy is holding the ruby
chalice? That's 1000 points virtually down the drain.
Don't get me wrong- it's a neat tactic, and it might very well work
somewhat
regularly (I think it won't, but I'm not the authrority in tactics), but
it's
THE poster child of the all-eggs-in-one-basket technique.
For references sake, I would set up as follows
OG OG OG
XXXXXXXXXX DDDDDD XXXXXXXXXX
DDDDDD
DDDDDD
DDDDDD
DDDDDD
DDDDDD
Keep the flank ones visible, in center invisible. He'll probably
go for the center, at which point it decloaks and takes a whole mess
of knights with it. If he goes for the flanks, He'll waste a whole
lot of time getting past the war machine- it's difficult terrain, at
the least- during which points the main regiment will be able to
maneuver
to a proper place.
Brettonians would not enjoy attacking this particular setup.
Any points you make in reply, anyway, don't apply to the army that the
original poster was fighting. He had to fight a unit with
A general ~180 points, if not more
2 Heroes ~100 points each
2 Champions ~ 60 points each
10 KotR ~390 points He implied that this unit was more pumped, thus
this is a minimal cost.
====
890 points minimum which is actually MORE EXPENSIVE than the
unit I suggested. BTW, I'm not sure that unit would work
perfectly, but then again I'm not a master tactician.
Moreover, he made it perfectly clear that this particular brettonian
general
didn't mind charging a huge block of hth capable dwarves, a habit that
COULD get him into trouble someday :)
cdrd...@slic.com
Hmmm... this isn't really all that hard of a question... In our little
group I play dwarves and so far, I've not been beaten by the Brets...
that's not to say I don't expect he'll never beat me, it's just that he
hasn't figured it out YET!
Well, let's start with the new models...
The new cannon is great... give it a rune so it can re-roll misfires and
realize that you will only get off a shot 50% of the time against
Knights, so take TWO cannons... then your usually alright...
FLAME CANNON!!!! it took me about 5 seconds to realize that the Lancer
wedge is the same shape as the flame cannon template :) !!!!
Bolt throwers... these are good to kill Morgiana with... she's not a
Knight, so kill her dead... (Don't worry about Morgiana anyway, most of
her "Built in" spells stink, the only thing she has going for her is the
frog spell, then guess what? she's usually in charge range!!)
Troops...
I've found 2 things to be most effective... the first is a large unit of
spearmen... the lance charge has the potential to kill alot of troops, so
you need alot of attacks... if you don't get to attack back, stick with
your high leadership and attack next turn... but hopefully the rank bonus
will help you...
The second is... Hammerers!!! Better WS so you hit on 3+, Str 6 so you
wound on a 2+ and a -3 save means knights only save on a 5+... believe
me, this kills alot of knights... but here's the key... Hammerers go last
in combat... so you might not get to go at all... never fear, Runes are
here... My General leads the Hammerer unit... armed with the Master rune
of Swiftness! My general always goes first! It's usually just the
Swiftness rune, but if I've got points to spare, extra str and extra
attack runes are always helpfull... In a hugh battle, I used a Unit
Champion armed the Sword of swiftness or whatever it is, as well as the
General with his runes...
Last little key note... Slayers... lot's of em, usually in 2 units
protecting the flanks, kill all you want, they never run... And if you
know he's taking flyers, then remember to "battery" up all the artillery
you can and place a "Buffed" hero to guard the battery...
That's it...beating Brets isn't all that hard, but then again, beating
Lizardmen, Dark Elves, High Elves, Empire, Orks & Goblins, Undead, or
Chaos isn't all that hard either... :)
Dwarves Rock !!!
(Get it... Dwarves - Rock, Rock like the Mountains... OK, sorry)
Mike
gargamel
cdrd...@slic.com wrote:
>
> That's it...beating Brets isn't all that hard, but then again, beating
> Lizardmen, Dark Elves, High Elves, Empire, Orks & Goblins, Undead, or
> Chaos isn't all that hard either... :)
>
> Dwarves Rock !!!
>
I have to admit that I think that dwarves are a tough army. I play them
also. Primarily however I field Zagnut Nadrippa's boyz. That's my Goblin
army and they aren't afraid of dwarves.
The imminent danger of the dwarven war machines is easily taken care of
with several well placed doom divers. I usually do fairly well at
guessing range and if I don't misfire manage to take out one artillery
piece a turn.
Hammerers are tough, as are slayers and dwarf spearmen. The problem here
is that they are so damn slow that they will never make it into combat.
When they do get close enough they will be "hammered" by Night Goblin
Fanatics to thin them out a little bit. Then when a few goblin chariots
slice through the ranks accompanied by an erratic snotling pump wagon or
two, they are softened up enough for the rest of the boyz to clean up.
Night goblins(hatred for dwarves) with the bad moon banner and a few
ogres are great for that.
My point is that although your army is really tough, it has its serious
disadvantages. What do you do when you are not confronted in close
combat? Last time I fought dwarves my opponent war really annoyed when
my Boyz just waited for the stunties to make it accross the field only
to trounce them with fanatics. Meanwhile his precious flame cannon
exploded robbing my doom diver of the opportunity to destroy it.
I think dwarves versus wood elves would also be a nightmare battle for
the stunties.
I have chosen to build a dwarf army more for the look of the models and
the artillery pieces than their destructiveness.
Gargamel
"The Tiger that does not prowl, is a potential rug."
Scowling Jim Cowling
Um, Frank? Please do *not* mail me posts to the newsgroup. I don't need to
see it twice.
In article <33136D...@memh.ti.com>, Frank Alejano <fale...@memh.ti.com>
wrote:
>70 Dwarves firing s4 Xbows at long range kill 16 archers a turn.
>
>100 archers firing s3 longbows at long range kill 11 dwarves a turn.
120 archers at long range kill 13 spearmen a turn.
>cost of 50 xbowmen: 770 points
>
>cost of 100 archers: 800 points
>
>Not a good bargain.
So...you're going to have 770 points in crossbowmen *and* the big unit of
spearmen? Where do you think that my knights (which are ignoring your
spearmen) are heading? Feel free to fire crossbows at my knights, though.
>Your knights want to charge the x bowmen that are flanking the main
>unit?
>No problem. Knights, meet the Dwarves incredible invisible exploding
>organ
>gun, which happens to be parked right in front of the xbows. (this
>trick
>absolutely INFURIATES brettonians) The knights would get wiped out by
>the
>blast.
Seeing as how I've prayed my first turn, you have a 50% chance of using that
war machine against me. Or, if I have the Fay Enchantress, I use the blue
potion, and you have *no* chance of using it.
>What point total would this be, BTW? in a 2000 point game, fielding
>anywhere
>near this many archers leaves a pitiful amount for knights or
>characters.
>Where's you magic defense? What happens when the unopposed 4th level
>mage
>Crushes your archers? What happens when your enemy is holding the ruby
>chalice? That's 1000 points virtually down the drain.
You have a 1000 point spearmen unit and 770 points of xbowmen, and an organ
gun. Where do you get the points for an L4 mage or a Ruby Chalice?
>Don't get me wrong- it's a neat tactic, and it might very well work
>somewhat
>regularly (I think it won't, but I'm not the authrority in tactics), but
>it's
>THE poster child of the all-eggs-in-one-basket technique.
120 bowmen is the poster child of this technique and 36 spearmen isn't?
Oh, please. For 2000 points I can take 120 bowmen, the Enchantress, and 18
Knights Errant (which is, believe it or not, what I usually take to the
battlefield). My Enchantress is more than ready to take on any Level Four
mage you have around, eliminate a war machine from the game, and make my
Knights Errant much more powerful while my bowmen effectively destroy a unit a
turn.
You charge my bowmen, all of whom are in arrowhead formation? I stand and
shoot. With every bowman in the unit.
>For references sake, I would set up as follows
>
> OG OG OG
>
>XXXXXXXXXX DDDDDD XXXXXXXXXX
> DDDDDD
> DDDDDD
> DDDDDD
> DDDDDD
> DDDDDD
>
>Keep the flank ones visible, in center invisible. He'll probably
>go for the center, at which point it decloaks and takes a whole mess
>of knights with it. If he goes for the flanks, He'll waste a whole
>lot of time getting past the war machine- it's difficult terrain, at
>the least- during which points the main regiment will be able to
>maneuver
>to a proper place.
>
>Brettonians would not enjoy attacking this particular setup.
I'd love it. Morgiana eliminates one organ gun, and praying reduces the
effectiveness of the others to 50%. Are you going to risk decloaking on the
off chance you won't be able to fire?
My bowmen take three turns to eliminate your 1000 point unit (meanwhile
you eliminate about 50 bowmen). I get 10 victory points, you get 5. Do I
need to do anything else? I sit back and do nothing for Turn Four and win on
points. Or maybe I should just fire at the visible organ guns for one turn?
>Any points you make in reply, anyway, don't apply to the army that the
>original poster was fighting. He had to fight a unit with
Irrelevant. Change the subject line then.
PattonUSN
>I think dwarves versus wood elves would also be a nightmare battle for
>the stunties.
I've had a game where a 2000pt Wood Elf army wiped out a 2000pt Dwarf army
before they reached hand-to-hand range. Against the Bretonains, two elves
died (Scouts) while wiping out the enemies 2000pt, even though they were
praying.
Sure, Wood Elves archers would get killed in hand-to-hand by either of the
above, but that's what Treemen (on order) and Wardancers are for.
My favorate battles, however, have been with Dwarf infantry allied with
the Wood Elves.
-Keith
Imam Sawez
> Dwarves Rock !!!
>
> (Get it... Dwarves - Rock, Rock like the Mountains... OK, sorry)
>
> Mike
>
warfare to make me groan out loud in the middle of my workday when the
company is holding a board meeting anout six feet from my cube? Shouldn't
there be laws against puns so forced they kill?
Tracey C. Van Vorous
drubbing has been the same. They've been put in a position where they
had to take the initiative and charge across the board. Where upon the
enemy archers/warmachines/magicians rip them to shreds. If somone
wanted to write a manual on how best to loose playing dwarves this would
be on the first page. I suspect your opponent would have been better
off if he'd just stayed put and fired back. They certainly couldn't
have done any worse.
Lon