Eldar Wraithlords Unfair In 500 Point Armies?
Emmanuel W. Simms
brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500) to let
everyone have some time to build up their armies.
My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines, Chaos
Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say that
using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think Wraithlords
are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of this
fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
Emmanuel
Emmanuel's Comic Shop
Doug
If you're going to limit them, don't limit just them... Limit all armies to one
heavy choice, or no heavy choices, or something. I still wouldn't recommend
this.
What I would recommend is playing him a few times and obliterate those
wraithlords. Bring a marine army with a missle launcher devastator squad. Bring
a non-wraithlord eldar army with wraith guard, rangers, or d-cannons. Try any
imperial army with an eversor assassin. Or an archon with agonizer, combat
drugs, and a shadow field. Any of these things should rip apart a wraithlord
quickly and show the other players that they can be beaten. Tell the ork player
to try tying him up with a large mob that he'll never be able to kill. And I
suppose the tyranid player could try the same thing, but they'll really just
have to wait for a codex... ;)
(Don't worry, my bugs are waiting too...)
Hope that helps.
-Doug (the other one)
paladin...@my-deja.com
"Emmanuel W. Simms" <esi...@tim.ca> wrote:
> I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the players
are
> brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500) to
let
> everyone have some time to build up their armies.
>
> My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
> players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines,
Chaos
> Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say
that
> using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
>
> Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think
Wraithlords
> are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of
this
> fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
Is using a dreadnought unfair in 500pts? Does no one use heavy weapons?
Seriously, if there is any distance between you and the eldar player,
that wraithlord will get shot up alot. I don't understand how people
see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
-Stephen
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
GrimWulf
I don't understand how people
> see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
>
Maybe because a dread can die in one shot, a carnifex can be wounded by
small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make him more
effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even move,
these are problems with dreads.
your standard Str 4 SM, CSM, or Ork at least have a 'chance' to kill dreads
and carnifex's, against a wraithlord their dead.
paladin...@my-deja.com
Against a dread, how? Unless it is immobilized (meaning it has already
been shot and damaged at least once) they cannot get to the rear armour.
If the dread has been shot and damaged, that means that the same
wraithlord would have been shot and wounded at least once. H2H versus
any of the above is suicidal, unless you have multiple powerfist armed
guys or you are the blood angels.
Tom Beliech
Doug <djco...@gte.net> wrote in message news:397EFBD1...@gte.net...
> > I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the players
are
> > brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500) to
let
> > everyone have some time to build up their armies.
> >
> > My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
> > players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines, Chaos
> > Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say
that
> > using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
[snip]
>. Tell the ork player
> to try tying him up with a large mob that he'll never be able to kill.
And I
> suppose the tyranid player could try the same thing, but they'll really
just
> have to wait for a codex... ;)
But therein lies a problem with 40K3's Assault system. In 40K2, sending a
mob of Grots after a hard target was a valid tactic - one could only kill so
many Grots in a turn before the bonuses piled up enough to actually hit the
character. Even if they couldn't WOUND him, the grots could keep him pinned.
In 40K3, although uber-characters are less powerful, assaults still favor
the character in this case - he only has to kill ONE Grot to have a chance
to make ALL the rest scream and run in panic.
Of course, one can't even pin a Wraithlord.
What we need is a ST14 weapon specifically designed to insta-kill these
abominations ;)
Tom Beliech
gaug...@my-deja.com
"GrimWulf" <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
> I don't understand how people
> > see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
> >
>
> Maybe because a dread can die in one shot, a carnifex can be wounded
by
> small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
>
> There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make him
more
> effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even
move,
> these are problems with dreads.
>
> your standard Str 4 SM, CSM, or Ork at least have a 'chance' to kill
dreads
> and carnifex's, against a wraithlord their dead.
Anything that can pierce AV 12 (dread) has a very good chance to wound a
WraithLord. In addition, something like a Big Shoota or a Heavy Bolter
can wound a WraithLord while it can't do anything against a Dreadnought.
Gauge1000
incrdbil
>What I would recommend is playing him a few times and obliterate those
>wraithlords. Bring a marine army with a missle launcher devastator squad. Bring
>a non-wraithlord eldar army with wraith guard, rangers, or d-cannons. Try any
>imperial army with an eversor assassin. Or an archon with agonizer, combat
>drugs, and a shadow field. Any of these things should rip apart a wraithlord
>quickly and show the other players that they can be beaten.
A wraithlord yes--3 Wraithlords...nope. the Marine Dev missile Squad
might get one, but will surely be the target of massed fire and be
taken out.
someone routinely using 3 wraithlords in a series of 500 point games
is simply taking advanatge of the contruction rules and a slightly
undercosted unit.
Cut back the heavy selection choices available sounds like the best
bet here.
Tom Beliech
GrimWulf <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:pBDf5.47259$FQ.51...@news0.telusplanet.net...
>
> I don't understand how people
> > see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
> >
>
>
> Maybe because a dread can die in one shot, a carnifex can be wounded by
> small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
>
> There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make him more
> effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even move,
> these are problems with dreads.
Precisely. Sure, the WL is easier to HURT than a Dreadnaught, especially
with a lascannon or missile launcher, but you've got to hurt him 3 such
times to have ANY effect whatsoever.
The typical Heavy weapons squad has a good chance of taking out a Dread with
a single round of fire, because one hit CAN kill. Against a Wraithlord,
they'll probably have to fire twice as much, which keeps their attention
away from other targets they could have been taking out.
Anything that can simply laugh at a Battlecannon shot - no, TWO Battlecannon
shots - is too much.
Tom Beliech
incrdbil
>
>Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think Wraithlords
>are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of this
>fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
>
Question--what else does he have in his battle force? is he arming his
Wraithlords with much?
A marine force could take a Leader, two shooty dreads with missile
launcher and twin linked lascannon, and a couple of shooty scout or
tactical squads.
witht three Wraithlords with the typical starcanons, and two barebones
guardian defender squads with no options, and a farseer with no
upgrades, thats 480 points.
If he isnt taking starcannons, but the cheaper shuriken cannon, thats
420 points. Enough to get A weaposn platform and soem more
Guardians..but at that point the force can't even scratch an all troop
marine army in razorbacks.
even with no weapons other thasn a flamers, you can at best add a
weaposn platform to each guardian squad, beef them up a few members,
and give the farseer a power like firtune or guide.
Still, those wraithlords are a bit much--you pretty mucvh have to
design your force to deal with them.
Smith
> I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the players
are
> brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500)
to let
> everyone have some time to build up their armies.
>
> My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
> players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines,
Chaos
> Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say
that
> using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
>
> Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think
Wraithlords
> are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of
this
> fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
>
For 96 points, marines and Chaos marines can buy 5 man tactical
squads with a lascannon and a plasma gun, 500 points, hell, they
could get 2 of these squads and a dreadnought for 115 points that
has a plasma cannon. That's 307 points, with the rest they could
get creative, one just get another 5 man squad or a really brutal
command squad. Sounds like your players need to buy more
heavey weapon figs..
Smith
--
I can See a perfect world without violence and hatred....
.... And I can see us attacking that world because
they would never expect it..
John Handy, Deep Thoughts
incrdbil
>What we need is a ST14 weapon specifically designed to insta-kill these
>abominations ;)
>
>Tom Beliech
>
>
incrdbil
>can wound a WraithLord while it can't do anything against a Dreadnought.
>
well, in theorey, a heavy Bolter could wound a dread. ^ to wound, 3
plus save after a successful hit roll.
I don't think Wraithlords really sweat those.
Of course, if you get a HB behind a dread, then it is much more
dangerous.
incrdbil
entire force, just a scenario where you could bring a single 500 point
detachment from another army
This is an approximation--weaposn loads might have been slightly
different, but this is the gist of what the guy thought a small "Eldar
reinforcement group" would be.
1 Avatar of Khaine @ 80 pts
Wailing Doom
5 Guardian Defender Squad @ 40 pts
Shuriken Catapult
5 Guardian Defender Squad @ 40 pts
Shuriken Catapult
1 Wraithlord @ 100 pts
Flamer (x1)
Shuriken Catapult (x2)
Shuriken Cannon
1 Wraithlord @ 120 pts
Flamer (x1)
Shuriken Catapult (x2)
Bright Lance
1 Wraithlord @ 120 pts
Flamer (x1)
Shuriken Catapult (x1)
Star Cannon
Models in Army: 14
Total Army Cost: 500
r4...@my-deja.com
why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the Eldar
army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that what is
really important?
incrdbil
>>
> If the Wraithlord is "too much" why isn't it dominating games and
>why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the Eldar
>army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that what is
>really important?
>
Well, the original poster was talking about a troublesome
situation--multiple Wraithlords in a 500 point game--thats the
specific problem we are trying to address.
Rob Glunt
> If the Wraithlord is "too much" why isn't it dominating games and
> why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the Eldar
> army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that what is
> really important?
I think the issue isn't the power level of the Wraithlord so much as the
army construction rules. In a 1500 point game, any army should be able
to deal with three Wraithlords without much problem. However, in a 500
point game, most armies simply don't have that kind of firepower, and
what firepower they have can probably be eliminated by the three
Wraithlords before they expire.
It is for precisely this reason that I generally don't play such low
point games. The force organization chart simply breaks down in terms
of army balance.
I'd recommend either raising the point level to 1000 or 1500 points or
altering the force organization charts for the mission so that you can't
fullfill your troop requirements with two forty point guardian squads
and throw the rest into heavy support.
---
Rob Glunt
Jason Larke
>>>>> said:
g> Anything that can pierce AV 12 (dread) has a very good chance
g> to wound a WraithLord. In addition, something like a Big
g> Shoota or a Heavy Bolter can wound a WraithLord while it can't
g> do anything against a Dreadnought.
Sure, but you have to wound the WL three times to kill
it. Piercing a dreadnought once usually makes it back off, if it
doesn't die directly.
As for shoota and heavy bolters- yeah, they can wound on a 6, IF
the WL doesn't make it's 3+ save. One wound in 18 shots. *Real*
good odds, those.
My basic problem boils down to the combo of high toughness (no
auto-kills, few wounds), good armor save (hard to overwhelm with
small arms fire), and three wounds. To kill it in any reasonable
time frame requires 100 or more points of troops to stand still
for a couple turns and blaze away at it. Meanwhile, it's off
killing your troops.
--
Jason Larke- jla...@uu.net- http://www.nnaf.net/~jlarke Send mail for PGP key
I don't speak for UUNET or MCI Worldcom. I speak for Odin. And he's *pissed*.
"The Rock can't say I quit, because the Rock only talks in the third person."
"People change, and smile: but the agony abides."-T.S. Eliot, The Dry Salvages
La Grief
Emmanuel W. Simms <esi...@tim.ca> wrote in message
news:NGCf5.8$Eq1....@sapphire.mtt.net...
| I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the players are
| brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500) to let
| everyone have some time to build up their armies.
|
| My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
| players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines, Chaos
| Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say that
| using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
|
| are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of this
| fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
Are you the one using the wraithlords?
The simple fact is that you can't. 1 Wraithlord is being a bit harsh, especially
against tyrannids and Orks, in a 500 point army. If there are any more then it is
downright wrong.
--
-Lee
"If an AOLer hates it, it's probably quite good!"
- John Hwang (c) 2000
Old Bear
"incrdbil" <incr...@nospam.flinthills.com> wrote in message
news:397f1039...@usenet.flinthills.com...
'fraid so....
--
Ian
'Look, the deal is I get to shag the green bird. It's in the contract...take
a fucking look.' - William Shatner (over proposed script changes to the
episode: Kirk Gets Tits)
Xaixer_uk
and Seer Stones), Warlock (Conceal) in 500 pts game
His casultry 1 WG and 2 wounds of the Farseer (I love night fights when the
only model I can see is a Independent character not with a squad)
Mine - Big Mek (Was allow to take a big mek rather than a warboss as
leader), zzap cannon and a couple of orks.
Won on Quarters 2 to none. He just didn't have the numbers to claim any.
La Grief
<paladin...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8lmvmr$mik$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
| In article <NGCf5.8$Eq1....@sapphire.mtt.net>,
| "Emmanuel W. Simms" <esi...@tim.ca> wrote:
| > I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the players
| are
| > brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500) to
| let
| > everyone have some time to build up their armies.
| >
| > My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
| > players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines,
| Chaos
| > Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say
| that
| > using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
| >
| > Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think
| Wraithlords
| > are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of
| this
| > fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
|
| Seriously, if there is any distance between you and the eldar player,
| see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
::grins at sight of many replies....Lee knows what has been said::
La Grief
| > brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500) to let
| > everyone have some time to build up their armies.
| >
| > My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
| > players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines, Chaos
| > Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say that
| > using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
| >
| > Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think Wraithlords
| > are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of this
| > fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
|
| heavy choice, or no heavy choices, or something. I still wouldn't recommend
| this.
Why? Wraithlords are uber. Especially in 500 point leauges.
| What I would recommend is playing him a few times and obliterate those
| wraithlords. Bring a marine army with a missle launcher devastator squad. Bring
| a non-wraithlord eldar army with wraith guard, rangers, or d-cannons. Try any
| imperial army with an eversor assassin. Or an archon with agonizer, combat
| drugs, and a shadow field. Any of these things should rip apart a wraithlord
| quickly and show the other players that they can be beaten.
Also, IIRC, costs more than the WL....
| Tell the ork player
| to try tying him up with a large mob that he'll never be able to kill.
Uh? what? yes, you can get a large 20 mob unit, they won't run, but thats an awful
lot of troops to waste tying up a WL in a 500 pt league.
La Grief
<r4...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ln51f$r44$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
| In article <snu2n0t...@corp.supernews.com>,
| "Tom Beliech" <pont...@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:
| >
| > GrimWulf <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
| > news:pBDf5.47259$FQ.51...@news0.telusplanet.net...
| > >
| > > > see these things as any different than a marine dread or a
| carnifex?
| > > >
| > >
| > >
| wounded by
| > > small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
| > >
| > > There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make
| him more
| > > effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even
| move,
| > > these are problems with dreads.
| >
| > Precisely. Sure, the WL is easier to HURT than a Dreadnaught,
| especially
| > with a lascannon or missile launcher, but you've got to hurt him 3
| such
| > times to have ANY effect whatsoever.
| >
| > The typical Heavy weapons squad has a good chance of taking out a
| Dread with
| > a single round of fire, because one hit CAN kill. Against a
| Wraithlord,
| > they'll probably have to fire twice as much, which keeps their
| attention
| > away from other targets they could have been taking out.
| >
| > Anything that can simply laugh at a Battlecannon shot - no, TWO
| Battlecannon
| > shots - is too much.
| >
| why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the Eldar
| army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that what is
| really important?
Because The wraithlords can, in essance, be ignored in bigger games. This is a 500
point league...
r4...@my-deja.com
***sen...@aol.com*** wrote:
> r4...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > If the Wraithlord is "too much" why isn't it dominating games and
> > why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the
Eldar
> > army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that
what is
> > really important?
>
the
> army construction rules. In a 1500 point game, any army should be
able
> to deal with three Wraithlords without much problem. However, in a
500
> point game, most armies simply don't have that kind of firepower, and
> what firepower they have can probably be eliminated by the three
> Wraithlords before they expire.
>
> It is for precisely this reason that I generally don't play such low
> point games. The force organization chart simply breaks down in terms
> of army balance.
>
> I'd recommend either raising the point level to 1000 or 1500 points or
> altering the force organization charts for the mission so that you
can't
> fullfill your troop requirements with two forty point guardian squads
> and throw the rest into heavy support.
>
I personally like the guideline that
Number of Troops >= All other types combined.
Even if the minimise the size of their squads it helps reduce cheese
without picking on any one particular army or playing style.
> ---
> Rob Glunt
La Grief
Smith <Smit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8ln45l$qfv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
|
|
| > I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the players
| are
| > brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500)
| to let
| > everyone have some time to build up their armies.
| >
| > My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
| > players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines,
| Chaos
| > Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say
| that
| > using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
| >
| > Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think
| Wraithlords
| > are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of
| this
| > fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
| >
|
| squads with a lascannon and a plasma gun, 500 points, hell, they
| could get 2 of these squads and a dreadnought for 115 points that
| has a plasma cannon. That's 307 points, with the rest they could
| get creative, one just get another 5 man squad or a really brutal
| command squad. Sounds like your players need to buy more
| heavey weapon figs..
The question is....do the forces have to stay the same in every battle or can they
change?
GrimWulf
--
Rod "GrimWulf" Chrenek
Web Designer/A+ Certified Technician
"Hyperspace transition is uncomfortably like being drunk." "What's so bad
about being drunk?" "Ask a glass of water."
<paladin...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ln256$ojb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <pBDf5.47259$FQ.51...@news0.telusplanet.net>,
> "GrimWulf" <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> >
> > I don't understand how people
> > > see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
> > >
> >
> > Maybe because a dread can die in one shot, a carnifex can be wounded
> by
> > small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
> >
> > There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make him
> more
> > effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even
> move,
> > these are problems with dreads.
> >
> > your standard Str 4 SM, CSM, or Ork at least have a 'chance' to kill
> dreads
> > and carnifex's, against a wraithlord their dead.
>
> Against a dread, how? Unless it is immobilized (meaning it has already
> been shot and damaged at least once) they cannot get to the rear armour.
> If the dread has been shot and damaged, that means that the same
> wraithlord would have been shot and wounded at least once. H2H versus
> any of the above is suicidal, unless you have multiple powerfist armed
> guys or you are the blood angels.
>
> -Stephen
>
>
John Hwang
> are brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points
> (500) to let everyone have some time to build up their armies.
OK.
> My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
> players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines,
> Chaos Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The
> players say that using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
Uh-oh... :)
> Any ideas on how they can even the playing field?
IIRC, the Marine answers are Preds and Razorbacks w/ Lascannon, w/ lots
of MLs. CSM take their Preds and/or a SCAFH core (Veterans and Havocs
w/MLs); 'nids take Lictors; DE take a SDEAFH core (Warriors w/ 2 Dark
Lances each). IG, SM, and SoB take an Eversor Assassin. SM/CSM twin
Lascannon & ML Dreads. And so on.
> I don't think Wraithlords are overly powerful, but I am having
> trouble convincing my players of this fact.
Until players get a handle on what it takes to kill them, Wraithlords
are terrifying. Otherwise, it's just another army.
3 Wraithlords in 500 pts is very tough and mean. But it's not
unbeatable. There are a variety of really strong counters available to
*all* of the armies.
> Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
Search Deja for this thread from a while ago.
For 500 pts, I hope you didn't give access to the full standard mission
chart! I'd go with 1 HQ, 2-4 Troops, 0-1 for Elite/Fast/Heavy.
Add 250 pts every month or so. In a larger battle, individual models
(such as Wraithlords) have smaller impacts. And their counters are
easier to field.
--
--- John Hwang "J_H...@my-deja.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
vermillian
r4...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <snu2n0t...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Tom Beliech" <pont...@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:
> >
> > GrimWulf <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> > news:pBDf5.47259$FQ.51...@news0.telusplanet.net...
> > >
> > > > see these things as any different than a marine dread or a
> carnifex?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe because a dread can die in one shot, a carnifex can be
> wounded by
> > > small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
> > >
> > > There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make
> him more
> > > effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even
> move,
> > > these are problems with dreads.
> >
> especially
> > with a lascannon or missile launcher, but you've got to hurt him 3
> such
> > times to have ANY effect whatsoever.
> >
> > The typical Heavy weapons squad has a good chance of taking out a
> Dread with
> > a single round of fire, because one hit CAN kill. Against a
> Wraithlord,
> > they'll probably have to fire twice as much, which keeps their
> attention
> > away from other targets they could have been taking out.
> >
> > Anything that can simply laugh at a Battlecannon shot - no, TWO
> Battlecannon
> > shots - is too much.
> >
> why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the
Eldar
> army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that what
is
> really important?
No cause not everyone fields 3 WLs in every battle because they know
they'd be killed after the game by his opponent.
--
~Screaming Vermillian
ScreamVermillian on AIM
The Divine-Self-Appointed (yes I realize this is sort of a
contradiction % (see below)) King of Parantheticals
Frabjuous Footnote User @ (see below, also)
Anti-grammar nazi activist
% Of course, anything that has to do with divinity, or religion, is (of
course this is philosophically debatable).
@ Although it has been a while since I've last used a footnote...
John Hwang
> > I don't understand how people see these things as any different
> > than a marine dread or a carnifex?
>
> Maybe because a dread can die in one shot,
Conversely, a dread can (theoretically) absorb an infinite number of
Glancing and Penetrating hits without ever taking permanent damage or
being destroyed if everything results in Stunned and Shaken. Any 3
results which would Glance or Penetrate a Dread kill a Wraithlord.
From the analysis, which, BTW, has been done to death (check Deja), the
Dread is slightly easier to kill, but has superior long-range
firepower. If the player can't take advantage of his strengths and
minimize his weaknesses, he's going to lose Wraithlord, Dread, or
otherwise.
> a carnifex can be wounded by small arms fire,
On 6's..., but to be honest, any 'nig player letting his 'fexes take a
lot of small arms fire deserves to lose. That's why they're screenable
infantry models.
> and has only a 5+ save?
With his invulernable save, Carnifexes can survive much more heavy fire
than a Wraithlord.
> There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make
> him more
Less.
> effective while he closes with you,
The obvious answer is to shoot him dead at range. Quickly.
And it's not that hard.
> maybe stun him so he cant even move, these are problems with dreads.
Extra Armour.
> your standard Str 4 SM, CSM, or Ork at least have a 'chance' to kill
> dreads and carnifex's, against a wraithlord their dead.
SM and CSM and Orks don't have a chance against AV12 Dreads.
--
--- John Hwang "J_H...@my-deja.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
John Hwang
> GrimWulf <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote ...
> > > I don't understand how people see these things as any different
> > > than a marine dread or a carnifex?
> >
> > wounded by small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
> >
> > There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make
> > cant even move, these are problems with dreads.
>
> especially with a lascannon or missile launcher,
Wrong! A T8 WL takes a wound every time a weapon Glances or Penetrates
AV12.
Except for S5 weapons, which don't do squat to AV12.
> but you've got to hurt him 3 such times to have ANY effect
> whatsoever.
Yes. But you've got to score something other than Shaken or Stunned to
affect a Dread.
> The typical Heavy weapons squad has a good chance of taking out a
> Dread with a single round of fire, because one hit CAN kill.
With luck.
> Against a Wraithlord, they'll probably have to fire twice as much,
> which keeps their attention away from other targets they could have
> been taking out.
On average, for BS4 S8 AP3 MLs, it takes 7.7 for the Dread, 9.0 for the
Wraithlord. That's 2 rounds of fire for each target.
> Anything that can simply laugh at a Battlecannon shot - no, TWO
> Battlecannon shots - is too much.
Anything that can simply laugh at a squad of S5 AP3 Reaper Launchers -
no, TWO squads of Reaper Launchers - is too much.
Smith
> |
> | For 96 points, marines and Chaos marines can buy 5 man tactical
> | squads with a lascannon and a plasma gun, 500 points, hell, they
> | could get 2 of these squads and a dreadnought for 115 points that
> | has a plasma cannon. That's 307 points, with the rest they could
> | get creative, one just get another 5 man squad or a really brutal
> | command squad. Sounds like your players need to buy more
> | heavey weapon figs..
>
> The question is....do the forces have to stay the same in every
battle or can they
> change?
>
Even if they did, this would be a pretty decent 500 point army
against every body, especially if the command squad was given
2 heavy bolters. I mean how many orks or tyranids can you squeeze
into one 500 point army. And if you are fighting IG, all you
have to do is kill the damn tanks and get stuck in hand to hand
for the rest of the game. if nothing else, the IG are pretty
weak in HtH unless you are playing an army tooled for it.
Smith
--
I can See a perfect world without violence and hatred....
.... And I can see us attacking that world because
they would never expect it..
John Hwang
> <r4...@my-deja.com> wrote in message ...
> | If the Wraithlord is "too much" why isn't it dominating games and
> | why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the
> | Eldar army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't
> | that what is really important?
>
Yup.
> this is a 500 point league...
Yup. The fact of the matter is that the League wasn't structured
properly. There are simply too many non-Troops slots available for
a "balanced" 500-point League in which a very wide variety of armies
are fully competitive. To do it properly, there should be an
abbreviated organization chart.
That said, the Wraithlords can be easily countered even at the 500
point level. But it takes a serious/cutthroat army. Just like the
Wraithlord army. Refer back to the original 3 Wraithlords in 500
points thread for details.
--
--- John Hwang "J_H...@my-deja.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
John Hwang
> Doug <djco...@gte.net> wrote ...
> > > I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the
> > > players are brand new, we are starting at a conservative number
> > > of points (500) to let everyone have some time to build up
> > > their armies.
> > >
> > > Eldar players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space
> > > Marines, Chaos Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the
> > > Wraithlords. The players say that using a Wraithlord in a 500
> > > point army is unfair.
> > Tell the ork player to try tying him up with a large mob that
> > he'll never be able to kill. And I suppose the tyranid player
> > could try the same thing, but they'll really just have to wait
> > for a codex... ;)
Why? Termagants are cheap and Fearless in Assault if within Synapse
range. They are unquestionably the best units available to tie up
Wraithlords in HtH.
> But therein lies a problem with 40K3's Assault system. In 40K2,
> sending a mob of Grots after a hard target was a valid tactic - one
> could only kill so many Grots in a turn before the bonuses piled up
> enough to actually hit the character. Even if they couldn't WOUND
> him, the grots could keep him pinned. In 40K3, although uber-
> characters are less powerful, assaults still favor the character in
> this case - he only has to kill ONE Grot to have a chance to make
> ALL the rest scream and run in panic.
Which is why Doug specified Orks (who check size instad of morale) and
Tyranids (who have Synapse rules).
> Of course, one can't even pin a Wraithlord.
Of course. But Alaitoc Pathfinders would go thru one in a hurry.
> What we need is a ST14 weapon specifically designed to insta-kill
> these abominations ;)
S14 vs T8 means it wounds on a 2+, but does not cause Instant Death.
Instant Death would require S16.
That said, Wraithcannon scores Instant Death against any model on a to-
Wound of a 6.
But to be honest, any decent shooty army can handle WLs without too
much problem. And as noted elsewhere, the Archons and Eversors can
take care of themselves in HtH.
BTW, your S14 (sould be S16) weapon would be cool against stuff like
Land Raiders and Leman Russ'.
Anyhow, from your previous posts and what's demonstrated above,
methinks you're a little soft on the rules and armies... I'll bet
Wraithlords actually *do* scare you and that they actually *do* cause
you trouble on the battlefield.
JohnDoe
like-
2 troop
1 on any other
1 Hq - no attachments or body guard.
that should solve it.
John doe
Pat wrote in message <20000726202342...@ng-fy1.aol.com>...
>>> I don't think Wraithlords are overly powerful, but I am having
>>> trouble convincing my players of this fact.
>>
>>Until players get a handle on what it takes to kill them, Wraithlords
>>are terrifying. Otherwise, it's just another army.
>
>My opponents seem to know how to handle mine. Missle Launchers knock the
snot
>outa WL's!
>
>
>---Pat
>
>"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Neal
Pat wrote:
>
> >> I don't think Wraithlords are overly powerful, but I am having
> >> trouble convincing my players of this fact.
> >
> >Until players get a handle on what it takes to kill them, Wraithlords
> >are terrifying. Otherwise, it's just another army.
>
> My opponents seem to know how to handle mine. Missle Launchers knock the snot
> outa WL's!
Wraithlords have more snot than you think:
2/3 of shots hit * 1/2 of those shots wound = 1/3 of a wound per shot.
So a measley *nine* shots with a Missile Launcher and you kill one
Wraithlord (On the average). Try getting off twenty-seven shots to kill
three Wraithlords in a 500 point game - I am willing to bet it can't be done.
-Neal
Pat
>> trouble convincing my players of this fact.
>
>Until players get a handle on what it takes to kill them, Wraithlords
>are terrifying. Otherwise, it's just another army.
My opponents seem to know how to handle mine. Missle Launchers knock the snot
outa WL's!
Aristeia
John Hwang <j_h...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Yes. But you've got to score something other than Shaken or Stunned
> to affect a Dread.
Shaken results do have a real effect on Dreads though--they completely
suppress it's fire for a turn. Nothing permanent, but it means that
it's plasma cannon (or whatever) isn't going to be firing next turn and
all it can do is lumber forward slowly towards the enemy. (Stun results
of course also prevent it from moving, but with extra armor, they should
never happen.) Wraithlords, OTOH, are guaranteed to be able to keep
firing until they die.
Aristeia
Carlos Arthur
>
> > My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
> > players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines,
> > Chaos Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The
> > players say that using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
>
>
> > I don't think Wraithlords are overly powerful, but I am having
> > trouble convincing my players of this fact.
>
> Until players get a handle on what it takes to kill them, Wraithlords
> are terrifying. Otherwise, it's just another army.
>
> 3 Wraithlords in 500 pts is very tough and mean. But it's not
> unbeatable. There are a variety of really strong counters available to
> *all* of the armies.
>
>
> For 500 pts, I hope you didn't give access to the full standard mission
> chart! I'd go with 1 HQ, 2-4 Troops, 0-1 for Elite/Fast/Heavy.
>
> Add 250 pts every month or so. In a larger battle, individual models
> (such as Wraithlords) have smaller impacts. And their counters are
> easier to field.
>
Rather than disallowing Wraithlords, or coming up with new mission charts,
why not apply a limitation that already applies to Ghost Warrior Armies:
For every Wraithlord fielded, you must field a unit of Wraithguard. This
would effectively limit the player to one Wraithlord per 500 points of the
army, and the Wraithlords would be limited by both the maximum number of
elites and heavy support units. It's also fairly in the "spirit" of the
game in that if you have access to the spirit stones of great Eldar heroes,
you probably also have access to some lesser Eldar warriors' stones too.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing this as a general restriction on all
Wraithlords.
Also, try doing scenarios with force org. charts that limit your allowable
number of heavy support choices, or force them to come in as reserves.
This would help even the field. Also, you might try Jungle terrain, which
really limits the effectiveness of those long-range WL weapons. Snipers
are also effective as well (or any other SX weapons). Plus, their cost is
much lower than the Wraithlord, so even if they get whacked, the victory
point loss isn't as bad. Plasma weapons and meltas are also useful. A
couple imperial guard units can be quite effective, especially for their
relative cost.
--
---
Carl Arthur <yello...@earthlink.net>
Riboflavin
>I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the players are
>brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500) to let
>everyone have some time to build up their armies.
>
>players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines, Chaos
>Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say that
>using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
I would say that A Wraithlord would be fine and dandy, but if he's using
more than one then it is unfair on 500pts, especially if the players can't
change their lists to deal with it. The selections are balanced for 500pt
armies (where there are many ways to deal with 3 WLs), with only 500pts you
can take a minimal leader and 2 minimal troops squads, then throw the rest
of your points into one of the other categories and have something a basic
500pt army just can't handle.
>Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think
Wraithlords
>are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of this
>fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
>
I'd say limit the guy to 1 WL, by cutting down the force org chart
dramatically (Something like 3-4 troops and one of each other choice). You
don't want to just cut him down to 1 WL as a special case (since you'll end
up with other screwey 500pt armies), but a 'one of each' org chart would
still allow variety but prevent overloading one unit type.
--
Kevin Allegood ribotr...@mindspring.pants.com
Remove the pants from my email address to reply
"I think Dungeons & Dragons really went downhill once they changed
the half-elves from 'Chaotic Neutral' to 'Gay Republican.'" - Kibo
Riboflavin
>| why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the Eldar
>| army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that what is
>| really important?
>
is a 500
>point league...
>
army much more in 500pts. If a ~125pt dred loses a turn to stunned in a
1500pt game, it's no big deal - that's less than 10% of your force losing a
turn of firing. In a 500pt game, though, that's 25% of your force losing a
turn, a much more devastating effect. That means that the WL's wounds
instead of charts works much more to their advantage than it normally does.
That's the big reason why the 'Wraithlords are better than Dreds because
they can probably win a one-on-one fight' arguments are silly - the real
question is whether a 1500pt army with 1-3 wraithlords can beat a 1500pt
army of the other player's. Some of the things that are extremely minor in a
1500pt game (like 'crew stunned' on a dred) are devastating in a 500pt (or,
heaven forbid, a 125pt) game.
Xpuctaqp
>So a measley *nine* shots with a Missile Launcher and you
>kill one Wraithlord (On the average). Try getting off
>twenty-seven shots to kill three Wraithlords in a 500
>point game - I am willing to bet it can't be done.
*sarcasm mode on*
Ah, but didn't you hear what man boy god Gavin Thorpe
said????? You should just IGNORE wraithlords.....
*sarcasm mode off*
Seriously though, at first, I didn't think that with 500 points
you could field 3 wraithlords. But then, I checked it out
and sure enough....no problem. A 40 point farseer, 2
five man 40 point guardian squads. Still leaves you with
380 points for wraithlords. Put starcannons on 2 of them
and a bright lance on the third.
At 500 points, this army is now more or less invincible...
manateeX
---------------
manateeX
mattna...@my-deja.com
They wound on a 4+ and on a "6" they vaporize the wraithlord, no save.
Put 5 in a wave-serpent lead by a farseer with mindwar (good chance of
wounding).
For non-eldar players...
Marines: 5 Land Speeders with multi-meltas (two squads of 1, one squad
of three). 2 squads of scouts, all with CCW, and a leader with 15
points of wargear. Use your speed to concentrate fire on 1 wraithlord
at a time. Scouts take corners/objectives, leader shits his pants.
IG-lots of lascannons.
Tyranids-Lictors and genestealers (only with the rumor rule of auto
wounding no save on a "6" to hit, cost reduced to 16 points).
Chaos: Bloodthirster if you can get him in, otherwise, 3 predators and
2 cultist squads. OR, 50 unarmed cultists lead by character with mark
of undivided (re-roll Ld). Run and assault Wraithlord, tie them up for
the whole game.
Dark Eldar: Just give up, you can't win against on equal player.
Orks: these too may be up shit creek, but I've not played them enough
to know for sure. Could just jump with 30 strong mob, and let them
kill orks in hand to hanad the whole game.
-Maka
Xpuctaqp
>Conversely, a dread can (theoretically) absorb an infinite
>number of Glancing and Penetrating hits without ever taking
>permanent damage or being destroyed if everything
>results in Stunned and Shaken. Any 3 results which
>would Glance or Penetrate a Dread kill a Wraithlord.
Wrong. You are assuming front armour. This is not
always the case....
Versus the REAR armour of a dreadnough a strength 4
weapon, like a bolter, splinter cannon, will glance on a
6+. Versus a wraithlord, these weapons go *ting* *ting*.
A heavy bolter, versus the rear armor affects on a 5+.
Versus the wraithlord, it wounds on a 6+. And the wraith
lord gets a save.
So, no, any 3 results which would glance or penetrate a
dread do NOT kill a wraithlord.
Further, a stunned or immobilized dreadnought is vulnerable
to krak and haywire grenades. Can krak or haywire grenades
hurt a wraithlord? No. Can a dreadnought get a cover save?
No. A wraithlord in cover now has an invulnerable save.
Hell BIKES can't get cover saves, but nooooooo Gavin's
precious Wrathlord can have a cover save.....
manateeX
---------------
manateeX
John Hwang
> r4...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > If the Wraithlord is "too much" why isn't it dominating games and
> > why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the
> > Eldar army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't
> > that what is really important?
>
> No cause not everyone fields 3 WLs in every battle because they know
> they'd be killed after the game by his opponent.
Of course they still have to win the battle *with* the 3 WLs. In most
cases, taking all WLs for one's Heavy Support will prove to be a
mistake.
Of course Codex: Craftworld Eldar throws a monkey wrench into the
works, so it might be practical and workable under Alaitoc or Biel-
Tan.
Iyanden saddles the army with loads of Wraithguard, so no problems
there; Saim-Hann severely restricts numbers, so no problems there
either. Ulthwe doesn't do anything special to the Heavy Support, so
this shakes out like the basic Codex: Eldar.
--
--- John Hwang "J_H...@my-deja.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
John Hwang
> John Hwang <j_h...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Yes. But you've got to score something other than Shaken or Stunned
> > to affect a Dread.
>
> Shaken results do have a real effect on Dreads though--they
> completely suppress it's fire for a turn. Nothing permanent, but it
> means that it's plasma cannon (or whatever) isn't going to be firing
> next turn and all it can do is lumber forward slowly towards the
> enemy. (Stun results of course also prevent it from moving, but
> with extra armor, they should never happen.)
I know that. But unless you have more pressing targets in addition to
the Dread available after you've stunned or shaken it, it means your
Heavy firepower is still needed on that Dread. Just as there are the 1-
shot Dread kills, there are other Dreads that simply refuse to die.
> Wraithlords, OTOH, are guaranteed to be able to keep firing until
> they die.
With adequate Heavy weapons, this is a *lot* easier, and predictable
than above. It's nice being able to *guarantee* that the Wraithlord
drops on the third wound.
John Hwang
> j_hwang writes:
>
> >Conversely, a dread can (theoretically) absorb an infinite
> >number of Glancing and Penetrating hits without ever taking
> >permanent damage or being destroyed if everything
> >results in Stunned and Shaken. Any 3 results which
> >would Glance or Penetrate a Dread kill a Wraithlord.
>
> Wrong. You are assuming front armour.
Wrong. See below...
> This is not always the case....
Correct. It holds for the Side armour as well.
> Versus the REAR armour of a dreadnough a strength 4
> weapon, like a bolter, splinter cannon, will glance on a
> 6+. Versus a wraithlord, these weapons go *ting* *ting*.
Tell me, how often are you turning your Dreads around so that the enemy
is getting shots at the *Rear* armour?
> A heavy bolter, versus the rear armor affects on a 5+.
> Versus the wraithlord, it wounds on a 6+. And the wraith
> lord gets a save.
Then consider the S5 AP3 Reaper Launcher.
> So, no, any 3 results which would glance or penetrate a
> dread do NOT kill a wraithlord.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
> Further, a stunned or immobilized dreadnought is vulnerable
> to krak and haywire grenades. Can krak or haywire grenades
> hurt a wraithlord? No. Can a dreadnought get a cover save?
> No. A wraithlord in cover now has an invulnerable save.
> Hell BIKES can't get cover saves, but nooooooo Gavin's
> precious Wrathlord can have a cover save.....
Shall we talk about Stream of Corruption and Sniper Rifles now???
All of this stuff has been covered before, and it's simply not worth
the effort to regurgitate. See the previous thread on Deja.
John Hwang
> Neal Fal...@writeme.com writes:
>
> >So a measley *nine* shots with a Missile Launcher and you
> >kill one Wraithlord (On the average). Try getting off
> >twenty-seven shots to kill three Wraithlords in a 500
> >point game - I am willing to bet it can't be done.
I'd take that bet, any day of the week. I just need a SDEAFH core.
With 10 Dark Lances in the army, I only need 3 turns to finish them
off.
And with SM or CSM, I can get equally good results with proper
application of Las weapons and MLs.
> *sarcasm mode on*
> Ah, but didn't you hear what man boy god Gavin Thorpe
> said????? You should just IGNORE wraithlords.....
> *sarcasm mode off*
Actually, most of the time, that's what I do. Until it's time to kill
them. All of my armies can afford to soak the few casualties per turn
they'll cause until I'm ready and in position to finish them off.
> Seriously though, at first, I didn't think that with 500 points
> you could field 3 wraithlords. But then, I checked it out
> and sure enough....no problem. A 40 point farseer, 2
> five man 40 point guardian squads. Still leaves you with
> 380 points for wraithlords. Put starcannons on 2 of them
> and a bright lance on the third.
You still require a psychic power for the Farseer. Which should be
Mind War to leave a few points for the Farseer's pistol and CCW.
> At 500 points, this army is now more or less invincible...
If I played Dark Eldar, I'd have an easy time of showing you the how
much "less" it is...
John Hwang
> > > My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the
> > > Eldar players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space
> > > Marines, Chaos Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the
> > > Wraithlords. The players say that using a Wraithlord in a 500
> > > point army is unfair.
> >
> > > trouble convincing my players of this fact.
> >
> > Wraithlords are terrifying. Otherwise, it's just another army.
> >
> > 3 Wraithlords in 500 pts is very tough and mean. But it's not
> > unbeatable. There are a variety of really strong counters
> > available to *all* of the armies.
> >
> > For 500 pts, I hope you didn't give access to the full standard
> > mission chart! I'd go with 1 HQ, 2-4 Troops, 0-1 for
> > Elite/Fast/Heavy.
> >
> > Add 250 pts every month or so. In a larger battle, individual
> > models (such as Wraithlords) have smaller impacts. And their
> > counters are easier to field.
>
> Rather than disallowing Wraithlords, or coming up with new mission
> charts, why not apply a limitation that already applies to Ghost
> Warrior Armies:
Because not every Wraithlord is from a Ghost Warrior army.
The other reason is that a new force structure affects *all* players
*equally* (at least to the extent that the various unit classes are
equally balanced within individual army lists).
> For every Wraithlord fielded, you must field a unit of Wraithguard.
OK. And for every Dreadnought fielded, you must field a unit of
Terminators.
> This would effectively limit the player to one Wraithlord per 500
> points of the army, and the Wraithlords would be limited by both
> the maximum number of elites and heavy support units.
Yes it would. But why so many restrictions? Please explain from a
game design and balance standpoint.
> It's also fairly in the "spirit" of the game in that if you have
> access to the spirit stones of great Eldar heroes, you probably
> also have access to some lesser Eldar warriors' stones too.
It's also in the "spirit" that if you have true Dreadnoughts, you have
Tactical Dreadnoughts, too.
> Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing this as a general restriction on all
> Wraithlords.
Obviously, you don't play Eldar.
But then I wouldn't mind seeing the above general restriction on all
Dreads, either. At least until mine arrives. Which, unfortunately,
should be tomorrow...
> Also, try doing scenarios with force org. charts that limit your
> allowable number of heavy support choices, or force them to come in
> as reserves. This would help even the field. Also, you might try
> Jungle terrain, which really limits the effectiveness of those long-
> range WL weapons. Snipers are also effective as well (or any other
> SX weapons). Plus, their cost is much lower than the Wraithlord, so
> even if they get whacked, the victory point loss isn't as bad.
> Plasma weapons and meltas are also useful. A couple imperial guard
> units can be quite effective, especially for their relative cost.
Tell me, why do you feel it is so very, very necessary to throw special
restrictions on one unit of one army???
Wassamatta -- can't handle it???
John Hwang
> Wraithguard!
> They wound on a 4+ and on a "6" they vaporize the wraithlord, no save.
Of course. Wraithguard *are* the premier monster-hunters of 40k3.
> Put 5 in a wave-serpent lead by a farseer with mindwar (good chance of
> wounding).
Mind war averages only 1 wound.
> For non-eldar players...
> Marines: 5 Land Speeders with multi-meltas (two squads of 1, one squad
> of three). 2 squads of scouts, all with CCW, and a leader with 15
> points of wargear. Use your speed to concentrate fire on 1 wraithlord
> at a time. Scouts take corners/objectives, leader shits his pants.
Predators and shooty Dreads are better. Eversor is best.
> IG-lots of lascannons.
I'd prefer loads of Plas, Meltas, and MLs; cheaper that way. Eversor.
> Tyranids-Lictors and genestealers (only with the rumor rule of auto
> wounding no save on a "6" to hit, cost reduced to 16 points).
???
> Chaos: Bloodthirster if you can get him in,
To hard/expensive to summon in a small game.
> otherwise, 3 predators
OK.
> and 2 cultist squads. OR, 50 unarmed cultists lead by character with
> mark of undivided (re-roll Ld). Run and assault Wraithlord, tie them
> up for the whole game.
This works, but is a only practical in large games, where you can
afford to have units just sit around.
> Dark Eldar: Just give up, you can't win against on equal player.
Wrong! SDEAFH does *exceptionally* well against WLs.
> Orks: these too may be up shit creek, but I've not played them enough
> to know for sure. Could just jump with 30 strong mob, and let them
> kill orks in hand to hanad the whole game.
???
Old Bear
> Is using a dreadnought unfair in 500pts? Does no one use heavy weapons?
> Seriously, if there is any distance between you and the eldar player,
> that wraithlord will get shot up alot. I don't understand how people
> see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
They are probably going to be playing on a 4'x4', being as it's 500 points.
--
Ian
"Yo, pre-tty lay-deez, a-round the world..."
"What in God's name is happening on the bridge Mr Spock?"
"You don't want to know, Mr Scott. The captain has recovered a karaoke
machine."
"But the only record he has is the Best of 20th Century Soul Funk..."
"...tell your brother, your sister and your ma-ma too.."
(Excerpt from the ST episode: Kirk Gets It On)
Old Bear
"John Hwang" <j_h...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8lnsnm$dr7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Tom Beliech" <pont...@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:
> > Doug <djco...@gte.net> wrote ...
> > > > I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the
> > > > players are brand new, we are starting at a conservative number
> > > > of points (500) to let everyone have some time to build up
> > > > their armies.
> > > >
> > > > Eldar players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space
> > > > Marines, Chaos Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the
> > > > Wraithlords. The players say that using a Wraithlord in a 500
> > > > point army is unfair.
>
> > > he'll never be able to kill. And I suppose the tyranid player
> > > could try the same thing, but they'll really just have to wait
> > > for a codex... ;)
>
> Why? Termagants are cheap and Fearless in Assault if within Synapse
> range. They are unquestionably the best units available to tie up
> Wraithlords in HtH.
Unlike Orks. Needing at least 20, with a nob preferably with an Iron Gob,
the points total is twice that of the Wraithlord. Not a great idea. Best
thing is to outmanouevre the thing/s and not let them get close. They are
pretty slow, after all.
Old Bear
"GrimWulf" <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:pBDf5.47259$FQ.51...@news0.telusplanet.net...
>
> > see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
> >
>
>
> small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
>
> There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make him more
> effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even move,
> these are problems with dreads.
>
dreads
> and carnifex's, against a wraithlord their dead.
Obviously WLs *can* be killed, out-manoeuvred, etc. The problem lies in the
fact that for the points they are arguably the most useful unit in the
entire game, at least in the hands of a good Eldar commander. Luckily around
here, they have become a kiddy army, and we all know how much use they are.
Old Bear
> > news:pBDf5.47259$FQ.51...@news0.telusplanet.net...
> > >
> > > I don't understand how people
> > > > see these things as any different than a marine dread or a
> carnifex?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe because a dread can die in one shot, a carnifex can be
> wounded by
> > > small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
> > >
> > > There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make
> him more
> > > effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even
> move,
> > > these are problems with dreads.
> >
> especially
> such
> > times to have ANY effect whatsoever.
> >
> Dread with
> Wraithlord,
> > they'll probably have to fire twice as much, which keeps their
> attention
> > away from other targets they could have been taking out.
> >
> Battlecannon
> > shots - is too much.
> >
> why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the Eldar
> army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that what is
> really important?
Lies, damned lies...and statistics. I think a lot of the 'better' players
who like a challenge have been put off by the balance in the Eldar list. A
good pal of mine has gone Eldar and continually enthuses about the tactics
he is going to be able to use because of all the quality upgrades that they
have, and the vast range of options. Thank god he isn't actually quite as
good a player as he thinks he is.
Old Bear
"incrdbil" <incr...@nospam.flinthills.com> wrote in message
news:397f129e...@usenet.flinthills.com...
> here is a similar type force I once saw being played--it wasn't the
> entire force, just a scenario where you could bring a single 500 point
> detachment from another army
>
> This is an approximation--weaposn loads might have been slightly
> different, but this is the gist of what the guy thought a small "Eldar
> reinforcement group" would be.
>
> 1 Avatar of Khaine @ 80 pts
> Wailing Doom
>
> 5 Guardian Defender Squad @ 40 pts
> Shuriken Catapult
>
> 5 Guardian Defender Squad @ 40 pts
> Shuriken Catapult
>
> 1 Wraithlord @ 100 pts
> Flamer (x1)
> Shuriken Catapult (x2)
> Shuriken Cannon
>
> 1 Wraithlord @ 120 pts
> Flamer (x1)
> Shuriken Catapult (x2)
> Bright Lance
>
> 1 Wraithlord @ 120 pts
> Flamer (x1)
> Shuriken Catapult (x1)
> Star Cannon
>
> Models in Army: 14
>
> Total Army Cost: 500
Sadly, perfectly legal. Proof that *all* Eldar lists should be restricted to
ONE in an army.
Old Bear
"Tom Beliech" <pont...@pcola.gulf.net> wrote in message
news:snu2n0t...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> GrimWulf <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> news:pBDf5.47259$FQ.51...@news0.telusplanet.net...
> >
> > I don't understand how people
> > > see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Maybe because a dread can die in one shot, a carnifex can be wounded by
> > small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
> >
> > There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make him
more
> > effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even move,
> > these are problems with dreads.
>
> Precisely. Sure, the WL is easier to HURT than a Dreadnaught, especially
> with a lascannon or missile launcher, but you've got to hurt him 3 such
> times to have ANY effect whatsoever.
>
> The typical Heavy weapons squad has a good chance of taking out a Dread
with
> a single round of fire, because one hit CAN kill.
Or at least effectively take it out of action for the next turn.
Against a Wraithlord,
> they'll probably have to fire twice as much, which keeps their attention
> away from other targets they could have been taking out.
Which is perhaps the WL's greatest gift to Eldar players. If I played Eldar,
I'd fill my heavy slots with them. Well, two at least.
>
> Anything that can simply laugh at a Battlecannon shot - no, TWO
Battlecannon
> shots - is too much.
Totally agree. They should have put in a mini critical hit table for it.
Nothing terminal, but equivalent to stuns and the like.
Old Bear
>
> >>
> > If the Wraithlord is "too much" why isn't it dominating games and
> >why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the Eldar
> >army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that what is
> >really important?
> >
>
> situation--multiple Wraithlords in a 500 point game--thats the
> specific problem we are trying to address.
3 WL's on a 4'x4' table with 500 points per side is not going to be nice.
That's for sure.
Old Bear
"Rob Glunt" <***sen...@aol.com***> wrote in message
news:qiGf5.66062$A%3.88...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> r4...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > If the Wraithlord is "too much" why isn't it dominating games and
> > why aren't the Eldar the "winningest" army in 40K. Obviously the Eldar
> > army isn't "too much" even if the Wraithlord is, and isn't that what is
> > really important?
>
> army construction rules. In a 1500 point game, any army should be able
> to deal with three Wraithlords without much problem.
That's cobblers for a start.
Old Bear
> > your standard Str 4 SM, CSM, or Ork at least have a 'chance' to kill
> dreads
> > and carnifex's, against a wraithlord their dead.
>
> been shot and damaged at least once) they cannot get to the rear armour.
They can if they were already behind the dread at the start of mnovement.
> If the dread has been shot and damaged, that means that the same
> wraithlord would have been shot and wounded at least once. H2H versus
> any of the above is suicidal, unless you have multiple powerfist armed
> guys or you are the blood angels.
By and large true, of course. But at least the dread has an arse.
Old Bear
<gaug...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ln2j9$p18$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <pBDf5.47259$FQ.51...@news0.telusplanet.net>,
> "GrimWulf" <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> >
> > I don't understand how people
> > > see these things as any different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
> > >
> >
> > Maybe because a dread can die in one shot, a carnifex can be wounded
> by
> > small arms fire, and has only a 5+ save?
> >
> > There is no damage chart for the wraithlord so you cant even make him
> more
> > effective while he closes with you, maybe stun him so he cant even
> move,
> > these are problems with dreads.
> >
> dreads
> > and carnifex's, against a wraithlord their dead.
>
> WraithLord. In addition, something like a Big Shoota or a Heavy Bolter
> can wound a WraithLord while it can't do anything against a Dreadnought.
Oh yes. I recall the last time I fought Eldar. My Flash Gitz with 4 Big
Shootas only needed 5's to hit, then 6's to wound, then get past the WL's
armour save. Piece of piss. Care to guess how many wounds I inflicted?
Old Bear
> In addition, something like a Big Shoota or a Heavy Bolter
> >can wound a WraithLord while it can't do anything against a Dreadnought.
> >
>
> plus save after a successful hit roll.
>
> I don't think Wraithlords really sweat those.
>
> Of course, if you get a HB behind a dread, then it is much more
> dangerous.
And that is the crucial difference. As a dread advances, it needs to watch
its backside. The Wraithlord can mooch along playing with his dick...
Old Bear
"Jason Larke" <jla...@uu.net> wrote in message
news:vatr98g...@anthem.aa.ans.net...
> >>>>> On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:11:26 GMT, gaug...@my-deja.com
> >>>>> said:
>
> g> Anything that can pierce AV 12 (dread) has a very good chance
> g> to wound a WraithLord. In addition, something like a Big
> g> Shoota or a Heavy Bolter can wound a WraithLord while it can't
> g> do anything against a Dreadnought.
>
> Sure, but you have to wound the WL three times to kill
> it. Piercing a dreadnought once usually makes it back off, if it
> doesn't die directly.
>
> As for shoota and heavy bolters- yeah, they can wound on a 6, IF
> the WL doesn't make it's 3+ save. One wound in 18 shots. *Real*
> good odds, those.
>
> My basic problem boils down to the combo of high toughness (no
> auto-kills, few wounds), good armor save (hard to overwhelm with
> small arms fire), and three wounds. To kill it in any reasonable
> time frame requires 100 or more points of troops to stand still
> for a couple turns and blaze away at it. Meanwhile, it's off
> killing your troops.
As are its pals...
Old Bear
> "GrimWulf" <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> > > I don't understand how people see these things as any different
> > > than a marine dread or a carnifex?
> >
> > Maybe because a dread can die in one shot,
>
> Glancing and Penetrating hits without ever taking permanent damage or
> being destroyed if everything results in Stunned and Shaken.
Have you *ever* experienced of that though, John? Damned if I have. My
experience is that once a dread takes any for of hit, it's usually (not
always, but I don't do this maths shit) fucked. Either stunned, immobilised,
weapon gone, etc. My experience is that from then on the dread rarely gets
back into the game.
Any 3
> results which would Glance or Penetrate a Dread kill a Wraithlord.
>
> From the analysis, which, BTW, has been done to death (check Deja), the
> Dread is slightly easier to kill, but has superior long-range
> firepower. If the player can't take advantage of his strengths and
> minimize his weaknesses, he's going to lose Wraithlord, Dread, or
> otherwise.
The biggest weakness a player can have is to rely on maths to win games. the
number of players I have beaten who were talking beforehand about why they
picked certain troop-types is quite staggering.
>
> > a carnifex can be wounded by small arms fire,
>
> On 6's..., but to be honest, any 'nig player letting his 'fexes take a
> lot of small arms fire deserves to lose. That's why they're screenable
> infantry models.
But what with. they are so big that most of the little 'nids don't come up
to half their height.
>
> > and has only a 5+ save?
>
> With his invulernable save, Carnifexes can survive much more heavy fire
> than a Wraithlord.
I have always found the 5+ save to be highly over-rated. The 1-4 fail apears
way more often...;>)
<snip>
>
> The obvious answer is to shoot him dead at range. Quickly.
>
> And it's not that hard.
Don't yours fire back, then?
Old Bear
> Still, those wraithlords are a bit much--you pretty mucvh have to
> design your force to deal with them.
Which is particularly tricky if this league has fixed armies, or you don't
know who you will be fighting until you get there. That's when it can really
hurt.
Old Bear
"Smith" <Smit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8ln45l$qfv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> > I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the players
> are
> > brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500)
> to let
> > everyone have some time to build up their armies.
> >
> > My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
> > players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines,
> Chaos
> > Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say
> that
> > using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
> >
> Wraithlords
> > are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of
> this
> >
>
> squads with a lascannon and a plasma gun, 500 points, hell, they
> could get 2 of these squads and a dreadnought for 115 points that
> has a plasma cannon. That's 307 points, with the rest they could
> get creative, one just get another 5 man squad or a really brutal
> command squad. Sounds like your players need to buy more
> heavey weapon figs..
Oh, were that gaming was so simple...
Old Bear
> Even if they did, this would be a pretty decent 500 point army
> against every body, especially if the command squad was given
> 2 heavy bolters. I mean how many orks or tyranids can you squeeze
> into one 500 point army. And if you are fighting IG, all you
> have to do is kill the damn tanks and get stuck in hand to hand
> for the rest of the game. if nothing else, the IG are pretty
> weak in HtH unless you are playing an army tooled for it.
I can get in my looted Basilisk, which means your five man squads are
fucked.
Old Bear
> The simple fact is that you can't. 1 Wraithlord is being a bit harsh,
especially
> against tyrannids and Orks, in a 500 point army. If there are any more
then it is
> downright wrong.
That's the problem, though. It *isn't* wrong. It goes by many names none of
which I care to use, but it is legal. I wish it weren't.
Old Bear
"Pat" <worl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000726202342...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> >> I don't think Wraithlords are overly powerful, but I am having
> >> trouble convincing my players of this fact.
> >
> >are terrifying. Otherwise, it's just another army.
>
snot
> outa WL's!
Why aren't you taking them out with the mass of troops you can afford
because the WL's are so cheap (for what they bring, that is).
Old Bear
> why not apply a limitation that already applies to Ghost Warrior Armies:
> would effectively limit the player to one Wraithlord per 500 points of the
> army, and the Wraithlords would be limited by both the maximum number of
> game
Why so? Try looking at it like this. My Craftworld is regularly involved in
numerous low-level skirmishes. I have a limited number of Wraithlords, for
sure, but our council has discovered that they are effectively saving Eldar
lives at this level because of their effectiveness. Even Guardians are in
short supply these days. so what would your council do?
in that if you have access to the spirit stones of great Eldar heroes,
> you probably also have access to some lesser Eldar warriors' stones too.
> Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing this as a general restriction on all
> Wraithlords.
>
> Also, try doing scenarios with force org. charts that limit your allowable
> number of heavy support choices, or force them to come in as reserves.
Some scenarios allready do that. The simplest way of making things as
unpredictable as possible is to use the Advanced Scenario generator when
after you have set up the terrain. It's 'legal', and easy to do.
> This would help even the field. Also, you might try Jungle terrain, which
> really limits the effectiveness of those long-range WL weapons. Snipers
> are also effective as well (or any other SX weapons). Plus, their cost is
> much lower than the Wraithlord, so even if they get whacked, the victory
> point loss isn't as bad. Plasma weapons and meltas are also useful.
With only S7 for plasma, i don't think so. Even the melta is only at equal
toughness.
A
> couple imperial guard units can be quite effective, especially for their
> relative cost.
So can the rest of the Eldar army. You have to try and deal with them too,
you know.
Xpuctaqp
>Tell me, how often are you turning your Dreads
>around so that the enemy is getting shots at the
>*Rear* armour?
Well, considering I play dark eldar, it doesn't come
up much. I can, on the other hand, always deep strike
my scourges. With splinter cannons, getting behind
a vehicle I stand a reasonable chance of harming it.
This is not a possibility versus the wraithlord....
Other armies have the ability to basically guarantee
rear armor shots/attack. Any imperial army can do it
(with the callidus assasin). Space wolves can do it
with their scouts. Eldar can do it (barely) with a swooping
hawk exarch with the hawks talon.
So, unless you have your dread backed up against the edge
of the table, figure most opponents can shoot you in the back.
>Then consider the S5 AP3 Reaper Launcher
It's not exactly a common weapon. Most weapons out there
are either S 3-5 AP 5+ or S 8-9 AP 2. And pointing out
how eldar units match up with OTHER eldar units....
>Shall we talk about Stream of Corruption and
>Sniper Rifles now???
Wouldn't know about sniper rifles, my army doesn't get them.
Most armies do though. Yes, a squad of 10 sniper rifles
will inflict on average 1.39 wounds per turn. Thus, in
3 rounds, on average, you will have killed the wraithlord.
This is, of course, assuming that it is just standing there
taking the damage. If he shoots back and reduces your
squad, well.....
Stream of Corruption.....well, if you're within flamer template
range, sure. But if you're that close, you're close enough
to charge an archon in. Plus, if you can flame him, well
the wraithlord can TWIN flame you.
>All of this stuff has been covered before,
>and it's simply not worth the effort to regurgitate.
> See the previous thread on Deja.
Quite possibly so, however with new codexes coming out
it changes the argument. Before space wolves and
assasins, getting a rear armor shot was difficult. Now it's
painstakingly easy.....
manateeX
---------------
manateeX
Xpuctaqp
>I'd take that bet, any day of the week. I just need a
> SDEAFH core
Okay, second time I've seen that. What does that stand
for exactly?
>With 10 Dark Lances in the army, I only need 3 turns
>to finish them
500 points? You could get 8. A 10 man squad with
2 dark lances costs 100 points. Given that you need
an HQ unit, that means you can get 4 such squads,
and thus 8 dark lances. If the eldar player knows you're
coming, his best bet is to take the eldar missle launcher
and use plasma rounds. He has a better range, so, with
good positioning, the first few turns he can shoot at you
and you can't shoot back. (48" for the missle launcher,
36" for the dark lance). Then, with the plasma rounds
he gets a strength 4 blast weapon.
With space marines a 5 man squad with a las cannon
costs 90 points. You can get 5 such squads. Since it takes
6 shots (with a las cannon) to kill a wraithlord, you will need
18 shots. This will take 3-4 rounds.
Actually 3 wraithlords isn't the most annoying thing to
do. Even cheesier, is to take 2 wraithlords, and 1 war
walker, and use the wraithlords to SCREEN the warwalker.
Yes, that's another advantage the wraithlord has over the
dread. Friendly troops can shoot through it.....Give the
war walker 2 star cannons, put the farseer nearby, give
him the "guide" power, and watch everything die die die.
manateeX
---------------
manateeX
Tim Oliver
>> Orks: these too may be up shit creek, but I've not played them enough
>> to know for sure. Could just jump with 30 strong mob, and let them
>> kill orks in hand to hanad the whole game.
You can't afford to jump in with 30 orks in 500pts - that's well over
half your points to deal with one 80pt model.
Shooty might work -
5 flash gits, 4RL 65pts
2x5 ardboys 3RL 150pts
warboss +RL 68pt
2x10 shootas 3RL 190pt
and 27pts of wargear/extra orks.
That's 17 rokkit launchers, 5 2/3 hits a turn, 2 5/6 wounds a turn.
That's pretty much 4 turns to have them all dead - but you've got to
be firing at 24", and if a WL gets in flamer range you're losing a lot
of your army. Luckily, you don't have to stand still. I think this
army would actually do the job.
Actually, this is potentially quite an amusing ork army - at 1500pts
you can fit the above elites, 6x10 shootas with 3RL's, 3 dreads with
two twin RL's, 9 twin RL buggies, and a mek with a RL as well as some
wargear. That's 30 RL's and 15 twin-linked RL's, all firing every turn
- about 18 hits a turn, 15 dead marines. It's not particularly
fragile, either, with 89 figures.
--
Tim Oliver
tol...@ihug.co.nz
La Grief
Xpuctaqp <xpuc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000727041744...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
| j_hwang writes:
|
| >Conversely, a dread can (theoretically) absorb an infinite
| >number of Glancing and Penetrating hits without ever taking
| >permanent damage or being destroyed if everything
| >would Glance or Penetrate a Dread kill a Wraithlord.
|
| always the case....
Um, no, that has nothing to do with it. for every time a dread gets penetrated the
wraithlord should also lose a wound. That has nothing to do with the armour
(really). even on the back armour
| Versus the REAR armour of a dreadnough a strength 4
| weapon, like a bolter, splinter cannon, will glance on a
| 6+. Versus a wraithlord, these weapons go *ting* *ting*.
yes, he said this too I believe.
| A heavy bolter, versus the rear armor affects on a 5+.
| Versus the wraithlord, it wounds on a 6+. And the wraith
| lord gets a save.
what are you firing an anti infantry weapon at a WL for?
| So, no, any 3 results which would glance or penetrate a
| dread do NOT kill a wraithlord.
Yes they would, for what we were talking about. We were using krak missiles as the
example...
| Further, a stunned or immobilized dreadnought is vulnerable
| to krak and haywire grenades. Can krak or haywire grenades
| hurt a wraithlord? No. Can a dreadnought get a cover save?
| No. A wraithlord in cover now has an invulnerable save.
| Hell BIKES can't get cover saves, but nooooooo Gavin's
| precious Wrathlord can have a cover save.....
Um, STFU? the point John was making that I said a dread could be destroyed in one
shot. He countered it (devils advocate) with that the dread could also get crew
shaken result all the time, which ISN'T destroying it at all.
--
-Lee
"If an AOLer hates it, it's probably quite good!"
- John Hwang (c) 2000
La Grief
| John Hwang writes:
|
| >Tell me, how often are you turning your Dreads
| >around so that the enemy is getting shots at the
| >*Rear* armour?
|
| Well, considering I play dark eldar, it doesn't come
| up much. I can, on the other hand, always deep strike
| my scourges. With splinter cannons, getting behind
| a vehicle I stand a reasonable chance of harming it.
| This is not a possibility versus the wraithlord....
|
| Other armies have the ability to basically guarantee
| rear armor shots/attack. Any imperial army can do it
| (with the callidus assasin). Space wolves can do it
| with their scouts. Eldar can do it (barely) with a swooping
| hawk exarch with the hawks talon.
|
| So, unless you have your dread backed up against the edge
| of the table, figure most opponents can shoot you in the back.
this is never the case, or at least hardly ever. You will often see a vehicle
flanked but almost never exposing its rear (unless it has come deep into enemy
lines) and on a counter note, the dread should be in combat if that close...
| >Then consider the S5 AP3 Reaper Launcher
|
| It's not exactly a common weapon. Most weapons out there
| are either S 3-5 AP 5+ or S 8-9 AP 2. And pointing out
| how eldar units match up with OTHER eldar units....
And?
| Quite possibly so, however with new codexes coming out
| it changes the argument. Before space wolves and
| assasins, getting a rear armor shot was difficult. Now it's
| painstakingly easy.....
I'll rephrase it. We had this argument for a long period of time when both eldar
and craftworld eldar codices came out.
Jacob Englander
> > > Tell the ork player to try tying him up with a large mob that
> > > he'll never be able to kill. And I suppose the tyranid player
> > > could try the same thing, but they'll really just have to wait
> > > for a codex... ;)
>
> Why? Termagants are cheap and Fearless in Assault if within Synapse
> range. They are unquestionably the best units available to tie up
> Wraithlords in HtH.
No....hormagaunts are the best thing. They're two points cheaper won't
waste any shooting when used to hold up a wraithlord. Same principle
though.
La Grief
Old Bear <i...@ibarstow.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8lp0ac$its$2...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
|
| > The simple fact is that you can't. 1 Wraithlord is being a bit harsh,
| especially
| > against tyrannids and Orks, in a 500 point army. If there are any more
| then it is
| > downright wrong.
|
| That's the problem, though. It *isn't* wrong. It goes by many names none of
| which I care to use, but it is legal. I wish it weren't.
Which is why I intend to spring the "1 wraithlord per 500 points" rule on eldar
players. Only can you get 3 WL's when playing 1500 point battles...
Doug
> Also, try doing scenarios with force org. charts that limit your allowable
> number of heavy support choices, or force them to come in as reserves.
> This would help even the field. Also, you might try Jungle terrain, which
> really limits the effectiveness of those long-range WL weapons. Snipers
> are also effective as well (or any other SX weapons). Plus, their cost is
> much lower than the Wraithlord, so even if they get whacked, the victory
> point loss isn't as bad. Plasma weapons and meltas are also useful. A
> couple imperial guard units can be quite effective, especially for their
> relative cost.
I'll agree with most of the other ways of taking out a wraithlord. I'm
probably know to have the opinion that they are easily beatable. HOWEVER, do
NOT suggest jungle terrain as a way of stopping wraithlords! Then none of the
long range firepower (lascannons, missle launchers, sniper rifles) can get a
shot at it. Plus they get invulnerable saves. Even I felt guilty brining a
wraithlord in a jungle mission I fought because it is so tough to kill in close
combat and that's all it will see. (but it was in a league with money on the
line so I didn't feel too bad... ;)
-Doug (the other one)
La Grief
| Neal Fal...@writeme.com writes:
|
| >So a measley *nine* shots with a Missile Launcher and you
| >kill one Wraithlord (On the average). Try getting off
| >twenty-seven shots to kill three Wraithlords in a 500
| >point game - I am willing to bet it can't be done.
|
| *sarcasm mode on*
|
| Ah, but didn't you hear what man boy god Gavin Thorpe
| said????? You should just IGNORE wraithlords.....
|
| *sarcasm mode off*
He's right you know. In bigger games you can do just that. tie them up with an
unbeatable unit and you're free....
| Seriously though, at first, I didn't think that with 500 points
| you could field 3 wraithlords. But then, I checked it out
| and sure enough....no problem. A 40 point farseer, 2
| five man 40 point guardian squads. Still leaves you with
| 380 points for wraithlords. Put starcannons on 2 of them
| and a bright lance on the third.
|
| At 500 points, this army is now more or less invincible...
um, no. Not invincible. If the objective of the mission was to claim table quaters
I'd be very much happy to take some large squads and just tie the three fuckers up
for the whole game while my warboss dispatches of those two guardian units...
mattna...@my-deja.com
> Shooty might work -
>
> 5 flash gits, 4RL 65pts
> 2x5 ardboys 3RL 150pts
> warboss +RL 68pt
> 2x10 shootas 3RL 190pt
> and 27pts of wargear/extra orks.
>
> That's 17 rokkit launchers, 5 2/3 hits a turn, 2 5/6 wounds a turn.
> That's pretty much 4 turns to have them all dead - but you've got to
> be firing at 24", and if a WL gets in flamer range you're losing a lot
> of your army. Luckily, you don't have to stand still. I think this
> army would actually do the job.
But you're using your whole army to kill half of his. Now that I think
about it, I like Tyranids.
2 Hive Tyrants, both with barbed stranglers. 1 Spore mine (troop) 1
Ripper swarm (Troop), and 3 carnifexes.
> Actually, this is potentially quite an amusing ork army - at 1500pts
> you can fit the above elites, 6x10 shootas with 3RL's, 3 dreads with
> two twin RL's, 9 twin RL buggies, and a mek with a RL as well as some
> wargear. That's 30 RL's and 15 twin-linked RL's, all firing every turn
> - about 18 hits a turn, 15 dead marines. It's not particularly
> fragile, either, with 89 figures.
Wow! thanks a lot Tim, now I have a dircetion for my ork army I've been
kicking around in my head. Let's see, I think I only need to buy about
60 models :(
> Tim Oliver
> tol...@ihug.co.nz
-Maka
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
incrdbil
>
>
>I would say that A Wraithlord would be fine and dandy, but if he's using
>more than one then it is unfair on 500pts, especially if the players can't
>change their lists to deal with it. The selections are balanced for 500pt
>armies (where there are many ways to deal with 3 WLs), with only 500pts you
>can take a minimal leader and 2 minimal troops squads, then throw the rest
>of your points into one of the other categories and have something a basic
>500pt army just can't handle.
>
This is where the Eldar players chime in, saying how balanced a
Wraithlord is, and displaying a list saying "hey, given 6 turns and
great LOs this army or others coud shoot down 3 WL's". somehow, they
assume the Wraithlords are alweays in LOS, never fire back.
Of course, havingeveryone forced to switch to anti-wraithlord armies
pretty much ruins a lot of the fun for the small league as well...if
it's they type where you can't switch out forces between games.
If it is the type of league thats non-campaign, new force every time,
then the 3 WL player will have more challeneges. He'll still come out
on top most of the time..but occasionalyl he'll lose.
>>Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think
>Wraithlords
>>are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of this
>>fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
>>
>I'd say limit the guy to 1 WL, by cutting down the force org chart
>dramatically (Something like 3-4 troops and one of each other choice). You
>don't want to just cut him down to 1 WL as a special case (since you'll end
>up with other screwey 500pt armies), but a 'one of each' org chart would
>still allow variety but prevent overloading one unit type.
>--
>Kevin Allegood ribotr...@mindspring.pants.com
>Remove the pants from my email address to reply
>"I think Dungeons & Dragons really went downhill once they changed
>the half-elves from 'Chaotic Neutral' to 'Gay Republican.'" - Kibo
>
>
gaug...@my-deja.com
"Old Bear" <i...@ibarstow.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <gaug...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ln2j9$p18$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Anything that can pierce AV 12 (dread) has a very good chance
> > to wound a WraithLord. In addition, something like a Big Shoota
> > or a Heavy Bolter can wound a WraithLord while it can't do
> > anything against a Dreadnought.
>
> Oh yes. I recall the last time I fought Eldar. My Flash Gitz with
> 4 Big Shootas only needed 5's to hit, then 6's to wound, then get
> past the WL's armour save. Piece of piss. Care to guess how many
> wounds I inflicted?
Orks have a BS of 2, we're not going to blame the WraithLord for that as
well, are we?
I'm just pointing out that at least you can hit it with Big Shootas or
Heavy Bolters (though very poorly), which is something you can't do
against a Dreadnought.
Gauge1000
incrdbil
>
>Lies, damned lies...and statistics. I think a lot of the 'better' players
>who like a challenge have been put off by the balance in the Eldar list. A
>good pal of mine has gone Eldar and continually enthuses about the tactics
>he is going to be able to use because of all the quality upgrades that they
>have, and the vast range of options. Thank god he isn't actually quite as
>good a player as he thinks he is.
>
>--
>Ian
yep--you nailed it. whats a tactically imept power gamer type likely
to do? Learn and adapt, or switch to what seems to be the most
powerlist they can find?
Then, they can do well versus they rest of their target market
munchkin friends (who are likely playing Blood angels) and think they
are a "great" player, till they meet someone who actually thinks..then
they lose.
They also walk into a tourney with the "uber" list, then get messed up
because they didnt plan on non-space marine armies, or mechanized
Space Marine Armies that don't care about starcannons all that much.
Goobers like that make the Eldar appear to have a low winning
percentage. just like nebie players keep Codex :SM results low as
well. Veteran players then skew statistics even more, making the
Sisters of Battle and Dark angels results look very good, despite the
mediocrity of their list.
incrdbil
>>
>> For 96 points, marines and Chaos marines can buy 5 man tactical
>> squads with a lascannon and a plasma gun, 500 points, hell, they
>> could get 2 of these squads and a dreadnought for 115 points that
>> has a plasma cannon.
Yay. Plasma guns need a 5+ to wound, if they hit within a 24 inch
range.The dread with plasma cannon is a waste vs WL, as it's still a
5+ to wound--better bring the Lascannon/Missile launcher one, or dont
bring it at all.
Predator with all lascannosn would be whats needed.
That's 307 points, with the rest they could
>> get creative, one just get another 5 man squad or a really brutal
>> command squad. Sounds like your players need to buy more
>> heavey weapon figs..
>
>Oh, were that gaming was so simple...
>
>--
>Ian
exactly
incrdbil
>John Hwang writes:
>
don't get too worked up in an argument.
It's relatively impossible to get an Eldar player to admit that the
Wraithlord may be *GASP* not a perfectly balanced wonderful thing that
no one should ever be unhappy about seeing in multiple numbers in 500
point games.
Wraithlords are superior in durability than dreads, thats a given.
Dreads can have a slight edge in firepower (often by sacrificing hth
capability).
theres no reason we should expect Wraithlords to be perfectly equal in
comparison --in terms of performance. Points cost is another
matter...
Erik Setzer
swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
but instead said:
>I'm staring a new Warhammer 40K league, and since most of the players are
>brand new, we are starting at a conservative number of points (500) to let
>everyone have some time to build up their armies.
>
>My problem is that everyone seems to be getting decimated by the Eldar
>players Wraithlords. He has slaughtered armies of Space Marines, Chaos
>Marines, Ork's, and Tyrannids using the Wraithlords. The players say that
>using a Wraithlord in a 500 point army is unfair.
>
>Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think Wraithlords
>are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of this
>fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
Convince the players of the usefulness of special and heavy weapons.
Put enough out there, and the dead Wraithlords start piling up.
Also, they should try responding with their *own* Dreadnoughts.
And splinter rifles, agonizers, or anything else that rolls a flat
number to wound regardless of Toughness are also good.
-Erik
------------------------------------------------------------
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Xpuctaqp
>what are you firing an anti infantry weapon at a WL for?
Because his holiness, man god Gavin Thorpe has pointed
out that a strength 5 weapon can hurt a wraithlord, and so
clearly that makes it a balanced unit....
>Yes they would, for what we were talking about. We were
>using krak missiles as the example.
Even still, it's not what he said....he said:
" Any 3 results which would Glance or Penetrate a
Dread kill a Wraithlord."
I don't see the word "missle launcher" or "lascannon" anywhere.
So no, this isn't the case. Someone with strength 4 with
a lot of tactics and planning (or a callidus assasin, or
the space wolves scouts, or dark eldar scourges with
splinter cannons....) can maneuver around to get a rear
shot vs. the dread. Against the wraithlord, they bounce right
off.
And there are a LOT of strength 4 things out there. Any space
marine. A bolter. Splinter cannons. Shuriken catapults.
And so on....
Heck, everything in my entire army (except 1 special character)
can be killled by strength 4 weapons.
manateeX
---------------
manateeX
Xpuctaqp
>this is never the case, or at least hardly ever. You will often
>see a vehicle flanked but almost never exposing its rear
> (unless it has come deep into enemy lines) and on a
>counter note, the dread should be in combat if that close...
I don't know how things are playing where you are, but
just about every battle I'm in with imperials, they take a
Callidus assasin. And since she can show up wherever she
likes on the battle field, she can ALWAYS get a rear armor
attack vs. a dread, should she so desire...
Space wolf scouts deploy on your board edge, so when they
come out, figure they are facing the rear armor of most things.
So long as something HAS a rear armor, then someone else
with troops selection, tactics, and strategy, can get a shot at it.
manateeX
---------------
manateeX
John Hwang
Except for the fact that nobody has them in any quantity. Them being
metal instead of plastic.
I wonder, are these the absolute *worst* deal in the entire GW line, on
a points per dollar basis??? They've got to be pretty close...
--
--- John Hwang "J_H...@my-deja.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
Doug
> <snip argument about missle launchers...>
> So no, this isn't the case. Someone with strength 4 with
> a lot of tactics and planning (or a callidus assasin, or
> the space wolves scouts, or dark eldar scourges with
> splinter cannons....) can maneuver around to get a rear
> shot vs. the dread. Against the wraithlord, they bounce right
> off.
> And there are a LOT of strength 4 things out there. Any space
> marine. A bolter. Splinter cannons. Shuriken catapults.
> And so on....
Yes, there are. But I don't count on them to take out everything. If
you're planning on using your bolters to take out Leman Russ tanks, I
think you're tieing you own hands. MOST people use heavy weapons to
take out the tough things on a list. Note that the Eldar have many
fewer tough targets in their army to use those heavy weapons on. Wave
serpents (expensive and un modeled) and up to three heavy support
choices (armor 12 tanks or the wraithlord). You don't have to play
against a mechanized force more than once to realize that you should
bring a few heavy weapons to a game and not rely on small arms. If
you're bringing enough weapons to deal with a mechanized force, you'll
have plenty to deal with a wraithlord.
(Getting back on topic...) Yes, that's harder to do in a 500 point
environment, but still not impossible.
> Heck, everything in my entire army (except 1 special character)
> can be killled by strength 4 weapons.
Most of the armies have something that is immune to strength 4.
Eldar - wraithlord
Dark Eldar - grotesques
Marines - Land Raider
Chaos - Land Raider & thousand sons
Orks - Land Raider (and I can't remember the battle wagon's stats)
The ones that can't include the Guard, Sisters of Battle, Nids (but who
doesn't think a codex carnifex will be tougher?), and Necrons (anyone
not expect a big guy for them?). Note that 75% of these aren't playing
with a complete codex yet, so could very well end up with something
tough.
And to relate back to one of my earlier posts that I saw questioned:
The reason I wouldn't recommend changing the force organization chart is
that playing by a (supposedly) balanced system should give everyone
equal access. Changing part of it may have unforseen effects. Plus,
more importantly, remeber this is a league - not a tournament. People
were going to buy small armies and then increase them over time. Let the
eldar player enjoy the toys he bought now, because as the points values
increase, those wraithlords are going to become less and less
important. Also, the other players can get a greater sense of
satisfaction as they start beating the things they used to fear. Maybe
that's more philosophical than statistical, but I put a lot of stock in
that psychological part of the game too.
-Doug (the other one)
John Hwang
> >around so that the enemy is getting shots at the
> >*Rear* armour?
>
> Well, considering I play dark eldar, it doesn't come
> up much. I can, on the other hand, always deep strike
> my scourges. With splinter cannons, getting behind
> a vehicle I stand a reasonable chance of harming it.
> This is not a possibility versus the wraithlord....
S4 against AV10, yeah, you can glance.
But if your Scourges are still waiting, the SM player should still be
playing to prevent you from doing this easily (or at least without
serious repercussions). I never fear Deep Strikers, as it's pretty
easy to control and deny "good" landing points.
I guess the question is: is getting 1.8 Glancing hits on a the rear
armour of a Dread worth an entire squad of Scourges???
> Other armies have the ability to basically guarantee
> rear armor shots/attack. Any imperial army can do it
> (with the callidus assasin). Space wolves can do it
> with their scouts. Eldar can do it (barely) with a swooping
> hawk exarch with the hawks talon.
Again, most of these are pretty weak attacks at S4. Tho the Callidus
is a special case; by and large, she will earn more points
assassinating the enemy commander or other HQs than trying to take down
a Dread. Wolf Scouts are invariably HtH, as any Heavy weapon which the
Dread might fear cannot be fired because the Scouts moved.
So while these things are possible, I wouldn't consider them serious
threats.
> So, unless you have your dread backed up against the edge
> of the table, figure most opponents can shoot you in the back.
I would just keep my Dreads supported by nearby tac squads, denying the
enemy the chance. And from the list above, none of these shots are
especially worrisome.
> >Then consider the S5 AP3 Reaper Launcher
>
> It's not exactly a common weapon. Most weapons out there
> are either S 3-5 AP 5+ or S 8-9 AP 2. And pointing out
> how eldar units match up with OTHER eldar units....
Hey, you're using a Callidus against the Dread...
> >Shall we talk about Stream of Corruption and
> >Sniper Rifles now???
>
> Wouldn't know about sniper rifles, my army doesn't get them.
> Most armies do though. Yes, a squad of 10 sniper rifles
> will inflict on average 1.39 wounds per turn. Thus, in
> 3 rounds, on average, you will have killed the wraithlord.
> This is, of course, assuming that it is just standing there
> taking the damage. If he shoots back and reduces your
> squad, well.....
Alaitoc Pathfinders. Two squads of 5 stand a good chance of killing
one Wraithlord each turn.
> Stream of Corruption.....well, if you're within flamer template
> range, sure. But if you're that close, you're close enough
> to charge an archon in. Plus, if you can flame him, well
> the wraithlord can TWIN flame you.
But regular Flamers are only S4 AP5. SoC will be from a model with a
2+ or 3+ save. In my experience, this is not a big deal. It'd be
better for the WL to use his Heavy weapon and the catapults instead.
> >All of this stuff has been covered before,
> >and it's simply not worth the effort to regurgitate.
> > See the previous thread on Deja.
>
> Quite possibly so, however with new codexes coming out
> it changes the argument. Before space wolves and
> assasins, getting a rear armor shot was difficult. Now it's
> painstakingly easy.....
I dunno. Possible, but not especially effective. Certainly, while it
is possible to do as you've mentioned, from a strategic standpoint, I'd
never plan on using those models like that.
John Hwang
> >John Hwang writes:
>
> don't get too worked up in an argument.
I'm OK, thanks.
> It's relatively impossible to get an Eldar player to admit that the
> Wraithlord may be *GASP* not a perfectly balanced wonderful thing
It's close enough, within 5 or 10 points.
> that no one should ever be unhappy about seeing in multiple numbers
> in 500 point games.
No different than Assassins in same.
> Wraithlords are superior in durability than dreads, thats a given.
> Dreads can have a slight edge in firepower (often by sacrificing hth
> capability).
Agree. I believe I've made this note a number of times.
Dreads have a definite, significant advantage in firepower, especially
if they don't bother with HtH capability.
> theres no reason we should expect Wraithlords to be perfectly equal in
> comparison --in terms of performance. Points cost is another
> matter...
Overall, they're roughly equally balanced with a Dread. However, the
comparison is kinda funny -- usually, one would expect the Eldar unit
to be less durable, but more powerful. Go figure.
John Hwang
> "John Hwang" <j_h...@my-deja.com> wrote ...
> > "GrimWulf" <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> > > > I don't understand how people see these things as any
> > > > different than a marine dread or a carnifex?
> > >
> > > Maybe because a dread can die in one shot,
> >
> > Conversely, a dread can (theoretically) absorb an infinite number
> > of Glancing and Penetrating hits without ever taking permanent
> > damage or being destroyed if everything results in Stunned and
> > Shaken.
>
> My experience is that once a dread takes any for of hit, it's usually
> (not always, but I don't do this maths shit) fucked. Either stunned,
> immobilised, weapon gone, etc. My experience is that from then on
> the dread rarely gets back into the game.
Not being mathematically inclined, I'll note that "infinite" is a
pretty difficult thing to experience. However, I've see close enough.
I've seen a Dread take turn after turn of all the Heavy weapons fire I
could throw at it and not blow up. From a straight math standpoint,
the Dread should have been destroyed about 3 times over... Very, very
frustrating.
That's how the luck goes some times.
> > Any 3 results which would Glance or Penetrate a Dread kill a
> > Wraithlord.
> >
> > From the analysis, which, BTW, has been done to death (check Deja),
> > the Dread is slightly easier to kill, but has superior long-range
> > firepower. If the player can't take advantage of his strengths
> > and minimize his weaknesses, he's going to lose Wraithlord, Dread,
> > or otherwise.
>
> The biggest weakness a player can have is to rely on maths to win
> games. the number of players I have beaten who were talking
> beforehand about why they picked certain troop-types is quite
> staggering.
Agree. It ain't over 'til it's over.
Mathematical analysis isn't the be-all, end-all of the game. But a
smart player takes advantage of knowing what the likely outcomes will
be and uses them to augment his tactical and strategic play. A good
player with a solid awareness of the mathematics behind the game has a
definite edge over an otherwise equally good player who is utterly
clueless about the math.
> > > a carnifex can be wounded by small arms fire,
> >
> > On 6's..., but to be honest, any 'nid player letting his 'fexes
> > take a lot of small arms fire deserves to lose. That's why
> > they're screenable infantry models.
>
> But what with. they are so big that most of the little 'nids don't
> come up to half their height.
Genestealers, Hormagunts.
The 'stealers screen the 'fex, so you can't shoot at him (Monstrous
Creature, notwithstanding).
The Termagants screen the 'stealers, so you can't shoot at them (scary,
nasty HtH monsters).
And sometimes, the ripper bases screen the Termagants so you can't even
shoot at them...
> > > and has only a 5+ save?
> >
> > With his invulernable save, Carnifexes can survive much more heavy
> > fire than a Wraithlord.
>
> I have always found the 5+ save to be highly over-rated. The 1-4 fail
> apears way more often...;>)
Just wait until you go 7 rounds in HtH with one. With a Wraithlord or
Dreadnought. Because he makes most of his freakin' saves. <grumble>
> > The obvious answer is to shoot him dead at range. Quickly.
> >
> > And it's not that hard.
>
> Don't yours fire back, then?
They do. But they only kill 1 or 2 models per round of firing. When
you bring a dozen MLs or Lascannon to the table, the WL just doesn't
last that long.
John Hwang
> > SDEAFH core
>
> Okay, second time I've seen that. What does that stand
> for exactly?
Shooty Dark Eldar Army From Hell. Concept is lots of Warrior squads
with 2 Dark Lances, Scourges with 4 Assault Cannon.
> >With 10 Dark Lances in the army, I only need 3 turns
> >to finish them
>
> 500 points? You could get 8. A 10 man squad with
> 2 dark lances costs 100 points. Given that you need
> an HQ unit, that means you can get 4 such squads,
> and thus 8 dark lances.
Checking the Codex:
Dracon 35 w/ Retinue of 5 Warriors 40 w/ Dark Lance 15 for 90 pts
total.
OK, so I was off by one, for a total of 9 Dark Lances. I thought the
Retinue costs were the same as the Troops.
> If the eldar player knows you're coming, his best bet is to take
> the eldar missle launcher and use plasma rounds. He has a better
> range, so, with good positioning, the first few turns he can shoot
> at you and you can't shoot back. (48" for the missle launcher,
> 36" for the dark lance). Then, with the plasma rounds
> he gets a strength 4 blast weapon.
Ah, now we're getting tactical. With good positioning, I'm in cover
and all of my Lances are in range.
A standard board is only 4' across, and typical deployment zones are at
least 12". Even if he's on his edge, I should be able to place models
within 36" of the WLs. And frankly, if he's on his edge, his models
are wasted. WLs need to enter HtH ASAP to earn their points.
Points wise, he can (just) get 3 EMLs, but with 2 hits, average,
killing 3 DE models in 2 squads, he earns 25 pts per round. Not very
effective. The remaining 3 squads can do better than than, killing 5/9
WL per round for 83 pts equivalent, or roughly 3.5:1 ratio.
> With space marines a 5 man squad with a las cannon
> costs 90 points. You can get 5 such squads. Since it takes
> 6 shots (with a las cannon) to kill a wraithlord, you will need
> 18 shots. This will take 3-4 rounds.
For the same 90 pts, the Razorback is better, being twin-linked.
Try 2 squads of 5 Scouts w/ ML (85 ea), 2 Predators w/ Twin Lascannon,
Lascannon Sponsons, Extra Armour (150 ea), Leader (30).
> Actually 3 wraithlords isn't the most annoying thing to
> do. Even cheesier, is to take 2 wraithlords, and 1 war
> walker, and use the wraithlords to SCREEN the warwalker.
Walker is a Vehicle and cannot be screened by Infantry, pre latest rule
clarifications.
> Yes, that's another advantage the wraithlord has over the
> dread. Friendly troops can shoot through it.....Give the
> war walker 2 star cannons, put the farseer nearby, give
> him the "guide" power, and watch everything die die die.
Yeah, this fits in the points. But it's generally not as good, as the
War Walker cannot be screened (as above).
John Hwang
> > Shooty might work -
> >
> > 5 flash gits, 4RL 65pts
> > 2x5 ardboys 3RL 150pts
> > warboss +RL 68pt
> > 2x10 shootas 3RL 190pt
> > and 27pts of wargear/extra orks.
> >
> > That's 17 rokkit launchers, 5 2/3 hits a turn, 2 5/6 wounds a turn.
> > That's pretty much 4 turns to have them all dead - but you've got
> > to be firing at 24", and if a WL gets in flamer range you're losing
> > a lot of your army. Luckily, you don't have to stand still. I think
> > this army would actually do the job.
>
> But you're using your whole army to kill half of his.
About three quarters, actually (360 pts typical).
> Now that I think about it, I like Tyranids.
> 2 Hive Tyrants, both with barbed stranglers. 1 Spore mine (troop) 1
> Ripper swarm (Troop), and 3 carnifexes.
Yup. This is very similar to the previous Tyranid counter-armies. Tho
they usually took 2 Lictors instead of one of the 'fexes. All of them
used the Spore Mine and Ripper Swarm "trick".
> > Actually, this is potentially quite an amusing ork army - at
> > 1500pts you can fit the above elites, 6x10 shootas with 3RL's, 3
> > dreads with two twin RL's, 9 twin RL buggies, and a mek with a RL
> > as well as some wargear. That's 30 RL's and 15 twin-linked RL's,
> > all firing every turn - about 18 hits a turn, 15 dead marines. It's
> > not particularly fragile, either, with 89 figures.
>
> Wow! thanks a lot Tim, now I have a dircetion for my ork army I've
> been kicking around in my head. Let's see, I think I only need to
> buy about 60 models :(
How many models "wasted"??? If the answer is zero, all is well.
Xpuctaqp
>I guess the question is: is getting 1.8 Glancing hits on a the rear
>armour of a Dread worth an entire squad of Scourges???
It's 160 points for the 5 man 4 splinter squad scourges, and figure
115 points for the Dreadnought. Not particularly effective.
Realistically if I know I'm fighting space marines, I don't take
any splinter cannons at all, and no scourges. Still, in a
tournament where I have to keep the same army, I'd have a
squad of scourges just cause they can tear through other
people quite nicely.
>Wolf Scouts are invariably HtH, as any Heavy weapon which the
>Dread might fear cannot be fired because the Scouts moved
Still, they can move 6" when they deploy, and their bolt pistol can
fire another 12". Plus they can get 2 plasma pistols and 1
meltagun in the squad, all of which can be fired. So, if you are
within 18" of your board edge, you are vulnerable.
>> And pointing out how eldar units match up with
>> OTHER eldar units....
>Hey, you're using a Callidus against the Dread...
For me, it's like this. Suppose I come up with the new
"Chris" army. (Cause my name is Chris, and I'm egotistical
or something.) And let's say, the rules of the "Chris" army
is that you can take any unit from any army, pay half points
rounded down, and field it. So, you could have a space
marine for 7 points. I could have orks for 4 points.....
Now......could I justify my army as being "fair" by pointing
out how someone else playing the "Chris" army could easily
put together an army that could stop me? Would knowing that
two "Chris" players would struggle against each other make
the poor sucker now playing orks or space marines feel any
better?
>Alaitoc Pathfinders. Two squads of 5 stand a good chance
>of killing one Wraithlord each turn
See above quote.
If I could run the world, Wraithlords would have an 8 toughness
in the front, and a 7 tougness in the rear.
"you may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..."
(john lennon, imagine)
manateeX
---------------
manateeX
Xpuctaqp
>A standard board is only 4' across, and typical deployment
>zones are at least 12".
Just looked through the misions....Most times your are going
to be in range. But missions like Rescue, Breakout, and
Blitz, you may not be. It just stuck in my mind because
recently I played Rescue, and got torn up by a Biel Tan
army with lots of Dark Reapers. I hadn't realized they had
a 48" range, and got burned by it.
>but with 2 hits, average, killing 3 DE models in 2 squads,
> he earns 25 pts per round. Not very effective.
True, but if you can get my guys to fail a leadership test
(especially if you get us below 50%), you don't need to
kill the whole squad to take them out of commision. Unlike
space marines for example. Heck, even if you get them
to run away for a turn, that's a turn they're not firing heavy
weapons....
>Walker is a Vehicle and cannot be screened by Infantry,
>pre latest rule clarifications.
I've heard rumors that they were going to clarify that in
a white dwarf somewhere, but haven't seen it yet. If you
have somewhere official where that clarification is....By
Gods, I'd love to see it!
manateeX
---------------
manateeX
Riboflavin
>"incrdbil" <incr...@nospam.flinthills.com> wrote in message
>> Well, the original poster was talking about a troublesome
>> situation--multiple Wraithlords in a 500 point game--thats the
>> specific problem we are trying to address.
>
>3 WL's on a 4'x4' table with 500 points per side is not going to be nice.
>That's for sure.
4 lascannons, 5 plasma cannons, and a ML aren't exactly going to be kind to
the WLs, though.
Riboflavin
>I would say that A Wraithlord would be fine and dandy, but if he's using
>more than one then it is unfair on 500pts, especially if the players can't
>change their lists to deal with it. The selections are balanced for 500pt
>armies (where there are many ways to deal with 3 WLs), with only 500pts you
>can take a minimal leader and 2 minimal troops squads, then throw the rest
>of your points into one of the other categories and have something a basic
>500pt army just can't handle.
>
selections are balanced for *1500*pt armies."
Riboflavin
>"John Hwang" <j_h...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:8lnr7e$crj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> "GrimWulf" <grim...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>> > > I don't understand how people see these things as any different
>> > > than a marine dread or a carnifex?
>> >
>> > Maybe because a dread can die in one shot,
>> Conversely, a dread can (theoretically) absorb an infinite number of
>> Glancing and Penetrating hits without ever taking permanent damage or
>> being destroyed if everything results in Stunned and Shaken.
>
>Have you *ever* experienced of that though, John?
I routinely experience that. I take 2 dreds if I'm taking any, and
inevitably one of them goes down the first time someone shoots at it, and
the second one stays around for all or most of the game (and that's through
things like 3 turns of 1-2 havoc squads unloading at it).
>Damned if I have. My
>experience is that once a dread takes any for of hit, it's usually (not
>always, but I don't do this maths shit) fucked. Either stunned,
Stunned means it loses one turn of firing (I always slap armor on my dreds).
Big whup; they still have to shoot it or hit it in HtH, or it's back in the
game shortly afterwards. It also means they usually either lose a turn of
firing or have to hit it in cover, since you can walk it somewhere without
worrying about whether it can fire well. And multiple stunned results in a
round are meaningless.
>immobilised,
Damaging, but the dred still has its firepower and isn't completely helpless
in HtH. An immobilised dred is hardly out of the fight, and still requires
more firepower to actually take it out.
>weapon gone, etc.
With a 2-weapon dred it can still fire, while a 1-weapon dred is still
frightening in HtH (which is the main reason to take a dred over a tank
anyway). Again, it hurts the dred but hardly takes it out of the game.
>My experience is that from then on the dread rarely gets
>back into the game.
How does a crew shaken/stunned result keep the dred from getting back in the
game, when it only lasts for a turn? How does a single immobilized or weapon
destroyed result take the dred out of the game; either way it's still got
one of it's 2 big threats still in action?
While it's possible to kill vehicles in one shot, it's also possible to fire
at them for the whole freakin' game and never roll one of the destroyed
results.
>> From the analysis, which, BTW, has been done to death (check Deja), the
>> Dread is slightly easier to kill, but has superior long-range
>> firepower. If the player can't take advantage of his strengths and
>> minimize his weaknesses, he's going to lose Wraithlord, Dread, or
>> otherwise.
>
>The biggest weakness a player can have is to rely on maths to win games.
the
>number of players I have beaten who were talking beforehand about why they
>picked certain troop-types is quite staggering.
>
The biggest weakness a player can have is to ignore math. The number of
players I have seen who lose to wraithlords is quite staggering.
>>
>> > a carnifex can be wounded by small arms fire,
>>
>> On 6's..., but to be honest, any 'nig player letting his 'fexes take a
>> lot of small arms fire deserves to lose. That's why they're screenable
>> infantry models.
>
>But what with. they are so big that most of the little 'nids don't come up
>to half their height.
>
Go carnifex->bigger 'nid->smaller 'nid, and LOS is blocked.
Riboflavin
>> Any ideas on how they can even the playing field? I don't think
>Wraithlords
>> are overly powerful, but I am having trouble convincing my players of
>this
>> fact. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
>>
>squads with a lascannon and a plasma gun, 500 points, hell, they
>could get 2 of these squads and a dreadnought for 115 points that
>get creative, one just get another 5 man squad or a really brutal
>command squad. Sounds like your players need to buy more
>heavey weapon figs..
>
HQ:
35 Leader w/SB
Troops:
96 5-man tac w/LC, Plas
90 Razorback w/LC, TL Plas
96 5-man Tac w/LC, Plas
90 Razorback w/LC, TL Plas
91 5-man tac w/ML, Plas
(you could drop the SB and make that ML a LC if you really feel like it)
Since this is 500pt games, it ought to be on 4x4 tables (if it's on big
tables they're going to be very empty). That means that it's trivial to have
the WLs in range of the plasma guns, so that's no problem. Unless you're
playing in something pathological like jungle (where this army is toast
against most opponents), you should be able to set your 2 razorbacks and 1
squad up where they've got enough LOS to hit WLs before they can charge.
This army easily kills off a WL a turn, is mostly immune to shuricat fire
(the main FP certainly is), and is highly resistant to starcannon fire.
The WL-fest army has to kill (not immobilize and destroy 2 weapons) each
razorback before it can get at the squad inside, which will take them some
time. Meanwhile, this little army can dish out an average of (in the form of
numberXchance to-hitXchance to-wound):
8/9
4x BS4 LCs:
4(2/3)(2/3)=16/9 wounds
3x BS4 PGs:
3(2/3)(1/3)=6/9 wounds
2x BS4 TL PGs:
2(8/9)(1/3)=16/27 wounds ~ 5/9 wounds
1x BS4 ML:
1(2/3)(1/2)=1/3 wounds = 3/9 wounds
So altogether (with me ditching a fractional wound to make it easier), this
little army can toss out 3 1/3 wraithlord wounds a turn, easily dropping one
a turn. The Wraithlords, meanwhile, can probably drop about one squad or
razorback a turn depending on their exact loadout (remember that they have
to kill the razorbacks, as the squad inside keeps fighting and can't be
targeted on anything less than a kill). The WL-fest will rapidly drop in
firepower, and this army will tend to win a straight shootout, although it
will definitely take some losses. This army also has the advantage of speed
anytime maneuverability comes into play, being able to jet along at 12"
instead of the WL's 6"
What's especially nasty about this army is that it's completely legal under
pretty much any mods made to the army choices, as it's just a HQ and 3
troops. That's why I avoid 500pt games unless they're really odd.