Painting...time is no excuse
TiGgEr
Britfran45 wrote in message <19981006021803...@ng149.aol.com>...
>
>Hey, if you want to play with unpainted armies, fine, they just look like
shit.
>( I've done it in the past and mine looked like shit too ) I'm tired of all
the
>" I don't have time...." whiney crap though. I just finished a 2000pt High
Elf
>army ( and anybody who knows HE's knows how tough they are to paint ) in
two
>and a half weeks. That's Seaguard, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, Reaver
>Knights, a chariot, 2 bolt throwers, 2 mages and a converted
general.......I
>even had time to do a pillar of white fire for coruscation of finreir
spell. I
>have a wife, a job, a 7 month old son etc..etc.... but it is possible. BTW
this
>army also won me best painted army in a tournament last weekend with 25
other
>gamers so it doesn't look like crap ( I couldn't play with crappy painted
>miniatures, but that's just me.) I don't judge others painting as I sucked
>before and understand that it is a learning process. I just think people
should
>make more of an effort to paint. I like to play on a painted table with
decent
>scenery, and nothing looks worse than someone who has an unpainted army and
is
>trying to convince me that a toilet roll is a Daemon Prince, fuck off. Just
>paint your mimiatures, take time if necessary, but don't show up every week
at
>your store or wherever with the same unpainted crap.
> Man, I must be in a bad mood or something.
>
>
>"O God of battles! steel my soldiers' hearts"
> -William Shakespeare's Henry V
Britfran45
John L. Martin
the messenger delivers it.
You have good points, even if the delivery is a bit strong. But I beg
you...
for sake of us NG regulars, please don't start another "paint your minis"
thread. The last one time we all did this was quite enough.
John
E-mail: jlma...@nconnect.net
URL: http://www.nconnect.net/~jlmartin
ICQ: 9738000; AOL IM: jmartin346
"And they had over them a king, an angel of this abyss; his name is
Abaddon."
Rev. 9:11
Britfran45 wrote in message <19981006021803...@ng149.aol.com>...
>
Joe Schulte
: Hey, if you want to play with unpainted armies, fine, they just look like shit.
Wow. Completely at odds with the rest of your post.
: ( I've done it in the past and mine looked like shit too ) I'm tired of all the
: " I don't have time...." whiney crap though. I just finished a 2000pt High Elf
: army ( and anybody who knows HE's knows how tough they are to paint ) in two
: and a half weeks. That's Seaguard, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, Reaver
: Knights, a chariot, 2 bolt throwers, 2 mages and a converted general.......I
: even had time to do a pillar of white fire for coruscation of finreir spell. I
: have a wife, a job, a 7 month old son etc..etc.... but it is possible. BTW this
: army also won me best painted army in a tournament last weekend with 25 other
: gamers so it doesn't look like crap ( I couldn't play with crappy painted
: miniatures, but that's just me.) I don't judge others painting as I sucked
: before and understand that it is a learning process. I just think people should
: make more of an effort to paint. I like to play on a painted table with decent
: scenery, and nothing looks worse than someone who has an unpainted army and is
: trying to convince me that a toilet roll is a Daemon Prince, fuck off. Just
: paint your mimiatures, take time if necessary, but don't show up every week at
: your store or wherever with the same unpainted crap.
: Man, I must be in a bad mood or something.
-Mer "Schizophrenia, anyone?" idian
Big Daddy Rishar
> Umm... sometimes, as I have learned, a good message gets killed by the way
> the messenger delivers it.
Whenever I hear a phrase like this, it makes me think of copious amounts
of plastic explosives and high-powered rifles. Maybe I need more sleep.
> for sake of us NG regulars, please don't start another "paint your minis"
> thread. The last one time we all did this was quite enough.
How true. It was rough on all of us...especially the non-painters, as
they'll be afflicted with leprousy and wind up in Hell when they're
dead.
-- Con, bringing out his Big 'Ole Spoon (TM) to stir some shit up.
(After all, he paints his minis.)
Duo Maxwell
Just
>paint your mimiatures, take time if necessary, but don't show up every week
at
>your store or wherever with the same unpainted crap.
> Man, I must be in a bad mood or something.
>
If you were a bit more.... pleasant, your point would come across better.
Britfran45
>: Hey, if you want to play with unpainted armies, fine, they just look like
>shit.
>
>Wow. Completely at odds with the rest of your post.
>
yeah I know, I just wanted to sucker people in!!
Big Daddy Rishar
>
> This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>
> Paint your troops. No excuses.
This is starting to look AWFULLY familiar...how long will the
non-painter infidels remain silent?
-- Con: preparing for another long, useless, bandwidth hog of a thread,
but enjoying it nonetheless. (The Painting Gestapo WILL find you, and
you WILL be flogged. End of story.)
Clay Smith
Paint your troops. No excuses.
Clay
In article <19981006021803...@ng149.aol.com>
britf...@aol.com (Britfran45) writes:
>
> Hey, if you want to play with unpainted armies, fine, they just look like shit.
> ( I've done it in the past and mine looked like shit too ) I'm tired of all the
> " I don't have time...." whiney crap though. I just finished a 2000pt High Elf
> army ( and anybody who knows HE's knows how tough they are to paint ) in two
> and a half weeks. That's Seaguard, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, Reaver
> Knights, a chariot, 2 bolt throwers, 2 mages and a converted general.......I
> even had time to do a pillar of white fire for coruscation of finreir spell. I
> have a wife, a job, a 7 month old son etc..etc.... but it is possible. BTW this
> army also won me best painted army in a tournament last weekend with 25 other
> gamers so it doesn't look like crap ( I couldn't play with crappy painted
> miniatures, but that's just me.) I don't judge others painting as I sucked
> before and understand that it is a learning process. I just think people should
> make more of an effort to paint. I like to play on a painted table with decent
> scenery, and nothing looks worse than someone who has an unpainted army and is
> trying to convince me that a toilet roll is a Daemon Prince, fuck off. Just
> paint your mimiatures, take time if necessary, but don't show up every week at
> your store or wherever with the same unpainted crap.
> Man, I must be in a bad mood or something.
>
>
Rellentles
>Paint your troops. No excuses.
>
Kiss my ass. If you don't like my unpainted minis you can
1. Pretend they are masterfully painted by Van Goh, abstract that is.
2. Feel free to paint them if you have such a problem with it.
3. Refer to your rule book page 187: No player may make you paint your minis,
nor do you have to have a painted army to play Warhammer.
4. Did I mention kiss my ass?
Soul of Akodo
"When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live so that when you
die, the world cries and you rejoice.
Alien164
In article <6vehv0$he8$1...@news.onramp.net>,
csm...@spammers.can.kiss.my.pasty.white.butt.onramp.net (Clay writes:
>This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>
>Paint your troops. No excuses.
>
>Clay
I was waiting for you to say that.....
Alie...@aol.com
-insert catchy phrase here-
Remove the obvious to reply.
__________________________________________________________
Alien164's Warhammer 40,000 Universe!
Battle reports, stories, links, Necromunda, and The Warhammer 40,000 Webring!
Huron Blackheart
csm...@spammers.can.kiss.my.pasty.white.butt.onramp.net (Clay Smith)
wrote:
you paint em... actually.. paint my friend Chris'... he can't paint
for shit...
Huron Blackheart
"I fmy G/F feels like putting out in the evening.. I ain't painting."
>This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>
>Paint your troops. No excuses.
>
>Clay
>
incrdbil
Smith) wrote:
>This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>
>Paint your troops. No excuses.
>
>Clay
>
unless you don't want to. The Paint Police don't have jurisdiction anywhere yet :)
Britfran45
>Kiss my ass. If you don't like my unpainted minis you can
>1. Pretend they are masterfully painted by Van Goh, abstract that is.
>2. Feel free to paint them if you have such a problem with it.
>3. Refer to your rule book page 187: No player may make you paint your minis,
>nor do you have to have a painted army to play Warhammer.
>4. Did I mention kiss my ass?
>
>
I don't thinks so shit-for-brains, I just wouldn't play you, period.
Eric Harding
Smith) wrote:
>This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>
>Paint your troops. No excuses.
>
>Clay
Fuck you. I have nerve damage in in my arms. My mini's look better unpainted
than if I paint them. But of course, being handicapped is no excuse, right?
Eric
Duo Maxwell
Clay Smith wrote in message <6vehv0$he8$1...@news.onramp.net>...
>This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>
>Paint your troops. No excuses.
>
>Clay
Oh no!!!
He got Clay back!!!
Aggghhh!!!!
PS: Waaay back when you gave out that quickie flocking tip (Paint base top,
dip in flock)
I heeded it.
It is soooo useful!!!
(My minis now look nicer with less painting)
Evil Homer
an international level by blurting out...
> In article <6vehv0$he8$1...@news.onramp.net>, csm...@spammers.can.kiss.my.pasty.white.butt.onramp.net (Clay
> Smith) wrote:
> >
> >Paint your troops. No excuses.
> >
> >Clay
>
>
> than if I paint them. But of course, being handicapped is no excuse, right?
>
> Eric
>
--
Evil Homer, no one is excempt.
Dares to present alternate opinions to yours. Because, face it, you're
wrong.
pope_...@my-dejanews.com
> In article <19981006021803...@ng149.aol.com>
> britf...@aol.com (Britfran45) writes:
>
> >
> > Hey, if you want to play with unpainted armies, fine, they just look like shit.
> > ( I've done it in the past and mine looked like shit too ) I'm tired of all the
> > " I don't have time...." whiney crap though. I just finished a 2000pt High Elf
> > army ( and anybody who knows HE's knows how tough they are to paint ) in
> > two and a half weeks.
> > before and understand that it is a learning process. I just think people should
> > make more of an effort to paint. I like to play on a painted table with decent
> > scenery, and nothing looks worse than someone who has an unpainted > > army and is
> > trying to convince me that a toilet roll is a Daemon Prince, fuck off. Just
> > paint your mimiatures, take time if necessary, but don't show up every week
> > at your store or wherever with the same unpainted crap.
Personally, I'd rather play against an army that is only painted part way
through than one that is finished but looks like crap. The big thing for me
is that I can recognize what kind of troops I am playing against. All of the
assault marines with Jump Packs should _have_ jump packs and so on. I don't
have a hissy fit if something isn't WYSIWYG, but I would like to know that I
am about to charge a squad of things that I can kill and not be surprised to
find out that everyone is WS 5 with a chainsword and power fist that were not
mentioned.
Sure, you should paint your minis, but it does take time and a lot of us take
a few hours to get even one or two grunt troop models painted. I think
everyone should be a little understanding when someone shows up with models
that are primered and have a little color even if they are not done.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
mark havener
Eric Harding wrote in message <361b0...@news.oz.net>...
>In article <6vehv0$he8$1...@news.onramp.net>,
csm...@spammers.can.kiss.my.pasty.white.butt.onramp.net (Clay
> Smith) wrote:
>>This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>>
>>Paint your troops. No excuses.
>>
>>Clay
>
>
>Fuck you. I have nerve damage in in my arms. My mini's look better
>unpainted than if I paint them. But of course, being handicapped is >no
excuse, right?
Well, it's an excuse. A physical handicap that keeps you from painting your
miniatures means that (like everything else) this game is going to be a
little more expensive for you, if you want to play it right. A friend of
mine and fellow gamer has the same problem--nerve damage in his hands that
keeps him from being able to paint. So what does he do about it? He pays
someone to paint them for him. If you shop around, you should be able to
find someone who can do this at a reasonable price. And your minis will
certainly look better than if they were unpainted. In fact, they'll
probably look better than the minis that I spend all my free time painting
myself. Painted miniatures are part of the game. Of course, no one can
force you to paint your miniatures, but if you want to play the game
*correctly*, you have to play with painted figs; it's part of the game. Is
it fair that some players have to pay more than others to play the game?
No, but I haven't met many 'handicapped' individuals who would claim that
life is fair.
-Elfhome
Blank Dave
or finishes (usually the first), when I find something else to do. But at
least most of 'm are primed. "Yeaahhh they're the artic marines, in their
artic camo"
Yeah I know not having 'm painted is no excuse, but I also have several
garage kits howling for paint too. I seem to prefer collecting this shit
than painting it. (Might explain why I ordered another $50 garage kit and
haven't finished building the previous 3)
Blank Dave
"Uranus is gaseous"
The Brain
Joe Schulte
: This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
: Paint your troops. No excuses.
: Clay
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Clay, just fucking die already! You've said goodbye more times than
RaGeXFuckingRuNe!
-Mer "Paint what I damned well please and pay for the rest" idian
incrdbil
>
. If you shop around, you should be able to
>find someone who can do this at a reasonable price.
true
And your minis will
>certainly look better than if they were unpainted.
I agree completely with that.
In fact, they'll
>Painted miniatures are part of the game.
without doubt.
Of course, no one can
>force you to paint your miniatures, but if you want to play the game
>*correctly*, you have to play with painted figs; it's part of the game.
playing the game correctly has nothing to do with painted figs; its just part of the
hobby. Just because an army isn't painted has nothing to do with playing correctly.
Joe Schulte
: In article <361b0...@news.oz.net>, ome...@oz.net embarrassed himself at
: > Smith) wrote:
: > >This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
: > >
: > >Paint your troops. No excuses.
: > >
: > >Clay
: >
: > Fuck you. I have nerve damage in in my arms. My mini's look better unpainted
: > Eric
: >
: Well, at least it's probably entertaining watching you roll dice.
: --
: Evil Homer, no one is excempt.
Hmm.
Homer, can I see your diploma from the 'Howard Stern School on how to Make
Friends and Influence People'?
-Mer "Exempt" idian
Brian Schenck
> In article <6vehv0$he8$1...@news.onramp.net>, csm...@spammers.can.kiss.my.pasty.white.butt.onramp.net (Clay
> Smith) wrote:
> >This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
> >
> >Paint your troops. No excuses.
> >
> >Clay
>
>
> Fuck you. I have nerve damage in in my arms. My mini's look better unpainted
> than if I paint them. But of course, being handicapped is no excuse, right?
>
Clay may be an asshole, but even he's not that bad. Most of the time, he's
referring to the people who buy and buy and buy tons of miniatures at a
time (read disposable bag of income), and never bother to paint them at
all.
Brian D. Schenck
mail to: shr...@wam.umd.edu
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~shrike
"Poit! Zort! Narffff...." - From the collected sayings of Pinky
Join the fight against SPAM! Visit http://www.cauce.org and lend your
support!
Big Daddy Rishar
> Kiss my ass. If you don't like my unpainted minis you can
> 1. Pretend they are masterfully painted by Van Goh, abstract that is.
> 2. Feel free to paint them if you have such a problem with it.
> 3. Refer to your rule book page 187: No player may make you paint your minis,
> nor do you have to have a painted army to play Warhammer.
> 4. Did I mention kiss my ass?
No, you don't need painted minis to play...just as you don't need a
football, or a field, to play football. It just makes the game a bit
more interesting and helps you find additional players.
Well, that and the fact that non-painters go to Hell when they die and
live out eternity in absolute torment, but I don't want to start another
thread on religion. This is enough bandwidth destruction for one day.
-- Con: painting for Jesus, here to save your soul. PAINT, brother!
PAINT! Can you FEEL the FLAMES of HELL? PAINT!
Huron Blackheart
wrote:
>In article <361b0...@news.oz.net>, ome...@oz.net embarrassed himself at
>an international level by blurting out...
>> In article <6vehv0$he8$1...@news.onramp.net>, csm...@spammers.can.kiss.my.pasty.white.butt.onramp.net (Clay
>> Smith) wrote:
>> >This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>> >
>> >Paint your troops. No excuses.
>> >
>> >Clay
>>
>>
{snip}
>>
>Well, at least it's probably entertaining watching you roll dice.
>
>--
>Evil Homer, no one is excempt.
>Dares to present alternate opinions to yours. Because, face it, you're
>wrong.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA..... * falls off his chair and dies *
---end of message----
Clan Nimmo
point. We started playing when my union went on a huge strike and I had tons o'
time. However I had no money (damn mortgage) soooooooooo I painted all my friends
figs : Brets, HE, and some chaos in exchange for them buying my figs. Now when we
play most are painted and my Lizards look great cuz I practiced on the first
armies! If you can't find the time to paint, pay someone to do it for you!
Eric
Britfran45 wrote:
> Hey, if you want to play with unpainted armies, fine, they just look like shit.
> ( I've done it in the past and mine looked like shit too ) I'm tired of all the
> " I don't have time...." whiney crap though. I just finished a 2000pt High Elf
> army ( and anybody who knows HE's knows how tough they are to paint ) in two
> and a half weeks. That's Seaguard, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, Reaver
> Knights, a chariot, 2 bolt throwers, 2 mages and a converted general.......I
> even had time to do a pillar of white fire for coruscation of finreir spell. I
> have a wife, a job, a 7 month old son etc..etc.... but it is possible. BTW this
> army also won me best painted army in a tournament last weekend with 25 other
> gamers so it doesn't look like crap ( I couldn't play with crappy painted
> miniatures, but that's just me.) I don't judge others painting as I sucked
> before and understand that it is a learning process. I just think people should
> make more of an effort to paint. I like to play on a painted table with decent
> scenery, and nothing looks worse than someone who has an unpainted army and is
> trying to convince me that a toilet roll is a Daemon Prince, fuck off. Just
> paint your mimiatures, take time if necessary, but don't show up every week at
> your store or wherever with the same unpainted crap.
> Man, I must be in a bad mood or something.
>
Rellentles
>If you can't find the time to paint, pay someone to do it for you!
>
Why should I? They look fine unpainted in my eyes and that's the only damn
person I need to please. Elitist bastards .....NAZIS!!!!!!
DemiGod and sidekick, Decoy
paint thier minis, just play Necrons, no one will know they're not
painted. Just say they are and everyone will be like... oh... o...k...
(I haven't tried this out yet but it seems reasonably feasible)
I just used reasonable and feasible one after the other. he he he
--
DemiGod and his sidekick, Decoy, who takes blame for everything!
http://www.angelfire.com/de/DemiGod/
Rose & Joe Barrington
paint, and can't tolerate being bitched back about having no time.
Rose & Joe Barrington
> Friends and Influence People'?
>
> -Mer "Exempt" idian
I just hope homer didn't and never will make a movie about himself.
Joseph Barring"Private parts, starring evil homer"ton
Britfran45
Painting is part of tabletop battlegaming, friend. Do you line your "toys" up
on the floor and roll marbles at them to indicate casualties?? You may as well
do so since you don't risk the possibility of chipping any paint.Unpainted
minis look like shit, period. Playing with some unpainted minis, some of the
time is fine, just be in the process of painting them. It helps if you stick
with one army list for awhile, which also avoids powergaming. As some one
already stated, there is a good correlation between unpainted miniatures and
powergamers.
Huron Blackheart
There's also a high correlation between painting fascists and severe
anal retentiveness.
Huron Blackheart
"If I were the king of all the rotten..."
Ghoull
>Painting is part of tabletop battlegaming, >friend. Do you line your "toys" up
>on the floor and roll marbles at them to >indicate casualties?? You may as
>well do so since you don't risk the possibility >of chipping any
paint.Unpainted
>minis look like shit, period.
I happen to agree that I don't like unpainted
minis much (and am in the slow process of getting mine painted), but all these
high-and-mighty stances against playing with them kinda tick me off.
Take a look at it from this point of view...
You go to play a friendly pickup game of Warhammer 40K at your
neighborhood games store one fine morning, and meet another gamer who has a
painted army of his own, ready for use. Before setting up, he asks you about
the names and personalities of your generals and other characters, the
conditions on the homeworld that your army originates from, and the life story
of any model worth over 150 pts. When you are unable to reply to the
fluff-hound, he begins a long-winded tirade against how he went to the trouble
to create a good backstory, and is infuriated by others who don't do the same.
Or imagine the same situation, only instead of asking you about the fluff
surrounding your army, the other gamer starts going on about his favorite
quotes and tactics from Sun Tzu, Patton, Napoleon, and dang near every other
great military mind you've heard of. Should you have a lesser knowledge of
military history, he begins to berate you on how 40K is a game of strategy and
tactics, not just something for modellers who wanted to play with their minis.
Not the rosiest scenarios, eh?
Playing with some >unpainted minis, some of the time is fine, just >be in the
process of painting them. It helps if >you stick with one army list for awhile,
which >also avoids powergaming. As some one
>already stated, there is a good correlation >between unpainted miniatures and
>powergamers.
Yeah. And don't forget the famous correlation between RPGs and Satanism.
Or the correlation between left-handedness and evil. Or the correlation between
people who hang their toilet paper in an improper overhand fashion and
bestiality.
---Ghoull
Rellentles
>Painting is part of tabletop battlegaming, friend
Perhaps it is for you.
>Unpainted
>minis look like shit, period.
I like them all silvery, why do *you* care if *my* army looks like shit?
>Playing with some unpainted minis, some of the
>time is fine
Whew!! I'm glad I have your permission;P
>already stated, there is a good correlation between unpainted miniatures and
>powergamers.
Kinda like the correlation between elitist painting fanatics and bigoted
assholes.
Huron Blackheart
> Yeah. And don't forget the famous correlation between RPGs and Satanism.
>Or the correlation between left-handedness and evil. Or the correlation between
>people who hang their toilet paper in an improper overhand fashion and
>bestiality.
>
> ---Ghoull
but I'm right-handed and evil....
Huron Blackheart
"Deviant"
Blank Dave
>the names and personalities of your generals and other characters, the
>conditions on the homeworld that your army originates from, and the life
story
>of any model worth over 150 pts. When you are unable to reply to the
>fluff-hound, he begins a long-winded tirade against how he went to the
trouble
>to create a good backstory, and is infuriated by others who don't do the
same.
>
> Or imagine the same situation, only instead of asking you about the
fluff
>surrounding your army, the other gamer starts going on about his favorite
>quotes and tactics from Sun Tzu, Patton, Napoleon, and dang near every
other
>great military mind you've heard of. Should you have a lesser knowledge of
>military history, he begins to berate you on how 40K is a game of strategy
and
>tactics, not just something for modellers who wanted to play with their
minis.
So you've met Bryce Tordiffe too?
Eric Harding
>In article <361b0...@news.oz.net>, ome...@oz.net embarrassed himself at
>an international level by blurting out...
>> In article <6vehv0$he8$1...@news.onramp.net>,
> csm...@spammers.can.kiss.my.pasty.white.butt.onramp.net (Clay
>> Smith) wrote:
>> >This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>> >
>> >Paint your troops. No excuses.
>> >
>> >Clay
>>
>>
> unpainted
>> than if I paint them. But of course, being handicapped is no excuse, right?
>>
>>
>Well, at least it's probably entertaining watching you roll dice.
>
Heh, at least they come up five's or sixes most of the time. My SM/TL Orks
kick ass!
Eric
phoeni...@hotmail.com
britf...@aol.com (Britfran45) wrote:
>
> >Kiss my ass. If you don't like my unpainted minis you can
> >1. Pretend they are masterfully painted by Van Goh, abstract that is.
> >2. Feel free to paint them if you have such a problem with it.
> >3. Refer to your rule book page 187: No player may make you paint your minis,
> >nor do you have to have a painted army to play Warhammer.
> >4. Did I mention kiss my ass?
> >
> >
>
>
> -William Shakespeare's Henry V
>
Ummm...time to state the painfully obvious. Sure most of us slack off
painting, a lot of us have no talent for it, & it's easy to buy new minis
before you finish the last ones. But only an asshole buys a batch of minis
they don't intend to paint just because of their battlefield prowess. In
short, if you don't like to paint miniatures, you're a fucking moron for
getting involved in a miniatures game. What the fuck do you people do for
terrain? Let me guess- you drop some muddy rocks on your round
woodgrain-pattered kitchen table. Sure you can physically use unassembled
unpainted minis game after game but then that just makes you & dipshit & a
putz for even paying the massive cash for the minis at all. If you don't care
about minis, use bottlecaps & pennies. Or better yet, play Magic or something
lazy ass. It should be a law that after the third game a mini is used
unpainted, you have to give it to somebody who'll finish it, in exchange for
a glass bead. And of course this won't bother you if you're one of the many
jackass 'I wanna PLAYplayplay' strokes.
--
***For the love I cannot have
Pain and power my balm and salve***
TiGgEr
I really see no reason to argue over painting .... not painting ...... to me
it's a game/hobby. BUT It's my hobby and the way I see it noone can tell me
or you what to do with it, I think it's that simple. Sometimes you guys
sound like lil' kids, arguing over who has the best toy and why theirs is
the best. I just don't understand ..... why argue over something that really
boils down to personal choice? Am I missing something ..... have the
gaming/hobby gods left me behind that I might actually enjoy myself with MY
game/hobby? Sure there may be ppl who don't paint their armies and are
powergamers but geez that doesn't mean that ppl who DO paint there minis
aren't powergamers either. It's like mini racism or something. I dunno
....... I just don't understand .... what makes some of you people so
retentive about things so trivial like this? Why can't you just play the
game and have fun like you're supposed to. I mean after all it was meant for
entertainment, not a reason to lash out at ppl. I look at it like this .....
I am into the game/hobby for my own enjoyment and I like to play other ppl
..... BUT I don't like to play people who only want to win, that being their
main reason to play, niether do I like to play people who are so elitist in
the areas of rules,backgrounds,painting,non-painting,terrian,no-terrian that
they limit my enjoyment of the game. To me if two or more of us can get
together ..... play a game ... have fun .... and at the end of that game say
"Wow .... that was a really good game of 'so and so', I really enjoyed
playing with you guys!" that would be the greatest accomplishment and
satisfaction I could get outta this game/hobby. - TiGgEr ..... who knows
he's gonna get reamed for sharing his feelings ......... United we
stand,...... divided we fall and spread the world of miniature gaming no
more.
wol...@htcomp.net
relle...@aol.com (Rellentles) wrote:
>
> >If you can't find the time to paint, pay someone to do it for you!
> >
>
> Why should I? They look fine unpainted in my eyes and that's the only damn
> person I need to please. Elitist bastards .....NAZIS!!!!!!
> Soul of Akodo
Hmmm...nice way of putting it. Looks like the only way to deal with these
guys who play with unpainted lead is to use peer preassure on them. Keep
giving them hell untill they do SOMETHING. I mean, how long does it take to
spray a base coat and slap at least one more color on? Yes that looks like
crap, but at least they are painted. Also is it my imagination or is this a
problem mostly related to the fantasy crowd. In all my years of gaming I
have only seen one historical gamer who dared show up at a tournament with
unpainted lead. He caught hell.
Also if you see someone with unpainted lead, send 'em my direction.
(shameless plug..) My work can be seen at
http://gatesville.htcomp.net/wolvie/paint/
Martin
--
"If I wanted to know anything about you I would
divine it by examining your entrails!"
Mors
> Ummm...time to state the painfully obvious. Sure most of us slack off
> painting, a lot of us have no talent for it, & it's easy to buy new minis
> before you finish the last ones. But only an asshole buys a batch of minis
> they don't intend to paint just because of their battlefield prowess. In
> short, if you don't like to paint miniatures, you're a fucking moron for
> getting involved in a miniatures game. What the fuck do you people do for
> terrain? Let me guess- you drop some muddy rocks on your round
> woodgrain-pattered kitchen table. Sure you can physically use unassembled
> unpainted minis game after game but then that just makes you & dipshit & a
> putz for even paying the massive cash for the minis at all. If you don't care
> about minis, use bottlecaps & pennies. Or better yet, play Magic or something
> lazy ass. It should be a law that after the third game a mini is used
> unpainted, you have to give it to somebody who'll finish it, in exchange for
> a glass bead. And of course this won't bother you if you're one of the many
> jackass 'I wanna PLAYplayplay' strokes.
On an more polite level. . .
Why don't you volunteer to paint their mini's for them.
Instead of ranting about unpainted mini's, why not talk
about easy ways to paint, or quick tips for quickly
painting them.
Try being constructive, not a Paint-Nazi.
Later,
Mors,
aka Ryan, aka Shrike
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
Blank Dave
> Ummm...time to state the painfully obvious. Sure most of us slack off
>painting, a lot of us have no talent for it, & it's easy to buy new minis
>before you finish the last ones. But only an asshole buys a batch of minis
>they don't intend to paint just because of their battlefield prowess. In
>short, if you don't like to paint miniatures, you're a fucking moron for
>getting involved in a miniatures game. What the fuck do you people do for
>terrain? Let me guess- you drop some muddy rocks on your round
>woodgrain-pattered kitchen table. Sure you can physically use unassembled
>unpainted minis game after game but then that just makes you & dipshit & a
>putz for even paying the massive cash for the minis at all. If you don't
care
>about minis, use bottlecaps & pennies. Or better yet, play Magic or
something
>lazy ass. It should be a law that after the third game a mini is used
>unpainted, you have to give it to somebody who'll finish it, in exchange
for
>a glass bead. And of course this won't bother you if you're one of the many
>jackass 'I wanna PLAYplayplay' strokes.
Why don't I finish my figures..besides boucing between two armies, and 7
garage kits (which take a lot of time). When we play we take out paint and
brushes and announce that casualties will be marked with paint - red
splotches for infantry and big grey splotches for vehicles or we play a
"Kill and Keep" game, and that you get to keep any figure your army "kills."
Why would I want to paint my figs when that can happen?
Blank Dave
"Uranus is gaseous"
The Brain
Thank Tom
HCamper123
> But only an asshole buys a batch of minis
>they don't intend to paint just because of their battlefield prowess. In
>short, if you don't like to paint miniatures, you're a fucking moron for
>getting involved in a miniatures game. What the fuck do you people do for
>terrain? Let me guess- you drop some muddy rocks on your round
>woodgrain-pattered kitchen table. Sure you can physically use unassembled
>unpainted minis game after game but then that just makes you & dipshit & a
>putz for even paying the massive cash for the minis at all. If you don't care
>about minis, use bottlecaps & pennies. Or better yet, play Magic or something
>lazy ass. It should be a law that after the third game a mini is used
>unpainted, you have to give it to somebody who'll finish it, in exchange for
>a glass bead. And of course this won't bother you if you're one of the many
>jackass 'I wanna PLAYplayplay' strokes.
>
>
Ah yes, a perfect example of the new GW generation. The best argument you can
come up with is "you are an asshole if you don't play the game exactly how I
want you to" - which by the way is a bullshit arguement. (When you learn to
read, pickup a book on logic and look up Ad Hominum - the fallacy you have just
tried to use). If we use your logic, noone would want to play ANY boardgame at
all that uses any form of counter. Let me guess, you don't play monopoly with
people unless people have a painted wheelbarrow to use as a playing piece? I
personally wouldn't play against you with painted armies or not. Not because
you prefer painted minis - but because you are an asshole about it. We're here
to play a game, not have someone else try to run our lives. What's your next
target, perhaps anyone using the wrong kind of trees for terrain is a
homosexual?
Hunter Thomas
Mors wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Oct 1998 06:51:58 GMT phoeni...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
<SNIP>
> And of course this won't bother you if you're one of the many
> > jackass 'I wanna PLAYplayplay' strokes.
>
> On an more polite level. . .
>
> Why don't you volunteer to paint their mini's for them.
>
> Instead of ranting about unpainted mini's, why not talk
> about easy ways to paint, or quick tips for quickly
> painting them.
>
> Try being constructive, not a Paint-Nazi.
>
> Later,
>
> Mors,
> aka Ryan, aka Shrike
> --
> Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
> http://www.talkway.com
This is a well put point, for both of you. While I hate the people that buy mins
for there coolness on the battle field alone (I for instance, have never done this.
I buy mins that I like, not ones that are simply good. If they happen to be good as
well, that is not my fault. Like Eldar for instance. I like the mins. Same with the
Space Wolves. I began buying both these armies before I knew how much the could
kick, as in the Eldar case, or how chesse they are. I don't play the SW, because
the are chesse, but I still buy mins for them. Well, every so often anyway, I still
mainly buy mins to play with as well, but only if I like there look. I would never
buy a Shining spear, even if they made them, for instance. The Normal jet bikes
look preaty cool, but I would not some cheesy headed lance wielding wacko on one.
Nor would I convert one of these or, say the Dragon knights, for a good troop type
as an example.) But, hey, if that is what lights you up, as long as they are not to
cheesy, I'll play with them, but not if they refuse to paint there mins. You can't
make someone paint there mins, but if they don't you may not want to play with them
anyway, as they may well be a rules lawering buttknocker. So there.
Big Daddy Rishar
> I happen to agree that I don't like unpainted
> minis much (and am in the slow process of getting mine painted), but all these
> high-and-mighty stances against playing with them kinda tick me off.
Call it righteous indignation if "high-and-mighty" doesn't appeal to
you.
> Take a look at it from this point of view...
>
> You go to play a friendly pickup game of Warhammer 40K at your
> neighborhood games store one fine morning, and meet another gamer who has a
> painted army of his own, ready for use. Before setting up, he asks you about
> the names and personalities of your generals and other characters, the
> conditions on the homeworld that your army originates from, and the life story
> of any model worth over 150 pts. When you are unable to reply to the
> fluff-hound, he begins a long-winded tirade against how he went to the trouble
> to create a good backstory, and is infuriated by others who don't do the same.
But this isn't about backgrounds, is it? It's about painting. My Chaos
Lord is named (appropriately enough) "The Chaos Lord." He hasn't been
blessed with the most original name in history, or the most colorful
background, but his paint job ain't too bad, if I do say so myself.
> Or imagine the same situation, only instead of asking you about the fluff
> surrounding your army, the other gamer starts going on about his favorite
> quotes and tactics from Sun Tzu, Patton, Napoleon, and dang near every other
> great military mind you've heard of. Should you have a lesser knowledge of
> military history, he begins to berate you on how 40K is a game of strategy and
> tactics, not just something for modellers who wanted to play with their minis.
Whenever I see any of these guys, I explain to them the diverging path
between the 40K rules system and historical tactics/strategy. They
normally see my point of view after a while...especially when I start
ridiculing them for it. But again, this isn't about Sun Tzu -- this is
about painting. There IS a difference. Whether or not I could command
a legion of Rome's finest doesn't affect the way the game looks, and it
certainly doesn't reflect negatively on the amount of time and money I
spent on my army. (I don't think I can handle a legion, but I do fairly
well with CSM's.)
I mean, come ON...we spend a godawful amount of money on these minis.
We ought to take the additional time (and it doesn't take much time,
either -- get to know spraypaint) to at least cover them up a bit.
> Not the rosiest scenarios, eh?
Good heavens, no. If we're going to explore the extremes, however,
those of us that believe in painting could post some just as readily.
(Like the story about the guy that still had his army in blisterpacks at
the start of the game...but I won't go there.) I think we need to stay
on track here.
> Yeah. And don't forget the famous correlation between RPGs and Satanism.
> Or the correlation between left-handedness and evil. Or the correlation between
> people who hang their toilet paper in an improper overhand fashion and
> bestiality.
Are you saying left-handed people aren't evil? Just look at them
write! That kind of shit just ain't normal.
-- Con: right-handed, painter, and he doesn't hang his toilet paper.
(The roller is broken and I spend too much time painting my minis to fix
it.)
Brian Schenck
> Hey, look at me, I'm clay. I'll bitch to anything that moves but dosen't
> paint, and can't tolerate being bitched back about having no time.
>
Would your name also happen to be Gumbi?
Big Daddy Rishar
>
> I really see no reason to argue over painting .... not painting ...... to me
> it's a game/hobby. BUT It's my hobby and the way I see it noone can tell me
> or you what to do with it, I think it's that simple. Sometimes you guys
> sound like lil' kids, arguing over who has the best toy and why theirs is
> the best. I just don't understand ..... why argue over something that really
> boils down to personal choice? Am I missing something ..... have the
> gaming/hobby gods left me behind that I might actually enjoy myself with MY
> game/hobby? Sure there may be ppl who don't paint their armies and are
> powergamers but geez that doesn't mean that ppl who DO paint there minis
> aren't powergamers either. It's like mini racism or something. I dunno
First things first. Not all the "pro-painters" are against non-painters
on the basis of powergaming. I know that I'm certainly not. I'm one
powergaming motherfucker. I play 40K not for the tactics, because as we
all know full well, 40K is not a tactics-oriented game. (3rd edition is
a step in the right direction, but GW is still on the wrong road.)
When I want a game where tactics are more important than Wargear and
troop selection, I play something like HG. I play 40K because I like
sending my massively-overpowered armies of cheeze against my opponent's
massively-overpowered army of cheeze.
*I* have a problem with non-painters because the Silver Legions of Doom
kill *my* buzz. It's like going to a car show and finding a primer-gray
junkyard hoopdy amid all the glossy colors and chrome. Granted, it IS a
car, and technically speaking, it has a place at a car show...but it
turns my stomach. If I want to see one of those, I'll go out in the
parking lot and look at a few. I DON'T want to see one at a car show.
Granted, non-painted powergamer armies do annoy the hell out of me. I
have no problem with powergaming by itself (as I said), but when the
Gray Plastic Army of Character-Abuse comes marching out to attempt
(sometimes successfully, sometimes not) to outcheeze my
Fairly-Well-Painted Chaos Army of Cheezy Death, I find it annoying.
Hell, I find it insulting. The player in question ought to take a few
hours out of his/her exhausting schedule of searching for rules
loopholes to slap some primer on those things.
> ....... I just don't understand .... what makes some of you people so
> retentive about things so trivial like this? Why can't you just play the
> game and have fun like you're supposed to. I mean after all it was meant for
> entertainment, not a reason to lash out at ppl. I look at it like this .....
> I am into the game/hobby for my own enjoyment and I like to play other ppl
We're in agreement on your last comment. I'm into the game/hobby for my
own enjoyment, and yes, I like to play other people. (I'm assuming the
game would be fairly predictable without an opponent.) Go back to the
first part of that -- my own enjoyment. Part of that is having my army
painted, and facing off against another army that's also painted.
Second statement: we both like to play against other people. If I can
find other players I tolerate, who abide by my "little rules", then I'm
having fun and kicking ass. Most people I know don't have a problem
with painting their armies. When they see just how much better a
painted army looks than a non-painted one -- even one that's not painted
well -- they usually take the initiative. If they don't know how to
paint, they learn. If they don't have the resources to learn, I'm more
than happy to teach them how to. Most painters are. I even supply old
junked minis to them for free, so they can practice without wasting
their money.
> ..... BUT I don't like to play people who only want to win, that being their
> main reason to play, niether do I like to play people who are so elitist in
> the areas of rules,backgrounds,painting,non-painting,terrian,no-terrian that
> they limit my enjoyment of the game. To me if two or more of us can get
> together ..... play a game ... have fun .... and at the end of that game say
> "Wow .... that was a really good game of 'so and so', I really enjoyed
> playing with you guys!" that would be the greatest accomplishment and
Hey...if someone's so elitist about a certain element of the game that
they won't play with you, oh well. If they're elitist to the point
where they can't find opponents, they won't have much fun at the game.
I wouldn't consider myself that elitist, as I regularly find opponents,
and my only real rule is that they at least make an effort at painting
their minis. (Well, that and they don't throw MY minis around when they
lose.) That seems to be the basic rule amongst the paint-or-die
elitists.
> satisfaction I could get outta this game/hobby. - TiGgEr ..... who knows
> he's gonna get reamed for sharing his feelings ......... United we
> stand,...... divided we fall and spread the world of miniature gaming no
> more.
Nah. We'll just keep putting pressure on the non-painters until they
conform. =P
One final thought -- I don't know about some of the other pro-paint
people around here, but I'm looking at this topic only half-seriously.
I've met VERY few people who absolutely REFUSE to ever paint their
minis. Most of the Silver Doom Legions I've seen are in the process of
being painted (however slowly), and that's fine with me. As long as the
player is making an attempt.
As for the recalcitrant ones that refuse to paint...well, they miss out
on the dubious honor of dealing with some of the finest cheeze Chaos has
to offer.
-- Con: High and Mighty Painter Astride his High Horse. Bow, mortals.
Bow and behold my glory. (All this, and a chat on ICQ, too. Damn, I'm
talented. <G>)
Edmund Metheny
Ghoull wrote:
> Yeah. And don't forget the famous correlation between RPGs and Satanism.
> Or the correlation between left-handedness and evil. Or the correlation between
> people who hang their toilet paper in an improper overhand fashion and
> bestiality.
>
> ---Ghoull
Whoops!
Um....
I WONDERED why I have the occasional craving for lamb....
EM
--
Edmund M. Metheny
Arcata, CA
ICQ#: 3716119
AOL IM: Edmund6666
"For us of the minority, the opportunity to see geese
is more important than television, and the chance to find
a pasque-flower is a right as inalienable as free speech."
-Aldo Leopold
Edmund Metheny
Rellentles wrote:
> Kinda like the correlation between elitist painting fanatics and bigoted
> assholes.
>
I resent that!
I am NOT an elitist painting fanatic.
Edmund Metheny
wol...@htcomp.net wrote:
> Hmmm...nice way of putting it. Looks like the only way to deal with these
> guys who play with unpainted lead is to use peer preassure on them. Keep
> giving them hell untill they do SOMETHING. I mean, how long does it take to
> spray a base coat and slap at least one more color on? Yes that looks like
> crap, but at least they are painted. Also is it my imagination or is this a
> problem mostly related to the fantasy crowd. In all my years of gaming I
> have only seen one historical gamer who dared show up at a tournament with
> unpainted lead. He caught hell.
My personal response to this sort of behavior would be to bring a big can of
spray solvent to the next game and hose down the obnoxious individual's lovingly
painted army the first opportunity I got. My philosophy of life is that if you
treat me like shit I will make sure to spread some on you if I can, and the sort
of bellicose, rude, obnoxious treatment that people are suggesting sounds like
just the sort of behavior that qualifies.
Bitching at people and being belligerant (whether regarding the quality of their
painting or virtually anything else) usually only makes them mad. If you can't
be polite and make reasoned arguments explaining why painted minis are more
appropriate to the gaming environment then, IMHO, just shut the heck up. Nobody
forces you to play with ANYONE. If you don't want to play against opponents
with unpainted minis, then you don't have to. If you are REALLY hung up on the
whole thing, ask your local gaming store or tournament host to specify that
miniatures must be painted.
Edmund Metheny
phoeni...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <19981007013825...@ng127.aol.com>,
> britf...@aol.com (Britfran45) wrote:
> >
> > >Kiss my ass. If you don't like my unpainted minis you can
> > >1. Pretend they are masterfully painted by Van Goh, abstract that is.
> > >2. Feel free to paint them if you have such a problem with it.
> > >3. Refer to your rule book page 187: No player may make you paint your minis,
> > >nor do you have to have a painted army to play Warhammer.
> > >4. Did I mention kiss my ass?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I don't thinks so shit-for-brains, I just wouldn't play you, period.
> >
> > "O God of battles! steel my soldiers' hearts"
> > -William Shakespeare's Henry V
> >
>
> Ummm...time to state the painfully obvious. Sure most of us slack off
> painting, a lot of us have no talent for it, & it's easy to buy new minis
> before you finish the last ones. But only an asshole buys a batch of minis
> they don't intend to paint just because of their battlefield prowess. In
> short, if you don't like to paint miniatures, you're a fucking moron for
> getting involved in a miniatures game. What the fuck do you people do for
> terrain? Let me guess- you drop some muddy rocks on your round
> woodgrain-pattered kitchen table. Sure you can physically use unassembled
> unpainted minis game after game but then that just makes you & dipshit & a
> putz for even paying the massive cash for the minis at all. If you don't care
> about minis, use bottlecaps & pennies. Or better yet, play Magic or something
> lazy ass. It should be a law that after the third game a mini is used
> unpainted, you have to give it to somebody who'll finish it, in exchange for
> a glass bead. And of course this won't bother you if you're one of the many
> jackass 'I wanna PLAYplayplay' strokes.
Do the suggestions made in this post (profanity aside) remind anyone of the good old
days of Rogue Trader where you could use your shoe as a Rhino, and you piled books
up under green cloth to make hills?
*SIGH* Oh, for the good old days....
Rellentles
>Nah. We'll just keep putting pressure on the non-painters until they
>conform.
You will join the paint-nazis!!!! Resistance is futile!!!!
*shakes head in disgust*
I still can't believe people are this fucking stupid and pigheaded.
phoeni...@hotmail.com
hcamp...@aol.com (HCamper123) wrote:
>
> Ah yes, a perfect example of the new GW generation. The best argument you can
> come up with is "you are an asshole if you don't play the game exactly how I
> want you to" - which by the way is a bullshit arguement. (When you learn to
> read, pickup a book on logic and look up Ad Hominum - the fallacy you have
just
> tried to use). If we use your logic, noone would want to play ANY boardgame at
> all that uses any form of counter. Let me guess, you don't play monopoly with
> people unless people have a painted wheelbarrow to use as a playing piece? I
> personally wouldn't play against you with painted armies or not. Not because
> you prefer painted minis - but because you are an asshole about it. We're here
> to play a game, not have someone else try to run our lives. What's your next
> target, perhaps anyone using the wrong kind of trees for terrain is a
> homosexual?
>
Ah,yes another lazy ass copping out because you have no real reply. It isn't
a matter of 'how I want to play' as if there's more than one way to play a
*miniatures* game. That way is with miniatures which entails, innately, a
hobby aspect. You're a new school poser wanting to play this game but not
actually do it for real. As for your 'logic' issue if you really knew a thing
on the subject you'd A) contest the actual issues raised instead of trying to
put bullshit judgement & B)actually USE something I said as an example when
pretending to refer to my logic. So to summarize. You have no point. You are
full of shit whining about new generation. Only a fuckwad would have a
problem with new generation players to start with. Not to mention that I have
played this particular set of games (i.e. WHFB) since about 1985. During
which time I've seen countless halfassed attempts like yours to play this
game. Your sad little bitch about Monopoly et al only backs me up. I stated
the fact that only assholes get into MINIATURES games if they aren't into the
MINIATURES hobby. So according to my logic AS STATED this would mean only an
asshole insists on playing a board game using miniatures. Pay attention next
time clueless. And obviously nobody wants to play you as you can't be
bothered to put any effort out. I bet you sure do Buy stacks of Termanators,
etc.. though huh? As for quick tips, there's only one real one- practice.
You'll get faster like that. Oh well- class dismissed.
--
***For the love I cannot have
Pain and power my balm and salve***
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Tiamat6
> Ummm...time to state the painfully obvious. Sure most of us slack off
> painting, a lot of us have no talent for it, & it's easy to buy new minis
> before you finish the last ones. But only an asshole buys a batch of minis
> they don't intend to paint just because of their battlefield prowess. In
> short, if you don't like to paint miniatures, you're a fucking moron for
> getting involved in a miniatures game. What the fuck do you people do for
> terrain? Let me guess- you drop some muddy rocks on your round
> woodgrain-pattered kitchen table. Sure you can physically use unassembled
> unpainted minis game after game but then that just makes you & dipshit & a
> putz for even paying the massive cash for the minis at all. If you don't care
> about minis, use bottlecaps & pennies. Or better yet, play Magic or something
> lazy ass. It should be a law that after the third game a mini is used
> unpainted, you have to give it to somebody who'll finish it, in exchange for
> a glass bead. And of course this won't bother you if you're one of the many
> jackass 'I wanna PLAYplayplay' strokes.
Does it really matter? Is the world going to come to some kind of horrible,
painful end if some guy doesn't paint his miniatures? It looks better, and of
course, I would prefer it to look better, but why flame people just because
they don't want to paint? A person's way of playing is their way of playing.
If you disagree with the way they play, tell them, but don't make it sound like
it's imperitive that they do what you say.
-Tiamat6
''I think he got out of jury duty by claiming he was violently prejudiced
against mimes.''-Greg Fox, Antibiotic Induced Dreams Remove
DIESPAM to reply.
squigger
>
> >>If you can't find the time to paint, pay someone to do it for you!
> >>
> >
> >Why should I? They look fine unpainted in my eyes and that's the only damn
> >person I need to please. Elitist bastards .....NAZIS!!!!!!
> > "When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live so that when you
> >die, the world cries and you rejoice.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> on the floor and roll marbles at them to indicate casualties?? You may as well
> do so since you don't risk the possibility of chipping any paint.Unpainted
> time is fine, just be in the process of painting them. It helps if you stick
> with one army list for awhile, which also avoids powergaming. As some one
> powergamers.
>
> -William Shakespeare's Henry V
I've ignored this crap for months now, but it's gone too far...
What the fuck is wrong with you people? Wargaming is a hobby, not some
religion. There is no set way to do it. Some people cannot find the
time to paint their miniatures. They may or may not be able to pay
someone to do it, but why should they? The core of the hobby is
tactical wargaming on a tabletop, with either tokens or miniatures.
There are also those who just can't paint well, or have no interest in
painting. Why should they be barred from the hobby just because some
shitbrained areshole feels like being snobbish? Go perform the
impossible act (fuck yourself) if you feel that painting is mandatory
and all those who don't should be shot.
Thank you for this excellent opportunity to release some bile.
--
squigger
**** to reply, remove ANTISPAM from address
Please use tags in rec.games.miniatures.warhammer
My home page:
www2.ozland.net.au/jasonjob
I do indeed state the obvious - it's always the obvious that's
overlooked
squigger
>
> On 8 Oct 1998 01:58:31 GMT, gho...@aol.com (Ghoull) wrote:
>
> > Yeah. And don't forget the famous correlation between RPGs and Satanism.
> >Or the correlation between left-handedness and evil. Or the correlation between
> >people who hang their toilet paper in an improper overhand fashion and
> >bestiality.
> >
> > ---Ghoull
>
>
> Huron Blackheart
> "Deviant"
And left-handedness and homosexuality.
Huron Blackheart
one word:
"elitism"
everybody needs to make themselves feel good, usually at someone elses
expense, petty little men manufacture reasons to make themselves
believe they are better than someone else.
Huron Blackheart
"The Knee Jerk Flame Troll and Last Bastion of Integrity."
Blank Dave
mins
>for there coolness on the battle field alone (I for instance, have never
done this.
>I buy mins that I like, not ones that are simply good. If they happen to be
good as
>well, that is not my fault.
Hear, hear!! I started liking and collecting Harlequins when a friend
dropped off a photocopy of their army list nearly 7 years ago. I had heard
of 40K, but had never played it much less heard of it. Why did he bring
this army list then? Because he knew I'ld like it, I didn't understand it,
but I liked it. To me the Harlies were cool, and that's why I picked them
up. marines I chose because they were kinda cool too, but they were also
very utlitarian.
Blank Dave
good old
>days of Rogue Trader where you could use your shoe as a Rhino, and you
piled books
>up under green cloth to make hills?
"My Marine comes around the roll of toilet paper, and fires at your Eldar,
who is partially covered by that tape case"
Exert (???) from the Chonicles of the Campaign for
Planet Butt Wipus III (the Toilet Paper Planet)
Robin Lim
DemiGod and sidekick, Decoy wrote in message <361C40...@wmich.edu>...
>I just wanted to tell all those people out there who can't/don't want to
>paint thier minis, just play Necrons, no one will know they're not
>painted. Just say they are and everyone will be like... oh... o...k...
>(I haven't tried this out yet but it seems reasonably feasible)
>
>I just used reasonable and feasible one after the other. he he he
Or Chaos. If you're fielding units belonging to the Iron Legion...
But hell, what's so difficult about priming black, drybrushing Boltgun
Metal, and maybe adding a little bit of highlight here and there if you
really don't have any painting ability? I mean, if I was desperate, I'd do
that, but I'm not. And I do want to take my time to paint.
>DemiGod and his sidekick, Decoy, who takes blame for everything!
>http://www.angelfire.com/de/DemiGod/
phoeni...@hotmail.com
"Blank Dave" <blank...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> > Ummm...time to state the painfully obvious. Sure most of us slack off
> >painting, a lot of us have no talent for it, & it's easy to buy new minis
> >before you finish the last ones. But only an asshole buys a batch of minis
> >they don't intend to paint just because of their battlefield prowess. In
> >short, if you don't like to paint miniatures, you're a fucking moron for
> >getting involved in a miniatures game. What the fuck do you people do for
> >terrain? Let me guess- you drop some muddy rocks on your round
> >woodgrain-pattered kitchen table. Sure you can physically use unassembled
> >unpainted minis game after game but then that just makes you & dipshit & a
> >putz for even paying the massive cash for the minis at all. If you don't
> care
> >about minis, use bottlecaps & pennies. Or better yet, play Magic or
> something
> >lazy ass. It should be a law that after the third game a mini is used
> >unpainted, you have to give it to somebody who'll finish it, in exchange
> for
> >a glass bead. And of course this won't bother you if you're one of the many
> >jackass 'I wanna PLAYplayplay' strokes.
>
> garage kits (which take a lot of time). When we play we take out paint and
> brushes and announce that casualties will be marked with paint - red
> splotches for infantry and big grey splotches for vehicles or we play a
> "Kill and Keep" game, and that you get to keep any figure your army "kills."
> Why would I want to paint my figs when that can happen?
>
>
> "Uranus is gaseous"
> The Brain
>
I guess taking them off the table would be too simple huh?
Stobpeace
an unpainted army is ok when you kick his ass, if you lose you hit the
roof and bitch about
"spend-more-time-on-painting-and-stop-figuring-out-tactics-that-are-better-than-yours"
?
Thomas
Oliver Booms
>
> Bitching at people and being belligerant (whether regarding the quality of their
> painting or virtually anything else) usually only makes them mad. If you can't
> be polite and make reasoned arguments explaining why painted minis are more
> appropriate to the gaming environment then, IMHO, just shut the heck up. Nobody
> forces you to play with ANYONE. If you don't want to play against opponents
> with unpainted minis, then you don't have to. If you are REALLY hung up on the
> whole thing, ask your local gaming store or tournament host to specify that
> miniatures must be painted.
>
Hmmm, well I don't really see the point in getting so wound up about a
topic like that. I myself use only painted minis when playing (it's fun
when you can finally use the squad you've spent the last couple of days
painting), but, well I play the game basically so I have an excuse to buy
and paint all those expensive minis (would feel bad if they only sttod on
the shelf gatehring dust...). But why in hell should I force other people to
paint their minis? I'vo come to notice that about 90% of powergamers tend to
not paint their minis or dip them in a pot of paint(and I make it apoint of
not playing against people who use Gretchin screens so their Chaos Marines
can advance unharmed or some bullshit like that), but I wouldn't think
that anyone that doesn't paint his minis is a powergamer to be burnt at the
stake. Mind you, I pity people who don't paint their minis as they miss waht
is obviously the best part of the hobby (yeah! go for it Mr.
Painting-Snob!), but it's their decision not mine.
The only thing I wonder, why people actually buy all those minis (last time
I checked they were damn expensive) and actually play those games. As
tactical exercise (i.e. without the fluff and minis the games (GW, Target,
whatever) aren't worth that much...most of those oh-so tactically minded
general types would be better off with some of those crappy
cardboard-counterfests covered in dust in the back of some game store.
(You know them, the kind you look at and and wonder, "Who the heck would
actually spend some money on some pink and green counters with small tanks
on them?")
Bis dahin -
'da Bomster. Painting snob and proud of it.
(bo...@uni-muenster.de)
Danke, Sie waren ein tolles Publikum.
Oliver Booms
>
> There's also a high correlation between painting fascists and severe
> anal retentiveness.
>
> Huron Blackheart
> "If I were the king of all the rotten..."
>
>
Well, if that were correct all of us here would be able to paint to 'eavy
metal standard.
Bis dahin -
'da Bomster.
sba...@my-dejanews.com
"Oliver Booms" <bo...@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
> Well, if that were correct all of us here would be able to paint to 'eavy
> metal standard.
I paint to a high 'Eavy Metal standard. By that, I mean that my finished work
looks exactly like what the 'Eavy Metal team would produce if they were
stoned out of their skulls.
--
Scott Baxter
Stobpeace
> The Brain
wol...@htcomp.net
> My personal response to this sort of behavior would be to bring a big can of
> spray solvent to the next game and hose down the obnoxious individual's lovingly
> painted army the first opportunity I got. My philosophy of life is that if you
> treat me like shit I will make sure to spread some on you if I can, and the sort
> of bellicose, rude, obnoxious treatment that people are suggesting sounds like
> just the sort of behavior that qualifies
Sounds like a good way to get yourself shot. I knowmore than one person who
carries a pistol to tournaments.....
If you don't want to play against opponents
> with unpainted minis, then you don't have to. If you are REALLY hung up on the
> whole thing, ask your local gaming store or tournament host to specify that
> miniatures must be painted.
Gee, every GW tournament or gaming store I have ever been in has a
no-paint-no-play rule. So what tree do you live in?
Anyway,no one has every answered my question; is it just me, or is this just
a problem with the fantasy crowd?
Martin
--
"If I wanted to know anything about you I would
divine it by examining your entrails!"
wol...@htcomp.net
>
> everybody needs to make themselves feel good, usually at someone elses
> expense, petty little men manufacture reasons to make themselves
> believe they are better than someone else.
>
> Huron Blackheart
> "The Knee Jerk Flame Troll and Last Bastion of Integrity."
>
Tell me "Huron", are you left handed? ;->
Brian Wallace Orlowsky
>
> Britfran45 wrote:
<Snip>
> Go perform the impossible act (fuck yourself) if you feel that > painting is mandatory and all those who don't should be shot.
>
> Thank you for this excellent opportunity to release some bile.
>
> --
What makes you sure it is an impossible act in his case. Recent studies
show a direct correlation between Paint fanatics and people who fuck
themselves regularly.
Thorn
"I paint when I can, when I cant I dont"
sba...@my-dejanews.com
wol...@htcomp.net wrote:
> Also is it my imagination or is this a
> problem mostly related to the fantasy crowd. In all my years of gaming I
> have only seen one historical gamer who dared show up at a tournament with
> unpainted lead. He caught hell.
Actually, it's a matter of defining the problem properly. Is it only people
with years of gaming who can muster up enough holier-than-thou fury as to
think that someone else's way of enjoying a hobby is a problem?
Tentative results are that the evidence suggests no - many long-term gamers
aren't assholes, and many relatively newer gamers still labour under the
delusion that they can pass judgement over somebody else's use of spare time.
We'll need to come up with a new hypothesis, I guess.
--
Scott Baxter
acro...@suba01.suba.com
:>Nah. We'll just keep putting pressure on the non-painters until they
:>conform.
: You will join the paint-nazis!!!! Resistance is futile!!!!
: *shakes head in disgust*
: I still can't believe people are this fucking stupid and pigheaded.
OK. If you are not painting your minis, then why use minis at all?
Play the game with friggin cardboard chits. Same difference.
Go play Squad Leader. Much better rules anyway. I say
you're an idiot for paying hundreds of $ for minis for no reason.
jfs
acro...@suba01.suba.com
:>If you can't find the time to paint, pay someone to do it for you!
:>
: Why should I? They look fine unpainted in my eyes and that's the only damn
: person I need to please. Elitist bastards .....NAZIS!!!!!!
: Soul of Akodo
If you are not playing for the esthetics of painted minis and cool
terrain, then why are you playing? God knows the WFB rules are the
worst crap going today. Don't tell me you actually enjoy the
"game?"
:-)
jfs
One of the Lloyds
<britf...@aol.com> writes
>
Well, I also like to use painted models. i like to see greta terrain,
great models in full technicolour. However, if someone turns up with an
unpainted army I wouldn't really care. Each to their own. I prefer
painted models and I voluntarily never field unpainted models if
possible, but this is because IU like painting and like the look of
them. Live and let live, everyone else can do what they like and I'm
willing to fight against anyone, painted army or not.
I would just like to add, judging by the below and by the number of
replies, you are going to get flamed so badly you'll actually be able to
find a use for the ceramic armour vehicle card. Let the flame war begin.
oh, its already started.
see ya,
Ranger, bringing you common sense whatever the weather
>Hey, if you want to play with unpainted armies, fine, they just look like shit.
>( I've done it in the past and mine looked like shit too ) I'm tired of all the
>" I don't have time...." whiney crap though. I just finished a 2000pt High Elf
>army ( and anybody who knows HE's knows how tough they are to paint ) in two
>and a half weeks. That's Seaguard, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, Reaver
>Knights, a chariot, 2 bolt throwers, 2 mages and a converted general.......I
>even had time to do a pillar of white fire for coruscation of finreir spell. I
>have a wife, a job, a 7 month old son etc..etc.... but it is possible. BTW this
>army also won me best painted army in a tournament last weekend with 25 other
>gamers so it doesn't look like crap ( I couldn't play with crappy painted
>miniatures, but that's just me.) I don't judge others painting as I sucked
>before and understand that it is a learning process. I just think people should
>make more of an effort to paint. I like to play on a painted table with decent
>scenery, and nothing looks worse than someone who has an unpainted army and is
>trying to convince me that a toilet roll is a Daemon Prince, fuck off. Just
>paint your mimiatures, take time if necessary, but don't show up every week at
>your store or wherever with the same unpainted crap.
> Man, I must be in a bad mood or something.
>
>
>"O God of battles! steel my soldiers' hearts"
> -William Shakespeare's Henry V
Ranger
PLAYTEST A FREE WARGAME!!
Enigma's Table Top Sci-Fi skirmish wargame is now available,
FREE, at http://www.zoomnet.net/~alice/
We always like to here your comments, so afterwards, why not
E-mail <al...@zoomnet.net> with questions and suggestions.
I recommend playing a small game with a squad on each side, then
try a bigger one but miss out the psychics and vehicles.
Duo Maxwell
Rellentles wrote in message <19981008203415...@ng11.aol.com>...
>
>>Nah. We'll just keep putting pressure on the non-painters until they
>>conform.
>
>You will join the paint-nazis!!!! Resistance is futile!!!!
>
>*shakes head in disgust*
>I still can't believe people are this fucking stupid and pigheaded.
>
>
if they end up shitty, and little is painted a week, he does not care.
Hey, even I manage 2-5 hours a month for painting...
And they are always built and primed....
acro...@suba01.suba.com
: I've ignored this crap for months now, but it's gone too far...
: What the fuck is wrong with you people? Wargaming is a hobby, not some
: religion. There is no set way to do it. Some people cannot find the
: time to paint their miniatures. They may or may not be able to pay
: someone to do it, but why should they? The core of the hobby is
: tactical wargaming on a tabletop, with either tokens or miniatures.
Exactly. Then why are you so stupid to pay hundred of dollars for
minis when cardboard chits would serve just as well? Or just buy
the bases, and write the name of the troop?
If the reason to use minis is not the esthetics of painting and
making cool terrain, then pray tell why use minis at all?
jfs
Duo Maxwell
>
>But hell, what's so difficult about priming black, drybrushing Boltgun
>Metal, and maybe adding a little bit of highlight here and there if you
>really don't have any painting ability? I mean, if I was desperate, I'd do
>that, but I'm not. And I do want to take my time to paint.
>
their brother chapter,
the Shadow Warriors?
Thankfully Legion of the Damned is almost as easy.
(Black, with silver bones, gold flames, and a little bronze..)
Paul Scrivens-Smith
Tiamat6 <tia...@aol.com.DIESPAM> wrote in article
<19981008214822...@ng59.aol.com>...
> Does it really matter? Is the world going to come to some kind of
horrible,
> painful end if some guy doesn't paint his miniatures?
Never heard of The Chaos Theory ;-)
It looks better, and of
> course, I would prefer it to look better, but why flame people just
because
> they don't want to paint?
I don'r play with unpainted figures, I don't play people who use unpainted
figures, fine by me if they want to borrow one of my painted armies though.
Paul Scrivens-Smith
HCamper123 <hcamp...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981008112631...@ng09.aol.com>...
>
> > But only an asshole buys a batch of minis
> >they don't intend to paint just because of their battlefield prowess. In
> >short, if you don't like to paint miniatures, you're a fucking moron for
> >getting involved in a miniatures game. What the fuck do you people do
for
> >terrain? Let me guess- you drop some muddy rocks on your round
> >woodgrain-pattered kitchen table. Sure you can physically use
unassembled
> >unpainted minis game after game but then that just makes you & dipshit &
a
> >putz for even paying the massive cash for the minis at all. If you don't
care
> >about minis, use bottlecaps & pennies. Or better yet, play Magic or
something
> >lazy ass. It should be a law that after the third game a mini is used
> >unpainted, you have to give it to somebody who'll finish it, in exchange
for
> >a glass bead. And of course this won't bother you if you're one of the
many
> >jackass 'I wanna PLAYplayplay' strokes.
> >
> >
>
> Ah yes, a perfect example of the new GW generation.
What's so new generation about it?, I have been playing Warhammer since 1st
edition (actually played Reaper beforehand) and have *never* used an
unpainted figure in all that time.
> The best argument you can
> come up with is "you are an asshole if you don't play the game exactly
how I
> want you to" - which by the way is a bullshit arguement. (When you learn
to
> read, pickup a book on logic and look up Ad Hominum - the fallacy you
have just
> tried to use).
Don't you think painting the mini's shows a longer term commitment to the
hobby?
>If we use your logic, noone would want to play ANY boardgame at
> all that uses any form of counter.
Err, if you want to use unpainted minis, why not play a board game instead?
> Let me guess, you don't play monopoly with
> people unless people have a painted wheelbarrow to use as a playing
piece?
What a bizzare statement, what has minature wargaming got to do with a
*board* game based on capitalism?
> I
> personally wouldn't play against you with painted armies or not. Not
because
> you prefer painted minis - but because you are an asshole about it.
Just like I do not play against people with unpainted minis, but I am quite
happy to lend one of my painted armies if they want to play.
> We're here
> to play a game, not have someone else try to run our lives. What's your
next
> target, perhaps anyone using the wrong kind of trees for terrain is a
> homosexual?
All he is saying is that painting minis is *part* of the hobby, GW do not
let you use unpainted minis in their shops or at their events, where did
this lazy "don't need to paint no figures" attitude come from.
Don't give no lack of time bullshit either.
<soapbox>I work a 40+ hour week, study for a Maths Degree, play once a
week, make time for my wife and daughter and still manage to fit a few
hours a week painting in</soapbox>
Paul "Don't give a shit if you use unpainted figures, just don't tell me
its right" Scrivens-Smith
Big Daddy Rishar
>
> >Nah. We'll just keep putting pressure on the non-painters until they
> >conform.
>
> You will join the paint-nazis!!!! Resistance is futile!!!!
>
> *shakes head in disgust*
> I still can't believe people are this fucking stupid and pigheaded.
You missed the sticking-tongue-out-smily-face emoticon at the end of
that. Understandable -- it wasn't included in the quote. Oh, well.
Who was fucking stupid and pigheaded?
-- Con: Not me! Not me! Honest! Really!
Big Daddy Rishar
Yet another one who missed the point. Maybe if I switch to monosyllabic
words...
-- Con: think I found yer bot, Mer.
Big Daddy Rishar
> My personal response to this sort of behavior would be to bring a big can of
> spray solvent to the next game and hose down the obnoxious individual's lovingly
> painted army the first opportunity I got. My philosophy of life is that if you
> treat me like shit I will make sure to spread some on you if I can, and the sort
> of bellicose, rude, obnoxious treatment that people are suggesting sounds like
> just the sort of behavior that qualifies.
My personal response to getting my minis hosed with spray solvent would
be to kick the dogshit out of the offending individual and send him on
his way with said can of solvent lodged firmly in his colon. (If I was
in a good mood, I'd leave the cap on.) I've always thought of mini
destruction as a serious breech of etiquette, in the same neighborhood
as vomiting in someone else's car and spilling beer on the sofa. My
philosophy of life is that if you treat my property like shit, I will
treat you in an equal manner.
Now that we've both made our threats and are feeling much better about
the whole thing, let's continue.
> Bitching at people and being belligerant (whether regarding the quality of their
> painting or virtually anything else) usually only makes them mad. If you can't
> be polite and make reasoned arguments explaining why painted minis are more
> appropriate to the gaming environment then, IMHO, just shut the heck up. Nobody
> forces you to play with ANYONE. If you don't want to play against opponents
> with unpainted minis, then you don't have to. If you are REALLY hung up on the
> whole thing, ask your local gaming store or tournament host to specify that
> miniatures must be painted.
Who's putting pressure on anybody? I've never told anyone that I'd
shoot them if they didn't paint their minis. I've never threatened
anyone about it, physically or verbally. I've never made excuses as to
why they should paint their minis. All I've ever said is, "Get 'em
painted." I know full well that when you lean on someone to make them
do what they don't want to, they just get more stubborn. I don't feel
I've ever been anything BUT polite when dealing with others here.
(Assuming they don't behave impolitely to me.) I've always said the
same thing:
Paint your minis. Make an attempt. If you're short on time, get to it
when you can. Show some progress between games, even if it's only a
single fig. Do it as a favor to me.
Consequently, the only place I've really had trouble with this view is
here. I'm still trying to figure out just why that is. Everyone I've
ever seen RL has no problem painting. It may take them a while, and
they may not be good at it...and that doesn't matter to me. As long as
the effort is made.
You ARE right, though. If someone doesn't like my attitude (or I don't
like theirs), there's no reason for us to play together. The game's
supposed to be fun. For me, fun means painted minis. I don't care if I
win or lose -- even if you lose, it's still fun, and you learn from the
experience. Winning teaches you nothing. I DO care, though, that the
minis are painted. If that doesn't make sense, I ask you all this: what
sense does it make playing a wargame that's totally unrealistic and
involves dozens of little extremely-overpriced pieces of metal?
It doesn't make sense. We do it because we like it. (And because we
need something to bitch about here.) In the same vein, I want painted
minis because I like it. That won't make sense to anyone but me, but
hey...it's 40K. No one has to play me that doesn't want to.
-- Con: beginning to feel guilty for adding fuel to this. (But I'll be
damned if it ain't more fun than trolling.)
Blank Dave
You want 'em good lookin' we want 'em real looking. Besides, that way I
know where my human bomb's corpse is for later detonation
Blank Dave
Huron Blackheart
>
>
>>
>> everybody needs to make themselves feel good, usually at someone elses
>> expense, petty little men manufacture reasons to make themselves
>> believe they are better than someone else.
>>
>> Huron Blackheart
>> "The Knee Jerk Flame Troll and Last Bastion of Integrity."
>>
>Tell me "Huron", are you left handed? ;->
>
>Martin
>
ummm... WTF does that have to do with anything?
Huron Blackheart
"Apparently high and wide of the target."
Huron Blackheart
>Rellentles <relle...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>:>Nah. We'll just keep putting pressure on the non-painters until they
>:>conform.
>
>: You will join the paint-nazis!!!! Resistance is futile!!!!
>
>: *shakes head in disgust*
>: I still can't believe people are this fucking stupid and pigheaded.
>
>OK. If you are not painting your minis, then why use minis at all?
>Play the game with friggin cardboard chits. Same difference.
>Go play Squad Leader. Much better rules anyway. I say
>you're an idiot for paying hundreds of $ for minis for no reason.
>
>jfs
>
but it's easier when people don't paint their mini's... at least for
me it is... when they get tired of the game and sell off their
armies...
Huron Blackheart
"Home for unwanted figures everywhere."
Huron Blackheart
<jaso...@vic.ozland.net.ANTISPAM.au> wrote:
>Huron Blackheart wrote:
>>
>> On 8 Oct 1998 01:58:31 GMT, gho...@aol.com (Ghoull) wrote:
>>
>> > Yeah. And don't forget the famous correlation between RPGs and Satanism.
>> >Or the correlation between left-handedness and evil. Or the correlation between
>> >people who hang their toilet paper in an improper overhand fashion and
>> >bestiality.
>> >
>> > ---Ghoull
>>
>> but I'm right-handed and evil....
>>
>> Huron Blackheart
>> "Deviant"
>
>And left-handedness and homosexuality.
>
uh.... huh...
Huron Blackheart
* standing with his ass against the wall. *
Huron Blackheart
>In article <Pine.A41.4.05.981009...@asterix.uni-muenster.de>,
> "Oliver Booms" <bo...@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
>
>> Well, if that were correct all of us here would be able to paint to 'eavy
>> metal standard.
>
>I paint to a high 'Eavy Metal standard. By that, I mean that my finished work
>looks exactly like what the 'Eavy Metal team would produce if they were
>stoned out of their skulls.
>
>--
sometimes I think those boys have GOT to be stoned out of their
fucking skulls to put some of that shit in the magazine....
Huron Blackheart
"They might as well let their dog drink paint and then lick the
miniatures."
Huron Blackheart
some people DO like the game....
Huron Blackheart
-insert snappy line here-
Big Daddy Rishar
> What makes you sure it is an impossible act in his case. Recent studies
> show a direct correlation between Paint fanatics and people who fuck
> themselves regularly.
That was a clever remark. Were you up all night pondering this, or did
it just come spontaneously?
In all seriousness, this thread was starting to move toward the question
as to why people started getting personal about the whole thing rather
than discussing the topic at hand. I've always felt that in an argument
or debate of some sort, when the other side resorts to insulting
comments and childish remarks, it's a classic sign of defeat. OTOH,
I've also heard that every debate on Usenet inevitably ends in someone
making a reference to someone else with regards to Nazis, at which point
everyone else considers that person/group/side the loser, and in this
way threads that are getting out of hand are ended before they grow too
large. This rule doesn't appear to be in effect here, so I'm assuming
that the former doesn't apply, either.
-- Con: knowing the other old hands are going to flog him for this one.
(I'm surprised they didn't flog me for the last one.)
Edmund Metheny
wol...@htcomp.net wrote:
> > My personal response to this sort of behavior would be to bring a big can of
> > spray solvent to the next game and hose down the obnoxious individual's lovingly
> > painted army the first opportunity I got. My philosophy of life is that if you
> > treat me like shit I will make sure to spread some on you if I can, and the sort
> > of bellicose, rude, obnoxious treatment that people are suggesting sounds like
> > just the sort of behavior that qualifies
>
> Sounds like a good way to get yourself shot. I knowmore than one person who
> carries a pistol to tournaments.....
I won't respond to this particular comment save to reiterate my previously expressed
philosophy.
> If you don't want to play against opponents
> > with unpainted minis, then you don't have to. If you are REALLY hung up on the
> > whole thing, ask your local gaming store or tournament host to specify that
> > miniatures must be painted.
>
> Gee, every GW tournament or gaming store I have ever been in has a
> no-paint-no-play rule. So what tree do you live in?
Let me respond to this in two parts.
First, I realize that some tournaments require painted minis. However, I have seen
several tournaments in which minatures were not REQUIRED to be painted. Rather,
painting your miniatures gave you more points in the tournament, and the better your
paint job, the more points you got. I personally feel that this is a much better
solution to the problem than simply banning unpainted minis from tournaments, because
it means that new players can still enter (even if they can't win, which would be
unlikely anyway, given that they're new to the game).
Additionally, given the complaints people have been making about having to deal with
players who haven't painted their minis, it can only be assumed that said individuals
live in places where painted miniatures are not required in order to play at their
store/in their game club/at their local tournaments etc. If such armies were outright
banned, then they would never have to face them, and hence would not have any reason
to complain about fighting armies of unpainted minis.
Follow my train of thought here, big guy?
Personally, I have nothing against individuals who choose not to play with people who
don't paint their minis - it is, after all, your choice who you game with. What I
object to is the "Paint Nazi" attitude that seems to have permeated this discussion
(and yes, I have read the thread addressing the 'paint your miniatures' viewpoint
without being a Paint Nazi - I found it quite good). The idea of harassing players or
making their lives miserable because their idea of the hobby doesn't conform to yours
strikes me as ridiculous, arrogant, and damned stupid.
When I first got into the game, I played with unpainted minis. Having discovered in
High School art classes that I had no discernable talent with paint and a brush, I saw
no reason to disgrace myself further by making my minis look worse by painting them
than they would if I left them alone. With the help of some patient and understanding
opponents I was able to overcome my initial reluctance to paint, and now I have
several nicely painted armies (I also have a bunch of plastic beekies in a box in the
garage that I pull out for comparison on occasion - I'm not sure I could put paint on
a model that thickly today if I TRIED!).
But if I had encountered the level of outright hostility and belligerance from my
local gaming group when I got into the hobby that I am hearing here, the social
encounter would have ended badly for someone. What I've been reading here, the
suggested harassment, the nasty comments, and the overall rudeness, goes WAY beyond
any sort of socially tolerable behavior. Just lighten up, will you? If you are
absolutely dead set against playing an opponent with unpainted minis, you can say so
succinctly and go your way without engaging in any of the unpleasantness or harassment
that seems to be advocated by the "rabid pro-paint" crowd. I'll tell you, though -
the more you restrict your choice of opponents, the fewer games you'll play. If you
live in an area where there are hordes of opponents, or if you have a regular gaming
group, then you can pretty much pick and choose. If not, you either have to lower
your standards, or get used to playing 40K solo.
As for the tree I live in, your question shows your ignorance. You have only to check
the address to know the answer. It is, of course, the Coast Redwood, Seqoia
sempervirens. This is a very 40K tree, by the way, being huge, blocky and ancient.
Coast Redwoods are known to live for over 1,000 years as a single trunk, and what with
burl offshoot clones and regrowth after fire damage, the genetic history of some trees
are certainly many times that age. In fact, sempervirens means "ever living", just
like the Emperor. Just as the Emperor is very important to the Imperium, even though
he's the next best thing to dead, the biomass of downed redwood trees is very
important to the local ecology, playing host to ~3200 forms of invertebrate life, ~700
species of plants and fungi, and ~180 species of vertebrates.. Like the Imperium in
40K Coast Redwood groves have a very high accumulation of biological mass - 1,741 tons
per acre (higher even than the amazon rainforest). Coast Redwoods are also the
tallest living creatures on earth, some growing to over 360 feet in height.
I'm not exactly sure why you wanted to talk about trees, when the subject of the post
was miniature painting, but I have tried to steep my reply in terms that would be
interesting to you both in botanical terms and 40K terms (since I wasn't sure which
direction you were coming at the question from). If you want more information, please
feel free to write me, or start another post entitled "Giant Redwoods in 40K" or
something like that.
>
>
> Anyway,no one has every answered my question; is it just me, or is this just
> a problem with the fantasy crowd?
I'll answer your question. No. 40Kers are just as bad at not painting their minis as
the Fantasy folks. Around here, I think the 40K folks are even worse, in fact.
>
>
> Martin
>
> --
> "If I wanted to know anything about you I would
> divine it by examining your entrails!"
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
EM
--
Edmund M. Metheny
Arcata, CA
ICQ#: 3716119
AOL IM: Edmund6666
"For us of the minority, the opportunity to see geese
is more important than television, and the chance to find
a pasque-flower is a right as inalienable as free speech."
-Aldo Leopold
Edmund Metheny
Big Daddy Rishar wrote:
> Edmund Metheny wrote:
>
> > My personal response to this sort of behavior would be to bring a big can of
> > spray solvent to the next game and hose down the obnoxious individual's lovingly
> > painted army the first opportunity I got. My philosophy of life is that if you
> > treat me like shit I will make sure to spread some on you if I can, and the sort
> > of bellicose, rude, obnoxious treatment that people are suggesting sounds like
> > just the sort of behavior that qualifies.
>
> My personal response to getting my minis hosed with spray solvent would
> be to kick the dogshit out of the offending individual and send him on
> his way with said can of solvent lodged firmly in his colon. (If I was
> in a good mood, I'd leave the cap on.) I've always thought of mini
> destruction as a serious breech of etiquette, in the same neighborhood
> as vomiting in someone else's car and spilling beer on the sofa. My
> philosophy of life is that if you treat my property like shit, I will
> treat you in an equal manner.
>
> Now that we've both made our threats and are feeling much better about
> the whole thing, let's continue.
I won't respond to this other than to say that 1) I am not preaching unprovoked
assault on people's painted minis, and 2) I never want to come to a party at your
house, if that's how you treat guests who get sick on your carpet (JOKE! JOKE!! NO
KILL I!)
>
>
> > Bitching at people and being belligerant (whether regarding the quality of their
> > painting or virtually anything else) usually only makes them mad. If you can't
> > be polite and make reasoned arguments explaining why painted minis are more
> > appropriate to the gaming environment then, IMHO, just shut the heck up. Nobody
> > forces you to play with ANYONE. If you don't want to play against opponents
> > with unpainted minis, then you don't have to. If you are REALLY hung up on the
> > whole thing, ask your local gaming store or tournament host to specify that
> > miniatures must be painted.
>
> Who's putting pressure on anybody? I've never told anyone that I'd
> shoot them if they didn't paint their minis. I've never threatened
> anyone about it, physically or verbally. I've never made excuses as to
> why they should paint their minis. All I've ever said is, "Get 'em
> painted." I know full well that when you lean on someone to make them
> do what they don't want to, they just get more stubborn. I don't feel
> I've ever been anything BUT polite when dealing with others here.
> (Assuming they don't behave impolitely to me.) I've always said the
> same thing:
To answer your question, let me reply with the portion of wol...@htcomp.net's post
which set me off in the first place.Hmmm...nice way of putting it. Looks like the
only way to deal with theseguys who play with unpainted lead is to use peer preassure
on them. Keep
giving them hell untill they do SOMETHING.
Now, if you (you, in this case, being wol...@htcomp.net, not you Daddy Rishar) make my
life miserable enough by continuing to "give me hell" for any reason, eventually I am
going to get fed up with it. When I get fed up with it I am going to do something to
settle the score because that's the kind of guy I am. I suppose that if I were a
different kind of guy, I might simply quit gaming with your group, or give up on 40K
altogether.
I have NOTHING against you, or anyone else who chooses for your own reasons not to
game with me for whatever reason, be it unpainted miniatures, an army composition that
you don't like, or just dislike the curliness of my hair or my lack of accent
(everyone knows that Californians don't have accents - only the rest of the world
does). I don't even care if you choose to exclude me from some sort of event for not
having painted miniatures. But this "give them hell" stuff is uncalled for and
unnecessary.
> Paint your minis. Make an attempt. If you're short on time, get to it
> when you can. Show some progress between games, even if it's only a
> single fig. Do it as a favor to me.
The only people I do favors for is people I like. People who "put pressure" on me and
give me hell are not people I like, they're people that I consider targets for
repayment in kind. I understand that you (Daddy Rishar), don't treat people that way
(you indicated as much in your post) and I, for one, am willing to go the extra mile
for people who are nice to me, and who I enjoy gaming with.
Perhaps you would be willing to respond in kind? Whether you are alone or in a group,
it still takes you the same amount of time to paint your minis, so why not invite the
guy with the unpainted army over for an evening of painting? If he doesn't have
paints, or brushes let him use yours. If he's nervous, tell him you'll paint up one
of his minis for him, or give him some painting tips, or feed him dinner (it doesn't
have to be steak). Try to convey to him why you enjoy painting, why you enjoy using
painted miniatures, the satisfaction you get out of fielding a nicely painted army.
>
>
> Consequently, the only place I've really had trouble with this view is
> here. I'm still trying to figure out just why that is. Everyone I've
> ever seen RL has no problem painting. It may take them a while, and
> they may not be good at it...and that doesn't matter to me. As long as
> the effort is made.
>
> You ARE right, though. If someone doesn't like my attitude (or I don't
> like theirs), there's no reason for us to play together. The game's
> supposed to be fun. For me, fun means painted minis. I don't care if I
> win or lose -- even if you lose, it's still fun, and you learn from the
> experience. Winning teaches you nothing. I DO care, though, that the
> minis are painted. If that doesn't make sense, I ask you all this: what
> sense does it make playing a wargame that's totally unrealistic and
> involves dozens of little extremely-overpriced pieces of metal?
>
> It doesn't make sense. We do it because we like it. (And because we
> need something to bitch about here.) In the same vein, I want painted
> minis because I like it. That won't make sense to anyone but me, but
> hey...it's 40K. No one has to play me that doesn't want to.
>
> -- Con: beginning to feel guilty for adding fuel to this. (But I'll be
> damned if it ain't more fun than trolling.)
I didn't paint my minis for years. I believed myself to be artistically untalented,
and just felt the minis looked better unpainted than they ever would after I went
after them with a paintbrush. This DOESN'T mean, however, that I didn't think that
minis looked cooler than cardboard counters. The minis were vibrant, they had life,
they were dramatically posed. In short, they were exciting.
Just for a minute, take a half-dozen or so of your unpainted minis (c'mon, I know you
have to have some) and set them up on a table in some suitably 40Klike formation. Put
an upside-down cup and a couple of books on the table nearby to represent terrain.
Now, picture in your mind's eye what that little scene would look like on a Squad
Leader board (a half-squad counter next to a hill and a 1-hex building) [you can
substitute any other board game you are familiar with if you don't know ASL]. See the
difference? Even unpainted, using LAME terrain, there is far more visual appeal to
the minis than to the counter.
The reason that we use miniature figures is for visual appeal. It makes the game LOOK
cooler. Some people want the visual appeal of fully painted armies, and I can
understand that desire well. There is very little in this hobby to compare with those
final moments just before the game begins when two painted armies are laid out amid
painted terrain on the battlefield (except maybe blowing away Abbadon with your very
first lascannon shot of the game).
But some folks have lower expectations. If you give them some unpainted minis, some
shoes and books and cups and household stuff for terrain, they're perfectly happy.
Many MANY of the RT Cultists started out this way. Those who are still with us likely
now have wonderfully painted armies, but IMHO the absolute LAST thing that players
with unpainted armies need is to be harassed and browbeaten about it. Again, I
understand that this was not what you are suggesting, but it clearly WAS the intent of
the "keep giving them hell" post. And I just think that's wrong.
Now, here's an offer - if you don't treat me like shit, I won't treat you like shit,
and then we can all be happy and do what we want to do - play our damned expensive
hobby.
Agreed?
squigger
>
> jfs
I like the 3d, godlike qualities. I am also unemployed, so I have
plenty of time to paint, which I can do to a reasonable standard.
HOWEVER...
Were I employed, I doubt that I would have time to paint. In this case,
I would not. And I doubt that I would mind too much.
I like the miniatures because they are miniatures, not because of all
the pretty bright colours.
--
squigger
**** to reply, remove ANTISPAM from address
Please use tags in rec.games.miniatures.warhammer
My home page:
www2.ozland.net.au/jasonjob
I do indeed state the obvious - it's always the obvious that's
overlooked
squigger
Supposed study in America, lefthanders have a far greater chance of
being poofs than righthanders. The usual rubbish, but it seems to have
got people's notice and stuck.
woolaway
I like to play on a painted table with decent
> scenery, and nothing looks worse than someone who has an unpainted army
and is
> trying to convince me that a toilet roll is a Daemon Prince, fuck off.
an extreme version of that is paper miniatures- templates with what they
are supposed to be written on them
a guy turned up to my place with an army in a plastic sleeve, like the ones
that come in ring binding folders.
all bits of test pad paper
he won though. but i guess using paper has an advantage. it costs nothing
and you can have rediculously big armies.
tomb...@muskegon.com
csm...@spammers.can.kiss.my.pasty.white.butt.onramp.net (Clay Smith) wrote:
> This was an absolutely fantastic post! I could just add my name to it.
>
> Paint your troops. No excuses.
>
> Clay
>
I hate to admit it but Clay and all of the other "paint your minis" folks
have a point here. Now hear me out before you light up the flamers. Many of
us game because of the contact with people and the fun of competition. Hell,
thats why I do it. Part of the reason I like minis gaming is because it gives
me a chance to do something creative as well, namely painting minis. Now then
I may not be up to the "Clay Smith" Or "Britfan45" standard, but I would like
to think I do a pretty darn good job. Good enough for me anyway and I do try
to take the time and care to do a good job. I understand that not everyone
can get their minis painted due to time and personal constraints. Hell I
sympathize completely. I do freelance CAD work, go to college and help take
care of my 89 year old grandmother. That being said I still enjoy sitting
down with a brush and paint to do up my favorite minis when I can, which
hasn't been to often. I game with an informal "come as you are" group. These
folks don't scream about the unpainted minis. They all have "lives" outside
of gaming so they understand. And one other thing the quality level is all
over the place. One of the guys used to work at a hobby shop and had his
minis painted to 'eavy Metal standard. Mine is probably at the bottom of the
scale. There's no problem or discgrace associated with that. The only thing
is I feel a little bit weird sending my boys into battle with a half assed
paint job. My 15mm ACW figs look Damn good, so should my Ultramarines. I just
need to spend a little time detailing and finishing them up.
One last point that someone made already, I think the fantasy/Sci-fi crowd
does tend to be less concerned with weather their minis are painted or not. I
know from a refight of Day 1 at Gettysburg we did this spring I felt a little
self-conscious having to press some semi-painted Union troopers of Reynolds
Corps into service when I realized I would be a couple of stands short for my
brigade. Why? Well, as I said it just didn't seem right for my "boys" to go
into battle in such shoddy condition. Damn, these guys were fighting for the
Union, defending the flag, the Constitution and home from those damn rebels!
They deserved the best. I was going to my best for them on the field and they
deserved the best looking uniforms in the Union Army of the Potomac! When I
play with unpainted Ultramarines I feel a similar pull but not as strongly. I
want them to have a good paint job and I plan on giving it to them, unless I
decide to put them into service with the Gonzo Marines I'm doing, in which
case they will get different colors. My point is this: try, make a good,
solid effort to get your troopies painted and ready for battle. Do your best
job on them. As you paint more minis you will improve and they will look
loads better. Do what you can when you can. Get 'em assembled and de-flashed,
primed and the basis of a paint job on them and go from there. Ok light up
the flamers, I gots me Willie Peter for ya bastards right here! Just Kidding.
Tom Bryant
phoeni...@hotmail.com
> I would just like to add, judging by the below and by the number of
> replies, you are going to get flamed so badly you'll actually be able to
> find a use for the ceramic armour vehicle card. Let the flame war begin.
> oh, its already started.
>
> see ya,
>
> Ranger, bringing you common sense whatever the weather
>
> >Hey, if you want to play with unpainted armies, fine, they just look like
shit.
> >( I've done it in the past and mine looked like shit too ) I'm tired of all
the
> >" I don't have time...." whiney crap though. I just finished a 2000pt High
Elf
> >army ( and anybody who knows HE's knows how tough they are to paint ) in two
> >and a half weeks. That's Seaguard, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard, Reaver
> >Knights, a chariot, 2 bolt throwers, 2 mages and a converted general.......I
> >even had time to do a pillar of white fire for coruscation of finreir spell.
I
> >have a wife, a job, a 7 month old son etc..etc.... but it is possible. BTW
this
> >army also won me best painted army in a tournament last weekend with 25 other
> >gamers so it doesn't look like crap ( I couldn't play with crappy painted
> >miniatures, but that's just me.) I don't judge others painting as I sucked
> >before and understand that it is a learning process. I just think people
should
> >make more of an effort to paint. I like to play on a painted table with
decent
> >scenery, and nothing looks worse than someone who has an unpainted army and
is
> >trying to convince me that a toilet roll is a Daemon Prince, fuck off. Just
> >paint your mimiatures, take time if necessary, but don't show up every week
at
> >your store or wherever with the same unpainted crap.
> > Man, I must be in a bad mood or something.
> >
> >
> >"O God of battles! steel my soldiers' hearts"
> > -William Shakespeare's Henry V
*No actually this guy is the MAN. Hail thee who crusheth the nonpainting
ruffians! If you can't get the right mini (or at least come near it) then
DON'T buy it into your force jackasses!! Sure a meltagun could be a flamer.
Ok. But don't show up with 5000 pts. of unpainted eldar 5 weeks straight --
***For the love I cannot have Pain and power my balm and salve***
Blank Dave
in a group,
>it still takes you the same amount of time to paint your minis, so why not
invite the
>guy with the unpainted army over for an evening of painting? If he doesn't
have
>paints, or brushes let him use yours. If he's nervous, tell him you'll
paint up one
>of his minis for him, or give him some painting tips, or feed him dinner
(it doesn't
>have to be steak). Try to convey to him why you enjoy painting, why you
enjoy using
>painted miniatures, the satisfaction you get out of fielding a nicely
painted army.
I found painting to be infectious. I saw a friends painted stuff, and I
wanted to start painting. So once a week, I'll pack up my stuff and head
over to his house and we'ld talk, paint, build, watch flicks. Mind you the
cheap bastard never fed me :) But yeah he'ld sit down and tell me what I'm
doing wrong, and how to do it better, cheap tricks and what I was doing
right, or interestingly different.
>But some folks have lower expectations. If you give them some unpainted
minis, some
>shoes and books and cups and household stuff for terrain, they're perfectly
happy.
>Many MANY of the RT Cultists started out this way.
Hey!! We still like fighting around toilet paper and tape cases!
One of the Lloyds
<TiGgEr_...@bellsouth.net> writes
>
hurrah! Amen.
But really your bashing your bonce against the brickwork, the guys
around here like a good scrap and common sense and an acceptance for
others views won't get in the way of that.
I'm an "elitist gamer", by wich I mean I like fully painted armies,
great terrain and lots of nice background, but I don't expect others to
be the same as me. In fact, my most regular opponent is a crap painter,
would be quite happy with books as hills and so on. But we have a deal,
we always play on my fully flocked gaming table with its brilliant
terrain and I lend him an army, which suites us both fine.
So lets get together for a group hug and go and start a debate about
khorne termies or tech priests and graviton guns or something.
Of course, this debate will just sring up again in about 2 weeks, just
after the 3 GW sux flame wars and the 2 cheese flame wars and the 1
khorne termi debate (unless I'm mistaken were overdue).
see ya,
>I really see no reason to argue over painting .... not painting ...... to me
>it's a game/hobby. BUT It's my hobby and the way I see it noone can tell me
>or you what to do with it, I think it's that simple. Sometimes you guys
>sound like lil' kids, arguing over who has the best toy and why theirs is
>the best. I just don't understand ..... why argue over something that really
>boils down to personal choice? Am I missing something ..... have the
>gaming/hobby gods left me behind that I might actually enjoy myself with MY
>game/hobby? Sure there may be ppl who don't paint their armies and are
>powergamers but geez that doesn't mean that ppl who DO paint there minis
>aren't powergamers either. It's like mini racism or something. I dunno
>....... I just don't understand .... what makes some of you people so
>retentive about things so trivial like this? Why can't you just play the
>game and have fun like you're supposed to. I mean after all it was meant for
>entertainment, not a reason to lash out at ppl. I look at it like this .....
>I am into the game/hobby for my own enjoyment and I like to play other ppl
>..... BUT I don't like to play people who only want to win, that being their
>main reason to play, niether do I like to play people who are so elitist in
>the areas of rules,backgrounds,painting,non-painting,terrian,no-terrian that
>they limit my enjoyment of the game. To me if two or more of us can get
>together ..... play a game ... have fun .... and at the end of that game say
>"Wow .... that was a really good game of 'so and so', I really enjoyed
>playing with you guys!" that would be the greatest accomplishment and
>satisfaction I could get outta this game/hobby. - TiGgEr ..... who knows
>he's gonna get reamed for sharing his feelings ......... United we
>stand,...... divided we fall and spread the world of miniature gaming no
>more.
One of the Lloyds
writes
>squigger <jaso...@vic.ozland.net.ANTISPAM.au> wrote:
>
>: I've ignored this crap for months now, but it's gone too far...
>
>: What the fuck is wrong with you people? Wargaming is a hobby, not some
>: religion. There is no set way to do it. Some people cannot find the
>: time to paint their miniatures. They may or may not be able to pay
>: someone to do it, but why should they? The core of the hobby is
>: tactical wargaming on a tabletop, with either tokens or miniatures.
>
>Exactly. Then why are you so stupid to pay hundred of dollars for
>minis when cardboard chits would serve just as well? Or just buy
>the bases, and write the name of the troop?
>
>If the reason to use minis is not the esthetics of painting and
>making cool terrain, then pray tell why use minis at all?
>
>jfs
>
I don't know. I think its silly to, but I just say "your problem,
whatever you want to do, whatever makes you happy" and move on. I don't
try to tell then they _have_ to paint their models, which is what really
annoys me about the majority of pro painting guys here. Why is it nearly
every debate on this newsgroup involves at least one side telling others
what they have to do? Powergaming, GW sux....
I normally miss out the flame wars (hence a much reduced presence on the
newsgroup), but I haven't seen a good scrap in a long time, so I thought
I'd hang around.
see ya,
Ranger, who whilst likes to see a good scrap doesn't want to take part in it
One of the Lloyds
>Anyway,no one has every answered my question; is it just me, or is this just
>a problem with the fantasy crowd?
>
>
BTW, by fantasy I'm including fantasy and sci fi, because I assume you
want to compare it with historicals. On the other hand, if you mean
fantasy as opposed to sci-fi, then scrub the below answer, because I
don't think there is any difference.
Well, I'd say yes. Most historical gamers are adults (most, not all) and
as see painting as part of the hobby (most, not all). GW made fantasy
and sci fi games popular with the younger generation (of which I am one,
I'm not against young people playing), and as such the younger of the
younger generation would probably treat them more like toys. I think it
is really only people that grow to love the modelling and "behind the
scenes" side of wargaming who stay in the hobby, and those that don't
get into it _tend_ (not always) to drift out. I mean, if you don't like
painting models, making background and terrain, then why not play a
computer game? Its easier, cheaper, quicker... I see wargaming as a
hobby, and I think those that see it as a game tend to not stay with it
for very long. All that said, I have no problem with people who don't
paint models, or don't like background and so on (but I prefer to play
with like minded people). I was one once. Once upon a time I prefered
unpainted to painted because my painted ones looked so crap, but I
practiced and now I love painting and modelling. I was even a powergamer
once (in a very minor way, I liked a certain swooping hawk exarch with
lasblaster, fast shot...). I'm now an "elitest", but I hope not a snob.
see ya,
Ranger, always remembers his humble beginnings